Slashdot Mirror
Perth Game Company CEO Takes IP By Night
snicho99 writes "A US owned gaming company has fled Australia, leaving unpaid employees and a massive tax bill. Apparently many staff have been working unpaid for months to allow their game to ship and hopefully the company to recover. Interzone's Perth (Western Australia) office was created with the assistance of a state government grant. Last week Interzone's (American) CEO
entered the building at night and removed all the servers and IP so that Interzone could continue production at a new company they have opened in Ireland. The staff caught him on camera. More background here."
There's a new poster child available for the "ConnivingBastard PrickManager" definition.
boycott slashdot February 10th - 17th check out: altSlashdot.org
A CEO may pay what His he wishes to His employees and take what He wants.
By His accumulation wealth, a CEO has demonstrated His worldly talent and divine favor. Far be it for us to criticize His actions: are we yet men, while He has a golden MBA? While we merely use our power of Speech, does the CEO not expand the language with outflowing of His prodigious mind? Does that not giveth unto him wisdom we know not, and authority we dare not assert?
We should open our hearts to the CEO. We shall work for Him all our waking hours and offer unto him our wives and daughters for His amusement: for we should be honored to have a radiant Being in our lives as the prime-most consideration.
Should we Fail, we deserve whatever punishment the CEO shall mete out for He, as he so frequently reminds us, is infallible. If a CEO's Company should fail, it is our fault for being indolent, and we shall bear that around our necks. All the remaining resources of a failed Company will go to its CEO as compensation for even attempting to deal with filty being like ourselves. Amen.
Remember that it's not so bad to leave a country to do business elsewhere. When I worked in Naples, I would not get almost any pay. Yes, I was a kid and I was supposed to work for my father, but I wanted something off from it. If it doesn't work like you want to, you go somewhere where it does.
It IS so bad when you use a bunch of legal dodgery to take ownership of the IP while evading the millions of dollars of debt that you owe to the staff. It IS bad when you break a whole bunch of laws to get that IP out of the country, so you can start another studio in another country without actually paying what you owe to any of your employees. And (personal conjecture here) it IS bad when you will most likely you will do exactly the same to the new studio.
Disclaimer: IAAFIZE. I am a former IZ employee.
Rampant carbon sequestration destroyed the Dinosaurs' tropical paradise. I'm here to help repair the damage.
There are times when internet hate campaigns get well out of hand, and end up causing huge amounts of trouble for people over trivial or non-existent issues.
This is not one of those times... Take it away, internet...
Interzone owns the Australia Tax Office (ATO) approximately $1m AUD and $500k in unpaid wages and superannuation. The owner changed the locks on the firm at 4am in the morning, locking all employees out from their work. Not even given a chance to collect their personal belongings. A new 'Interzone' called Big Collision is being setup in Dublin Ireland to complete development of their game Futebol in time for the World Cup, and without the debt they have accumulated in Australia. Originally Interzone was given a grant by the Western Australian goverment of $500k, so this has blown up very big on the news there, causing quite some political issues and questions of the chief Treasurer. They did not even lay off the staff, as that would of caused paper work, and the paying out of their due wages and redundancy money. They were simple locked out from their building.
The firm that provides the middleware (BigWorld) based in Sydney, provided a server engineer (contracted by Mike to clear out the IP assets from the server.)
The Interzone employees have been fantastic, in collecting evidence, and staying together to fight for what they are due.
This is not the first time this has occured in Australia, similar shit has happened in the last year with firms Transmission, and Fuzzyeyes. Video games, one of the last places for cow-boy businessmen.
For people who would like to read more on this, check these links:
http://www.tsumea.com/australasia/australia/news/120210/interzone-games-perth-closes-staff-locked-out
http://www.kotaku.com.au/2010/02/wa-dev-interzone-games-close-to-liquidation/
http://www.kotaku.com.au/2010/02/interzone-ceo-marty-brickey-responds/
And this video where the employees confront one of the directors http://vimeo.com/9574704
If this guy is a director and knowingly traded while insolvent / unable to pay the bills, he's looking at five years in prison. Once ASIC gets done, the ATO will start looking at tax issues. This guy is going to be a bureaucrat chew toy.
Australia has never been part of Asia, it part of the Australian continent
Er, no, RTFS - he removed the servers.
This is the one time that referring to "IP theft" actually makes sense. He stole it, removing the original rather than duplicating.
Do people who commit piracy do so by going to the record companies at night, sneaking in, and removing their CDs?
Anyhow, where does anyone accuse him of stealing? Or are you just making up a straw man?
Actually, the way I see it, the quote is completely right, even in this case.
The "IP" is irrelevant. The employees are owed for the time they worked, and nothing more. Even if you believe there is such a thing as "IP", the employees agreed it belongs to the company when they signed the contract, so it can't be "stolen" from them.
Having the CEO fire everybody and have another team continue development would have been perfectly legal. The only illegal thing is not paying the previous employees all they were owed.
I don't see what the problem is: If they worked unpaid by choice, then they're foolish, in my not so humble opinion, and here's why: Having been cheated before, I'd not trust even family or friends when it comes to my financial future, and certainly not an employer.
Work for free? Sorry, been there, done that, much in the same way as these people: I trusted the company's owner, believed him when he said that he'd reward me and the rest of us, if we were only patient and worked hard. It would all work out in the end, you see, and everyone would end up wealthy.
Yeah, right. The only person that ended up wealthy was him - he sold the company, and the people that had worked to build it up got nothing, and had no recourse, as we had nothing in writing.
As the saying goes: "Once burned, twice shy". I'm older now, and considerably more cynical, and I don't work for any employer for free, ever. The only thing that we have is our lives, and we cannot know how much time we have: Giving it away to an employer without recompense is foolish at best, because they never remember the sacrifices you made for them, and you can never get that time back.
Always keep that in mind when dealing with an employer: You're trading your life in exchange for money. Make sure that it's worth it to you, don't ever be surprised when someone tries to cheat you and don't let them do so.
In addition, he intends to sell copies of this CD.
> The problem is that his staff have been working unpaid in order for the company to recover.
But that's retarded. They had little reason to do that other than some profoundly misplaced loyalty - they're apparently employees not company partners? Of course I may not be getting the full story, but working for someone without being paid and without keeping the result of your work (i.e. open source, in fact the whole reason open source makes economic sense is because you keep the fruits of your labor and other people also having copies doesn't diminish that) is dumb.
Well, working for free does make sense if you expect to get the money later. Basically they've given the company a loan. It turned out the company owner was not credit-worthy, though.
The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
Last week Interzone's (American) CEO entered the building at night and removed all the servers and IP so that Interzone could continue production at a new company they have opened in Ireland. The staff caught him on camera.
As much as I think that Mike Turner is a total scumbag, the linked video doesn't actually show him being caught in the act of removing anything. It does show him to be consistently wearing those crappy white iPod/iPhone earbuds - but while that probably should be a crime, it isn't currently on the books.
... and then they built the supercollider.
But that's retarded. They had little reason to do that other than some profoundly misplaced loyalty
The only reason the loyalty was misplaced was because the CEO screwed them. Had he honored their commitment and worked as hard as possible to save the company and then paid them back dues + bonus/stock their loyalty would have been dead on. Unfortunately they worked for a douchebag. I'm the first person to have no loyalty for a large mega corp but small shops require it. We can't function without the employees giving a damn about the company and the company can't function without giving a damn about their employees.
The Goal: A long simple life filled with many complex toys.
even if he gets away with this, his new employees will probably think twice before working on unpaid wages for so long. Also, a publisher should certainly be wary of someone with such dubious business practices.
"I love my job, but I hate talking to people like you" (Freddie Mercury)
Wait: are we talking about a game company, or SCO?
Oh, yes. Both.
Given that the asshole fled to Ireland and started a "new" firm, the interesting question is the extradition agreement between Ireland and Australia. Unfortunately, the link to the Australia-Ireland agreement on this page links to the Australia-Indonesia page ...
The truth may be out there, but lies are inside your head
If it were legal, he wouldn't have been doing it in the middle of the night. The company could have just locked the employees out and done whatever they wanted in broad daylight. Plenty of companies have been known to do that sort of thing when shutting down a location.
I mean, this is a CEO we're talking about. Those guys normally work 9-5, officially, on paper, and in practice this turns into more like 10-4, except on days when they're out of the office for "meetings" with other CEOs on the golf course. Working in the middle of the night is NOT part of the general modus operandi.
So yeah, if he was slipping in during the wee hours, there's a reason.
Cut that out, or I will ship you to Norilsk in a box.
Game companies often hire people for whom that is their first job. They have not yet learned that companies are psychopathic abusers, and that your only loyalty is to yourself and your colleagues. Any kindness you offer to the company as such - working for no pay for instance - will never be returned by them.
He has committed tax fraud, the taxman is first in the line of creditors and has an extradition treaty with the Irish taxman. He will wake up one day in the very near future to find his bank accounts frozen.
The employees are the last in line when it comes to the creditors of a defunct company, once the taxman and banks have split up what's left the employees will get fuck all. The best the employees can hope for is seeing the prick behind bars which IMHO is a very likely outcome.
And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
I believe the saying you're looking for is:
Fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again.
- Former President Bush
When you're afraid to download music illegally in your own home, then the terrorists have won!
Actually....
First is the employees super funds, then taxes, then wages, then everyone else they owe money to.
The employees are covered for loss of wages by the GEERS scheme, which they can submit and get their: Lost wages; Lost holiday pay; Redundancy payout (according to industry standards or their contract, and if contract its subject to evaluation).
According to Australian law anyway :)
...
> Australia is part of Asia.
Depending on which list of continents you go by, there are a lot of variations. The geographers, geologists, and sociologists can't seem to agree on a single definition, so it can be a bit confusing. How many continents are there, anyway? Five? Six? Seven? More?
For instance, there are variously considered to be one, two, or three continents in the western hemisphere. Two is the most common figure, but it's not universal.
Europe may or may not be part of the same continent as Asia. I even saw one list that makes Africa part of the same continent as Eurasia, since they're connected.
Some lists omit Antarctica entirely, since it has no permanent inhabitants.
But for all that, I have never seen a list that made Australia part of Asia. Usually it's a continent all by itself. Frequently it's part of a "continent" called "Oceania", which also includes most of the islands in the Pacific (but not the ones that are very close to another continent, such as Taiwan or Vancouver Island). Sometimes only a few islands are included as part of Australia -- Tasmania, New Guinea, etc. I've even seen definitions that include New Zealand as part of Australia but NOT New Guinea (which was listed as part of Asia).
I have even seen occasional claims that Australia is an island, not part of any continent at all. (These claims generally come from laypersons and usually involve comparison to Greenland; typically the person making the assertion has been looking at Mercator-projection maps.)
But this is the first time I have EVER seen anyone list Australia as part of Asia. That's totally unprecedented.
Cut that out, or I will ship you to Norilsk in a box.
Hard luck there for all the people who just got scammed by a run of the mill business asshole. My theory is that they are all lying assholes, each and every one of them, and if you keep that in mind you'll find your dealings with them go much better. Just remind yourself as they speak that every word is carefully selected to make them richer.
Big tip - the day you find your pay hasn't gone into your account is the day you hit jobsearch.com or call your agent and let them know you're looking for paid work.
The business's responsibility is to ensure there is enough cash set aside against bad luck/planning/weather and enough cash flow coming through to ensure projects get completed. It's *their* responsibility, not yours...you write code, or run tests, answer the phones. If they've f*ed up enough to not have the money to even pay the people who write the product, then you have to wonder how else they are screwing up.
All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain.
This is not the first time this has occurred in Australia, similar shit has happened in the last year with firms Transmission, and Fuzzyeyes. Video games, one of the last places for cow-boy businessmen.
Actually, I belief this is a misrepresentation... I would argue that these are not "Cow-Boy Businessmen", but "Cow-Dung Businessmen". These fecal administrators, give scum of the earth a bad name. If there was any justice, they'd be plowed into a field so as to provide their only possible positive contribution to society as fertilizer.
Has anyone else noticed the picture of Mike Turner with the Sphinx in the background halfway down the third page linked to in TFS? The caption below it is surely a little redundant...
Which do you choose? The second option is a waste of time. The first is a guaranteed loss. The third is a gamble, where you potentially have a bigger loss, but potentially have a gain. I know people working for small businesses who have received nice bonuses for choosing option 3, and others who have had the company fold owing them back pay. If you don't have another job lined up to start immediately, it's often a good idea to try to keep the company afloat while you look for other employment as a backup.
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
"We may have a ridiculous amount of asian immigrants that still speak chinese/japanese after they get here, but that still does not make us a part of asia."
We actually have very few Japanese immigrants but they do love spending their holidays and money here, particularly in Queensland where the local economy is heavily dependent on tourisim.
The Japanese are golf mad and a golf trip to Oz to play on a real golf course is cheaper than a golf club membership in Tokyo to play on a multi story driving range. On the whole they are very well mannered guests in our country and tend to stick to organised tour groups because of the language barrier.
Also every chineese immigrant I have ever met speaks english, it's a requirement to get into the country unless you come in as a refugee and we do not recognise people from China as refugees.
As you probably know there is a minority racist element in our population who idolise people such as Pauline Hanson. Hanson is ironically now emmigrating to the UK after basically being ridiculed and laughed out of politics by the rest of us. I think she is in for a shock when she finds out how many second and third generation "brown people" are wandering around the UK.
For the non-Aussie readers, members of Hansen's minority are generally refered to as "yobbos", which when translated into American means "rednecks".
And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
So how did it turn out at those other firms?
Starbucks, Harbuckle of Breath.
And a man's honor should know no geographic bounds, especially in this day and age. I would expect anyone considering business with this man (including anyone in Ireland, or elsewhere) to take heed and note that he is not trustworthy. I would also encourage such former employees to make the facts of the case known wide and far, as far as is possible without criminal libel or slander.
Come play Moral Decay!
I don't know the Australian systems you describe but your summary makes them sound a lot like Affirmative Action here in the US. This is a tough question. There is no question that AA is prejudice and, depending on implementation, racist. However, as it is there to correct a past wrong, the hard part is deciding when it is still or no longer needed. We are struggling with this question still in the US, as evidence by the recent University of Michigan case on admissions.
One major issue here is whether the "need" for AA is perceived to be "over" in some areas (such as the North) but the opposite in others (like the South)... I waffle a bit on this issue myself. I'd personally prefer no law or regulation mentioning race (thus invalidating AA) but that is based on the assumption that racism and inequality is no longer an issue... which is only true in some places.
Come play Moral Decay!
I stand corrected, apparently the scheme was brought in by the Howard government and I was using outdated personal anecdote. My brother-in-law lost ~$10K when the panel beaters he was working for in the 90's went tits up. Part of that $10K was super that had not been paid for almost a year. The bank came in and auctioned all the equipment in the shop, the employees saw none of the proceeds.
:)
Thanks for the education.
And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
Er I'm assuming this is a troll, but just in case anyone else doesn't realise, Australia has a reasonable number of ethnically east Asian people. As in >10% of the population (and closer to >20% in some urban areas).
Australia isn't technically in Asia, but its geographic proximity definitely affects the makeup of the population. Far more Asians per capita here than in the US, for instance.
Thanks for the thoughtful, balanced comment ... note that the perceived racial bias in the North vs the South has a lot more more to do with history than with current reality. You might be a bit closer if you differentiated urban and rural, but even that's an over-simplification.
This could be mostly legal, the servers may have always been owned by the parent company and leased back to the Australian subsidiary. The IP very likely was also never owned by the Australian firm. If the subsidiary did hold assets I expect the parent company had security over them, so if they had loaned the subsidiary money then in the event of being wound up they take control of the assets. Lying to creditors/employees on the other hand, well there's a mess there but it's probably wrongful trading etc on the part of the subsidiary's directors while the parent's may or may not have known.
It will be up to the administrator to find out if there is anything to be done, and the employees, in their position as creditors, should be applying their pressure on him. The company may have knowingly traded whilst insolvent in which case the directors may be charged with wrongful trading, and potentially be personally liable for debts. The nature of the relationship with the parent company and related transactions may also offer some scope - it's not unheard of for courts to lift the veil and treat parent & subsidiary undertakings as one entity. Furthermore he may well be able to show the parent acted as a shadow director. There is room for some optimism here for two reasons, firstly a "million dollar tax bill" implies profits (though it may be tax on salaries that hasn't been paid over). Secondly the government grant should have all sorts of covenants, you have to be an utterly incompetent complete idiot to grant or loan money to any subsidiary and not enforce appropriate covenants and security over the parent company.
While I sympathise with the employees, there were lots of things they could have done, and given the amounts they should have taken some advice. Sure, in start-ups it's not uncommon for employees to give some leeway and "muck in". But this is a subsidiary! Why do this if there is a parent with money? Secondly, if you're a creditor, act like one. Take a look at the accounts, check for assets and file security over them. Negotiate for some equity - if they had just 20% between them minority protections kick in. An accountant probably would have given them this advice for free if they suggested that some audit fees might be coming their way later on.
I can tell you personally that the large company CEOs don't work "10-4" - more like 24x7.... the job is their life.
So much so that I know one that has a Plasma in his staff meeting room for when he's in on weekends to watch while working because he's ALWAYS at work.
Sounds to me like this "CEO" is just someone who's also a con-man.
Karnal
Yes, the seperate schemes are a hangover from affirmative action of the 70's and 80's. As I posted in my reply to walshv007 the extreme benefits that no white man could hope for amount to an extra $6.50 per week. ANY student coming from a defined remote area can also apply for rental assistance, people living in remote areas tend to be aboriginals.
Ideologically I'm also not in favour of legislation based on race but pragmatically the aboriginals have not benifited from the so called "lucky country". Until very recently most lived in what can only be described as thrird world conditions, lost between stone age traditions and the 20th century laws.
We also have race based legislation banning the sale of alcohol in many of the aboriginal settlements, their traditional social structures are 40kyrs old and have never had to deal with alcoholisim until the last hundred years or so. Aborigines are also permitted to hunt otherwise protected species on their reserves. IMHO these laws are a GoodThing(TM).
And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
Designing and or building something does not make you an engineer! Is the guy at Quiznos as sandwich engineer because be designs sandwiches? Are you an engineer because you design computer programs? See the similarity?
For the most part CS people have no idea what they're missing versus someone with a real engineering degree. I took classes in both Computer Science and Computer Engineering in college. The CS department was in the College of Sciences. The Computer Engineering department was in the College of Engineering. The two colleges (and their associate programs) could not have been more different. The CS program felt very much like Math or Physics. The CE program felt like EE or MechE. This is not a subtle thing...the differences permeate the students' education from day one!
"Liechtenstein is the world's largest producer of sausage casings, potassium storage units, and false teeth."
Did you know that IEEE has a produced an ISO standard covering the knowledge required for Software Engineer?
I'm sure that many people are mis-advertising themselves, but you also have a specific definition of what you consider an "Engineer" to be that is narrower than IEEE definitions (I'm referring to this comment: "it is not engineering").
this list actually covers what you'd need to know as a COMPUTER ENGINEER to pass the fundamentals of engineering exam
I was with you until here. My degree was in Computer Engineering, and we were never required to take fluid dynamics (Where is the Z transform in your list? In case you hadn't noticed; our controllers are all discrete since the 70's ;-). Understanding the theory behind the PID controller is something that I would look for). I'm hard pressed to see how fluid dynamics would matter outside of Mechanical Engineering? I agree with your general premise that programmers in the engineering world benifit from engineering knowledge. I work in a company that makes SCADA software, and we have a mix of people from engineering and computer-science backgrounds. Some observations.
Engineers can make lousy programmers. Believe it or not, there is lot of programming theory that is important and not taught in an engineering degree. Much of the worst, most unmaintainable code I have ever seen has been written by very good engineers, who simply have no grasp of programming concepts beyond the basic. On the flip side the engineers in our team are invaluble due to their understanding of how the end-user (who are also engineers), needs to use the product to get the job done. Finally, I'd like to say that our most productive coders are guys from pure programming backgrounds. This is not to say that some of the guys from engineering backgrounds are not productive, it just seems to me that there is a particular type of person that is attracted to programming alone and can produce astonishing amounts of quality code in a short period of time. Perhaps the type of person who is attracted to engineering just isn't the conducive to this? In our company, we need the mix (and I like having the mix), but if I were creating some kind of web startup, I wouldn't employ guys with an engineering background.
I sympathise with the employees. I went through a similar situation in 2007.
GEERS is your friend*, and the liquidator will help you with the information needed to complete your GEERS application. Unfortunately GEERS doesn't cover unpaid super and most companies in these circumstances just fail to pay super and accumulate fines for late super payments rather than the actual amount.
As the law currently stands it very simple for dodgy CEO's to thieve the IP and take operations overseas. The ATO and ASIC are either too slow, bogged down with redtape or just plain toothless.
The sad fact is CEO's/directors don't even need to move overseas. All you need to do is have a parent company overseas that the IP is assigned to. The local company then operates on the smell of an oily rag, runs up liabilities and even gets government RD grants/tax rebates. When creditors/employees come to collect, there's nothing, but a bit of office equipment and furniture. It's even possible to start a new company and then buy the salvaged office assets of the previous company and even trade from the very same office and the ATO and ASIC don't even batter an eye lid.
*As for GEERS and the liquidator, chase them ruthlessly. The department/program is biased to the liquidators findings. If there's incomplete, incorrect or absent employee entitlement records (as is often the case with poorly run companies), GEERS will not pay you a cent, if the liquidator can't provide support or evidence of he amounts. (I found out the hard way and lost 2 years AL)
All the best with your fight.
Area51 - We are watching...
I notice when a business owner makes off with half a mil in a assets (unpaid wages) it's tough titties but if one of the employees had done the same thing to him the frickin' justice dept extradites his ass and throws him in jail.
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
The management moved to Ireland? That's a bad place to go bankrupt, and a good place to sue creditors. Ireland still has bankruptcy law left over from the days when English landlords ran the country. Creditors can put a company or an individual into involuntary bankruptcy. There's nothing like "debtor in possession" bankruptcy (US "Chapter 11") in Ireland. Personal bankruptcy? The debtor may retain "such articles of clothing, household furniture, bedding, tools and equipment of his trade or profession or other necessities for himself, his wife, his children, and other dependent relatives living with him, as he may select, not exceeding in value EUR 3,175."
It gets worse. Bankruptcies put individuals on a public blacklist. Officers of companies that go bankrupt can't be officers of a company again. Individuals can't get credit of more than EUR 630.
The employees need to get a judgment in Australia against the CEO, which shouldn't be hard since he fled the country with unpaid employees. Then hire an aggressive collection agency in Dublin. ("100% success rate for many clients. No collection, no fee.") There are international collection agencies, such as Global Credit Solutions, with branches in 80 countries. They have offices in both Australia and Ireland.