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Who Will Control the Cost of the NYT On Digital Readers?

RobotRunAmok writes "Ryan Tate, at Gawker, describes the 'heated turf war' waging at the New York Times. The print and digital divisions have differing views over how much a subscription to the Gray Lady (iPad edition) should cost. The print troops believe $20-$30 monthly is the proper price point (fearing that setting the mark any lower will jeopardize print distribution), while the digital soldiers are digging in their heels at $10 a month. The Kindle version is already managed by the Print Army, so don't count on logic necessarily driving any decisions here. It's complicated: the Web version of the paper is still free through 2011, and the computer 'Times Reader' has already been released and priced at $14.95 monthly."

217 comments

  1. Watch that price, NYT by yog · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I think the real question should be, how much should a paid subscription cost?

    As a long time subscriber to online.wsj.com, the online version of the Wall Street Journal, I have watched my online subscription cost float up from around $75 promotional price to $155 on the latest bill. (I have a query in to customer support to find out why they were advertising a combined print + online deal for only $135 a month or two ago, yet they're sticking it to me.) Thus far, I have tolerated this annual fee in exchange for excellent content.

    Once an online subscription exceeds about $25/year, you would expect it to have some substantial and unique value that compels you to pay. The WSJ has a tremendous volume of financial and business content, plus provocative commentary, active talk-backs, and broad news coverage. I can't get through it in a day, certainly not in 30 minutes over coffee at 7am, and tend to cherry-pick the interesting titles during little breaks throughout the day (and, now, on the bus/bathroom/in bed using a Nexus One android phone).

    Unlike the WSJ, which is truly a national/international content provider, the NY Times has a regional quality to it that reflects its liberal, middle-to-upper class urban New York readership. Furthermore, all of the national and international news can be obtained from AP, Reuters, and BBC websites for free. Will someone in Boston, Toronto, Fresno, or Omaha feel as compelled to spend $25/month (i.e., $300/year) for such content?

    My recommendation to the New York Times is to keep the price low initially, then start to add premium features (more video, interactive stuff, discounted 3rd party deals, etc.) for subscribers only and try to build up your paid online readership. If you start out by gouging people who are used to a free NY Times online, most of them will simply jump ship to one of the dozens of other, free news services available. Hubris will get you nowhere.

    --
    it's = "it is"; its = possessive. E.g., it's flapping its wings.
    1. Re:Watch that price, NYT by InsertWittyNameHere · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The way I see it is on one hand you're paying for ONE news source and on the other hand you can go to Google News and at a glance see news from MULTIPLE news sources both locally and around the word.

      These days we also get a lot of great personal accounts/coverage from normal people in their blogs, podcasts, websites, twitter, etc.

      A couple months ago I saw a fire near my apartment. I search the name of the street on Twitter and there were tons of tweets describing what was going on with pictures, warning people that the street was closed, the air was thick with smoke and to steer clear. It wasn't until hours later during their 6pm evening news that the news corps reported on it.

    2. Re:Watch that price, NYT by Darth+Sdlavrot · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      it's = "it is"; its = possessive. E.g., it's flapping its wings.

      I can appreciate that when we wrote with feather quills, bottles of ink, and blotting paper -- a rather laborious process -- any reason for putting less ink on the page was a good one.

      You might hear yourself saying "they're", "it's", and "we're" when you are saying "they are","it is", and "we are"; but spoken language != written language.

      We are well beyond the need to save ink. When you write, just write "they are", "it is", and "we are" and save the apostrophes for things like "it is Bill's cat." Especially if you can't ever seem to get it right.

      Yes, it's off topic. No, it's not a flame. Just a non sequitur response prompted by his sig. Mod me down if you must.

    3. Re:Watch that price, NYT by Albanach · · Score: 4, Insightful

      A good newspaper should be doing that for you. Newspapers are no longer about delivering 'breaking news'. The 24/7 news cycle has ended that. The typical readership of a quality newspaper know what happened in the world yesterday. They want to know why it happened and what the consequences might be.

      Today newspapers should be about the insightful commentary, bringing together of sources and unique investigative journalism. Of course these are also the most expensive parts, so have been targeted for cuts by many newspapers.

      The problem the print division at the NYT faces is that the cost per printed copy is directly dependent on subscription volume. So if folk stop taking the paper copy, they cost to produce it increases - you have all the same costs for typesetting and running a print works, you just saved some cents worth of paper and a blob of ink.

    4. Re:Watch that price, NYT by commodore64_love · · Score: 1

      I view it like this:

      - The online version, assuming it contains the same full content, should be priced the SAME as the paper edition. That seems logical to me, because producing the content still requires the same amount of workers, and that cost must be compensated. ----- If you buy both print and online versions, then there should be a discount, just the same as my phone/DSL bundle is discounted.

      A year subscription to New York Times in paper format is $30/month, therefore I'd charge the same for the online version. If people subscribed to both, I'd give them a 75% discount - $30 + $7.50 == $37.50 for the bundle. Simple.

      And yes I know about the argument "online does not need to be delivered", which is true, but MOST of the cost of running a paper comes from reporters' wages, not a few dollar spent on gas, so the savings is minimal.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    5. Re:Watch that price, NYT by Lumpy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      To me? I dont think the NYT is worth more than $4.99 a month. and that is only if it's available on ANY of my readers not just a blessed one they want me to have.

      Honestly, they have to compete with every other source of news on the net, Many free, some I pay for. and honestly the "lyfestyle" and other sections I really dont care about so they have a zero value to me. AND not being a New York resident it has even lower value to me as it's only a source for national news which I can get myself elsewhere. Google,CNN,Yahoo and others give me a ton of that for free. So outside of NY the NYT has even a lower value, most people I know think my $4.99 is way too much.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    6. Re:Watch that price, NYT by tepples · · Score: 1

      The way I see it is on one hand you're paying for ONE news source and on the other hand you can go to Google News and at a glance see news from MULTIPLE news sources both locally and around the word.

      But if all local newspapers controlled by News Corporation and other major newspaper holding companies start charging, all you'll see on English-language Google News are BBC, AP, and Reuters.

    7. Re:Watch that price, NYT by llvllatrix · · Score: 0

      Or you can just subscribe to the blogs of your favorite analysts :)

      Unfortunately, a lot of the traditional news I've read in the past (National Post, The Economist) is very alarmist and often irrational, without much actual content. I've had to resort to publications from the federal reserve, blogs from economists, and my own education for anything descent.

      I'd also still rank Slashdot as a source for fairly reliable content; a lot of the fluff gets filtered out.

    8. Re:Watch that price, NYT by swilver · · Score: 1, Funny

      I must have missed what is wrong with that sig. Oh.. and offtopic.

    9. Re:Watch that price, NYT by Pojut · · Score: 1

      As for my own writing (which, admittedly, could use some serious improvement) I like using "they're" instead of "they are" for two reasons:

      1. It flows smoother
      2. It sounds closer to how I would speak with someone face to face. I try to write articles on my website as if I'm talking to the reader, instead of having them read what I have written.

      In a formal or legal document, I agree..."they are" is more appropriate. However, when it comes to discussion (be it in person or on a forum like Slashdot), striking a more conversational tone is preferable.

      At least for me.

    10. Re:Watch that price, NYT by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      that's not a problem. For local news, you can get it from local websites, for US national news, there is the BBC. Its coverage of our news is better than the nightly news.

    11. Re:Watch that price, NYT by commodore64_love · · Score: 0, Troll

      >>>Today newspapers should be about the insightful commentary, bringing together of sources and unique investigative journalism.

      I consider folks like Glenn Beck, Rachel Maddow, Sean Hannity, Olberman, and so on to be filling those roles...... and they are available free-of-charge via AM radio or Cable tv. It's one of the reasons I don't buy the paper - why pay for stuff I can get free via my audio or video?

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    12. Re:Watch that price, NYT by mh1997 · · Score: 0, Troll

      I've had to resort to publications from the federal reserve, blogs from economists, and my own education for anything descent.

      If you truly want anything decent, I'd rely the education of others.

    13. Re:Watch that price, NYT by delinear · · Score: 1

      And yes I know about the argument "online does not need to be delivered", which is true, but MOST of the cost of running a paper comes from reporters' wages, not a few dollar spent on gas, so the savings is minimal.

      And most of the revenue from newspapers comes from advertising. The price of a physical copy is meant to offset the actual cost of the delivery mechanism as opposed to generating profit (and in many cases the cost to print and distribute is more than the revenue generated by the cover price, but they take the hit to increase circulation and boost advertising revenues). Therefore it's entirely reasonable to ask for a discount for a delivery mechanism which costs next to nothing, so long as they're still selling advertising space.

    14. Re:Watch that price, NYT by delinear · · Score: 1

      Let's wait and see how many newspapers successfully follow that model - especially considering the ones who take the plunge and go first will suddenly lose all the influx of traffic/advertising revenue that Google was previously sending their way. If they're big players they might survive, otherwise there's a good chance they'll quickly disappear and someone else will step up to offer free news in their place.

    15. Re:Watch that price, NYT by delinear · · Score: 1

      Of course, none of your examples explain what to do in the case of the possessive "its", and since the point of the sig is to help people understand the different between "its" and "it's", that would seem to be a noteworthy omission. Instead of saying, "look at its flameworthy post", I guess you would have us say "look at the flameworthy post of it"? That doesn't (sorry, does not) exactly flow.

    16. Re:Watch that price, NYT by jav1231 · · Score: 1

      True but Google has this tendency to link to commentary and opinion blogs in their "news" section, as if. Don't get me wrong, journalism has largely become commentary but I wish Google did what newspapers used to do and put such under a heading that identified them as so.

    17. Re:Watch that price, NYT by Abcd1234 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      We are well beyond the need to save ink.

      Yes, because the purpose of contractions is solely to save ink, thus elegantly explaining their ubiquity in spoken language...

    18. Re:Watch that price, NYT by commodore64_love · · Score: 1

      >>>Therefore it's entirely reasonable to ask for a discount for a delivery mechanism which costs next to nothing, so long as they're still selling advertising space.
      >>>

      Okay. Delivery costs (gasoline) are about 1% of the print paper's subscription fee. So instead of paying $30, you'll pay $30 times 0.99 == $29.70 for online. Happy? :-)

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    19. Re:Watch that price, NYT by Brandee07 · · Score: 1

      The way I see it is on one hand you're paying for ONE news source and on the other hand you can go to Google News and at a glance see news from MULTIPLE news sources both locally and around the word.

      These days we also get a lot of great personal accounts/coverage from normal people in their blogs, podcasts, websites, twitter, etc.

      A couple months ago I saw a fire near my apartment. I search the name of the street on Twitter and there were tons of tweets describing what was going on with pictures, warning people that the street was closed, the air was thick with smoke and to steer clear. It wasn't until hours later during their 6pm evening news that the news corps reported on it.

      Google News and Twitter are great sources for breaking news, and I use it for that, but it's inherently sensationalist. The topics that are the most talked about get put on the Google News page, not the best or most relevant. You're just as likely to see an article about Tiger Woods as you are about Iran's enrichment program, but any of the in-depth, after-the-fact commentary or articles about issues that for whatever reason didn't catch the public eye are left out.

    20. Re:Watch that price, NYT by mdwh2 · · Score: 1

      Is that you, Data?

      Especially if you can't ever seem to get it right.

      Aha, an imposter!

    21. Re:Watch that price, NYT by geekmux · · Score: 4, Interesting

      ...The typical readership of a quality newspaper know what happened in the world yesterday. They want to know why it happened and what the consequences might be.

      In this twitterific RSS-enabled environment feeding an entire generation of instant-gratification kids (uh, talking about 12 - 24 year-olds), who also seem to be "suffering" from ADD/ADHD, just how long do you think the type of reader profile YOU speak of is going to be around? You can barely run certain types of businesses today on "yesterdays" news.

      Sorry, but print is dying. There's a reason that news is on 24/7, because the entire world is now used to "instant" news, and if you're not fresh as of 24 seconds ago, you are an aging dinosaur. The only way you're going to stay alive is with online dynamic content, which could even make the eBook reader versions obselete in a few years, unless the e-content is dynamically updated.

    22. Re:Watch that price, NYT by rugatero · · Score: 2, Funny

      If you truly want anything decent, I'd rely the education of others.

      And you can always rely on Muphry's law.

      --
      This comment is for entertainment purposes only. Any similarity to real insight or information is purely coincidental.
    23. Re:Watch that price, NYT by zolltron · · Score: 0

      Google news is no substitute for a good newspaper. First, a good newspaper should do the aggregation for you, and so should duplicate what google's doing. Second, a *good* newspaper should provide a balanced, fact checked commentary on the news events. The problem with google news is that they include every major news source without preference for reliability.

      If the NYT and Fox News are covering the same story, I want to read the NYT coverage and not Fox News. I don't trust FN, and I do trust NYT (at least I trust them more).

    24. Re:Watch that price, NYT by dcw3 · · Score: 1

      I think the real question should be, how much should a paid subscription cost?

      ...not necessarily directed at the NYTimes
      Until they start publishing unopinionated news, I'd suggest free. I can get all the talking heads, left and right, on the Sunday morning shows for that price now.

      rant...
      I'm tired of the constant bias, and the bullshit entertainment "news". Seriously, if I wanted to see that, I'd tune into the entertainment channel...sorry, I don't give a shit about Tiger Woods flings, or any such nonsense. Give us the real news, and put it into the proper perspective instead of hyping everything. Haven't heard much about bird flu (263 deaths), SARS (774 deaths), or swine flu (14,286 deaths) lately, have we? They all got the big scary "pandemic" word attached to them. Now, I don't want to marginalize anyone's lost relatives here, only put it in perspective. According to wikipedia, 1,200,000 people died in car accidents in 2004...nearly 84 times the fatalities resulting from the worst "pandemic". Hell, we lose over 500,000 to cancer every year in the U.S. Should people go get their shots?...certainly, but let's not cause a god damn panic. The systemic problem with the media these days, is that they're all more concerned with their advertising revenue than they are with doing their jobs.
      Off my soapbox

      --
      Just another day in Paradise
    25. Re:Watch that price, NYT by cgenman · · Score: 1

      It can run about $7,500 to put a quarter of the screen banner up on a section front page on the NYTimes.com for a month. A comparable ad in the paper would cost you over a hundred thousand dollars.

      There is a reason why the print side of things has ten times the revenue on one-tenth the readership. In this case, ad revenue wouldn't matter a darn compared to subscription fees.

      Note: Posting from a phone, so no links. But the NY Times is not shy about posting their financials.

    26. Re:Watch that price, NYT by zach_the_lizard · · Score: 1

      Wait....you consider those guys insightful? I weep for our future.....

      --
      SSC
    27. Re:Watch that price, NYT by zach_the_lizard · · Score: 1

      You forget the presses, the ink, the paper, the work done to typeset the paper, where the articles are placed, etc. etc. Gasoline is not the only cost that they have. It's probably the least expensive part of getting a paper printed and delivered, minus the actual costs to get the content, which would be the same online or on paper.

      --
      SSC
    28. Re:Watch that price, NYT by Tim+C · · Score: 1

      When you write, just write "they are", "it is", and "we are" and save the apostrophes for things like "it is Bill's cat."

      Well, "they're" is quicker to type than "they are", uses less bandwidth and storage space, etc.

      Especially if you can't ever seem to get it right.

      I cannot believe you said "can't".

    29. Re:Watch that price, NYT by zach_the_lizard · · Score: 1

      They will also see a massive drop in their readership, as people such as myself are not willing to pay to access news that we can get for free from many other places. Most of the news articles are just the AP article anyways, with maybe only minor changes. Hardly worth paying for.

      --
      SSC
    30. Re:Watch that price, NYT by GIL_Dude · · Score: 1

      How did you come up with that? Does "gasoline" pay for the actual printing / ink / paper? Does it pay the distribution manager and the folks that bundle the papers up? Does it pay the delivery guy? Yeah, that isn't a good job, but he doesn't drive around dropping the papers off for free. I remember when I was much younger getting a tour of our newspaper. I know the "distribution department" folks had several people working in it and most of them dealt with physical paper issues. So I think "gasoline" is a bit naive.

    31. Re:Watch that price, NYT by commodore64_love · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Likewise you forget the costs of the servers, the electricity, the computer screens, the work done to typeset/format the webpage, where the articles are placed, etc. etc. It ends-up being essentially a wash... no significant difference in paper versus website costs. Actually it's not just you. I've noticed a lot of slashdotters mistakenly believe websites/servers/et cetera cost no money to operate.

      How perplexing?

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    32. Re:Watch that price, NYT by InsaneProcessor · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      Considireing the crap in the NYT (Yes, I have read other peoples copy), why would you pay anything for it? I would much rather read and watch Glenn Beck, Rachel Maddow, Sean Hannity, Olberman, and so on (although Glenn is a little extremist, he is entertaining if you understand what is really going on). Anyone not paying attention deserves what this government will be doing to them.

      --

      Athiesm is a religion like not collecting stamps is a hobby.
    33. Re:Watch that price, NYT by mapkinase · · Score: 1

      "The problem the print division at the NYT faces is that the cost per printed copy is directly dependent on subscription volume"

      Cost per ANY copy of ANYTHING is directly dependent on subscription volume and even more for digital content, because printed copy price drops slower with increased volume because of the increased production cost.

      --
      I do not believe in karma. "Funny"=-6. Do good and forbid evil. Yours, Oft-Offtopic Flamebaiting Troll.
    34. Re:Watch that price, NYT by xaxa · · Score: 2, Interesting

      A couple months ago I saw a fire near my apartment. I search the name of the street on Twitter and there were tons of tweets describing what was going on with pictures, warning people that the street was closed, the air was thick with smoke and to steer clear. It wasn't until hours later during their 6pm evening news that the news corps reported on it.

      If I want to know about today's fire I can ask the firefighters. Good journalism tells me why the fire last month happened, who was imprisoned for causing the fire last year, and what law (building regulation) is being changed to prevent another fire like the one two years ago. Next year, good journalism will report on how someone in breach of these regulations got away with it.

    35. Re:Watch that price, NYT by Albanach · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Cost per ANY copy of ANYTHING is directly dependent on subscription volume and even more for digital content...

      I can assure you that the cost of entry into digital distribution is a heck of a lot lower than that for printing a newspaper.

      The overheads to produce, print, distribute and sell a printed newspaper, overnight to every major city in the United States are massive and really cannot be legitimately compared to the digital equivalent.

    36. Re:Watch that price, NYT by nomadic · · Score: 1

      If the NYT and Fox News are covering the same story, I want to read the NYT coverage and not Fox News. I don't trust FN, and I do trust NYT (at least I trust them more).

      Yep, everyone complains about the NYTimes, and I have issues with some of their coverage over the past few years, but even in its less-good form it's still a good source of news.

    37. Re:Watch that price, NYT by robinstar1574 · · Score: 0

      Whats Muphry's Law?

    38. Re:Watch that price, NYT by robinstar1574 · · Score: 0

      Glenn Beck is perfectly fine, not extremist. He tries to show what MIGHT happen, not what WILL happen with laws that are proposed.

    39. Re:Watch that price, NYT by jc42 · · Score: 1

      I think the real question should be, how much should a paid subscription cost?

      Excellent phrasing of the issue. Unfortunately, the most elegant phrasing of the answer is something that the many armchair economists here rarely mention:

            Whatever the market will bear.

      I say "unfortunately" partly because this answer, while accurate, contains no clue about how you determine the price. The answer to that is "trial and error" (or "market research" if you prefer ;-). If you just ask people, you'll get as many answers as people asked, and few will have any relation to the actual number. Nobody knows what the correct market price is for news now. The old price included printing and distribution costs, and those have essentially disappeared.

      The NYT and other such publishers will just have to experiment with prices, and see where the price point is that maximizes income. And there are difficulties doing this. If you highball the price, lots of people will never respond, and you'll never know that they would have become subscribers at a slightly lower price. OTOH, if you lowball the starting price, you run across the opposite problem of people being offended by frequent price increases for something that they would have paid more for if that had been the starting price.

      In any case, as others have pointed out, it's a fact of life for the "news" industry that the raw news is and probably will remain free now. Profit is to be made by supplying organization, explanation, analysis, and commentary on the news. The days are probably over when you can make a profit for just supplying the raw text from the commercial suppliers. People can get that from news.google.com, among others, and you aren't likely to do a better job.

      My wife has subscribed to nytimes.com for a while. She recently dropped salon.com, and it'll be interesting to see the price point where she (and others) drop their nytimes.com subscriptions. And whether such companies can get her and others back afterwards.

      (As a computer geek and internet programmer from before the Internet existed, I've never subscribed to any MSM news sources. I do subscribe to a few tech/scientific news sources which were once paper but are now electronic. Like many people of my ilk, I have some of my own software for selecting from the online news sources. And I also look around for useful aggregators, such as the one we're reading here.)

      --
      Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
    40. Re:Watch that price, NYT by jc42 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The overheads to produce, print, distribute and sell a printed newspaper, overnight to every major city in the United States are massive and really cannot be legitimately compared to the digital equivalent.

      On the contrary, I'll guarantee you that the accountants for the NYT and every other newspaper can tell you to the penny just how much both paper and electronic production and distribution costs them. And comparing the two sets of numbers is totally legitimate in any business setting.

      The real problem is that the accountants can't tell you the price point that will maximize their future income from either method. That depends on the whims of their customers, not on any price lists that suppliers can give to the accountants.

      Part of the problem, of course, is that electronic distribution now has costs that are orders of magnitude smaller than paper distribution. But this doesn't mean that such costs are some holy Mystery that's unknowable by mere humans. The publishers are just having problems coming to terms with this huge drop in their production costs, since it clearly means they should charge less for delivery by this new technology. But their management structure (and self image) is built partly on the costs of the old hard-copy delivery, and restructuring of such magnitude is always difficult for any human organization.

      --
      Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
    41. Re:Watch that price, NYT by Garble+Snarky · · Score: 1

      If I adapt the meaning of "non sequitur" to apply to something other than a logical conclusion, then your statement can not be both "non sequitur" and "prompted" by something; those two properties are fundamentally at odds. Maybe you meant "irrelevant", "unrelated" or "incidental"?

      Even more off topic, and also not a flame. I don't care about language evolving, except in the cases where the unique, precise meaning of a word is completely eliminated from our language because of its appropriation into generic vernacular.

    42. Re:Watch that price, NYT by timeOday · · Score: 1

      Unlike the WSJ, which is truly a national/international content provider, the NY Times has a regional quality to it that reflects its liberal, middle-to-upper class urban New York readership.

      Ha ha! Your post is mostly sensible, but if you don't think the WSJ is pandering to its readership (particularly its editorial page), then I beg to differ.

      However I agree the WSJ is in a relatively strong position to charge for its contents, because the argument can be made it is an investment that will pay off, and its readership can afford it.

    43. Re:Watch that price, NYT by ColdWetDog · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Glenn Beck is perfectly fine, not extremist. He tries to show what MIGHT happen, not what WILL happen with laws that are proposed.

      I would disagree. Glenn Beck shows what DOES happen when you're bitten by a rabid bat and don't get treated in time.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    44. Re:Watch that price, NYT by Aqualung812 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Glenn Beck and Rachel Maddow, and you're calling that unique investigative journalism? I'm not taking sides, but both of those people are in the entertainment business, not investigative journalism. The closest thing I've found for true journalism (on TV) anymore is "Dan Rather Reports" on HD Net.

      --
      Grammer Nazis - I mod you "troll" unless you actually add something on-topic. Yes, I know I have mispellings in my sig.
    45. Re:Watch that price, NYT by frogzilla · · Score: 4, Informative

      I find it a bit hard to believe that the daily cost of presses, press staff and press consumables is equal to or less than the daily cost of web servers. Do you have any numbers to back up your claim? After all, the computers that the advertising, journalism and production staff use are there whether or not you are printing on paper.

      This guy says that the cost of printing the New York times is of the order of US$500 million per year. That seems pretty unbelievable too but if true would amount to something like US$1.4 million per day. I looked at the financial statement of the New York times where they list the cost of raw materials for 2006, 2005 and 2004 as (millions US$ per year) 331, 321 and 297.

      This site suggests daily paper costs for the New York Times to be about 1/10 of the above estimate. Based on the financial report this is just wrong.

      US$1 million per day would run a hell of a server room.

    46. Re:Watch that price, NYT by ffflala · · Score: 1

      Comparing the relative qualities of NYT -v- WSJ will tell us more about the comparer's own bias than anything, and can obscure the discussion. The NYT is recognized as a truly national/international content provider, despite your implication to the contrary.

      I agree that the WSJ economic coverage is excellent. But characterizing the NYT as a regional, liberal, middle/upper class NY paper is inaccurate. The NYT has a social, humanities element to its coverage that the WSJ has consistently lacked, and this appeals to a broader demographic than the one you've described.

      I hope that I'm not the only one uncomfortable with the WSJ's ownership. Rev. Moon, leader of the WSJ's owner, the Unification Church, has declared himself the center of the spirit world. He has compared himself to Jesus, and apparently believes he is in fact a reincarnation of Jesus. His followers treat him and worship him as a god. The recent family dispute between two of his sons who were vying for position took place in and about the WSJ, and is a great example as to why one would treat such a news source as a dubious one. The NYT owners have their own problems of course, but the NYT's institutional bias seems much more apparent on the surface than the WSJ.

    47. Re:Watch that price, NYT by abigor · · Score: 1

      It strikes those who don't understand apostrophes.

    48. Re:Watch that price, NYT by tepples · · Score: 1

      otherwise there's a good chance they'll quickly disappear and someone else will step up to offer free news in their place.

      That's why News Corporation was trying to collude with its competitors in each local market to shut off free access to the public at the same time.

    49. Re:Watch that price, NYT by commodore64_love · · Score: 1

      >>> The closest thing I've found for true journalism (on TV) anymore is "Dan Rather Reports" on HD Net.

      Alright.

      I would also add the various PBS news/investigative shows. So then you sustain my point that there's no need to buy a paper, when you can find investigative reporting on television. For free.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    50. Re:Watch that price, NYT by abigor · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You think The Economist is alarmist, irrational, and content-free, whereas the blogs of your "favorite analysts" are a better source? I'm not sure if you understand what reporting actually is, as opposed to opinion.

    51. Re:Watch that price, NYT by meta_gorn · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I think it's a generational thing. Older folks, like, oh, say, Rupert Murdoch, believe that a newspaper is a newspaper, no matter what its format, and you should pony up for it. Serious investigative journalism costs real money, they say. Fair enough. But of course, Murdoch goes too far, in pricing content too high and with this nonsense of trying shake down search engines for even linking to content.

      Middle-age folks like me, who grew up w/o the internet but are still young enough to fully embrace it, might be willing to pay, but as yog said, watch that price. We know that distribution costs on the web are close to nothing, so don't price your content as if it costs the same as print. I don't know what that price is, but you better keep it down and offer a la carte pricing too.

      The younger generation, the people who grew up with the internet, well, most of them figure you're a chump if you pay for *any* internet content, so who knows how you get them to suddenly value it. But media companies only have themselves to blame for not creating pay models years ago that could have steered cultural attitudes about the dollar worth of journalism on the web.

      --
      --- When I grow up, I want to be a legislator of scientific laws.
    52. Re:Watch that price, NYT by dorre · · Score: 1

      Today newspapers should be about the insightful commentary, bringing together of sources and unique investigative journalism.

      Hasn't this always been the goal for journalism? There may have been a time recently when the crowds were more interested in what happened the last ten seconds than real journalistic news, but I'm glad if we are heading back in the direction of quality journalism.

      The problem with blogs as source for 'enlightened commentery' is that is difficult to know in which way a single blogger is biased. A newspaper is usually well known to be biased towards one end or the other, and therefore it's easier to judge their content.

    53. Re:Watch that price, NYT by commodore64_love · · Score: 1, Interesting

      >>>Wait....you consider those guys insightful? I weep for our future....

      Go here: http://www.glennbeckclips.com/02-18-10.htm (or simply glennbeckclips.com if that link is broke) and watch Segments 3 and 4, and tell me they are not insightful, or at least educational, in regards to our debt situation.

      On the liberal side Rachel Maddow has similar investigative/educational segments. Why would I pay New York Times or any other newspaper ~$400 a year when I can get pretty much the same info for FREE from television or radio?

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    54. Re:Watch that price, NYT by Albanach · · Score: 1

      I think you misinterpreted my use of "cannot be compared". You seem to have taken it as a literal, as if I was saying there is no way of calculating the cost differential between digital and paper production.

      I was in fact implying that the cost differential is so great between the two that one production method cannot be compared as like the other.

    55. Re:Watch that price, NYT by commodore64_love · · Score: 2, Informative

      >>>Today newspapers should be about the insightful commentary, bringing together of sources and unique investigative journalism.

      Go here: http://www.glennbeckclips.com/02-18-10.htm [glennbeckclips.com] (or simply glennbeckclips.com if that link is broke) and watch Segments 3 and 4, and tell me they are not insightful, or at least educational, in regards to our debt situation.

      On the liberal side Rachel Maddow has similar investigative/educational segments. Why would I pay New York Times or any other newspaper ~$400 a year when I can get pretty much the same info for FREE from television or radio?

      >>>had to resort to publications from the federal reserve

      Oh yeah. They are trustworthy. (rolls eyes). There's a reason Congress wants to audit them as soon as possible. The Fed officers are NOT trustworthy, or unbiased. (There really is no such thing as unbiased reporting, so you're basically wasting time looking for a holy grail that doesn't exist.)

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    56. Re:Watch that price, NYT by kramerd · · Score: 1

      The problem the print division at the NYT faces is that the cost per printed copy is directly dependent on subscription volume. So if folk stop taking the paper copy, they cost to produce it increases - you have all the same costs for typesetting and running a print works, you just saved some cents worth of paper and a blob of ink.

      This is true only if the NYT staff really, really sucks at math. The cost to produce the paper version of the NYT is relatively fixed; the income derived from selling the paper version is not. If half of print circulation dissapears (while the cost to produce the paper does not materially change), NYT can make up the lost revenue by selling the online version (note, without the cost of ink and paper) at practically the exact same cost as the paper version. If I can get the paper version for $175 a year, the online version should not cost nearly twice as much. By charging this much, the NYT must believe that for every person who subscribes to the electronic version, 2 people drop their paper.

      NYT has missed the window in which they can gouge early adopters. People are used to getting their news for free, from multiple sources, on the internet. If you are going to charge for web content, you have to have something that no one else brings to the market. The WSJ gives subscribers a free physical paper with every online subscription (which includes to the minute updates, sometimes interesting discussions of financial issues, and the ability to ignore non-subscribing spammers on forums). The NYT apparently just wants to offer double the price. Economics was never my strong suit, but I somehow don't think that this will work.

    57. Re:Watch that price, NYT by commodore64_love · · Score: 1

      >>>This guy (howstuffworks)

      His calculations and statistics are often wrong. For example I was just reading an article where he estimated total gold in the world is about 100 trillion dollars. I thought that sounded wrong, so I turned to the U.S. Treasury website, dug a little bit, and they put the number at just 5. The blogger (or bloggers) behind HSW are not really any more accurate than any of us.
      .

      >>>I find it a bit hard to believe that the daily cost of presses, press staff and press consumables is equal to or less than the daily cost of web servers
      >>>

      Me too. Which is why I did not say printing is "less than" web servers. You inserted words I never uttered. I said that while printing presses cost money to operate, so too do web servers with large electrical bills/cooling costs and typesetting/formatting the webpage, and it's probably about equal overall in cost.

      The web server probably *slightly* cheaper than printing, but not enough difference that people should be getting their Online NYT for free or almost-free. So I'd still charge $30 per month for the online subscription (same as the print edition). You're still getting the same content, same reporting, same entertainment to fill your day.

      And a reduced cost for the bundle deal (~$35-39 for both print and online).

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    58. Re:Watch that price, NYT by Aqualung812 · · Score: 1

      But that is my point, the best one I found was on HD Net, and I stopped paying $15/mo for that (NOT free). PBS might have something as good, I just have not seen it.

      --
      Grammer Nazis - I mod you "troll" unless you actually add something on-topic. Yes, I know I have mispellings in my sig.
    59. Re:Watch that price, NYT by Dragonslicer · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Go here: http://www.glennbeckclips.com/02-18-10.htm [glennbeckclips.com] (or simply glennbeckclips.com if that link is broke) and watch Segments 3 and 4, and tell me they are not insightful, or at least educational, in regards to our debt situation.

      Did he manage to make it through two entire segments without crying?

    60. Re:Watch that price, NYT by Dan+Ost · · Score: 1

      Please explain how such collusion is not considered illegal.

      --

      *sigh* back to work...
    61. Re:Watch that price, NYT by voidstin · · Score: 1

      A couple months ago I saw a fire near my apartment. I search the name of the street on Twitter and there were tons of tweets describing what was going on with pictures....

      This is the type of scenario that social media excels at, but most people don't have white house press credentials, or correspondents in kandahar, or the patience or experience to dig through piles of legal documents. Stories like enron, what caused the financial crisis, the CIA torture memos, etc all need experienced journalists who need to be paid.

      That said, your point is totally valid. Why pay for something that is now free? Personally, I'm willing to pay for the increase quality, both of journalism and UI. But my cap is probably around $8-10/mo. And I'm a fanboy.

    62. Re:Watch that price, NYT by voidstin · · Score: 1

      If the NYT and Fox News are covering the same story, I want to read the NYT coverage and not Fox News. I don't trust FN, and I do trust NYT (at least I trust them more).

      Or read both, and make up your own mind. Everything is slanted, and slimming your intake to just a few trusted sources is dangerous on either side of the political spectrum.

    63. Re:Watch that price, NYT by llvllatrix · · Score: 1

      I never claimed that the insights were totally invaluable; you get gems from time to time.

      While, I agree that fedspeak is hard to unravel and intentionally so, they do publish very thorough statistical analysis of the economy. Moreover, their conclusions are often based on these statistics and very rarely influenced by political expediency (the Fed was designed this way); take a look at the history around the end of George H.W. Bush's term in office and his re-election if you don't believe me.

      You occasionally get opponents like Senator Henry B. Gonzalez, who wanted FOMC meetings televised to increase their transparency. The intention is good but the effect would be bad in my opinion; either you have a market that reacts violently to the meetings or a set of very tight lipped federal bankers. Neither is good for the economy.

      You're right; there is no holy grail and a lot of the reporting and economic forecasts are biased. However, in my experience real economic data and interpretation from economists I trust is often a more valuable use of my reading time.

    64. Re:Watch that price, NYT by commodore64_love · · Score: 1

      Well Beck made a deal - he'll stop being an emotional girly-man..... when Rachel Maddow stops acting like an arrogant know-it-all bitch.
       
      /just joking

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    65. Re:Watch that price, NYT by jc42 · · Score: 1

      Google news is no substitute for a good newspaper. First, a good newspaper should do the aggregation for you, and so should duplicate what google's doing. Second, a *good* newspaper should provide a balanced, fact checked commentary on the news events.

      Yeah, but you've gotta consider that we don't have, and have never had, very many *good* newspapers. Dig into some of the old archives. A good start might be at the Library of Congress. You'll be appalled by the quality of much of the reporting. (Others might contribute links to similar archives elsewhere.)

      It has gotten worse in the past couple of decades. People blame the Internet for the crappy mainstream-media (MSM) news coverage, but the recent decline predates the public outing of the Internet. Much of the real reason, at least here in the US, was the political ending of enforcement of the anti-monopoly laws. This gave us the rampant buyout/merger process, which left most metro areas with only one newspaper, or sometimes two with a single owner. This allowed most newspapers to save on "costs" by cutting back on expensive things like fact checking and editing.

      Then, when they woke up to the existence of the Internet, their response wasn't to restore the previous "added value", but rather to spend more on PR to try to persuade people that something of value was being lost. But most of the value had already been thrown away, or in many cases had never been there.

      So go dig out all those archived newspapers and read them with a critical eye on "quality", whatever that means to you. In most cases, you'll be disappointed, and realize that we really haven't lost much.

      A more practical approach might be to just say goodbye to the newspaper industry, and focus on how that (mostly imaginary) "value" can be provided online. You might observe that we sorta have the start of it. Among the zillions of blogs, there are some that do a reasonable jobs of fact checking. And, of course, their primary activity is aggregation, as we see here with slashdot, but most of them do more than that. Slashdot's comment and moderations system is an interesting example of something that is obviously far from perfect, but better than anything that a hard-copy newspaper could ever have provided. In particular, we see lots of fact checking here, provided free by readers at very little cost to the site's owners within hours of a story's appearance.

      Maybe with a few more decades experimenting, we can come up with a "news" system that's better than what the newspapers gave us. And nobody will object if some of the old news publishers are part of it. They just have to understand that the game has changed, and they no longer have the ability to monopolize a market.

      --
      Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
    66. Re:Watch that price, NYT by commodore64_love · · Score: 1

      >>>they do publish very thorough statistical analysis of the economy.

      CONGRESS: "Can you tell us which companies received TARP money?"

      FED RESERVE CHAIRMAN: "No idea."

      Yeah I trust these people. Not. They have devalued the American dollar by over 90% since they were created in the 1910s. In other words if you had managed to save $10,000 in 1920 from your job, you would have been rich (or at least well off). Today it's nothing because the Fed runs off dollars and devalues the paper the People hold.

      And they give money away to who knows where. It's the People's money - the People's government - they should know where every dollar is spent. I think an audit should be performed every year.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    67. Re:Watch that price, NYT by eudaemon · · Score: 1

      It has been tried and failed many times, yet it feels like yet another place where microeconomics should be used. "The Gray Lady" either has items that are taken from elsewhere (AP, IAP, UP, etc) or bespoke articles written by contact and permanent staff. What would I pay for? Either their value added take on the newswire articles, or wholly new content they've created. Charge me 10 cents per article I read and let me pick and choose based on index of precis. Ask me at the end of the article if I thought it was worth it. I guarantee that sort of ala carte system will tell the paper exactly what is interesting and how much people (in aggregate) are willing to pay for it. They can shift around pricing slightly (8 cents per article, 12, 15) to see where pricing equilibrium is reached.

    68. Re:Watch that price, NYT by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      WSJ has a tremendous volume of financial and business content, plus provocative commentary, active talk-backs, and broad news coverage.

      the WSJ, which is truly a national/international content provider

      We must be talking about a different WSJ. My experience of the writing in the WSJ is a pseudo-conservative rag that opposes real reform (be it tax, health, etc.) in the government.

      I wouldn't pay $155/year (I'm optimistic that you meant annually, though you failed to specify) to someone that advocates the continued weakening of the American institution. I have more self-respect than that.

      If you don't believe me... allow me to simply hit their commentary section at random and see what we find (you'll have to excuse my selection as I don't have access to the full set of choices):

      Conservatives all my adulthood have said the American people were, on the issue of spending, the frog in the pot of water: The rising heat lulled him, and when the water came full boil, he wouldn't be able to jump out.

      But that is the great achievement, if you will, of the past few years. The frog is coming awake at just the last moment. He is jumping out of the water.

      (From Can Washington Meet the Demand to Cut Spending? by Peggy Noonan)

      Yes. Music to my ears! The old hat about a frog in a pot is a myth. Yet it makes such a useful analogy that they run it anyway. Talk about good writing!

      Second, the Conservatives all of the author's adulthood have been driving up the deficits just as much as the Liberals. Is the author claiming both parties want to cook us alive? Why not just say so?

      No, this would not deserve even a $100/year fee. This is ridiculous and flies in the face of reality. It's unfortunate for you to try to defend a paper that publishes this sort of nonsense. You are championing an enemy of science and progress.

      Can't resist one more quote from that piece:

      Second the Republicans should tread delicately while moving forward seriously. Voters are feeling as never before in recent political history the vulnerability of their individual positions. There is no reason to believe they are interested in highly complicated and technical reforms, the kind that go under the heading "homework." As in: "I know my future security depends on understanding this thing and having a responsible view, but I cannot make it out. My whole life is homework. I cannot do more."

      We are not a nation of accountants, however much our government tries to turn us into one.

      The author advocates against "highly complicated and technical reforms" even if they are best. Let's see... Condorcet voting? Instant runoff? Both are too complicated, we'll stick with simple majority. Should we actually metricate? No, people have enough homework already. And so on. Anti-intellectualism! Gods bless America, land of the too-busy and home of the not brave enough for homework?!

      Give me a break.

    69. Re:Watch that price, NYT by jc42 · · Score: 1

      Or read both [NYT and Fox News], and make up your own mind. Everything is slanted, and slimming your intake to just a few trusted sources is dangerous on either side of the political spectrum.

      Well, maybe, but there are slants and there are slants. It doesn't take much watching to get a feel for Fox News, and to some people, it's downright embarrassing. I only have so 24 hours in a day, and I don't see a good reason to waste any of that time with "news" sources that are so blatantly trying to persuade me rather than inform me. There are much better sources around that will give you varied slants in a form that doesn't waste so much of our limited time.

      One of the things I've found informative is to skim through the "all 493 news articles" links at news.google.com, looking for unfamiliar names, and click on a few of them. There are often news sources that are local to a story that give a slant that you don't hear on the MSM sources, and they can be interesting.

      This is something that the traditional hard-copy news sources couldn't much do. One of the real advantages to the Internet is that it does an end run around the traditional corporate-controlled news distribution channels, and gives you a window into how the people directly affected by a story might view things. (Or at least the ones that are willing and able to translate their story into a language that you can read, who are not necessarily a typical cross section of the local population. ;-)

      --
      Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
    70. Re:Watch that price, NYT by zolltron · · Score: 2, Interesting

      "Reading both sides" is not always a good way to find out the truth. If one side is willing to lie and the other isn't, then you won't get a balanced sense of the situation from reading both sides. Your view will be slanted toward the side willing to lie.

      Perhaps no news outlet will outright lie (perhaps), but I am very confident that Fox News is perfectly willing to report things with the slimest of corroboration as cold, hard fact if it suits their political agenda. I don't mean to pick on right, there are plenty of left wing organizations that do the same too.

      My point is simply that reading a bunch of different sources is not guaranteed to give you an accurate picture of the world. More broadly, this is why I think news aggregation, like google news, cannot take the place of a single, good news source.

    71. Re:Watch that price, NYT by fahrbot-bot · · Score: 1

      This site [metafilter.com] suggests daily paper costs for the New York Times to be about 1/10 of the above estimate. Based on the financial report this is just wrong.

      Of course, there's more to printing than just the paper. There's the ink, materials to make plates, electricity, water, heating, cooling, automated robots (to move the HUGE paper rolls - I've seen them at the Boston Globe), cost and maintenance of the presses (which are also HUGE), people, etc...

      By comparison, a server room seems quaint :-)

      --
      It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
    72. Re:Watch that price, NYT by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sorry, but print is dying. There's a reason that news is on 24/7, because the entire world is now used to "instant" news, and if you're not fresh as of 24 seconds ago, you are an aging dinosaur.

      Print is dying, but not because of any need for "instant" news. Instant news is to news as instant coffee is to coffee...a fast substitute of lower quality.

      But print is dying because the business model relied on advertising (commercial and classified) to subsidize the cost of professional journalists and lower the paper's purchase price. The internet has provided advertisers with cheaper and more effective options, so they've been abandoning print media.

      And none of the economics change much when you go from printed material to eBook versions. You've still got the cost of creating quality content which won't be sustainable without higher purchase prices or increased advertising. Readers won't pay those increased prices with the availability of content online and advertisers won't support them enough because they won't get the impact per dollar that they get online.

      Print and eBook editions of these papers will die, but not because they're not responsive enough to news as it happens. They'll die because there's no business model to support them anymore.

    73. Re:Watch that price, NYT by frogzilla · · Score: 1

      1 million dollars per day just to run printing presses! You still think that "[i]t ends-up being essentially a wash... no significant difference in paper versus website costs"?

    74. Re:Watch that price, NYT by bws111 · · Score: 1

      Why would the NYT care if they lost 'people like you' who aren't paying anyway? Their on-line ad revenue is a pittance ($36M out of a total $262M ad revenue last quarter), and they are the #1 on-line newspaper for page hits. Losing all of their on-line ad revenue would hardly make their situation any worse.

      Also, can we please stop repeating this trite 'the articles are from the AP anyway' line? The AP IS the newspapers, as in they own it and provide the content for it. When the papers are gone, the AP is gone, and there will be no AP articles, free or not.

    75. Re:Watch that price, NYT by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Print is also dying because the print newspapers had limited amounts of unique content. A couple of decades ago, the easiest way for me to get AP, UPI, and Reuters feeds on news I was interested in was to subscribe to the local paper. Nowadays, I can get that stuff on line, for free, whenever convenient for me.

      Much like the pre-owned game market, trashing the pre-owned news market is hurting the new news market.

      There's also the issue that newspapers have never worked out how to sell me news per se, but rather large quantities of low-quality paper with stuff printed on it. Similarly, record labels were able to keep up with selling me vinyl records, cassette tapes, and CDs, but stumbled badly in just selling music, and had to be bludgeoned by Steve Jobs into doing something practical.

      Commercial advertisements have mostly been affected by declining circulation, but classified ads have been going to a very large extent to Craigslist and, to some extent, eBay and other forums.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    76. Re:Watch that price, NYT by mapkinase · · Score: 1

      "I can assure you that the cost of entry into digital distribution is a heck of a lot lower than that for printing a newspaper."

      That I was saying too.

      --
      I do not believe in karma. "Funny"=-6. Do good and forbid evil. Yours, Oft-Offtopic Flamebaiting Troll.
    77. Re:Watch that price, NYT by FangVT · · Score: 1

      There's a reason that news is on 24/7, because the entire world is now used to "instant" news, and if you're not fresh as of 24 seconds ago, you are an aging dinosaur.

      As a "consumer" of news, I can't keep up with my news provider's constant feed; I actually appreciate the services of an editor that will cull through yesterdays events and let me know what were the most important stories. That way I don't have to read everything and then have to read it again as they update and correct all the shoddy reporting that the "instant" news cycle has made the norm.

      Instant news is the informational equivalent of thinking that quantity is a substitute for quality.

    78. Re:Watch that price, NYT by dangitman · · Score: 1

      You think The Economist is alarmist, irrational, and content-free, whereas the blogs of your "favorite analysts" are a better source?

      The phrase "favorite analysts" doesn't appear in the post you are replying to. In fact, the word "analyst" doesn't appear at all. So I'm not sure what the hell you are talking about.

      --
      ... and then they built the supercollider.
    79. Re:Watch that price, NYT by dangitman · · Score: 1

      Oh shit, this is embarrassing. Slashdot threading fail. Curse you slashdot 2.0! Please disregard.

      --
      ... and then they built the supercollider.
    80. Re:Watch that price, NYT by tftp · · Score: 1

      It can run about $7,500 to put a quarter of the screen banner up on a section front page on the NYTimes.com for a month. A comparable ad in the paper would cost you over a hundred thousand dollars [for a day.]

      I'm not surprised then that paper is dying - there are only so many rich idio^W advertisers who are willing to pay $100K for a daily ad. Electrons are cheaper, and impulse buyers can follow the ad immediately. Ever tried to click on an ad in a newspaper?

    81. Re:Watch that price, NYT by tftp · · Score: 1

      Why would the NYT care if they lost 'people like you' who aren't paying anyway? Their on-line ad revenue is a pittance

      Probably they can survive without his ad impressions. However the readership, physical or online, is a major qualifier of a newspaper. That's the number that the newspaper owners throw around when they need to prove that their business is worth something. NYT won't survive with 15,000 paying online readers.

      In any case, access to news is not that important for 99% of the people. And there is always radio and TV that will tell you or - even better - show you what you need to know. If you are a more demanding person and want to know facts, not opinions, then you can read official statements of companies, governments and other sources. Even North Korea has an official Web site (hosted in Japan, IIRC.)

      /. itself is a great illustration of that. It is largely self-contained, discussions are held not as much about current news as they'd be reported by newspapers, but largely about opinions and blog posts and products, and those have nothing to do with newspapers or news sources. Myself, I don't do much of that "social networking" thing, outside of a couple of web sites like this one. But plenty of people do a lot, and that social network generates far more [junk] news, and strangely enough many people are more interested in what Bill and Jane had for dinner than in how many nuclear bombs NK has. Perhaps, though, they are right - it's pointless to worry about things that you can't control.

    82. Re:Watch that price, NYT by commodore64_love · · Score: 1

      I didn't say it before, but I'll say it now. I don't think listening to Dan Rather is any more unbiased than listening to Obama's Press Secretary. Dan's a clear and obvious pro-"we need more government" supporter, and that biases all his reporting. You may not have noticed, but since I'm a Libertarian/constitutionalist it stuck-out as clear as the red nose on a clown's face.

      I don't think Dan's a good example of excellent or unbiased reporting.

      Oh and free Dan Rather is here: http://www.hd.net/danrather.html - There's probably a place to watch HDnet free too, like tvpc.com or justintv.net, but I've not found it yet.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    83. Re:Watch that price, NYT by Lars+T. · · Score: 1

      Therefore it's entirely reasonable to ask for a discount for a delivery mechanism which costs next to nothing, so long as they're still selling advertising space.

      Funny you should say that on Slashdot, where every article on a browser gets a +5 post asking if there's an Adblock for it.

      --

      Lars T.

      To the guy who modded me down from perfect to terrible Karma - Apple haters still suck

    84. Re:Watch that price, NYT by Aqualung812 · · Score: 1

      I wasn't saying he was unbiased, I was saying that there is much more depth to the reporting. All reporting has bias to some extent. However, I never took the time to see that you could still get the show free online, thanks for the link!

      --
      Grammer Nazis - I mod you "troll" unless you actually add something on-topic. Yes, I know I have mispellings in my sig.
  2. $10 for crap, or $20-$30 for crap? Does it matter? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Does it really matter? The price doesn't change the fact that the NYT's journalism is basically shit most of the time, even though they are one of the most "respect" papers in the US.

    Their coverage of the run-up to the Iraqi War was abysmal, for instance. It was pretty clear then that they should have done their journalistic duty and printed much more about how those pushing for war were just plain wrong. And now we know that they basically just repeated the lies and bullshit spewed by various Republican and Democrat politicians during that time period.

    It's not a "Democrats vs. Republicans" or "left vs. right" situation, either. They should be tearing Obama and the Democrats several new assholes for their handling of Wall Street, Afghanistan and other issues. But for whatever reason, they don't, or if they try to it's quite feebly done.

    The NYT, were it actually concerned with journalism, would themselves be ripping into Wall Street and corporate America. But then again, I suppose they can't, because they seem more concerned with advertising revenue over realistic and quality reporting.

    Regardless of what they charge, I'm not going to pay any money for their content when they don't ask the hard-hitting questions of politicians and corporations, and do the real investigative journalism that's worthy of money.

  3. I will by Darth+Sdlavrot · · Score: 1

    And if they keep failing to deliver my dead tree version the price will be zero.

    1. Re:I will by Em+Emalb · · Score: 1

      Not that I want an actual newspaper, but the premise of the article is wrong. The NYTimes will not control the price, the consumer will. If $30 is too much, no one will pay that much. Then the Times will hem and haw about it and claim that they need a helping hand or something from the .gov (could happen) or, they'll go the smart route and realize that people will pay a reasonable price for content.

      It's been this way forever. I don't understand why companies don't get this. Hi, NYTimes, get your frigging marketing department out on the street and ask people what they'd be willing to pay. Don't arbitrarily set some ridiculous (IMO) price for content. KTHXBAI.

      --
      Sent from your iPad.
  4. Printed newspapers is a shrinking segment by 91degrees · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Whether the digital edition affects sales of the print edition is beside the point. Online news is going to affect the sales of the print edition anyway. the question is whether the NYT wants a segment of that or not.

    Digital media is distruptive technology. If the NYT doesn't clobber their print sales someone else is going to do the job for them.

    1. Re:Printed newspapers is a shrinking segment by Tim+C · · Score: 1

      Yes, but the people working for (and in charge of) the print part of the business are not the same as those involved with the digital part. Each department is no doubt charged with maximising profit from their department, and with maximising the profit of the organisation as a whole.

      It's an unusual person who would say "You know what I think? I think my department is antiquated and should be phased out; if you want to succeed, your best chance is to fire me and all my employees" - especially when their department is still making money, and at one point was the *only* department.

      That doesn't excuse the next person up the chain from not seeing that, of course.

    2. Re:Printed newspapers is a shrinking segment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The prices should be much lower than print, distribution cost are much lower. Make the price $5.00 and volume will make up the difference in no time. Not that a single person at the Time as a clue about how economics actually work.

    3. Re:Printed newspapers is a shrinking segment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      To use an old cliche, if I was working at a buggy whip factory, which was somehow still miraculously making money despite the fact that every indication from every possible source of information is saying that THIS INDUSTRY WILL DIE VERY SOON, you can be damned sure I'm throwing my resume out to as many places as possible.

      If you're in a dying industry, you're in a dying industry, and no amount of whining will keep your job alive. You WILL be jobless. Soon. Do something about it!

  5. Egon said it best by Dachannien · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Print is dead.

    1. Re:Egon said it best by guruevi · · Score: 1

      Of course it is, it's bad for the environment (paper, energy for print, energy to transport it, waste), it's unwieldy (heavier and bigger than say an iPad or Kindle) and it's inconvenient (yet another thing to keep in your hands or suitcase).

      I don't know why papers are not concentrating on their digital versions. If they can make a paper for $1.50/day in real paper including all the overhead of actual printing and distribution while still maintaining an online version, the cost for just the online version should be a fraction of that cost. That fraction most definitely can be offset by some Google Ads.

      --
      Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
    2. Re:Egon said it best by Spyware23 · · Score: 1

      That fraction most definitely can be offset by some Google Ads.

      A rather twisted example. Lets try to not give the evil monopolies more power, even when discussing a mere hypothetical.

  6. Economics 102 by Mononoke · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Who Will Control the Cost of the NYT On Digital Readers?

    The consumer will. The consumer ultimately determines the value of any item sold.

    --
    NetInfo connection failed for server 127.0.0.1/local
    1. Re:Economics 102 by djupedal · · Score: 4, Insightful

      >"The consumer will. The consumer ultimately determines the value of any item sold."

      How's that working out for you with Comcast and Shell Oil, by the way? They both accepted it when you put your foot down, did they?

    2. Re:Economics 102 by Albanach · · Score: 3, Funny

      The consumer ultimately determines the value of any item sold.

      Sure they will, because corporations would never engage in anti-competitive actions to the detriment of the consumer.

    3. Re:Economics 102 by natehoy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Different markets.

      NYT has competition. There are still plenty of news sources out there, even if you're in the market for local news in New York City. If they set their price too high, people will choose others. They aren't a monopoly.

      Comcast is a monopoly, at least in my area. If Comcast sets their price too high, I could still choose others, but no one else is authorized to use the cheapest means to reach my house (coaxial cable), so it's not competition in any real sense. I can't go to anyone else and get wired Internet for any price, and wireless options are either slower or more expensive (and usually both). The only other possible competitor is our somewhat-new local phone company (Fairpoint) and they are imploding at the moment, so I don't expect to see any new service offerings from them between now and their Chapter 7 declaration, which many of us are expecting any month now.

      --
      "This post contains words, known to the State of California to cause thought. Wash brain thoroughly after reading."
    4. Re:Economics 102 by rhaacke · · Score: 1

      I'm not aware of anyone putting their foot down anywhere except maybe on their gas pedals. Demand for gas is as high as it ever was and supplies are beginning to run out. Short term manipulation of prices is possible, but supply and demand always win out in the end.

    5. Re:Economics 102 by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      NYT is not in a position to successfully engage in anti-competitive actions. They may try, but at this point it will only hurt them more.

      I'm not pro-laissez-faire markets anywhere, anytime, but I don't see why a proper competitive market cannot work those things out on its own, without outside "help", and in this case it seems to be one.

  7. Different Prices? by wisnoskij · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Why would different digital versions cost different amounts of money?
    What they should do is just charge $X for the stories, giving them all digital formats (as digital is relatively free to distribute). and then charge a little extra if they also want it in print, as that actually costs them money to print.

    This way it looks like if you want NYT available to you in all formats you would need to fork over ($10-$30)+Free+$14.95+(whatever they charge for paper)= [lots of money]

    --
    Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
    1. Re:Different Prices? by GSPride · · Score: 2, Informative

      This way it looks like if you want NYT available to you in all formats you would need to fork over ($10-$30)+Free+$14.95+(whatever they charge for paper)= [lots of money]

      If you're already a print subscriber, you get the Times Reader ($14.95 a month) free, as part of your subscription. I'm not sure if that carries over to their Kindle edition, or if it would carry over to the iPad edition.

      --
      Apple has never claimed not to be evil, they're just very stylish about it.
    2. Re:Different Prices? by Brandee07 · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure if that carries over to their Kindle edition

      Subscriber-only services from newspaper websites do not apply to Kindle subscribers.

      /only slightly bitter

  8. Re:Let the NYT go out of business by larry+bagina · · Score: 1

    I think they mean "record" as in "phonograph". Sure, a small minority still love vinyl but everyone else has moved on.

    --
    Do you even lift?

    These aren't the 'roids you're looking for.

  9. Walled gardens by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Doesn't anybody remember Compuserve? AOL? Do we have to wait for the Asians to free us from the walled gardens this time? I will not buy a "digital reader" until it is nothing but a computer under my control, with access to all media I choose to load on it.

    1. Re:Walled gardens by Pojut · · Score: 2, Informative

      Look at some of the less expensive "no name" eReaders out there. They don't look quite as nice as the big boys (Sony, Amazon, B&N, etc), but you can put whatever you want on them. Here are some good options:

      http://www.newegg.com/Store/SubCategory.aspx?SubCategory=782&Tpk=ereader

      http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16858653001

    2. Re:Walled gardens by nomadic · · Score: 1

      Some of the no-names are slightly less than the Sony reader, but not to the extent that I'd be willing to chance it; I picked up the 189 Sony and have been quite happy with it, not as crisp as the kindle but nice and compact and it supports epub.

    3. Re:Walled gardens by StayFrosty · · Score: 1

      So pretty much all of them. Nobody is locking you in to any particular book store. Just mount the reader as USB storage, copy your ebook to it and enjoy. Sony ereaders, the kindle, the nook, and pretty much all of the off-brand ereaders can do this.

      --
      "Frequently wrong, never in doubt."
  10. Business model fundamentally broken by QuoteMstr · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Dear reader, consider

    1. The newspapers business model is based on information scarcity, which is increasingly difficult to enforce today; yet
    2. Newspapers are great to have because they offer better-researched, more compressive, and less biased news and commentary than random blogs. Compare the Huffington Post to the Washington Post.

    The New York Times has chosen to cling to the conventional business model as long as possible. But there is a better way: recognize that newspapers are something special, and have worth in society as more than just another business. Endow them and let them self-finance.

    1. Re:Business model fundamentally broken by Rogerborg · · Score: 1

      Purleeease. There are no "less biased" news spigots, just ones that spurt your favourite flavour of Kool-Aid. Nobody ever made money by telling half their readers what they didn't want to hear.

      --
      If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
    2. Re:Business model fundamentally broken by rhsanborn · · Score: 1

      Newspapers are great to have because they offer better-researched, more compressive, and less biased news and commentary than random blogs.

      You haven't read the NY Times lately, have you?

    3. Re:Business model fundamentally broken by russotto · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Compare the Huffington Post to the Washington Post.

      One's a source of slanted news and shallow analysis which toes the Democratic Party line, and the other's a blog.

    4. Re:Business model fundamentally broken by commodore64_love · · Score: 1

      Endowments would enhance newspapers autonomy while shielding them from the economic forces that are now tearing them down.

      And by "endowments" he really means government handouts by the Congress. I call "shenanigans" on that. I no more want to support your "hobby" of reading the paper than you want to pay an extra $100 in taxes to support my modeling hobby. I am sick-and-tired of people thinking they have a right to suck dollars out of MY paycheck, and just as I fund my modeling hobby with my OWN money, so too should you fund your newspaper hobby with YOUR own money.

      As for the Jefferson quote, if it were updated to the present, he'd likely say that newspapers are as obsolete as concept as Kings or Nobility. He'd say that newspapers have been replaced with newer, better technologies called audio and video.

      Jefferson would also comment, "I can lay my hand on no part of the Constitution which grants Congress the authority to give the People's money to a private business." On the contrary, the 10th Amendment specifically reserves such power to the individual State legislatures.

      I'm sorry if this post sounded... um... aggressive. But I think it's time for this country to wakeup and realize we can no longer continue down this path of spend, spend, spend. See my signature.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    5. Re:Business model fundamentally broken by khallow · · Score: 1

      Endowment with public funds? No way for me. The NYT might not be able to cope without public funds, but I can cope without the NYT.

      Aside from squandering money on yet another useless cause, let us keep in mind that public endowments would allow government greater control over news sources.

    6. Re:Business model fundamentally broken by delinear · · Score: 4, Informative

      If only that were true - I don't know what the situation is in the US, but over here most of the newspapers switched from investigative journalism to barely informed gossip a couple of decades ago (facts are expensive, gossip is cheap, if you want to cut your costs you just boost the noise to signal ration some more). For them to now argue that they're better than blogs because of the high quality of their journalism is laughable.

    7. Re:Business model fundamentally broken by twitcher101 · · Score: 1

      Endowment with public funds? No way for me. The NYT might not be able to cope without public funds, but I can cope without the NYT. Aside from squandering money on yet another useless cause, let us keep in mind that public endowments would allow government greater control over news sources.

      Yet in the case of government funding (such as BBC), the press is freer, better, and more critical of the government. Providing funding to a free press ensures the survival of the press. The private model we have in the US is all about attracting advertisers and not offending them. Subscriptions are irrelevant except as demographics for ad pricing. News has little to do with it. Public support is the ONLY option for a free press that represents the people rather than the government, the advertiser, the corporate interest that owns the outlet, etc.

      --
      Time is an illusion, lunchtime doubly so- Zaphod beeblebrox
    8. Re:Business model fundamentally broken by intheshelter · · Score: 1

      It's not a free press if the government (especially ours these days) controls the purse strings. The press would only become more of a hand puppet for the government. The unofficial propaganda wing.

      As for funding the press, are you kidding me? Do we fund ALL newspapers, or just some of them? Which ones? How much more in taxes do you want to pay? Or should we just borrow more from China so we can have a "free press"? (Isn't that the ultimate in irony)?

    9. Re:Business model fundamentally broken by khallow · · Score: 1

      Not sure why you brought up the BBC. The UK is lucky that the BBC hasn't been subverted more than it is (for example, Doctor Who just did a hatchet job on President Obama). Nor is there's a reason to expect a US version to be like the BBC.

    10. Re:Business model fundamentally broken by timeOday · · Score: 2, Insightful

      There are no "less biased" news spigots, just ones that spurt your favourite flavour of Kool-Aid.

      Bull. If you want to argue no paper is 100% "unbiased" (whatever that would mean), then I agree, since it's an impossible standard. But some are much better than others at presenting factual information supporting multiple viewpoints on a wide range of issues.

    11. Re:Business model fundamentally broken by Gizzmonic · · Score: 1

      It's not a free press if the government (especially ours these days) controls the purse strings. The press would only become more of a hand puppet for the government. The unofficial propaganda wing.

      You obviously have not listened to the BBC before. They are openly antagonistic to the British government, sometimes to the point of ridiculousness.

      --
      (-1, Raw and Uncut is the only way to read)
    12. Re:Business model fundamentally broken by commodore64_love · · Score: 2, Interesting

      >>>Yet in the case of government funding (such as BBC), the press is freer, better, and more critical of the government.

      False.

      Biased BBC - biased-bbc.blogspot.com
      Criticism of the BBC - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_the_BBC
      BBC confesses bias on religion, politics - www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=52574
      BBC report damns its 'culture of bias' - www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article1942948.ece
      The bias by omission is nothing less than outraging - bustingbbcbias.blogspot.com/
      BBC bias in favor of Lisbon Treaty - democracymovementblog.blogspot.com/2009/10/bbc-bias-in-lisbon-treaty-reporting.html
      'EU bias' to be probed - www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1557542/EU-bias-of-Today-show-to-be-probed.html
      And on
      and on
      and on - http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&client=opera&hs=cur&rls=en&q=BBC+bias&btnG=Search&aq=4&aqi=g10&oq=

      Only someone who is in denial thinks the Government-funded BBC (or PBS or CBC) is unbiased. They are no different than any of us. We kiss-up to the boss to keep our jobs, and they are not different.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    13. Re:Business model fundamentally broken by commodore64_love · · Score: 1

      >>>The private model we have in the US is all about attracting advertisers and not offending them.

      It doesn't have to be that way. Newspapers in the 1700s, 1800s, and early 1900s used to run without ads, funded only by the pocket of their subscribers. Of course those papers only arrived once a week, but still we CAN go back to that model if we so choose.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    14. Re:Business model fundamentally broken by intheshelter · · Score: 1

      No, I'll admit I haven't. On the flip side, this is not the UK, it's the US and I have no confidence in our government's integrity nor our press' guts. I think it would turn into a propaganda wing over here. Kudos to the BBC for calling out the government over there though.

    15. Re:Business model fundamentally broken by Rogerborg · · Score: 1

      Axiomatically, nobody ever believes they're suffering from cognitive dissonance.

      --
      If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
  11. How quaint by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The marketing department would like to have a word with you.

  12. Realistic pricing by Kabloink · · Score: 1

    They need to be realistic about the price. The majority of Americans won't be willing to pay..... oh, it's for the iPad. Double the price.

    --
    "Thbbft!" - Bill the Cat
  13. Re:Economics 102.5 by number6x · · Score: 1, Insightful

    An even better example would be natural gas prices. Remember when Enron got caught in its scheme to artificially inflate natural gas prices? They had shell companies bidding and selling to each other driving the price up by creating artificial demand.

    Of course when the scheme was uncovered the price of natural gas should have dropped down to the consumer set price...

    It didn't drop at all. The price is at the still artificial high. The ultimate consumer of the product doesn't have the power to influence the local monopoly enough to drive the price down.

    The people still in the gas business are splitting the revenues from the mark up.

    Some free market huh?

  14. newspaper bussiness by fermion · · Score: 1
    Like so many transitional businesses, newspapers have to ask what is their core concern. Do they want to collect and write news that will attract customers, or run printing presses and distribution routes.

    While book publishers can claim that printing and distribution is not a major cost, newspapers cannot, and online newsreaders cannot subsidize the offline equipment. Given this anything over $100 a year is likely unreasonable. We do not have to a pay a human to deliver. We do not have to pay for a vehicle and gas. We do not have to pay for waste. The cut for the news agent does not have to be nearly as much.

    There is an argument for artificially keeping the perceived value high, but there is also a value to having more customers for the advertisers.

    --
    "She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
    1. Re:newspaper bussiness by grumling · · Score: 1

      Digital readers are only seeing a small fraction of the advertising that the print reader sees. I know what you're going to say, that because digital readers are able to be tracked they are worth more, but for the local advertiser (I would guess most of the NYT print readers are still local), they don't have as much access to the tracking tools as a major ad agency (yet). The New York market may be an exception in this regard, but I'd be willing to bet that most of the print media advertisers still use the feedback of "run an ad today and check the register receipts tomorrow" method of tracking effectiveness.

      Most ads you see in a local paper are placed by a "kitchen table" ad agency. They don't produce any copy, do any research beyond what the newspaper/media outlet tells them, and usually got their client list by stealing the Rolodex when they quit their ad sales job at the newspaper. These guys don't bother with doing any research as to effectiveness of ads, mostly because if they did, their client list would get smaller. They are great at playing businesses against each other, IE "Smith Ford is running a 10 spot a week rotator all year on KXYZ, so you need to be there too!" The last thing they want is someone to come along with a bunch of facts about who's looking at their client's ads, or worse, less inventory to sell. The Kindle's screen is mighty small when compared to a broadsheet paper. Less real estate means less inventory and higher rates that can't be justified in the current newspaper ad sales model.

      This model works very well for the blogger though, and I could see a day when a newspaper is more like an agent for their reporters, getting sponsors for columnists. That's going to open up a whole new can of worms when it comes to impartial reporting, but that's really a somewhat recent phenomenon anyway.

      --
      "Well, good luck finding a judge that doesn't run a bestiality site."
    2. Re:newspaper bussiness by Brandee07 · · Score: 1

      Digital readers are only seeing a small fraction of the advertising that the print reader sees.

      Kindle newspaper subscriptions have NO ads, and no classified section either.

      While it's a blessing as a reader, I imagine it chafes terribly for the newspaper's finance department, since I'm pretty sure they make most of their money selling ads.

      Then again, the internet at large has conditioned me into thinking that "ads are for free things, and things I pay for have no ads." I would probably be VERY upset if ads started showing up in my Kindle newspapers.

    3. Re:newspaper bussiness by bws111 · · Score: 1

      The problem they have is that they have (today) two major expenses: content and printing. They also have (today) three sources of revenue: print advertising, print subscription, and online advertising. As I understand it, the print subscription revenue basically pays the printing costs/delivery. The print advertising revenue pays for the collecting and writing of the news. The online advertising revenue is tiny, even though they are one of the most visited sites. So, as print goes away, they basically lose all of their revenue that is used to pay for content. People look at it (like you) and saying online is supporting print, but the reality is print supports online. As print goes away, online needs to pay for all the content, and that is likely to make a subscription cost more.

    4. Re:newspaper bussiness by Eponymous+Coward · · Score: 1

      Actually, the NYT's major expense is servicing their debt. A few years ago, they took on massive debt that is now crushing them. They are on the brink of bankruptcy because of bad management, not the internet.

      I understand their concern - they don't want the digital side of the business cannibalizing the print side. But guess what -- if they don't do it, somebody else will.

  15. Re:Economics 102.5 by furball · · Score: 1

    If the price is higher than the value it presents to the consumer, why would the consumer buy it? Are they stupid?

  16. Gray Lady? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Call me old fashioned but I prefer my ladies to be flesh coloured. Gray? WTF is ths - necrophilia?

  17. I know what it won't be... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Supply and demand.

  18. Re:Let the NYT go out of business by Dr_Ken · · Score: 1, Troll

    I think they mean "record" as in "silly, pompous, official organ of the establishment's conventional wisdom and the status quo". And: Did you get a whiff of the latest stink of scandal from the "All the news that's fit to print" outfit today? Yet another NYT plagiarism scandal.

    --
    "If you want to know what happens to you when you die, go look at some dead stuff."
  19. Re:Economics 102.5 by Mongoose+Disciple · · Score: 1

    It's the closest homeowner equivalent of vendor lock-in. If I have a natural gas oven or water heater, the price of not buying natural gas is high even if natural gas is overpriced relative to electricity or other forms of energy.

  20. What the hell? by Pojut · · Score: 1

    Why do the print guys have ANYTHING to say about what the digital version cost? Just lower print circulation down to bare minimum (i.e. enough for politicians and news stands), cut out home delivery, and go almost all digital, and then in 10-30 years cut out print circulation completely. It will lower their costs and increase their profit.

    Why are newspapers so scared about giving up the most expensive part of their business?

    1. Re:What the hell? by natehoy · · Score: 1

      Because it's the only one they still know how to make money on?

      Pay-for online access is still in its infancy in the news business, and free competition is rampant because papers have traditionally made their money off the print editions and offered online access as an also-ran. Now the paper subscriptions are dwindling and they are still losing money online, and based on the outrage you see every time one of the papers decides that they need to actually make money on their online offerings you can see why they might be afraid.

      --
      "This post contains words, known to the State of California to cause thought. Wash brain thoroughly after reading."
    2. Re:What the hell? by nedlohs · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Cutting print circulation to that extent results in each printed copy of the paper costing $12,134.1

      Compare the cost of a full page ad in the NYT with the cost of a banner ad on a web page. That might be a hint as to why they'd rather not cannibalize their printed subscription base.

      * The result of extensive economic calculations, or made up?

    3. Re:What the hell? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't forget that in big companies like the NYT, there are dozens of departments that each function like semi-independent companies. Print division and online division are more or less competitors that try to cannibalise each other.

  21. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  22. A place in history. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    Take the two biggest fucked up States in the Nation (New York and California) and then look at the publications from their cultural capitals (LA and New York) and ask ourselves do we really want to be like either of these groups of idiots, much less listen to what they have to say.

    Now answer me this: Exactly how is the New York Times relavent anymore?

    As far as the price goes, it will continue to work its way to zero as all media with little worth will. Who cares who controls the price, in the long run in it will not matter.

  23. Re:Economics 102.5 by Rolgar · · Score: 1

    It takes a little bit to switch providers. You need to figure out how you're going to pay for your electric water heater and furnace\space heaters. If people decide the cost of changing doesn't pay for itself through the reduced cost of energy, many will wait until they have no choice but to replace the unit, and switch then.

  24. News For Ipad Readers by mdwh2 · · Score: 1

    Indeed! I fail to see why this article is talking about the Ipad. It's not an e-reader[*], and it's not even released. Yet already, the media are trying to spin it as being a generic term for e-readers? It was bad enough doing this with Iphone/phone, but at least there they waited until the thing was released.

    When in years to come, Apple fans are predictably and tediously claiming that Apple "popularised" e-reading, remember it now: it's the media who are doing the popularising, over a device that doesn't exist, and even if it did, it wouldn't fit into that market.

    [*] If someone is happy with LCD and short battery life, then any bog standard laptop, netbook or tablet out there is an "e-reader".

  25. Multiplying profits by gmuslera · · Score: 1

    They have profit from the printed version, even if the cost that the user pay includes the cost of paper/ink/infrastructure to make it, plus all the costs around distribution (that is a big percent of the total). The digital version and distribution have its costs too, but are close to nil for each reader. and the distribution goes really global and on time. And that, without taking into account the income of ads. Is a field where they have more potential readers, but more competition too. But still,they choose to raise their profits several times selling the digital version at a price comparable to the print version one, a move that could have some margin be done if you have the monopoly of something, but they dont have the monopoly of information in internet.

    Oh, well... the digital world needs Darwin awards too.

    1. Re:Multiplying profits by bws111 · · Score: 1

      Do you know how to read a financial report? Have you read the NYT's financial report? I guess you have not done this, so here is some info for you.

      In the last quarter, NYT had ad revenues of $261M. 86% percent of that was from print, leaving a whopping $36.5M income from online ads (and they already are the #1 online newpaper, so there is not much room for improvement there)

      During the same period, they had subscription (print) revenues of $241M

      Costs during this period were $525M, of which $32M were for raw materials (paper, ink, etc)

      The total profit (which you snidely claim they are trying to increase) was -$25M (yes, negative, ie. a loss)

      So, let's do some math. Let's say they drop print altogether. If we assume the cost of actually printing and distributing is 4x the cost of raw materials (which seems pretty high), they can save $128M dollars. However, by doing this they also lose $241M from circulation revenue, and $224M in print ad revenue. That leaves them with costs of $397M and revenue of $36M. Do you see a problem here? If they keep the same number of subscribers online as they had with print they would have to increase the subscription cost more than 50% over the print subscription cost just to break even.

      So pretty much their choices are: continue bleeding money and go out of business (darwin award winner), slash their costs by of 90% at which point they cease being the NYT lose what little ad revenue they have and go out out business (darwin award winner), or get their customers to actually pay for the product and stay in business.

  26. Re:Economics 102.5 by NoisySplatter · · Score: 1

    Yes.

    --
    In Soviet Russia meme tires of you!
  27. Re:Economics 102.5 by natehoy · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Yeah, why would the consumer want to cook? Or heat their house? Or want hot water?

    Silly consumers, buying overpriced necessities from a monopoly! They should just pay $5000 and convert all their appliances over to run on energy provided by the local electric grid.

    Oh, wait, that's usually another monopoly....

    --
    "This post contains words, known to the State of California to cause thought. Wash brain thoroughly after reading."
  28. If you have to pay... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If you have to pay for news, how good can it possibly be? The very act of the news agency profiting means they are driven to give you the news you want to hear in an effort to gain more subscriptions.

    I'd much prefer to read news from free sources who are reporting with no vested interest in the story one way or the other.

  29. offer a spread and see which one sells by petes_PoV · · Score: 1

    Have a range of offerings from a budget version to a gold-plated one. Set them at different prices (duh!) and see which is / are the most popular. Hardly rocket science. I don't see why they're so hung up on talking about *the* price for *the* publication.

    --
    politicians are like babies' nappies: they should both be changed regularly and for the same reasons
  30. Nonsense by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    It didn't drop at all. The price is at the still artificial high.

    That statement is factually untrue.

    Gas prices have been set by the real market. Even in California after Enron.

    1. Re:Nonsense by MozeeToby · · Score: 1

      Not saying your wrong, but using a graph from 2002 to the present to show how an event that happened in 2001 has affected the price doesn't seem quite fair. Especially considering that said graph trends upward from 2002 to the present.

    2. Re:Nonsense by number6x · · Score: 1

      Switch to annual view and your point becomes clearer. Enron collapsed at the end of 2001.

      The annual chart clearly shows a drop at that time when the artificial 'propping up' Enron was engaged in was ended.

      Thank you for this information

  31. Not so simple... by MaWeiTao · · Score: 0, Redundant

    Most people seem to believe that because content is available in electronic form that it's somehow significantly cheaper to produce than in print. Having had some experience with the printing industry I can assure you that printing costs are relatively small compared to the overall cost of producing a newspaper or magazine. And in the case on NY Times or WSJ printing costs must be even cheaper given the relationship they've obviously established with their printers, assuming it isn't done in-house. Also keep in mind that some of the expense that may be spared by not printing physical copies inevitably goes to hosting and site maintenance.

    And most publications live on advertising, almost more so than actual sales. Another department at my company does a lot of publication work and their clients have cut pages if they don't have a sufficient density of advertising versus content. There are obvious exceptions where they're just taking advantage and cramming the magazine excessively full of ads. Magazines like Maxim, Cosmopolitan and other such crap come to mind.

    However, advertising on the web versus print are very different animals. While web ads can be more intrusive they're also easier to ignore. It's a lot easier to quantify their effectiveness. So it's difficult to charge what would be charged for print ads. Although in print, the publications actually have the work of having to place these ads and ensure there are no printing issues with them.

    I had to deactivate ad block to get a sense for how they place advertising. I'm surprised by how few ads both NYTimes and WSJ run on their homepage. WSJ features a house ad at the time (advertising for themselves) and the first other ad appears pretty far down on the right which means if you're browsing on a netbook, for example, you probably wouldn't even see it. NYTimes has two small ads to either side of their header and then links to sponsored content here and there which most people may miss.

    On the other hand, visit some of the news aggregate sites, anything from Gawker Media is a good example. Their sites feature more invasive advertising and they routinely do themed promotions, like one they're running now for some HBO show. So they're obviously getting a lot more bang for their buck even though they're producing far less content themselves. Of course the audience is a little different. I think most readers of WSJ and NYTimes would be pissed if suddenly they started covering their sites in advertising. Whereas the visitors to these other sites, who I'd say skew younger, tend to have lower standards and are more tolerant of this sort of thing. But of course, it enables them to continue offering content for free.

    The work that NYTimes and WSJ does is not cheap by any stretch of the imagination. So if charging for content doesn't work they need to embrace a more advertising-heavy model. And even then they may be forced to cut staff and content which will hurt the quality of their work and make them a little more generic.

    I personally hate advertising. But I acknowledge that sometimes you have to pay a little more for quality. Unfortunately, on the internet people seem to believe that everything should be free. They're apparently oblivious to all the work that goes into creating this content.

    1. Re:Not so simple... by zippthorne · · Score: 1

      People keep talking about the price of print and the revenue from advertisers, but no one mentions one very relevant number: the per-person ad revenue.

      If you know the per-person ad revenue, then you can easily calculate the break-even price at which the print version and a theoretical ad-free online version would have no loss in revenue, presuming zero net change in customer base.

      So, their total revenue in 2008 was about $3 billion according to google finance, and they sell an average of about 1.2 million papers a day according to one of the investor reports, so they're making no more than ~$7 per copy. (since total revenue on their stock page may include things other than "ad and subscription revenue") I don't know how to break that down any further, though because the info I was able to obtain did not include any data about the price people were actually paying for subscriptions.

      Still, that comes out to a lot more than $30 per month, which surprised me quite a bit.

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
  32. Captain Obvious To The Rescue! by Qbertino · · Score: 1

    Errrm, ... the market and the customers? ... Maybe? ... Just some random thought.

    --
    We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
  33. Looking back at Economics 101... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Unfortunately, supply-and-demand economics models fall apart when you're talking about monopolies, which cable companies and energy companies are at the local level. It's most definitely not a competitive market. You can actually almost say that supply in this case is perfectly elastic, where one supplier sets the price and if people don't want to pay that price, then they don't buy it. Demand for essentials is fairly inelastic, especially in the short run, since basically consumers always will need gas, and they tend to need about as much today as they did yesterday.

    Of course, in the long run when prices go up people will work to conserve gas a little bit to save money (y'know, turn down the thermostat, use less hot water in the shower, that kinda stuff) so demand goes down, but the gas companies still rake in huge profits because people can't COMPLETELY stop buying gas.

  34. OT: a la carte pricing by NotQuiteReal · · Score: 3, Interesting

    the "lyfestyle" and other sections I really dont care about so they have a zero value to me

    This bundling is a problem in other places as well... I am this close (fingers 3mm apart) to canceling ALL of my cable TV, because the prices keeps going up - the reason "channels such as CNN and ESPN are raising their rates."

    Fine, can I get a package with Discovery, History, and a few others, WITHOUT CNN and ESPN? no.

    Broadcasters are starting to have many of the same issues The Press is having.

    --
    This issue is a bit more complicated than you think.
    1. Re:OT: a la carte pricing by Lumpy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Actually I have canceled Cable-TV. It's worthless to me and my wife. If we want to watch TV we turn on the TV and tune in one of the local ATSC channels. If there is a specific show, mythbusters for example, I simply retrieve it from a friends house where I set them up a mythtv box. we add what few shows we like to it and make them transcode to avi on a rss feed for me. when we go over there I simply grab the files on my netbook and we are good to go.

      I get the free tv shows without the risk of torrenting them and having the Content police come and kill us, my friend get's a high end DVR built for him.

      works great. I'd LOVE to be able to subscribe to Mythbusters as a tv show for $2.00 a month whe nthere are new episodes (maybe $12.00 a year total cost as they make very few episodes anymore) but they will not do that. Discovery will not sell me a non drm file I can play anywhere.

      so my only choices are record at friends house, or download a torrent. either way I'm not spending $100.00 a month to stream utter crap into my home for the 3 tv shows I have any interest in.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    2. Re:OT: a la carte pricing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      works great. I'd LOVE to be able to subscribe to Mythbusters as a tv show for $2.00 a month whe nthere are new episodes (maybe $12.00 a year total cost as they make very few episodes anymore) but they will not do that. Discovery will not sell me a non drm file I can play anywhere.

      That what amuses me so much about Big Content. They complain about falling revenue, but if you try to do business with them, they slap your hand and say, "Get your fucking money out of my face. I have never been so offended in my life!"

    3. Re:OT: a la carte pricing by ickleberry · · Score: 2, Funny

      mythbusters for example, I simply retrieve it from a friends house where I set them up a mythtv box

      Well that would work fine for an episode of mythbusters but that does that mean I have to pull an episode of Top Gear out of an actual gear box?

    4. Re:OT: a la carte pricing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Obviously a lot of us would go with a la carte pricing, but the question is would they make as much money as with ridiculous & unreasonable teir packages, ie: science channels w/o the Science Channel (wth is that about?)? The answer is a resounding no.

      I hate to say it, but the majority of people aren't forward thinking enough, and will pay what they are billed because they want what they want and don't give it a second thought. Do you know what my friends Insight Cable bill is each month? 200 Freaking dollars!!! 200!!! My friend is very low middle class, pays 200 for cable (and internets and phone), and wonders why he's broke all the time.

      Without a radical shift in an appreciable number of peoples economic attitude, people like us who won't pay $45 (or 65, or 115, or 200) for a single show are just stuck without that show.

      Or else like you, they come up with a fantastic plan to fix it. I just stopped watching Mythbusters when I decided cable destroyed itself for me. (Ask if you can get basic cable, they'll lie to you twice).

  35. Print media still doesn't understand marginal cost by RandCraw · · Score: 1

    When the cost of producing one more of your product is zero (e.g. on-line media), your pricing model has to change. You're not delivering a rag to peoples' doorsteps any more. If priced right, it's feasible to sell a billion more of your product. If priced wrong, you're overlooked and irrelevant. And bankrupt. That's mistake #1.

    Of course, if you charge a truly nominal fee ($1-$5/month) you'll attract a far greater number of readers, and wield a great deal more influence politically and culturally. For a newspaper like the NYT, that's especially important if you want mindshare and if your columnists are to win Pulitzers. Increasing the number of eyes on your prize "gets out The Word".

    Your price also needs to reflect the way people use your product. Unlike readers of snail newspapers, most net-denizens follow many media sources. But they scan them, not read them closely they way you read a newspaper. If you price the product like a newspaper, you force the consumer into *your* model of consumption, not theirs. That's mistake #2.

    I'm a big fan of the NYT, and would happily subscribe to continue my access, but only at the right price. That said, I'd be hard pressed to pay for ANY daily newspaper these days, so a subscription fee over $60/year just ain't gonna happen. I'd go back to taking The Economist on paper and RSS the Reuters/AP websites instead.

    Wake up, NYT. In the e-conomy you either publish MORE or you perish.

  36. Atlanta Journal and Constitution is clueless by Shivetya · · Score: 1

    too many of their articles encourage you to go online to view even more in depth content, content that apparently is free and if not bugmenot can do it (they don't charge for it)

    Another reason the print side is more costly, more union involvement at each stage. I am curious how they transition to digital without maintaining the legacy costs

    --
    * Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
  37. Re:Economics 102.5 by cartzworth · · Score: 1

    Can you explain how a newspaper with plenty of competition is anything like a utility? News is highly competitive with blogs and internet sites in the market places. The parent's mention of Comcast (a monopoly with high distribution & infrastructure costs) and Shell (sells a very limited-supply good, oil, not information like newspapers do) are false comparisons.

  38. Clicked the wrong mod button. by Adaeniel · · Score: 1

    Please ignore.

  39. Yeah, but, by david@ecsd.com · · Score: 1

    can you still do the crossword on it?

  40. A billion dollars! by Col.+Klink+(retired) · · Score: 2, Funny

    Why not just charge a billion dollars? That way, they'd only need to sell one...

    --

    -- Don't Tase me, bro!

  41. victorf by victorf · · Score: 1

    Beyond News, newspapers are delivery vehicles for advertisements. When you subscribe to any newspaper you are merely granting permission for the paper to send you their paid advertisements and possibly some new items. All newspapers should be free and the operating cost paid by the advertisers. Will the newspapers delivered to your Kindle be ad-free? Perhaps this sort of content should be treated in the same manner as your RSS feeds.

    --
    WindMan
  42. This is Slashdot by Infiniti2000 · · Score: 1

    No one here RTFA anyway, so what do we care about more articles on-line? They could charge $0 or $1000, but it's irrelevant for us! Not only do they want us to RTFA, they want to charge us, too!? STFU!

  43. That much per month?? by Necron69 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Are they nuts? I honestly doubt whether I'll renew my local paper (The Denver Post) next year. I'm paying about $35/year for a Thursday-Sunday subscription, and even that seems like too much. The news is outdated and I've read it all online by the time the paper is delivered. The only thing I'm really still getting it for is local advertisements and coupons. The NY Times has none of those things, and I can read the same AP/Reuters articles anywhere. I could care less about their editorials and investigative stuff. If it is really important, it will show up all over the web in short order.

    Necron69

    1. Re:That much per month?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I could care less about their editorials and investigative stuff. If it is really important, it will show up all over the web in short order.

      Unless everyone thinks like you do, in which case there will no longer be the money to write the editorials and produce the investigative stuff, so it won't appear at all.

    2. Re:That much per month?? by zummit · · Score: 1

      > ... (The Denver Post) next year. I'm paying about $35/year for a Thursday-Sunday subscription

      Just so everyone knows, the Monday Denver Post is little more than a pamphlet. The Tuesday edition is a little bigger but mostly advertisements. Wednesday you finally get an almost complete paper, so that Thursday-Sunday deal is really the best way to get the Denver Post.

      [I myself am still a sucker having just renewed for 7 days a week.]

  44. Re:$10 for crap, or $20-$30 for crap? Does it matt by jackl420 · · Score: 1

    The NYT, were it actually concerned with journalism, would themselves be ripping into Wall Street and corporate America. But then again, I suppose they can't, because they seem more concerned with advertising revenue over realistic and quality reporting.

    You obviously don't read the Op-Ed page of the Times, specifically writers Paul Krugman, Roger Cohen, Nicholas Kristof, Frank Rich, (even "the earth is flat" guy) Tom Friedman and Maureen Dowd. They do what you are saying they don't on an almost daily basis.

      I've clipped dozens of articles from those writers particularly since the Wall Street meltdown in 2008 that are indeed "ripping into Wall Street and corporate America" and Obama who they largely support.

  45. Re:Economics 102.5 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Gas demand (both natural and gasoline) is fairly inelastic. That is why consumers are not able to drive down costs - they can only reduce their consumption a little without significant lifestyle changes. For a newspaper, I imagine that demand is much more elastic - you have a lot of other alternative options (TV news, internet, other newspapers, etc). I don't know about natural gas, but for gasoline the market is pretty competitive - that's why you see constant fluctuations in price as one station competes with another.

  46. Then put it on the front page by brunes69 · · Score: 1

    Every newspaper has stuff like that in OP-Ed.

    The OP is trying to point out that this stuff needs to migrate out of Op-Ed and into the paper itself, instead of just re-publishing AP content.

    1. Re:Then put it on the front page by jackl420 · · Score: 1

      That may be true for other papers, but no, there's little AP or other wire coverage on the front page of the Times. It's pretty much their own by-lined reporters, which is of course rare for all but the largest daily papers like the NYT.

      Also, as far as criticizing the "powers that be" like my parent was talking about, you would tend to find that more in the Opinion pages of a reputable newspaper. Maybe Murdoch type tabloids like The New York Post put their opinions on the front page in the manner in which news reports are slanted, but this criticism cannot be made of traditional broadsheets like the Times.

      You also won't find writers like those I mentioned who frequently take an "anti-establishment" position on the pages of the Wall Street Journal or the Washington Post, for instance. Compare any of the writers I mentioned to the Post's David Broder or Charles Krauthammer who at best spout middle of the road conventional wisdom from inside the beltway bubble.

  47. Re:Economics 102.5 by nedlohs · · Score: 1

    You can either pay what the supplier asks, or you can freeze to death. You can decide which is the stupid option.

  48. Re:$10 for crap, or $20-$30 for crap? Does it matt by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That's funny, I feel that the organisations that pushed for cheap loans to poor people and developing nations and now later turn around and complain that checks were inadequate should be torn new assholes for hypocrisy, and consider newspapers that don't mention this to have a leftwing tinge. Obama hasn't gotten much shitck for in principle breaking the law about giving labour unions more of the GM pot than the legally strongest claimants had a right ot, and threatening the company if they tried to block it. But each to our own I guess.

  49. more for less? by erwin · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I had a Kindle subscription to the NYT, but canceled it recently because it didn't have a lot of the cool stuff - like the puzzle. I couldn't see the point to paying for a neutered product.

  50. Newspapers Miss Yet Another Boat by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Newspaper corporations are expert at missing the boat on media changes. Newspapers could easily have gone into radio when it became a mass medium in the 1920s-1930s. Either running an entire station that just read the paper over the air, maybe with extra features inserted, in between the ads, or just syndicating readings to other stations. They could have done the same when TV came around. Both times they let their hugely popular, powerful and profitable industry get knocked down by newcomers in the new medium. By the time the Internet arrived in prime time, they were already pros at missing the boat, and this time missed the perfect medium for them to dominate.

    Now they'll screw up mobile readers, because they are locked in a late 1800s mentality. They hate interactivity, customization by readers, sharing, or anything else that's different from being the voice of a central authority on facts increasingly out of touch with the reality they say they cover.

    The only new medium newspapers ever tried to adopt was movies, with newsreels. A terrible way to present anything but the most sensationalistic and trivial news, but an effective propaganda tool. That is what the newspaper industry reduces itself to by treating its consumers with contempt, instead of embracing opportunities to communicate more effectively: a manipulative entertainment tool.

    No wonder nobody even wraps fish with them anymore.

    --

    --
    make install -not war

    1. Re:Newspapers Miss Yet Another Boat by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Newspaper corporations are expert at missing the boat on media changes. Newspapers could easily have gone into radio when it became a mass medium in the 1920s-1930s. Either running an entire station that just read the paper over the air, maybe with extra features inserted, in between the ads, or just syndicating readings to other stations."

      This used to be illegal as it was thought that having all the media outlets in one market controlled by one coporate entity would be bad for the consumers.

    2. Re:Newspapers Miss Yet Another Boat by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 1

      It would have been illegal if the newspaper owned all of the radio stations in a market. Except where some other corporation owned the sole radio station in a listening area, there was practically never such a monopolization of radio, especially during the 1920s-30s.

      The monopolization of media markets rose as newspapers failed to compete in other media. Now we've got everything wrong: news orgs like newspapers that have both breadth and depth of coverage stay in narrow niche mediums like newsprint or gazettes, while narrow corporate interests flood the mass and interactive media with "infotainverts" that subvert the necessary informational flow in our society.

      If newspapers had formed a backbone in cable TV news since the 1980s, the public might never have accepted the media monopolization that keeps us so ignorant and disinformed.

      --

      --
      make install -not war

  51. Naysayers Unite by lackofsleep · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Because you're dead right in this case.

    People are not stupid. They're not going to pay that much for a subscription to the mishmash that the paper edition has to be. This newspapers and others have stars in the eyes. This former journalist makes a good argument here

  52. Split the Company by jj00 · · Score: 1

    I have to admit that I know nothing about the newspaper industry, and if this was so easy to solve that it would have been done already. However, I can’t resist thinking that most of these companies will need to fail in order to allow other models that can be profitable to rise out of the ashes.

    Maybe it's time for the company to split into 2 parts - one for content, one for printing. In other words, completely outsource the printing/delivery of the paper into a separate company. I know they do this on some level now. They could change their model to where they could charge a price for the content, and add on a "delivery" charge for receiving it (which would be from the print company). If you are using their online reader the charge would be free, but physically printing it and sending it would incur an additional charge.

    The print division can then focus towards getting their costs under control and adding features. Maybe they would be inclined to make themselves more efficient like using on-demand printing, other paper sources, customized sections (only receive only sections you desire), etc.

  53. Who will control the cost? by Caste11an · · Score: 1

    The answer to the submission's query is so simple that it's mind-boggling that folks at the NYT and elsewhere haven't even considered it. Who will control the cost of the NYT on digital readers? The Consumer.

    If iPad/Nook/Kindle/netbook/etc users aren't willing to pay the price for the product, the Times will have to bring the price down until enough people are willing to pay.

    This is an ongoing problem with print media. They think they're still playing in the arena they've been in for the last 100 years. It ain't so, and the awakening will be a rude one for them.

  54. Re:Print media still doesn't understand marginal c by ColdWetDog · · Score: 1

    When the cost of producing one more of your product is zero (e.g. on-line media), your pricing model has to change.

    Hmm. Bandwith is free. Servers are free. Web design, construction and maintenance are free.

    Must be a neat world you live in. How are the replicators working?

    --
    Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
  55. Lesson learned by the Dallas Morning News by geemon · · Score: 1

    The NY Times print folks need to learn from the same lessons the leadership of the Dallas Morning News learned a year or two back - namely that news consumers do not consider the print and electronic versions of the paper equal or interchangeable substitutes. That is, there is far less crossover in each of the customer bases than the newspaper execs or the conventional wisdom might suggest. Unfortunately, if the print folks win out, they will learn this lesson the hard way.

  56. New business model? by dorre · · Score: 1

    Here is a crazy idea:

    What if the news papers started give their readers a choice in how they want news. Have a basic fee for the content, say 15$/month. Then add a certain sum for each medium you want to use. Say 8$/month for paper distribution, 1$/month for digital edition distribution. 1300$/month for the version were Pamela Anderson comes to your house and reads you the newspaper.

    Then there would be no discussion on how to charge. Each medium would be priced accordingly to costs of delivery and demand.

    1. Re:New business model? by dorre · · Score: 1

      I think I overpriced the Pamela Anderson alternative :/

  57. Re:$10 for crap, or $20-$30 for crap? Does it matt by steelfood · · Score: 1

    The value of the NYT and other large newspapers isn't and shouldn't be just spitting out the latest breaking news. It should be about finding facts and figures, making meaningful comparisons and correlations that us normal people wouldn't be able to find.

    For example, it'd be great if they provided insight into the number of recent robberies in a particular neighborhood when reporting a robbery. Or the amount of time service delays cost subway passengers per month in an article about subway service cuts and changes.

    They don't even have to generate this data. They just need to be able to aggregate it, filter the meaningful from the irrelevant, and present it in the story. The reader comes to his or her own conclusions about society based on the presented information.

    The purpose of the newspaper is to report facts. Social commentary belongs to a section called Opinions, and for a very good reason. If you wanted social commentary, go read a blog or a tabloid.

    --
    "If a nation expects to be ignorant and free in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be."
  58. Op-ed's aren't news by commodoresloat · · Score: 1

    The problem with NYT coverage during the leadup to the Iraq war wasn't the op-eds. It was the freakin "unbiased" stories from a journalist with a long-time axe to grind publishing story after story on page 1 screaming that Baghdad was minutes away from a full scale nuclear capability.

  59. It must not be important if... by Hylandr · · Score: 1

    I can read any kind of news from a first person perspective on a blog or forum.

    If they expect me to pay for the privilege of consuming their sensationalist hyperbole then what they have to say must not be that important. I could care less and they won't be receiving a page impression from me.

    - Dan.

    --
    ~ People that think they are better than anyone else for any reason are the cause of all the strife in the world.
  60. Re:Economics 102.5 by furball · · Score: 1

    So you're saying then that the consumer looked at the costs (what the supplier charged versus freezing) and determined that the costs is less valuable than freezing? Sounds like the consumer made the determining choice in setting the price of the commodity.

  61. tl/dr AMIRITE? by weston · · Score: 2, Funny

    Sorry, but print is dying.

    Sure, but mid- and long-form don't have to.

    In this twitterific RSS-enabled environment feeding an entire generation of instant-gratification kids (uh, talking about 12 - 24 year-olds), who also seem to be "suffering" from ADD/ADHD, just how long do you think the type of reader profile YOU speak of is going to be around?

    I don't know the exact length, but I'm pretty sure it's only few decades short of the end of society as we know it.

    I'd explain, but that's probably a tl/dr.

  62. They loved it! by SmallFurryCreature · · Score: 1

    It put my foot firmly down with shell, on the accelerator... they named me their customer of the day. Now if you excuse me, I got to lube up for the arab nations else they won't be selling me a barrel of oil I need to drive to the end of the street.

    --

    MMO Quests are like orgasms:

    You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.

  63. Unbiased often means: agrees with me. by SmallFurryCreature · · Score: 1

    What you got to realize is that for most people unbiased really means: they are saying what I want to hear.

    True unbiased reporting is non-existent. If you want to see it, go to your local government weather station and look up the temps of the day. That is unbiased news. Don't read the weather report because "cold" is already a bias based on the reporters view on temperatures. What I find cold is not what you find cold.

    In one of the articles you link the BBC would not show an item that might insult muslims while allowing every other religion to be insulted. Clearly biased (and anyone who actually watches the BBC knows they are biased, recently they had several hours of "examination of Islam" that might as well have been written by Osama for its complete lack of any critism whatsoever, it was a travel brochure rather then a report let alone a documentary) but what can they do? People get killed over Islam, and the BBC would be roasted alive if it started a riot, so they shut up.

    And by its nature TV attracts the super rich elite that does not actually life in the real world. Quick, name a single TV personality making less then 100.000 a year. Can't think of one can you. They don't exist. So they report on cultural problems when their only exposure to it is that the janitor has a dark skin. In Holland a few years ago you had a program "Ook dat nog" that started to be preachy towards the end about race issues. One problem, not a single non-white person on the panel AND the station that aired had a tv-cook who had refused muslims service. Did they happen to mention that? No sirree. Racism only exists in other people.

    If you want real unbiased news, you got to roll your own. Follow several news sources, it can be very amusing to see what political leaning you can give to a story just by leaving out a few sentences.

    --

    MMO Quests are like orgasms:

    You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.

  64. Re:Economics 102.5 by nedlohs · · Score: 1

    Yes, which you're right. Your original statement is correct

    It was completely irrelevant to the post you replied to, which is why I misunderstood what you were saying. But there's no rule about staying relevant.

  65. You're aware that WSJ can be read for free, right? by Bourdain · · Score: 1

    putting aside the ethics of the situation...

    any article you want to read on WSJ.com can be read via doing a google news search for it and then clicking on the generated link

    such a strategy yields an unpaywalled version of the article

  66. Competition laws by tepples · · Score: 1

    In general, associations of people have the freedom to contract with other associations of people. Competition laws such as the Sherman Act and Clayton Act limit this freedom on paper, but over the past decade or so, it appears the United States has leniently enforced these laws. Otherwise, there might have been lawsuits when all movie studios decided to adopt CSS encryption on DVDs at the same time.

    1. Re:Competition laws by Patch86 · · Score: 1

      Preventing illegal copying (which has always been illegal under copyright law) is an entirely different kettle of fish, politically speaking, to a group of rival companies unanimously raising prices at the same time so as to avoid being beaten by the competition.

      One is an enforcement of existing legal rights, the other is trying to bypass the usual free-market system to make more money.

    2. Re:Competition laws by tepples · · Score: 1

      Preventing illegal copying (which has always been illegal under copyright law)

      CSS in conjunction with the DMCA goes further than preventing illegal copying. It also prevents otherwise legal copying done subject to the limitations on exclusive rights under sections 107 through 122 of the U.S. Copyright Act.

      One is an enforcement of existing legal rights

      Newspapers have the legal right to prevent non-subscribers from copying articles whose copyright they own from servers that they control.

    3. Re:Competition laws by Patch86 · · Score: 1

      Absolutely they do. Everyone has the right to charge whatever they like for what they sell.

      That's not the illegal part. Colluding with your competitors to simultaneously raise your prices is very illegal.

  67. Re:$10 for crap, or $20-$30 for crap? Does it matt by cayenne8 · · Score: 1
    "ou obviously don't read the Op-Ed page of the Times, specifically writers Paul Krugman, Roger Cohen, Nicholas Kristof, Frank Rich, (even "the earth is flat" guy) Tom Friedman and Maureen Dowd. They do what you are saying they don't on an almost daily basis.

    I've clipped dozens of articles from those writers particularly since the Wall Street meltdown in 2008 that are indeed "ripping into Wall Street and corporate America" and Obama who they largely support."

    Yep...a good laundry list of the left you have there.

    I am a little surprised that they have been ripping into the 'chosen one' myself. Then, I read it and realize they're only bad because Obama and company haven't moved us even further into the leftist, govt. runs everything category by now. By and large I think they completely agreen with what Obama and Dem's have done so far...they just want even more of it.

    --
    Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
  68. Mod parent up by Bourdain · · Score: 1

    Mod parent up

  69. newspapers are ignoring the lesson of iTune by peter303 · · Score: 1

    If you make it cheap and convenient enough, your market will expand. Anything above $5 a month is too much in my opinion.

  70. I dont understand by Ozric · · Score: 1

    The consumer and the market will control the price. They are fee to ask whatever they want, let them see what the market will bare or they price themselves out of the market.

    Am I missing something here?

  71. Re:Economics 102.5 by Jedi+Alec · · Score: 1

    Wow, these things are also monopolies in the US? I live in a country smaller than most of your states and I can pick from any of over a dozen different companies for my electricity or gas...you know, the whole free market thing you guys seem to be so fond of?

    Of course the actual grid is a different company from the one selling the product...in theory(laws go fully into effect at the end of this year).

    Note that changing provider does not constitute an interruption in service, it's just a matter of 1 day paying company X and the next day it'll be company Y.

    --

    People replying to my sig annoy me. That's why I change it all the time.
  72. Quite so, indeed! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And indeed indeed !

    And those new-fangled horseless carriages shouldn'a be allowed on the road, unless preceded by a walking man waving a red flag fifteen feet ahead of it. The damnable infernal contraptions are mere fashion and playthings, anyway. Carriages are and have always been much more comfortable and safe. Weel worth the extra ha'Guinea, or two.

    All the carriage industry has to do is improve quality a bit, and it'll promptly recover.