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Priest Tells Poor To Shoplift
Father Tim Jones has said to hell with the 8th commandment and advised the poor in his church to shoplift if they can't afford to feed their families. He said, "My advice, as a Christian priest, is to shoplift. I do not offer such advice because I think that stealing is a good thing, or because I think it is harmless, for it is neither. I would ask that they do not steal from small family businesses but from large, national businesses, knowing that the costs are ultimately passed on to the rest of us in the form of higher prices. I would ask them not to take any more than they need, for any longer than they need.I offer the advice with a heavy heart and wish society would recognize that bureaucratic ineptitude and systematic delay has created an invitation and incentive to crime for people struggling to cope." Of course, church leaders, business owners, and the police strongly disagree with the father's moral relativism.
I don't think that qualifies as moral relativism; the guy seems to be basically saying stealing is wrong, but not as wrong as letting your family starve. Of course slashdot is a very strongly capital L Libertarian viewpoint so I'm sure if anyone else responds to this story they'll be a lot more disapproving.
the problem with comunism is that if you trust everybody to take just what they need, you will be eaten alive. Nature gives the same opportunities to all species, and we as humans have a choice to take what we need, or to take what we can. So now we proudly wear our mp3 players, cellphones and so on, claiming we need them.
I believe the priest is right, but naive. What we need is real education so that people to stop being selfish idiots, not to make it ok for the poor to steal from the rich.
new sig
There's nothing funny about this. There's people starving. This isn't an idea solution, but at least it is one.
On a similar note, I know someone who distributes lockpicks and lockpicking manuals to the poor so they can get out of the cold at night. Where I live, there is lots of heated, unused space, and yet people are freezing outside. WTF?
I just hope they don't end up getting caught.
I think he's trying to echo the truism (read: not a command) found in Proverbs 6:30-31:
Men do not despise a thief if he steals
To satisfy himself when he is hungry;
But when he is found, he must repay sevenfold;
He must give all the substance of his house.
As someone who embraces liberty religiously (by being a Christian) as well as politically (by leaning hard toward Libertarianism) and philosophically (by being both), I don't condemn the necessities thief either, although in my experience people steal alcohol and electronics far more than they do bread. I do believe, however, that it would be far better if caring individuals were to meet the needs of these people, as already happens through rescue missions, etc., rather than the person resorting to theft, which in all likelihood will only further degenerate his situation.
The costs aren't passed on to the stores, the costs are passed on to every single employee who would have received a raise, more hours, better health care, or a bonus. He thinks the bigwigs who control the stores will actually take money out of their own pockets to cover this? HA! They'll have their store owners cut hours, pay, fire people, etc. just so they don't have to. What a moron....
England, home of Jonathan Swift, who also had a modest proposal...
Sometimes orators makes shocking or controversial statements to make a point.
From TFA:
"In his sermon Sunday Jones ... added that his advocacy of shoplifting was a 'grim indictment' of society and a plea for help for the most vulnerable."
He put his boots up on the table and made a face. "The sig," he smirked. "You can waste your life in search of the sig."
Germany used to have a paragraph in it's laws ("Mundraub") specifically indemnifying under certain circumstances people who steal for the purpose of immediately preventing starvation.
In the context of a modern social system where novdoy has to starve any more this paragraph was scrapped. For countries with a backwards or otherwise lacking social system it would make perfect sense. I think there is a human duty to help those at immediate risk of death as long as it doesn't put the helper or his family at similar risk.
Exactly, one may or may not agree, but it is not relativism.
It is clearly a hierarchy. And duh... Feeding your children is more important than not stealing.
Relativism would be the implication that the hierarchy itself was relative. Relativism would be something like: We believe random acts of murder are worse than random acts of theft in America, but in XXX things are different.
Relativism removes any universal ethical thinking and leave us only with historical/cultural morals.
I'd hope all of the obvious things like foodstamps and church charity were done first. I also acknowledge that some people fuck up. If one loses money and its one's one fault ... I don't think that doesn't mean they shouldn't steal to help their kids. They should do what they need to do and try and make sure they pay the price not their kids...
That is easier said than done and likely one in this situation will fail, but legality is also a separate concept from ethics. The ethical picture here is complex, the legal picture is simple.
I am on my way to Costco now to steal some carrot cake and a big screen tv!
My bad, and my apologies to the Land of Erin. Swift was indeed Irish.
My point is that if this priest had gotten up on Sunday and said,"We should be better to the poor," I doubt even the parishioners would have noticed. But since he said, "You know what? Frack 'em, go take what you need from the greedy buggers and the Lord will let it slide..." and suddenly we're talking about it half a world away...
He put his boots up on the table and made a face. "The sig," he smirked. "You can waste your life in search of the sig."
Spend a little time as a property owner that's tired of bums pissing in the corners in your property you're going to try to show the next morning, or what happens more often, they light fires inside anyway despite of the heat, and burn the place down.
Really? THAT'S what happens more often? So you're telling us that not only have bums burned down your buildings, but they do it SO OFTEN that you can tell us it's the more common result?
Forgive me if I call you a FUCKING LIAR. I propose that no building you own has been burned down. Instead, you are a property owner who uses the FEAR of a bum burning down your buildings to justify the draconian property security that you favor.
I think I'll tell my parishoners to go piss on your property. On the bright side, it should make it harder to burn.
The reason I disagree with the priest condoning shoplifting is that it cements a stereotype that the poor can't be trusted.
I know this story is based in York, but here in the US, the poor couldn't even follow his advice. The problem stems from corporate food chains normally do not locate their stores within urban areas ( I know they don't where I live ). If it weren't for "mom-n-pop" grocery stores, the residents would have to travel to the suburbs to get groceries.
Community leaders are trying to entice national store chains into more urban areas. The theory being that mom-n-pops charge more for food and don't offer the selection of foods compared to a national chain. If a US priest condoned shoplifting, he would actually do more harm to his community than good...
These comments are my own and do not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of my employer or colleagues...
Let's see. If you are low income, most children are getting breakfast and lunch free at school. You are responsible for the evening meal and weekends. For those meals you get WIC and Foodstamps AND should be working to make an income. Spent WISELY Foodstamps should keep you from going hungry. When I say wisely I mean: Rice, potatoes, vegetables, beans, fruits, etc. Meat is a luxury (if you don't believe me travel in India or China some and you will see). Soda pop, chips, prepared foods, etc. are not cost effective. Going hungry is different from not getting to eat everything you want. Parents that are given resources then don't spent them wisely are like an irresponsible teenager that tells you that their allowance wasn't big enough to cover their expenses. You would say to them: 1) you should get a job to supplement your allowance or 2) you need to spend your allowance more wisely. You wouldn't tell them to go steal to make up the difference. IMHO churches do not let their congregants go hungry. Get involved in a church, you and your children will be better off for it. In addition, many churches have food pantries that you can get assistance from until you get back on your feet. If children are going hungry with all the help available, shame on the parents. Stealing is not the answer because humans are by nature quite lazy and it represents the "easy way out". Rationalizations: I didn't study when I was given a free education because I was: lazy, arrogant, shortsighted, so I'll just steal. I don't want to work, so steal. The work that is available is beneath me, so steal. I have made a long line of bad decisions in my life and it is someone else's responsibility, so I'll steal. We agonize when people arrive at the situation they are in, but why don't we every ask: Do you bear any responsibility for your situation?
I suspect the priest is falling into the liberal trap of looking at the final situation and feeling sorry for the individual (he probably wouldn't be much of a priest if he wasn't quite empathetic). He genuinely cares but is genuinely wrong. Stealing is wrong because it goes to the very fabric of our souls and God knows this. It temporarily solves a problem but leaves a bigger problem the thief's psyche that tends to drive them even further down the rabbit's hole until there is no right or wrong whatsoever.
If the Government can be the "Lender of Last Resort" for the Wealthy,
If we can pony up seven to eight hundred BILLION dollars because the banks got greedy,
If we can bail out any Fortune 500 company with it's hand out,
If we can provide every form of corporate welfare imaginable to shield the Rich from the harsh realities of the market,
Then why can't the Government be the Employer of Last Resort? We've got infrastructure falling around our ears, we've got social problems galore, why not simply take every unemployed person in America and put them to work fixing problems far too long neglected?
And yeah, let's put tax rates back to where they were in 1950 to pay for it, and ask any who complain why they hate America?
He put his boots up on the table and made a face. "The sig," he smirked. "You can waste your life in search of the sig."
What about "though shalt not steal" does he not understand?
- Zav - Imagine a Beowulf cluster of insensitive clods...
Just off the top of my head...
Four hundred fifty two thousand people fixing bridges.
Four hundred fifty two thousand people on standby for the next inevitable Natural Disaster.
Four hundred fifty two thousand people building public access broadband.
Four hundred fifty two thousand people fixing schools.
Four hundred fifty two thousand people beefing up Police Departments so that cops on the street don't have to panic and overreact to every incident like they're the last man in the zombie apocalypse.
Four hundred fifty two thousand people preparing for the coming demographic wave of retirement.
Four hundred fifty two thousand people trying to get to Mars.
Four hundred fifty two thousand people addressing the root causes of gang enlistment in Los Angeles.
Four hundred fifty two thousand people building free public colleges.
Four hundred fifty two thousand people investigating corruption.
Four hundred fifty two thousand people enforcing enviromental laws.
Four hundred fifty two thousand people investigating OSHA violations.
Four hundred fifty two thousand people auditing the IRS.
Can you imagine the good we could get done with an honest-to-God army to address the issue?
He put his boots up on the table and made a face. "The sig," he smirked. "You can waste your life in search of the sig."
The only people I know who go hungry are those who trade their food for drugs.
What should people with chronic medical conditions do so that they don't have to choose between food and the medication that keeps them alive?
cause thats not really stealling, you're just tresspassing and eating your fill, but you're not supposed to steal more than you can carry in your belly
Of course, church leaders, business owners, and the police strongly disagree with the father's moral relativism.
Why "of course"? Church leaders, and even business owners and governments all encourage rampant over-breeding among the lower classes, along with a healthy dose of ignorance and reliance upon so-called moral "authorities" like this priest.
More poor people means more churchgoers, more recipients of government "services", and more "consumers". The negative externalities of overpopulation, crime, unemployment and needless warfare are passed on to the rest of society.
In modern civilization, when shocking numbers of people have no idea where food even comes from, they might as well steal it from grocery stores. It's not surprising that a priest would suggest such a solution. Crusades have gone out of fashion of late. And it is equally unsurprising that the church's solution would basically entail passing the problem onto others.
"I assumed blithely that there were no elves out there in the darkness"
After all, it's not like they even earned it. And if they say stealing is okay, why not let them live by the consequences?
While we're at it, why not kidnap this priest and see what sort of money you can get for him on eBay.
Seriously, someone should take this moron aside and tell him two wrongs don't make a right.
I mean the work that's way, way past overdue. I mean the "Let's fix the bridges and levies the civil engineers have been screaming about" work. I mean the "let's bring electricity to rural America" work. I mean the "Let's build an interstate highway system" work.
Have you seen public schools in America? There are two elementary schoold within a ten-minute drive of my place. Both of them have leaks in their roof. They actually had to cancel classes twice this week when the main line to the school flooded the place. My fire department has been complaining for years they can't cover their area of responsibility without more men, and sure enough, a house about two miles from here just burned to the ground waiting for the trucks to arrive. We had a very suspicious police shooting in my city last year, and the cops all came out crying that they don't have enough men to handle potentially dangerous situations.
There's an overpass in my city that's been condemned. Politics got the condemnation lifted so traffic is flowing again, but everyone knows it's not IF, it's WHEN, it falls. When it goes, it's going to take a bunch of office buildings with it. Everyone I know avoids that route.
These are all problems I see first-hand in my city, but I'll bet it's the same story elsewhere. Forget makework. We've got enough real problems to keep an army busy for years.
He put his boots up on the table and made a face. "The sig," he smirked. "You can waste your life in search of the sig."
You can get a loaf of bread and a dozen eggs at Walmart for $2.50. A typical beggar could earn that in less than an hour of begging in front of the store. Here in the US, we have subsidized farms, put entire villages out of business, and monopolized entire agricultural sectors so that food can be extremely cheap. Even the poorest of the poor can afford a meal if they are willing to work or beg a little.
Furthermore, anything small enough to shop-lift is most likely not going to be nutritious.
Bart: Uh, say, are you guys crooks?
Fat Tony: Bart, is it wrong to steal a loaf of bread to feed your starving family?
Bart: No.
Fat Tony: Well, suppose you got a large starving family. Is it wrong to steal a truckload of bread to feed them?
Bart: Uh uh.
Fat Tony: And, what if your family don't like bread? They like... cigarettes?
Bart: I guess that's okay.
Fat Tony: Now, what if instead of giving them away, you sold them at a price that was practically giving them away. Would that be a crime, Bart?
Bart: Hell, no.