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iPhone's Liquid Sensors Can Be Triggered By Wintertime Use
An anonymous reader writes "The Polish website Moje Jabluszko ran an experiment that proves the poor reliability of the liquid contact indicators (original, in Polish) installed by Apple in the iPhone. They performed three different tests to challenge the LCIs, which they recorded as a movie. They decided to mimic regular usage of the iPhone — meaning, you go outside where it could be cold or warm, then move inside in a building where temperature might be dramatically different, but still within covered conditions. So, they placed the iPhone in its box for one hour outside at -11 C, then moved it inside at room temperature for 24 hours. They repeated the experiment 3 times, and after the third cycle they could show that the LCI located in the audio jack plug started turning red! This is a clear proof that LCIs are not reliable and could turn red while the iPhone has been used under the defined environmental requirements defined by Apple. Here, only the condensing water could have been in contact with the sensor. In other words, even moving in and out during regular winter time will make you iPhone LCI turn red!" (In the tech specs for the iPhone, Apple rates the non-operating temperature range as -20 to 45 C.)
We do a lot of service on macbooks at work, and there's been times when we've taking a unit in for service that "won't turn on" and the user "has no idea why", only to find out they're drippy inside, and none of the liquid sensors are tripped.
LCI are just a way for companies to worm out of actually delivering on warranties.
The operating temperatures of 0 to 35C are completely held within the non-operating range of -4 to 45C. Sounds like a trick way of saying the phone isn't actually meant to work.
Move to California.
Wow - why do they even sell them here in Canada, then? Am I not supposed to take it outside below -20C? That's almost every night for half the winter! In fact, though, I've had my iPod Touch (1st Gen) for about 3 years, and I take and *use* it outdoors in -30 to -20 temperatures all the time - no problem. It's actually survived a dunking in the bathtub, too.
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Uhm.. yes, and the OTHER part of the 'defined operating conditions' is the humidity range, which is typically for electronics listed as 5%-95% _NON_CONDENSING_
So as much as it sucks, guess what, the sensor is accurately recording that the phone's been outside of operational specs.
As anyone who wears glasses could probably tell you, if you go outside for a while, then come back inside (mimic the conditions of the 'experiment'), the glasses are highly likely to fog up with condensation. Is this not a liquid?
Sounds to me like the sensors are working just fine.
No they aren't working properly.
The Apple warranty http://apple.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=10/02/20/0118230 on page 2 eliminates warranty claims if the iphone has suffered liquid spills or submersion.
Yet the sensors trip via simple humidity changes, not unlike those the phone would experience in daily use in northern climates.
The sensors are essentially exposed to the outside of the phone, one in the ear-phone jack, and another in the 30 pin connector.
Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
You can get condensation without exceeding the relative humidity limit (incidentally what other computer has a humidity limit?). Just put a very cold iPod in a warm pants pocket. As long as the iPod is colder than the dew point, then you get condensation.
Non-condensing. It's right here: http://www.apple.com/iphone/specs.html
Environmental requirements
* Operating temperature: 32 to 95 F (0 to 35 C)
* Nonoperating temperature: -4 to 113 F (-20 to 45 C)
* Relative humidity: 5% to 95% noncondensing
* Maximum operating altitude: 10,000 feet (3000 m)
You have to obey them all, all the time. The sensor is simply just another component that might fail if you exceed these parameters. And it sounds like pretty convincing proof that you were in condensation conditions if the sensor fails by turning red.
John
The environment the phone was in was noncondensing. The environment IN the phone was condensing but how is the consumer to control that?
Consumer devices need to be built to withstand the normal environments they will be used in. Surprise, people sometimes come into a warm building from the cold outside.
If Apple gave half a crap about their users, they'd spring for the penny it would cost to shoot the insides with a bit of waterproofing spray rather than warranty void excuses before welding the back on.
The question is whether the LCI's can be triggered by exposure to condensation, moisture, etc., which won't actually harm the device. Clearly those LCI's are more sensitive than the device they're attached to to water damage. If the manufacturer refuses to honor a warranty because of a LCI positive reading, but the damage to the device wasn't in fact caused by water, then you ought to be able to sue them for breach of contract.
I had a cell phone battery fail (because of a defect), but the manufacturer wouldn't replace it because the LCI was tripped on the phone. The failure mode wasn't one that would have been caused by water damage.
So, Apple's LCI can trip unexpectedly...
A few years back, I dropped my Motorola RAZR V3 into a hot tub. It was submerged about 3-5 seconds before I got it back out.
The phone was dead, as expected - but the LCI did not "go off."
For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
It doesn't break. The article isn't about breaking, it's about the environmental change triggering the sensors. The ramifications are that Apple may/will refuse warranty service if they have been triggered, even if the failure was not a consequence of the humidity/condensation.
So you take your phone out on a cold day, bring it back in, then three months later it dies of natural causes. Apple refuses to fix it because some condensation occurred three months prior.
Although it's rare for a device to die just from some slight condensation, it's technically outside the specification. The way the warranty is worded, though, it would appear that they can only refuse to service devices for actual damage caused by the out-of-spec environment, not just because the device ever was in that environment. However, the burden of proving that the condensation didn't cause the issue is probably on you.
>> While it's true that some portion of your customers are going to lie when they say there has been no water intrusion, including, at extra cost a device aimed at proving that your customer is lying on every device is unfair. Let alone close to the external extremedies of the device.
Well said. Good contribution to the thread.
>> Here's a prediction: First they will deny the problem, and try to cast doubt on the testing methodolgy, then they will acknowledge the problem but claim that it only occurs in a very limited set of circumstances and offer restitution but only for those who complain loudest.
Decent editorial insight. The kind of thing that sparks great conversation.
>> Then they'll make a minor change that doesn't actually fix the problem and claim it is fixed (oh and raise prices to cover this change). They'll stall at every step. This seems to be right out of the Apple customer service manual, and they're not the only ones (but they are some of the worst). No different to scratchable iPod minis, or cracked laptop cases.
Still decent, but you're starting to get worked up!
>> Fucking horseshit.
Yep. You're working yourself up, son!
>> But it's Apple, it just works, right? Come on fanbois, mod me into oblivion. I don't give a shit.
And then you just slide down hill. If you were to be modded down, I don't think it'd have been because of your opinions / insights above. It's the fact that you seem to be asking for it right here. Maybe you're proud of your dissent and want to think the comments are controversial? Sorry, no. They grabbed my attention and got me thinking. But now I've forgotten everything you've said because of your silly little outburst.
> This just means they need more separation between the electrodes of their submersion sensor. Which is a problem in a small device.
The sensor is a chemical one. It's a patch of off-white printing that turns red when wetted.
> To sense water reliably, while ignoring condensation
Why? Condensation IS water. Water affects electronicsin the real world. Water is generally bad for electronics in the real world. Very very tiny electronics (like you referred to indirectly above) are affected even more. The touchscreen insides, the speakers, any electrical contacts, the miniscule contacts in the dock connector, all of it can be affected by water.
I believe the sensor is 3M Material 5559, which is a kind of humidity indicator. Wiki says, that these are usually made from Cobalt(II) chloride, which in pure form turns from blue to red powder by absorbing water.
Either that or the phone is pregnant.
http://michaelsmith.id.au
The sensor trips, even if the phone is not being operated (e.g. it's powered off) when these conditions are encountered.
I went into an Apple store and got my original iPhone replaced 10 months after buying it because I dropped it two stories onto concrete. It still worked, but it wouldn't take a charge and the main button was constantly pressed. I admitted to the damage vector (it was a bit hard not too -- major scratches and dings on the aluminum). They tested my phone, verified that it wouldn't take a charge, wiped my current phone, swapped the SIM into a new phone, activated it, and sent me on my way.
Those eeeevil bastards.
So, does Apple just automatically void Canadian warranties or do they actually expect no one here to use an iPhone outside from October through March?
So... where exactly do you get any place where you NEVER have noncondensing humidity? I mean hell, I live in Colorado and it's dry as a bone here most of the time, and my glasses still fog up. Putting a clause in a warranty that essentially says "You're not covered if you actually use this device as advertised and intended" is immoral, and I believe illegal in many places.
My blog. Good stuff (when I remember to update it). Read it.
Very true. For instance, by applying methods first outlined in the paper "Equidistant Letter Sequences in the Book of Genesis" (Statistical Science 9: 429-438) to Orwell's Animal Farm, I discovered the following statement appears no less than 16 times!
"Android good, iPhone Bad!"
What part of "a well regulated militia" do you not understand?
As a technician at a rival company to ATT in the US, I can tell you that the LDI or LCI is usually just that, an indicator. We see one of those tripped and then dig deeper into the device to see if there is further evidence that the device has been exposed to abnormal conditions, like a toilet. Some of the non-full service stores may not look so deep, but all of ours will take a device completely out of it's housing before making the determination. We're really not out to screw the customer, unless he's a douche.