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Subversives In South Carolina Mostly Safe
sabt-pestnu sends in an update on our story about South Carolina and subversives. "According to Eugene Volokh, the Raw Story article has got it backwards. Westlaw says that the cited statute dates back to 1951, when a lot of anti-Communist statutes were being enacted nationwide. What brought Raw Story's attention to it may be that South Carolina is once again trying to repeal the archaic law. And in any event, a half-century-old case (Yates vs. United States, 354 U.S. 298 (1957)) took most of the teeth out of such laws."
Mostly harmless.
The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
How do I withdraw my application?
How is this law, real or not, any different than thousands of other laws on the books in various states that aim to make something illegal by requiring that you register your 'group', business or service?
Anyone wanting to do something contrary to the morals of the standing legislators is likely to fall foul of one or more laws with the same miasmal qualities. For instance, look at sex laws; they are nothing but attempts to stop 'subversive' elements of local society, or at least make it so you can fine them if they do those 'subversive' things, and generally make them unwelcome in the community.
I say we should hang those that enact such laws if it were not so hypocritical ....
Support NYCountryLawyer RIAA vs People
What's the point of being subversive if it's not forbidden?
If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
Very often laws on the books stop mattering not because they are repealed by the legislature but because they cease to get enforced or get enforced very rarely. The classic example of this is laws against pornography which still exists in many jurisdictions but by and large don't matter since almost no one is prosecuted. Unfortunately, you then get every few years someone like John Ashcroft in charge who decides that prosecuting porn makers should be a high priority of the federal government and then assigns multiple agents full time to prosecute videos made of consenting adults. So getting rid of obsolete legislation when one can is a good idea since it can't come back and bite you when an extremist manages to get elected or appointed to a relevant position.
Westlaw says that the cited statute dates back to 1951, when a lot of anti-Communist statutes were being enacted nationwide.
When I went to college in the 70s, I had a number of jobs at the same state U I was attending. All University employees, including me, were required to sign an oath that they were "not a member of the Communist Party or any other organization which advocates the overthrow of the Government by force or violence". Naturally, I had to wonder what kind of namby-pamby insurrectionists Moscow was infiltrating our way, if they were willing to violently overthrow the government, but not lie about their willingness to do so!
This is not quite a dead issue. Quite recently, a Quaker hired to teach remedial math at Cal State East Bay lost her job after somebody noticed that she'd amended the mandatory oath she'd signed when she was hired. (The oath requires the signer to "support and defend" the California and U.S,. constitutions; not wanting to violate her religious principles, she'd inserted the word "nonviolently".) She was eventually rehired after the usual legal squabble, which ended with the state AG ruling that the unamended oath did not obligated the signer to do military service!
Al Queda of South Carolina has declared a victory!
does this mean we can revoke all the mod points gained by the tin-foil-hat wearers when the first story was posted?
Prosecutor: Tell the court why you think he is a traitor to this country.
Miss America: I think Mr. Mellish (Woody Allen's character) is a traitor to this country because his views are different from the views of the president and others of his kind. Differences of opinion should be tolerated, but not when they're too different. Then he becomes a subversive mother.
- "Bananas" (1971)
Why do you want to know?
Why do you care?
Are you working for the Government?
If said mod points were revoked, how would you know that they were? Is there a way of checking?
Do you know of a way to track said people? Script? tracking MAC addresses on ethernet cards? How?
Forgive the typos and the untimely response, but the anonymizer running off of the proxy off of the anonymous proxy bouncing through an out of business Icelandic banks web server through the FDIC monitoring and the CIA's NSA connection that goes directly to the Vatican communicating with the Dali Lamma's servers in India hosted through the Mongolian underground via a Russian oligarch's oil company into the California's school system and then being hosted by the anonymizer in Canada and then down to where I live is having a problem with timing out. It may have to do with being by Sam's Internet cafe in downtown Cleveland on the corner of Pine St. and Andrews.
What I do to hide my identity and location.
It was a similar kind of law passed back then. I don't know if it was repealed or is just being ignored because it was declared unconstitutional. Someone named Ober had pushed it.
There were a lot of these laws passed during the time Senator Joseph McCarthy was conducting his witch hunts ^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H investigations. There was also something at the time called the House Un-American Activities Committee that did similar things (often involving guilt by vague association) . Then came the famous Army-McCarthy hearings ("point of order, point of order", "sir, have you no decency") that discredited McCarthy. The HUAC seemed to melt away, various laws went to court and were declared unconstitutional, and the whole situation wound down.
Lawrence v. Texas (2003) threw out laws that banned private sex acts between consenting adults.
Even after 2003, there is still anti-gay discrimination when it came to consenting acts between teenagers compared to the same acts between consenting heterosexual couples:
1) I think some states still have laws on the books that make gay sex a felony, those laws are theoretically enforceable against a 17-year-old gay couple.
2) Likewise, in states where there is no Romeo and Juliet law, straight couples can have sex all they want if they get married first. Gay couples, well, good luck getting a marriage license outside of a handful of states. Even when the laws are non-discriminatory, the application can be - some prosecutors may look the other way when an 18 year old man has sex with a 17 year old almost-woman, but they'll be happy to throw the book at an 18-year-old man with a 17-year-old male youth. Or the prosecutor may not be biased but the parents of the girl may be willing to not press charges but the homophobic parents of the 17 year old boy may insist on it.
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
What's that? You mean a story that seemed to require all involved to be complete morons was revealed to be incorrect? You mean there was more to the story, which revealed that what really transpired was actually sort of reasonable? Shocking! Surely this is the first time this has ever happened.
Those damned activist judges on the Supreme Court, always working against individual liberties! What we need is more state governm...
Oh, wait.
"They were pure niggers." – Noam Chomsky
Dude, I've gotta explain why I thought they were talking about subversion, which I'm sure will go over real well.
The Christian religion has been and still is the principal enemy of moral progress in the world. -- Bertrand Russell
in Oklahoma
For justice, we must go to Don Corleone
The government should just stop recognizing marriage.
(the big downside there would likely be companies that stopped extending health benefits to families of employees. I can't think of any other real big ones (most other stuff can easily be handled with contracts))
Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
Were all traitors, terrorists, radicals and patriots. Not all labels were applied at the time. An important part of the right to bear arms is denying the state the right to monopoly of force. "And what country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure." Jefferson
every anarchist is a baffled dictator. Benito_Mussolini
There are plenty of archaic and unconstitutional laws still on the books; written and passed in some vain sort of attempt to change people. Look at any of the states that still have Drug Tax Stamps despite the very obvious evidence presented in Leary v. The United States. Mostly these laws are passed, I guess, to add one more charge to some unlucky schmuck to keep them away from "good" society longer. There is a larger problem here that needs to be addressed by better persons than myself.
the problem is that you would be outed, ostracized and otherwise derided
you defeat communism because it is ideologically inferior. you don't defeat communism with thuggery. let communists speak openly and without fear of reprisals with their views. and let them fall and fail on the incoherence of their flawed ideology
unfortunately, we see the same braying thuggery "socialism! socialism! bark! bark!" today as in the mccarthy era. as if socialism is anything but medicare, the interstate highway system etc.: there are plenty of times where socialism, such as with healthcare, just makes the most fucking sense. but opposition to issues (some issues, not all issues) where the socialist approach is superior amounts to nothing but the braying of sheep
so much of opposition to simple coherent logical progress amounts to zombified hordes of americans whipped up into unthinking opposition by demagogues and corporate shills, when if they actually thought about the fucking issues for a second, they would see socialism works far better for them than, for example, the bastard healthcare system we currently have. they decry government death panels, when currently they have corporations, whose job is to bring healthy financial returns to investors, rather than deliver quality healthcare to themselves. in other words, we currently have corporate death panels. fact: healthcare has infinite cost, and we all die eventually. so there is a triage of resources, no matter what the system we choose. there always will be. so would you rather that triage be done by a transparent government whose mandate is to keep you alive? or an opaque corporation whose job is to pay dividends? so why the hell do so many americans defy universal healthcare?
oh, you say the government will be an unwieldy bureaucracy? have you actually tried dealing with the ridiculous dance of paperwork between doctors, hospitals, hmos, etc? its MORE expensive and bureaucratic, the current system we have. socialized universal healthcare is not perfect, its simply BETTER than the current retarded system we have. admit it, and lose your ignorant fear of the scary word "socialism", and choose the superior option
"socialism! socialism! baaah baaah!"
its exactly the same as ignorant peasants whipped into an emotional irrational frenzy by religious madmen that there are witches about, doing evil things! and all they do is wind up killing some of their neighbors and friends, the same as they do when they oppose universal healthcare. the opposition to universal healthcare is the same as witchhunts in colonial times and the same as the mccarthy era- its not based on logic and reason, but based on fear of the unknown
kneejerk fearmongering of the word "socialist". without any respect as to logic behind the issues involved. that's the "debate" we have in the usa right now. pathetic
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
Quaker is a derogatory term used against members of a certain Christian faith. And for the record do the "Quakers" preach anything bad/evil against their fellow man? Or even against you for making fun of them?
end the racketeering
http://prof77.wordpress.com/2009/08/26/health-insurance-is-now-racketeering-protection-money-extortion/
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
Calling Quakers complete Luddites doesn't make sense; they've got no problems with technology as long as you don't let it distract you from living an authentic life. Amish generally think post-1700s technology gets in the way. But they're both "Historic Peace Churches", along with the Mennonites, and both traditionally wore plain clothes and big hats back in the 1700s. In the case of the Quakers, the hats were because England had a beastly climate, and then many of them moved to North America; I suspect it was pretty much the same with the Amish moving from the Germanies.
On the other hand, Quakers never did adopt the American technology called televangelism. A TV show with a bunch of people sitting around quietly for an hour just doesn't haul in cash, even if there is the exciting part at the end where the shake hands and then the clerk reads the announcements for the week, and maybe there's a potluck lunch or some coffee. It can be deeply meaningful if you're there, but you've got to be there...
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
Capt. J. Sparrow: A forbidden! Alright! I love forbiddens! Drinks all around! Y-yes, I'm clapping me hans.
Somebody was busted within the last year for having a dozen of them in her car trunk. (She ran a business selling them.) (Might have been Alabama instead of TX.) Even if they can't outlaw sodomy, they can outlaw obscene devices, because those things are Not Politically Correct.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
the moral argument: if someone is lazy, they don't deserve a wii or an iphone. and they won't get one. but that doesn't mean they deserve to die early of easily treatable diabetes for example
the investment argument: when you invest in the health of your community, it pays dividends to you in terms of: your own kids not getting diseases from sickly other people, your coworkers showing up and working instead of out on disability, the breadwinner actually able to work, so his kids don't wind up trying to burgle your car to feed themselves, etc
the philosophical argument: the money in your pocket is not some detachable entity, it is an intrinsic reflection of the value attached to it by the society you live in. as such, the va;ue of the money in your pocket goes down when you are part of a sick society. a society that takes care of itself is a rich society, and this inflates the cash in your pocket
the impetus to save costs: why spend $10,000 on the diabetes or heart attack when you can spend $100 on preventative medicine? such an imperative only exists in a system where prohibitive medicine is encouraged. our current system puts a premium on expensive and emergency care
etc, etc
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
"Romeo and Juliet" laws don't mean that the age of consent is under 18; they mean that even if one of the partners is under the age of consent, it's not statutory rape if the other partner is within N years of the same age. In New Jersey, the age of consent was something like 15 or 16, and N=3 when they passed the law in the (?80s?).
While some states have an age of consent that's 18, in many others it's lower. When I was growing up in Delaware, the age was 12, because if you were old enough to get pregnant, you were old enough to make your own decisions about sex (or if you prefer a non-feminist explanation, old enough to be a farmer's wife because why would girls need a secondary education?) They've since raised it to something like 14. But it was still strange to encounter the term "jailbait" when I went off to college in another state; the idea that the government would meddle in something like that was appalling, and the age limit of 18 seemed to be totally out of touch with reality.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
I'd assumed he was talking about the Bush/Cheney/Rove Administration, the most shameful Presidency we've had since Jefferson Davis's administration. They've been far more opposed to and dismissive of the Constitution than anything done by either Roosevelt, or Woodrow Wilson (who was seriously bad news) or probably even Lincoln.
And Warren Harding doesn't even fit on that scale; he was just the traditional corrupt politician trading favors for money and other favors, and supposedly losing the White House china set in a poker game.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
HUAC didn't melt away - go read Wikipedia HUAC article. They were still around harassing the Civil Rights Movement and the anti-Vietnam War protest organizations. Some of their most famous targets in later years were Abbie Hoffman and Jerry Rubin, but a friend of mine got interviewed by them (or their staff; it's been a long time and I don't remember details) about his involvement in SDS.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
Did the Republican and Democratic Parties ever register? If not, should we help them out by submitting forms for them? The filing fee's only $5; that was real money back in 1951, but these days it's less than the price of a movie ticket.
And no, those guys had no interest in overthrowing the US government; if they did that then who'd be around to pay them billions and billions of taxpayer dollars? The ones they need to bust are anybody from the Bush Administration, though many of those folks are still around because Obama didn't clean house when he took over.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
The law is full of cruft like this. It's literally dead code. Legislators, by necessity, cannot simply cut code from "the program". They actually have to vote on all the changes. As frustrating as programming can be, can you imagine how it would be if you literally had to have a vote on every commit to the repository?
I used to work in a shop where we printed law books. I got to inspect the printing plates and sometimes had time to read them. My favorite was the law from some mid-western state that put a bounty of $5 on each gopher you shot. I wonder if they ever controlled the gophers. IIRC, it was when $5 was a lot of money.
OK... Google is my friend. it wasn't quite $5. and more amazingly, people are still doing it.
For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
I am revoking all of your nerd credits now.
Reply to That ||
Except, you know, Jefferson Davis wasn't President of the United States.
If you can read this, it means that I bothered to log in.
The Andrew Johnson and, arguably, Ulysses Grant administrations were worse. But in those cases their incompetent was mostly unintentional. The Cheney Administration (let's not kid ourselves about who was really calling the shots) had a much more insidious agenda (though they were certainly incompetent in many respects as well). Chency had dreamed since the Ford administration of re-centralizing much of the Presidential power lost in the wake of Watergate, and he largely succeeded during his administration in resorting that power and gutting laws like of FISA that had decentralized that power. The fact that he also helped out his oil buddies was almost benign compared to some of the stuff he pulled off.
SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
If that's really what it did, why are the laws against using money during foreplay still being enforced?
I didn't know using currency during foreplay was illegal. Not my thing anyways.
If you want to use money or any other paper or cloth goods during foreplay, that's your business.
Yes, the bank will trade in damaged currency for new currency, but again, do them the courtesy of cleaning it off and putting it in a sealed bag. If I were a bank teller I wouldn't want to touch any money that was used in foreplay until it had been adequately disinfected. Ewww.
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
Reading the communist manifesto isn't either.
Here is an age of consent chart.
If you are a 40 year old man, no state has an age of consent below 16 unless you are married to the girl (or guy). This was taken from this report from December 2004, so it's probably outdated.
Also not shown on the table is the minimum age of prosecution, minimum age for prosecution in adult court, and special diversion programs available to teenage and young-adult defendants. In states that have these, this protects kindergartners from being prosecuted as juveniles for "playing doctor" and preteens who are acting inappropriately from being prosecuted as adults. Diversion programs allow teens and sometimes young adults to have their records sealed so they can get on with their life in cases where the person is not predatory but his girlfriend was just a year or two too young for the law.
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
So you'll ban medicare, then? And remove Veteran's Health. Oh, and the police, fire, ambulance and armed forces. Let the corporations do them.
Ya'll are so dang smart we'll down heer in SC we figured up the only way to find them dang terrorista fella's was ta pass a law that would require thems there to register themselves as such.
That a way once they signed up we could heard em all together and have them FBI fellas come on down and arrest them all. Dang smart if'n ya aks me. PS I ain't no coward
Only the guy has to die. Read West Side Story.
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
Spirituality is about self improvement. Religion is about organization and power. Pretty simple really.
I did not alter Russell by adding [and Islam] or saying Religion, I quoted Russell in context. I read "and Islam" myself today, but quotation is quotation.
I'm confidant that Russell quote is particularly poignant because every so often people like you object, but they never mention Martin Luther King or Jimmy Carter.
Organization can obviously be used for good. Religion succeeds when Religion has been more democratic than government. Religion usually fails the modern word by being less democratic. Oh, Real democracy requires representation as noted during the Boston tea party, btw.
Afaik, Jimmy Cater is the only living man who both has held the reigns of power and is truly an idealized Christian. I'll change my sig when I hear him give a logical defense of religion. I've only ever heard him defend spirituality, not religion. MLK might've given religion an argument, but you know what happened to him, and you know by whom.
The Christian religion has been and still is the principal enemy of moral progress in the world. -- Bertrand Russell
He was still the President of a number of the American states.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks