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Microsoft Fined In India For Using "Money Power" Against Pirates

bhagwad writes "The Delhi High Court has found Microsoft guilty of using money and influence to make it expensive to defend against piracy cases. According to the judge, 'When the constitution of India provides equality before law, this equality has to be all pervasive and cannot be allowed to be diluted because of money power or lobbying power.' Furthermore, the judge said that Microsoft had to deposit a certain amount of money beforehand, and, if they lost the case, the money would go to the defendants for their legal and travel expenses. For icing on the cake, the court also appointed a commissioner to probe the matter further and ordered Microsoft to pay the costs. In an age where muscled corporations harass the ordinary person through expensive litigation, it's highly pleasurable to see them rapped for it by a judge."

48 of 204 comments (clear)

  1. Headline by Lemming+Mark · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Perhaps 'Using "Money Power" Against Suspected / Accused Pirates' or just plain "Against Defendants" would be more representative?

    1. Re:Headline by lwsimon · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Is "innocent until proven guilty" a tenet of Indian law? I'd imagine it is, but not sure.

      --
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    2. Re:Headline by CSHARP123 · · Score: 5, Informative

      Exactly, India adheres to principle of Innocent until proven Guilty. /. headline already calls the defendent Pirate. Judge Siding the pirate makes no sense. Judge has not ruled on the case yet. He is making an observation on the MS tactics of filing case in a different jurisdiction when they can file in the jurisdiction where the alleged infringment has happened. Commened the Judge for taking this stand. As usual, MS where ever they go, wouldn't change their lousy tactics.

    3. Re:Headline by Nefarious+Wheel · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Perhaps 'Using "Money Power" Against Suspected / Accused Pirates' or just plain "Against Defendants" would be more representative?

      Hmm... representative. I remember reading about what happened in the 18th century in several countries when the courts were used predominantly as a tool for the rich. There was a rather pronounced change in government in several countries, notably France and the USA. It was messy, and all that perfectly good tea went to waste.

      --
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    4. Re:Headline by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It's sad. They even view this as correct behavior in the U.S.

      It's a large part of the reason our justice system is broken with regard to the wealthy and powerful and corporations.
      It's a large part of how RIAA succeeds. They just sue you to death until you are out of money and can't defend yourself.

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    5. Re:Headline by digitig · · Score: 2, Funny

      It was messy, and all that perfectly good tea went to waste.

      We never sent our good tea to America!

      --
      Quidnam Latine loqui modo coepi?
    6. Re:Headline by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative
    7. Re:Headline by Dare+nMc · · Score: 2, Interesting

      well, it seams highly unlikely they could get this ummmm "deposit" back.
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_in_India#Judiciary Seams very likely this payment would guarantee the defendants never get their day in court, only bled out and locked up. While it is a admiral statement by the Judge, it probably is just like any politician the stated intent is exactly the opposite as the reality of the plan.

    8. Re:Headline by CannonballHead · · Score: 2, Funny

      Maybe that's why we threw it in the Atlantic and now vastly prefer coffee. ;)

    9. Re:Headline by westlake · · Score: 3, Informative

      Is "innocent until proven guilty" a tenet of Indian law? I'd imagine it is, but not sure.

      "Innocent until proven guilty" is a concept rooted in criminal law.

      We can know exactly when the maxim formally entered American law: through a Supreme Court decision of 1894, Coffin vs. U.S. A lower court had refused to instruct the jury that "The law presumes that persons charged with crime are innocent until they are proven by competent evidence to be guilty".

        Innocent Until Proven Guilty: The Origins of a Legal Maxim

      In American civil law, there is no such thing as a verdict of guilt or innocence. There is only a finding a fact for the plaintiff or defendant.

      You can, in all innocence, infringe on rights in real or intangible property.

      That doesn't mean the infringement can continue or you won't have to compensate the owner.

      The "prsumption of innocence" doesn't take you very far when it comes to the cold hard reality of a trial.

      There, the admissibility of evidence is what matters.

      The burden of proof.

    10. Re:Headline by blackpaw · · Score: 2, Funny

      You call that insipid watered down stuff you drink coffee?

    11. Re:Headline by lena_10326 · · Score: 2, Informative

      Most Americans don't drink hot tea (which is what Lipton is primarily identified with). But even still, haven't you been to the tea aisle in a US market lately? It's exploded with numerous varieties including imports. Lipton is 1 choice among dozens.

      --
      Camping on quad since 1996.
    12. Re:Headline by VJ42 · · Score: 2, Informative

      Indian law, like US law is based on British Common law (India being a former colony and all). The basic principles are likely to be very similar.

      --
      If I have nothing to hide, you have no reason to search me
    13. Re:Headline by locofungus · · Score: 3, Funny

      Not only did we not send our good tea, we used to tax them on it. It was no wonder they were unhappy.

      Eventually, we realized that this was a bit unfair so we stopped taxing it. This was an anathema to the Americans, "How dare the British NOT tax our tea" so they threw it all into the sea. "Take that you British scum, we WILL be taxed".

      The majority of the British, realizing that people who LIKED taxes were alien beyond comprehension (throwing good tea into the sea would also be incomprehensible but it's not clear whether or not the Americans realized that the tea they did discard was undrinkable anyway), quickly decided to kick them out of the Empire.

      This was not easy to do. The same people who if you say "Hey, we'd like to reduce the taxes you pay" scream "NOOOOOO!!!" are hardly likely to go quietly when you tell them "We'd like you out of the Empire" so "a cunning plan" was hatched. We'd pretend we didn't want them to go (actually dear George was a bit simple and it's suspected that he didn't have to pretend) and, with a bit of subterfuge and intrigue, we could get those "onion wearing, garlic eating frogs" to "help" get rid ^W^Wthem gain their independence.

      This has worked well, albeit for a brief 250 years, but it's starting to crumble. You now hear Americans using phrases like "cheese eating surrender monkeys" when talking about our close friends across the channel. Before you know it they'll be demanding lower taxes and heaven forbid that they might want to become the 55th member of the Commonwealth. Woe is me.

      Tim.

      Waiting with bated breath to see how this gets modded ;-)

      --
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  2. Too bad the US can't comprehend this concept by fdrebin · · Score: 4, Insightful
    In theory that's the way it is, but in practice, most of the time you need a lot of money to deal with legal matters.

    Too bad that lawsuits and prosecutions are about winning and losing, not about finding out the truth.

    /F

    --
    Stupidity... has a habit of getting its way.
    1. Re:Too bad the US can't comprehend this concept by L0rdJedi · · Score: 4, Interesting

      This sounds like "loser pays" which is similar to the UK. The concept being that the entity bringing the lawsuit ends up paying all court fees if they lose the battle. It has less to do with India being more Democratic and more to do with India setting up their system to keep people from bringing frivolous lawsuits. "Loser pays" keeps people from suing about every little thing since they end up having to pay if the suit is found to be without merit and hence they "lose".

    2. Re:Too bad the US can't comprehend this concept by phantomcircuit · · Score: 2, Interesting

      You can theoretically sue for legal expenses after you have successfully won the first case, but in reality most people don't because the burden of proof then lies on their shoulders. In order to win legal fees in the US you have to prove intent to harm.

    3. Re:Too bad the US can't comprehend this concept by paiute · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "Loser pays" also gives large corporations carte blanche to screw individuals.

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    4. Re:Too bad the US can't comprehend this concept by Lord+Ender · · Score: 3, Informative

      Our laws are complex. There simply is no simple, fair solution to solving legal disputes, unless we re-write the laws from scratch, toss away centuries of precedents, and stop legislatures from messing things up again. So... it's not gonna happen.

      The US system isn't fair because the better-funded legal team will simply have an advantage due to the unavoidable expenses in analyzing law and collecting evidence.

      "Loser pays" systems are not fair, either. If you sue someone for something they really did do, but you just can't find enough evidence to convince the jury of that reality, it's unfair to force you to pay that person's legal bills.

      One might imagine a system whereby both sides of a legal dispute must agree to use only the resources the poorer party can "reasonably" afford. But then there would be endless legal argument over what that amount is and how the rule is enforced!

      The fact of the matter is that justice is prohibitively expensive.

      --
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    5. Re:Too bad the US can't comprehend this concept by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Not a chance. Look at their caste system and how little representation the lower castes (millions of people) have. America is far from perfect but you are making an entirely unfair statement. Informative my ass.

    6. Re:Too bad the US can't comprehend this concept by NoYob · · Score: 5, Insightful

      "Loser pays" also gives large corporations carte blanche to screw individuals.

      Did your boss walk by or something? Please expand on that a little.

      I'll try.

      In a nutshell, big corp, no matter how much in the wrong the are, can wave in front of the 'little guy's" face that they'll keep him in court for years and if he loses, he'll be on the hook for millions of dollars in legal fees. I don't care how sure you are about your case, that's a huge disincentive to stick up for one's self. Now, add in the fact that the laws are skewed in the corporation's favor, it's a system that's ripe for even more abuse than we have now.

      Imagine the RIAA going after folks and saying that they could fight and not only have to pay their own legal bills but also the RIAA's if they lose. No one would even think about it. The EFF would have to become very selective of the cases it took - even more than they are now.

      And one last thing: there's a huge difference with an individual being stuck with the legal bills as opposed to a corporation. With a corporation, at least the big ones, they lose a lawsuit it's not a big deal - any legal costs an individual runs up they can pay out of their toilet paper budget. An individual loses and they're ruined.

      For a loser pays system, I would want restrictions placed on what a corporation can do - maybe even preventing them from collecting legal fees when litigating against an individual in a "loser pays" system.

      --
      It's NOT me! It's the meds! I'm on 1000mg of Fukitol.
    7. Re:Too bad the US can't comprehend this concept by AndersOSU · · Score: 4, Interesting

      not the OP

      But imagine you sue Microsoft for a small amount of money for, say, voiding your registration after updating a graphics card. MS, in their defense spends tens of thousands of dollars preparing to defend the case (this is not unrealistic, their corporate lawyers are already collecting a salary, now they're just billing their time against your case. Microsoft parades a few expert witnesses in front of the judge (or jury) and successfully confuses them. They rule against you - now you're on the hook for a huge legal bill.

      Loser pays disincentivizes bringing law suits against big players. That is not to say our system is necessarily preferable, both systems have their pros and cons.

    8. Re:Too bad the US can't comprehend this concept by plague3106 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Well, it would stop me from bringing a suit. Even though I feel I have a good case, and even if there are very good odds i'd win, there is no such thing as a sure thing and the threat of having to pay no only my laywer fees but the oppositions is enough to deter me.

      It wouldn't deter a major corporation though.

    9. Re:Too bad the US can't comprehend this concept by uglyduckling · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Way to miss the point! On a 'both parties pay' system, the little guy loses even when he/she wins - you can be sued for something completely unreasonable, and unless the court throws the case out summarily, it's going to cost a lot of money to defend yourself, so it's usually easier to settle. With a 'loser pays' system, well - obviously - the loser pays. That means that if the little guy is cetain he is right, it's worth giving it a shot if he thinks the court will understand the issue and he is likely to win. So if you win, you really win, unlike in the US system where you can win and still lose.

      Also, it's worth lawyers taking on cases which they think they are likely to win, because they know they will get their fees (which has led to a proliferation of "no win, no fee" lawyers in the UK). Presumably, under the US system, legal firms need to decide on the likelihood of their client being solvent, rather than the likelihood that they will win, again stacking the deck in favour of those with the money.

      Your issue about the restrictions on what a corporation can do - of course, in a 'loser pays' system, the opposition can't run up enormous legal bills and presume that the loser will pay them all. The court will award legal fees as part of the damages but that wouldn't mean covering the expenditure of the entire legal department of a big corporation for the duration of the case.

    10. Re:Too bad the US can't comprehend this concept by Dare+nMc · · Score: 2, Insightful

      . For instance, the Delhi High Court has a backlog of 466 years according to its chief justice.[1] This is despite the average processing time of four minutes and 55 seconds in the court.
      see MS will never see this money back, because the pirates will be locked up until their day in court (year 2455) awaiting trial.
      So if by democratic, you mean corporation and money wins, then yes this seams 400 years ahead of USA.

    11. Re:Too bad the US can't comprehend this concept by canajin56 · · Score: 4, Informative

      That's how it already works though. Judges can award attorneys fees, though they tend to reserve this for awarding large corporations their legal fees, not individuals. For example, a Fox reporter was fired because his boss told him "I like that bit about bovine growth hormones, but we're sponsored by Monsanto, so change your conclusion to say that it's perfectly harmless", and he refused to lie on TV. A judge held that not only does Fox have a right to fire for refusing to outright lie on TV, but he found the lawsuit so DISGUSTING of an assault on free speech that he awarded Fox 2 million to cover their legal fees.

      --
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    12. Re:Too bad the US can't comprehend this concept by Bios_Hakr · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I like the idea of "loser pays" until you need to file a suit against someone with unlimited resources. Personally, I'd like to see the method amended to only cover the cost of the lowest fees.

      In other words, if you sue me and you spend $1000/hour on legal, but I only spend $100/hour, I only have to reimburse you for $100/hour. If your total fees were $100,000 and mine were only $10,000, I'd have to pay you $10,000 in "loser pays" fees.

      --
      I'd rather you do it wrong, than for me to have to do it at all.
    13. Re:Too bad the US can't comprehend this concept by wirelessbuzzers · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Suppose that a faulty MegaCorp device burns Middle Class Joe's house to the ground. Joe tries to sue MegaCorp, but all he can afford is an average lawyer working on contingency. MegaCorp sends the dream team. If Joe wins, then MegaCorp has to pay him and his average lawyer. Sounds good: Joe gets more money. But if he loses, MegaCorp bankrupts him because even though his own lawyer is working on contingency, he has to pay MegaCorp's dream team. This provides a strong disincentive to bring suit.

      It's even worse if the defendant automatically pays when losing. In this case, if the MAFIAA sues you, you defend yourself and you lose, you'll have to pay not only the ridiculous statutory damages, but also attorney's fees.

      Of course, there are ways to fix this. The most obvious way is for the judge to have discretion on whether the loser pays, but caps on the fees might work almost as well.

      --
      I hereby place the above post in the public domain.
    14. Re:Too bad the US can't comprehend this concept by shadowofwind · · Score: 4, Interesting

      "Loser pays" also gives large corporations carte blanche to screw individuals.

      Yes you are undoubtedly correct. Case in point: when my wife and I sued Paypal, and the judge threw it out based on jurisdiction and on our supposedly having given up our right to sue in under any circumstances by signing Paypal's user agreement. It cost us less than $100 to file the suit. Had we had to pay for Paypal's lawyer, that would have prevented us from suing. And this wasn't a frivolous lawsuit - even that judge agreed that Paypal had clearly stolen our money, and their lawyer didn't dispute that either.

      In theory a case like this one should have been a criminal case rather than civil, but there isn't always someone interested in prosecuting, even when a crime has clearly been committed. (Another anecdotal example, though not involving a corporation: my grandfather died of a head injury under very strange circumstances, and the DMV agreed that the person who wound up with most of his assets had forged the title on his sports car. But my grandmother was unable to get a criminal case opened, even for a crime of that severity.)

      When the perpetrator is a corporation that can afford gazillion dollar lawyers, loser pays protects the corporation even when they are clearly guilty.

    15. Re:Too bad the US can't comprehend this concept by morgen_m · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The chief justice of India is one of the so called 'untouchables'. The president is a woman. The prime minister is from a religious minory, which requires men to wear turbans. The head of the ruling party is a foreign born woman. Now show me how America matches this diversity?

    16. Re:Too bad the US can't comprehend this concept by Caity · · Score: 2, Informative

      IAAL. More to the point, I am a litigation lawyer. We (Australia) also have the "loser pays" system (although the actual phrase is "costs follow the cause").

      Costs orders are discretionary. If a big corporation sues some little guy and the little guy loses, there is a good chance that the judge will not order him to pay the corporation's costs if the little guy had a reasonable, if ultimately unsuccesful, defence.

      Also, you will almost never get all your costs back (particularly if you've hired an expensive lawyer - like corporations do). Some things just aren't covered by the usual costs orders, and the costs have to be reasonable in all the circumstances of the case. If you spend big to win a small case, don't expect to get much of that back.

      In my jurisdiction, if you really shouldn't have carried on the case, or if you got a settlement offer that would have left you better off than the final judgment and you turned it down then, even if you won the case, you will get an indemnity costs order against you for all the other party's costs from the date of the offer. An indemnity costs order covers more things than a regular costs order.

      Costs orders are **fun**.

    17. Re:Too bad the US can't comprehend this concept by alexo · · Score: 2, Interesting

      In any sane implementation of a "loser pays" system, the loser is liable for "reasonable" costs (which may be less than the actual costs) as determined by a judge.

      In other words, if your opponent spent $1M on their defence, but the judge determined that a fair cost would be $2K, that's what you'd be on the hook for.

    18. Re:Too bad the US can't comprehend this concept by mhajicek · · Score: 2

      Interesting. Source please?

    19. Re:Too bad the US can't comprehend this concept by gmhowell · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I can find plenty of information about the firing of the reporters, but am having difficulty finding a succinct account of the subsequent lawsuit brought by the station against the reporter.

      --
      Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
  3. Jurisdictional Problem by phantomcircuit · · Score: 5, Informative

    This is entirely about jurisdiction. The copyright violations occurred in four cities, but microsoft filed suit in the capital. The judge is merely saying that if they insist on suing in the capital they must pay for the defendants travel expenses in the event microsoft loses.

    1. Re:Jurisdictional Problem by t0p · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I don't agree that this is just a jurisdictional matter. This is about the fact that the judge thinks Microsoft filed suit in the capital to make it too expensive for the defendants to contest the case.

      --
      http://ihatehate.wordpress.com
  4. Re:Very Poor Taste by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Was using the term "rapped" in the summary of the article necessary? It gets rather old watching the word used so flippantly. Good Job bhagwad, you just surpassed Kdawson as the worse /. editor.

    I don't think that word means what you think it means.

  5. Re:Very Poor Taste by interkin3tic · · Score: 4, Funny

    Was using the term "rapped" in the summary of the article necessary? It gets rather old watching the word used so flippantly. Good Job bhagwad, you just surpassed Kdawson as the worse /. editor.

    Ooooh! You rapped kdawson AND bhagwad there! Niiiiice!

  6. Re:Very Poor Taste by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Was using the term "rapped" in the summary of the article necessary? It gets rather old watching the word used so flippantly. Good Job bhagwad, you just surpassed Kdawson as the worse /. editor.

    CS-

    This is why spelling and reading comprehension are important in school. It is not just so that others can understand you. It is so that you can understand others.

  7. Not as it seems... by clone53421 · · Score: 4, Informative

    They were not “fined”.

    Delhi High Court has asked Microsoft Corporation to shell out Rs 800,000 ($16,000) for choosing to
    fight four copyright violation cases in the Indian capital even though they originated in other cities.

    ...but if you read on...

    Microsoft said it was fighting the cases in Delhi as it has its office in the national capital.

    But the court told Microsoft if it wanted the cases to be heard here, it would have to deposit a sum of Rs 200,000 per case - as a cost security.

    The amount will be kept with the registrar general of the Delhi High Court till the final disposal of the four cases. It will be given to the defendants if the cases are found to be false.

    It’s merely a deposit. If Microsoft wins, they get the money back.

    Also... $16,000? That’s pocket change to Microsoft. They’re probably laughing right now.

    --
    Alexander Peter Kristopeit bought his basement from his mommy for one dollar.
  8. Re:Very Poor Taste by Ethanol-fueled · · Score: 2, Informative

    You dumbass, they were referring to the rapping of the GAVEL.

  9. Re:Very Poor Taste by Cro+Magnon · · Score: 2, Funny

    Being rapped means to take a gentle blow, for example being rapped on the knuckles. Being raped, is well, being raped.

    We're talking about Microsoft. I'm sure many people here would like them getting the later punishment.

    --
    Slow down, cowboy! It has been 4 hours since you last posted. You must wait another few hours.
  10. Re:Very Poor Taste by natehoy · · Score: 3, Informative

    A "rap" is a sharp blow (like knocking on a door), or a sharp rebuke (criticism for some wrongdoing), or a criminal sentence for committing a crime. Context would imply the second meaning (a sharp rebuke).

    In the second meaning of this word, it's a perfectly appropriate usage for the circumstances. A judge issued a sharp rebuke, therefore he "rapped" Microsoft. I don't see how the usage is flippant, or frankly what's so horrible about the word that it would have a "flippant" usage. I won't cover the music that goes under the name "rap", because that IS too horrible to contemplate, but an Indian judge would use ragas anyway.

    Now, if the article had said that that judge "raped" Microsoft, I'd say that was a flippant usage of THAT word.

    Fortunately, that's not the word they used.

    --
    "This post contains words, known to the State of California to cause thought. Wash brain thoroughly after reading."
  11. Re:Im torn by mea37 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I don't see anything in that to be torn over.

    The court's ruling does not prevent MS from pursuing its claims, particularly if they are legitimate. It does say that MS cannot try to deny the defendants their right to a fair trial. Even a guilty party has that right.

    There is only a dilema if you believe you have reason to choose sides between the alleged pirates or MS. Why do you think you need to choose sides? If the alleged pirates are guilty, but also MS is trying to bully them, then both are wrong. On the other hand, while there is piracy in India, you don't know that these particular allegations are true.

    That's the point of a fair trial. The rules shouldn't favor either side, so there is no need to take a side. All you have to decide to evaluate the merits of this ruling, is whether it makes the playing field more level or less so.

  12. Re:Very Poor Taste by sexconker · · Score: 5, Funny

    Was using the term "rapped" in the summary of the article necessary? It gets rather old watching the word used so flippantly.

    A friend of mine made the same mistake many years ago. It was an English Literature class, and we had a group project where we had to stand up and present about various poetry.

    When it was his group's turn, they stood in front of the class and began talking about and reading the same poetry that we had all been required to read and discuss - making the entire exercise completely pointless.

    My friend was simply reading the poem allowed, from a printed copy when he committed the error.

    The teacher heard it, I heard it, and a (different) friend heard it. My friend and I shot each other a glance - a terrible mistake, because I believe we now both got ulcers from containing our laughter.

    My friend at the front of the class continued, blissfully unaware of his mistake. The teacher made no attempt to correct him. She either felt it was a lost cause, or was putting all of her effort into squelching her laughter.

    The blank stares from the rest of his group, who were standing at his side waiting for their turn to be over, and from the rest of the class confirmed that they either didn't notice, or that they thought it was correct.

    After the group was finished, the teacher quietly explained to my friend (who had committed the error) why we had been smirking, squirming in our seats, and frantically biting our tongues.

    He was reading "The Raven", by Edgar Alan Poe.

    For those unfamiliar...

    Once upon a midnight dreary, while I pondered weak and weary,
    Over many a quaint and curious volume of forgotten lore,
    While I nodded, nearly napping, suddenly there came a tapping,
    As of some one gently raping, raping at my chamber door.
    `'Tis some visitor,' I muttered, `tapping at my chamber door -
    Only this, and nothing more.'

  13. "pleasurable to see them rapped for it" by Culture20 · · Score: 3, Informative

    Pbbbhh... chi. Pbbbhh pbbbh chi. Pbbbhh... chi. P'pbbbhh pbbbh chi.
    Hoyee Hoyee Hoyee Hoyee
    The beat box is back on. Commence.

  14. Re:Oh Pleazzze... by Mister+Whirly · · Score: 2, Informative

    Yes, and Al Gore invented the internet.

    --
    "But this one goes to 11!"
  15. Re:India is sooo into equality by Laxitive · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I'm sure if you lend the Indians your time machine, they can go back in time and fix that issue. Until then, I guess they'll have to just live with outlawing caste discrimination in the constitution and then slowly working to change public attitudes.

    Or perhaps you've discovered a way to fix the issue with smug off-topic one-liners?

    Do tell. I eagerly await your insight into the issue.

    -Laxitive