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VMware Workstation vs. VirtualBox vs. Parallels

snydeq writes "InfoWorld's Randall Kennedy takes an in-depth look at VMware Workstation 7, VirtualBox 3.1, and Parallels Desktop 4, three technologies at the heart of 'the biggest shake-up for desktop virtualization in years.' The shake-up, which sees Microsoft's once promising Virtual PC off in the Windows 7 XP Mode weeds, has put VirtualBox — among the best free open source software available for Windows — out front as a general-purpose VM, filling the void left by VMware's move to make Workstation more appealing to developers and admins. Meanwhile, Parallels finally offers a Desktop for Windows on par with its Mac product, as well as Workstation 4 Extreme, which delivers near native performance for graphics, disk, and network I/O. 'There's some genuine innovation going on, especially in the areas of hardware support and application compatibility,' Kennedy writes. 'All support 32- and 64-bit Windows and Linux hosts and guests, and all have added compelling new VM management capabilities, ranging from automated snapshots to live VM migration.'"

289 comments

  1. Everyone forgets VMware server by drinking12many · · Score: 5, Insightful

    If cost is an issue why do these reviews forget the free VMWare Server it does most everything most users would need at no cost vs workstation

    1. Re:Everyone forgets VMware server by phantomcircuit · · Score: 5, Interesting

      It does not do accelerated 3d. That is clearly one of the main features for 'normal' users trying to play games in their VM.

    2. Re:Everyone forgets VMware server by gestalt_n_pepper · · Score: 0

      Agreed. We run a test automation farm of about 60 virtual machines using VMWare server. It rocks. I'm thinking of setting it up on a machine at home and running multiple Window's machines on it. Very, very cool technology.

      When it works

      Which it often doesn't. There are bugs in the Linux underpinning the application, bugs in the application, bugs in Windows, bugs in our application and bugs in the automated testing system used to test our application. Not just bugs, but daemons, and they're *not* well behaved.

      Every day is a new adventure! :)

      --
      Please do not read this sig. Thank you.
    3. Re:Everyone forgets VMware server by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      I wish I could forget VMware Server!

      One of their more recent releases went to a fucking horrible Web-based UI. I mean, they installed Java and Tomcat just so this terrible UI could be run. This major fuck-up on their part drove me to VirtualBox, and I haven't looked back.

      I've seen a lot of stupid web-based UIs in my time, but what they produced was beyond shitty. It often locked up for no reason, and when it worked, it wasn't even enjoyable to use.

      I sincerely hope that whoever came up with that idea got fired. They went from sleek, functional desktop application UI to an extraordinarily shitty web-based UI using AJAX. I still can't comprehend how that could have happened.

    4. Re:Everyone forgets VMware server by Bogtha · · Score: 5, Informative

      VMWare Server 1.x was great. For 2.x, they decided to ditch the native client in favour of an awful web interface that barely worked. That's one of the reasons why you don't hear many people singing its praises any more. It went from being useful to being absolutely horrible to use. VirtualBox is also free to use, it understands VMWare images, and it doesn't have that awful web interface.

      --
      Bogtha Bogtha Bogtha
    5. Re:Everyone forgets VMware server by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In the summary I read, they were comparing Desktop virtualization, not server.

      I know, how dare I RTFS.

    6. Re:Everyone forgets VMware server by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

      I had the same experience, but then I found out I can use the VMWare Infrastructure Client to connect to the machine running VMWare Server 2.0 (https://hostname:8333). Now it connects/manages/works nicely. It would be best if it was the VMWare-supported way of doing things, considering their terrible Web UI. My only problem with it is that you can't configure machines with the Infrastructure Client (which only supports v4 hardware) after you've modified them with the web client (which supports v7).

    7. Re:Everyone forgets VMware server by Zebra_X · · Score: 2, Informative

      This was true of the preview release of 2.0. It was horrible. However, the final version of the UI is fairly decent.

    8. Re:Everyone forgets VMware server by dlanod · · Score: 5, Insightful

      "Normal" users play games in their VM?

      Actually now that you raise that point, it's not as bizarre as it sounds. I was getting ready to ridicule it but giving Linux the ability to play Wine unsupported games and Windows 7 the ability to play WinXP-dependant games with decent performance may be one of the main consumer drivers of virtual machines. Though I'm not holding my breath on it being widespread just yet.

    9. Re:Everyone forgets VMware server by drinking12many · · Score: 1

      yes but just because it has server in the name doesnt mean it doesnt work just fine on a desktop machine.

    10. Re:Everyone forgets VMware server by Monkeedude1212 · · Score: 1

      It does not do accelerated 3d. That is clearly one of the main features for 'normal' users trying to play games in their VM.

      The only games I play on a VM are the ones too old to work on XP, designed for DOS and pre 95 windows.

      And believe me, they do not need accelerated 3d.

      Anyone who is able to launch a VM of whatever OS they want to play whatever game they want is probably better off just installing it on a seperate partition, because there's no sense in playing a game while running 2 operating systems at once.

    11. Re:Everyone forgets VMware server by csartanis · · Score: 2, Informative

      Use VMWare server 1.x You can get it through their website and they still patch it when security flaws are found.

    12. Re:Everyone forgets VMware server by drinking12many · · Score: 2

      Now thats a good trick. I did not know that and yes it appears to work great. Thanks

    13. Re:Everyone forgets VMware server by VGPowerlord · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately, a certain company offers some free games, but their DRM system doesn't work on Windows x64.

      This line-up includes 3D accelerated games.

      --
      GLaDOS for President 2016! "Well here we are again. It's always such a pleasure." -- GLaDOS, 2011
    14. Re:Everyone forgets VMware server by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Just one word ... Starforce.

      These DRM schemes have a good track record of hosing down your install. Near native on many games would make VM'ing the thing a no brainer.

      Each game on a branch off the main OS install.

      I have 1 game that flat out refuses to run on a dual proc machine. VM it...

      It solves a multitude of issues. That makes PC gaming suck.

    15. Re:Everyone forgets VMware server by FranTaylor · · Score: 1

      Or watching videos. I have a Windows XP VM on my Linux machine and Netflix movies play great on it.

    16. Re:Everyone forgets VMware server by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A "daemon" is an application that responds to requests...

    17. Re:Everyone forgets VMware server by AP31R0N · · Score: 2, Interesting

      If partitions can offer the same kind of flexibility as VMs then sure.

      With some VM systems, it is possible to have forks off a central VM. i could have MAIN, MAIN + GAME1, MAIN + GAME2.... If some super hard core LAN gamer wanted to do that they could end up with a dozens partitions... or one VM with several snapshots.

      Are there partitioning systems, or tricks with partitioning that might do something like that?

      --
      Utilizing the synergization of benchmark e-solutions to pre-workaround action items!
    18. Re:Everyone forgets VMware server by FranTaylor · · Score: 1

      There's no 3-D support. On a modern machine that is not "just fine".

    19. Re:Everyone forgets VMware server by NotBornYesterday · · Score: 1

      The only games I play on a VM are the ones too old to work on XP, designed for DOS and pre 95 windows.

      because there's no sense in playing a game while running 2 operating systems at once

      If the games you are playing in a VM are DOS / W95, the whole VM should take minimal CPU, memory, and graphics resources. On a modern multi-core multi-ghz PC with 2-4 gigs of RAM, I'd say that makes plenty of sense. One a quad-core x86, you should be able to run 10 old games in parallel W95 vms and still run each better than on an old sub-333mhz pentium the game was originally intended for.

      --
      I prefer rogues to imbeciles because they sometimes take a rest.
    20. Re:Everyone forgets VMware server by nxtw · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If cost is an issue why do these reviews forget the free VMWare Server it does most everything most users would need at no cost vs workstation

      VMware Player is also free, and as of version 3.0 includes the capability to create and edit virtual machines. It also has support for 3D, Unity (seamless mode), and Aero in Vista/7.

    21. Re:Everyone forgets VMware server by IgnoramusMaximus · · Score: 2, Informative

      No it isn't. Its the same dog-awful crap that they use in the Virtual Infrastructure Client and Virtual Center used with the ESX deployments. Sloooow, cumbersome, crashing, useless crap. Orders of magnitude more pain than the old 1.x interface. One of the main reasons (in addition to exorbitant costs, total mess with license management, constant wholesale re-branding of every component with every major release - Virtual "Sphere" anyone? - and the Virtual Center Linux non-support, etc, etc) why we are in the process of ditching VmWare at most of my clients.

    22. Re:Everyone forgets VMware server by drinking12many · · Score: 1

      I understand where your coming from but I figure thats probably less than a quarter of users of these products or doing it to run game. I just run a second windows partition for that so I get the full performance.

    23. Re:Everyone forgets VMware server by Monkeedude1212 · · Score: 1

      But why eat up twice the memory to run 2 Operating systems to run a graphicly intensive game instead of partitioning it and having a dual boot option?

    24. Re:Everyone forgets VMware server by gestalt_n_pepper · · Score: 1

      It's a *joke*

      --
      Please do not read this sig. Thank you.
    25. Re:Everyone forgets VMware server by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      dopey all videos flash and basic Desktop guis all use 3d acceleration to make them run smoothly.
      OpenGL, Direct3d or directx run like sh t in software acceleration

    26. Re:Everyone forgets VMware server by jasonwc · · Score: 5, Informative

      I just wanted to say that I have some experience with Virtualbox 3.1 and I disagree with the "ease-of-use" assessment of 7/10. I've played around with VMWare 7, Virtualbox, and VirtualPC, and Virtualbox is about as easy as a virtualization program can get. It has a simple GUI interface to setup your VM, provides sane settings by default, and allows lots of optimizations (like increasing # of cores used and 3D accel) easily.

      I'm currently running Ubuntu 9.10 x86 in Windows 7 Professional x64, sharing 4 CPUs and allocating 512 MB of RAM to the VM. The VM runs very well and starts up incredibly fast. I'm very happy with it. It was also dead easy to install. Virtualbox also has a huge array of support for OS's - pretty much every Linux flavor, all Windows verisons from DOS/Win 3.x to Win 7/2008 R2, OpenBSD, FreeBSD, BeOS, Haiku etc. See http://www.virtualbox.org/wiki/Guest_OSes for a full list.

      In addition, it has VT-x and AMD-V support, but it isn't required. But, the best part is that it is open source (there is a closed version with a few more features) and FREE.

      I didn't find Vmware as easy to use (rated 9/10). It was fine, just not easier than Virtualbox.

    27. Re:Everyone forgets VMware server by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why else run an 8-core desktop, with power to spare?

    28. Re:Everyone forgets VMware server by mabhatter654 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      With 4GB+ RAM and 4+ cores why not! ... the video cards now meet minimum SYSTEM requirements of only 2-3 years ago.

    29. Re:Everyone forgets VMware server by osu-neko · · Score: 1

      But why eat up twice the memory to run 2 Operating systems to run a graphicly intensive game instead of partitioning it and having a dual boot option?

      Habitual multitasking. Booting into the "other OS" prevents me from easily switch back and forth between the game and my usual browser, apps, plethora of addons, etc.

      --
      "Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies."
    30. Re:Everyone forgets VMware server by Monkeedude1212 · · Score: 1

      No, I think I get what you're saying, and you're right.

      But are you saying that there could be someone out there who is wanting to play multiple games at once, or rather - 3 positions in the same Game?

      That's intense. I feel inadequate now.

    31. Re:Everyone forgets VMware server by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      VMware server is a dog. Switch from it to VirtualBox about a year ago. Happy I did that.

      OTOH, VirtualBox hasn't been 100% stable, so I won't swap my Xen server farm out with it.

      We run ESX, ESXi, Xen, KVM, VMware-Workstation and VirtualBox where I work. Out of all these, VirtualBox has won the desktops and Xen has won the servers. We may switch to KVM when Ubuntu server 10.04 comes out - the Xen kernels have always been a little flaky to install, but once in are solid.

      As to ESX and ESXi, it feels like VMware is trying to prevent us from using these products in the way we like - MS-Windows-only clients? Come on. WSH scripting? Come on. We want php, python, perl and bash interfaces to VMware ESX-whatever. Pull your heads out VMware.

    32. Re:Everyone forgets VMware server by Baloo+Uriza · · Score: 1

      No cost != free.

      --
      Furries make the internet go.
    33. Re:Everyone forgets VMware server by AP31R0N · · Score: 1

      Not at once. One at a time.

      The idea is to have effectively... a clean install for each game.

      Build the core OS with everything you'll want to play *any* game (browser, audio and video drivers). Then have VM snapshot of that + the game you're installing. So in my case, i'd have MAIN + PlanetSide. It would be like having a separate, pristine system for each game. No iTunes or Google Services running in the background. Just a clean system running that one game.

      Wouldn't be worth the effort for 90% of the population or even 90% of gamers. But it would indeed rock the LAN party.

      --
      Utilizing the synergization of benchmark e-solutions to pre-workaround action items!
    34. Re:Everyone forgets VMware server by NotQuiteInsane · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Because with a dual-boot system, you have to reboot to switch between games and work. With a virtualised second OS, you just kill off (or suspend) the VM when you want to do some work again. Also, if you've suspended the VM, you can carry on right where you left off, no save-games necessary (which more often than not leave you at some arbitrary place in the level, rather than where you were when you saved).

      Maybe I'm just lazy...

    35. Re:Everyone forgets VMware server by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Even Remote Desktop was faster than VMWare Server 1.x's Client.

    36. Re:Everyone forgets VMware server by asdfghjklqwertyuiop · · Score: 1

      Not at all. I've used (or tried to use) several versions after it became "stable". The web interface was still complete garbage. I'm not sure what the point of the stupid web interface is anyway when you still need a native application (in the form of a browser plugin) to interact with the console.

    37. Re:Everyone forgets VMware server by negge · · Score: 1

      On the other hand, with VMWare Server 2.x, you can connect to the host machine using VMWare Infrastructure Client. It looks and feels just like connecting to a ESX/ESXi server.

    38. Re:Everyone forgets VMware server by PopeRatzo · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Booting into the "other OS" prevents me from easily switch back and forth between the game and my usual browser, apps, plethora of addons, etc.

      I worry about your attention span and quality of life if you can't even take some time to play a game without having to browse facebook at the same time.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    39. Re:Everyone forgets VMware server by MrCrassic · · Score: 1

      Last time I tried VMware Server (latest version), it was mostly web-based as opposed to its previous version which was more "together." It was also kind of a hog. Excellent for servers, terrible for workstations.

    40. Re:Everyone forgets VMware server by MrCrassic · · Score: 1

      I think the point behind that was to make it closer to their Infrastructure Client, which is a LOT more expensive. It's great for servers that are dedicated to cheap virtualization, but is terrible for workstations. That's not a big deal either, considering that it's really a server product and wasn't 'technically' meant to be used on the workstation, anyway.

    41. Re:Everyone forgets VMware server by slinches · · Score: 1

      If the VirtualBox "ease-of-use" score is changed to 9 the results look like this:

      Sun VirtualBox 3.1 - 8.9
      VMware Workstation 7 - 8.6
      Parallels Desktop 4 for Windows and Linux - 8.2

      Although, to be fair, only the open source edition of VirtualBox is free for unrestricted commercial use, which is missing a couple of features (USB and RDP support).

      --
      Knowledge Brings Fear
    42. Re:Everyone forgets VMware server by dave562 · · Score: 1

      The more things change... the more they stay the same. It sounds like going back to the old philosophy of having to have a separate boot disk for each game. I understand what you're saying though. The benefit of having a clean system with the bare minimum of services + the game is a good deal.

      I personally use virtual box to help some clients of mine in their OSX transitions. I'm not a big fan of OSX and I still run Windows on my personal computers, but I'm getting tired of cleaning up after other people. With virtual box they can have the clean experience of OSX and still run their applications, like Quickbooks. (Yes, I know there is a QuickBooks for OSX. No, it isn't the same product and it is lacking some key features.)

    43. Re:Everyone forgets VMware server by dave562 · · Score: 1

      I agree one hundred percent. I had been trying to get Virtual PC to work and even the simple task of mounting an .ISO image as the virtual CDROM was a headache. Having heard about VirtualBox here on /. I went ahead and downloaded it and got it up and running. I haven't looked back since.

    44. Re:Everyone forgets VMware server by somersault · · Score: 1

      It's just really annoying disrupting the flow of voice chats and the like if you have to reboot every time you go to play a game with your friends. You also have to wait extra time to startup, download patches etc, and all manner of little inconveniences that just add up to making it really annoying to dual boot if you are doing it regularly. If a game doesn't run in WINE but runs acceptably in a VM, that's great.

      Personally I just got fed up of all these stupid workarounds and have weaned my gaming habits onto consoles for the timebeing, so that I am free to run Linux without feeling that I am missing out when it comes to games. Without the need for maintaining a decent gaming rig I can also get by with much, much lower (and hence cheaper) hardware requirements. It doesn't stop me drooling over new AlienWare machines and the like though - I always have to remind myself I have no use for these things just now :)

      --
      which is totally what she said
    45. Re:Everyone forgets VMware server by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is also VMware Player which now has the capability of creating virtual machines.

    46. Re:Everyone forgets VMware server by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 1

      I seem to remember that the Parallels implementation uses some code from Wine, or maybe it's licensed from Cedega -- but it has exactly the same performance and compatibility issues as Wine on Linux.

      The only difference is that you've got an entire Windows installation, so it's a lot easier to deal with things like copy protection and weird DLL dependencies.

      But I would guess performance would be just slightly faster than Wine, especially for any Direct3D-accelerated stuff. (OpenGL would approach native.)

      --
      Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
    47. Re:Everyone forgets VMware server by pdbaby · · Score: 1

      If you want accelerated 3D for free then you want VMware Player 3. The only things it lacks are the advanced snapshots and replay features of Workstation.

      --
      Global symbol "$deity" requires explicit package name at line 2. - If only $scripture started "use strict;"
    48. Re:Everyone forgets VMware server by couchslug · · Score: 2, Informative

      I strongly agree!

      On Windows, "portable" Virtualbox is sweet and doesn't even require normal installation.

      I did a clean install to VM, then .rar'ed a copy as backup. If I have problems, I can easily replace both program files and VM in one shot.

      http://www.vbox.me/

      On Ubuntu, installing the PUEL version of Virtualbox was easy and allows me to try out other Linux distros and run XP for when I need that.

      --
      "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
    49. Re:Everyone forgets VMware server by pdbaby · · Score: 1

      It sounds like you want VMware Player... it's free and I find it a much more reliable virtualisation system than VirtualBox. It's effectively VMware Server without the ability to disconnect from the VM display (since they're trying to push people doing server virtualisation onto ESXi (and then onto their pricey products as a result).

      --
      Global symbol "$deity" requires explicit package name at line 2. - If only $scripture started "use strict;"
    50. Re:Everyone forgets VMware server by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      i installed virtualbox and accidentally formatted the hard drive it was on, and i don't mean the virtual one either

      i give it three out of five where the fuck are my files

    51. Re:Everyone forgets VMware server by rahvin112 · · Score: 1

      Vmware workstation is supposed to be able to play all DirectX 9.0c games. In my experience there are crashes but that this support does exist. This makes it possible to play a full blown copy of XP ontop of Linux with full game support which is quite impressive.

    52. Re:Everyone forgets VMware server by LarryWake · · Score: 2, Informative

      The full version is covered by the Personal Use and Evaluation License (PUEL), which technically speaking may be "restricted," but not very:

      "Personal use is when you install the product on one or more PCs yourself and you make use of it (or even your friend, sister and grandmother). It doesn't matter whether you just use it for fun or run your multi-million euro business with it. Also, if you install it on your work PC at some large company, this is still personal use. However, if you are an administrator and want to deploy it to the 500 desktops in your company, this would no longer qualify as personal use. Well, you could ask each of your 500 employees to install VirtualBox but don't you think we deserve some money in this case? We'd even assist you with any issue you might have."

    53. Re:Everyone forgets VMware server by ejasons · · Score: 1

      The idea is to have effectively... a clean install for each game.

      VMware Workstation has the concept of "linked clones", which would work well for this -- only the differences from the base use up any disk space. In fact, VMware Workstation allows a whole tree of snapshots and clones, any of which may be active. I don't believe the others support this.

      In fact, from what I've seen all of the VMware products (player, workstation, server, ESXi) use pretty much the same emulation engine, it's just that the frontends don't always support all of the features. Often, one can get some of the features anyway, by editing the "vmx" or "vmdk" files (and there are resources on the intraweb for making this easier).

      To me, the killer feature of the non-opensource VirtualBox is its ability to expose an RDP server, which seems to work considerably better than the VNC server that VMware supports...

    54. Re:Everyone forgets VMware server by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Amen.

    55. Re:Everyone forgets VMware server by Hurricane78 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Well, you can even create multiple snapshots, and so if you have to make a big descision in a game, you can actually choose to go both ways! I call that a great function! :)

      If only VMs weren’t so horribly slow.

      --
      Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
    56. Re:Everyone forgets VMware server by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Does starforce work in vmware now? Last time I tried, it wouldn't. In fact, the protection specifically checks to see if you're running in a VM and aborts out with an error if you are.

      Qemu in full emulation mode was enough to fool it though. Of course, then it's too slow and with no 3D support, the protected game is unplayable.

      As always, the solution is a cracked executable...

    57. Re:Everyone forgets VMware server by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Newer motherboards have no support for old operating systems like Win95/98. Driver support was dropped years ago.

    58. Re:Everyone forgets VMware server by IgnoramusMaximus · · Score: 1

      Even Remote Desktop was faster than VMWare Server 1.x's Client.

      On a remote connection RDP will always be faster than a virtual remote console, mainly because RDP can optimize transfers based on Windows GDI API calls while a universal console has no such luxury and has to treat the entire screen as one monolithic item. Having said that, the post-1.x "web" interface crap is far slower then 1.x even accessed locally due to idiotic technology choices.

    59. Re:Everyone forgets VMware server by Runaway1956 · · Score: 1

      I used VMWare first. Dabbled with Parallels, and went back to VMWare. They're pretty darned good. Then, I read an article on the philosophies of the competing virtualization teams, which lead me to google around for more.

      Everyone, whether in research, or whatever, has a basic philosophy in their approach. You can't avoid it - even those who don't realize that they have one.

      Anyway - VMWare seeks to do most of their work in software, whereas VBox seeks to make the hardware do most of the work. And, it makes sense. Why convert ANYTHING from one format to another, when the VM can be allowed to communicate directly with the hardware? If/when reformatting any data is necessary, keep it to the absolute minimum.

      IMHO, at the time I switched to VBox, the hardware philosophy beat the software philosophy by a decent margin. As time goes on, I expect that margin to grow.

      Am I right, or am I wrong? Only time will tell. For the time being, I'm very happy with VirtualBox 3.10 and I'll probably not change unless I hear of something happening elsewhere.

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    60. Re:Everyone forgets VMware server by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      After wrestling with the borked Java and Tomcat crap, I ended up finding that VMWare server 2.x is more trouble than its worth. Its not like EMC doesn't know their stuff, as VMWare Workstation is very good, if you can afford the licenses.

      For a hypervisor for most people, I'd go with VirtualBox for most things. VirtualPC is also very good for a lot of tasks, and if you have Windows 7, a Windows XP VM is two downloads (XP image and VirtualPC) away.

      Server-wise, believe it or not, Hyper-V is better than people think. Yes, it requires hardware support, but it does a great job at virtualizing stuff with a relatively low performance penalty. If I were doing a dedicated Windows solution, I'd probably go with that.

      Of course, don't forget Xen. People don't mention it much, but it likely will end up a hard hitter too.

    61. Re:Everyone forgets VMware server by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I totally agree with the V2.x web interFARCE. That is the sole reason I RAN from VMWare.

    62. Re:Everyone forgets VMware server by etrading76 · · Score: 0, Offtopic

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    63. Re:Everyone forgets VMware server by jasonwc · · Score: 1

      I can't even understand how you could conceivably do this? Where does Virtualbox give you an option to format your host hard drive? It allows you to delete virtual disks - and only then after a warning. WTF did you do?

    64. Re:Everyone forgets VMware server by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is the truth
      I was an avid lover of vmware for years
      when it was a proper application built on a coded install it was rock solid and had incredibly good performance
      I used to have solaris, xp, and linux boxes all running at the same time
      their new "java" foundation is a bloated nasty piece of crap. I checked my ram, vmware was using 300 megs of my ram without even a machine running.

      I switched to virtualbox, and I've been happy.
      Sux when something works great then they putz with it.

    65. Re:Everyone forgets VMware server by evilviper · · Score: 1

      This was true of the preview release of 2.0. It was horrible. However, the final version of the UI is fairly decent.

      Bullshit!

      Downloaded and installed TODAY, on a nice fresh RHEL5.4 system. Spent half the day trying to get the web interface minimally working, and explaining to my boss why it doesn't work worth a crap.

      Open a browser to the HTTPS URL... empty page.
      Type the URL of the insecure webpage, get redirected to the secure page, but this time far enough for a login.
      Type username/pass, get about half the web interface loaded before the connection craps out.
      Hit reload 20=30 times before it decides to actually work.
      Click on CREATE VIRTUAL MACHINE... Click through a few dialogs, then error out because the path to the image datastore hasn't been passed from the config app correctly.
      Finally get through that idiocy, and start up the virtual machine, only to find there's no input or display... "Console" section of the menu has NOTHING under it... Curse a lot.
      Switch to a different machine (running the same version of Firefox), about the same level of senselessness getting the UI to load.
      Start virtual machine, but note in amazement that this time, you actually have a Console tab... Install a nasty huge plugin, note the terrible performance, but at least you get a screen.

      Of course this convoluted manual process requires 10,000 steps, and offers NOTHING over the VMWare Server 1.0.x interface (except nightmares).

      Even with VMWare-Server1 up and working, there's loads of compatibility hacks needed to get a real system migrated over, or even a just slightly non-standard damn CD to boot. Meanwhile, QEMU is open source, and just works out of the box, and does exactly what you tell it to, and no more...

      VMWare was only ever good when it was the only game in town. Once there was a freer knock-off, reality demonstrated all the VMWare issues weren't inherent, just poor programming and design. These days it survives on having a just slightly more mature high-end product, and most of all, name recognition by the clueless.

      --
      Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
    66. Re:Everyone forgets VMware server by Edwards1984 · · Score: 0

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    67. Re:Everyone forgets VMware server by smash · · Score: 1

      Because 4gb of RAM is about 80 bucks, and rebooting sucks.

      --
      I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
    68. Re:Everyone forgets VMware server by log0n · · Score: 0, Troll

      I worry about your attention span and quality of life if you can't successfully multitask.

    69. Re:Everyone forgets VMware server by smash · · Score: 1

      VMWare was only ever good when it was the only game in town.

      Disagree. On the desktop, yes - Virtualbox and others have caught up to workstation. On servers with ESX? Haha... no one is even close.

      Vmware FT, Vmotion, DRS, Storage vmotion, linked clones, templates - no one has them all, and they're all extremely useful.

      disclaimer: i run ESX 4 and Workstation 7 at work - and Workstation 7 / Virtualbox (on the mac) at home...

      --
      I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
    70. Re:Everyone forgets VMware server by paradxum · · Score: 1

      I have to agree with the parent. I had used VMWare server for a few years and had always had strange issues crop up.... Ease of use really sucked when they went to the web interface (although it was a great Idea, it just didn't always work.) USB support in vmware was barely usable (sometimes the vm would just lock up.)

      I moved over to virtualbox and everything just seems to work. Dead simple install and use.

    71. Re:Everyone forgets VMware server by Trahloc · · Score: 1

      While you find it as odd that people would run a vm, I think it just as odd that you question it. Having instant access to your real desktop for a few fps hit is worth it. If your playing a game thats a few years old and you have anything close to a modern video card you've got enough hardware to make it not really matter. And even if you don't, ram is so cheap these days that 'double the memory' is meaningless. I don't have the luxury to devote the time I want to playing games anymore but they're the whole reason I learned to fix my computer in the first place. Since I already have multiple monitors for working on multiple tasks I can see the status of my shell windows and incoming emails while playing games. So yeah, VM gaming is awesome, have my fun and then be a professional 1/2 second later when a client needs something fixed.

      --
      The Goal: A long simple life filled with many complex toys.
    72. Re:Everyone forgets VMware server by Trahloc · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Be a living example of why helpdocs have to be written as if your 80 year old grandmother was the target audience.

      --
      The Goal: A long simple life filled with many complex toys.
    73. Re:Everyone forgets VMware server by evilviper · · Score: 1

      XenServer, at least, has their own variations on all the features you've listed.

      --
      Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
    74. Re:Everyone forgets VMware server by uninformedLuddite · · Score: 1

      there's no sense in playing a game while running 2 operating systems at once.

      Why not? Please explain?

      --
      The new right fascists are bilingual. They speak English and Bullshit.
    75. Re:Everyone forgets VMware server by uninformedLuddite · · Score: 1

      VirtualBox is also free to use, it understands VMWare images

      and it is a fantastic and efficient virtual machine as well.

      --
      The new right fascists are bilingual. They speak English and Bullshit.
    76. Re:Everyone forgets VMware server by a8ksh4 · · Score: 1

      Same here; I've found VirtualBox to be as easy to use as VMWare server. It's actually much easier to install in Linux and has been much more (perfectly) stable, while VMWare used to crash on me and do random weird stuff.

      Also, I've found that it's virtualized hardware is better supported w/ newer OSs like Vista and Win 7. For example, with VMWare server, I have to update service packs and use their guest enhancements CD for ethernet driver support, but this is not an issue with VirtualBox.

      BTW: At home, I live in Linux at home but use VMs to run office apps for school and for compatibility with work stuff; at work, I use virtualization for OS validation (Windows and Linux).

    77. Re:Everyone forgets VMware server by MrNiCeGUi · · Score: 1

      If you would have read the article, you would have seen that in fact VirtualBox supports branching snapshots, which are pretty much the same thing as linked clones.

    78. Re:Everyone forgets VMware server by Spliffster · · Score: 1

      Oh and another one:

      I am a long time user and customer of VMWare products. But for my desktop virtualisation (and more and more non system critical servers) i am moving to virtualbox, why?

      My host system is linux and Virtualbox is compiling the needed kernel modules through the package manager automagically on updates, i have to do this for vmware server by hand, every fucking time. And this is often, since i prefer patched servers so new kernels are going ins ASAP.

      Cheers,
      -S

    79. Re:Everyone forgets VMware server by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      If you use PC for gaming and work together you don't need 3d in a VM. Just install gaming system and virtualize the one you use for work. It also makes it much easier to save and backup work data. Why everyone forgets this scenario?

    80. Re:Everyone forgets VMware server by bakes · · Score: 1

      Doesn't the newest version of the VI client (with vSphere 4.0) allow this?

      --
      Ho! Haha! Guard! Turn! Parry! Dodge! Spin! Ha! Thrust!
    81. Re:Everyone forgets VMware server by terryducks · · Score: 1

      I've looked into VMware for hosting a couple of Windows sessions for development.

      They really need to get their head out of their ass (fragin tossers). Give me a roadmap of products to install for X, Y & Z. Development path x - run on a single machine (you need to install a,b &c configure like this - tada) Development path Y - run on another host - (install d,e & f - configure = tada)

      I can't figure out what I need due to bad naming and "huge" number of products.

    82. Re:Everyone forgets VMware server by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      talking about consumer drivers?
      just think about it: 3D pron!

    83. Re:Everyone forgets VMware server by Risen888 · · Score: 1

      Actually (and I know I'm an outlier) you just nailed my reason for continuing to dual-boot even though I know there are other, and in many ways better options. If I don't have the option of jumping over to Civ IV at a moment's notice I get a hell of a lot more work done :)

      --
      Hey, I finally got my first freak! Took you long enough!
    84. Re:Everyone forgets VMware server by Monkeedude1212 · · Score: 1

      If my intent were to be to play 1 game, I would want all my resources dedicated to that one game.

      Running two operating systems at once taxes the machines of its resources.

    85. Re:Everyone forgets VMware server by TomXP411 · · Score: 1

      Actually, VMWare Viewer is free, too, and you can EDIT and CREATE VM's with it now. When VMWare updated Workstation to the new version (and wanted to charge me another $100 for it), I actually "downgraded" from Workstation to Viewer, and it works great! It even fixed the problems related to SpeedStep (the UI would be unresponsive while the CPU was slowed down.) So now, VirtualBox and VMWare Viewer are pretty much dead-even in terms of features. But VirtualBox is very buggy, where VMWare has always been rock-solid for me (with the exception of the SpeedStep problem, which was actually a problem on all the hypervisors.)

    86. Re:Everyone forgets VMware server by TomXP411 · · Score: 1

      That's funny, because when I get a coupon for a FREE something, it usually means I don't pay for it. 99% of users make no distinction between FOSS and $0 COTS, since they're never going to bust open a source editor and fix a bug. Those that do are more than happy to choose the FOSS version - bugs and all (And I've tried 3 releases of VBox and had to give up on all of them due to bugs or major incompatibilities). However, even the VirtualBox license isn't Free as in "Unencumbered". The version of VirtualBox that includes USB support, something that's essential these days, is not free in terms of source code OR money.

    87. Re:Everyone forgets VMware server by Baloo+Uriza · · Score: 1

      Look, if you want to drink the free beer, go right ahead, but don't go acting like it's the morally responsible thing to do. And certainly don't encourage it.

      --
      Furries make the internet go.
    88. Re:Everyone forgets VMware server by TheLink · · Score: 1

      Which part of using vmware was not as easy as virtualbox for you?

      Here's my experience:

      vmware server doesn't have signed drivers so I had problems getting it to work with Windows 7 x64. I didn't try vmware workstation - it's not free.

      In contrast Virtual Box worked, and it was free.

      Microsoft Virtual PC on the other hand wouldn't even let me boot up ubuntu after an install - got all the way past installation, but on boot to the installed OS it couldn't start up - not surprised though, I generally regard Virtual PC as crap (but perhaps it works very well running MS only stuff).

      However Virtual Box is not as good as vmware if you are going to have virtual networks and muck about with them. With vmware changing the networks a virtual interface is attached to is easy - you can do it while the virtual machine is running.

      Also, Virtual Box virtual machines don't seem to be stored all in one folder. A single virtual machine is stored in more than one directory - there's one path for the disks and another path for the other stuff. In contrast with vmware, it's all in one directory, so you can just copy the entire directory/folder and/or compress it.

      vmware's "get out of virtual machine" keys are customizable combinations of ctrl-shift-alt (can be all, or partial).
      virtual box's equivalent is the "host key", you can have many choices but you can only use one key - not a combo.

      I have not tested what happens on virtualbox if the host screen saver locks while you are still in the guest. IIRC vmware used to have problems with that in some cases (you can't get out).

      Lastly you can't run virtualbox and virtualpc at the same time. Fortunately you don't have to reboot - if you stop virtualpc, after a while you can run virtualbox.

      --
    89. Re:Everyone forgets VMware server by Deosyne · · Score: 1

      Depends on the game. On my Core i7 box with 8 GB of RAM, there aren't too many games out there that require the undivided attention of my computer, or even a significant fraction of its attention. Especially any game that I would consider running in a VM.

    90. Re:Everyone forgets VMware server by Deosyne · · Score: 1

      Free beer is not only morally responsible, it's a moral imperative!

    91. Re:Everyone forgets VMware server by TomXP411 · · Score: 1

      What's "moral responsability" got to do with it? VMWare makes a great product, and I was happy to pay for Workstation when I badly needed a stable hypervisor with USB support. There were NO other Windows-based Hypervisors at the time that worked. And quite frankly, if I hadn't discovered that Viewer 3 lets you create and edit VM's, I would have spent the $100 to upgrade to VMWare Workstation 7. VirtualBox is a piece of junk that's never worked for me, despite the fact that I've tried several times, and I'm no idiot. If that's the state of "Free as in Speech" virtualization, the give me the beer. I have a job to do, and that's a lot more important than some hypothetical argument over whether code wants to be free. (Then, of course, there's the whole issue about my company not allowing me to use FOSS for security reasons. I don't agree with that stance, but I don't make the rules.)

    92. Re:Everyone forgets VMware server by Baloo+Uriza · · Score: 1

      No, free speech is. You got it backwards.

      --
      Furries make the internet go.
    93. Re:Everyone forgets VMware server by tepples · · Score: 1

      Because 4gb of RAM is about 80 bucks

      If your PC's motherboard is new enough, and if the "outer" operating system has 64-bit drivers for your hardware.

    94. Re:Everyone forgets VMware server by jasonwc · · Score: 1

      You're on Windows 7 so you're using VirtualPC 2010 which supports XP Mode. MS removed Hyper-V, so now VirtualPC has no support for Linux/Unix based-OS's. If you were on XP, you would have VirtualPC 2007 which can be used to install Linux. I know Ubuntu 8.10 worked on VirtualPC 2007. So, you have to specify which version you're using.

      As for VMWare server. I installed 2.0.2 on Windows 7 x64 without issue. Did it complain about unsigned drivers during the install process, or simply fail to work? The install seemingly went fine here. I see two new VMWare network adapaters, which presumably required the installation of a driver.

    95. Re:Everyone forgets VMware server by smash · · Score: 1

      They're close. They have almost all of the features of ESX, but not quite yet. Definitely way in front of hyper-v.

      --
      I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
    96. Re:Everyone forgets VMware server by uninformedLuddite · · Score: 1

      That would limit my ability to watch family guy, compile a kernel(why do ppl climb Mt Everest?), and frag aliens all at the same time.

      --
      The new right fascists are bilingual. They speak English and Bullshit.
    97. Re:Everyone forgets VMware server by uninformedLuddite · · Score: 1

      I'm getting my i7 and new Mobo in 3 weeks time. Will of course be running Win7(haven't even seen it yet). is that much memory normal? or is it overkill for the average user? I only ask as DDR3 is just so damned cheap at the moment.

      --
      The new right fascists are bilingual. They speak English and Bullshit.
    98. Re:Everyone forgets VMware server by Anomylous+Howard · · Score: 1

      So what's the diff between VMware server and Player? All of VMware's shifting products confuse me. VirtualBox won't let me start a VM from the GUI and close the the GUI while the VM continues to run in the background. I can't come back later and reconnect to the console. That sucks!

  2. VirtualBox lost... by anss123 · · Score: 1

    but crawled onto second place for being free. I think cost should be kept out of reviews, instead tell what you think of the product - as it is - then the reader can decide for himself if the price is worth the extras.

    1. Re:VirtualBox lost... by Hatta · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Free has nothing to do with cost. It's free as in freedom, which is an important feature to many.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    2. Re:VirtualBox lost... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Right, 2nd place because of cost alone:

      With support for up to 32 virtual CPUs per VM, VirtualBox is now the class leader in terms of raw virtualization muscle. The introduction of branched snapshots is a major usability upgrade from version 3.0, while the new Teleportation feature (live VM migration) means that VirtualBox is now poised to challenge VMware and Microsoft in the datacenter.

    3. Re:VirtualBox lost... by drinking12many · · Score: 2, Informative

      I agree and that was my point. IF cost is an issue it should be included. If your just looking for the best product it shouldnt even be mentioned. We use the free VMware server in our patch test environment as its a free and it performs pretty well. I have some complaints about the UI as the guy does above but its functional 95% of the time with limited headache. Production side we use ESX but the costs of that just didnt make sense for a test environment for workstation patches.

    4. Re:VirtualBox lost... by hrimhari · · Score: 1

      Being free is a relevant "feature" for many people. If it should be removed because it means nothing to you, then heck, remove any 3D acceleration support from it too because I don't need it.

      --
      http://dilbert.com/2010-12-13
    5. Re:VirtualBox lost... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What about VMware ESXi on a cheap 1U server? I've got one running ESXi 4.0 and the best part was it was free...

    6. Re:VirtualBox lost... by drinking12many · · Score: 1

      as im sure you know ESXi has very strict hardware requirements and I could be wrong but I believe you still need the VMware infrastructure server for it to work correctly right?

    7. Re:VirtualBox lost... by dlanod · · Score: 1

      The arbitrary "placing" of products is one of the more annoying features of these reviews. The better ones just outline the competitive differences and deficiencies of the products and let a knowledgeable user determine which fits their needs (value for money potentially being one of those needs), and then follow it up with corresponding information on how to determine which fits their needs for those less knowledgeable.

    8. Re:VirtualBox lost... by pacman+on+prozac · · Score: 1

      I believe you only need the infrastructure server if you want Virtual Center (to manage a load of ESX boxes from a central point), you can manage standalone ESXi boxes individually via their web interfaces.

    9. Re:VirtualBox lost... by LWATCDR · · Score: 5, Insightful

      That is one way to look at it.
      I have used Virtual Box and I find that it getting bumped down for ease of use is a bit silly. It isn't hard to use at all. It maybe slightly more difficult to install but once installed it is trivial to use.
      So lets drop ease of use and "value" from the matrix.
      If you do that they tie at 8.6 for the top spot.
      Before you dismiss Virtual Box out of hand take a good look at the matrix.
      The only area outside of ease of use that VirtualBox got less than a 9 on was VM management where it got an 8.
      Also take a look at the weights of each column. Ease of use is 25% while cost is only 10%.
      I think the cost and the Ease of use are both interesting metrics. With a cost of Free I can see no reason not to try VirtualBox first. If you find the ease of use and VM management good enough for your task then you have a huge win. The other may have demo systems you can try for a limited amount of time but they will still cost you money so VirtualBox really should be the first system on anybody's list to try.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    10. Re:VirtualBox lost... by drinking12many · · Score: 1

      Cool Thanks I will have to look into that on the VM server Im getting ready to build.

    11. Re:VirtualBox lost... by anss123 · · Score: 1

      Free has nothing to do with cost.

      When I wrote free I referred to the price, not that it is open source. I suspect most folks look at the price separately regardless of what a product scores, which is why I don't think the price should be baked into the score of a product.

    12. Re:VirtualBox lost... by Vendetta · · Score: 3, Informative

      Not right. I've gotten ESXi 4 to run on every whitebox system I have tried it on. And you use the Virtual Infrastructure client to connect to it (which comes with it) but you do not need to use VirtualCenter, or vCenter as it is now called.

    13. Re:VirtualBox lost... by tirnacopu · · Score: 1

      Cost had better be included in the review. It was not an issue for me when I bought Parallels ver.3 - there simply was no alternative for the Mac, but: I was a happy user until it OS X upgrades broke it, and now I had to choose ver.5 (the current one, and the one this review should have targeted).
        First there was a $80 bill, now (ver3 does not qualify for upgrade price), another $80 and I evaluated quite carefully whether I do want to pay $160, $240 and so on for this type of software, one that I would never upgrade unless forced by other factors.
        I spent a couple weeks with the trial version installed, and decided that yes, it has improved enough to claim the money. This is very important, and there are dozens of applications on my system that have failed this evaluation (WinRar 2, Office 2003, Windows XP, a lot of games).
        Should I ever install VMWare or VirtualBox, they better be as good as Parallels +/- the price difference, and they should promise continuous improvement.

    14. Re:VirtualBox lost... by VGPowerlord · · Score: 1

      I suggest RTFA. In this case the GP was referring to the "Value" score, which is directly correlated to the price.

      In fact, it seems to be there solely to push VirtualBox up higher on the chart, as the other two both got 7/10 on it (whereas VirtualBox got 10/10).

      The scores with it, as shown in the article:

      VMWare Workstation: 8.6
      Parallels: 8.2
      VirtualBox: 8.4

      The scores without it, assuming the 10% score is divided evenly into the two 20% scores (to make them 25%):

      VMWare Workstation: 8.8
      Parallels: 8.3
      VirtualBox: 8.3

      Note that .5s are rounded up in both calculations.

      --
      GLaDOS for President 2016! "Well here we are again. It's always such a pleasure." -- GLaDOS, 2011
    15. Re:VirtualBox lost... by drinking12many · · Score: 1

      I havent tried it since 3. I will be looking at it when I build a new server here in a couple weeks. Thanks

    16. Re:VirtualBox lost... by vux984 · · Score: 1

      The arbitrary "placing" of products is one of the more annoying features of these reviews.

      Its often the case that one product is head and shoulders above the others. There's no reason that shouldn't be recognized, even if one of the lesser products has a niche it excels in.

      I agree the rankings are often arbitrary, and based on author biases, and so on, but they are often relevant. When I'm looking at 10 consumer laser printers... having them identify clearly which they felt were the best gives me a starting point. Their number 1 may not be the best unit for me, maybe number 2 or 3 is the right one for me... but their number 10 is probably not really worth looking at. At least if its a competent reviewer.

    17. Re:VirtualBox lost... by Bert64 · · Score: 1

      No, a review is a comparison by one person of several choices...
      The price is just another comparison point, how important that point is to the review is up to him.

      Personally i consider free (as in freedom) a positive point, as is availability of source code..

      As to free (as in monetary price), that is also a beneficial point.. In order for me to consider using something i have to pay for it needs to not only be superior to the free option, but sufficiently superior to justify its price tag, a minor improvement won't do it has to be clearly superior.

      --
      http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
    18. Re:VirtualBox lost... by Bill_the_Engineer · · Score: 1

      I agree. I used Parallels software up until recently, and it was the lack of free as in freedom that was causing my grief.

      I just don't like the fact that Parallels comes pretty close to using a subscription model. If you don't upgrade to the newest version, then you don't get any future bug fixes. Why can't I keep getting support for software I already paid for and is less than a year old? I upgraded 3 times since buying Parallels Desktop for Mac 1.0, and 3 seems to be my limit especially when it works out to be an upgrade per every year I owned an intel mac.

      I switched to virtual box and it seems to fit my needs. Because its open sourced, I won't feel forced to upgrade to the next major version just for a couple of bug fixes.

      --
      These comments are my own and do not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of my employer or colleagues...
    19. Re:VirtualBox lost... by nabsltd · · Score: 1

      I havent tried it since 3. I will be looking at it when I build a new server here in a couple weeks. Thanks

      ESX (either the "i" variant or not) version 3 was fairly pickly about hardware. Much hardware that was directly supported by the VM kernel still would not be recognized without some tweaks.

      With version 4, the philosophy seems to have changed so that although they still have a semi-limited set of drivers, almost all hardware supported by those drivers is automatically recognized. By also adding support for plain SATA drives on SATA controllers, the base of possible hardware has increased a lot.

      The difference now is that if you want support, you need to have hardware on the HCL (e.g., not just an SAS card with an LSI chip, but instead a Dell-branded version of that card), but you can run on anything the drivers work with. This means I don't have to edit the initrd on the install media so that my LSI SATA 300-8X is recognized.

    20. Re:VirtualBox lost... by drei22 · · Score: 1

      So you can VMotion VM's (live migration) and create snapshots in ESXi with only the web interface?

    21. Re:VirtualBox lost... by oakgrove · · Score: 1

      I have used Virtual Box and I find that it getting bumped down for ease of use is a bit silly. It isn't hard to use at all. It maybe slightly more difficult to install but once installed it is trivial to use.

      I have to agree with this as well. If someone has sense enough to make use of virtual machines then they should have sense enough to glom to the VBox or VMWare interfaces and controls about equally well in my opinion. The only thing I can honestly say is easier for me on VMWare is copying a virtual machine from one computer to another and then just starting it up. On VMWare, you just copy the machine's directory from /home/user/vmware to wherever you want on your other computer then click on the virtualmachine.vmx and away you go. Whereas on VBox, the .vdi and settings files are in different directories so it does add slightly to the complexity of going to a new host system with having to add the .vdi file in the drives selection menu and all of that. But once you've done it and know what to do, it isn't really a problem. Besides, you can just can just copy over the .vdi and just recreate the other settings.

      All in all, I like VBox. There used to be a bit of a performance delta between it and VMWare, at least on my setup, so I use VMWare mostly to this day as I'm used to it. But that performance difference has been made up in recent releases so that's not an issue anymore. I think my only problem at this point is I like to have the virtual machine unmaximized and at a larger resolution than the host system then just alt/drag the window around to position it where I want. I.E., I have the host at 1280x1024 and the guest at 1600x1200 and while VMWare does this with no problem, VBox snaps the window back to 1280 if I try to make it any bigger than that. It's kind of a drag but it's a necessity that I have that functionality so I will continue with VMWare but the minute that changes or a work-a-round comes to my attention, I just may switch over.

      --
      The soylentnews experiment has been a dismal failure.
    22. Re:VirtualBox lost... by aztracker1 · · Score: 1

      You can do that on the free VMWare Server?

      --
      Michael J. Ryan - tracker1.info
    23. Re:VirtualBox lost... by dave562 · · Score: 1

      I don't think so. From everything I've read (and I've been doing a lot of research lately) you need Virtual Center if you want to use VMotion. Standard ESX server only supports basic guest creation via the web interface. For all of the HA and DR bells and whistles you have to cough up the money for Virtual Center.

    24. Re:VirtualBox lost... by dave562 · · Score: 1

      I hate to break it to you but you wasted $80 on Parallel's. I run Virtual Box on OSX, XP and Win7. I have run guest OS installs of Server 2003 and XP. They run like they do on the bare metal. Virtual Box is honestly one of those applications that I look at and shake my head in amazement over the fact that it is free.

    25. Re:VirtualBox lost... by adisakp · · Score: 1

      VirtualBox ... introduction of branched snapshots

      The main reason I was using VMWare over VBox was the crappy linear snapshots with destructive reverts. I guess it's time to try it again and see if the branched snapshots work half as well as the VMWare snapshot tree. Does VBox now allow you to do non-destructive revert to any position on the snapshot tree like VMWare ?

    26. Re:VirtualBox lost... by reub2000 · · Score: 1

      VirtualBox OSE is the easiest to install. Many linux distros include it in their official repositories, meaning that it can be installed with only one command.

    27. Re:VirtualBox lost... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've found that even though ESXi is licensed at no charge, if you don't have exactly the hardware it wants, it won't work. If you want a lightweight hypervisor solution for a server with hardware not supported by ESXi, you basically four options, assuming the server is a moden CPU that has virtualization hooks:

      1: RedHat and Xen.
      2: Windows Server 2008 and Hyper-V. Because Hyper-V loads in early in the boot stage, even the main Windows Server 2008 OS is virtualized. This is a solution I use in environments where I might be concerned about security because I can easily enable BitLocker and get the ability to remotely reboot the machine, keep the confidential VM data encrypted, and VM clients are completely unaffected.
      3: FreeBSD has VM support that when combined with jails and ZFS can do some interesting snapshot tricks.
      4: Your UNIX of choice plus VirtualBox.

      If you are doing a production critical environment where you need to document everything, I'd probably recommend either #1 or #2 because both have a large availability of tools available. #3 is also good because of the wizardry one can do with snapshots, and the security with BSD's jailing functionality. #4 is a decent catch all.

    28. Re:VirtualBox lost... by Lehk228 · · Score: 1

      I knew apple were shitheads, but selling fixes for software is broken by their service packs which they also charge money for is just asinine.

      --
      Snowden and Manning are heroes.
    29. Re:VirtualBox lost... by smash · · Score: 1
      No. For linking ESX servers together, you need to run vCenter, with its licensing and other requirements (either a physical windows box, or Windows VM to host it). Stand-alone ESX/ESXi is fine for one machine - if you have 2 or more that you want to migrate things to/from - you need vCenter.

      However, if you're trying to do vmotion, you also need shared storage (typically a SAN though it does work on NFS as well - obvously you need decent hardware behind it) anyway - which puts you in the "big money, enterprise use" category - the vmware licensing/support costs are not huge in the context of that environment.

      If you just want to play, and learn - I'm pretty sure all the vmware ESX/ESXi/virtualcenter, etc comes with a 60 (or is it 120) day eval license mode that enables ALL features with no key.

      --
      I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
    30. Re:VirtualBox lost... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      If you're looking to deploy ESX/ESXi (for mission critical apps) - you'd typically be using it with a SAN for vmotion and the associated stuff. In that environment, buying server-class hardware (redundant power, etc) on the HCL is not a problem.

      If you have no SAN, and are not going to use vCenter for vmotion, etc - then ESX/ESXi is probably the wrong product choice. You'd be better off with either Server, Workstation, or even vmware player - out of the VMware catalogue - or as you mention, Xen, Virtualbox, etc.

      At this point, I wouldn't bother with Hyper-V. The enterprise features you probably want like live migration, fault tolerance, etc just aren't there yet - and the driver support vs ESX is both a blessing and a curse. ESX hardware support is limited because the drivers are certified as hypervisor compliant. Hyper-V just uses any old Win 2008 driver. Which may or may not be stable in a Hyper-V environment. It also can not handle the same level of over-commit on RAM as ESX can.

    31. Re:VirtualBox lost... by smash · · Score: 1

      Gah... i didn't mean to post anonymously...

      --
      I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
    32. Re:VirtualBox lost... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is no Virtual Infrastructure client for linux. Win

    33. Re:VirtualBox lost... by B2382F29 · · Score: 1

      Yes

      --
      Move Sig. For great justice.
    34. Re:VirtualBox lost... by Piranhaa · · Score: 1

      It wouldn't run even on my recently purchased Opteron system (with a $400 dual socket F Supermicro board). My somewhat-new 2344HE Opteron CPU was "unsupported" apparently. This chip apparently has the TLB bug, but the chances of running into it are slim to none.

      I have since gone back to an OpenSolaris system with Virtualbox for my VMs. ESXi is still too picky in my books.

    35. Re:VirtualBox lost... by LWATCDR · · Score: 1

      To me the very idea of not including the cost is silly. Often good enough is all you need in a tool.
      If you need a shovel a good shovel that will last years and not break and only costs $20 is a better choice than the best shovel that does all that but has a super paint that will never get dull but costs $200.
      For a lot of people VBox will do everything they need and is free. Hey it is is free so as I said you should probably try it first and only not use it if it doesn't do something you need. Kind of like in your case.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    36. Re:VirtualBox lost... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      +1 parent,

      I've used both vmware and virtualbox on Fedora, and virtualbox is easier (slightly) to use and hands down easier to install. Vmware constantly involves kernel module tweaking any time the kernel is updated (and searching for updated modules, if you can find them at all, sigh). Vmware was a huge pain.

  3. Poor reasoning in the review by FranTaylor · · Score: 0, Troll

    They call VMware Workstation at $189 "expensive".

    It's a drop in the bucket compared to the cost of the hardware needed to run any of these products well.

    They say a max of 4 virtual CPU in the review but they FAIL to mention that each of these CPU can have 4 cores, so really it supports 16 virtual processors.

    These two inaccuracies also just happen to be the only two "Cons" that they assign to VMware.

    If you actually bother to boot up and try VirtualBox you will find it very buggy compared to VMware, to the point of being not very usable. I spent several days trying to get VirtualBox to work for me but there were just too many problems.

    1. Re:Poor reasoning in the review by jpmorgan · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      It's Randall Kennedy. Poor reasoning has never stopped him before.

    2. Re:Poor reasoning in the review by bflong · · Score: 5, Informative

      If you actually bother to boot up and try VirtualBox you will find it very buggy compared to VMware...

      Sorry, I have to disagree. I have many, many instances of VirtualBox running and I love it. I *have* had some issues, but only with some really far out edge cases. I find it to be very easy to use, and reliable. As a sysadmin, VBoxManage is awesome for scripting.

      --
      Why is it so hot? Where am I going? What am I doing in this handbasket?
    3. Re:Poor reasoning in the review by VGPowerlord · · Score: 1

      It is expensive... when compared to VMWare Player, which is free (as in beer) and also supports up to 4 virtual CPUs.

      Of course, you can't create VM images with VMWare Player...

      --
      GLaDOS for President 2016! "Well here we are again. It's always such a pleasure." -- GLaDOS, 2011
    4. Re:Poor reasoning in the review by Neon+Spiral+Injector · · Score: 3, Informative

      I was under the impression that VMs couldn't be created with Player either, so I built one in Workstation at the office, copied it to a flash drive, took it home where I installed the newest version of Player, and copied the VM to that machine.

      But in the process of playing around with VMware Player, I did see an option for creating new virtual machines. Didn't explore any further, but it seems the new version does support not just playing, but building.

    5. Re:Poor reasoning in the review by VGPowerlord · · Score: 1

      Of course, you can't create VM images with VMWare Player...

      Whoops, I lied. The latest version can create images now. I'm still not sure that it has 3D support, though.

      --
      GLaDOS for President 2016! "Well here we are again. It's always such a pleasure." -- GLaDOS, 2011
    6. Re:Poor reasoning in the review by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      These tests are big stupidity. VirtualBox is okay to play with some OSes in your desktop. It is indeed buggy and locks up for no reason, even when I compiled it from source in Linux. I had some email conversations with the developers and they agreed it had some rough edges. Maybe it will be solid in a few months or years but VMware is the product to beat and they will have moved somewhere else when VirtualBox works correctly. ESX is free at an entry level, and is a solid product for production. I would never install anything else on my servers unless I want to be embarrassed having to reboot twenty servers. Others may have to reboot a hundred. VirtualPC or VBox in production... you deserve to be unemployed.

    7. Re:Poor reasoning in the review by VGPowerlord · · Score: 1

      It was apparently added since the last version of VMWare Player that I used.

      I noticed it in their FAQ after I posted.

      --
      GLaDOS for President 2016! "Well here we are again. It's always such a pleasure." -- GLaDOS, 2011
    8. Re:Poor reasoning in the review by KlomDark · · Score: 1

      I've had stuff I compiled from scratch also not work. Doesn't mean it's a bad product, could be you just forgot some esoteric parameter when you built it. VMWare is getting worse and worse.

    9. Re:Poor reasoning in the review by nxtw · · Score: 1

      Whoops, I lied. The latest version can create images now. I'm still not sure that it has 3D support, though.

      It does have 3D support.

      By the way, the release notes were very easy to find on Google - it was the second result when searching for VMware Player 3.

    10. Re:Poor reasoning in the review by Galactic+Dominator · · Score: 3, Informative

      If you actually bother to boot up and try VirtualBox you will find it very buggy compared to VMware, to the point of being not very usable. I spent several days trying to get VirtualBox to work for me but there were just too many problems.

      No you will not. Recent Virtualbox is very stable, I haven't seen a crash on Vbox version > 3.0.1 I use it in complex networking high peak load setups without issue. Only time I can bring it down is running high load in a nested hypervisor environment.

      --
      brandelf -t FreeBSD /brain
    11. Re:Poor reasoning in the review by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      Nonsense. Any decent boxed pre-loaded PC from a place like Best Buy or Costco is more than adequate for running this stuff.

      Now there is the obvious problem of distinguishing between those of us that are trying to use VMs as a poor man's mainframe and those of us that aren't.

      Since Parallels is in the comparison, this is obviously a review for desktop users.

      OTOH: none of these products popped out of the ether just yesterday, so the idea
      that you need a monster of a machine by modern standards just to run them decently
      seems a little absurd really.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    12. Re:Poor reasoning in the review by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They call VMware Workstation at $189 "expensive".

      It's a drop in the bucket compared to the cost of the hardware needed to run any of these products well.

      Wrong.

      At my company, we've decided to develop a whole new product line with embedded Linux, which of course means we need an actual Linux system to develop with. We've spent hundreds of thousands of dollars with an embedded Linux vendor for them to make a port of Linux for a certain CPU we're using, and for licenses for their development tools, plus for all the custom development hardware.

      However, since all our desktop computers are very old and run XP (and a few run 2000 because they're too old for XP), we decided to use one computer to run Linux, and we'd all VNC into it. Since we wanted to be able to try a couple different distros in case of compatibility problems with our vendors, we (the IT dept actually) decided to use one computer running a VM. So, they use VirtualBox (because it's free), on top of some recycled old desktop computer for our entire team to do development (i.e., lots of recompiling) on. Why not get a new server system with 2 or 4 Xeons? Because "there's no money in the budget for that".

      So here, we can afford literally hundreds of thousands of dollars for software from certain vendors, but we can't afford $189 for VM software from a different vendor, nor can we afford $2000-5000 for a decent computer to do our development on with all this 6-figure licensed software. For anything that comes out of the IT department's budget, we're only allowed to make do with whatever we can download for free or old hardware we can reuse from elsewhere.

      BTW, we've had all kinds of problems with VirtualBox on this set-up, causing many days' worth of lost time.

    13. Re:Poor reasoning in the review by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      those bugs were?

    14. Re:Poor reasoning in the review by haruchai · · Score: 1

      I've used both for a couple years. If you don't need the ACE and Developer features of VMware, then Virtualbox is a fantastic substitute. Performance is roughly the same
      on dual-core AMD 64-bit.
      From a usability standpoint, it's been ahead of VMware for quite a while.

      For example, you can send keystrokes to Virtualbox without trapping the keyboard output - the VBox window only has to have focus. Also, attaching virtual or physical disks
      or images to VBox has long been simpler, but perhaps VMware has caught up.

      And, i've found the VMware automatic installs to be a bit of a nuisance.

      I guess I would still favor the VMware products for anything critical but, aside from that, I've been very pleased with Virtualbox for type 2 and Xenserver for type 1 hypervisors over
      VMware Workstation and ESX.

      What were you trying to setup that failed with VBox but worked with VMware?

      --
      Pain is merely failure leaving the body
    15. Re:Poor reasoning in the review by maxume · · Score: 1

      With version 2.0 (the version I have tried it with), you could just download a blank image from this site anyway:

      http://vmcreator.com/virtual-machine.html

      Probably not the easiest way to do things, but it works.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    16. Re:Poor reasoning in the review by dave562 · · Score: 1

      What problems did you run into with Virtual Box? I found it to be simple to use.

      1. Download software
      2. Run software
      3. Define parameters of VM
      4. Point virtual CD at .iso image of OS
      5. Install OS

      Then it just works.

    17. Re:Poor reasoning in the review by FranTaylor · · Score: 1

      "Any decent boxed pre-loaded PC from a place like Best Buy or Costco is more than adequate for running this stuff."

      I guess that would depend.

      You're not going to be able to run an automated test of a eight-machine database cluster on any kind of hardware available at Costco.

    18. Re:Poor reasoning in the review by LVSlushdat · · Score: 1

      Same here.. Have a quad core Dell server with 4GB of ram, running Ubuntu 8.04 server, with 3 Virtualbox VMs, two Windows 2003 server instances, and a 2008 instance. Since the system is headless, the command line VBoxHeadless utility is fantastic... Don't know where all these bugs the parent poster mentions are... I also use Virtualbox on my laptop to allow me to run several Linux distros under Windows7.. Been flawless for me!!

      --
      THANK YOU, Edward Snowden!! Americans owe you a debt of gratitude (whether they know it or not..)
    19. Re:Poor reasoning in the review by Insightfill · · Score: 1

      I was under the impression that VMs couldn't be created with Player either

      Might I introduce you to http://www.easyvmx.com/ ? Online creator of blank vms, complete to the spec you choose. Pretty nifty and fast, even if you do have access to regular vmware creation.

    20. Re:Poor reasoning in the review by JDeane · · Score: 1

      This one might but I imagine it would be slow as molasses lol

      http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product.aspx?Prodid=11504534&whse=BC&Ne=5000000+4000000&eCat=BC|84&N=4017755%205000108&Mo=4&No=3&Nr=P_CatalogName:BC&Ns=P_Price|1||P_SignDesc1&lang=en-US&Sp=C&topnav=

    21. Re:Poor reasoning in the review by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      ...like I said before: Most of us aren't trying to use this stuff as a poor man's mainframe.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    22. Re:Poor reasoning in the review by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I use VirtualBox perfectly happily on my Dell XPS laptop. I often run 2 VMs at once, and they all run at perfectly usable speeds. I haven't had a VM-caused crash in the last year, and I do some moderately complicated things:
      - using a Windows VM to print to USB connected printer that has no linux drivers
      - running Warcraft 3 in the same VM (with full hardware acceleration)
      - sharing folders between Windows and Linux VMs and the Linux host.
      - Using VT-x and both cores of my dual-core CPU
      - Using snapshots and immutable disk images.
      - Booting my dual-boot Windows installation, using a pass-through image.
      So yes, I'm not exactly running it in a high-demand environment, but for what I want to do it is perfect. I certainly wouldn't pay $189 for some

    23. Re:Poor reasoning in the review by uninformedLuddite · · Score: 1

      If you actually bother to boot up and try VirtualBox you will find it very buggy compared to VMware, to the point of being not very usable.

      You do realise that you are posting that VirtualBox is crap on /. don't you? Do you have a pecuniary interest in VMware? VirtualBox is brilliant and it performs usually flawlessly(some of the experimental stuff plays up but so what ?). Labeling it as buggy to the point of being unusable is an outrageous and untruthful thing to say.

      I spent several days trying to get VirtualBox to work for me but there were just too many problems.

      Shenanigans

      --
      The new right fascists are bilingual. They speak English and Bullshit.
    24. Re:Poor reasoning in the review by alexo · · Score: 1

      But in the process of playing around with VMware Player, I did see an option for creating new virtual machines. Didn't explore any further, but it seems the new version does support not just playing, but building.

      So what are the differences between the (free) player and the (not free) workstation?

    25. Re:Poor reasoning in the review by bingoUV · · Score: 1

      One major thing, no snapshots in the player. Showstopper for me.

      --
      Bingo Dictionary - Pragmatist, n. A myopic idealist.
  4. On the Atom processor netbook by al0ha · · Score: 3, Informative

    VirtualBox rules. XP on VMWare barely ran while the same Win XP install on VirtualBox is working well.

    --
    Did you ever wake up in the morning, with a Zombie Woof behind your eyes? -- FZ
    1. Re:On the Atom processor netbook by lwsimon · · Score: 1

      I've used VirtualBox OSE for about a year now, and have found issues only when doing complex setups for network testing.

      --
      Learn about Photography Basics.
    2. Re:On the Atom processor netbook by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wait? You have an Atom processor running Windows XP with a VirtualBox VM Machine and it works well?

      I've got an Acer LT and I'd love to do this!

      I'm currently using an AMD64 with 32-bit winxp and it rocks. You think the ATOM 1.6GHz (1G Mem) LT would run ok with VirtualBox? (The LT's my main PC ATM and I'm reluctant to get too "experimental.")

  5. The original point still stands by mbessey · · Score: 2

    Whether it meets some arbitrary definition of "freedom" shouldn't affect its score. If "freedom" is a desirable feature for certain users, they can certainly weigh that appropriately themselves.

    1. Re:The original point still stands by Hatta · · Score: 1

      If "freedom" is a desirable feature for certain users, they can certainly weigh that appropriately themselves.

      You could say the same about any feature. Which is just another way of saying that these aggregate scores are pretty much meaningless. Which is true, but not really a useful observation.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    2. Re:The original point still stands by Ephemeriis · · Score: 1

      Whether it meets some arbitrary definition of "freedom" shouldn't affect its score. If "freedom" is a desirable feature for certain users, they can certainly weigh that appropriately themselves.

      VirtualBox is free as in Open Source. Which is very important to some folks, and unimportant to others. But that doesn't mean whether a product is Open Source or not shouldn't factor into these reviews...

      Some of these products offer better speed, or better administration, or better 3D support... All of which will matter to some people, but not everyone. Are we going to toss out all of those as well?

      If we toss out every single difference between products that some random person out there may not care about, what are we going to base our reviews on?

      --
      "Work is the curse of the drinking classes." -Oscar Wilde
    3. Re:The original point still stands by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I hate you with every fiber of my being.

  6. Because VMWare *sucks* by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    VMWare assumes the *entire* point of your system is to run VMWare. Therefore, *everything* must take a back seat to it.

    Try looking at the RPM. It's *hideous*... just a wrapper around the VMWare installer script - which means you end up with a crapload of files that RPM doesn't recognize as belonging to the VMWare package (or *any* package, for that matter.)

    Then you have the VMWare installer for "other" operating systems... it asks you where it should install itself.. so I say "/usr/local/vmware" - but it decides that it *also* needs to install stuff in /usr/share and doesn't tell you about it.

    Contrast with VirtualBox, which assumes that you system is, you know, your system.. and that you *might* want to use it to run other software, so it should play nicely and not try to take everything over.

    VMWare is just a huge stinking pile of crap.

    1. Re:Because VMWare *sucks* by drinking12many · · Score: 1

      I guess it depends on how you use it. For my purposes it is the entire point of my system. Im usually trying to cram a minimum of 16 VMs on each one and it does just fine for what I need it to do.

  7. I was wrong by FranTaylor · · Score: 2, Informative

    Oops I was wrong about the max number of processors, it really is 4, I just tried it.

  8. Virtualbox by dikdik · · Score: 4, Interesting
    I use Virtual box on a pair of mac intel core duo 2 machines to run windows XP pro I'm very pleased with it. It essentially works perfectly. I don't care that it is only single processor since All I want is basic seemless windows functionality for those few cases where software is windows only.

    it works well with USB devices. I use it to program Lego Mindostorms, and for Midi (to USB) keyboard input and some thumb drives.

    it will mount any folder on my mac disk either permenantly or temporarily (these show us as X: or Y: or whatever). What's mildly annoying is that this is 2 step process: first you tell the VM to "add the drive" then you have to use a windows "run" command "net use x: " to tell windows about it. the second step seems strange to me, but you only do it one time.

    I've had three things I could not figure out.

    I never was able to get a windows media player to mount in media player mode so I could use windows DRM protected WMA files on it and manage it from within windows media player 11. Instead it only will mount as a thumb drive.

    I was not able to get a virtual CD device to mount an iso image or burn an iso image (as a work around for getting the WMA files in a format I could play).

    It will not burn a CD or DVD.

    also I never figured out how to add my Samsung C310 printer to it or my HP multifunction printer to it. it does see them, it just never finds the drivers. However I'm pretty certain this is a windows driver problem and nothing to do with the VM.

    I don't game so open GL means squat to me.

    1. Re:Virtualbox by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hi. I have a dual boot vista 64 and ubuntu. I have 3 usb devices that have no driver for vista 64 : a scanner (epson perfection 1240u photo), a printer (hp photosmart 7350) and a DVB-T tuner (yakumo quickstick). I have installed virtualbox in order to use these old devices with windows XP. It works fine on ubuntu for the scanner and the printer. It failed on vista 64 : blue screens each time I install a driver ! Is it normal ? Is there a chance to get better results with vmware ?

    2. Re:Virtualbox by dave562 · · Score: 1

      I was not able to get a virtual CD device to mount an iso image or burn an iso image (as a work around for getting the WMA files in a format I could play).

      I've never tried to burn CDs from an inside a VirtualBox VM, but I always install the OS from .iso images and it works just fine. We have a volume license agreement with Microsoft and they provide .iso files for all of their OSes.

    3. Re:Virtualbox by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Have you installed the "guest tools"? Shares will then show up in Windows automatically. Though they're "vbox" shares, not smb

    4. Re:Virtualbox by Dragee · · Score: 1

      If I'm misunderstanding your question, I apologize in advance, but I think a solution to your problem with iso's is to work independently of virtualbox if it's not working for you, and use some other tools. I have found that VirtualCloneDrive (http://www.slysoft.com/en/download.html) and ISO Recorder (http://isorecorder.alexfeinman.com/isorecorder.htm) installed in my windows vm's make working with iso's easier, because I can mount or create iso's independently of whatever hypervisor I'm using, as long as I can get to my iso's share.

      --
      dragée (n): a sugarcoated nut
  9. No mention of Citrix's XenDesktop? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    No mention of Citrix's XenDesktop? XenApp is far superior to normal Terminal Services and the ICA protocol is pretty damn impressive. Add in their "HDX" technology and Provisioning Server and I am scratching my head as to why the author left them out.

    1. Re:No mention of Citrix's XenDesktop? by nxtw · · Score: 1

      XenDesktop is a thin client system that uses virtualization on the server, not on a desktop PC like the other products reviewed.

  10. Because your evaluation *sucks* by FranTaylor · · Score: 3, Informative

    "VMWare assumes the *entire* point of your system is to run VMWare"

    Damned straight! Why else would I buy a machine with 8 cores and 32 Gb RAM?

    "Try looking at the RPM"

    What RPM? VMware Workstation 7 does not ship as an RPM any more. You are behind on the times.

    "Contrast with VirtualBox"

    Yes I did. They BOTH install lots of strange stuff on your machine. I did not see much difference.

    The big difference I found is that VMware has sufficient quality for me to do my work. VirtualBox is so buggy that I cannot do my job with it. Believe me, I tried.

    1. Re:Because your evaluation *sucks* by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Damned straight! Why else would I buy a machine with 8 cores and 32 Gb RAM?

      To do run graphics apps? Other processor/RAM intensive items?

      I'm glad that you've sold your soul, but for everyone else, it's not so clear-cut.

      What RPM? VMware Workstation 7 does not ship as an RPM any more.

      Thank God for small favours. Although it doesn't fix the next one (regardless of your apologism)

      They BOTH install lots of strange stuff on your machine. I did not see much difference.

      Maybe you didn't see a difference because you're a fucking tool who can't read.

      I'll repeat myself:

      VMWare installs a bunch of crap in places I tell it not to. WITHOUT telling me.

      VirtualBox installs exactly where I tell it to, and does not write to other parts of my filesystem.

      Now, if you still don't see a difference, read it again, and don't reply until you understand what I said.

    2. Re:Because your evaluation *sucks* by FranTaylor · · Score: 1

      Is "write to other parts of my filesystem" is the biggest complaint you can come up with?

      Most of us go by criteria like "it does the job for me" or "I save two hours a week in downtime" when we evaluate software.

    3. Re:Because your evaluation *sucks* by dave562 · · Score: 1

      What problems did you run into with VirtualBox that you didn't run into with VMWare?

    4. Re:Because your evaluation *sucks* by pdbaby · · Score: 1

      Just chiming in with my experiences in VirtualBox... I couldn't get it to do anything - it just sat there at a black screen when I tried to boot a Linux image. No descriptive errors, no apparent activity.

      --
      Global symbol "$deity" requires explicit package name at line 2. - If only $scripture started "use strict;"
    5. Re:Because your evaluation *sucks* by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Is "write to other parts of my filesystem" is the biggest complaint you can come up with?

      Sorry, but are you actually defending this piece of shit?

      Read the *FUCKING POST* to try to understand what the complaints are.

      And pull your head out of VMWare's ass, you need air.

      Most of us go by criteria like "it does the job for me" or "I save two hours a week in downtime" when we evaluate software.

      What the fuck is it with /. and reading comprehension lately? Why the fuck are there so many stupid fucks who feel they need to respond to something when they haven't fucking read it?!?!?

      IF YOU'RE GOING TO REPLY TO THREE SENTENCES, READ THEM BEFORE YOU DO!

    6. Re:Because your evaluation *sucks* by lewiscr · · Score: 1

      I'm not the GP, but I can see his point. When you're setting up a VM hosts that use NFS, iSCSI, or SAN storage, "writing to other parts of my filesystem" can be a deal breaker.

      Usually those sorts of environments aren't using VMWare Workstation or VirtualBox, they're using the enterprise versions, which should understand those limitations. At least I hope so, I haven't used any of them.

  11. Re:On everything! by pacman+on+prozac · · Score: 1

    VirtualBox is also great for network labs as you can bind physical NICs to seperate virtual machines. You can't do that with any others until you start getting into ESX territory afaik.

    As an example you can run Checkpoint or Olive on it and link it in with Dynamips, get an entire enterprise network running on your desktop. Maybe not everyones idea of fun but a comparable hardware lab setup would run to many thousands of pounds.

    I'd second your comments about the Atom too, it runs XP blazingly fast.

  12. Did you compare? by FranTaylor · · Score: 1

    VirtualBox is fine for what it is, but I don't have the time to struggle with it.

    "some really far out edge cases" - welcome to my life.

    But VMware is BETTER. And $189 approaches zero compared to the cost of the time I spend with it.

    1. Re:Did you compare? by bflong · · Score: 1

      My latest edge case was running some really, really old and crusty 16bit program in a Windows XP guest and having it bluescreen. I didn't try it in Vmware. Before switching to VirtualBox I used Vmware player on these workstations, but it couldn't keep up performance wise. I use Vmware server (v2) on our two main servers here, each running 6 VM's. I had used Vmware server (v1) before that. I also bought and used a copy of Vmware Workstation when is still cost $300. Sorry, I don't see how Vmware Workstation is better then VirtualBox. I don't struggle with it at all. If VirtualBox was $189 and I could only chose that or Workstaion, I would still use VirtualBox.

      --
      Why is it so hot? Where am I going? What am I doing in this handbasket?
    2. Re:Did you compare? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      uhm it was going to barf in xp native anyway. If you are going to do 16 bit, use dos with the cpu limiter program. virtualbox with the right selection of virtual hardware will do the job nicely.

      Really, who the hell expects some 20 year old program to work on anything even close to modern?

    3. Re:Did you compare? by a8ksh4 · · Score: 1

      You're right about the value of our time compared to the cost of a piece of software, like this, but there is no struggle when it comes to VirtualBox. What platform are you running them on?

      For me in Linux, VirtualBox is much easier to install, and runs flawlessly. I used to have problems with VMWare crashing on me, etc. VirtualBox has been fantastic.

  13. 3D Games in Parallels by MobileMrX · · Score: 1

    Just as an FYI: 3D acceleration is supported to a degree in Parallels, I play Counter-Strike 1.6 in in 1920x1080 using OpenGL mode on my Mac. It isn't perfect for all games, but it does work!

    1. Re:3D Games in Parallels by PopeRatzo · · Score: 3, Funny

      I play Counter-Strike 1.6 in in 1920x1080 using OpenGL mode on my Mac.

      You openly admit this?

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    2. Re:3D Games in Parallels by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What's wrong with playing games?

    3. Re:3D Games in Parallels by somersault · · Score: 1

      Hey! I spent many happy years of my life playing pre-source CS. It's still better than a LOT of the crap that passes for online games these days. Before about 1.5 I didn't even have a decent internet connection, I spent a lot of time making my own bots to play against xD

      --
      which is totally what she said
    4. Re:3D Games in Parallels by WarlockD · · Score: 1

      I miss rescuing those scientists. It seems its all deathmatch now.

    5. Re:3D Games in Parallels by somersault · · Score: 1

      Well, I tried one of the Battlefield games recently and it's not bad. It's basically just a vaguely more realistic Team Fortress* though, with vehicles.

      *and when I think Team Fortress, I think Quake.. not much has happened since then when it comes to multiplayer FPS games.. headshots.. vehicles.. co-op.. umm.. achievements? Meh.

      --
      which is totally what she said
    6. Re:3D Games in Parallels by uninformedLuddite · · Score: 1

      I play Left for Dead in a 1024x768 VM on my Linux desktop using experimental D3D on Open Source. Should I be using OpenGL? Am I failing some sort of 1337ness test?

      --
      The new right fascists are bilingual. They speak English and Bullshit.
    7. Re:3D Games in Parallels by MobileMrX · · Score: 1

      Indeed, we play at lunch where I work. The office paid for the licenses which was easy to justify at $10 each! :)

    8. Re:3D Games in Parallels by MobileMrX · · Score: 1

      No l33tness test here! I was just stating what settings I was on in case someone else was interested to try 3D gaming in a virtual environment. I don't have a linux box at my disposal currently, but I might switch one of my home machines if this can be done with something other than parallels! What VM software do you use?

    9. Re:3D Games in Parallels by djdavetrouble · · Score: 1

      3D acceleration is supported to a degree in Parallels, I play Counter-Strike 1.6 in in 1920x1080 using OpenGL mode on my Mac. It isn't perfect for all games, but it does work!

      I use my VM for one thing and one thing only, and I take this very very seriously:

      CRAZY TAXI .

      One of the best games ever.

      --
      music lover since 1969
    10. Re:3D Games in Parallels by uninformedLuddite · · Score: 1

      I was using virtualbox under latest mandriva. i did a small system upgrade and dropped the hard drive onto the concrete floor so I'm not doing it at the moment. I am doing a major major upgrade in a few weeks so I am not bothering to set anything up at all bar a couple of games in a windows partition(seperate to work machine) until the goodness arrives.

      --
      The new right fascists are bilingual. They speak English and Bullshit.
  14. Parallels Desktop is at version 5, btw. by carlhaagen · · Score: 1

    Maybe he should've spent a second or two checking up on this before he did his test.

    1. Re:Parallels Desktop is at version 5, btw. by francium+de+neobie · · Score: 1

      Yes. PD5 user here. Parallels Desktop 5 is much faster than 4 in my experience. The reviewer should have doubled checked that he's reviewing the newest releases.

    2. Re:Parallels Desktop is at version 5, btw. by Andy+Dodd · · Score: 1

      Please provide a link to Parallels Desktop 5 for Windows, then.

      I only see a Mac release for Desktop 5 on Parallels products page, which was in fact mentioned in TFA, had you bothered to read it.

      --
      retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
  15. Only For Mac by TheNinjaroach · · Score: 2, Informative

    Didn't RTFA, I see. It states that Parallels Desktop 5 is available, but only for Mac. I just checked out their website and I have to agree.

    --
    I went to eat some animal crackers and the box said, "Do not eat if seal is broken." I opened the box and sure enough..
  16. Parallels Workstation 4.0 EXTREEEEEMMMMEEEE!!!! by gbrayut · · Score: 1

    I use VirtualBox for building a test environment and it works very well. Also the graphics acceleration worked fine for the games that I tested with. Parallels Workstation 4.0 Extreme looks interesting, but the only "Certified hardware platform" is a HP Z800 Workstation, which costs $2000 to $5000. Add in $400 for the Parallels license and that gets to be a bit steep. Plus the announcer on the video sounds like he is trying to sell you a used car.

  17. VirtualBox FTW by Gothmolly · · Score: 1

    It works, its free, it supports multiple CPUs. Done.

    --
    I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
    1. Re:VirtualBox FTW by c0d3g33k · · Score: 1

      I second the motion.

    2. Re:VirtualBox FTW by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Stop that FTW shit you ignorant 15 year old prick

  18. Struggle? What struggle? by itomato · · Score: 1

    And better, how?

    Just BETTER?

    There are cases where VMWare may be preferable, but unless you're running 16 systems, I don't see how it's "BETTER" for general use.

    VirtualBox is at least $189 less than any other product. That makes it 189 times "BETTER" than anything else, especially when you start in with the feature comparisons.

    - Virtual CPU count
    - OpenGL
    - Manageability/portability
    - Live migration/teleportation
    - Scriptable backend
    - Dead Simple Interface

    BTW, what could you possibly be struggling with?

    I was just going to read and mod.. Oh well. It's worth it.

  19. James Joyce Would Be Scratching His Head by timkar · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Wow. I see that they've stopped teaching good sentence and paragraph construction in college. Is it possible that this "paragraph" was cobbled together from several tweets?

    1. Re:James Joyce Would Be Scratching His Head by maxume · · Score: 1

      "I see that they've stopped teaching good sentence and paragraph construction in college." is a bit of a doozy.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
  20. Re:On everything! by nxtw · · Score: 1

    VirtualBox is also great for network labs as you can bind physical NICs to seperate virtual machines. You can't do that with any others until you start getting into ESX territory afaik.

    This has been a feature of every VMware desktop release I've used, since before VirtualBox was around...

  21. come on! by FranTaylor · · Score: 2, Interesting

    You are saying it yourself:

    "There are cases where VMWare may be preferable"

    My system is one of those cases.

    I just flat out could not get VirtualBox to work correctly. I require a very complex network setup and their networking is not as robust as VMware.

    My VMs are pushed out hard, running automated tests. I got occasional lock-ups in VirtualBox while VMware runs for days and days without a single problem.

  22. VirtualBox; mostly opensource and lots of host OSs by rhavenn · · Score: 1

    For me, VirtualBox wins purely out of the fact that it's mostly open source and supports the largest amount of host OSs and runs on a few more that aren't "supported" officially. Finally, a virtual machine that works with FreeBSD as a host.

    However, from a performance standpoint I can't tell the difference between VMware and VirtualBox, except perhaps that VirtualBox doesn't seem to hammer the host OS quite as hard.

  23. Virtual box is great, but doesn't scale. by gestalt_n_pepper · · Score: 1

    For smaller scope tasks, there's nothing wrong with Virtual Box, but when you start running 50+ machines, you just need something like ESXi server. I've never used the web interface and don't plan to. We always use the Windows client.

    --
    Please do not read this sig. Thank you.
    1. Re:Virtual box is great, but doesn't scale. by haruchai · · Score: 1

      You're comparing apples to oranges -Virtualbox is a type 2 hypervisor like VMware Workstation / Player. How does Vbox scale compared to Workstation?
      How does XenServer scale compared to ESXi?
      Those are fair and relevant comparisons.

      --
      Pain is merely failure leaving the body
  24. Screwy math by FranTaylor · · Score: 1

    "$189 less than any other product. That makes it 189 times "BETTER""

    I think you have some pretty serious issues with your math skills.

    And you have no clue about costs.

    The more expensive software product often makes for the lowest-cost system when you factor in the necessary hardware.

    For example a $10,000 enterprise database is cheaper than a free one if it can do the same work on a $20,000 server that would require a $50,000 server for the free one.

    Yes I do work with systems like that.

  25. Don't forget Wine by fulldecent · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    Don't forget to add Wine to the comparison - they up to v1.0.1 now.

    And if you are using a Mac, that means you should consider Wine Bottler. It's like CrossoverOver, but it's better and free.

    --

    -- I was raised on the command line, bitch

    1. Re:Don't forget Wine by Hatta · · Score: 1

      Wine has nothing to do with virtualization. It's a compatibility layer, nothing more.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    2. Re:Don't forget Wine by BobMcD · · Score: 1

      Wine has nothing to do with virtualization.

      False. Both are methods for running the software you want while still retaining the freedom to select an operating system.

      It's a compatibility layer, nothing more.

      False. It's a compatibility layer that might eliminate the need for you to use full-blown virtualization.

      Yes, I am aware of the recursive acronym. I see it (and your comment) as exactly the kind of pendantry that is keeping many people from enjoying open source software. Fortunately I am able to see past it, and despite the name of the product, I am able to realize that Parallels and WINE can be used to meet the exact same needs.

    3. Re:Don't forget Wine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      WINE lets you run several logically separate servers on the same physical system with specific resource allocation?

      When did that happen?

  26. Re:2D and 3D accel. on VirtualBox by miknix · · Score: 1

    Just to point out that VirtualBox has support for 2D and 3D acceleration. I used to play "armadillo" there and (by also using AMD-V virtualization extension) it works great.

    I also saw some friends using it to develop flash games using Adobe Flash CS3 and it was really smooth.

  27. VirtualBox works for me... by rgviza · · Score: 1

    For me VirtualBox wins because it works on Windows 7 home premium. VMWare Server requires Professional.

    I also like the interface better than VMWare's free server product which I was using on my old xp pro installation.

    --
    Don't kid yourself. It's the size of the regexp AND how you use it that counts.
  28. Re:Struggle? What struggle? by nxtw · · Score: 1

    VirtualBox is at least $189 less than any other product. That makes it 189 times "BETTER" than anything else, especially when you start in with the feature comparisons.

    VMware Player and VMware Server are available for free. Also, if you are going to judge VirtualBox as being X times better than some other product because of cost, VirtualBox would then be infinitely better than VMware Workstation. But it's clearly not infinitely better. Only the open source edition of VirtualBox is free for everyone; the non-open source (precompiled) version is only free for personal use and evaluation. VMware Player, Server, and ESXi are free for everyone.

    VMware has better USB passthrough support, as I've discovered by trying both VMware Player and VirtualBox (the device worked only in VMware Player). VirtualBox's USB support isn't even included in the open source edition.

    VMware has automatic printing support for guests, without the need to manually share the printer or install a driver on a guest.

    For desktop products, VMware has Easy Install, which automatically performs an installation of supported guest operating systems and automatically installs the tools.

    - OpenGL

    VMware has Aero support in Windows VIsta/7, which VirtualBox does not. VMware's Direct3D and OpenGL support is more advanced.

    Manageability/portability

    VMware VMs are portable between ESX, ESXi, Player, Fusion, Workstation, Server.
    VMware Server is manageable via the web interface or the full VMware vSphere/Infrastructure client. VMware VMs can also be accessed via VNC, even with the free Player. (RDP support for VirtualBox is not in the open source version, either.)

    Dead Simple Interface

    VirtualBox's interface is rather confusing, especially compared to that of VMware Player or VMware Fusion.

  29. Where's KVM by snadrus · · Score: 5, Informative

    Linux's KVM module and the "Virtual Machince Manager" (VMM) app that uses it needs to be measured on here. The interface is simple and easy.

    It has shiny features too:
    - live OS migration.
    - Tools like "Test Drive Ubuntu" can use it to give you one-click "Test your bug in a daily build VM".
    - FOSS on FOSS (Linux, BSD, etc) no-latency driver requests being passed to the Host OS, meaning only 1 context switch per Virtual-Physical interrupt.
    - It's contributers are all still in the business of improving it (unlike all those mentioned except Parallels)
    - It's FOSS, has very little code, is the fastest growing
    - Its modules can run code for other CPUs (good for the oncoming ARMs).

    Hardware virtualization helps for Windows virtualization. Please measure programs that use it (other than with Virtualbox which doesn't cooperate).

    --
    Science & open-source build trust from peer review. Learn systems you can trust.
    1. Re:Where's KVM by short · · Score: 1

      slashdot in recent years does not expect you would not run Windows as your host OS (to play with that Linux game as the guest OS).

  30. VirtualBox is an excellent product by DrXym · · Score: 1
    I have no doubt that VMWare is a good product but the UI is terrible, and performance can be a bit iffy. On the other hand I've had nothing but a good experience with VirtualBox. Performance is excellent and the UI is nice and friendly too. I'm sure I might think different if I were some admin with a whole bank of these to run and other requirements, but for personal use VirtualBox has been far better than VMWare.

    It's too bad that no VM tool seems to support OS X as a guest. I'm sure it must be possible.

    1. Re:VirtualBox is an excellent product by atommota · · Score: 1

      It's too bad that no VM tool seems to support OS X as a guest. I'm sure it must be possible.

      I agree. OSX is a pain to get going on virtual machines as much as I try. I've tried VMWare and VirtualBox. Does anyone know if Parallels is any better? Seeing as they have all that OSX experience.

    2. Re:VirtualBox is an excellent product by nabsltd · · Score: 1

      It's too bad that no VM tool seems to support OS X as a guest. I'm sure it must be possible.

      I have successfully installed OS X on a VMware Workstation 7 VM, but I can't boot from the virtual hard drive...I have to boot from the CD, then tell it to use the HD as root.

      I suspect this is from my lack of experience in building a Hackintosh, and the bootloader/kernel on the hard disk is not correct for non-Mac hardware.

      In my testing, I have also found that nothing could get the OS X installer to boot on a Core i7 (either through a VM or raw hardware).

    3. Re:VirtualBox is an excellent product by erstazi · · Score: 1

      VirtualBox supports EFI now in 3.1.0 so you might want to try again.

  31. They all are great in certain respects.... by ogdenk · · Score: 1

    When it comes to VM's I use for interactive work like running Win32 desktop apps or gaming, I prefer Parallels Desktop 5 on OS X. It even has WDDM drivers for Winblows. Very slick, integrates well with OS X and has good enough 3D performance to play some games.

    When it comes to virtual servers, I use VirtualBox where scalability isn't a HUGE concern. I also use it extensively in the classroom since it's quite free and not hard for students to get ahold of and feel comfortable using it. The 3D performance is awful and it's not as fast as parallels but it's solid and a good workhorse.

    If I were hosting 50 VM's, I'd probably go with VMWare ESX but their desktop offerings VMWare Workstation and VMWare Fusion (OSX) have failed to impress me much. Not saying they suck but Parallels 5 is noticeably faster, more stable (for both host and guest) and integrates better with the Host OS for desktop use.

    All are good products but I prefer Parallels on OSX, VBox on everything else. If they develop a Windows/Linux version of Parallels 5 that is just as good, I'd probably buy it.

    One interesting point though, why does VBox support for FreeBSD guests suck so horribly? You'd think a fairly open VM would have better support for open source guests. Parallels supports FreeBSD in a much better fashion.

  32. strange attitude about problems by FranTaylor · · Score: 1

    None of these products are perfect, they all have problems.

    These are complex products with many many features and I don't imagine there are many of us who use all of them.

    Stuff that seems like a minor issue to one user is a total show-stopper to another.

    Your success with a product means nothing to another user if they are using it differently or are attempting to use a different set of features.

    Really the only answer is you have to try them for yourself and see how they work for you.

    Fortunately even the pay-for products have a free evaluation period so you can try them out without shelling out the cash.

    If you work with the product all day then the cost of purchase is pretty irrelevant compared to what you are doing with it. How much is your time worth?

    1. Re:strange attitude about problems by haruchai · · Score: 1

        Based on your other posts, it sounds like you have access to business / enterprise class hardware so why are you using type 2 hypervisors?

      It sounds like your needs would be better served by ESX / ESXi / Xenserver.

      --
      Pain is merely failure leaving the body
  33. You have bigger problems than expensive software by FranTaylor · · Score: 1

    "since all our desktop computers are very old and run XP "

    "there's no money in the budget for that".

    "nor can we afford $2000-5000 for a decent computer"

    "causing many days' worth of lost time."

    You clearly have big problems with the whole concept of what is cheap and what is expensive.

  34. 8 cores and 32 GB by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Damned straight! Why else would I buy a machine with 8 cores and 32 Gb RAM?

    Editing video and/or large photographs shot in raw format.

  35. Re:On everything! by negge · · Score: 1

    VMware Workstation has the "Virtual network editor" tool which does exactly that. It's been there since v6.0 if I remember correctly.

  36. Re:On everything! by nabsltd · · Score: 2, Informative

    This has been a feature of every VMware desktop release I've used, since before VirtualBox was around

    It's not as obvious how to do it on VMware Workstation, though.

    You need to change one of the "virtual networks" to bridge to a specific adapter. In addition, on a Windows host you should disable all protocols but the "VMware Bridge protocol" from binding to that adapter. Then, you set the VM to use that virtual network.

    I have my vCenter server running this way, because version 2.5 could run on a domain controller, and version 4 cannot. An install of workstation later, and vCenter is running with its own dedicated NIC.

  37. Re:You have bigger problems than expensive softwar by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yeah, no kidding. I feel like I'm losing my sanity at this place.

  38. Choosing between these was incredibly easy for me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    VirtualBox is the only one in Ubuntu's repository, so that's the one I use. Can't be arsed with binary installers that can't be removed and break whenever you run a system update.

  39. Colour-critical work? Forget VMWare. by isolationism · · Score: 5, Informative
    I've been using VMware religiously for a few years now to test web pages in Windows-based browsers (I do web-based UI design on Linux and love it), but recently I've been doing more design/visual work and less markup/scripting, so I bought a deep-colour (10 bit) display with a much wider gamut than sRGB and promptly went about setting up the requisite software.

    It took very little time for me to discover that VMware has absolutely no colour management capability, which completely kills any chance you have of using Windows-based, colour-managed applications like Photoshop (unless you are intentionally not using a colour-managed workflow).

    The color matrix/LUT itself must obviously be created and applied in the host OS (I use Argyll and an X-Rite i1 Display 2 all on Linux, which work great) but it's useless if the Windows application isn't aware of the display profile.

    I did a bit of reading and it turned out VirtualBox does support hardware display profiles for Windows guests; the same afternoon I had a Windows XP VirtualBox guest running Photoshop CS3 with full colour management and has since been working great. Strongly recommend to other Linuxy designer-types finding themselves in a similar situation.

    On a related note, if ever you do create a calibrated monitor profile using Argyll that you intend to use with Firefox, use a matrix type profile, not a LUT -- Firefox apparently does not support the more accurate LUT profiles at all, but matrix profiles work just fine. I use the LUT for the general display profile but point firefox explicitly to an alternate matrix profile so that photos containing embedded display profiles show up with gamma and especially saturation levels for my display.

    1. Re:Colour-critical work? Forget VMWare. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A 10-bit display? As in, 10 bits per pixel, giving a colour depth of 30 bits? What's the point of that? The human eye can only distinguish between approximately 10 million colours.

      Or is there some other benefit here that I'm missing?

    2. Re:Colour-critical work? Forget VMWare. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The benefit is: he gets to wag his e-peen in this thread on /.

    3. Re:Colour-critical work? Forget VMWare. by Lehk228 · · Score: 1

      and you are doing this for web design to be accessed by users where exactly 0% of them will have their hardware and software configured to get anything out of the extra work and money you expended, assuming they have hardware even capable of doing it were they to do it.

      --
      Snowden and Manning are heroes.
    4. Re:Colour-critical work? Forget VMWare. by isolationism · · Score: 2, Informative

      Yes, there are actually numerous benefits you are missing, and none of them have anything to do with my "e-peen" as some other anonymous coward commented. The market for 30-and-higher bit display technologies is far from being electronic snake oil, I assure you; every movie you've ever seen in a digital cinema is projected at no less than 12 bits per colour component, for example -- considerably more colour than is supposedly "indistinguishable by the human eye" than my display is capable of reproducing.

      I apologize if this comes across sounding tired and annoyed -- it is a little of both, admittedly -- but I tire of seeing this comment posted on discussion forums whenever "deep colour" displays are mentioned and hope you are genuinely interested as opposed to trolling.

      It's trivially easy to illustrate how 24 bit displays are not beyond a human's ability to distinguish. Here's a simple test for you: Draw or display a gradient image from black to middle grey across the entire screen with no dithering. Can you see that there are bands of grey between those two values? You should have no difficulty whatsoever doing so (unless you have terrible vision). The fact that you can see those bands means you can easily distinguish between 16 million colours -- at least the way that colours are necessarily reproduced via red, green and blue channels.

      Another easy experiment is to look at the colour "white" on your screen. Now look at a white sheet of paper held directly under a lamp, or out in direct sunlight. Sunlight is typically an order of magnitude brighter than most artificial light. If you can distinguish between 256 values between the blackest black and whitest white on your monitor, and the white outside is an order of magnitude brighter than the brightest white on your monitor, then you have just illustrated that you are theoretically capable of discerning more than 2500 shades of "grey" without even introducing any individual colours yet.

      That said, the prime benefit of deep color monitors isn't that they can display all those colours simultaneously -- most software can't do that yet (despite microsoft's promise that Windows 7 would; even Adobe has as much as said that doing so would involve some serious rewrites to be able to display more than 8 bits per channel even though it can manipulate images with higher bit depths in memory).

      The two primary benefits of deep colour monitors are A) A wider colour gamut than most monitors, particularly that of other LCDs; the colours are richer and more vibrant, and can completely encircle a colour space such as sRGB instead of covering most of it (which is the best most LCDs can do); and, more importantly, B) the monitor is internally capable of representing all of those colours, which is particularly important when displays are colour-calibrated.

      The latter point is particularly important to prevent actual loss of colour. Remember the banding part I mentioned earlier? Well, banding becomes more prominent when displays are colour-corrected because an 8-bit monitor can only reproduce 16 million colours. When the display is calibrated, a lookup table or matrix is used to "transform" an absolute colour value -- say, a perfectly neutral 50% grey -- into what actually appears as being a perfectly neutral 50% grey on your display, which may in fact be something like (132,129,124) on your display if it has a blue cast like most LCD-backlit displays do. Because of this correction, you "lose" a lot of colours on your display because they fall outside the calibrated table, meaning your 16 million colours might be more like 12- or 13-million by the time you're done. This is unfortunately less trivially easy to experience -- especially if you don't have access to a colorimeter to calibrate your display or weren't at least provided with (and use) an ICM/ICC file by your display manufacturer -- but it is a well-documented phenomenon you'll see illustrated on LCD test suites like Lacom's (http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/gradient.php).

    5. Re:Colour-critical work? Forget VMWare. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Another easy experiment is to look at the colour "white" on your screen. Now look at a white sheet of paper held directly under a lamp, or out in direct sunlight. Sunlight is typically an order of magnitude brighter than most artificial light. If you can distinguish between 256 values between the blackest black and whitest white on your monitor, and the white outside is an order of magnitude brighter than the brightest white on your monitor, then you have just illustrated that you are theoretically capable of discerning more than 2500 shades of "grey" without even introducing any individual colours yet.

      Even if you can distinguish between the 256 levels of gray on your screen, you most certainly can't while that hypothetical sunlit white sheet of paper is in your view.

    6. Re:Colour-critical work? Forget VMWare. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Boy, are we sensitive about our colours.

  40. Re:Struggle? What struggle? by oakgrove · · Score: 1

    VMware has Aero support in Windows VIsta/7, which VirtualBox does not. VMware's Direct3D and OpenGL support is more advanced.

    Just thought I'd chime in on this. True VMWare will run aero. But it doesn't run it fast by any means at least in my experience on an E8400 Core2Duo running Ubuntu 9.10 as a host and Win7 guest. And VBox will run compiz in a Linux guest surprising well. Last I checked, VMWare didn't support compositing in a Linux guest. So, depending on what you're doing is what makes one better than the other in this regard.

    --
    The soylentnews experiment has been a dismal failure.
  41. Re:On everything! by MrCrassic · · Score: 1

    I thought it was as simple as putting that NIC in bridge mode with the vNIC...

  42. Re:Struggle? What struggle? by nxtw · · Score: 1

    True VMWare will run aero. But it doesn't run it fast by any means at least in my experience on an E8400 Core2Duo running Ubuntu 9.10 as a host and Win7 guest

    Performs fine for me using VMware Fusion and a Windows 7 guest.

  43. Drag & Drop by antdude · · Score: 1

    Virtual Box doesn't have drag and drop between guest and host. :(

    --
    Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
    1. Re:Drag & Drop by couchslug · · Score: 1

      It does have copy/paste to shared folders.

      --
      "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
    2. Re:Drag & Drop by antdude · · Score: 1

      Yes, but I don't want to do it shared method. Drag and drop is faster and easier.

      --
      Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
  44. I love it... by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 1

    ...when it works. It doesn't have hardware accelerated 3D, and I've had trouble getting certain things working under a VM. For example, I had a little USB device that only works under Windows 98 -- it would be great if a VM could access that, though it'd also be dangerous unless done right (I don't want my VM talking to every USB device, just that one).

    --
    Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
  45. if there are no enterprise considerations... by AbbyNormal · · Score: 1

    All these other solutions are very good, but if you have any ambitions of possible migrating boxes to a production environment you almost have to go with VMWare. While the licensing cost of an Enterprise kit is expensive, the features that you get such as High Avail/DRS/VMotion are absolutely a godsend for any system admin (plus the whitelisted hardware specs). I don't work for VMWare, but run a small business's IT and have been through the upgrade path from VMWare server to ESX server.

    --
    Sig it.
  46. Have Workstation 7 by WarlockD · · Score: 1

    Yea its very nice. Supports 3D acceleration too. I play wow in a box while my main system is network isolated:) I recommend VMplayer to everyone who wants to mess with it.

    Meh, this reviewer obviously doesn't use any of these systems professionally. Virtual box seems nice but it was only recently it support live migration. Its always been a "work in progress" from my point of view and I only really use it when I have a dd image of something I need to mess with. Not sure about Parallels though. I have heard of them but never really looked at them.

    To be honest, however, VMware really needs to catch up. I bought 7 not for the extra features but because I had a lot of vmdk files with multiple path snapshots. Hell, its why I bought the 6 upgrade from 5.

    Mind you, this is all on the workstation development side. Start talking server and VMware wins, hands down over all other technology's. But then, they are expensive enough to make people pause before they drop for a ESX license. Hell, went to the Parallels site for the first time, and that $999 price for a server license is very tempting.

  47. Re:Struggle? What struggle? by oakgrove · · Score: 1

    Yeah, I would imagine it's possible that the codebase for fusion on OSX and workstation on Linux could account for the difference. Who knows.

    --
    The soylentnews experiment has been a dismal failure.
  48. Cautionary Word by Nefarious+Wheel · · Score: 0, Troll

    VirtualBox is a lovely product, but remember it's now owned by Oracle.

    --
    Do not mock my vision of impractical footwear
  49. Virtual Box: Ubuntu Host, XP Guest and Gaming by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Recently I took the big jump and ditched my OEM Windows Vista Installation and installed Ubuntu on my home laptop (my main computer).

    I could not come to grips with the failure of Windows Vista as an operating system, and Microsoft's decision to roll out Windows 7. They shipped me trash with Windows Vista. I shouldn't have to guard my information with such vigilance. I shouldn't have to have a cleaner for this and a cleaner for that. I shouldn't have to worry about picking up some virus during general internet browsing. I shouldn't have to have two browsers loaded on one machine (win explorer and firefox). I shouldn't have to put up with the crap that is associated with any Windows distribution. There must be something better. Give me my grandmother's linux, give me Ubuntu.

    Now, let's talk about gaming, something that is tightly tied to Windows distributions due to their control of the market place. There are several games that I enjoy playing that require Windows to run, Sim City, Rome Total War, Close Combat, and a few others. So, since my move to Ubuntu, I've investigated the many options available to emulate a Windows Box.

    So, from what I can gather there are three viable options: WIne, VM Ware, and Sun's VirtualBox.
    - First I tried WIne. Quite a disappointment when it comes to ease of use. Being new to Ubuntu, it was and is not easy for me to use. And, I've had no success installing the games mentioned above. So, I've stopped trying to use it
    - Second I tried VirtualBox. I had used VirtualBox before with success on a Vista host with a XP guest for the purposes of work. So, when using it on an Ubuntu host with a XP guest, the user interface was very familiar. Along with the familiarity I experience came the same satisfaction with the user interface. I don't know if it would be any easier if Sun came to my house and installed it all for me.

    So what are the negatives for VirtualBox? From what I can tell, no support for DirectX. While I can install and play SimCity4 (uses DirectDraw). I can not install and play Rome Total War (uses DirectX). I'm no expert, but I think this is because DirectX is Windows proprietary.

    So, DirectX compatibility with VirtualBox is the roadblock between me and living happily ever after with my move to Ubuntu. But in the end, to me the value of being able to kick Windows to the curb outweighs the loss of the one game.

    Someday, game companies will realize they could be free of the all encompassing grip of Windows if they would only do the work necessary to develop for a well supported Linux distribution.

  50. Only tried VirtualBox here. by TxRv · · Score: 1

    Use it to run XP Piratebay Edition and Slackware 13, both mostly for experimenting on. The only problems I've found are the lack of a simple way to share files between them, the complete inability to install BSD due to cascading segfaults (which is weird since it'll practically run on a toaster), and the fact that I have to exit fullscreen and click outside the window to switch to another workspace in my host OS (Ubuntu). Other than those three things, I've found it pretty decent. An acquaintance of mine who is the stereotypical obsessed Mac fan swears by Parallels, and it does look nice, but the proprietary license and price tag put me right off.

    1. Re:Only tried VirtualBox here. by couchslug · · Score: 1

      "The only problems I've found are the lack of a simple way to share files between them."

      True. I just use a shared folder on the host.

      --
      "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
  51. No it isn't! by gbutler69 · · Score: 1

    The deal hasn't gone through yet.

    --
    Over-the-top Response Guy! Giving "Over-the-Top Responses" since 1970.
  52. VirtualBox + Ubuntu + gnugo by mtyson · · Score: 1

    = games in VM

  53. Parallels Desktop 5 has been out for about a month by vaporland · · Score: 1

    I guess they didn't know that Parallels Desktop V4 was superseded; after all, they are only the tech media...

    PS - I've used Parallels since V3 and I like it a lot...

    some of my fellow employees were forced to use VMWare by the IT guys (they are the art department - on Macs) and it makes their systems go nuts - SPOD, crashing, S L O W performance, hard to modify, does not play well with the rest of the system...

    --
    Ask Me About... The 80's!
  54. oops - thought they reviewed the Mac version by vaporland · · Score: 1

    never mind... sorry!

    --
    Ask Me About... The 80's!
  55. No, more like everyone forgets VMware *Player* by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Player is way better than Server. In fact, Player is almost equivalent to Workstation except it can't make snapshots and doesn't have the team stuff. And Player doesn't have that bloated retarded interface and massive install that Server has.

    With Player you can create VM's and whatever you need just like Workstation. It can also run OSX (which is the killer feature VMware has over VirtualBox). Also, VMware has a performance advantage over VirtualBox. At least in the tests I have done (eg. compiling code and things like that).

    VirtualBox is not bad though. It does have the advantage of having a free version with branching snapshot support. It lacks performance, Direct3D support, and the ability to run OS X easily (compared to VMware).

  56. Oh, the rebranding is hell. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It takes me a day each year to determine exactly what is what so I can determine what I need to budget for the next year. The licensing is crappy too.

    If xenserver had better resource management then I think vmware would be on its way out of my lab.

    1. Re:Oh, the rebranding is hell. by IgnoramusMaximus · · Score: 2, Interesting

      If xenserver had better resource management then I think vmware would be on its way out of my lab.

      Actually, take a look at the built-in linux KVM which is getting seriously competitive in some environments. If combined with an HA-NAS solution and some custom scripts it can get quite useful in large scale deployments (as long as you do not expect pretty GUI management tools). The only serious technical weakness versus VmWare ESX is at this point lack of VMotion (which is a bit of a solution looking for a problem in many real-life scenarios anyway, given that server failures where the VM still keeps running sufficiently to be spirited away alive to another host are as about as numerous as hen's teeth).

      So if you are not into some performance-fiendish-disk-io-and-cpu situations (at which point you shouldn't be really virtualizing these porkers anyway) then KVM + HA-NAS might be the trick. KVM is also capable of reading vmdk files so you can cheat using the VMWare Converter just like you would with ESX hosts, just make sure not to install VMWare tools during conversion...

      Search the net, people are doing wacky things with KVM already and soon the commercial guys will be fighting an uphill battle ... which is all for the better, IMHO.

    2. Re:Oh, the rebranding is hell. by sglewis100 · · Score: 1

      Actually, take a look at the built-in linux KVM which is getting seriously competitive in some environments. If combined with an HA-NAS solution and some custom scripts it can get quite useful in large scale deployments (as long as you do not expect pretty GUI management tools). The only serious technical weakness versus VmWare ESX is at this point lack of VMotion (which is a bit of a solution looking for a problem in many real-life scenarios anyway, given that server failures where the VM still keeps running sufficiently to be spirited away alive to another host are as about as numerous as hen's teeth).

      Seriously? VMotion is a solution looking for a problem? I use VMotion ALL the time. Here's two simple scenarios. 1) Server updates such as BIOS patches, RAID controller firmware updates, etc. Or on the hardware side - adding a new NIC. VMotion all your servers off, and you can do these types of things without downtime. 2) DRS and DPM combined to increase resource availability (move guests that start consuming a lot of resources to a more idle server) and decrease power usage (move into a datacenter that offers metered power). The former lets me concentrate on sizing production servers and stop worrying about all the surprises from our development environments. The latter lets me shut down hardware that isn't being used without anybody noticing - to save on power consumption, which is both green and saves money. Oh and then there was the time we did a spinoff, and had an entire environment ready to go before the new SAN and new blades had even arrived. Between VMotion and Storage VMotion we just moved it all onto our new infrastructure once it was arrived, configured and burned in, and continued on our merry way.

      What next, you can't think of a reason anyone would ever need SRM?

    3. Re:Oh, the rebranding is hell. by IgnoramusMaximus · · Score: 1

      All of your scenarios make an implicit (and incorrect) assumption that all (or even most) companies deploying large VMWare setups expect their production servers to run 24/7. Vast majority of businesses operate 9-5 (or similar) hours and have no such requirement. And so in all of the cases you described the standard procedure is simply to shut down the VMs on a host in question and then simply restart them after upgrade or on another host. Then there is of course the fact that Windows VMs need to be regularly rebooted for various reasons, such as Microsoft updates, thus offering a lot of opportunities to perform scheduled host modifications.

      What next, you can't think of a reason anyone would ever need SRM?

      VMotion is only useful in 24/7 operations where server downtime for scheduled maintenance is wholly unacceptable (and thus guest VMs cannot be Windows OS based ... or must be clustered and what not - which of course defeats the need for VMotion). There are very few such scenarios in real life, although a lot of corporate IT types like to pretend otherwise, I guess it somehow bolsters their egos or something, I not sure why, really. This and other kinds of what can only be described as "computer science masturbation" seems to be a very popular sport in over-funded IT shops.

    4. Re:Oh, the rebranding is hell. by sglewis100 · · Score: 1

      All of your scenarios make an implicit (and incorrect) assumption that all (or even most) companies deploying large VMWare setups expect their production servers to run 24/7.

      No, all of my scenarios make an implicit and correct assumption that I expect my production servers to run 24/7. Considering my industry (Healthcare) and some of the information coming in (diagnosis information from caregivers, to name one), that's an absolutely fair requirement. It's actually YOUR original assumption that it was a solution seeking a problem that implied that nobody needed this type of availability. Hey, here's another scenario. Before healthcare, I was working on Wall Street, for a HUGE bank on trading systems. Considering the sheer number of countries and time zones that were being traded, that to was a 24x7 requirement.

      And so in all of the cases you described the standard procedure is simply to shut down the VMs on a host in question and then simply restart them after upgrade or on another host.

      Ummm... no. Maybe for your firm, but that's just not the case.

      VMotion is only useful in 24/7 operations where server downtime for scheduled maintenance is wholly unacceptable (and thus guest VMs cannot be Windows OS based ... or must be clustered and what not - which of course defeats the need for VMotion).

      What? Nobody runs Windows in a 24x7 environment hoping to achieve 4 or 5 nines of uptime? Seriously, I'm the ONLY one? By the way, clustered apps are great, but doesn't Storage VMotion come in handy to say... upgrade a SAN without massive downtime? Or what about using VMotion to replace an entire blade chassis without downing 16 hosts and untold guests?

      There are very few such scenarios in real life, although a lot of corporate IT types like to pretend otherwise, I guess it somehow bolsters their egos or something, I not sure why, really.

      I'm not much for pretending anything when it comes to whether or not my business needs to be 24x7. From our board on down it's been told to me that it's a requirement for some (but not all) of our services. It's also an expectation of our caregivers, and in turn our patients. I don't do it for fun. Oh well, at least your username fits. There's a lot of other scenarios where a business should be 24x7, even if a life isn't at stake. Or should Google shut down at the whim of their engineers?

      Your own statement that the "Vast majority of businesses operate 9-5 (or similar) hours and have no such requirement" kinda proves my point. That some (even if a vast minority) *DO* have such a requirement. And MANY of the rest have loftier goals than 9x5 uptime. Of course VMware is not for EVERY situation, especially in it's Enterprise Plus with SRM bolted on top incarnation. But it's reinvented the way many of us keep things online that need to be. Oh, and like it or not, DRS/DPM have reinvented the way some of us provide better performance and reduced power consumption.

    5. Re:Oh, the rebranding is hell. by IgnoramusMaximus · · Score: 1

      By the way, clustered apps are great, but doesn't Storage VMotion come in handy to say... upgrade a SAN without massive downtime?

      Which of course can be achieved by taking offline and upgrading individual SANs in the redundant storage cluster and then re-syncing them back. I assume you are using redundant SAN arrays, having been on this self-professed bleeding edge of hyper-super-critical everything.

      Or what about using VMotion to replace an entire blade chassis without downing 16 hosts and untold guests?

      LOL. Some mission critical setup you got there! All this pontificating ... and then you have a massive single-point failure spot like a chassis holding 16 hosts! It just figures. All shiny V-motion-this and V-motion-that toys and no design forethought whatsoever.

      I'm not much for pretending anything when it comes to whether or not my business needs to be 24x7. From our board on down it's been told to me that it's a requirement for some (but not all) of our services. It's also an expectation of our caregivers, and in turn our patients. I don't do it for fun. Oh well, at least your username fits.

      You business and businesses like it constitute a tiny fraction of all businesses out there. And from what you described you are also a typical example of "commerce-based" ideology of simply throwing more and more hardware resources and money at the problem, in ever more convoluted contortions, so that your poorly fit, awfully inadequate OS and application combinations can be made to creek and wobble on hordes of VMs and armies of ill-fitting hosts to some sort of state of illusion of semi-reliability.

      There's a lot of other scenarios where a business should be 24x7, even if a life isn't at stake. Or should Google shut down at the whim of their engineers?

      Nice try, but truly robust systems like Google do not use virtualization in a way even remotely similar to yours, instead using custom close-to-the-OS cluster configurations written from the ground up for this purpose. They are in fact the very anathema of what you are doing.

      Of course VMware is not for EVERY situation, especially in it's Enterprise Plus with SRM bolted on top incarnation. But it's reinvented the way many of us keep things online that need to be. Oh, and like it or not, DRS/DPM have reinvented the way some of us provide better performance and reduced power consumption.

      Oh there is no doubt that there is market for all that nonsense, like there is also robust market for penis extensions, but this alone does not in any way have any bearing on the point I was making. VMotion is a solution looking for a problem precisely because if you do truly need VMotion, it is a sure fire indicator of you having screwed the pooch royally when it came to overall design of your fault tolerant systems.

      VMotion and Storage VMotion are needed in a well designed setup like a pair of boils on one's buttocks. VMotion, and particularly automated performance based VMotion encourage throwing lazilly and incoherently mis-matched VMs at bunches of inadequate hosts only to see the VMs hopping about the hosts like a bunch of deranged rabbits instead of having them stay put in a well estimated and adequate hosts. All Storage VMotion does is to encourage lazy, resource consuming activities like shuffling contents of multi-terabyte arrays back and forth for no good reason whatsoever, while at the same time hiding serious shortcomings in storage and host points of failure.

    6. Re:Oh, the rebranding is hell. by sglewis100 · · Score: 1

      Which of course can be achieved by taking offline and upgrading individual SANs in the redundant storage cluster and then re-syncing them back. I assume you are using redundant SAN arrays, having been on this self-professed bleeding edge of hyper-super-critical everything.

      Depends on the application. For some lesser ones, no, one SAN in a primary, one mirrored in a backup. Some downtime would be acceptable, but we'd prefer not to. Since some of these apps have some failover time (takes about an hour), we'd rather not have to, but can temporarily piggyback off another SAN. In reality, this hasn't really been needed yet, since all of our stuff is either strong enough to upgrade online, or nearline for backups and easily brought down. But strange, you went from saying it was never needed, to just arguing against my setup, knowing about 1% or less of how our actual infrastructure is designed.

      LOL. Some mission critical setup you got there! All this pontificating ... and then you have a massive single-point failure spot like a chassis holding 16 hosts! It just figures. All shiny V-motion-this and V-motion-that toys and no design forethought whatsoever.

      I suppose if ALL we had was one blade chassis, you might be right. You see, we have many, many, many servers. Multiple chassis, and by the way, most of our infrastructure is not blade based. But again, you went from arguing against any need for 24x7 or VMotion into trying to pick apart someone's infrastructure while not knowing anything about it.

      Nice try, but truly robust systems like Google do not use virtualization in a way even remotely similar to yours, instead using custom close-to-the-OS cluster configurations written from the ground up for this purpose. They are in fact the very anathema of what you are doing.

      True, which is why it was an example of a business that chooses to need to be 24x7, not a selling point for VMware. I'll let VMware sell their stuff.

      Oh there is no doubt that there is market for all that nonsense, like there is also robust market for penis extensions, but this alone does not in any way have any bearing on the point I was making. VMotion is a solution looking for a problem precisely because if you do truly need VMotion, it is a sure fire indicator of you having screwed the pooch royally when it came to overall design of your fault tolerant systems. VMotion and Storage VMotion are needed in a well designed setup like a pair of boils on one's buttocks. VMotion, and particularly automated performance based VMotion encourage throwing lazilly and incoherently mis-matched VMs at bunches of inadequate hosts only to see the VMs hopping about the hosts like a bunch of deranged rabbits instead of having them stay put in a well estimated and adequate hosts. All Storage VMotion does is to encourage lazy, resource consuming activities like shuffling contents of multi-terabyte arrays back and forth for no good reason whatsoever, while at the same time hiding serious shortcomings in storage and host points of failure.

      Yeah, that's it. Sure thing pal. You are clearly, 100% right, and like most arguments, of course it's black or white. VMotion is horrible, all engineers that incorporate it into their plan are incompetent, and there's always a better way. PS: Even when there is a better way, sometimes the budget precludes that option. Other times, it's just a good way to go. But keep assuming you understand everybody's environment and are smarter than all of us.

    7. Re:Oh, the rebranding is hell. by IgnoramusMaximus · · Score: 1

      But strange, you went from saying it was never needed, to just arguing against my setup, knowing about 1% or less of how our actual infrastructure is designed.

      No, I simply went from saying it was never needed to pointing out how your perceived "need" is actually a result of shortcomings of the design you were hinting at.

      You see, we have many, many, many servers.

      Which are running on hosts apparently designed to sometimes fail in packs of 16 ...

      But again, you went from arguing against any need for 24x7 or VMotion into trying to pick apart someone's infrastructure while not knowing anything about it.

      No, again, I simply pointed out that your perceived need for a VMotion-based "solution" is in fact the result of poor overall design, design which you were hinting at yourself.

      VMotion is horrible, all engineers that incorporate it into their plan are incompetent, and there's always a better way. PS: Even when there is a better way, sometimes the budget precludes that option. Other times, it's just a good way to go. But keep assuming you understand everybody's environment and are smarter than all of us.

      This has nothing whatsoever to do with who is "smarter", but it has everything to do with robust designs of fault-tolerant systems. If you are truly going to go full-tilt fault-tolerant, it is a very difficult undertaking to accomplish, but irrespective of your choices along the way the end result of any good design is inevitably lack of any need for superfluous hacks like VMotion to be part of the scenario. Sure you can use it, like people also can create software out of a spaghetti of numerically labelled branching instructions ... but it does not make me "smarter" then everyone else to point out that doing so would be a rather dumb idea in the long run. It is simply a logical fact.

      Yet you appear to take such obvious truths as a personal attack and so you seek to counter-attack with ever increasing ferocity every time you feel you need to defend your choices, which of course soon leads you to such emotionally-motivated, rash outbursts as the ones above, seeking to so desperately to prove yourself beyond reproach that in the end it has the opposite effect of creating an impression of rather dubious competence and woefully inadequate fault-tolerance of the designs you describe. Which in turn prompts me to levity at your expense...

    8. Re:Oh, the rebranding is hell. by sglewis100 · · Score: 1
      The good news is you'll get the last word if you reply, since I have neither the need nor desire to continue this all night. In closing:

      No, I simply went from saying it was never needed to pointing out how your perceived "need" is actually a result of shortcomings of the design you were hinting at.

      I'm sorry you think you have the smallest bit of insight into our infrastructure, the data centers they are in, the hardware and software configurations, the software we design as well as the packaged bits we use based on a couple of Slashdot postings. I'm not hinting at any design. It's neither on topic, nor brief enough to fit in a reply.

      Which are running on hosts apparently designed to sometimes fail in packs of 16 ...

      Interestingly enough, that's not true. I'm not sure how intimate you are with the latest gen of blade chassis, but I do know you're not intimately aware of how we use them as a small subset of our infrastructure. That said, there are certain applications in play that benefit greatly from the technology, especially our reduced maintenance and repair cost, and reduced power bill. Last I checked, our most important stuff doesn't sit there, since the latest blade chassis have "no single point of failure", but actually still have a couple, vendor claims aside. But keep on thinking whatever you think, yes, there is a place for blades in the enterprise.

      No, again, I simply pointed out that your perceived need for a VMotion-based "solution" is in fact the result of poor overall design, design which you were hinting at yourself.

      We're quite pleased with several aspects of our VMware deployments. Not all these apply to every thing we've virtualized, but we've enjoyed consolidation, power reduction, increased per-server utilization, easier hardware maintenance, easier migrations and upgrades, more flexibility on the desktop than our old, old Metaframe system, oh and incidentally, we actually have some clustered apps residing within ESX hosts, since one is not mutually exclusive to the other.

      Sorry, life isn't blanket black and white. Sometimes we use thin provisioning for storage. Sometimes we don't. Some apps run on SATA. Some run on FC. Some run on SAS, and soon I predict we'll move a little bit towards flash. Some of our stuff is Enterprise Plus licensed. A few of our things run on free ESXi. We have a few Xen boxes mostly because the apps on them work, aren't too important, and we haven't bothered to do much more than watch them run. We have a couple of really small branch locations that run Hyper-V, because that's what worked best for that particular location.

      But hey, if you can do better, you should send in a resume. Assuming you aren't always arrogant, we always are looking for good engineers. Just don't be that guy who comes in and can redo everything today the way it should be. That always works out great, right?

    9. Re:Oh, the rebranding is hell. by IgnoramusMaximus · · Score: 1

      I'm sorry you think you have the smallest bit of insight into our infrastructure, the data centers they are in, the hardware and software configurations, the software we design as well as the packaged bits we use based on a couple of Slashdot postings. I'm not hinting at any design. It's neither on topic, nor brief enough to fit in a reply.

      This is somewhat of a cop out. If true, all Slashdot conversations could be reduced to "you have no idea of Our Great Mysterious Cosmic Unknowable Infrastructure, even if I mention some bit of it explicitly, and you actually refer only to those because .... because .... its just Too Cosmic ... and Too Unknowable! Too Mysterious For You too! Why, it is so Mysterious and Unknowable that I myself have no clue what's what! Ha! Gotcha! So there!"

      Interestingly enough, that's not true. I'm not sure how intimate you are with the latest gen of blade chassis,

      LOL. Enough to know not to trust the vendor fanfare about "fault-tolerant" back-planes as far as I can throw it, anyhow. Too many fried blade backplanes locking all blades despite being supposedly "fault tolerant". Same goes for "fault-tolerant" SANs which nuke all data on their disks when one of the supposedly "redundant" controllers or buses goes kaboom, RAID arrays that lose all their crap when the one of the "redundant" RAID5+1 controllers goes to meet its maker, etc and so on. But it all looks sooo seriously cool on the glossy brochures! All those colourful diagrams!

      ... more flexibility on the desktop than our old, old Metaframe system ...

      Oh dear, next I am gonna hear that you went away from Terminal Services into one of those insane Dell / Citrix blade-based individual Virtual Desktop environments ... if so, I can only admire your gluttony for punishment via convoluted-complexity-for-complexity's-sake. But then again, its your own personal Hell to run. If what I suspect is true, its no wonder that you sing praises of VMotion, it quite fits into that mess, in a sad kind of way.

      But hey, if you can do better, you should send in a resume. Assuming you aren't always arrogant, we always are looking for good engineers. Just don't be that guy who comes in and can redo everything today the way it should be. That always works out great, right?

      Thanks for the offer but I am looking very closely into retirement these days and the only reason I am not posting this from a boat is that I can't seem to shake the clients I still have off. Something about the track record...

  57. VMWare ESX and Virtualbox user by alantus · · Score: 1

    We use VMWare ESX 3.5 heavily in my company, and the Virtual Infrastructure Client is a pain to install and run.
    The client is available only for Windows, and requires the .NET framework. It disconnects every now and then, and it doesn't try to reconnect automatically (this was fixed in VMWare 4).

    As I'm a Linux user (and my company is cool about letting me run Linux), there is no acceptable way for me to run the client.
    Using wine is not an option because the console doesn't work.
    Apparently one can use the console through the web interface, but this requires a firefox plugin which is dynamically linked to some archaic versions of libraries, so it doesn't work if your Linux installation is from the past 5 years.
    With VMWare 4 the applet does load, but the console doesn't work anyway.

    So then I tried installing VMWare Server edition just to run Windows and then the VMWare client, but the installation was trying to screw up my filesystem badly (disclaimer, I use a non-rpm based, relatively unknown Linux distro).
    Finally I hit the nail on the head by running the VMWware client under Virtualbox.

    As a result now I'm a happy Virtualbox and not-so-happy VMWare ESX user.

  58. Virtual Box Issue, and VMWare Player by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    VirtualBox is a great option, and as an OSS product it would be my first choice, but the big problem is the license.

    For a small business (sub 50 computers) where we need to run 20-30 VMs on individual machines, we can't use the PUEL license. The OSS option is not an option, as it does NOT support USB. So you still have to pay for the product. And this is where it gets hairy, because if you are a small business, you don't have a Sun representative to contact, and I have never gotten a response to emails with requests for pricing. So I can't even go to management and tell them how much it will cost.

    VMWare Player plus a single workstation license to create and configure the vms was the lowest cost option for a while. But now that VMWare Player 3 has come out, I don't even need workstation. VMWare Player can create virtual machines and install the tools into them, and change any of the important settings easily.

    So now it doesn't matter how good VirtualBox gets, it is competing against free. At the high end, IT already knows VMWare; at the low end there is no incremental cost and a clear license. VirtualBox is easy to use. But now, even if they cleaned up the USB license and distributed a precompiled binary, everyone is trained on player, the VMs are built for player, and there is a certain amount of lock in. Feature for feature, snapshots are the only difference I see, but most of our users don't need them anyway.

    I hate recommending the closed source option against an OSS one, but this call isn't one of those. It was disappointing that the article never touched on that, since clearly workstation and parallels are primarily intended for professionals. The authors license was legitimate (evaluation) but his audience of professionals? They aren't compiling their own without USB, they are breaking the license. And that doesn't help OSS at all.

  59. SPee by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You also shouldn't forget to look at the licensing and costs.
    Virtualbox is free and can be used on your work PC (where most VM's are being used).
    For VmWare (and paralels too?) you must purchase a license. The VmWare Player is here also not allowed to be used due to licensing.
    So when only requiring running VM's on your local machine, VirtualBox is the best option.
    VmWare Workstation also has its use, when you locally edit an VM and later on plan to install it on a (VmWare) server. Here the cost are worth the benefit.

    As I see it; VirtualBox is more than VmWare's player, but slightly less than the Workstation. If you intend to run the VM only on your local machine, use VirtualBox. If you plan for something greater and a whole VM infrastructure, you should better use VmWare Workstation.

    Personlly, VirtualBox is all I need.

  60. Virtualbox is really sweet by dudeeh · · Score: 1

    I use vmware mostly at work, cause well...it's kind of the industry standard these days. But for home use, I turn to virtualbox, I run a number of VM's at home and it works just great. Virtualbox was notably behind vmware a few cycles ago (say 1.x and 2.x), but all my "problems" were resolved in later versions, and now it's a real joy to use virtualbox. Usability wise it certainly get's a 10/10 from me, easy as can be. I am however still looking to make the move to KVM for home use, but the tools aren't up to the task yet in my opinion. So for now, virtualbox is a definate win!

  61. The difference is by mbessey · · Score: 1

    The difference is that the other features you listed (3D, speed, administration) are features of the software, while the "freeness" is a characteristic of the folks producing the software. If I go to read a review of a bunch of new car models to try to determine what to buy, I wouldn't expect the characteristics of the car company to be included in the review scores, unless it's relevant to the job the car is supposed to be doing.

    1. Re:The difference is by Ephemeriis · · Score: 1

      The difference is that the other features you listed (3D, speed, administration) are features of the software, while the "freeness" is a characteristic of the folks producing the software.

      Again, the "freeness" isn't a price point, the source code is open. Which is certainly a choice that the developers make while building a product... But it is also a feature.

      Open Source means that you can audit the code yourself, fix your own bugs, or roll in new features if you want to.

      Depending on the application, you may very well want open source code.

      If I go to read a review of a bunch of new car models to try to determine what to buy, I wouldn't expect the characteristics of the car company to be included in the review scores, unless it's relevant to the job the car is supposed to be doing.

      Let's say you're looking to buy some kind of commercial truck.

      You plan on driving the thing around, obviously. So you want to know about cargo capacity and mileage and whatnot.

      Now, if you plan on hauling it in to the shop any time it breaks down, you probably don't care what it looks like under the hood.

      But if you're planning on doing some of the maintenance yourself... Or if you've already got a fleet and some folks to keep them up and running... Then you probably do care what's under the hood. You might buy one truck instead of another based largely on the fact that your folks are already certified to work on it. Or because you already have the right tools or spare parts.

      Likewise, if you already have a number of coders in-house who are maintaining various bits of software, it might make an awful lot of sense to go with an open source product that you can maintain yourself.

      --
      "Work is the curse of the drinking classes." -Oscar Wilde