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iPhone's Liquid Sensors Can Be Triggered By Wintertime Use
An anonymous reader writes "The Polish website Moje Jabluszko ran an experiment that proves the poor reliability of the liquid contact indicators (original, in Polish) installed by Apple in the iPhone. They performed three different tests to challenge the LCIs, which they recorded as a movie. They decided to mimic regular usage of the iPhone — meaning, you go outside where it could be cold or warm, then move inside in a building where temperature might be dramatically different, but still within covered conditions. So, they placed the iPhone in its box for one hour outside at -11 C, then moved it inside at room temperature for 24 hours. They repeated the experiment 3 times, and after the third cycle they could show that the LCI located in the audio jack plug started turning red! This is a clear proof that LCIs are not reliable and could turn red while the iPhone has been used under the defined environmental requirements defined by Apple. Here, only the condensing water could have been in contact with the sensor. In other words, even moving in and out during regular winter time will make you iPhone LCI turn red!" (In the tech specs for the iPhone, Apple rates the non-operating temperature range as -20 to 45 C.)
We do a lot of service on macbooks at work, and there's been times when we've taking a unit in for service that "won't turn on" and the user "has no idea why", only to find out they're drippy inside, and none of the liquid sensors are tripped.
LCI are just a way for companies to worm out of actually delivering on warranties.
The operating temperatures of 0 to 35C are completely held within the non-operating range of -4 to 45C. Sounds like a trick way of saying the phone isn't actually meant to work.
Taking something made of metal indoors and outdoors with a big temperature gradient is just *begging* for humidity to condense on it.
As anyone who wears glasses could probably tell you, if you go outside for a while, then come back inside (mimic the conditions of the 'experiment'), the glasses are highly likely to fog up with condensation. Is this not a liquid?
Sounds to me like the sensors are working just fine.
I've built up so much character I have an alter-ego
Move to California.
Wow - why do they even sell them here in Canada, then? Am I not supposed to take it outside below -20C? That's almost every night for half the winter! In fact, though, I've had my iPod Touch (1st Gen) for about 3 years, and I take and *use* it outdoors in -30 to -20 temperatures all the time - no problem. It's actually survived a dunking in the bathtub, too.
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I wonder how much condensation has to do with it.
Its freezing here in chicago and walking from the bus to the lincoln park conservatory, my camera gets cold enough that it instantly condenses when i get inside the conservatory.
When changing temperatures that drastically, I cant help but wonder the non liquid stress those indicators get
Im a troll because I disagree with you.
While it's true that some portion of your customers are going to lie when they say there has been no water intrusion, including, at extra cost a device aimed at proving that your customer is lying on every device is unfair. Let alone close to the external extremedies of the device.
Here's a prediction: First they will deny the problem, and try to cast doubt on the testing methodolgy, then they will acknowledge the problem but claim that it only occurs in a very limited set of circumstances and offer restitution but only for those who complain loudest. Then they'll make a minor change that doesn't actually fix the problem and claim it is fixed (oh and raise prices to cover this change). They'll stall at every step. This seems to be right out of the Apple customer service manual, and they're not the only ones (but they are some of the worst). No different to scratchable iPod minis, or cracked laptop cases. Fucking horseshit.
But it's Apple, it just works, right? Come on fanbois, mod me into oblivion. I don't give a shit.
These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
You gotta use HTML kinda tags, not BBCode kinda tags. Also, the preview button lets you, you know, preview it.
When you're afraid to download music illegally in your own home, then the terrorists have won!
You can get condensation without exceeding the relative humidity limit (incidentally what other computer has a humidity limit?). Just put a very cold iPod in a warm pants pocket. As long as the iPod is colder than the dew point, then you get condensation.
I know that the sensors turn red or a different color when they get wet, is this because they litmus paper? I have thought that they could change colors because of the pH of water. Does anybody know exactly what causes the color change. What the sensor is made of.
Doctors do Massage in Longview WA now, who knew?
Apple's specs DO allow those temperatures ranges. However, they clearly state that the humidity must be non-condensing. Since the phone is being abruptly moved from extremely cold to warm locations, and the resultant condensing humidity is the cause, it seems pretty obvious that the damage is occurring from mis-use, not from use in spec-approved conditions.
So where's the story? Water is water. It doesn't matter if it's condensation or spilled coffee, the result is damage to the electronics that is no fault of Apple's. They can't protect their devices against every retard who doesn't have enough common sense to not expose their iPhones to environmental extremes.
Also, the tech specs only say that the iPhone will WORK at -20 C, it makes no mention of suddenly exposing it to warm, moist air.
The environment the phone was in was noncondensing. The environment IN the phone was condensing but how is the consumer to control that?
Consumer devices need to be built to withstand the normal environments they will be used in. Surprise, people sometimes come into a warm building from the cold outside.
If Apple gave half a crap about their users, they'd spring for the penny it would cost to shoot the insides with a bit of waterproofing spray rather than warranty void excuses before welding the back on.
The question is whether the LCI's can be triggered by exposure to condensation, moisture, etc., which won't actually harm the device. Clearly those LCI's are more sensitive than the device they're attached to to water damage. If the manufacturer refuses to honor a warranty because of a LCI positive reading, but the damage to the device wasn't in fact caused by water, then you ought to be able to sue them for breach of contract.
I had a cell phone battery fail (because of a defect), but the manufacturer wouldn't replace it because the LCI was tripped on the phone. The failure mode wasn't one that would have been caused by water damage.
Is this unique to the iphone or will some/most/all cell phones have their LCI tripped if treated in this way?
So, Apple's LCI can trip unexpectedly...
A few years back, I dropped my Motorola RAZR V3 into a hot tub. It was submerged about 3-5 seconds before I got it back out.
The phone was dead, as expected - but the LCI did not "go off."
For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
The purpose of the sensor is not to detect water. The purpose of the sensor is to give Apple and the insurance company a technical strawman to point to as to why you're not gonna get the warranty replacement you've morally and legally got coming.
"We're not honoring the warranty because the machine says you've been bad," sounds sbetter than "We don't wanna honor your warranty 'cause that would cost us money to live up to our obligations."
It's the same function polygraphs, e-meters and other "lie detectors" serve. They're technically nonsense, but they give the organization an excuse you can't refute since it's nonsense in the first place.
He put his boots up on the table and made a face. "The sig," he smirked. "You can waste your life in search of the sig."
This just means they need more separation between the electrodes of their submersion sensor. Which is a problem in a small device.
To sense water reliably, while ignoring condensation, you need contacts some distance apart and some distance from a surface. The distances needs to be bigger than a water droplet. The size of water droplets is limited by surface tension. About 0.3 inch is probably big enough. In a tiny device, getting an air space that big is tough.
In other words, even moving in and out during regular winter time will make you iPhone LCI turn red!
Yes, Apple is doing something that lots of companies do! But you'll never hear reports about those other companies doing it, because they aren't Apple!!
... and then they built the supercollider.
1)Apple sells this phone in northerly climates (Canada for one)
2)Apple specs that it can be (when turned off) in environments down to -20 Celsius
3)I don't think anyone will argue with me that the nominal purpose of a cell phone, is as a communication device that a person CAN CARRY AROUND WITH THEM.
Combining these 3 facts, I think a reasonable person would conclude that they can take the phone in and out of the house with them when it is warmer than -20 C outside.
Thus, It seems reasonable that the warranty should still apply when this "reasonable person" has taken the phone in and out of the house at, oh, say -15 C
However, this test shows that doing so can trigger the humidity sensor, thereby voiding the warranty. Even though the person has not done anything unreasonable.
The think that I think some of you (who live in warmer climates?) are missing is this: the environment changes used in this test simulate normal daily use for those of us who live in colder climates.
Also, I doubt this issue is limited to iPhones: I had at least one motorola phone's warranty voided by the water sensor, even though I was unaware of having ever gotten the phone wet. This article could finally explain that issue as well...
It clearly stated that the non-operating temperature range is -20 to 45 C, so you would expect that if the iphone is subjected to this temperature range, is *will* become 'non-operating'.
Why is it that most of the people that I encounter seem to have been shat from the Sphincter of Mediocrity?
It seems like you could put it in an airtight plastic bag when going from cold to warm. When the bag is dry, it's safe to remove.
Of course, there's the problem of air in the bag. You need to make sure the bag is in close contact with the device or else carry dessicant around with you. Of course, this is an Apple device. Somebody ought to make a stylish little box that encloses it perfectly.
There are already shrink-on plastic shields to protect the screens and various other enhancements that surround your iPhone to protect it; so you need to make sure the condensation protector doesn't conflict with that.
I haven't looked up close at an iPhone (I don't have one myself) but I assume the device can't be airtight for some reason (speaker? cracks around a micro USB socket?). If it could be made air-tight, at least temporarily, then the problem is also solved.
Now get to work Apple-cozy guys.
For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
The liquid sensor is right to go off, as it should since many electronic gadgets/laptops were destroyed this way.
Really what is the problem?
Your typical keyboard is quite waterproof. I've spilled coffee on mine several times. Into the dishwasher it goes. I let it dry for about a week and then it's just fine. (Yes I have a backup keyboard). I have done this several times now and the keyboard still works fine.
I hate to say it, because it's also a scam, but this won't matter if you buy an ADP plan that includes spills/immersion (SquareTrade sells them for all kinds of phones).
It doesn't matter who you buy it from though, if they know all you have to do to force them to fix it is to pay a $50 deductible, they are less likely to claim mishandling.
It's not fair, but they know if you don't have that insurance, you have no choice but to buy a new phone.
If Apple gave half a crap about their users, they'd spring for the penny it would cost to shoot the insides with a bit of waterproofing spray rather than warranty void excuses before welding the back on.
The problem isn't that the phone will break from these it is the fact that it will trip the sensors. The problem is, these indicator things are terrible indicators of a problem. While I can see the point in reducing claims from someone who went swimming with their iPhone, someone who got their iPhone slightly damp months ago and comes in with a different problem still can't use their warranty.
Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
My dad had a similar experience with a Sony water resistant camera however the result were quite opposite. It was about 80-90 degrees out and he dunked the camera in 50 degree water hoping to get a close up of some trout. That ended up condensing the air inside the lens fogging it up on the inside. When he contacted Sony about it they were very interested in getting the camera to investigate the problem and fix it on future models as well as replacing it at no cost.
Consumer devices need to be built to withstand the normal environments they will be used in. Surprise, people sometimes come into a warm building from the cold outside.
Quite simply; put the phone in a warmer spot like a pants pocket for a few minutes before going inside. Keep the phone in a purse for a few minutes so it can warm up gradually.
This is how the indicators work. Get them slightly damp by condensation enough time and they may indicate water. That is enough moisture to damage electronics. The Indicators are not failing; they are working as designed.
Are there any cases of people actually being refused service because one of these sensors has been tripped?
I agree that it shouldn't be a problem at all. I'm just saying that even if Apple is concerned there are perfectly good technical solution and no need to screw people over.
Most electronic devices can survive immersion and work again once dried out.
The humidity rating as given for the iPhone IS the range of the noncondensing humidity. As in, the percentage of moisture in the air that is non-condensed.
noncondensing means the "condensing portion" is excluded.
The fact that some condensation is occuring does not mean you are outside the operational humidity specification.
If they didn't say noncondensing, then it would mean the humidity exposure would have to be considered 100% when condensation is occuring.
By saying "condensation", in fact, the humidity can be 95% or less and considered within specification, even as condensation is occuring.
Don't buy an iPhone, problem solved.
It is perhaps enough water to damage crappy electronics. Decent electronics will be fine.
The way fragile cellphones are going, I'm just waiting for the steel carrying cases with built-in velvet pillows, climate control system and active damping. It'll need to have wheels and a significant suspension system, of course.
Simply going inside on a cold day should NEVER even be a consideration for voiding the warranty on a consumer device.
Going outside on a hot humid day shouldn't be a big deal either, but would probably have the same effect on the iPhone.
I agree that the sensors are working as designed. They're supposed to provide an excuse to get out of providing warranty service and they do exactly that!
Sure... the HCI in the audio jack could change color. That's why there is supposedly a SECOND HCI on the inside of the unit. They'll open it up to examine the second one as well... 2 spots.. relatively far apart... and the 2nd one would probably be less subject to condensation.
-- You can't idiot-proof anything, because they're always coming out with better idiots.
so, i haven't noticed a comment stating that every cell phone you've ever owned probably had the same sensor inside. The triggering of that sensor voided it's warranty as well.
You cannot get condensation without violating the clause that says "NONCONDENSING" next to the humidity range of 5%-95%. It doesn't matter if you're inside the 5 - 95 range, the water condensed and therefore is outside of their specifications. I don't agree with their doing this, but it's pretty damned clear that they'd be enforcing exactly the line GP referred to.
This is actually already fairly well "documented," that LCIs aren't what one would call reliable. This happens a lot with other types of phones' LCIs - for example, I was able to change my liquid detection strip in my Nokia, albeit just a corner of the square, after having my phone sit on the bathroom shelf while I showered. Sure, a steam-filled room might not be the BEST place for a phone, but it shouldn't void my warranty either. And no surprise that Apple wouldn't use anything beyond the same detection methods, especially when they get to cry foul and turn a blind eye to your issues because a tiny piece of paper turned red. They're going to get you any way they can, and this is one of those "that's how they get you" ways.
How is relating a temperature to an observable, known temperature (Like the freezing point of water, for instance) in any way useless?
I happen to sweat a decent amount. In the summer, if I keep my phone in my pocket, it will trip the sensor. What am I supposed to do to prevent that from happening?
If I can not smoke in heaven, then I shall not go. -- Mark Twain
Ok, I understand the somewhat conspiracy-theory concern over the fact that the sensors are too sensitive and give false positives. And frankly, I agree with you. But how is Apple actually using the sensor? Are there reported cases of Apple refusing warranty over false positives from the sensor? Or do they simply use it as an indicator when debugging and looking for possible problems? If they use it as the final answer, then that is wrong, but if they use it as only one piece of a larger puzzle, that seems completely reasonable.
I can live with that. Someone wake me up when the redundant sentence is not redundant.
Well.. maybe. Or Maybe not. But Definitely not sort of.
Very true. For instance, by applying methods first outlined in the paper "Equidistant Letter Sequences in the Book of Genesis" (Statistical Science 9: 429-438) to Orwell's Animal Farm, I discovered the following statement appears no less than 16 times!
"Android good, iPhone Bad!"
What part of "a well regulated militia" do you not understand?
I live in a coastal humid and mediocre temperature weather area... I have *never* gotten my phone right into water... not even in the rain; I don't use them in the rain.
And yet every single battery-area 'got it wet indicator' that turns red when you get it wet.... yep.. every single one would be triggered and appear like I got it wet or something. I'm not even talking about putting em in sweaty or wet clothes or something, either... I'm pretty careful and this happens usually within the first couple months of owning a phone.
If you keep the thing in your pocket there shouldn't be nearly that much of a problem, you would have to regularly be talking on the thing for an hour at a time in cold weather to reproduce this.
As a technician at a rival company to ATT in the US, I can tell you that the LDI or LCI is usually just that, an indicator. We see one of those tripped and then dig deeper into the device to see if there is further evidence that the device has been exposed to abnormal conditions, like a toilet. Some of the non-full service stores may not look so deep, but all of ours will take a device completely out of it's housing before making the determination. We're really not out to screw the customer, unless he's a douche.
Are you saying the iPhone won't work if you're inside a whale? Can clergymen's daughters get a discount?
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
as the operators were starting up, Orange came along as a new entrant. The monthly charge was a little bit more expensive, but they did have beautifully simple contracts (I paid £30 a month, I got x many minutes and if I didn't go over that, my bill was £30). That £30 also included a quite wonderful warranty. If ANYTHING happened to your phone, it broke, it got lost, you'd gone swimming with it in your pocket etc - you just called them up (and they answered pretty much immediately) and with no quibble, the next day there'd be a courier at the door with a replacement phone to swap out (or give if the phone had gone AWOL).
It all went wrong about 5 years back (roughly) when all manner of weird policies started appearing - in my case my p800 broke, which seemingly required their smart phone dept to authorize the return, except neither I or the rep I was calling could actually find out why it took a month for them to accept the phone in my hand was dead etc - so I left them after 5 or 6 happy years.
I'd love to know why they changed. Might have been their takeover, might have been the policy was costing them too much money, might have been they wanted to just lower their up-front prices to appear competitive. There's just something rather lovely about a contract where you know "Every month I will be paying £x, and as long as I pay £x a month I will never be more than 24 hours without a phone, whatever happens."
Welcome to the global warming era, where we leave out any inconvenient truth that is, well, inconvenient to the point we want to make.
Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
Would it be feasible to replace a defective humidity detector with an aftermarket component that performs the function more accurately and with fewer false positives?
I am not a lawyer, but according to Magnuson-Moss, this seems like it should be within your rights.
There are no karma whores, only moderation johns
"Do not taunt Happy Fun LCI". ;)
Yes, and the point the GP was making is that noncondensing conditions are downright impossible to maintain in daily use. Which means that the wording of the specification is unreasonable.
You cannot get condensation without violating the clause that says "NONCONDENSING" next to the humidity range of 5%-95%.
Is that what that means? Can they prove that's what they meant in court? I doubt it. If they really mean that the phone shouldn't ever get condensation on itself, then they should say that. Because there is a reasonable interpretation of this that doesn't include condensation from normal usage. Namely, stuff like leaving your iPod outside on a foggy night or on top of a humidifier.
For users, -11C is not a documented working temperature.
A negative degree is a temperature where water freezes. This means, at negative temperatures you have to expect
It's the single most useful distinction there is. Going outside an -2C and going out at +2C is very different. Going out at +8C and going out at +12C is not too different.
The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
Untrue. My phone's sensor was visibly a different color within two months of my buying a brand new phone. I think it's caused less by usage outdoors and more by condensation that happens bringing it indoors after I've been outside (in colder weather) for a while. I've had no problems with my phone so far, but it sucks to know that the company won't honor the warranty (which is actually going to be up before the summer anyways) if something does happen to go wrong with it before the warranty is up (I know this because I asked them about it when I first noticed the sensor was a different color, hoping to get some peace of mind about it and instead all I got was "you're on your own").
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
incidentally what other computer has a humidity limit?
Just about any? Want examples? http://support.dell.com/support/edocs/systems/ins700m/en/OM/G74722LRs.pdf Relative humidity (maximum): Operating 10% to 90% (noncondensing) Storage 5% to 95% (noncondensing). http://docs.hp.com/en/A5191-96018/apbs06.html Operating Humidity 15 to 80% Relative humidity (Non-condensing) at 35oC (95oF) 40 to 60% Relative humidity (Non-condensing) 30% Per hour Relative humidity (Non-condensing) 90% Relative humidity (Non-condensing) at 65oC (149oF)
Note that they keep repeating Non-condensing so everybody gets it.
Lars T.
To the guy who modded me down from perfect to terrible Karma - Apple haters still suck
First off: Duh! I get how LCI's work. I'm asking if other phones will suffer the same effect or are they somehow better sealed or insulated against environmental extremes. And if not then why is this specifically leveled against Apple and not the cell phone industry as a whole?
O' dense AC...
A particular danger to electronic items, regardless of the stated operating humidity range, is condensation. When an electronic item is moved from a cold place (eg garage, car, shed, an air conditioned space in the tropics) to a warm humid place (house, outside tropics), condensation may coat circuit boards and other insulators, leading to short circuit inside the equipment. Such short circuits may cause substantial permanent damage if the equipment is powered on before the condensation has evaporated. A similar condensation effect can often be observed when a person wearing glasses comes in from the cold. It is advisable to allow electronic equipment to acclimatise for several hours, after being brought in from the cold, before powering on. The inverse is also true.
Lars T.
To the guy who modded me down from perfect to terrible Karma - Apple haters still suck
You're wrong.
Condensation requires that the relative humidity get above 100%, at the source of the condensation. A very cold iPod in a warm pants pocket will reach 100% humidity on/in the iPod. The pocket will not reach that. The air it was in may not reach that. But for condensation to occur, by definition 100% relative (not specific) humidity was reached at the source of that condensation.
I think this is where Apple will read off the operating manual: 5%-95% relative humidity, NON CONDENSING. If the sensor turned red, then you set up conditions inside your iPod/iPhone where there was condensation. You exceeded the range of humidity for operating the device.
Is it a load of bullshit? Sure. But you bought it, signed on the dotted line, and agreed to operate it under very specific conditions.
Velociraptor = Distiraptor / Timeraptor
Condensation requires that the relative humidity get above 100%, at the source of the condensation.
That's an interesting opinion. I don't see that in the contract and I imagine a court wouldn't either.
Yet another generic phone story slapped as "iPhone" to improve SEO hits. The little stickers with powdered red dye is them have been in every phone I've ever seen for almost 10 years now.
from 09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
to 45 2F 6E 40 3C DF 10 71 4E 41 DF AA 25 7D 31 3F
Has anyone had a sensor turn red from normal use and then had their phone subsequently break and then been refused warranty service?
*chirp* *chirp* *chirp*