Slashdot Mirror


IT Workers To Get Fewer Perks, No Free Coffee

dasButcher writes "While the economy is showing signs of recovery and tech stocks posted double- and triple-digit gains in 2009, IT workers are facing a less hospitable workplace in the coming year. Many employers say they're going to continue trimming budgets, particularly in human resources. Rather than giving up head count, they're planning to trim 401k contributions, eliminate bonuses, curtail travel and, dare we say, shut off the free coffee (it wasn't that good anyway)."

100 of 620 comments (clear)

  1. So? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Every job is different. Every career is different. Things ebb and flow. For a long time, IT workers were spoiled primadonna. Now they're just another cost center. Guess what, the economy is jacked up. Budget cuts have to happen. IT is a necessity, but so is efficiency, cost control, etc. Welcome to the real world you big f'ing crybabies.

    1. Re:So? by armanox · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Now they're just another cost center. .

      No, we (IT) has been viewed as a cost center since the 90s. And sometimes as glorified janitors...

      --
      I'm starting to think GNU is the problem with "GNU/Linux" these days.
    2. Re:So? by BitZtream · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You say that as if its not the truth ...

      Reality check: We ARE glorified janitors and automobile mechanics.

      Very few in IT are actually worthy of being treated as something special, and regardless of how many people here don't understand it, most slashdotters are not 'special' with their skills today. 10 years ago, slashdot users had automatic street cred, today, its just another haven for wanna-bes with a few geeks still mixed in from the 'good ol days'

      --
      Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
  2. No Coffee = No Code by glaese · · Score: 2

    I know many programmers whose fingers can't move unless well lubricated with caffene :-)

    1. Re:No Coffee = No Code by Alarindris · · Score: 2, Funny

      You're a musician? ;)

    2. Re:No Coffee = No Code by digitig · · Score: 5, Funny

      If you need it to function, you have a problem and should cut back or quit.

      I need oxygen to function, but I'm worried about cutting back or quitting. I'm told the withdrawal symptoms are pretty bad.

      --
      Quidnam Latine loqui modo coepi?
    3. Re:No Coffee = No Code by Abcd1234 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      On the flipside, caffeine, in moderate doses, enhances mental focus, and for developers, that can be a real boon (I work just fine without caffeine, but if I have to buckle down for an intense coding session, a little caffeine and a pair of isolating headphones is, hands down, the best way for me to get in the flow and stay there for a prolonged period of time).

    4. Re:No Coffee = No Code by SharpFang · · Score: 5, Insightful

      A cow is a machine that converts grass to milk.
      A programmer is a machine that converts coffee to code.

      --
      45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
    5. Re:No Coffee = No Code by Enderandrew · · Score: 2, Funny

      Let's not stereotype all programmers.

      I hear Mac coders prefer expensive herbal teas.

      --
      http://blindscribblings.com - Tasty pop-culture in conceptual fashion.
  3. Paging Mr. Vader - something slipping through by Gothmolly · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The more you screw your employees, the more they will find ways to screw you. Turn off Gmail and Slashdot? Fine, I'll take a once-an-hour smoke break. Hack my 401k? I'll sit and stare at the ceiling. Bust by balls about travel costs? See if I don't have a "family thing" next time and can't go. People will take what they feel (rightly or wrongly) is their due, whether you give it to them or not.

    --
    I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
    1. Re:Paging Mr. Vader - something slipping through by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It seems particularly counterproductive to do so on the really cheap; but warm and fuzzy, nonmonetary perks. In even modest quantities, the unit cost of a cup of mediocre coffee isn't quite zero, but it sure isn't high. Certainly lower than the per-unit cost(either for you or for your employees) of having them nipping out to Starbucks for 15 minutes, rather than the kitchen for 5).

    2. Re:Paging Mr. Vader - something slipping through by Gothmolly · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I bet you also think that your employer "pays half" of your Social Security tax. All those things I mentioned, which you classify as perks, are part of the whole package - your salary, your benefits, your coffee, it all equals X dollars per year. If they remove one or more of those, its a pay cut, pure and simple.

      I earn my job, which is why I have one. Do you ?

      --
      I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
    3. Re:Paging Mr. Vader - something slipping through by nine-times · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You have this awful sense of entitlement. Free coffee? Have to justify travel expenses? C'mon the company does not exist to serve you, you exist to work for them and provide value at a minimum of expense.

      No, we really don't exist to work for companies and provide them with maximum value at minimum expense. Thinking we do... now that's an awful sense of entitlement.

    4. Re:Paging Mr. Vader - something slipping through by assertation · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Sounds like a great attitude for making yourself unhappy in your job and/or becoming unemployed.

      I agree with you, employers can't enforce the enthusiasm and company loyalty that promotes better productivity, but they can certainly chip away at it by taking away things.

    5. Re:Paging Mr. Vader - something slipping through by Another,+completely · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The travel expenses thing has gotten crazy for me. It's like the accountants think the company is doing me a favour letting me go to an exciting foreign hotel, experience the interior of exotic taxis, and meet the charming foreign customs officers. I do not consider it a perk, and being treated as guilty until proven innocent in claiming back the expensive "approved" hotel (instead of a more affordable and convenient one that's not on the list) is just enough to let me accept the less productive option of constant telephone meetings with people whose faces I have never seen.

      That is, I suppose, their goal. Reduced overhead looks good, while lost business and reduced productivity just looks like market forces that are being proactively addressed by more careful attention to reducing expenses. The accountants are taking important action to tighten belts and address the failing ability of the business divisions to deliver top-line growth. The damage they do to the company actually looks like a responsible way to address the business situation. I think they have cause and effect backwards, but it's their decision to make, not mine.

    6. Re:Paging Mr. Vader - something slipping through by arkham6 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Exist may have been a wrong term. Try "You are at your job to work for them...."

    7. Re:Paging Mr. Vader - something slipping through by Rogerborg · · Score: 2, Funny

      Filthy Communist. Doing a half assed job is the American Way.

      --
      If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
    8. Re:Paging Mr. Vader - something slipping through by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I am at my job to exchange my skills (brain time; me thinking about your problem), for money and benefits.

      I will attempt to do so at the rate the market will bear.

      If the company wants to lowball their skills vendor; the one with whom they've had a long-term positive relationship; the one who has institutional knowledge that helps the vendor understand their unique business needs ... that's up to the company.

      You may find somebody else to put at my desk, but you will *never* be able to replace me. That's why you pay me the big bucks.

    9. Re:Paging Mr. Vader - something slipping through by Monkeedude1212 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      That's the situation I'm in right now. Our bonuses have been cut 3 years consecutively now. We've always paid for our own coffee. As for travel, they understand that if they don't pay the costs, we aren't going. Only because it'd be illegal for them to do so.

      Yeah, the biggest part of it is that the company is EXPANDING. We've opened 6 new locations last year. Easy to buy property in these hard times. But they just can't seem to afford bonuses this Christmas.

      But they know that if I were to walk out, it'd be tough to find a job.

    10. Re:Paging Mr. Vader - something slipping through by MadKeithV · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If the company's only options are laying you off or cutting benefits to save costs, suck it up and be happy you still have a job.

      If you think you can do better, feel free to walk.

      The ones that *will* walk are the ones the company really doesn't want to lose.
      Then again, an organization that thinks eliminating free coffee will be a real benefit to the bottom line would not know better even if they get stuck with all the people that are too rigid, dumb or lazy to find a better job.

      And even then, if it's a large enough organization, with a smart manager, you might see someone shelling out the money for the coffee themselves just to keep the good workers happy. If you want to survive as an IT company, stop treating people as interchangable resources.

    11. Re:Paging Mr. Vader - something slipping through by jollyreaper · · Score: 4, Funny

      Please.

      You are at work to work, you are not at work to read slashdot and gmail.

      Mr. Pot, allow me to introduce you to Mr. Kettle.

      --
      Kwisatz Haderach
      Sell the spice to CHOAM
      This Mahdi took Shaddam's Throne
    12. Re:Paging Mr. Vader - something slipping through by Afty0r · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It seems particularly counterproductive to do so on the really cheap; but warm and fuzzy, nonmonetary perks.

      Every good manager knows that it is far more effective (from an employee motivation POV) to spend a reasonable amount of money providing small and helpful perks like this, than it would be to take the same amount of money and distribute it among the employees as part of their next raise.

    13. Re:Paging Mr. Vader - something slipping through by aes123 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Hate to break it to you, but employees are one of the stakeholders at a company. Contrary to popular belief, a company's sole responsibility is NOT to its shareholders; a company needs to properly balance its responsibilities to it shareholders, employees, and customers. Employees are not ONLY an expense; very often, they are also the reason that a company has a profit to worry about in the first place. If a company spends .1% of its revenue on employee perks like coffee and it earns them 1% in productivity, that sounds like a fantastic return. Focusing on expenses only is back ass-wards, shortsighted, and often counterproductive.

    14. Re:Paging Mr. Vader - something slipping through by JaredOfEuropa · · Score: 4, Insightful

      That last paragraph sums up exactly what is wrong with a lot of companies these days, what happens when you let the MBAs and the bean counters run the place. Cutting corners like this, but also outsourcing or the practise of firing staff and hiring contractors, sure looks good on the balance sheet... often because the cost is the same or higher but it'll be OpEx instead of CapEx, or comes out of a different budget. The truth is that in many cases these things end up costing the company dearly.

      Remember what they say about accountants: they know the cost of everything, but they don't have a clue about the value.

      --
      If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
    15. Re:Paging Mr. Vader - something slipping through by Enderandrew · · Score: 4, Interesting

      My last company was "employee owned", which meant the executives had all the stock and were able to give themselves dividends whenever they felt like it.

      In 2007, the company posted a record year, despite being in the newspaper industry. Staffing levels were decreased, no one got raises, but the executives paid themselves nicely.

      In 2008, they practically matched 2007 for profits despite being in the newspaper industry. They started massive layoffs and pay cuts around the board, but the executives matched their 2007 dividends.

      In 2009, I and most of the IT staff finally walked.

      --
      http://blindscribblings.com - Tasty pop-culture in conceptual fashion.
    16. Re:Paging Mr. Vader - something slipping through by rAiNsT0rm · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I once worked running the IT dept. for a bank, and seriously, during a high-level meeting including the president, CFO, myself, and a bunch of VPs they sat and laughed while discussing, for 15 minutes, how they found even crappier plastic utensils that were super cheap (I calculated the savings which equaled $7.00 per month). The combined salary in that room for 15 minutes could have bought Oneida silverware for every kitchenette, and it ended with them stating: "haha, they are so weak and flimsy people will just stop using them and bring their own!" and had a good laugh.

      I was probably never so disgusted with human beings as that moment.

      --
      http://teasphere.wordpress.com - A little spot of tea
    17. Re:Paging Mr. Vader - something slipping through by WinterSolstice · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Agree with that - when people are pressured to leave, the first ones to go are the ones who can easily find jobs. You know, the best talent.

      The people who can't find jobs stay.

      I'd make a comment about loyalty, but being loyal to a company in this era is like being loyal to an abusive spouse.

      --
      An operating system should be like a light switch... simple, effective, easy to use, and designed for everyone.
    18. Re:Paging Mr. Vader - something slipping through by Sobrique · · Score: 2, Insightful

      They'll do it, because they can. When times are tough, companies will squeeze you, even if they don't technically need to. That's because it keeps them 'competitive' which means they can get better profit off 'the market'.
      If you can move on for something better, then do so. If you can't, you get to shut up and take it. It's not very nice, but it's how it is - if you can't do better, then your skills aren't worth as much as you think they are.
      What a lot of companies don't understand though, is that loyalty cuts both ways - it's _VERY_ easy to do a half-assed job in all but the most trivial of situation (e.g. number of labels stuck to number of boxes) and even then it's not exactly hard. You make your employees miserable, and they won't quit, nor will they outright fail to deliver, but standards will drop, because they just don't care enough to do any more than just the minimum to keep their job - no point busting your balls for more pay, if there's no more pay to be had, right?

    19. Re:Paging Mr. Vader - something slipping through by DaFallus · · Score: 2

      Employees are also a company's greatest asset. For some reason most managers and corporate officers forget this. Also, I have never met anyone who works every second of the day while in the office, especially when it comes to upper management. Taking five minutes to check your personal email or scan the headlines on slashdot doesn't really hurt anyone or get in the way of productivity. Taking small, inexpensive perks away from your employees, especially when in the name of cost cutting, does nothing but create resentment and signal to your most valuable talent that its time to start looking for employment elsewhere.

      --
      No one cares what your captcha was

      Houston TX, USA
    20. Re:Paging Mr. Vader - something slipping through by IANAAC · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You may find somebody else to put at my desk, but you will *never* be able to replace me. That's why you pay me the big bucks.

      I used to think that way about my kills too. When you grow up, you'll realize that there are indeed people who know as much as (or *gasp* more!) than you do.

      And here's another little tip: they'll do it for cheaper too. That's one of disadvantages of competing globally.

    21. Re:Paging Mr. Vader - something slipping through by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 5, Funny

      I can only assume, if they were really such awful human beings, that their real motivation was to ensure that none of the provided cutlery was sharp or stiff enough to stab them to death with.

    22. Re:Paging Mr. Vader - something slipping through by RubberChainsaw · · Score: 3, Funny

      You may find somebody else to put at my desk, but you will *never* be able to replace me. That's why you pay me the big bucks.

      I used to think that way about my kills too. When you grow up, you'll realize that there are indeed people who know as much as (or *gasp* more!) than you do.

      And here's another little tip: they'll do it for cheaper too. That's one of disadvantages of competing globally.

      Is the global assassin's market really that cutthroat?

      --
      I welcome our new 99% overlords.
  4. You kill the Joe... by Commander+South · · Score: 2, Funny

    You make some mo'

  5. Hacking off your nose to spite your face by Zey · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Anywhere that would cut out coffee from the budget is quite frankly insane. It's a minuscule expense compared to the HR budget and improves productivity dramatically when people would otherwise be flagging (early mornings for night owls, afternoons for early birds).

    The ability to provide free, legal performance enhancing drugs is one of the few negligible-cost productivity boost techniques available. You'd have to be both petty and highly incompetent as a manager to do away with it.

  6. Re:the school district model by DJRumpy · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Yeah, we've gotta be more concerned about feeding that CEO machine...

  7. No bonuses? by jimbobborg · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I haven't received a bonus in about two years. It was a $1000 check. And the only reason I got that little gift is that I MADE money for my company. One of the perks of being a contractor for a small company. Of course, that contract ended, so I went to work for a larger IT company, and haven't received a bonus since. Working directly for a company is nice, but contracting pays better.

  8. that has been going for a long time by mapkinase · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Perk decrease has been going for a long time since dotbomb. In my previous company they used to have all kinds of free snacks (bagels, jams, cream cheese, fruits, salads) and happy hour with free hot food every Friday, then one sunny day it all ended abruptly, only caffeinated coffee remained (that reminded me of the practice of banana companies of the XIX century that encouraged workers to chew coca leaves).

    I work for government now and we do not have any free food at all. Good thing is that people can bring all kind of personal electric equipment like toasters, microwave ovens, fridges. We have kitchens on each floor where all this stuff is stored. I personally have a tea maker, an espresso maker and a coffee grinder in my office.

    It's better this way, guys.

    --
    I do not believe in karma. "Funny"=-6. Do good and forbid evil. Yours, Oft-Offtopic Flamebaiting Troll.
  9. Re:I wish they would by OhHellWithIt · · Score: 4, Funny

    Nasty instant Coffee?

    That's nothing. Where I work, we have go outside, and chew the leaves and beans off coffee bushes ourselves.

    Lucky sod! Your coffee's fresher than everyone's!

    --
    "Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past." -- George Orwell
  10. Fine, but I want more vacation by cryfreedomlove · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I would sacrifice all of those perks for more paid time off. HP offers new employees something like 12 days PTO and then it schedules 10 days of forced shutdowns per year to get accumulated PTO off the books. This means any new employee gets 2, count them, 2 days to schedule at their own convenience. That's deeply disrespectful. (I don't work at HP but I have friends that do).

    1. Re:Fine, but I want more vacation by hattig · · Score: 2

      Fix your employment laws. Life isn't just for working, but when the law is not there to benefit employees, the employees will get stiffed, guaranteed. 12 days is pitiful. The lawful minimum in the UK is 20 days plus public holidays (8 days), and nobody in IT would accept less than 25 days after a couple of years working after university. Other EU countries have more, yet none of these countries has employee productivity problems.

      Now what I don't mind is sacrificing salary to have unpaid leave, earning a week a year that you can use the next year or build it up over time - earning an unpaid sabbatical in effect, even if the time you can take it is quite restricted to less busy periods of the year.

    2. Re:Fine, but I want more vacation by kionel · · Score: 2, Insightful

      They'd define it as "The Civilization that regularly has the best quarterly statement."

      I'm horrified by how abusive Corporate America has become. Their avarice is astonishing. Worst of all, no one seems to have the guts to just say "No!" any longer.

      Allow me to explain: I left a fairly good self-employment gig in mid-2009 to rejoin the corporate workforce. (Family medical reasons made me look back to the corporate world.) Even in this crap economy I found myself working for an IT organization within two months of starting to look. Figured I'd got lucky.

      Ha!

      My firm is a nightmare. The company expects people to live to work. No discussion. No expectations. Your life is your job. It's utterly Dickensian.

      There is no hyperbole here. 14 - 16 hour days are common. Co-workers regularly put in 20+ hour days (yes, days) and are expected to be in the next morning. A friend of mine was dragged away from his cancer-stricken father's bedside on Christmas Eve by a Senior Director, despite not being on-call and being on vacation, because the SD demanded he look into a problem.

      Here's the weird part: Most of the employees love it here. Oh, they are the most unhealthy co-workers I've ever met (at least a quarter are dealing with chronic health issues), and their productivity stinks, but they all insist through fatigue-glazed eyes that this is "...a great company." Worse, they even go as far as to say "Just look at our stock price."

      Sadly, I'm the only one of the group who says wacky things like "You're putting your health at risk working like this!", or "If you continue to do the work of three people -- badly -- the company will never realize that we actually need three people."

      It's a wasted effort. The employees have drank deep of the Kool Aid, and don't want to even consider a different world view.

      Given that -- and given that Corporate America in the post-Bush years is still too powerful and unchecked -- I'm actually giving real thought to using my dual UK citizenship and heading back across the pond. Sure, I'll miss some things in the states, but not enough to kill myself for a freaking quarterly statement.

      --
      "'My Country Right or Wrong'is like saying 'My mother, drunk or sober,'" -- Chesterton
  11. Re:I wish they would by ByOhTek · · Score: 2, Funny

    Why do you have your own person to turn cows into orks in the next cubicle? Is that a big thing where you work?

    --
    Self proclaimed typo king, and inventor of the bear destroying coffee table (patent not pending).
  12. You're lucky - everyone else has been there by Provocateur · · Score: 3, Interesting

    We've long had a person head up a 'coffee club', collecting from the java
    junkies on the floor every month. Enough money was left to have a group lunch
    at month-end. AFAICT the coffee machine was there long before, industrial type
    -- 2 open carafes with an orange one for decaf, you probably saw one in a
    diner somewhere -- not the 10 or 12 cup coffeemakers you get from Costco.

    401K? Long gone from the employer's side, we're waiting for the first
    anniversary announcement, if they will reinstate their contribution. I feel
    less of a team player if they did not.

    Yup, not just in IT. This was the travel industry. Welcome to the club, gents.

    --
    WARNING: Smartphones have side effects--most of them undocumented.
  13. 401k???? by Lord+Ender · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Wait: we don't get pensions anymore. 401k contributions ARE our retirement plans. Cutting 401k is the same as saying "we care about you SO little, that we hope you die hungry and cold in your old age."

    --
    A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
    1. Re:401k???? by JoeWalsh · · Score: 3, Funny

      No, no, no! They're just trying to help you by encouraging you to be responsible for your own future. In the past, the company was stealing your opportunity to be fully responsible for your retirement. Now, they feel bad about that, and are giving that responsibility back to you. It's time to celebrate!

      Next month, they're going to stop stealing your opportunity to work twice as hard for half as much pay. It's a glorious future that your corporate masters have planned for you. Celebrate, slave, celebrate!

  14. Fewer 'perks' please? by rve · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Some company perks that I just don't want and will never use:
    - I don't want a company celphone. I have my own phone, I don't want to have to keep track of business and private calls, I don't want my boss to get a list of all the calls I make in a month, and I don't want to have to carry around two phones. The company phone is lying in the closet, unused, the subscription fee is being paid for nothing.
    - I don't want a company laptop. I don't need one for my work (customers *naturally* never allow machines on their network that they didn't provide themselves). For private use, it's useless. It does not have the specs I would have chosen for my own laptop, and I'm not free to modify it or change the software on it. It's been lying in the closet, unused. It's worse than useless, as I can't justify buying one for myself as long as I "have a perfectly ok laptop gathering dust in the closet".
    - Company presentations preceeded by Paintball or Casino: please keep it serious and treat me like an adult. I don't come to the office to play games with colleagues, just give the presentation.
    - Free coffee: I don't care. It's nice if it's there, but it's such a minor issue that if they want to save the shockingly huge amount of money that goes into rent and support of these machines, by all means do so, I'm not going to work less hard if I have to buy my own drinks.

    1. Re:Fewer 'perks' please? by SharpFang · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You're wrong about company phone.
      Company phone is what you switch off the moment your work hours end. You use it on business travels, you use it during rush and in case you promise to be catchable.
      Private phone number is the one which you keep secret.

      As for laptop, YMMV. If you're a field technician, your company laptop will be invaluable for you because it has what your work requires, not what you would buy for yourself.

      Free coffee... only as long as I know the money they save on my coffee land in -my- pocket, not CEO's. Otherwise, I prefer to get the free coffee if I can. I worked where I had to buy my own and it really adds up if you count it over a year.

      --
      45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
  15. When did coffee become so expensive? by Lazy+Jones · · Score: 2, Insightful

    While in larger companies doing away with free coffee could be a sensible alternative to laying off perhaps 0.5% of the work force, you have to wonder about the margins and sustainability of a corporation that actually *needs* to do that. As for smaller companies - if they can't even afford free coffee, it must really suck to work there.

    I can only recommend managers to think about how much free for employees (good) food and drinks actually cost you compared to the part of the salaries that goes towards pizza/drinks at work otherwise, what the benefits are (healthier employees, less time wasted ordering stuff or going out to buy it) and how it may or may not make people feel more attached/loyal to your company. As for coffee - think of the headaches from caffeine deprivation you might induce if you don't provide it. ;-)

    --
    "I love my job, but I hate talking to people like you" (Freddie Mercury)
    1. Re:When did coffee become so expensive? by Sandbags · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Coffee is a cost like any other. To support employees, certain costs are expected. A computer to sit at, an ergonomic chair, pens and paper, ink, janitorial services, bathroom supplies, phone and DID number, and more.

      A complete coffee service costs less than $1 per employee (that drinks it) per day if bought in industrial bulk. there are dozens of other costs that far exceed that. many companies simply use an honor system and place a can with a slot near the coffee pot and ask folks to spare $0.25 for each cup, and many not only break even on that, but actually profit, and use the money for company and area parties.

      As we roll out IT improvements, costs there are shrinking, making us more competitive. As we roll out the IP phone system, we're shifting a whole building of employees into at-home workers (we already have about 3,000 of them), which is not only a huge facility cost savings, but there's tax incentives to do it too. Desktop imaging pretty much has put the quash on most helpdesk calls. going paperless for most things is also reducing costs greatly. Salaries have been flat for 2 years in a row. We're more profitable than EVER in the company history. Curring coffee would be seen as nothing more than an profiteering decision and a slap in the face to HR and productivity, and we'd actually loose some good employees over it I'm sure (Hots mainframe operators LIVE on coffee and coffee alone it seems, and those guys are REALLY hard to come by and claim way in excess of $100,000 salaries).

      --
      There is no contest in life for which the unprepared have the advantage.
  16. It's An Employer's Market by RobotRunAmok · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Twenty years ago, companies jumped-up IT guys and made them "Web Masters" -- coders, server maintainers, content creators and (in their own minds) designers -- giving them six figure salaries. Every company, no matter how small, felt it needed to have a "server room" and maintain their e-mail service locally. The Marketing secretary always needed help figuring out how to print her boss's agenda out of Lotus Organizer.

    Times changed.

    Now, companies buy website templates for sixty bucks non-exclusive (three grand exclusive) and they're sitting in a server room at a place called Dreamhost or Hostgator. The content is maintained via a CMS run by the Marketing secretary. Employers and employees are using Gmail and other cloud-based e-mail systems because the lines between personal and work IT space have become so blurred. Nobody needs help printing anymore, because an entire generation has been raised on the Internet and personal computer systems.

    People will take what they feel (rightly or wrongly) is their due, whether you give it to them or not.
    And employers will replace them with 20-something go-getters with better attitudes and more up-to-date skills, and at half the salary.

    1. Re:It's An Employer's Market by tsstahl · · Score: 2, Insightful

      And employers will replace them with 20-something go-getters with better attitudes and more up-to-date skills, and at half the salary.

      Where is this elusive species to be found in quantity? The specimens I am familiar with have a hard time spelling "Word", much less using it. To them "The Web" is Yahoo, Gmail, and Facebook. And finally, SMTP is text slang for Suck My Teats and Poonani (less vulgar translation).

      Yes, they can print and download, but in my experience deep knowledge of the plumbing behind the Internet is fading, not expanding.

    2. Re:It's An Employer's Market by Moryath · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Now, companies buy website templates for sixty bucks non-exclusive (three grand exclusive) and they're sitting in a server room at a place called Dreamhost or Hostgator.

      Getting hacked regularly by some turd who wants to take over the server to make into a warez repository, spam relay, look around for credit card records, or replace all the images with "I kno u dont want 2 see thiz but herez tha ded iraqi babies tha ebil US killz."

      The content is maintained via a CMS run by the Marketing secretary.

      Who barely knows how to spell, let alone write, and thus the site looks incredibly unprofessional. But hey, you get what you pay for. And the exec who set it up this way got a blowjob from the Marketing Boobs...er Secretary.

      Employers and employees are using Gmail and other cloud-based e-mail systems because the lines between personal and work IT space have become so blurred.

      Which works great right until either their net connection goes down, or Gmail has an outage, or AT&T's crappy network is shitting again, and they're bugging the IT guy to "FIX MY GMAIL ON MY IPHONE FIX MY GMAIL ON MY IPHONE FIX MY GMAIL ON MY IPHONE."

      Nobody needs help printing anymore, because an entire generation has been raised on the Internet and personal computer systems

      Right up until they jam the printer, or come up with a document with nonstandard margins, or do 1001 other things that the lusers always do.

      The level of competence in the average office is still right about zero. The difference today is that rather than having respect for the skills of those who can actually handle technology, the lusers have been told they have the right to treat IT staff as somewhere between the House N****r and Corporate Slave. Think about it. Would you stand over the guy fixing your car yelling "FIX IT FASTER I WANT IT NOW FIX IT FIX IT"? No? IT staff get that crap all day long. They are stuck in the no-win scenario wherein if required preventative maintenance means taking something offline for a couple hours, they are yelled at, but if they don't do the preventative maintenance, they get yelled at for not doing it when the system REALLY goes tits-up. They get nickeled and dimed for wanting to implement real security precautions such as proper firewalling and password security, but then blamed for "not doing enough" when Ditzy McSluttyboobs the secretary goes download-happy and unleashes half a dozen worms inside the corporate network.

      And increasingly, they're supposed to be "supporting" systems spread over so many locations and they're only given proper admin control over their own locality, meaning that they get yelled at for telling someone that the problem is at Site #3, and yes, it's being worked on, and no, they don't have the access to fix it directly here at Site #2, and then Dipshit McBrainlesssuit sends an email to his bosses about how things are "always down" and "these guys aren't doing their jobs" in order to try to "force" the poor IT guy to "work faster" on something that isn't even under his control.

    3. Re:It's An Employer's Market by Rhaban · · Score: 5, Funny

      And employers will replace them with 20-something go-getters with better attitudes and more up-to-date skills, and at half the salary.

      I'd like to see how those 20-something will use their up-to-date skills when faced with my 80% cobol environment.

  17. No worries about the coffee: by Penguinisto · · Score: 5, Funny

    You can always fit a small refrigerator inside of a std. rack (lay a couple of 2x4's across the bottom to hold it up, and make sure the rack doors are on it, front and back). Put your own coffee maker on top of it, and you're set. Tape a few Dell server front panels to the inside of the rack door while you're at it. If you're really into disguises, wire up a few LED's to those panels.

    Now if only there was a way to squeeze a big-screen TV in there... and no, not sideways.

    --
    Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
    1. Re:No worries about the coffee: by JustOK · · Score: 5, Funny

      Vertical racks would work. Tell management that such an arrangement can increase downlink speeds by about 9.8 m/s^2

      --
      rewriting history since 2109
  18. Re:the school district model by SnapShot · · Score: 5, Insightful

    IMHO, getting rid of free coffee is a huge mistake. In the scheme of things it's a tiny expense and you're going to lose far more in terms of people bickering about the coffee fund, people running out "on break" to buy coffee, and the basic office environment.

    --
    Waltz, nymph, for quick jigs vex Bud.
  19. Re:the school district model by TheSeventh · · Score: 4, Interesting

    At the company where I work, they cut off the free coffee last summer, for a cost savings of $80,000 a year. Not exactly a tiny expense, basically one engineer's job.

    Now if we can just get that one engineer whose job it saved to get everybody coffee . . .

    --
    Just because you're paranoid, it doesn't mean that they're not out to get you.
  20. Re:the school district model by ByOhTek · · Score: 3, Funny

    Nope, not a burger joint within two miles of here even if they did.

    Do you get your bridge for free, perchance? Does it have a good goat throughput?

    --
    Self proclaimed typo king, and inventor of the bear destroying coffee table (patent not pending).
  21. Re:the school district model by farrellj · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Back in the olden days of Computers...like 10 years ago...I was one of the many who was against unionization of IT workers. Now, having been badly treated by both small companies, and one of the largest single-digit level manufacturers of computers, I see that I was wrong. Today's 'sweatshops' are in computer assembly factories, and in call centers. They both use Skinner like systems with seemingly random rewards and punishments to keep people in line.

    These days, digging ditches is a more profitable and satisfying job...fully unionized, with guaranteed vacation and benefits, and a grievance system that actually works!

    ttyl
              Farrell ...note, I don't dig ditches.

    --
    CAN-CON 2019 - Ottawa's only book oriented Science Fiction Convention! October 18-20, Sheraton Hotel, Ottawa, Canada h
  22. A simple cost vs benefit analysis by jockeys · · Score: 2, Interesting

    industrial coffee maker (can make enough coffee, continuously, for at least 20 people) - $242.07
    http://www.amazon.com/VPR-Commercial-12-Cup-Pour-Over-Warmers/dp/B000BN7W84/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=home-garden&qid=1262704523&sr=8-1

    cheap coffee (weeks supply for 20 people) - $14.50
    http://www.amazon.com/Folgers-Ground-Regular-PAG20015-Category/dp/B00006IDJO/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=home-garden&qid=1262704605&sr=1-2

    coffee filters (months supply for 20 people) - $5.23
    http://www.amazon.com/BUNN-BCF250-Commercial-Coffee-Filters/dp/B0006VNO7Y/ref=sr_1_12?ie=UTF8&s=home-garden&qid=1262704669&sr=1-12

    so for about 250 initially and a monthly recurring cost of about 50 bucks. hmmm, 20 sleepy employees who are sluggish and inattentive for several hours a day (lets say 2 hours, or 1/4 of their shift). now, per employee that's a monthly cost of $2.50 to not diminish that 1/4 of their shift.

    how little would you have to be paying your employees to not think that's a good idea? pennies a day???

    furthermore, this isn't much of a cost cutting measure. even if I have 10,000 people working for me, I'm only paying $2500 a month to give them coffee (excluding the cost of the machines, which last a decade) or $30,000 per year, which is nothing for a 10,000 employee company.

    --

    In Soviet Russia jokes are formulaic and decidedly non-humorous.
  23. It's in the Constitiution by twmcneil · · Score: 2, Funny

    It's called the Juan Valdez Amendment to the Constitution. It's there really. Look it up. It guarantees all workers the right to free coffee during work hours. Ratification of that Amendment has been written into my employment contracts for over 20 years.

    --
    "The ferrets, they're every where I tell you!"
  24. Re:the school district model by cashman73 · · Score: 2, Funny

    That sounds sort of like the plot of a Dilbert cartoon,. . .

  25. Putting on the dick moves by jollyreaper · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I'm a firm believer that if a business wants to show it cares, it'll say it with money. Because that's the only thing that matters to a business. if it's parting with cash in ways it does not absolutely have to, that says something. But barring that, there's cashless ways to show care. There's not much you can do if you're doing IT-as-a-service where you need to be available for fixed hours but if you're doing dev work that doesn't go on a fixed schedule, give flex time! You worked late during the week, take a half day Friday. Costs the company nothing, same amount of work is getting done. Need a dr's appointment? For the love of xod, we're not going to ding you four hours of vacation time for it.

    I don't really get the silly stuff like pool tables and video games. That just seems like prolonging time spent at work and in a non-productive fashion. I would put more of a premium on getting the max amount of work done in the shortest possible time so people can go home. Quality of life is about having a life outside the office. In-house masseuses, catered lunches every day, that seems a little wasteful. But cutting 401k, cutting fucking coffee? Major dick moves.

    Employers are doing it because it's an employer's market out there. But rest assured, these employers will reap what they sow. The best employees are always the most mobile employees. If your best feel dicked over or if there's even the slightest concern about company stability, they will be out the door in a heartbeat. And it's now accepted in IT culture that you will NEVER make more money at the same employer. The only way to raise your pay is to move to another organization because your current one will never justify paying more for the person they already have, no matter if you're learning new skills, taking on more work, or improving the bottom line.

    --
    Kwisatz Haderach
    Sell the spice to CHOAM
    This Mahdi took Shaddam's Throne
  26. Re:the school district model by MBGMorden · · Score: 4, Insightful

    My guess though is that if you're spending $80k per year on coffee, then it's for a hell of a lot of people, and that $80k expense (and a single job) IS tiny on that scale. If an $80k expenditure costs a job but improves morale of a few thousand employees enough to make up for it in productivity gains, then it's the right thing to do.

    --
    "People who think they know everything are very annoying to those of us who do."-Mark Twain
  27. Re:the school district model by Enderandrew · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I tend to agree. When the economy goes south, and you either stop giving raises, or start giving paycuts, sometimes the best way to keep employees happy is with relatively minor perks like these. I worked for a company where there was a hiring and raise freeze during a merger. No one was happy. They expaned the free coffee into free hot cocoa as well. It was a minor thing, but the gesture seemed to make people happy.

    --
    http://blindscribblings.com - Tasty pop-culture in conceptual fashion.
  28. Coffee? Give me my damn heat back. by nitefallz · · Score: 2, Interesting

    We lost free coffee a very long time ago, along with 401k contributions, bonuses, etc. On the cutting block this year besides staff and salary? HEAT. Originally each department was able to manage their own temperature within a 4-5 degree range. That's been taken away and the entire temperature for the company has dropped to the point where virtually everyone is wearing a jacket or thick sweaters in each of the departments. There's a good number of people across the hall wearing fingerless gloves. It's one thing to not be able to work efficiently by not having that caffeine kick, but shivering and not feeling your fingers is a real productivity stopper, let a lone the looming paycut.

  29. Well, in my day... by jlowery · · Score: 4, Funny

    we mixed a little dirt in a cup of cold water and called it instant. If you wanted creamer, you added drop or two of Liquid Paper. Tasted like shit, but the extra chemicals and minerals kept you going.

    --
    If you post it, they will read.
  30. Re:the school district model by Enderandrew · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Unions are great in concept, but I've yet to see an example that I like. My buddy works for a large company where it was basically required (even though it is illegal to do so) that he join the union to be hired. He pays dues. He gets no real benefit. And they tell him what he can and can't do.

    Most strikes hurt employees considerably more with lost wages than they gain in negotiation. Humans are corrupt. Just as management is corrupt, so is union leadership. It just becomes another thing for someone to flaunt around in a pissing contest, rather than use the position to better life for union members.

    Conversely, there is the free market model. My last job kept laying people off, and gave me two pay cuts. I assumed there weren't better jobs because of the economy, but I finally looked. I moved to a much better company where not only am I treated better, but I almost doubled my salary.

    The reason my last company was able to cut salaries and treat people terribly is because we allowed it. When I was hired there about 3 years ago, the IT staff was about 50 people. When I left it was maybe a dozen. I was one of 3 SysAdmins standing, and they weren't even filling my position when I left. I've since heard the other 2 SysAdmins have put in their resignation. Now the company will be forced to try and hire a new staff in a hurry. More than likely, they're going to pay more to hire new staff than keep those they ran off.

    --
    http://blindscribblings.com - Tasty pop-culture in conceptual fashion.
  31. Re:I wish they would by jjinco33 · · Score: 2, Funny

    You must work here at IBM too

    --
    Meh.
  32. No more coffee? Finally! by Asylumn · · Score: 2, Funny

    Taking away the free coffee in my office would be considered a benefit. An act of mercy, really. It is a vile substance that resembles coffee in name only.

  33. Re:Get a union. by M8e · · Score: 3, Funny

    More than ionized workers?

  34. Re:the school district model by Dishevel · · Score: 2, Funny

    Wow u guys drink (or waste) a lot of coffee!!! I think its great that everyone took a little cutback to save another employees job, but $80k is seems to be too much to spend on coffee!

    I have a coffeemaker ($40) a thermos ($20) and I drink over a liter of coffee a day, fair trade organic Bolivian full city roast mostly. Not counting the cost of running water or bicycling/driving to/from the coop where I get it, it costs me less than $5 /week.

    and your handle is cmdr tofu You don't happen to live in San Fransisco do you?

    --
    Why is it so hard to only have politicians for a few years, then have them go away?
  35. I agree. Mostly. by Petersko · · Score: 2, Interesting

    "Every job is different. Every career is different. Things ebb and flow. For a long time, IT workers were spoiled primadonna. Now they're just another cost center. Guess what, the economy is jacked up. Budget cuts have to happen. IT is a necessity, but so is efficiency, cost control, etc. Welcome to the real world you big f'ing crybabies."

    I'm dramatically overpaid for what I do if you look at it from a day-to-day effort perspective. I do my work, but my dad is a heavy duty mechanic, and I'm a chair jockey. I make twice what he does, and he puts in an honest day's effort every single day. It's not fair.

    But I'm a troubleshooter by nature, and every once in a while I pull a large rabbit out of the hat and save the day in a big way. I like to think that closes the gap between contribution and compensation a bit.

    But I'm posting this from work...

    1. Re:I agree. Mostly. by GooberToo · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Hope this joke puts things into perspective for you.

      A factory has a major problem that closed their manufacturing line. A consultant is brought in. The Consultant wanders around the factory floor, listening, poking. Finally, he takes out a small hammer and taps gently a few times on one particular piece of machinery. The factory line roars back to life, production once again in progress. The factory managers are ecstatic.

      A week later, the factory recieves the invoice from The Consultant. The price was $900 for less than one hour of work. The factory's business people fumed and asked The Consultant for an explanation. The Consultant offered to send in an itemized invoice. The business people said, "yes, please do."

      A second invoice arrived. It had two line items. Item 1 was, "Rectifying Problem with Hammer Hit....$1" Item 2 was, "Knowing Where to Hit the Hammer....$899"

  36. Getting... Laid... off... by happy_place · · Score: 4, Interesting

    My kids think the day I came home with office furniture, boxes of office supplies, company teeshirts, and random promotional paraphenalia as one of the best days of Daddy's working life. It was like Christmas to the kids for each of them to get a lucite paperweight with our latest chip in it. Of course, unbeknownst to them, it was the day the company folded, and I was laid off. Still kinda cracks me up... it's all about how you look at things, as to whether they're they end of the world, or just a new world of adventure. :)

    --
    http://www.beanleafpress.com
  37. Re:the school district model by Spykk · · Score: 5, Funny

    I have always thought of programming as the art of converting caffeine into an executable. Coffee is part of the cost of doing business.

  38. Re:the school district model by oscarwumpus · · Score: 5, Funny

    You might want to look at the math. If you, as an individual, drank $400 of coffee per year, that would lead to $80,000 of coffee per year covering over 200 employees. Or 100 employees who drink twice as much as you do. Or 50 employees who suffer severe shakes, headaches, and moments of telepathy. Or 25 employees who swim in tanks filled with the spice melange and wrap space-time so heighliner ships can reach their destinations. And that may be money well spent. Or 1 to 5 employees who were selling coffee to the other employees using company funds.

  39. Re:the school district model by SnapShot · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I found a quick quote that claimed "the general rule of thumb for office coffee service pricing is $60 to $120 per employee per year." So he's talking about a business with at least 667 employees and probably close to 1000.

    So, if the average employee is 0.1% more productive with free coffee getting rid of the free coffee was a bad business decision and the Cxx (COO, CFO, whatever) who made that decision should be beaten to death with his own intestines or fired.

    --
    Waltz, nymph, for quick jigs vex Bud.
  40. Re:the school district model by MadKeithV · · Score: 5, Funny

    I hear that Chinese HR managers are 20 times cheaper too.

  41. Re:the school district model by flabordec · · Score: 2, Funny

    the Cxx (COO, CFO, whatever) who made that decision should be beaten to death with his own intestines

    Wow! That's a bit harsh just for a 0.1% loss of productivity!

    --
    "I see undead people" Warcraft III - Necromancer
  42. Re:I wish they would by jefu · · Score: 2, Funny

    Careful that you don't get the coffee bushes and the coca bushes mixed up.

  43. Re: the school district model by C10H14N2 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    My office has free coffee -- a dozen kinds of Keurig pods -- and a free soda fountain. We all got pretty miffed when they down-sized the free cups, but, meh.

    It's about $25-50/week not spent at the overpriced retail joints. Figure 200 employees at ten minutes, once a day to run downstairs, that's 166 hours of lost productivity -- or somewhere between $5-10K PER WEEK. To the employees, that's about $250K of collective benefit. To the employer, it's about double that in productivity not lost to everyone schlepping downstairs for coffee and soda.

    On the other hand, my mother's office eliminated their coffee service, one kind, giant urn of Yuban, claiming it was an unnecessary expense. That manager got a bonus for reducing overhead...

  44. The pendulum... by dghcasp · · Score: 2, Funny

    The pendulum swings one way, then back the other...

    Side 1: "If I can't wear sweat pants, bring my dog to work, have my own office, telecommute when I feel like it, and drink company-provided beer every day starting at 3:00, then I won't work here."

    Side 2: "You're 35 and you haven't had a heart attack yet? Perhaps I should replace you with someone who actually works hard."

  45. TFA is from "Channel Insider"? by CodeBuster · · Score: 2, Informative

    TFA is a press hit from a PR firm people. Seriously, "Channel Insider"? They aren't even trying very hard to hide the fact that they are a bullshit marketing rag full of advertising copy, "special advertising sections" (you know the ones that try to disguise themselves as "articles" and actually useful content), and "articles" submitted by PR firms on behalf of paying clients to score a "Press Hit". I would put the credibility of anything coming out of "Channel Insider" at just about zero.

  46. Re:the school district model by Lisandro · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Preach on, brother. Coffee is the REAL vitamin C!

  47. This post... by sean.peters · · Score: 5, Insightful

    ... is a mixture of pure unsupported assertations, and anecdotes pretending to be data. Any evidence to show that "strikes hurt employees more through lost wages than they gain in negotiations"? In fact, there's a lot of history that shows that unions did, in fact, make lives better for not only their own workers, but for everyone - and not only in the form of wages, but also in things like medical benefits and safe working conditions. For example: the five day work week - brought to you by the AFL-CIO.

    Enough with the union bashing, already. Read a little history of the labor movement, and then see what you think.

    1. Re:This post... by Unlucke · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Past performance is not an indication of future results.

      Just sayin'

    2. Re:This post... by Uberbah · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Bullshit. The problems in Detroit are due to executive mismanagement and the lack of universal health care. But way to hate on your fellow workers, for daring to negotiate decent health insurance and retirement benefits.

    3. Re:This post... by farrellj · · Score: 2, Informative

      Yes, actually. For those who still have jobs. Remember, those workers were not the ones designing crap quality cars, and paying hundreds of millions of dollars of bonuses to execs who basically did nothing but not do badly that year. One year's worth of exec bonuses at the Big 3 would pay for all of the benefits of the UAW workers for the next 10 years.

      ttyl
                Farrell

      --
      CAN-CON 2019 - Ottawa's only book oriented Science Fiction Convention! October 18-20, Sheraton Hotel, Ottawa, Canada h
  48. Re:the school district model by networkBoy · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I was part of a recent double merger (where two companies split a division off their parent companies to form a third "independent" company).
    They flew damn near *all* the managers from one company over to see the other execs for a face to face.

    One company in the US the other in Europe...
    The airfare alone could have paid my wages, healthcare, perks, etc. for two full years. The per-diam and hotel costs could have paid an additional year and change of the same.

    Forgive me for being a little bitter that they laid me off (one of only two developers for an in-house designed test system).

    In a twist of justice by karma, there were two different HR groups who were handling the "getting rid of people we can lose" work. One was handing out golden handshakes to get people to retire early, the other got rid of redundancies. Now, you see I was the primary owner for lab maintenance (but there were others that could do that job), and I was the backup for about half a dozen other functions closely related to the lab I maintained. Software development was one of those backups when our primary dev was on holiday, or out sick, or simply overloaded with too much work at one time (we seemed to have a feast or famine cycle that no one could figure out how to smooth out).

    The other dev took a golden handshake, while I was redundified. I picked up a job with the parent company, in a lab, doing much the same kind of development work as before I started maintenance, with a manager I worked with years before in yet another division of the same company. (Lesson kids: never *ever* burn bridges unless you have no choice. Swallowing some pride now can save your bacon big time later).

    When they realized that both their devs had been let go they tried to call either of us back. The senior dev declined, and I offered to provide contract assistance at a nearly extortionist rate (easily 3x what they were paying me). It was pointed out to me that I was unlikely to get hired if asking that much money, to which I replied "who said I wanted to be hired?"

    Yeah, so I should stop rambling now... but your flight thing kind of triggered me.
    -nB

    --
    whois gawk date unzip strip find touch finger mount join nice man top fsck grep eject more yes exit umount sleep dump
  49. Re:the school district model by datapharmer · · Score: 2, Insightful

    While that may have worked at your business I disagree. I recently had a discussion with someone at another IT company and we were bashing just this practice. It seems that every couple months there will be a round of paycuts or firings followed by bowling night/movie night/new fancy coffee maker and donuts in the break room... to the point that those who have been around a while shudder every time they see or hear about any "perks". This may work in some places, but in general engineers and IT people are not morons.... we can see a trojan horse when it is placed in the break room.

    --
    Get a web developer
  50. All you got to do is look outside the US by SmallFurryCreature · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Unions work great in the rest of the world.

    Americans seem to have to wrong idea about what Unions are about. It has become a lethal fight in a system that basically says: The worker has no rights.

    In Holland unions work together and it is not unusual for the unions AND the employers to unite and tell the government to go screw it self. Like on wage freezes recently. The government said all wages (except its own oddly enough, an oversight I am sure) should be frozen and in some sectors employees and unions said that they had already sorted things out and wouldn't do it.

    ideally, government, employers and unions/workers should all work together to create a working society with give and take and the realization that just because you are on opposites ends of the negotiation table, that doesn't mean you have to be enemies with no common goals.

    --

    MMO Quests are like orgasms:

    You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.

  51. Re:the school district model by infinite9 · · Score: 4, Funny

    He pays dues. He gets no real benefit. And they tell him what he can and can't do.

    Sounds like my home owner's association.

    --
    Disconnect your television. Do your own research. Draw your own conclusions. They're probably lying. Don't be a sheep.
  52. Re:the school district model by geekoid · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I'm in a engineer Union, COPPEA. It's awesome and works well.

    "Most strikes hurt employees considerably more with lost wages than they gain in negotiatio"
    False.

    "so is union leadership. "
    Yes they can ebcem corrpupt, but that doesn't mean they wil;l or that the employees can't change that.

    "The reason my last company was able to cut salaries and treat people terribly is because we allowed it. "
    If only you had a common group that appointed a leader to negotiate with management~
    Unions are how you don't let an organization treat you terribly.

    It's sounds like that company is positioning it self as an attractive to potential buyers.

    I work 4 10s, have great benefits, and have protections so I can discusses merits of an idea without worrying about recourse or in fighting.

    Your argument that humans can be corrupt and therefore everything is corrupt is laughable myopic and quite frankly, stupid.

    --
    The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  53. I got 25 paid days off by SmallFurryCreature · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Not including official holidays.

    You want better working conditions? Then stop kowtowing to the man every chance you get.

    US (and british) companies have become VERY good at making employees think they are doing them a favor by employing them. It works great for them and allows them to fire people and make the rest glad they got a job in a recession that is SO bad not a SINGLE big company executive has had his/her bonuses cut. Odd that. 10% unemployment yet the bonuses for the top happen the same as before. Gosh I wonder where they got the money from. And all the rest of the sheep think is "well thank god it isn't my flesh the farmer is getting fat on". Probably because no sheep can think ahead to next year.

    You are willing to trade "perks" like free coffee (and really, if that is a perk you got amazingly low standards, is free toilet paper a perk as well? Free tap water?) for real free days. Great, that is smart thinking sheep. Just what they want, and next year, they change the traded for days back to forced days again.

    Years ago, when the company in the 21st century thought it was okay to turn vacation days into forced vacations, people should have walked out. They didn't.

    Oh and for a history lesson, find a SINGLE year in history in which companies have NOT had an excuse to make cutbacks on personal. The recession, 9/11, the bubble, Y2K expenses, crash of the yen, cost of the dollar... there is always a reason. Now find a SINGLE year in which any of these reasons have led to a salary reduction for the people deciding that their should be money saved.

    --

    MMO Quests are like orgasms:

    You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.

  54. Re:For a group of alledgedly smart people by Abcd1234 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Try and get your learn on before making yourself sound like a jackass:

    The findings revealed increased activity in the frontal lobe, where working memory is centered, and the anterior cingulum, which controls attention, in volunteers after consuming 100 milligrams of caffeine, the equivalent of about two cups of coffee. These areas showed no increased activity when the subjects drank the same fluid without caffeine in it.

    "The increased activity means you are more able to focus," Koppelstaetter said. "You have more attention and your task management is better."

  55. Re:the school district model by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Wow, what timing. This morning when our company announced that it was canceling the coffee service to save money, I immediately asked what that savings would be. $200 a month was the answer, for our location which employs roughly 130 people. I was floored. If our financial situation is that serious, maybe I need to start looking for another job?

      - Long time lurker, first time commenter.

  56. Re:the school district model by Jawn98685 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The answer isn't to unionize to get paid more than the job is worth, the answer is to find another job.

    Really? It seems to work quite well for the ditch diggers, or rather, for the ditch diggers who were smart enough to organize and negotiate a living wage through collective bargaining. Meanwhile, the Fox News-watching ditch diggers are proudly toiling for $11 an hour and no benefits.
    I'd say that "the answer" is to get that union card.

  57. Re:the school district model by KC7JHO · · Score: 2, Insightful

    And now that all the IT people are from China, we need an HR manager that understands the culture... and keeps the same time schedule... and that feels more approachable to our new employees, and is payed along the same lines as our new IT staff. Hmmmm yes, you just outsourced your own job... idiot!

  58. Re:the school district model by mcgrew · · Score: 2, Informative

    That's your "trickle down" economy

    That "trickle down" always reminds me of The Outlaw Josey Wales: "Senator, don't piss down my back and tell me it's raining." Wealth doesn't trickle down, it flows upwards. Wealth is created on the factory floor, the fry cook's stove, the programmer's cube. The suits in the corner office don't create wealth, they merely aggregate and control it.