Perth Game Company CEO Takes IP By Night

snicho99 writes "A US owned gaming company has fled Australia, leaving unpaid employees and a massive tax bill. Apparently many staff have been working unpaid for months to allow their game to ship and hopefully the company to recover. Interzone's Perth (Western Australia) office was created with the assistance of a state government grant. Last week Interzone's (American) CEO entered the building at night and removed all the servers and IP so that Interzone could continue production at a new company they have opened in Ireland. The staff caught him on camera. More background here."

Comments

Other countries are interesting

[PizzaAnalogyGuy]

Remember that it's not so bad to leave a country to do business elsewhere. When I worked in Naples, I would not get almost any pay. Yes, I was a kid and I was supposed to work for my father, but I wanted something off from it. If it doesn't work like you want to, you go somewhere where it does.

Not that it wouldn't be good - Me myself and customers loved great good crust with beautiful cheese, bacon, tomato, ham and barbeque sauce on top of it. And with Mountain Dew. But our counsin had his pizzeria just next to ours - he stole customers from us and we had to fight to fight.

This lead me to escape to America. In the beginning of 90's I started my own pizza place in the Manhattan. It was great time - customers rolled in, were happy and just loved what I baked. But the competition came there too - there was thousands of cheapo kebab/pizza places that offered substandard pizzas to customers with lower prices.

I tried to fight - I tried to it with quality. I tried having free beers and hookers. But people just went to the cheap pizza places. How am I supposed to work with that?

Actually I'm asking slashdot. How I am supposed to fight the cheapo crappy pizza places when I offer quality pizzas? Does it matter to keep quality? What you love about pizza?

Re:Other countries are interesting

[rastilin]

Remember that it's not so bad to leave a country to do business elsewhere. When I worked in Naples, I would not get almost any pay. Yes, I was a kid and I was supposed to work for my father, but I wanted something off from it. If it doesn't work like you want to, you go somewhere where it does.

The fact that he's moving is not the problem. The problem is that his staff have been working unpaid in order for the company to recover.

Actually I'm asking slashdot. How I am supposed to fight the cheapo crappy pizza places when I offer quality pizzas? Does it matter to keep quality? What you love about pizza?

I love my pizzas to be as cheap as possible.

Re:Other countries are interesting

[PizzaAnalogyGuy]

Actually I'm asking slashdot. How I am supposed to fight the cheapo crappy pizza places when I offer quality pizzas? Does it matter to keep quality? What you love about pizza?

I love my pizzas to be as cheap as possible.

But why? Apart from the usual everything-as-cheap-as-possible, the pizzas on crap places taste shit. And it's not like it's much different - $1-2 and you get a lot better ingredients, crust and service. If anyone has ever visited any of those cheap pizza places in Europe, you know what I'm talking about.

Re:Other countries are interesting

[snowgirl]

I suggest an Ask Slashdot to get a wider array of response... as is, this is offtopic.

Re:Other countries are interesting

[fractoid]

Remember that it's not so bad to leave a country to do business elsewhere. When I worked in Naples, I would not get almost any pay. Yes, I was a kid and I was supposed to work for my father, but I wanted something off from it. If it doesn't work like you want to, you go somewhere where it does.

It IS so bad when you use a bunch of legal dodgery to take ownership of the IP while evading the millions of dollars of debt that you owe to the staff. It IS bad when you break a whole bunch of laws to get that IP out of the country, so you can start another studio in another country without actually paying what you owe to any of your employees. And (personal conjecture here) it IS bad when you will most likely you will do exactly the same to the new studio.

Disclaimer: IAAFIZE. I am a former IZ employee.

Re:Other countries are interesting

[Ginger Unicorn]

look at his name - he's a pizza themed troll.

Re:Other countries are interesting

[Anonymous Coward]

> The problem is that his staff have been working unpaid in order for the company to recover.

But that's retarded. They had little reason to do that other than some profoundly misplaced loyalty - they're apparently employees not company partners? Of course I may not be getting the full story, but working for someone without being paid and without keeping the result of your work (i.e. open source, in fact the whole reason open source makes economic sense is because you keep the fruits of your labor and other people also having copies doesn't diminish that) is dumb.

Re:Other countries are interesting

[Anonymous Coward]

The fact that he's moving is not the problem. The problem is that his staff have been working unpaid in order for the company to recover.

I don't see what the problem is: If they worked unpaid by choice, then they're foolish, in my not so humble opinion, and here's why: Having been cheated before, I'd not trust even family or friends when it comes to my financial future, and certainly not an employer.

Work for free? Sorry, been there, done that, much in the same way as these people: I trusted the company's owner, believed him when he said that he'd reward me and the rest of us, if we were only patient and worked hard. It would all work out in the end, you see, and everyone would end up wealthy.

Yeah, right. The only person that ended up wealthy was him - he sold the company, and the people that had worked to build it up got nothing, and had no recourse, as we had nothing in writing.

As the saying goes: "Once burned, twice shy". I'm older now, and considerably more cynical, and I don't work for any employer for free, ever. The only thing that we have is our lives, and we cannot know how much time we have: Giving it away to an employer without recompense is foolish at best, because they never remember the sacrifices you made for them, and you can never get that time back.

Always keep that in mind when dealing with an employer: You're trading your life in exchange for money. Make sure that it's worth it to you, don't ever be surprised when someone tries to cheat you and don't let them do so.

Re:Other countries are interesting

[snowgirl]

look at his name - he's a pizza themed troll.

I don't think he's a troll... I just think that he doesn't speak English natively, and doesn't realize this is not the topic branch to discuss it.

It's not really worth labeling everyone causing trouble as a "troll"... because some people just don't know any better.

Re:Other countries are interesting

[maxwell demon]

> The problem is that his staff have been working unpaid in order for the company to recover.

But that's retarded. They had little reason to do that other than some profoundly misplaced loyalty - they're apparently employees not company partners? Of course I may not be getting the full story, but working for someone without being paid and without keeping the result of your work (i.e. open source, in fact the whole reason open source makes economic sense is because you keep the fruits of your labor and other people also having copies doesn't diminish that) is dumb.

Well, working for free does make sense if you expect to get the money later. Basically they've given the company a loan. It turned out the company owner was not credit-worthy, though.

Re:Other countries are interesting

[Zontar The Mindless]

Actually, I live about half a block away from one of those cheap pizza places in Europe (Stockholm, to be exact). Little hole in the wall place. Run by Kurdish immigrants. Great (and dirt-cheap) pizzas, and their calzone are to die for. As good as some I've had in Italy.

So, no, I guess that I don't really know what you're talking about. :)

Re:Other countries are interesting

[Trahloc]

But that's retarded. They had little reason to do that other than some profoundly misplaced loyalty

The only reason the loyalty was misplaced was because the CEO screwed them. Had he honored their commitment and worked as hard as possible to save the company and then paid them back dues + bonus/stock their loyalty would have been dead on. Unfortunately they worked for a douchebag. I'm the first person to have no loyalty for a large mega corp but small shops require it. We can't function without the employees giving a damn about the company and the company can't function without giving a damn about their employees.

Re:Other countries are interesting

[Antique Geekmeister]

Wait: are we talking about a game company, or SCO?

Oh, yes. Both.

Re:Other countries are interesting

[maxwell demon]

Yeah, right. The only person that ended up wealthy was him - he sold the company, and the people that had worked to build it up got nothing, and had no recourse, as we had nothing in writing.

The latter was your real problem. Working for free to get more money later is no problem if you can afford it (and you don't expect the company to go bankrupt). Working for free without getting a written and signed agreement that you get more money later is.

Re:Other countries are interesting

[toriver]

Game companies often hire people for whom that is their first job. They have not yet learned that companies are psychopathic abusers, and that your only loyalty is to yourself and your colleagues. Any kindness you offer to the company as such - working for no pay for instance - will never be returned by them.

Re:Other countries are interesting

[Sulphur]

free beers and hookers

Either you were running a tipsy knitting circle, or the folks were looking for a boss behind the boss --

big cheese, xtra crust, and anchovies.

Re:Other countries are interesting

[kiddygrinder]

his name is pizzaanalogyguy...

Re:Other countries are interesting

[biryokumaru]

I believe the saying you're looking for is:

Fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again.

- Former President Bush

Re:Other countries are interesting

[Anonymous Coward]

No shit, Sherlock.

Re:Other countries are interesting

[jonadab]

> I love my pizzas to be as cheap as possible.

I like homemade pizza. Good *and* cheap.

The major caveat is, you have to start a couple of hours before you want to eat, because the dough needs time to rise. This is fine on, say, a Saturday, because you can just mix up the dough at three in the afternoon, then go do something else for a while and have supper at five or six.

But it doesn't work so well if you get home from work at six and are already hungry. On those days, I don't make homemade pizza for supper.

Re:Other countries are interesting

[Smauler]

Has anyone else noticed the picture of Mike Turner with the Sphinx in the background halfway down the third page linked to in TFS? The caption below it is surely a little redundant...

Re:Other countries are interesting

[TheRaven64]

You have three choices:

1. Leave with one month of your salary unpaid and write it off as a mistake.
2. Leave with one month of your salary unpaid, sue the company, force them to declare bankruptcy, still don't get your money, and still have to pay the court costs.
3. Work for another month, get the product finished and get all of your back pay plus a bonus if the company makes enough money from selling the product to stay afloat.

Which do you choose? The second option is a waste of time. The first is a guaranteed loss. The third is a gamble, where you potentially have a bigger loss, but potentially have a gain. I know people working for small businesses who have received nice bonuses for choosing option 3, and others who have had the company fold owing them back pay. If you don't have another job lined up to start immediately, it's often a good idea to try to keep the company afloat while you look for other employment as a backup.

Re:Other countries are interesting

[TheRaven64]

If you have a bread maker with a timer, you can throw the ingredients in the machine in the morning before you leave for work, then have the dough ready for when you get back.

Re:Other countries are interesting

[Anonymous Coward]

That's kranzky finding a little humour in an otherwise horrible situation ;-)

Re:Other countries are interesting

[Anonymous Coward]

He's comparing software you have to pay for (MS) with freeware (Linux). When did /. get so dense?

Re:Other countries are interesting

[kyrio]

snowgirl is the troll.

Re:Other countries are interesting

[shentino]

To all employees of that company:

I have managed with great efforts to be seizing the funds of your CEO and sold off his IP, resulting in $40,000,000 of recovered funds. Per Australian Tax code 419, unpaid employees may receive such funds.

Please do forward $100 processing fee to file a claim for your back wages.

Seriously, those guys should have known better.

Re:Other countries are interesting

[Chaos Incarnate]

I dunno. Little Caesars' $5 pizza is cheaper than what I can make myself... Call it $3.50 (at the low end, assuming I get stuff on sale) for the sauce, cheese, and pepperoni; that least $1.50 for crust and labor. And I'd be lucky to squeeze just the crust in that much. ;)

Re:Other countries are interesting

[Atryn]

The only reason the loyalty was misplaced was because the CEO screwed them.

And a man's honor should know no geographic bounds, especially in this day and age. I would expect anyone considering business with this man (including anyone in Ireland, or elsewhere) to take heed and note that he is not trustworthy. I would also encourage such former employees to make the facts of the case known wide and far, as far as is possible without criminal libel or slander.

Re:Other countries are interesting

[fractoid]

Yes.

Re:Other countries are interesting

[Anonymous Coward]

You obviously haven't seen his posts before. He is most definitely a pizza themed troll (why?!).

It isn't a language barrier - his english is evidently too good to "not know any better" and to use a different topic branch to discuss it.

His stories are not even consistent and always pretty lame, he stretches it too far getting a pizza theme to these stories.

Also, he should use a different name - he rarely makes a pizza analogy, just a pizza troll

Re:Other countries are interesting

[Daengbo]

Loki didn't pay its employees for months, and on top of that, it used the employees' credit cards before folding shop.

Re:Other countries are interesting

[Anonymous Coward]

snowgirl is my pillow. =)

Re:Other countries are interesting

[Anonymous Coward]

murder is always a recourse. then where is his of money, other than burning on top of his worthless corpse.

Re:Other countries are interesting

[NormalVisual]

Even signed agreements are worthless unless you have the money to enforce them in court.

Re:Other countries are interesting

[Anonymous Coward]

As good as some I've had in Italy.

Italian pizza sucks. Now the Greeks, they know how to make a pizza.

Re:Other countries are interesting

[TheTyrannyOfForcedRe]

The only reason the loyalty was misplaced was because the CEO screwed them. Had he honored their commitment and worked as hard as possible to save the company and then paid them back dues + bonus/stock their loyalty would have been dead on. Unfortunately they worked for a douchebag. I'm the first person to have no loyalty for a large mega corp but small shops require it. We can't function without the employees giving a damn about the company and the company can't function without giving a damn about their employees.

But how do they know the CEO is a good guy? What is he's a psychopath and the poor worker bee have no hope of discovering in time?

Also, you don't need the CEO to be a bad guy for him to do shitty stuff. Even good people end up looking out for themselves and their immediate families in the end. If it's balls to the walls does Mr. Good and Honorable CEO put a priority on taking care of his worker bees or assuring that he can continue to provide food and shelter for his wife and kids? Human nature and personal experience tells me it will be the latter.

Re:Other countries are interesting

[nlindstrom]

I'm having trouble understanding all of these pizza analogies. Can someone please give me the gist of this story as a car analogy?

Re:Other countries are interesting

[Anonymous Coward]

It's a question of the time. One month? No, sorry. I can't afford that much. I have to eat, and if it all goes wrong I don't want to be living on the street with no rent or food money. One or two weeks? Perhaps. But that would be my financial limit in terms of giving slack to the company when it comes to payroll.

Re:Other countries are interesting

[longhairedgnome]

You put too much respect behind food, some of us just eat to live.

Re:Other countries are interesting

[longhairedgnome]

This is the MOST disgusting description of Little Caesers' that i've read.

Re:Other countries are interesting

[Wintywasthere]

In some situations, you're wrong. A few years ago I had the pleasure of working for a small company that actually did reward my efforts. I worked out of hours for nothing just to get the job done. I didn't expect returns on that. Between unexpected bonuses and stock options (which I never thought would amount to much), I did very nicely out of that job. My point is - although larger companies tend to be as you describe, not all companies screw you over if you put in extra effort.

Re:Other countries are interesting

[Akoman]

Seeking an address for the executives or the office location for the American portion of the company. Would the Australian unit be interested in flying pickets?

Re:Other countries are interesting

[multisync]

And a man's honor should know no geographic bounds, especially in this day and age. I would expect anyone considering business with this man (including anyone in Ireland, or elsewhere) to take heed and note that he is not trustworthy.

This situation reminds me of Conrad Black carrying boxes out of the Hollinger offices right in front of G*d, the video cameras and everyone. These guys just believe they are above it all. Modern day libertines.

Re:Other countries are interesting

[pommiekiwifruit]

And note that you probably can't claim unemployment benefit if you do 1 or 2, in the UK and I suspect Australia anyway.

Not to mention in case anyone hadn't noticed there have been thousands of people laid off in the games industry in the last few months, which makes it harder to get a new games job.

Also the "anti-compete" clause in your contract will probably forbid you from going to another games company (if the boss were not fleeing the country anyway).

I am not sure about the situation in California/Texas/Quebec/BC/Japan would be though.

Re:Other countries are interesting

[canadian_right]

I'm pretty sure Australia has loser pays, so you won't get stuck with a big lawyers bill if you win.

3. is a BIG gamble. I'd go for 1, or 2 if I can get a lawyer to take the case on contingency.

Re:Other countries are interesting

[X0563511]

I, personally, will happily pay $25 for a good quality pizza. Others seem happy with that $5 crap.

Re:Other countries are interesting

[MichaelSmith]

Also you can be looking for work while working for free with the old job. Its easier to get a job while you are employed. You don't get taken advantage of as much that way.

Re:Other countries are interesting

[Anonymous Coward]

Option #4:

Encrypt the entire codebase the minute you don't get paid, and just sit on the key till you do.

Re:Other countries are interesting

[Anonymous Coward]

I want a snowjob :)

Re:Other countries are interesting

[gronofer]

My experience is that it's best to take a loss as soon as you realise that you are in a losing situation. The longer you leave it, the larger the loss will get.

Re:Other countries are interesting

[Anonymous Coward]

Look, from past discussions with you, I am certain that you are mentally retarded, but c'mon, its pizzaaanalogyguy. Click on the name, see all of his other posts, and stop being a complete dumbass.

Re:Other countries are interesting

[Anonymous Coward]

I would expect anyone considering business with this man (including anyone in Ireland, or elsewhere) to take heed and note that he is not trustworthy.

Unfortunately in this day and age that seems to be a point in favor of working with someone for a lot of CEOs.

If the guy you're working with is honest, it's going to be harder to pull a scam on him. If he's greedy and shifty, it'll be easier to con him. Plus if he has a history of bad behavior, you know what to look for to see where he's trying to con you. If his history smells like a rose, that might just mean that he's a better scammer than you are and you're going to get blindsided by him because you don't know where to look for the knife that's coming for your back.

Once you realize that most successful corporate executives have the exact same skillset as a good con-artist, the business world becomes much, much easier to understand. And it disappoints you far, far less as well.

Re:Other countries are interesting

[snowgirl]

You obviously haven't seen his posts before. He is most definitely a pizza themed troll (why?!).

It isn't a language barrier - his english is evidently too good to "not know any better" and to use a different topic branch to discuss it.

His stories are not even consistent and always pretty lame, he stretches it too far getting a pizza theme to these stories.

Also, he should use a different name - he rarely makes a pizza analogy, just a pizza troll

Thank you for actually explaining this situation rather than just saying "HIS NAME IS PIZZAANALOGYGUY!!!"

Re:Other countries are interesting

[jayme0227]

So what you're saying is that it's cool to con people because they're giving their money up willingly?

Well.. have I got a bridge to sell you!

I know where the money is hidden

[Fanboy Fantasies]

HERE
*_g_o_a_t_s_e_x_*_g_o_a_t_s_e_x_*_g_o_a_t_s_e_x_*_
g_______________________________________________g_ _
o_/_____\_____________\____________/____\_______o_ _
a|_______|_____________\__________|______|______a_ _
t|_______`._____________|_________|_______:_____t_ _
s`________|_____________|________\|_______|_____s_ _
e_\_______|_/_______/__\\\___--___\\_______:____e_ _
x__\______\/____--~~__________~--__|_\_____|____x_ _
*___\______\_-~____________________~-_\____|____*_ _
g____\______\_________.--------.______\|___|____g_ _
o______\_____\______//_________(_(__>__\___|____o_ _
a_______\___.__C____)_________(_(____>__|__/____a_ _
t_______/\_|___C_____)/INSERT\_(_____>__|_/_____t_ _
s______/_/\|___C_____)_GERBIL|__(___>___/__\____s_ _
e_____|___(____C_____)\_HERE_/__//__/_/_____\___e_ _
x_____|____\__|_____\\_________//_(__/_______|__x_ _
*____|_\____\____)___`----___--'_____________|__*_ _
g____|__\______________\_______/____________/_|_g_ _
o___|______________/____|_____|__\____________|_o_ _
a___|_____________|____/_______\__\___________|_a_ _
t___|__________/_/____|_________|__\___________|t_ _
s___|_________/_/______\__/\___/____|__________|s_ _
e__|_________/_/________|____|_______|_________|e_ _
x__|__________|_________|____|_______|_________|x_ _
*_g_o_a_t_s_e_x_*_g_o_a_t_s_e_x_*_g_o_a_t_s_e_x_*_

Important Stuff: Please try to keep posts on topic. Try to reply to other people's comments instead of starting new threads. Read other people's messages before posting your own to avoid simply duplicating what has already been said. Use a clear subject that describes what your message is about. Offtopic, Inflammatory, Inappropriate, Illegal, or Offensive comments might be moderated. (You can read everything, even moderated posts, by adjusting your threshold on the User Preferences Page) If you want replies to your comments sent to you, consider logging in or creating an account.

Important Stuff: Please try to keep posts on topic. Try to reply to other people's comments instead of starting new threads. Read other people's messages before posting your own to avoid simply duplicating what has already been said. Use a clear subject that describes what your message is about. Offtopic, Inflammatory, Inappropriate, Illegal, or Offensive comments might be moderated. (You can read everything, even moderated posts, by adjusting your threshold on the User Preferences Page) If you want replies to your comments sent to you, consider logging in or creating an account.

Important Stuff: Please try to keep posts on topic. Try to reply to other people's comments instead of starting new threads. Read other people's messages before posting your own to avoid simply duplicating what has already been said. Use a clear subject that describes what your message is about. Offtopic, Inflammatory, Inappropriate, Illegal, or Offensive comments might be moderated. (You can read everything, even moderated posts, by adjusting your threshold on the User Preferences Page) If you want replies to your comments sent to you, consider logging in or creating an account.

Re:I know where the money is hidden

[Anonymous Coward]

Marty, is that you?

First to run and first to post.

[Anonymous Coward]

First to run, first to post. Adios, muchachos.

Editors please!

[Anonymous Coward]

The point of having editors is to fix the glaringly obvious errors and check sources.

"Cought"!

For crying out loud.

Bunch of Asian Employees ?

[Anonymous Coward]

I see a whole bunch of Asian employees in the video-link posted in TFA. Asian employees in an australian company. Does anyone find this funny ?

Re:Bunch of Asian Employees ?

[fractoid]

Australia is part of Asia. A decent proportion of our population are of Asian origin. If you're talking about foreign computer science students who want to stay on in Perth to make games, the percentage goes up even higher. :) That said, though IZ was a very diverse group of people from all over the world.

Re:Bunch of Asian Employees ?

[walshy007]

wikipedia Australia, look at the map, wikipedia Asia, look at the map. They are different continents

We may have a ridiculous amount of asian immigrants that still speak chinese/japanese after they get here, but that still does not make us a part of asia.

Re:Bunch of Asian Employees ?

[fractoid]

Oh, I'm sorry, I forgot the map demarcations on Wikipedia define whether or not we're part of Asia or not.

Re:Bunch of Asian Employees ?

[Starayo]

Australia is part of Asia.

WTF are you smoking? If it's not already illegal it should be.

Re:Bunch of Asian Employees ?

[nibbles2004]

Australia has never been part of Asia, it part of the Australian continent

Re:Bunch of Asian Employees ?

[mdwh2]

Oh, I'm sorry, I forgot the claims of one random person on Slashdot define whether a country is part of Asia or not.

Re:Bunch of Asian Employees ?

[Anonymous Coward]

Piss off fractoid, If that's your real name.
In the late 80's, a big movement in Aus tried to block
the yellow menace, but it didn't get it's shit together.
Now, We (USA) and Aus and other countries struggling to
keep all "citizens" employed are overrun with Illegals
and green card suckers that pull the rates to min wage
levels.
Fuck them, deport them all. Stop all imports and block
the borders. Kill all foreign aid and use the money to
rebuild the country. Let Darwin kill off the weak and reduce
the population by 50%. It can only be good, for US.

Re:Bunch of Asian Employees ?

[Anonymous Coward]

Hmmm... My experience with Asians in Oz was that Oriental chicks give amazing head. Bit different from yours, I guess.

Re:Bunch of Asian Employees ?

[jonadab]

> Australia is part of Asia.

Depending on which list of continents you go by, there are a lot of variations. The geographers, geologists, and sociologists can't seem to agree on a single definition, so it can be a bit confusing. How many continents are there, anyway? Five? Six? Seven? More?

For instance, there are variously considered to be one, two, or three continents in the western hemisphere. Two is the most common figure, but it's not universal.

Europe may or may not be part of the same continent as Asia. I even saw one list that makes Africa part of the same continent as Eurasia, since they're connected.

Some lists omit Antarctica entirely, since it has no permanent inhabitants.

But for all that, I have never seen a list that made Australia part of Asia. Usually it's a continent all by itself. Frequently it's part of a "continent" called "Oceania", which also includes most of the islands in the Pacific (but not the ones that are very close to another continent, such as Taiwan or Vancouver Island). Sometimes only a few islands are included as part of Australia -- Tasmania, New Guinea, etc. I've even seen definitions that include New Zealand as part of Australia but NOT New Guinea (which was listed as part of Asia).

I have even seen occasional claims that Australia is an island, not part of any continent at all. (These claims generally come from laypersons and usually involve comparison to Greenland; typically the person making the assertion has been looking at Mercator-projection maps.)

But this is the first time I have EVER seen anyone list Australia as part of Asia. That's totally unprecedented.

Re:Bunch of Asian Employees ?

[Anonymous Coward]

Piss off fractoid, If that's your real name.

You're not the sharpest knife in the drawer, I see.

Re:Bunch of Asian Employees ?

[TapeCutter]

"We may have a ridiculous amount of asian immigrants that still speak chinese/japanese after they get here, but that still does not make us a part of asia."

We actually have very few Japanese immigrants but they do love spending their holidays and money here, particularly in Queensland where the local economy is heavily dependent on tourisim.

The Japanese are golf mad and a golf trip to Oz to play on a real golf course is cheaper than a golf club membership in Tokyo to play on a multi story driving range. On the whole they are very well mannered guests in our country and tend to stick to organised tour groups because of the language barrier.

Also every chineese immigrant I have ever met speaks english, it's a requirement to get into the country unless you come in as a refugee and we do not recognise people from China as refugees.

As you probably know there is a minority racist element in our population who idolise people such as Pauline Hanson. Hanson is ironically now emmigrating to the UK after basically being ridiculed and laughed out of politics by the rest of us. I think she is in for a shock when she finds out how many second and third generation "brown people" are wandering around the UK.

For the non-Aussie readers, members of Hansen's minority are generally refered to as "yobbos", which when translated into American means "rednecks".

Re:Bunch of Asian Employees ?

[poetmatt]

I don't consider australia a part of asia myself, but considering that new zealanders are practically asian/pacific islanders and are basically your neighbors, it's understandable where they infer this.

Re:Bunch of Asian Employees ?

[walshy007]

As you probably know there is a minority racist element in our population who idolise people such as Pauline Hanson.

Very few people would disagree that the way she handled politics wasn't very smart, or politically correct. However I believe racist would greatly depend on your definition.

Example, you would know of austudy and abstudy, these are centrelink payments you get as a student. Now, in an equal society, why are these two different systems needed, why can't aboriginal students be treated the same as white students?

They receive more money and more benefits than any white man could hope for in the same situation. Call me crazy, but that is racist, against the majority. But the very moment any of this is brought up, it's considered politically incorrect and you are called racist, I just don't get it.

Is it racist to want equal treatment for people? instead of giving certain subsections extreme benefits compared to others?

Re:Bunch of Asian Employees ?

[Anonymous Coward]

Australia has always been a part of Oceania.

Oceania has always been at war with Eurasia.

Re:Bunch of Asian Employees ?

[Atryn]

Example, you would know of austudy and abstudy, these are centrelink payments you get as a student. Now, in an equal society, why are these two different systems needed, why can't aboriginal students be treated the same as white students? They receive more money and more benefits than any white man could hope for in the same situation. Call me crazy, but that is racist, against the majority.

I don't know the Australian systems you describe but your summary makes them sound a lot like Affirmative Action here in the US. This is a tough question. There is no question that AA is prejudice and, depending on implementation, racist. However, as it is there to correct a past wrong, the hard part is deciding when it is still or no longer needed. We are struggling with this question still in the US, as evidence by the recent University of Michigan case on admissions.

One major issue here is whether the "need" for AA is perceived to be "over" in some areas (such as the North) but the opposite in others (like the South)... I waffle a bit on this issue myself. I'd personally prefer no law or regulation mentioning race (thus invalidating AA) but that is based on the assumption that racism and inequality is no longer an issue... which is only true in some places.

Re:Bunch of Asian Employees ?

[Cimexus]

Er I'm assuming this is a troll, but just in case anyone else doesn't realise, Australia has a reasonable number of ethnically east Asian people. As in >10% of the population (and closer to >20% in some urban areas).

Australia isn't technically in Asia, but its geographic proximity definitely affects the makeup of the population. Far more Asians per capita here than in the US, for instance.

Re:Bunch of Asian Employees ?

[TapeCutter]

"Call me crazy" - Ok you're crazy, $6.50 extra per week is hardly an "extreme benifit".

"Very few people would disagree that the way she handled politics wasn't very smart, or politically correct. However I believe racist would greatly depend on your definition." - Given you define two extra cups of coffee per week as an "extreme benifit", can you please explain your definition of racist.

"I just don't get it." - Yes, I figured that one out from your first post.

Re:Bunch of Asian Employees ?

[Anonymous Coward]

Thanks for the thoughtful, balanced comment ... note that the perceived racial bias in the North vs the South has a lot more more to do with history than with current reality. You might be a bit closer if you differentiated urban and rural, but even that's an over-simplification.

Re:Bunch of Asian Employees ?

[walshy007]

Fair enough, I concede I should have looked up the numbers beforehand, one would assume that if there is an entire section dedicated to them, that there would be enough discrepancy to justify that departments existence. Never underestimate government overhead I guess.

Still, if the difference is so little, then why NOT do as said above and put them on the same line as everyone else?

can you please explain your definition of racist.

Someone who wants different treatment depending on race

Basically, opposing affirmative action (giving certain people special preference in certain things) was what got her labelled racist the most, specifically because those groups that are receiving benefits have something to lose. While I was never a supporter of hers because she was an idiot, I don't see how wanting people to be treated equally equates to being racist.

If you can put forward a pro affirmative action argument that is completely fair and unprejudiced to all parties, go ahead.

"I just don't get it." - Yes, I figured that one out from your first post.

the ridiculous amount of asians comment was specifically because I find it strange to be in your home town having everyone around you talk in chinese. Could just be I consider it slightly rude, but it makes you feel as if you are out of place, even though most of them can speak english.

Re:Bunch of Asian Employees ?

[walshy007]

just a quick point I left out on the other post though, what that article does not describe is the average level of payment, for instance, I was getting well under half what that site has listed for youth allowance.

more information would be needed to discern typical payments, as opposed to maximum, but that is irrelevant simply by the fact that having them on a different system is already flawed.

Re:Bunch of Asian Employees ?

[TapeCutter]

Yes, the seperate schemes are a hangover from affirmative action of the 70's and 80's. As I posted in my reply to walshv007 the extreme benefits that no white man could hope for amount to an extra $6.50 per week. ANY student coming from a defined remote area can also apply for rental assistance, people living in remote areas tend to be aboriginals.

Ideologically I'm also not in favour of legislation based on race but pragmatically the aboriginals have not benifited from the so called "lucky country". Until very recently most lived in what can only be described as thrird world conditions, lost between stone age traditions and the 20th century laws.

We also have race based legislation banning the sale of alcohol in many of the aboriginal settlements, their traditional social structures are 40kyrs old and have never had to deal with alcoholisim until the last hundred years or so. Aborigines are also permitted to hunt otherwise protected species on their reserves. IMHO these laws are a GoodThing(TM).

Re:Bunch of Asian Employees ?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's very easy for over-privileged whites to say shit like that, both in Austrailia and in the U.S.

And isn't it odd? Both areas were historically TAKEN OVER by whites, yet their descendants complain about any form of retribution or equilibrium among their 'minority' brethren.

Sad, really.

Re:Bunch of Asian Employees ?

[TapeCutter]

As I posted in a reply to someone else ANY student coming from a defined remote area can apply for rental assistance so I would expect aboriginals to be overrepresented in that particular payment. I am also ideologically against race based legislation but in my book pragmatisim trumps ideology and therefore I support laws such as banning the sale of alcohol in aboriginal settlements and the special un-sniffable petrol sold in the outback.

Given the level of misinfomation on aboriginal issues on both sides of the argument I suspect that any political party who tried to streamline the payment system would be painted as racist by their opposition. As an example I don't like Howard but I believe his intentions and actions were noble in the "NT military takeover" and were painted as racist by a large number of people who should have known better.

Just to be clear I don't think you are racists but I admit I was pushing buttons to see how you would react. I appologise for doubting your character.

Re:Bunch of Asian Employees ?

[Anonymous Coward]

Australia is part of Asia.

How many continents do you think there are? Name them.

Re:Bunch of Asian Employees ?

[WeirdJohn]

Austudy and Abstudy are different because the situations are radically different. Many Aboriginal people expect to be worked as slaves, beaten and raped in schools. They don't trust us white teachers with their children - after all, that is what happened to them when they went to school. The Austudy paperwork is not suited to people with extended relationship groups, with communal property concepts and relatively fluid addresses.

The so called "extra benefits" for the Indigenes are about equity - providing the opportunity for equality, not equality in itself. Comparing it to the "affirmative action" of the US is misinformed, as there has never been an indigenous African American culture, although there is an interesting hybrid culture in Florida.

Re:Bunch of Asian Employees ?

[Anonymous Coward]

> Also every chineese immigrant I have ever met speaks english, it's a requirement to get into the country

That's absolutely not true. Australia does not mandate that you speak english as a requirement of immigrating to the country.

A few of my Aussie neighbours are of chinese descent and arrived here in the last few years, I can tell you flat out that they do not speak english. I work with a guy who came to Australia from China 10 years ago who learnt English here, didn't speak a word of English until he got here. There are a number of stores local to me that are run by Vietnamese and Chinese people who hardly speak a word of English..

Austraila has never mandated English speaking as an entry requirement -- we have elderly Greek families living down the street who have lived here for 20+ years that STILL don't speak English. There are stores in Richmond with only Vietnamese labelling/signage -- no English whatsoever.

Melbourne is the most multicultural city in the world. Saying that all people here speak English is complete rubbish.

Re:Bunch of Asian Employees ?

[melting_clock]

The are a lot of people from Asian countries on the Gold Coast, many of them come here to study and a lot of them stay. Australia is clearly not part of Asia, as correctly pointed out by others. Having close trade relationships and, in some cases, security ties means that we participate in forums with Asian countries. China is a largest trading partner, they buy just about everything we export and we end buying a lot from them, sometimes cheap crap. It is perfectly normal to find groups of Asian people in certain areas or businesses, as happens in many countries.

While we wouldn't try to compete with Canada but Australia is a generally friendly country where almost everyone really doesn't care where you come from. We even accept US tourists when running low on crocodile food...

Re:Bunch of Asian Employees ?

[euxneks]

However, as it is there to correct a past wrong, the hard part is deciding when it is still or no longer needed.

How about never needed? I'm not the one to punish for something someone else's grandfather did to another person's grandfather. Affirmative Action is totally ridiculous and should never be implemented by any company or government. The merits of a worker is their talent, not the colour of their skin or where they come from.

I do, however, agree with giving the person free education. Of course, this may sound a bit two-faced, but I believe very strongly in education, and any chance that we can get people educated or motivated to be educated should be embraced whole-heartedly.

Re:Bunch of Asian Employees ?

[Atryn]

How about never needed? I'm not the one to punish for something someone else's grandfather did to another person's grandfather. Affirmative Action is totally ridiculous and should never be implemented by any company or government. The merits of a worker is their talent, not the colour of their skin or where they come from.

I used to be of this same perspective when I was younger and more naive. AA has nothing to do with "punitive" measures for your "grandfather's" wrongs, so don't misinterpret it that way. AA has to do with the imbalance/inequality in opportunity available to otherwise equal people. Yes, the merits of a person -- I agree. But what if that person never had the opportunity you had because of a pervasive and persistent bias culture?

As I said before, this isn't the case anymore in many places, but it certainly is in others. Even in the public, free K-12 system in the US there are still significant inequalities in access to resources, talent, technology, etc. that are entirely tied to historical inequities and patterns. Much has been done and is being done to overcome that, but it is hard.

The wealthy and established (majority and historically white) will always want the "best" for their children -- better than what anyone else is getting. It is virtually impossible to "match" opportunity to develop the "skills" you speak of among otherwise equal babies. This is what makes class/caste systems persist.

Now, I am a white male in the US who has suffered under reverse discrimination and AA, so don't think I'm pleading my own case. But I see where my "upper-middle-class" upbringing has tremendous advantages over a multitude of others. And I have recognized raw talent in people that is simply lacking any development and refinement due to unequal opportunity.

Yet, I remain on the fence on the issue of AA and I think it may be approaching the point where its negatives outweigh its positives... we'll see.

Re:Bunch of Asian Employees ?

[Dexter Herbivore]

Yeah, they do give amazing head. I especially like the bit where they stick a finger up your..... errrrr, never mind.

Re:Bunch of Asian Employees ?

[smash]

You don't have locally born asian people who are good at math(s - with the S on the end as used by civilised nations) and computer science?

Call wikipedia

[bl8n8r]

There's a new poster child available for the "ConnivingBastard PrickManager" definition.

Re:Call wikipedia

[Anonymous Coward]

Dont' power lines runs reverse in Perth so he ca't use their servers in northern Ireland? If so he has to pay for all the shipment so he's out some spooners, ay mattey?

Re:Call wikipedia

[Anonymous Coward]

You are thinking of the toilet bowls. Those run backward.

Re:Call wikipedia

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh, yuck. I prefer my toilets to flush the shit out of my house not into it.

Re:Call wikipedia

[Anonymous Coward]

Score: 0 ? C'mon, guys, that was bloody funny, especially to an Aussie - mod it up!

Re:Call wikipedia

[jonadab]

That doesn't belong on Wikipedia. Wikipedia is not a venue for that sort of thing. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, and people like you are polluting it with all kinds of unencyclopedic content that doesn't belong there. Stop it.

If you want to post definitions, you should put them on Wiktionary.

Re:Call wikipedia

[JustOK]

up is down in Australia

Re:Call wikipedia

[PopeRatzo]

This isn't such a big deal.

Here in the US, we've had entire industries do this to their workers. It's called "free-market capitalism" writ large.

The only interesting thing is that Interzone did this to technology workers.

Maybe it's time the techies realized that they are working class and not the professional class many have thought of themselves. And management really is out to fuck you over.

Re:Call wikipedia

[BlackHawk-666]

Not totally sure about Ireland, but it's most likely the same as the UK. You get a dongle for the power plug, and plug it in. Power is 240v 50hz, same as here or close enough to not matter.

Re:Call wikipedia

[Anonymous Coward]

That doesn't belong on Wikipedia. Wikipedia is not a venue for that sort of thing. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, and people like you are polluting it with all kinds of unencyclopedic content that doesn't belong there. Stop it.

If you want to post definitions, you should put them on Wiktionary.

Thanks for the hand-holding, pal. Do you have any other insightful guides on how one should use other websites? I'm sure your heads just brimming with information.

BTW, you should Wiki "joke".

Re:Call wikipedia

[Neoprofin]

It is, they're still using the King George mailboxes you guys installed too.

Re:Call wikipedia

[Colin Smith]

Maybe it's time the techies realized that they are working class and not the professional class many have thought of themselves.

I've found it amusing for quite a while that developers call themselves "engineers" despite not following any forms of engineering practice. Not to say there aren't software engineers, but they're few and far between, maybe 1% or so of developers. Most are really just tradesmen. Just like weavers.

 

Re:Call wikipedia

[Nursie]

I find that attitude patronising in the extreme. Many more than 1% are engineers. Engineering practice is defied by the discipline not some god of engineering and there are many good sets of practices in the industry.

Personally, I design and implement high throughput, low latency server software that deals with mission critical data and/or financial transactions. I consider myself an engineer. Please don't pull out either of the old fallacies that engineers are either personally, legally, responsible for any failing in their work (demonstrably untrue in civil or other engineering firms where the company may be responsible but the individual is not) or that "you're an engineer when the thing you designed kills someone if it goes wrong" because that puts many electronic engineers in the "not engineer" camp and many software guys in the engineer camp.

Is every programmer a "Software Engineer"? I don't know, but I dislike the dismissive attitude.

Re:Call wikipedia

[Anonymous Coward]

It's refreshing to see an American CEO that actually knows enough about his own company to know what to steal.

Re:Call wikipedia

[Antique Geekmeister]

No, it's interesting that the manager showed up and seized the equipment without an opportunity for employees to clear personal data or office possessions. That's pretty unusual.

I've seen small companies closing their doors under different, but similarly awful circumstances. (Power being cut, losing their network feed due to non-payment, unpaid-for equipment being seized, etc.) An important rule for employees facing such troubles is to make sure you have all legal documents in off-site backup. Follow your contracts, but make sure your payment records, stock information, signed contracts, etc. are available offline. And consider whether to back up your work and email offsite or on separate media: I've actually been offered a return consulting job to come back and reconstruct work that I'd done and they'd deleted all source code for, as part of purging my old accounts. Since I;d been there as a corporate partner, and they tried to pay me under the table and not notify my company, I contacted our sales and legal departments. It turned out they hadn't paid six months of outstanding bills, and hiring me behind my company's back would have been much cheaper for them and much more profitable for me, but would have left my employer with much less leverage to get paid.

Fortunately for me, the key work I'd done had actually already been submitted to the relevant open source project's main codelines, so it wasn't lost. And they hadn't noticed the explanations in my contract about what working on GPL tools nad publishing them to that client meant, that they were under GPL. We actually managed to get them to cough up at least some of the backpay, mostly for explaining where to to get the updates.

Re:Call wikipedia

[u38cg]

Interestingly, this is almost exactly what the US headquarters of Lehman Brothers did immediately before the collapse - repatriated all the cash from overseas operations to pay US staff and creditors before anyone else.

Re:Call wikipedia

[AmberBlackCat]

I think you're giving all types of engineers too much credit. Cars with no brakes, VCR's that eat video tapes, potholes, phones that can't operate in normal weather, bridges that fall in, exploding spacecraft, leaning towers... All types of engineers are every bit as much crap as you think software engineers are. They just get a lot more credit because they've been crap longer. But I'm not bitter...

Re:Call wikipedia

[Punctuated_Equilibri]

Way to take one case, and generalize it to justify a vastly oversimplified view of how the system works. These guys got screwed, but some early employees of Microsoft, Apple, Google etc ended up as millionaires. That is the startup gamble.

Mike Turner's actions will be judged through the legal system, that is also part of the system, it's like a checks and balances thing.

You can bitch about the "free market" -- again that is just one component of something a lot more complicated. But that is the dynamic bit that produces companies like MSFT, AAPL and GOOG. If you don't like that, there is a huge government sector just waiting for you.

I can't believe comments that have so little intellectual depth get modded +5 insightful.

Re:Call wikipedia

[dmgxmichael]

Wow! I'm an engineer now because my software can kill somebody! That really makes me feel better. ( Program in question is in PHP so how could it kill someone you ask? Well it's used by doctors when they prescribe medications to patients. If looks up the other medications the patient is on and looks for dangerous interactions. So if this look up fails or is miscalculated and the user doesn't notice then the patient could be killed )

Re:Call wikipedia

[Anonymous Coward]

Engineer. I do not think that word means what you think it means. In fact, I'm fairly certain you haven't a clue what you're talking about.

Re:Call wikipedia

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't blame capitalism for the failings of one piece of shit. A true capitalist would not have started such a company off a government grant, nor would their workers continued working for no pay. That's entirely the fault of socialism for enabling a conniving bastard like that guy to rise.

Re:Call wikipedia

[Anonymous Coward]

It is dismissive, you code monkey. I know CSCI in the big ten does not teach engineering principles. Now, would you like a banana?

Re:Call wikipedia

[jonadab]

> Here in the US, we've had entire industries do this to their
> workers. It's called "free-market capitalism" writ large.

Umm, except for the part about never paying them a dime for hours they already worked. The DOL would be all over them if they tried that one.

Moving the business overseas on short notice and leaving them all out of a job with no warning? Yeah, that part's totally legal, assuming the workers were employed in the standard at-will fashion. (Some workers do have contracts with their employers that disallow this, but that's a special case.)

But you do have to pay them for the hours they already worked.

Re:Call wikipedia

[ChinggisK]

(demonstrably untrue in civil or other engineering firms where the company may be responsible but the individual is not)

Uh, what? Dead wrong for civil firms at least, I'm quite certain that a certified Professional Engineer that is found guilty of negligence can both get fined by his state's PE organization and/or lose his license (aka tens of thousands of dollars a year in salary) - here's a source for you. IANAL so I wouldn't know the details about being personally sued but I've heard many stories about it happening. From my understanding PE's are COMPLETELY responsible and liable for drawings they sign off on; that's why they get paid the big bucks.

Re:Call wikipedia

[ChinggisK]

Just an added note - I'm not saying I disagree with the rest of your post, but I dislike the dismissive attitude in reference to civil PE's :)

Re:Call wikipedia

[BrokenHalo]

Mike Turner's actions will be judged through the legal system, that is also part of the system, it's like a checks and balances thing.

His actions will not be judged, here in Perth or anywhere else. The Government officials responsible for handing him taxpayers' money will all duck to cover their asses as usual, while he sits in his office in the US rubbing his hands and saying "you is ma bitch! yuk yuk..."

Re:Call wikipedia

[Anonymous Coward]

Please don't pull out either of the old fallacies that engineers are either personally, legally, responsible for any failing in their work (demonstrably untrue in civil or other engineering firms where the company may be responsible but the individual is not) or that "you're an engineer when the thing you designed kills someone if it goes wrong" because that puts many electronic engineers in the "not engineer" camp and many software guys in the engineer camp.

Totally wrong.

If you are a professional engineer, when you put your stamp on a design or set of blueprints you ARE personally legally responsible if something goes wrong.

In any realm dealing with public safety, any engineer in training can work on the plans, but there is always at least one licensed professional engineer that must place his stamp on the final product. By doing so he is affirming that he has checked the plans and personally vouches, and is therefore responsible, legally and ethically, for the safety of the public.

If something goes wrong and people die or are injured, you can and will be sued and/or prosecuted for your negligence if the fault lies in the design and not in the workmanship.

Until you've taken and passed the Principles and Practices of Engineering exam, you are an Engineer in Training if you have a BS in Engineering... or just a code/server monkey if you haven't.

Real engineers will always be dismissive of those calling themselves engineers when they aren't, just as lawyers are dismissive of anyone trying to claim the professional title when they haven't passed the Bar.

A business cannot legally offer engineering services to the public without employing at least one licensed Professional Engineer.

This is why you don't see recent college graduates with a BS starting their own engineering firms... despite lack of experience, I'm sure some would try.. except that it is illegal.

And now.. since I realize I'm a real engineer telling a board full of nerd-rage prone techies that they are entitled to the title of engineer as much as the local garbageman.. I'll put on my anonymous asbestos suit.

Re:Call wikipedia

[dbIII]

As I see it if unless you are going to abide by the code of ethics of your local professional engineering group and would be eligible for membership then you shouldn't go around calling yourself an engineer. I think we've been over this before and you fit the bill but a cable TV installation "engineer" or MSCE would not.
I've been burdened with a saleman with no technical education, training or experience that called himself an engineer - it's a suprisingly common annoyance.

Re:Call wikipedia

[Anonymous Coward]

Moving the business overseas on short notice and leaving them all out of a job with no warning? Yeah, that part's totally legal, assuming the workers were employed in the standard at-will fashion

Reading that part makes me a little jumpy as the standard at-will employment is completely illegal in many countries. Government grants often have a very large number of conditions on many aspects of business and breaking them by leaving the country like this is considered fraud. No need to talk about the tax embezzlement. Ireland as part of the EU will probably extradite the man if he has foolishly not left Ireland already.

Re:Call wikipedia

[BrokenHalo]

That's entirely the fault of socialism for enabling a conniving bastard like that guy to rise.

You really do not have a fucking clue what you're talking about, do you? Our Western Australian state government is in the power of the so-called "Liberal" party (read extreme right-wing-conservative). Not that the Labor party is any different. Either way, the role of government in Australia is currently deemed to be acting as a facilitator for business.

Which usually means throwing public money into private companies' hands. If you can think of a single definition of socialism that this even remotely fits, do please tell us.

All our democracy really means is that we get to elect our own group of robber barons.

Re:Call wikipedia

[suprcvic]

Set your anti-capitalist feelings aside and look at this objectively. Yeah, he screwed them over, but his goal in life wasn't "I'm going to screw these people over so hard and it's going to be awesome!!!!111!" His goal was money and the employees happened to get screwed over by his lust for it. I'm all about entrepreneurship, I'm a small business owner myself, but you can't force people to have a conscience. Even in a socialist society, the workers get screwed over, just for other reasons. People are always more interested in looking out for number 1 and the economic setup just determines how they screw others.

Re:Call wikipedia

[Eil]

Hate to burst your corporate, free-market and capitalism-bashing bubble, but asking your employees to work for 18 months and then skipping town is illegal in the US.

Also I'm not sure how much sympathy I have for anyone whose paycheck for a full year and a half consisted entirely of hopes and dreams. Especially in game development, where these kinds of stories are a weekly event.

Re:Call wikipedia

[Anonymous Coward]

I believe the engineer is responsible on projects where they are the 'P.Eng' and they actually approve it - i.e. sign off on the work done by others.

Re:Call wikipedia

[the eric conspiracy]

99.5% of the various issues that you are describing are the result of some manager going to the engineer and saying "we will launch tomorrow" or "this is too expensive use plaster instead of carbon fiber composite reinforced titanium honeycomb" or "you have to use my brother's company for the batteries" regardless of whether or not it is passing quality tests or operating within design parameters, or is too cold for the O-Rings to work.

Challenger Disaster Report:

"The engineers at Thiokol also argued that the low overnight temperatures would almost certainly result in SRB temperatures below their redline of 40 F (4 C). However, they were overruled by Morton Thiokol management, who recommended that the launch proceed as scheduled. Despite public perceptions that NASA always maintained a "fail-safe" approach, Thiokol management was influenced by demands from NASA managers that they show it was not safe to launch rather than prove conditions were safe. It later emerged in the aftermath of the accident that NASA managers frequently evaded safety regulations to maintain the launch manifest (schedule)."

And:

It is important to learn these lessons. NASA didn't and we lost another shuttle, Columbia, because of it:

The CAIB [Columbia Accident Investigation Board] report concludes that while NASA's present Space Shuttle is not inherently unsafe, a number of mechanical fixes are required to make the Shuttle safer in the short term. The report also concludes that NASA's management system is unsafe to manage the shuttle system beyond the short term and that the agency does not have a strong safety culture.

The Board determined that physical and organizational causes played an equal role in the Columbia accident - that the NASA organizational culture had as much to do with the accident as the foam that struck the Orbiter on ascent. The report also notes other significant factors and observations that may help prevent the next accident.

From Air Force System Safety Handbook for Acquisition Managers, Air Force Space Division, January 1984.

Atlas ICBM Launch failures were caused by bypass of procedural steps, and by management decisions to continue, in spite of contrary indications, because of schedule pressures

Re:Call wikipedia

[Yevoc]

An increasing number of programmers over the years have started calling themselves engineers, and it truly bothers me. This source of ire came to a head 2 years ago when I needed to hire engineers that also knew how to program. Being in Seattle, 99% of the applicants advertised themselves as engineers, and while many of them were intelligent and very well versed in programming principles and practices, not a single one of them knew anything about what would be learned in engineering school.

Here are some examples of interviewing questions I made to lend understanding of the distinction I had to make between programmers and engineers:
What is a Fourier (or Laplace) transform?
What is a convolution?
What is an RMS mean compared to an average?
What is a duty cycle?
How do you apply Kirchoff's law to a circuit?
What is the time constant of an RC circuit, and what does it mean?
What is the resonance frequency of an RLC circuit?
What is the nyquist frequency?
What does a PID controller do?
What is a normal force?
What is Colomb's Law?
What conditions are needed to change 2 sandwiched diodes into a transistor?
Explain what a conduction band is.
What is a triple point for a material?
What happens to the orbitals of atoms as they are brought closer together?
How can you make steel conduct heat better, and what are the drawbacks?
What is metal fatigue on the micro or nanoscopic level?
What is Newton's Law of Cooling?
What does the Reynolds number tell you?
What is a Carnot engine and why is it special?
What should the flow velocity be directly on a surface experiencing laminar flow?

Programmers had a higher chance of answering the few questions at the top compared to the bottom, but one thing was painfully clear: those who had learned engineering knew most of the answers, and programmers calling themselves engineers usually knew none. This particular list covers many disciplines, but this list actually covers what you'd need to know as a COMPUTER ENGINEER to pass the fundamentals of engineering exam. Computer Scientists simply do not learn an engineering background to have this kind of knowledge.

As a practicing engineer that has seen programmers severely injure people, blow up objects, and burn circuitry due to their lack of engineering knowledge, the fundamental distinction I draw between an engineer and programmer is that a programmer mostly deals with concepts and ideas entirely created by humans, where engineers are forced to understand and deal with nature itself on an everyday basis.

To clarify this point, I usually liken programmers to mathematicians: Good ones are usually scientists and have to constantly utilize the scientific method to get their job done, and their work is constantly invoked by the world on a regular basis, but generally their work routinely deals with abstractions and hierarchies, and they can do their job quite well without understanding how the physical world works. Indeed, some of the best programmers I've ever known have built amazingly efficient "engines" without ever knowing how the physical components they rely upon are designed or operate on a physical level.

I will grudingly admit that there clearly is a fuzzy line between engineer and programmer, but it falls squarely within the Computer Engineering discipline. Some of us "code" in hardware, where the chip physics is our syntax, making us much more in the engineering camp, and some of us move entirely into the machine/instruction language regime, where an understanding of the computer science of creating an abstract algorithm and less of the physics come more into play, making those of us closer to computer science. By the time you get beyond chips reading machine language, the man-made abstract meaning of the 1s and 0s are what fill your mind entirely, leaving the physics to someone else, and that science of crafting a decently run representation is called programming.

The fact that you could go on to craft entire systems using black boxes that operate as you command means that while your efforts are certainly complex and necessary, it is not engineering.

Re:Call wikipedia

[NormalVisual]

A true capitalist would not have started such a company off a government grant, nor would their workers continued working for no pay.

Perhaps not, but he almost certainly would have hidden behind the government's apron by incorporating in order to keep his employees from holding him personally liable, even when his actions resulted in a loss for them.

It's laughable when people talk about "capitalism" but then still demand the government protect them from the consequences of their own bad decisions.

Re:Call wikipedia

[NormalVisual]

Umm, except for the part about never paying them a dime for hours they already worked. The DOL would be all over them if they tried that one.

Not as much as you'd think. The Department of Labor doesn't care about anything except that the employee gets paid the federal minimum wage, and that overtime is paid when earned. Did you get stiffed for a month's work at your salary of $80K/year? The DoL will force them to pay you for that month at $7.25/hour, plus that amount again as liquidated damages. Anything else you'll have to pursue on your own via civil court unless your state has decent worker protection laws, and even then it won't really matter if the company goes bankrupt.

I'm dealing with this situation right now - a previous employer screwed me out of a few thousand dollars (although there were other employees that are owed far, far more money), and neither Georgia (where the employer is based) nor Florida (where I am) have any employee protections worth a damn, so really the only recourse I have is to pursue them in court myself on my own dime and hope they don't declare bankruptcy before I can get a judgement and subsequent lien. At least if I have the lien it will put me in a much better position if they do BK on me. The funny thing is that they got all upset and fired me for refusing to come back into the office until they'd paid me when (at the time) they were three payrolls behind.

Lots of places apparently think it's okay to extract interest-free loans from their employees and to force *them* to shoulder the financial risk, instead of the shareholders. Some of them even have the unmitigated gall to tell the employees that they're not being "team players" when they refuse to do so.

Re:Call wikipedia

[Anonymous Coward]

There needs to be a higher standard for such code. I'm sure you'll only kill a few and never have to suffer a negligent homicide charge. Thank you for this though. I am going to make a prosecutor running for office VERY happy because I'm going to suggest he go after such neo-engineers as yourself and jails them.

Re:Call wikipedia

[Anonymous Coward]

Ahh, the typical high-modded political agenda post on /.

Fact is, this has nothing to do with management versus workers. It has to do with abuse of power, regardless of the position. The tech workers should have been smart, and instead of working for free, (and maybe they did) exchange the IP for their time contractually (not just words or hope), so when he does run off an start a new company, the product can't ship because THEY own a piece of it.

We've seen entire industries shut down by well paid union workers for weeks if not months, with auto strikes, candy makers (Hershey chocolate), ship port laborers preventing imports and exports to nearly the entire west coast of the US, etc. Hell, one of the reasons we have a "health care crisis" is because of unions and benefit accounts, from which ERISA was born (unions looking out for retirement and benefit savings, that ended up screwing themselves over with the very law they wanted shifting power from management and executives to doctors, who were looking out for themselves in turn, who lost power to the insurance industry).

You're anti-capitalism rant is just that, anti-capitalism. Simply don't put yourself in a position to be taken advantage of, or minimize it. These workers did. I'm usually against unions, particularly those that want pay and benefit hikes when everyone else is getting screwed and the industry suffer, and this is one area where I think unions are and have been a good thing.

Do not work for free. Do not believe payment down the line unless it is written into protecting you. If you believe someone's word, that's YOUR gullability, not capitalism screwing you. btw, there's a bridge in Sydney that's for sale, contact parent, he'll gladly sell you it despite his anti-capitalism sentiments.

Re:Call wikipedia

[QuoteMstr]

Agreed. Software development is not engineering, though it does share some common attributes and requires a similar mode of thought.

(By the way: I knew the answers to the vast majority of those questions and I'm hardly an engineer myself. Is it possible that you just found rather dumb developers?)

Re:Call wikipedia

[DJoffe]

Here in the US, we've had entire industries do this to their workers. It's called "free-market capitalism" writ large.

Oh please. Firstly, FTS, which part of "Interzone's .. office was created with the assistance of a state government grant" sounds like free-market capitalism to you? Secondly, not paying your employees the agreed amount is already illegal under free-market capitalism, and blatantly defrauding labor is not "capitalism". The fact that your drivel got moderated +5 is testament to how widespread this rabid anti-free-market-capitalism cult has seemingly become right now.

If you believe your boss is just out to fuck you over, just quit already and do something else. Actually it's thanks to the "free-market capitalism" you criticise that it really is as simple as that; if you think it's better in other countries where they don't have that nasty "free-market capitalism" then by all means move somewhere like Cuba. The reason you have a job at all is because of your boss.

Re:Call wikipedia

[JoshHeitzman]

Sorry, but the professional engineering licensing/certifying organizations do not have a trademark on the word engineer, and the word has been around longer then the said organizations. Software engineers don't call themselves Certified/Licensed Professional Engineers, so I don't see the problem. Certified/Licensed Professional Engineer != engineer and engineer != Certified/Licensed Professional Engineer.

Re:Call wikipedia

[phantomcircuit]

To be fair the VAST majority of their creditors where US based.

Re:Call wikipedia

[JoshHeitzman]

That's because they are capitalists in name only, only wanting the parts that benefit them and not the parts that don't.

Re:Call wikipedia

[Yevoc]

I interviewed over 100 applicants, and not a single programmer by trade satisfactorily knew more than 2 answers, while the 10 engineers I found got roughly half of them right. I did find it interesting that almost all of the programmers thought they knew the answers and had gotten them right when they clearly did not.

It is also worth noting that several people were clearly abusing Wikipedia during the phone interviews, as you could hear the rapid keystrokes followed by pauses and that they could not answer simple follow up questions probing their knowledge of the subject matter.

Ultimately, the person who got the job was an Electrical Engineer who deeply understood all of these questions, their follow-ups, and more engineering questions I didn't post, as well as some programming questions like "what's the difference between the heap and the stack?"

Turns out he only got the programming questions right because he was forced to be a Computer Science TA for a semester.

Re:Call wikipedia

[St.Creed]

A true capitalist would not have started such a company off a government grant, nor would their workers continued working for no pay.
Perhaps not, but he almost certainly would have hidden behind the government's apron by incorporating in order to keep his employees from holding him personally liable, even when his actions resulted in a loss for them.
  It's laughable when people talk about "capitalism" but then still demand the government protect them from the consequences of their own bad decisions.

Actually, that has been the modus operandi of capitalism since it went live. The state is the general management team for capitalists, a sort of "dad" for all the children/companies: sometimes the kids get out of line and need a good whack, sometimes they are in trouble and dad bails them out. It's just too bad that dad is actually a mobster and the money is obtained by extortion and armed robbery.

I used to be quite unhappy about it, until I started my own business and discovered that I too, was suddenly adopted and got to share in the bounty :)

Re:Call wikipedia

[Anonymous Coward]

Cool, a quiz!

What is a Fourier (or Laplace) transform?

A certain linear transform that maps function points to orthogonal set of functions that self-convolve onto itself and to "zero" with others.

What is a convolution?

For finite signals, draw a signal using another as a "brush", adding up the overlapping parts :)
Alternatively, multiply the corresponding frequencies. The integral definition is a bit backwards with that pesky minus sign.

What is an RMS mean compared to an average?

Something totally different. RMS represents energy. Average just position.

What is a duty cycle?
How do you apply Kirchoff's law to a circuit?
What is the time constant of an RC circuit, and what does it mean?
What is the resonance frequency of an RLC circuit?

No idea.

What is the nyquist frequency?

The maximum width of frequency band that be reproduced correctly from sampled signal. Or half of it if you go complex and consider negative frequencies too.

What does a PID controller do?
What is a normal force?

Umm.. force minus tangent force? :)

What is Colomb's Law?
What conditions are needed to change 2 sandwiched diodes into a transistor?
Explain what a conduction band is.
What is a triple point for a material?

Heat/pressure combination where three phases meet.

What happens to the orbitals of atoms as they are brought closer together?

They become quantized due to pauli exclusion principle bringing the matter into degenerate state?

How can you make steel conduct heat better, and what are the drawbacks?
What is metal fatigue on the micro or nanoscopic level?
What is Newton's Law of Cooling?
What does the Reynolds number tell you?

Something about when the flow becomes turbulent but the exact definition is faint.

What is a Carnot engine and why is it special?
What should the flow velocity be directly on a surface experiencing laminar flow?

Constant?

Okay, I fail. Now let's try some counterquestions:

What does it mean for something to be NP-complete?
What is the golay code?
What is the hotelling transform?
How would you apply it on statistics?
Explain the difference between O() and o().
What is the busy beaver function and what makes it special?
What is the finite element method?
Why are denormals needed and what are the practical downsides?
What is a deadlock? Can you avoid it?
What does abstraction elimination mean?
How do you parallelize an adder?
How can you make password hashes secure against precalculated look-up tables?
What is the relationship with BWT and the Psi-function?

Okay, I wasn't actually arguing against your point. Just pouring gasoline onto the tough engineers vs. wimpy programmers war:)

However, mathematically I don't see much difference between engineering and good software engineering. Sure, it's working with black boxes, but if you just.. abstract the black box into a parameter you get a pure box that works with any black boxes as long as they function within specifications :)

Re:Call wikipedia

[radish]

I always think it's hysterical when American engineers get so up in arms about "mere" programmers daring to call themselves engineers. In the UK, the status of Chartered Engineer is given to trained, professional engineers in many disciplines. Each discipline has it's own professional body who are permitted to issue the certification, and guess what? The BCS (British Computer Society) are one of those bodies, and can award CEng status to suitably qualified people. There's no mention of having to understand Newtonian Mechanics as a prerequisite...

Re:Call wikipedia

[HereIAmJH]

All our democracy really means is that we get to elect our own group of robber barons.

I like that. I think I'll forward it to my congressional representatives. They seem to have forgotten the whole 'representative' thing.

Re:Call wikipedia

[Anonymous Coward]

I never went to engineering school, I never passed college (twice, actually), but even I can answer about 75% of those questions without needing to get out a reference. They seem far too easy. The other 25% I'd have refreshed myself on beforehand if I knew I was applying to the type of job that required their knowledge (I assume an embedded systems designer position).

But I rarely get interviews because people assume my lack of formal education means I'm a dunce. Oh well, doesn't matter, most of those places suck ass to work at anyway. And I'm in an Engineering position right now, but in my country I can't call myself an engineer as I lack the iron ring. I jokingly call myself an "Engineerist" instead. :)

I have to admit, though, most people can run mathematical circles around me. I do truly suck at math, which probably explains a lot of my failure at formal education. But it hasn't hurt my abilities in programming, systems administration, or electronics yet (and I've never had my boss complain, either)! Although, perhaps once or twice a month it does slow me down a bit. It might be worth cracking open the algebra book again someday if I ever get laid off.

As long as you are willing to spend the time interviewing candidates such as myself, though, you will find that diamond in the rough.

Re:Call wikipedia

[Zey]

Anonymous Coward writes:

A true capitalist would not have started such a company off a government grant [...]

A true capitalist takes seed money from whoever is willing to offering it at the lowest price. Only a nitwit ideologue lets their personal prejudices get in the way of making money.

Re:Call wikipedia

[martin-boundary]

Well said.

Re:Call wikipedia

[Anonymous Coward]

A local government grant is free market capitalism, there is a fine line in economic development, but it doesn't look crossed here. Paying people you owe money to is a civil affair, take them to Perth court, not the court of the internets if you expect anything to ever be done.

As far as I can tell the employees kept coming to work without pay, this was their choice, were is the fraud? Employees claim that he didn't pay taxes? Thats a non starter if I have ever heard one. The only thing left to do is try and enforce your contracts, but I suspect they are judgment proof in Australia, so have fun with that.

Re:Call wikipedia

[MichaelSmith]

Also mains power in WA runs at 260 volts for historical reasons (the rest of the country uses 240) so back in the days before switchmode power supplies you really did have to adapt your equipment to use it elsewhere. Even now they have special lightbulb product lines in Western Australia,

Re:Call wikipedia

[MichaelSmith]

If this happen to non-professional unionised workers they would get the guys flight out of the country black banned by other unions.

Re:Call wikipedia

[styrotech]

Hehe, I did a non degree civil (ie not electrical) engineering certificate nearly 20 yrs ago and even I knew about half the answers to those questions.

Apart from the professional/ethical/liability requirements of being an engineer, I regard an engineer as someone who can quantify how a design is going to perform under different circumstances before it has actually been built.

A lot of programming is build something and see how it works then tune/tweak/fix it if it doesn't work well enough - ie how I work now that I've switched careers (I don't regard myself as an engineer any more). And to be completely fair, this is probably the best approach for a lot of programming work. Most software projects don't have the money or time to actually be 'engineered'.

Engineering is what you are doing when you really only get one shot to get it right beforehand - eg most civil engineering projects are so big and the materials inflexible enough that having to redo something during or after it is built is at best extremely expensive and case career limiting or at worst case criminally negligent.

Re:Call wikipedia

[DJoffe]

As far as I can tell the employees kept coming to work without pay, this was their choice, were is the fraud?

It's honestly a little embarrassing having to point out something this obvious, but the fraud is that they were promised that they would ultimately be paid, and now it looks like they're not going to get paid at all. They never agreed to work for free, only that their wages be deferred; the employer broke an agreement.

If the boss said "we want you to work for free" and they inexplicably said "OK" that would be free markets at work, sure. But that's not what happened. If you have an employer-employee agreement stating you will be paid for your labor and you don't get paid, that's fraud. If you can't see that, I'm sorry, I don't know how to make it more obvious.

Re:Call wikipedia

[QuoteMstr]

A certain linear transform that maps function points to orthogonal set of functions that self-convolve onto itself and to "zero" with others.

It might be more useful to provide the typical use case: transforming signals between time and frequency domains for signal processing.

Something totally different. RMS represents energy. Average just position.

Sort-of: you use RMS for energy, sure, but that's because RMS is a type of average. Fundamentally, the average is a mathematical trick we can use to treat a collection of items with various values as if they all had the same value. The "average" used in daily life is called the "arithmetic mean", and is only one of several approaches. It's used for averaging quantities. To pick an example, another kind of average is the harmonic mean, which is used for rates. RMS is just another kind of average, the "quadratic mean", which has the nice property of telling us about the magnitude and variance of a set of numbers that would uselessly cancel each other out with other mathematical tools. (What's the arithmetic mean of the current in an AC line? Not very useful, is it?)

What is a duty cycle?

Come on: you should know this one as a programmer. A "duty cycle" is the portion of time a device spends on, or active. Numerically, it's the ratio of "on" time to "off" time. If you've ever programmed a PC internal speaker to play digital audio, what you've actually done is very the duty cycle to simulate continuous variation using a technique called "pulse width modulation".

How do you apply Kirchoff's law to a circuit?

I dimly recall that this law has something to do with conservation of charges around a circuit, but don't remember anything besides.

How can you make steel conduct heat better, and what are the drawbacks?

Err, just a guess, but alloy it with copper? The drawback would be the expense and reduced strength, I imagine.

What is metal fatigue on the micro or nanoscopic level?

The formation of microscoping, creeping, and growing cracks.

What is Colomb's Law?

You should remember this one from high school physics: it states that static electric charges obey the inverse square law.

They become quantized due to pauli exclusion principle bringing the matter into degenerate state?

Not unless you happen to live in a neutron star. I think the answer the OP was looking for was that they distort and form more complex patterns (like what we call "covalent bonds").

Re:Call wikipedia

[systemeng]

Using the word engineer on this side of the pond generally means that you went through an academic curriculum that would allow you to pass the first licensure test required of a professional engineer. I believe the reason that there is concern about the word engineer is due to the American Society of Mechanical Engineers wanting to certify engineers designing steam boat boilers in the 1800's when unqualified people designing boilers caused many fatal explosions. In many U.S. states, it is against the law to call yourself and engineer of any kind if you are not a Professional Engineer, the U.S. equivalent of a Chartered Engineer. In the State of Alabama where I live, I get the newsletter for the Alabama Board of Engineers and Land Surveyors and there are half a dozen cases a year of people being prosecuted under civil law for practicing engineering without a license or using the word engineering in a company name without employing a Professional Engineer. You Brits have your CEng designation, we have the P.E. designation.

Re:Call wikipedia

[Raptoer]

So basically you wanted a super engineer that could do everything for you?

At my college there are at least a dozen different types of engineers. What exactly is 'engineering school' anyways? a structural engineer wouldn't know what a PID controller is or how to change 2 sandwiched diodes into a transistor.

I can't tell from your questions if you want a materials engineer or a computer engineer...

I think the problem is that your job description was too general.

Engineers take a real world problem or a variation on a real world problem and come up with a solution. Scientists figure out the laws that govern physical phenomenon. Mathematicians stare at a bunch of stuff and magically (ok not really) come up with ideas that help both engineers and scientists.

Electrical engineers come up with new components.
Computer engineers come up with chips and boards that use these new components.
Computer scientists come up with algorithms to use these new chips and boards.
Software engineers come up with programs to solve real world problems using these new algorithms.

For me the key difference between a programmer and a software engineer is the parts of the solution that they come up with.

A software engineer takes the customer's problem, determines what exactly they want, writes a spec, designs the system, implements their design with sufficient documentation, goes through all the testing including security testing, shows the customer, and goes back to implementation/design until they get what exactly the customer wants.

A programmer might be able to design, and can probably implement the design without sufficient documentation, and MIGHT be able to test it properly.

So programming is a sub-discipline of software engineering.

Kind of what a carpenter is to a structural engineer. Except the structural engineer is also the carpenter (but there's also a lot of other carpenters working with him).

You asked for an 'engineer with programming experience' You should have asked for a computer engineer... I think... I can't even tell what you want.

Engineering has nothing to do with physical components, it's just that until software most problems were solved with physical objects.

Re:Call wikipedia

[Anonymous Coward]

Thats not fraud. For it to be fraud the state would have to prove he never had any intention of paying the workers. They would have to find documents discussing this or get an admission. Common law has nine elements of fraud, ianal, but I will provide a simple legal lesson for you. In order to commit a crime you have to satisfy all of the elements of the crime. The elements of fraud are:

      1. a representation of an existing fact;
      2. its materiality;
      3. its falsity;
      4. the speaker's knowledge of its falsity;
      5. the speaker's intent that it shall be acted upon by the plaintiff;
      6. plaintiff's ignorance of its falsity;
      7. plaintiff's reliance on the truth of the representation;
      8. plaintiff's right to rely upon it; and
      9. consequent damages suffered by plaintiff.

If you are so sure fraud was committed please consider the facts as we know them and each element of the crime of fraud. How do you expect to prove in a court of law he satisfied elements 1, 2, 3, and 4? Your feelings don't count, there has to be real evidence, proof beyond a reasonable doubt. Or would you rather Australia not be a nation of laws?

Not getting paid as agreed in a contract is breach of contract, you are entitled to seek civil damages but it is not a criminal act to not pay your bills. One should also be aware of various tort claims that could come out of the employees internet campaign, the company could seek significant damages from them, they should seek the advise of a local attorney.

If this is fraud, then not paying your credit card is fraud. We got rid of debtors prison in the English speaking world a long time ago.

Re:Call wikipedia

[DJoffe]

And no, government giving grants for video game development can simply not be considered a case of free-market capitalism in action, by definition. At all. That cannot be reconciled. I suggest you read up on what free-market capitalism actually is; the reason you're probably confused about is, understandably, probably that you've been told that what we have is a system of free-market capitalism. The term "capitalism" has a specific definition in economics --- it can't mean whatever you want it to mean (sorry) and by its definition, calling government funding a video game an instance of "capitalism in action" is so misguided, it's honestly difficult to know where to begin to correct such a confused view. People may differ on various less crucial aspects of the definition of capitalism, but one thing fundamental to its definition is the means of production being privately (i.e. not government - by definition) owned and traded.

Re:Call wikipedia

[PopeRatzo]

Also I'm not sure how much sympathy I have for anyone whose paycheck for a full year and a half consisted entirely of hopes and dreams.

You sound like you're ready to be in management.

Re:Call wikipedia

[PopeRatzo]

Not only that, but they'd be able to provide legal representation for the workers.

US-style "free-market" capitalism loves to use "contract" laborers because it's a lot easier to screw over someone who's all by himself.

We have to face it: our system is now systemically hostile to workers at all levels, from the lowliest laborer to the big-shot "software engineer".

It's all one big plantation now.

Re:Call wikipedia

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm a computer programmer in Perth and I had a whole bunch of people trying to get me to interview for this place. I looked them up and then ran as fast as I could in the opposite direction. I'm glad to see that my instincts were good, though disheartened for all the people that have been screwed over by it.

Re:Call wikipedia

[Anonymous Coward]

It might be more useful to provide the typical use case: transforming signals between time and frequency domains for signal processing.

Don't you think that's a bit obvious? Hey, I'm a programmer, obfuscation is my second name. (Plus those properties are pretty much what makes it useful. That they are called frequencies is going into details)

Sort-of: you use RMS for energy, sure, but that's because RMS is a type of average. Fundamentally, the average is a mathematical trick we can use to treat a collection of items with various values as if they all had the same value. The "average" used in daily life is called the "arithmetic mean", and is only one of several approaches. It's used for averaging quantities. To pick an example, another kind of average is the harmonic mean, which is used for rates. RMS is just another kind of average, the "quadratic mean", which has the nice property of telling us about the magnitude and variance of a set of numbers that would uselessly cancel each other out with other mathematical tools. (What's the arithmetic mean of the current in an AC line? Not very useful, is it?)

Well if it's nonzero it would tell that the line leaks DC.. As a "design pattern" f^-1(avg(f(x))) is a pretty useful one though.

Come on: you should know this one as a programmer. A "duty cycle" is the portion of time a device spends on, or active. Numerically, it's the ratio of "on" time to "off" time. If you've ever programmed a PC internal speaker to play digital audio, what you've actually done is very the duty cycle to simulate continuous variation using a technique called "pulse width modulation".

Okay, that was a blunder but on the other hand it's not a term I commonly use for some reason. What if I told you (lied!) that I didn't spend much at answering these seriously at all? :)

How do you apply Kirchoff's law to a circuit?
I dimly recall that this law has something to do with conservation of charges around a circuit, but don't remember anything besides.

Funny. Once upon a time I passed a test about that with full points and now my mind is as dim as yours if not worse. Guess I'm just not too interested about that stuff. Electricity was somehow just too many letters and surnames at once.

Err, just a guess, but alloy it with copper? The drawback would be the expense and reduced strength, I imagine.

Isn't that about as fair as "throw the steel away and replace it with diamond nanorods"? :) I was thinking about something relating to phasechanges or something.

What is metal fatigue on the micro or nanoscopic level?
The formation of microscoping, creeping, and growing cracks.

Oh this is getting silly already. Although I suppose if I thought it for a while I could actually come up with plausible sounding wrong answers.. You know like, "the electron orbitals become deformed and need to be refreshed".

What is Colomb's Law?
You should remember this one from high school physics: it states that static electric charges obey the inverse square law.

Ah okay, I tend to call it.. wait for it.. inverse square law :)
(possibly add "of static electric charges" to differentiate it from everything else that magically happens to follow similar law)

They become quantized due to pauli exclusion principle bringing the matter into degenerate state?
Not unless you happen to live in a neutron star. I think the answer the OP was looking for was that they distort and form more complex patterns (like what we call "covalent bonds").

Actually, a white dwarf would be enough since we were talking about atoms rather than nuclei;) Such degenerate matter is possible to create momentarily on earth too, although it involves a bit and there may be political consequenses.

Re:Call wikipedia

[Anonymous Coward]

Dont' power lines runs reverse in Perth so he ca't use their servers in northern Ireland? If so he has to pay for all the shipment so he's out some spooners, ay mattey?

For a long time, Perth had an unusual voltage spec - 251V 50Hz - there were historical reasons. That's gone now - Perth runs (nominally) 230V 50Hz like the rest of Australia. There's some variation with load - my UPS reports (in-spec) voltage variations from about 210V up to 250V - guess that's roughly 230V +/- 10%.

Re:Call wikipedia

[CharlyFoxtrot]

Don't know why you were modded down for that, it's exactly right. It's not exactly bad news either: we own our own means of production (both soft and hardware) and have access to the marketplace. Basically the first time in history this has happened since medieval peasants were able to augment their income by producing handicrafts on their own looms. Ideologies have been formed and revolutions fought to put the means of production back into the hands of the people and here we are in that very position. People can keep their victorian megalomaniacal "engineer" titles, I'm more excited to be part of the new tradesmen class.

Re:Call wikipedia

[TikiTDO]

This article is not about the US, so as much as the US supports this so called "free-market capitalism", some of the actions described in the article are against the law in Australia. So I will have to respectfully disagree, and say this is indeed a very big deal.

The assumption that is it accepted in the US, and thus must be accepted anywhere is certainly not sound. I imagine this will not end too well for this company.

Re:Call wikipedia

[TikiTDO]

I whole-heartedly disagree with your definition of an engineer, and what knowledge is required to be called one. You seem to view engineers as someone very well versed in material sciences. For instance, you state that using "black boxes" to design a system precludes you from being an engineer, because these boxes operate as you command. However, just because you can assume more of these boxes than you could in the physical realm does not mean there are no rules to consider, nor does it imply that those rules are any simpler than those you see in physics. They are just different.

I am not too surprised though, as I am surrounded by numerous traditional engineers that insist on calling me a "mere" programmer because I am satisfied by learning the key elements of their fields, which I will then use in my own designs. These same people have such a poor understanding of what it really means to *design* software, that I am forced to cringe every time I must go through their work.

And yes, I did finish a fully accredited engineering school, and have an engineering degree. Also, while I could answer many of the questions (though some only after popping open a book or two), I do not view such knowledge as definitive of the profession. Instead, I think of engineering as a state of mind, and a set of beliefs and values that encourages you to learn, though not necessarily master many fields in order to ensure your designs are the best they can be. Whether you designs are in the area of materials, circuits, or programs, there is always more to consider than what you see. I feel that suggesting that something stops being an engineer just because he works with things you cannot touch or feel is insulting to the very name of the profession you claim to practice.

Re:Call wikipedia

[TikiTDO]

Sorry, a bit more to add, but based on the questions you ask your candidates, you are simply not looking for a real software engineer. Instead, you are trying to get an electrical engineer (or computer engineer with an electrical focus) for a position that most likely involves writing very task specific code. Being a software engineer, I would not even bother replying to a job request like that, since it is obvious that my expertise would not be necessary for the tasks you have in mind. The same could be said for many other serious software designers. If a software system is really what you are after, you may be surprised by the results you get by changing your interview style a bit. If it is not, your current style probably gets you exactly the type of engineers you need for your project.

Re:Call wikipedia

[petermgreen]

RMS is just another kind of average, the "quadratic mean", which has the nice property of telling us about the magnitude and variance of a set of numbers that would uselessly cancel each other out with other mathematical tools.
Just as importantly Pavg=(Vrms)^2/R and similarly Pavg = (Irms)^2R

This is at least in electronics why rms is preferable to the mean of the modulus.

Re:Call wikipedia

[Anonymous Coward]

Each discipline has it's own professional body who are permitted to issue the certification, and guess what? The BCS (British Computer Society) are one of those bodies, and can award CEng status to suitably qualified people.

And let me guess, less than 1% of the programmers actually have CEng status? The arguement was never about programmers not being engineers, it was that every idiot sitting infront of a computer these days calls themselves an engineer. Heck the guy who came to install my airconditioning had "Airconditioning Engineer written on his card." The way he acted though he may as well have been a trade apprentice.

Re:Call wikipedia

[CAIMLAS]

I'd say that to be true. Programmers/developers are more like artists than they are engineers due to the way they tend to go about things. I'd say that if there were engineers in IT, it'd be the systems and network guys. Not so much the Jr. level system/network guys, but the senior level guys who design things out properly (as an engineer would) are certainly engineers.

Re:Call wikipedia

[CAIMLAS]

I couldn't agree with you more.

However, I consider myself a systems engineer, despite having no "formal" background in engineering.

I've got an IT degree as well as approximately a decade of helping my father with his self-owned engineering company: I was involved in all the nuances of the business and engineering side, often working side-by-side with my PE father to get a project out the door.

In short, I think like an engineer: I look at the low-level problem (or, at least, try to).

The "engineer" distinction is much more difficult to nail down for a programmer than it is for a systems or network guy. A "throw shit together" programmer doesn't have nearly as much distinguishing him from the others as a "throw shit together" net/sys guy does.

Re:Call wikipedia

[MacWiz]

I think that this tendency to call yourself something you're not comes in part from employers' expectations.

I'm seeing people asking for web designers with 2-year degrees and multi-year experience in Twitter (seriously, I've seen it) to maintain a virtually static page. I can imagine that if they wanted a chemist, they'd require a Nobel Prize.

I do (or did) Mac applications. No school teaches that except Apple. I learned by slogging through Pascal, C and C++, and by reading every volume of Inside Macintosh, something that the guys at Microsoft never did before 1995 or they would have known how to make a window with fucking scroll bars in FoxPro for the Mac. (They told me to use graphics to simulate a scrolling window. That was the day I stopped using Microsoft products.)

I sat through a semester of computer science at 35, but it was so outdated (and not a single prof on campus understood the Apple toolbox) that any degree would have been just a piece of paper, as it would not signify any knowledge gained, much less anything that would be applicable in the real world. The classes seemed more designed to merely get people to think in a logical manner. The final exam was something I could have done on the first day.

Not having 3-1/2 more years to waste, I quit school and went to work as a Mac programmer. Took a week to find a job.

We all know there are lots of people out there writing bad/buggy/dangerous/insecure software that were hired because of a degree, and are still rather incompetent because they still don't think logically enough to see peripheral consequences or anticipate/test user error factors, for instance.

They're not competent software engineers, but they have a piece of paper. I don't have a piece of paper, but I can make something that works properly.

Without trying to tell a story about the software I already did (Basketball stats, school free lunch program tracking, inventory database for Motorola, complete custom business accounting software), how many free-standing applications does one have to develop from scratch for different clients, according to their specs, before one can safely assume that they are a software engineer?

Or is it enough that your clients know that you engineered theirs?

As for the list of facts that all engineers should know...

Software engineering is not physical engineering. Software engineering is about making a piece of software that solves a problem, performs a function or deals with data in the desired manner. We're not building computers, we're writing software to operate within the restrictions already in place as a result of hardware choice. So we don't really need to know much about metal fatigue on the micro or nanoscopic level.

If we do, we look it up, code in the formula, test the calculations and forget it until the next time someone wants to ask their software about metal fatigue. But software will not change the metal fatigue of the computer housing it.

Most people just want to keep track of stuff. Especially money. Nothing ever explodes, except perhaps incompetent managers who have been fudging records.

As for black boxes, that rules out Windows and Mac interfaces entirely doesn't it? The entire difference between the two is that Mac has actual engineers hard-code the chips with these instructions, whereas Microsoft likes to keep the Windows interface more fluid so it can disable compting products. If I ask for a new window and one shows up, is it really necessary for me to grok the machine code that produced it, or can I move on to teaching it how to process payroll for 100 employees?

Re:Call wikipedia

[blue-slonopotam]

All of your questions are covered in introductory courses for SE in Russia.

Re:Call wikipedia

[DiEx-15]

Oh, yuck. I prefer my toilets to flush the shit out of my house not into it.

We have that problem here in the US. We call that "Politicians on TV"

Re:Call wikipedia

[exomondo]

Engineering is domain-specific. It's about knowing how to utilise the building blocks of that domain to produce (design/implement) a product/solution in that domain. Hence the reason there is no single 'engineer' but engineering is divided into domain-specific disciplines: Civil, Electrical, Software, etc... It's about knowing how to produce a product/solution from the building blocks of that domain. Otherwise what is your definition of 'engineer'?

Re:Call wikipedia

[Anonymous Coward]

do sanitation engineers know what a Carnot engine is?

Re:Call wikipedia

[exomondo]

99.5% of the various issues that you are describing are the result of some manager going to the engineer and saying "we will launch tomorrow" or "this is too expensive use plaster instead of carbon fiber composite reinforced titanium honeycomb" or "you have to use my brother's company for the batteries" regardless of whether or not it is passing quality tests or operating within design parameters, or is too cold for the O-Rings to work.

Same thing with software, "we'll release tomorrow", "this engine/API is too expensive, use something cheaper", etc...

Re:Call wikipedia

[Bakkster]

Okay, I wasn't actually arguing against your point. Just pouring gasoline onto the tough engineers vs. wimpy programmers war:)

However, mathematically I don't see much difference between engineering and good software engineering. Sure, it's working with black boxes, but if you just.. abstract the black box into a parameter you get a pure box that works with any black boxes as long as they function within specifications :)

I don't think this is an 'engineers are always better than programmers' war. However, there are questions that someone from a legitimate engineering background are better equipped to handle, while there are others that those from a legitimate CS background are better equipped to handle. The engineer will be able to find holes in the software requirements where the answer doesn't map correctly to reality, but the Computer Scientist will take those requirements and produce better code.

The problem is each group representing themselves as the other. Engineers need to not claim 'I can program' in response to a job that is developing multi-threaded crypto (unless they have specific training in the fields), just as programmers need to not claim 'I am an engineer' in response to development that extends beyond the software realm (again, barring specific training). But more generally, Engineers need to program within their expertise, software designers need to know when they can't determine if their requirements make sense.

Re:Call wikipedia

[Bakkster]

Just as importantly Pavg=(Vrms)^2/R and similarly Pavg = (Irms)^2R

This is at least in electronics why rms is preferable to the mean of the modulus.

Put another way, the RMS quantifies how much more power a square wave carries than a sine wave, which in turn carries more than a sawtooth wave. It also allows one to see the power of an arbitrary waveform at a glance.

Re:Call wikipedia

[smash]

actually no, he hired a codemonkey from bigworld to make that decision for him.

Re:Call wikipedia

[the eric conspiracy]

Yup, and with software being used more and more in critical applications like controlling your gas pedal response and measuring airliner airspeed we are going to see many more examples of programs "crashing".

CEOs are better people than we are

[QuoteMstr]

A CEO may pay what His he wishes to His employees and take what He wants.
By His accumulation wealth, a CEO has demonstrated His worldly talent and divine favor. Far be it for us to criticize His actions: are we yet men, while He has a golden MBA? While we merely use our power of Speech, does the CEO not expand the language with outflowing of His prodigious mind? Does that not giveth unto him wisdom we know not, and authority we dare not assert?

We should open our hearts to the CEO. We shall work for Him all our waking hours and offer unto him our wives and daughters for His amusement: for we should be honored to have a radiant Being in our lives as the prime-most consideration.

Should we Fail, we deserve whatever punishment the CEO shall mete out for He, as he so frequently reminds us, is infallible. If a CEO's Company should fail, it is our fault for being indolent, and we shall bear that around our necks. All the remaining resources of a failed Company will go to its CEO as compensation for even attempting to deal with filty being like ourselves. Amen.

Re:CEOs are better people than we are

[Anonymous Coward]

Your words bespeak of such a wisdom as can only have handed down by He himself! Oh blessed Profit! Thanks be to thee for spreading the divine word. We are truly the wretched and unclean and yet rejoice in the knowledge that He cares so much that He, through You, enlighten our darkness!

Re:CEOs are better people than we are

[KDR_11k]

You can talk like that when we nail a CEO to a cross.

Re:CEOs are better people than we are

[Anonymous Coward]

Why kill a tree when it just takes a bullet?

Re:CEOs are better people than we are

[NormalVisual]

Your ideas are intriguing to me, and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter...

Re:CEOs are better people than we are

[MMC Monster]

Why stop at one?

Re:CEOs are better people than we are

[Jedi Alec]

Because there's bound to be a company that produces crosses and once we crucify *their* CEO we'd get stuck in a recursive loop as the invisible hand of the free market pops out more and more new companies to produce crosses to meet the demand.

Re:CEOs are better people than we are

[rsborg]

Do you by chance belong to the organization known as The Family?

Re:CEOs are better people than we are

[Kvasio]

You don't need so many crosses; usually you could reuse one after just a few hours.

Re:CEOs are better people than we are

[KDR_11k]

The fun part of crucifixion is that it actually takes days for the subject to die.

Making it tough for the rest of us

[Anonymous Coward]

This particular company was set up by some rather sneaky people who abused the good faith of the workers who put their effort in till the end in an unpaid fashion. Now they've left after breaking a bounty of tax/superannuation laws which leaves not only a trail of illegality but also financial liabilities to the workers which the government coffers will be (it's legislated to do so, not just a possibility) paying out for.

Thanks to this, the fledgling industry in Perth is going to be given even less assistance and opportunities from the government. As somebody living in the city who wants a stepping stone into the 'real deal' areas of the industry, it'll be very hard to transition from student to engine programmer over the next few years..

Basically, fuck Interzone management

Not nice.

[bbqsrc]

If this isn't fraud, I'm sure the government will be on their asses about the lack of payment of their workers.

Re:Not nice.

[TapeCutter]

He has committed tax fraud, the taxman is first in the line of creditors and has an extradition treaty with the Irish taxman. He will wake up one day in the very near future to find his bank accounts frozen.

The employees are the last in line when it comes to the creditors of a defunct company, once the taxman and banks have split up what's left the employees will get fuck all. The best the employees can hope for is seeing the prick behind bars which IMHO is a very likely outcome.

Re:Not nice.

[Barny]

Actually....

First is the employees super funds, then taxes, then wages, then everyone else they owe money to.

The employees are covered for loss of wages by the GEERS scheme, which they can submit and get their: Lost wages; Lost holiday pay; Redundancy payout (according to industry standards or their contract, and if contract its subject to evaluation).

According to Australian law anyway :)

Re:Not nice.

[JSBiff]

"He will wake up one day in the very near future to find his bank accounts frozen."

I hope they don't get around to this until after the game has been sold and makes a few million currency, so there is actually something for the scammers to lose, and for the tax office, employees and creditors to be compensated with. Of course, there's no guarantee the game will be bought by anyone or make any money, but if they wait to sieze assets and arrest these guys, and the game doesn't make any revenue, well, the creditors and employees haven't really lost anything. You can always arrest the people behind this later - at least let them think they've gotten away with it, and get the product to market, then go in for the big score (if there is one).

Re:Not nice.

[initialE]

And in any case it's hopeful they get their IP back. Cuz it's important, right?

Re:Not nice.

[TapeCutter]

I stand corrected, apparently the scheme was brought in by the Howard government and I was using outdated personal anecdote. My brother-in-law lost ~$10K when the panel beaters he was working for in the 90's went tits up. Part of that $10K was super that had not been paid for almost a year. The bank came in and auctioned all the equipment in the shop, the employees saw none of the proceeds.

Thanks for the education. :)

Re:Not nice.

[BrokenHalo]

The employees are covered for loss of wages by the GEERS scheme

Good luck with that. The Government's own figures tell us that only 54 per cent of claims are processed within 16 weeks, and that there are big shortfalls in the actual payments made. Nice try.

Re:Not nice.

[NormalVisual]

The employees are covered for loss of wages by the GEERS scheme, which they can submit and get their: Lost wages; Lost holiday pay; Redundancy payout (according to industry standards or their contract, and if contract its subject to evaluation).

Here in the US, we don't even get a subsidy for the KY jelly to make it a little more comfortable.

Re:Not nice.

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually....

First is the employees super funds, then taxes, then wages, then everyone else they owe money to.

The employees are covered for loss of wages by the GEERS scheme, which they can submit and get their: Lost wages; Lost holiday pay; Redundancy payout (according to industry standards or their contract, and if contract its subject to evaluation).

According to Australian law anyway :)

For what it's worth, this is essentially the same in the US (and probably most other western spots). Not sure if the taxman is ahead of employees or not, but banks are behind the employees. And any other sort of creditor is generally going to be behind all of that, which means they tend to get very little or nothing. In many jurisdictions letting your payroll account dip down to the point where checks start to bounce is cause for both civil and criminal actions.

This interzone guy shouldn't see the outside of a cell for 15 years, if the Irish/Auzzie governments handle it sanely.

Re:Not nice.

[phantomcircuit]

Yeah but the money is no longer in Australia. In fact there is no money, just IP, so good luck to the employees, but they're screwed.

Re:Not nice.

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually....

Having just studied some law on Receiverships and Administration in Australia, the basic order is:
    1. the Liquidators (they are first, otherwise no company would take on such risky work to ensure everyone else gets paid with what is left)
    2. Secured Creditors (e.g. banks with a mortgage secured over land, or a loan secured over the office equipment for example). The secured asset is sold and any money made from that is applied against the debt. If the debt is not paid off in full, the remainder becomes an unsecured debt.
    3. Employee benefits, including salary/wages, superannuation, holiday pay and redundancy pay
    4. Unsecured debts (e.g. general loans, bank overdrafts), which includes taxes payable to the Crown (any level of government)
    5. Shareholders

In your example above, it looks like management had taken out a loan of some sorts, and used all the shop equipment as security, hence, the bank got first dibs on the proceeds of that sale, before remaining money was applied to debts lower down the chain.

Re:Not nice.

[Barny]

I only knew about it because I recently got a GEERS payout myself, yes they are under a heavy workload, but as long as your insolvency practitioner is doing his job it will get done reasonably quick.

Re:Not nice.

[Barny]

That's why I mentioned GEERS, they will pay you your entitlement.

Sane government at work :)

Re:Not nice.

[makomk]

Having just studied some law on Receiverships and Administration in Australia, the basic order is:
        1. the Liquidators (they are first, otherwise no company would take on such risky work to ensure everyone else gets paid with what is left)

The same is true in the UK. The trouble is, that means that (for example) there have been problems with banks forcing companies that could go on trading into bankruptcy by terminating their loans or blocking a sale of the company as a going concern so that their liquidation arm can make lots of money on liquidating the company.

mod parent up

[Anonymous Coward]

mod parent up

A previous quote seen here on slashdot

[eclectro]

"He just made a copy, nothing was lost. It's not stealing."

Re:A previous quote seen here on slashdot

[Ja'Achan]

"entered [...] and removed"

Yes, something was lost.

Re:A previous quote seen here on slashdot

[fractoid]

Actually what he did is more along the lines of writing a cheque to Amazon for a CD they sell. Then sneaking into their offices at night, bullshitting the police into thinking you work for Amazon even though you don't, burning yourself a copy of the CD you bought, bullshitting the property owner into issuing an (illegal) order to all Amazon staff barring them from the city block around their building, and then flying home with your burned CD.

And then the cheque bounces.

Re:A previous quote seen here on slashdot

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, did he just make a copy? Sounds more like he stole servers.

Re:A previous quote seen here on slashdot

[vadim_t]

Actually, the way I see it, the quote is completely right, even in this case.

The "IP" is irrelevant. The employees are owed for the time they worked, and nothing more. Even if you believe there is such a thing as "IP", the employees agreed it belongs to the company when they signed the contract, so it can't be "stolen" from them.

Having the CEO fire everybody and have another team continue development would have been perfectly legal. The only illegal thing is not paying the previous employees all they were owed.

Re:A previous quote seen here on slashdot

[slarrg]

In addition, he intends to sell copies of this CD.

Re:A previous quote seen here on slashdot

[Anonymous Coward]

He took out the servers, that's not copying.

Re:A previous quote seen here on slashdot

[Zontar The Mindless]

The only illegal thing is not paying the previous employees and the Australian Government all they were owed.

TFTFY.

Re:A previous quote seen here on slashdot

[toriver]

... but if what the programmers and designers make is not a creative work but simply a work-for-hire industry product, how can copyright laws apply? They are there to protect artists and creators, not industry corporations.

Re:A previous quote seen here on slashdot

[vadim_t]

I'm a programmer and what I do is work for hire. You pay me X/hour, I spend that time solving the problem you have.

Usually that hour is spent writing code, but sometimes that hour is spent on research that results in "Yes, we could do this, and here's how", or "No, it's not going to work for this reason".

What happens to what I wrote doesn't really matter to me, so long I got paid for the time.

I still think it's a creative endeavour anyway, in the same way that a decorator being paid for "come here and tell me how to make this prettier" isn't exactly performing an assembly line job.

They are there to protect artists and creators, not industry corporations.

Hah. If that were true, copyright wouldn't work the way it does. To start with, if copyright was really about the artist it wouldn't be transferrable.

Re:A previous quote seen here on slashdot

[ScentCone]

To start with, if copyright was really about the artist it wouldn't be transferrable.

How is it not about the artist if transferring those rights is what artist wants?

Re:A previous quote seen here on slashdot

[mr exploiter]

I know this is offtopic but even if he only copied the IP and runned from the country... why no this could be a worse crime that stealing? I think this is some kink of obsession with the word "stealing", after all, it's clearly not the worst crime one can do: "murder" "rape" "torture" are clearly worse.

Anyway, I don't think not all cases of IP infringement are the same. Copying one CD can cause at the most a damage to the copyright holder equal to the CD cost. Copying the source code from a product and using that to establish a competing company can cause enormous damage.

Re:A previous quote seen here on slashdot

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, the way I see it, the quote is completely right, even in this case.

The "IP" is irrelevant. The employees are owed for the time they worked, and nothing more..

Yes, and if you try and pull a stunt like that on when you're having an automobile repaired, you'll discover what a Mechanic's Lien is.

Re:A previous quote seen here on slashdot

[vadim_t]

Because then the creation can get used against the artist, and I can't see how would that be something the artist wants. Take for instance the ridiculousness of "Prince" being a trademark not owned by Prince, and him being denied use of it, despite it being his real name.

Also, generally there's not a negotiation happening on equal terms. The huge conglomerate has an advantage over the artist, so I think they should be restricted in what they can ask. There's a reason why you can't enslave yourself, or sell your children through a contract.

I think that it should be possible to *grant* rights, going as far as granting enough rights that somebody could do as if they owned the copyright, but never actually transferring, so it's impossible to lose the rights to something you created.

Re:A previous quote seen here on slashdot

[ScentCone]

the creation can get used against the artist

Only if the artist agrees to a contract that allows for such things. Why do that?

Take for instance the ridiculousness of "Prince" being a trademark not owned by Prince, and him being denied use of it, despite it being his real name.

A great example of a poorly structured business relationship. That's not his full, legal name. It's his brand, just like a band name. He agreed to take a pile of cash in exchange for allowing a publishing company to operate that brand name. Turns out he was more interested in the short term cash than he was in his own long-term prospects. Typical amateur maneuver.

Also, generally there's not a negotiation happening on equal terms.

Of course. That's because there are very, very few people with enough talent and obvious prospects to be completely in charge of such negotiations. The publishing company has a definite, real, tangible things (cash, and the business operations to invest in promoting and working with an artist), while the artist has the potential to be of sustained interest to a paying audience - not a sure thing at all. So the person with the most to risk (the label) has the stronger negotiating position. This is hardly peculiar to the music industry. It's just as true when you're buying cantelope or thinking of hiring a landscape designer.

I think that it should be possible to *grant* rights, going as far as granting enough rights that somebody could do as if they owned the copyright, but never actually transferring, so it's impossible to lose the rights to something you created.

That's called "licensing," and it's done all the time. But because many artists would rather have more money, they might be willing to transfer rights. Others, who know they have more to offer to their audiences, may decide to retain more control, but not initially accept as much cash. It's a judgement call, and the artist can do it however they like. Photographers, graphic artists, and a million other professional people make exactly the same sorts of decisions all the time.

Doing creative work "for hire" is simply a different relationship than licensing or assigning rights. All of those are legitimate, sensible relationships for different people under different circumstances. This is why musicians and other artists need to actually read and understand case studies before putting their name on a contract. If they're too dumb, or too fixated on bling and MTV to understand the consequences, then it's hard to care what they think, or feel sorry for them. They're probably also the type to rack up credit cards at high interest rates, make poor leasing decisions on cars, etc. Nobody is forcing someone to get into a relationship with a publisher. Artists do it because they don't want to run their own publishing company while they're busy trying to also be an artist. But it's no surprise that a lot of older, wiser artists actually form their own labels and sign younger artists - because they've learned the ropes.

Re:A previous quote seen here on slashdot

[shentino]

Absconding with seizable property is definitely a dick move.

Re:A previous quote seen here on slashdot

[vadim_t]

A great example of a poorly structured business relationship. That's not his full, legal name.

No, it's actually his name. He was born as Prince Rogers Nelson.

It's his brand, just like a band name. He agreed to take a pile of cash in exchange for allowing a publishing company to operate that brand name. Turns out he was more interested in the short term cash than he was in his own long-term prospects. Typical amateur maneuver.

This, and what's below is a perfect explanation why the current laws don't favour the artist.

They favour those who are the most informed about the legal intrincacies, and have the biggest advantage in the relationship. That could be the artist, if we're talking about a famous and rich one who has it all figured out, and whose name on something carries prestige, but usually isn't.

Re:A previous quote seen here on slashdot

[Anonymous Coward]

Sure, but the same contract that states this, is made void at the very moment that the contract(ee) fails to pay the contract(or).

Hence, the contract is void. The contractor is free to claim whatever damages they wish if the contractee has voided the contract.

Re:A previous quote seen here on slashdot

[Anonymous Coward]

It isn't transferrable here (Austria).

Re:A previous quote seen here on slashdot

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not stealing, It's copyright infringement.

Re:A previous quote seen here on slashdot

[ScentCone]

No, it's actually his name. He was born as Prince Rogers Nelson

What you mean is, it's actually his first name. Just like it's the first name of a lot of other people. He made a business decision to start taking money while performing using only his first name. It's not any different than the band Bon Jovi ... doing business using part of the name of one member. Regardless, it's up to the artist to decide whether to sign something.

They favour those who are the most informed about the legal intrincacies, and have the biggest advantage in the relationship

So, you're saying that most artists can't read, or can't be bothered to ask a representative to exchange their expertise for some of the cash they're about receive? We're not talking bar bands, here. We're talking about people who are considering a relationship with a large company because both parties think there's the prospect of making a lot of money. You're feeling sorry for the party that can't be bothered to read something put in front of them? How about the other party, who commit to funding recording, marketing, etc., and find (of course) that the vast majority of the talent they sign utterly fail to produce anything memorable or saleable? Very, very few artists can possibly produce something that even comes close to covering the costs that the label risks when they take them on.

Re:A previous quote seen here on slashdot

[vadim_t]

What you mean is, it's actually his first name. Just like it's the first name of a lot of other people.

Precisely one of the reasons why I think the whole event should have been impossible. A normal first name should be only an identifier, not subject to any sort of ownership or licensing.

You're feeling sorry for the party that can't be bothered to read something put in front of them?

No, you're not reading the discussion.

toriver said "[...] how can copyright laws apply? They are there to protect artists and creators, not industry corporations". I pointed out that the current copyright laws don't favour the artist, they favour the corportations most of the time. You're merely providing more evidence of that, and saying that it's the right way for them to be, because not reading a contract properly is a stupid thing to do.

I'm saying that for copyright law to really be something that intends to protect the artist it should be biased to favour the artist at the cost of the company. This is not a particularly strange thing. For instance you can't legally sell yourself into slavery by not reading a contract. This is biased in the weakest party's favour, if it was a legal thing to do, it wouldn't be the huge corporations that'd get hit with it.

I'm not having an argument though, because I'm not arguing in favour in any of both positions, I'm just saying what would things be like if it was really something for the artists.

My own opinion is neither of those. I'd heavily restrict copyright to favour the society over both the companies and the author.

Re:A previous quote seen here on slashdot

[mr exploiter]

Are you kidding me? I agree with that.

Re:A previous quote seen here on slashdot

[stephanruby]

Sorry man, when there is a bankruptcy, the unpaid employees and bond holders are the first in line and the business owners/equity holders are second. The CEO may not have stolen directly from the employees, but at the very least he did steal from the company. The company may not have been placed in bankruptcy yet, but that doesn't matter, just like it's a crime to write a check to yourself when you know your bank account is empty, it's also a crime to pull out the collateral from a company before a bankruptcy judge gets to it.

The employees are owed for the time they worked, and nothing more.

The employees are owed, depending on the jurisdiction they're in, their back-pay, (possibly) severance, interests, and also possibly punitive damages. Except now, instead of the corporate entity being liable for it, the CEO (through his criminal actions) is personally liable for it. If I were the employees, I would be scouring the World for any personal Real Estate the CEO or his wife have attached to their names (just in case there is any).

Re:A previous quote seen here on slashdot

[vadim_t]

Sorry for what? It doesn't change anything I said.

I was replying to the idea of that there's something wrong with "He just made a copy, nothing was lost. It's not stealing".

And, in this case indeed nothing that falls under the idea of "IP" was lost, whether you believe that "IP" is something that should exist or not. If it exists, you as an employee signed a contract agreeing that all of it belongs to the company. It can't be stolen from you because it's not your in the first place. And if you don't believe in it, then something that doesn't exist can't be stolen from you either.

Sure, crimes were committed here, but none of them have anything to do with copyright.

Re:A previous quote seen here on slashdot

[ScentCone]

I pointed out that the current copyright laws don't favour the artist, they favour the corportations most of the time

Sorry, no. The copyright doesn't just favor the artist, it absolutely, 100% protects the artist and only the artist. Until or if, that is, the artist decides to take deliberate, personal action to assign those rights to someone else. There is nothing in copyright law that in any way (except for the passage of time after the death of the artist) provides any part of the artist's copyrighted works to be under the control of someone else. The only exception would be "fair use" reproductions, and that's a completely separate discussion.

The only reason that artists can be in the position to negotiate for cash in exchange for copyrighted material is because the copyright law is so strongly in their favor.

Re:A previous quote seen here on slashdot

[vadim_t]

Sorry, no. The copyright doesn't just favor the artist, it absolutely, 100% protects the artist and only the artist.

In theory. In practice, sign up for a programming job, and now the protection is for your employer. Sign up with a label, and the protection moves to the label. And so on.

If you want to keep that protection, you need to pretty much replace your employer, by running your own software company, label, etc. And few people have the resources to do that. And, if the alternative to selling your rights to a label is becoming one, that IMO indicates pretty clearly that things aren't really geared towards the independent artist.

The only reason that artists can be in the position to negotiate for cash in exchange for copyrighted material is because the copyright law is so strongly in their favor.

Huh? No, that's just the barely minimum reasonable situation to be in: to be able to negotiate payment. I don't see how you could even have any less than this.

If things were really set to favour the artist, the artist would have the record company by the balls and not the other way, and would be able to for instance, at any time pack and leave without penalty, and sell their stuff through a company they liked better.

Re:A previous quote seen here on slashdot

[ScentCone]

You are confusing the normal disadvantge (in any business relationship) one has in being naive and inexperienced. It's got nothing whatsoever to do with copyright law, and everything to do with the inability of an ignorant (or lazy) person to see the big picture and think about consequences. It's exactly the same set of issues that come into play when people buy a car, or sign up for a two-year mobile phone contract. Each party has something the other wants. Foolish, lazy, or naive people will rarely have the skills or interest in choosing the right deal for themselves. Don't conflate intellectual weakness or lack of business savvy with being a copyright holder - you're confusing correlation and causation.

Re:A previous quote seen here on slashdot

[JackieBrown]

And the employees should release their "copies" online.

Dr Siktastik

[Anonymous Coward]

It's a real shame the way he left, however Australia’s extradition agreements with the US and Ireland are in good shape and the ATO is quite unrelenting. It will take time but I would expect to see this guy come to justice.

It does make a lot of sense however (moving the company), Irelands corporate tax rates are below 1/2 what Australia’s are. Aussie politicians always say what a great place Australia is to do business but globally, for anything but mining it's very uncompetitive.

Re:Dr Siktastik

[Anonymous Coward]

I have some Irish neighbors and they say they moved here because of Ireland's lack of opportunities. Seems Ireland forgot the type of companies that you attract when you move the tax burden from companies to citizens. They were all happy about the new tech campuses that sprung up and then they all suffered as those companies moved away, in the blink of an eye, to some other country for another 1/2 point off their taxes.

"Investment credits", "business incentives", call them what you want. It's all just a race to the bottom.

Why he gets away with it...

[Anonymous Coward]

(Assuming it's true) because people like this assume that most people are logical and aren't going to go postal on them so they can just walk in an do what they like. That's the price of civilization, you can bet he wouldnt've raided the office like this or cheated workers ouf of salaries if workers had reputations of smashing skulls in with bats.

Re:Why he gets away with it...

[Anonymous Coward]

Concur.

Did you watch the part where he says "I'm the only one who is permitted to be here and you're all trespassing... so I'm asking you to leave or I'm going to call the police." ?

That's when they should have said "Maybe you should call an ambulance too mate.", then pull the fire extinguisher off the wall behind him and hit him in the head with it several times.

Re:Why he gets away with it...

[mjwx]

(Assuming it's true) because people like this assume that most people are logical and aren't going to go postal on them so they can just walk in an do what they like. That's the price of civilization, you can bet he wouldnt've raided the office like this or cheated workers ouf of salaries if workers had reputations of smashing skulls in with bats.

And getting a standby flight to Singapore or Kuala Lumpur all of two hours after you've done your ingenious, secret removal of IP is so incredibly difficult (lets not even consider how hard it would be if he were willing to pay a premium).

I'll hit you with the clue by four about Perth, Western Australia. It's cheaper and easier to get out of this country from Perth then it is to get a flight to Sydney or Melbourne from Perth. This arsehole would have been safely on a Singapore Airlines flight from SIN to LAX before anyone in Perth had even woken up. Such is the price you pay for modern civilisation. A fat lot of good bats will do over the Pacific.

BTW we play Cricket over here not Baseball, Cricket bats are noticeably larger and heavier then baseball and result in far greater injuries.
BTW x2, Perth's international Airport is less then 30 minutes drive from Perth's city centre.
BTW x3, flight time from Perth (PER) to Singapore (SIN) is four and a half hours.

As others have said, the Tax Office will get this guy. Forget the AFP (Australian Federal Police) or ASIO (Australian Security Intelligence Organisation), if you cross the ATO (Australian Tax Office) you're in for a world of hurt, they are relentless and remorseless.

Re:Why he gets away with it...

[Anonymous Coward]

Did you watch the part where he says "I'm the only one who is permitted to be here and you're all trespassing... so I'm asking you to leave or I'm going to call the police." ? That's when they should have said "Maybe you should call an ambulance too mate."

Maybe they cut the part where they "escort" him to their own car-- the one with the duct tape and bag of quicklime stashed in it?

Re:Why he gets away with it...

[Macfox]

if you cross the ATO (Australian Tax Office) you're in for a world of hurt, they are relentless and remorseless.

That's hardly the case. There's a few high profiled cases, the ATO brags about, but the reality is much different. CEO's like this guy are too small to bother about, unless he's burned some wealthy creditor, who will make a noise.

I've been involved in two Australian based start-ups and the CEO's/directors that skipped overseas with IP, fistfuls of investor cash and huge debts are quite happily living abroad. They even visit and live in Australia for extend periods without the fear of the ATO.

Internet hate campaign

[Anonymous Coward]

There are times when internet hate campaigns get well out of hand, and end up causing huge amounts of trouble for people over trivial or non-existent issues.

This is not one of those times... Take it away, internet...

What asses

[bumfuckedegypt]

Bad enough that they shut down but to knowingly continuing to do business and screwing the employees like that. I mean damn...who the hell would want to work for them now.

Re:What asses

[mike2R]

If your unemployed, got a mortgage to service, kids to feed... You get the picture.

Re:What asses

[auLucifer]

But the staff weren't being paid so as the gp said "who the hell would want to work for them now?"

Re:What asses

[Anonymous Coward]

My unemployed? I don't understand. Where is the verb?

Paybacks are a b1tch

[Anonymous Coward]

So as soon as this jerk sets up shop in Ireland let's DDoS his ass. I'm sure they are folks much more crafty than I who can whip up a devil's brew of Internet mayhem on his fat ass.

smart employees?

[Anonymous Coward]

I hate to say it, but how smart are you if you're working for zip for MONTHS? People screw their spouse for less, so why put so much trust in your employer?

What the...

[Arancaytar]

Is this sort of thing legal?

Oh wait. Yeah, I guess not.

Re:What the...

[jonadab]

If it were legal, he wouldn't have been doing it in the middle of the night. The company could have just locked the employees out and done whatever they wanted in broad daylight. Plenty of companies have been known to do that sort of thing when shutting down a location.

I mean, this is a CEO we're talking about. Those guys normally work 9-5, officially, on paper, and in practice this turns into more like 10-4, except on days when they're out of the office for "meetings" with other CEOs on the golf course. Working in the middle of the night is NOT part of the general modus operandi.

So yeah, if he was slipping in during the wee hours, there's a reason.

Re:What the...

[BrokenHalo]

Is this sort of thing legal? Oh wait. Yeah, I guess not.

In one of the supplied links (video clip) there is a police car in the background. Given that the plods didn't lift a finger to stop this guy, that says everything we need to know about the state of our legal system.

Re:What the...

[karnal]

I can tell you personally that the large company CEOs don't work "10-4" - more like 24x7.... the job is their life.

So much so that I know one that has a Plasma in his staff meeting room for when he's in on weekends to watch while working because he's ALWAYS at work.

Sounds to me like this "CEO" is just someone who's also a con-man.

Re:What the...

[Anonymous Coward]

The CEO of the local health board, who has several hundred employees, is paid more than $300,000 a year for his job. He only works 13 hours a week. 'nuff said.

Re:What the...

[JackieBrown]

Wow, I never thought I would read this argument on slashdot.

So you are saying the police should have questioned him despite not knowing a crime was occurring?

Where would you like the line drawn for this precedent?

Re:What the...

[BrokenHalo]

You are apparently not up to speed with policing laws here in Western Australia. Police have the powers to stop, search and question anyone.

Re:What the...

[smash]

more like, the state of the wa police force. if you're not speeding or doing a burnout, they don't give a fuck.

Re:What the...

[karnal]

Several hundred employees is not a large company.

There is much more to this than the Summary states

[Anonymous Coward]

Interzone owns the Australia Tax Office (ATO) approximately $1m AUD and $500k in unpaid wages and superannuation. The owner changed the locks on the firm at 4am in the morning, locking all employees out from their work. Not even given a chance to collect their personal belongings. A new 'Interzone' called Big Collision is being setup in Dublin Ireland to complete development of their game Futebol in time for the World Cup, and without the debt they have accumulated in Australia. Originally Interzone was given a grant by the Western Australian goverment of $500k, so this has blown up very big on the news there, causing quite some political issues and questions of the chief Treasurer. They did not even lay off the staff, as that would of caused paper work, and the paying out of their due wages and redundancy money. They were simple locked out from their building.
The firm that provides the middleware (BigWorld) based in Sydney, provided a server engineer (contracted by Mike to clear out the IP assets from the server.)

The Interzone employees have been fantastic, in collecting evidence, and staying together to fight for what they are due.

This is not the first time this has occured in Australia, similar shit has happened in the last year with firms Transmission, and Fuzzyeyes. Video games, one of the last places for cow-boy businessmen.

For people who would like to read more on this, check these links:
http://www.tsumea.com/australasia/australia/news/120210/interzone-games-perth-closes-staff-locked-out
http://www.kotaku.com.au/2010/02/wa-dev-interzone-games-close-to-liquidation/
http://www.kotaku.com.au/2010/02/interzone-ceo-marty-brickey-responds/
And this video where the employees confront one of the directors http://vimeo.com/9574704

Trading while insolvent.

[deniable]

If this guy is a director and knowingly traded while insolvent / unable to pay the bills, he's looking at five years in prison. Once ASIC gets done, the ATO will start looking at tax issues. This guy is going to be a bureaucrat chew toy.

Re:Trading while insolvent.

[Anonymous Coward]

ASIC were fully aware what was going on. I'm afriad to tell you as an Australian citizen who BEGGED ASIC to take action, that ASIC are a bunch of pussies and toothless tigers.

John Howard and the former Liberal Government watered down ASIC's powers to the point that they are nothing more than a wasteful public entity paying lip service - they only care about the "big fish" that they cannot ignore (due to press coverage), and as recent media coverage over the last six months has shown, they can't even catch people like One.Tel and Firepower.

ASIC is a toothless tiger. Tell your MP.

That's the only way things will change.

Re:Trading while insolvent.

[Anonymous Coward]

The reality is, so few businesses that fold are pursued for insolvent trading when many of them are seemingly guilty of sometimes extremely brash offenses. We're talking Gyms taking memberships up to COB on Friday and being gone on the Monday type of violation. Nintek, another computer company from Perth spent a very long time taking people's money, giving constant excuses for long months without shipping many orders. At some point, it's practical to say that they knew they were going down, but because nothing can be proven, ie, when they knew they were insolvent these things rarely see the courts. As seems customary, the end is a quick grab of the final assets, don't tell the employees anything thing.

A previous irrelevant quote

[mdwh2]

Er, no, RTFS - he removed the servers.

This is the one time that referring to "IP theft" actually makes sense. He stole it, removing the original rather than duplicating.

Do people who commit piracy do so by going to the record companies at night, sneaking in, and removing their CDs?

Anyhow, where does anyone accuse him of stealing? Or are you just making up a straw man?

Re:A previous irrelevant quote

[eclectro]

Look at the youtube video. It specifically alleges file copying, and does not mention machine theft at all. Why would you need to take servers when all you would need to do is stick the source files on a thumb drive?

There seems to be conflicting stories about the server theft.

Re:A previous irrelevant quote

[Anonymous Coward]

Just to confirm, they copied the information onto a laptop from within the data center in the Perth office. We believe the servers are still there but cannot check because they changed the locks in the middle of the night as well (servers are too expensive to ship + the risk of losing data in transit).

Re:A previous irrelevant quote

[mdwh2]

In that case there's a dispute about what happened. But I don't see what that has to do with your quote - where is anyone claiming that copying files constitutes theft?

Re:A previous irrelevant quote

[Anonymous Coward]

I think I will take the Linux source code, apply it to my personal OS and slap some advertisements on it to make money. Than I will not share the code at all.

Its not like you guys had anything stolen from you, I just made a copy and you still have yours.

Re:A previous irrelevant quote

[Anonymous Coward]

You're allowed to do that, dumbass, if you distribute the source code when you hand out/sell copies of your personal OS. It's called GPL, and you're legally obligated to follow it.

Whoops, your analogy fell to shit.

Perth

[Anonymous Coward]

The truly shocking thing here is that Perth is in the news.

Most boring city in the world, only good for raising babies and retiring. Heaps of 35yr old women with no men because everybody leaves... like these guys should of and joined a proper American/English/European company.

Hiring Standards?

[djjockey]

Many companies fail. Sometimes, they are able to restructure, change their business, consolidate or relocate and start again. Shit happens sometimes. As long as they've acted in good faith along the way....

However, I can't imagine any company would get away with not paying staff for months. I couldn't afford to work for free, and even if I could... well, I still don't think I would. I'm not saying that staff are responsible... but I can't help but think they were either stupid or brainwashed.

He took more than a copy...

[Anonymous Coward]

> "He just made a copy, nothing was lost. It's not stealing."

That doesn't really apply when you take the computers, too.

Well, what do you know...

[Angostura]

Australia has an extradition agreement with the U.S.

The offences that are extraditable include:

11. Robbery.
12. Burglary; housebreaking or any similar offence.
13. Larceny.
14. Embezzlement.
15. Obtaining any property, money or valuable securities by false pretences or other form of deception.

I suspect this will not end well.

Re:Well, what do you know...

[Zumbs]

Given that the asshole fled to Ireland and started a "new" firm, the interesting question is the extradition agreement between Ireland and Australia. Unfortunately, the link to the Australia-Ireland agreement on this page links to the Australia-Indonesia page ...

Re:Well, what do you know...

[PhrstBrn]

The studio was in Australia, but if you look at their LinkedIn pages, you'll see the CEO and this Mike Turner guy are both from the US.

I don't think these guys moved to Ireland because they moved their Australian studio.

Re:Well, what do you know...

[Hognoxious]

That'll come in useful - if he ever moves there or Ireland gets admitted to the Union.

Re:Well, what do you know...

[Anonymous Coward]

try some of the results in this google search:

site:www.comlaw.gov.au "Extradition (Ireland) Regulations"

http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Awww.comlaw.gov.au+%22Extradition+(Ireland)+Regulations%22

Re:Well, what do you know...

[borcharc]

Australia has an extradition agreement with the U.S.

The offences that are extraditable include:

11. Robbery.
12. Burglary; housebreaking or any similar offence.
13. Larceny.
14. Embezzlement.
15. Obtaining any property, money or valuable securities by false pretences or other form of deception.

I suspect this will not end well.

Sadly for the the employees left in the lurch, I don't see any of the offenses listed as extraditable committed or theft of any kind (IANNL). The head of a company, we will assume with the consent of its share holders, removed it's property from offices that it controlled. The employees have no right to this companies property or a right to dictate their actions except through lawful process.

The employees have a civil claim for their contracted wages, they should pursue those claims, perhaps with the assistance of a competent attorney. I suspect that this internet crybaby routine will only ensure they don't get paid. Frankly they got what they deserved for working without pay and not receiving an equity stake in the company/work. Chasing the CEO with a video camera and the police when they should have called an attorney likely sealed their fate.

This is a old lesson, people fall for it all the time, welcome to the club. The sooner you move on with your life the happier you will be.

What?

[dangitman]

Last week Interzone's (American) CEO entered the building at night and removed all the servers and IP so that Interzone could continue production at a new company they have opened in Ireland. The staff caught him on camera.

As much as I think that Mike Turner is a total scumbag, the linked video doesn't actually show him being caught in the act of removing anything. It does show him to be consistently wearing those crappy white iPod/iPhone earbuds - but while that probably should be a crime, it isn't currently on the books.

Re:What?

[Anonymous Coward]

The FULL video shows him exiting Interzone Perth Offices at around the same time a Police report was filed by employees claiming that there was someone in their building illegally, and this pattern was repeated over several days. The only way that he got away with this was by conitinuing to provide the Police with phony documentation, and quite probably by bribing the building manager of the office, who provided the Police with ammunition to keep employees off the property. It's worth noting that the past TWO building managers of the property in question were indicted for fraud in 2009.

Re:What?

[Anonymous Coward]

phony that he was the CEO of the company that leased the offices?

disgusting ...

[Lazy Jones]

even if he gets away with this, his new employees will probably think twice before working on unpaid wages for so long. Also, a publisher should certainly be wary of someone with such dubious business practices.

Re:disgusting ...

[dcollins]

"even if he gets away with this, his new employees will probably think twice before working on unpaid wages for so long."

As someone with friends in the video game business (formerly worked there myself), I'll say sadly probably not. There's a mixture of misplaced loyalty/heroics/naivete/Stockholm syndrome endemic to workers in that industry.

Re:There is much more to this than the Summary sta

[deniable]

Hate to tell you this, but I haven't seen anything about this in Perth. This is the first I've heard of it. 'Chief Treasurer' as you put it would be the Treasurer, Troy Buswell. He's also Minister for Commerce and the grant likely came from the part of DOIR that now works for him. It's a Commerce matter, not Treasury and Finance, but he's been quiet on both fronts.

So..

[Anonymous Coward]

Why did they work without pay?

Sounds like they did it to themselves.

Who will buy/distribute their game now?

[Anonymous Coward]

I wonder what consequences could be for this Futebol game they're producing. Do they have a distribution deal in place? If not, will they be able to get one after word of what they've done in Australia spreads? If the game does reach the shops, how many people who might have otherwise bought it might decide not to buy it on principle? How many shops might decide not to stock it?

Nice!

[Pedrito]

I'm glad to see a CEO so devoted to getting his game out for the fans. Screw the developers. It's the fans that matter!

Whenever someone says, "as American as apple pie"

[jpallan]

I complete the mental thought with "tax fraud". Really, if you're going to completely destroy everyone's lives because you're cheap, at least be smart and hide the money in Switzerland, kids. It's classier.

Hard Luck

[BlackHawk-666]

Hard luck there for all the people who just got scammed by a run of the mill business asshole. My theory is that they are all lying assholes, each and every one of them, and if you keep that in mind you'll find your dealings with them go much better. Just remind yourself as they speak that every word is carefully selected to make them richer.

Big tip - the day you find your pay hasn't gone into your account is the day you hit jobsearch.com or call your agent and let them know you're looking for paid work.

The business's responsibility is to ensure there is enough cash set aside against bad luck/planning/weather and enough cash flow coming through to ensure projects get completed. It's *their* responsibility, not yours...you write code, or run tests, answer the phones. If they've f*ed up enough to not have the money to even pay the people who write the product, then you have to wonder how else they are screwing up.

Re:Hard Luck

[supremebob]

It's sad that these folks needed to learn this the hard way, but it's important to know that you need to get the hell out of a business that can't meet payroll. Start looking for a new job right away, and make sure to file a claim to the labor relations organization for that jurisdiction if you don't get your back pay in a timely manner. Paying your employees is a top priority and a legal obligation for any business, whether or not they are for-profit or non-profit. (Sad, but I have a friend who got stiffed by a church of all places)

If a company don't have the funds available to pay it's people, they're already screwed. It's only a matter of time before they either close up shop or their creditors shut the place down at that point.

Re:Hard Luck

[mjwx]

It's sad that these folks needed to learn this the hard way,

We are in a recession here, OK, Australia is well and truly into recovery but employers are still using the GFC as an excuse to avoid employing anyone new and keep existing worker scared (reducing wages, expecting more unpaid overtime (Time Off In Lieu (TOIL) wonderful acronym)). Devs have been particularity hit hard by this, had it been two years ago any non-retarded dev would have packed up and left the moment this happened as top dollar was being paid to any absolute retards who knew a little C.

I must admit having to support these retards, the current situation gives me a little schadenfreude.

BTW, I live in Perth, Western Australia.

Re:There is much more to this than the Summary sta

[Genda]

This is not the first time this has occurred in Australia, similar shit has happened in the last year with firms Transmission, and Fuzzyeyes. Video games, one of the last places for cow-boy businessmen.

Actually, I belief this is a misrepresentation... I would argue that these are not "Cow-Boy Businessmen", but "Cow-Dung Businessmen". These fecal administrators, give scum of the earth a bad name. If there was any justice, they'd be plowed into a field so as to provide their only possible positive contribution to society as fertilizer.

I applied for a job there once...

[jonwil]

I applied for a job there once. I am glad I didn't end up with it otherwise there is a good chance I may have ended up in all this mess.

Re:There is much more to this than the Summary sta

[Anonymous Coward]

In point of fact, you are incorrect. On the ABC News Story on the issue, he actually made a comment whereby he said he'd been "watching this company closely. Which is of course, a crock of shit. Many IZ members have been in direct contact with Troy Buswell's office over this issue already. I guess you only watch 7/10/9 eh? ;)

Hang him by the balls...

[blind biker]

for a day or two, and then shoot him in the head. One less psychopath in the world can only be a good thing.

Re:There is much more to this than the Summary sta

[deniable]

Which statement was incorrect? The original post said "so this has blown up very big on the news there" Have you got any more than one ABC story? I was merely pointing out the hyperbole. If this was such a big deal, ACA and TT and the rest of the commercial bottom-feeders would be all over it, especially given that it's foreigners ripping off hard-working Australians.

Australasia

[TapeCutter]

The region is sometimes refered to a Australasia but even here in Oz it's not a well known term, nor has it got anything to do with Asia.

Superinterestingmegalomaniacs

[Kreeben]

Board: "Hey Mike, we're out of money. Take our shit and get out of Dodge!" Mike: "But what about our employees? We owe them and shit." Board: "Fuck'em!" Mike: "Yeah, hell yeah, fuck all them!" Wow, to have been a fly on the wall on that board meeting. Sociopaths are so god damn interesting people.

"takes"

[nurb432]

Well, if hes the CEO, its legally his stuff. The employees work for the company and they don't normally have ownership rights of their work. Happens all the time when companies go under and restructure

Now, bailing out on their salaries, that's uncool and something to get upset over. ( but it also happens when companies go out of business...)

Re:"takes"

[Qzukk]

Well, if hes the CEO, its legally his stuff

Er, no. Unless Aussies have really different ideas about corporations, once the company incorporated, it's no longer "his stuff" it's "the corporation's stuff". If the CEO just sneaks in at night and takes things from the corporation, it's typically called "embezzlement". At least here in the US anyway. Now, if the shareholder board said "hey Mike, go take all the things of value from the company and ship them out of the country to keep the government from seizing it for back taxes and wages" then I guess he's just following orders. I wonder if Australian corporations have limited liability for direct orders to commit fraud?

Re:"takes"

[nurb432]

Considering its a small shop, i was going under the assumption that the CEO has controlling stock if it was a corporation in the first place, since more then likely was the owner before/if it went public.

If it was still a private company, same rules applied anyway so i still say its 'his' to do as he pleases with.

Re:"takes"

[spire3661]

You dont have to have public shareholders to be a CEO.......

Cop made them turn the camera off?

[pacoder]

How was the cop able to force them to turn the camera off? That seems...oh I don't know, evil I guess is the word.

Re:There is much more to this than the Summary sta

[mr exploiter]

I hope the employees kept backups of the code... I hope the employees can form some kind of cooperative (company owned by the employees) and finish the game. I'm sure that the gamming community would support them and buy their version of the game instead of the one made by this dishonest assholes.

Loyalty is paid for in cash.

[Colin Smith]

Always has been, always will be. You need to take a look at history.

The worst case recently though are all the soldiers sent off to Iraq to save America from Weapons of Mass Destruction. Shoulda joined Blackwater, not the army.

 

Re:Loyalty is paid for in cash.

[suomynonAyletamitlU]

As long as by "loyalty" you mean a retardedly small portion of the situations in which loyalty comes into play, yes--to your first point. I'm not even touching the second.

When you don't rat on your friend for a minor mistake because you know they'd be punished beyond their crime, and they don't deserve that, that's loyalty.

When you keep coming back to your religious ideals or leaders every week or whatever, because they give you stability in a world that shits on you, that's loyalty.

When you refuse to spill some dirty secret of a person who's never betrayed you, that's loyalty.

When you treat your parents with care when they're 90+ years old and have become infirm, that's loyalty.

To the GP's point, when a company you work for has variable income, possibly seasonal, possibly market-based, but it or the owner has always come through for you, and you push forward to try to keep them afloat, and they pay you back for your trouble, especially with a bonus--that's loyalty, in both directions.

All of these things happen all the time. I dare say only a tiny fraction of people won't fall into one of the above categories at various times. The idea that mercenariness is the only loyalty shows your character more than your worldliness.

Re:Loyalty is paid for in cash.

[ravenshrike]

Except the vast majority of Blackwater operators(I assume their other employees tend not to be) are already military vets, most of them from various spec ops groups or the marines.

Wanna bet?

[bornagainpenguin]

>>However, I can't imagine any company would get away with not paying staff for months.

Talk to the guys who worked for Be...

--bornagainpenguin

in the us you can go to jail for workers go unpaid

[Joe The Dragon]

In the us you can go to jail for having your workers go unpaid and the IRS will also hunt your down for the unpaid tax.

This CEO needs to do some HARD TIME and not that easy lockup they have in australia.

Nations founded by criminals

[RevWaldo]

What sort of behavior do you expect from nations founded by criminals?
America was founded by the criminals that got away.
Australia was founded by the ones that got caught.

Re:There is much more to this than the Summary sta

[Anonymous Coward]

I do know that the decision was made among employees activley involved in the ordeal that to take it to ACA would be seen as delegitamising and trivialising the episode. The story has also been featured in The West a number of times.

Unfortunately, not much attention is given to games dev, and ABC didn't even air it in their national news report. But for games to even make it into the news and be taken "seriously" ...

Re:There is much more to this than the Summary sta

[shentino]

So not only is he ripping off the taxman but he's stealing the employee's personal property.

Re:There is much more to this than the Summary sta

[initialE]

So how did it turn out at those other firms?

That is bullshit....

[moxley]

Total bullshit. I wonder what would have happened had they physically stopped him? Did this police just buy Mike Turner's bullshit?

I have another suggestion though - and that is for anyone who would want this game to not purchase it. A boycott, along with a piracy campaign - pirate the shit out of it. It;s about time piracy be used for altruistic purposes.

Could they file suit in the US or wherever the parent company is located?

Offsite backups?

[jschen]

In many technology companies (not just software, but also other fields, such as biotech), a company's main value lies in IP. Therefore, IP has to be carefully protected. Where are their offsite backups? This project appears to be a sinking ship anyways (lack of pay should be a hint), but what if they had lost everything in their building (regardless of cause) during a more successful phase? How quickly would they be able to get back up and running?

Re:in the us you can go to jail for workers go unp

[Cimexus]

I assure you you can go to jail for the same things in Australia.

However, we need to extradite him from whereever he's gone first. That takes time.

I had a similar thing happen.

[Anonymous Coward]

I was making a CG animated film for a small toy company out of my house. I had the render farm in my kitchen and the animation and editing equipment in the living room. The render farm was so loud I had to use ear plugs to sleep. A month before the film was to be finished the owner of the toy company entered my house and stole everything including the back up drives. I owned half the film but he forced me to sell out my rights for one cent on the dollar, we had a 2,700 theater release at the time with MGM. He made a couple of payments then stopped. The payments were only about half what I had into the film myself. Now I'm trying to find a lawyer but it looks bleak. My advice "trust no one!" And I wish they allowed all caps for that one! I've got a few facts posted on a temp web site. I'll be updating it later in the week. Right now I'm busying selling everything I own to pay rent. Riches to rags. http://www.fftheuntoldstory.com/

Re:I had a similar thing happen.

[Anonymous Coward]

Try updating the site so it doesn't look like it was made in 1995 and you might catch more attention. The web site is so horribly bad I can't be bothered to read it closely.

"A blog coming soon" - it takes literally ten minutes to throw together a basic Drupal or Wordpress site and maybe another five to install a "skin." Given two hours, you can have an updated web site with a full back end and all of your content posted and neatly organized. Some links to any relevant sites (wikipedia, imdb, the publishing company, etc.) would be helpful as well.

Re:There is much more to this than the Summary sta

[Fnord666]

I hope the employees kept backups of the code... I hope the employees can form some kind of cooperative (company owned by the employees) and finish the game. I'm sure that the gamming community would support them and buy their version of the game instead of the one made by this dishonest assholes.

Let me start by saying that the guy is a douche and needs to go to prison. Having said that, the employees most likely have no right to the code. Anything produced while an employee of the company is most likely the property of the company. He might have to come back to Australia to pursue any legal actions and would most likely be in irons before he cleared the airport, so maybe it will work out after all.

decline of the western "civilization"

[Anonymous Coward]

nuff said

Re:There is much more to this than the Summary sta

[Anonymous Coward]

No, he commented publicly on the ABC news Friday before last. All he said was that they were keeping an eye on this company and hadn't paid them any of the grant money since April last year.

legal

[DaveGod]

This could be mostly legal, the servers may have always been owned by the parent company and leased back to the Australian subsidiary. The IP very likely was also never owned by the Australian firm. If the subsidiary did hold assets I expect the parent company had security over them, so if they had loaned the subsidiary money then in the event of being wound up they take control of the assets. Lying to creditors/employees on the other hand, well there's a mess there but it's probably wrongful trading etc on the part of the subsidiary's directors while the parent's may or may not have known.

It will be up to the administrator to find out if there is anything to be done, and the employees, in their position as creditors, should be applying their pressure on him. The company may have knowingly traded whilst insolvent in which case the directors may be charged with wrongful trading, and potentially be personally liable for debts. The nature of the relationship with the parent company and related transactions may also offer some scope - it's not unheard of for courts to lift the veil and treat parent & subsidiary undertakings as one entity. Furthermore he may well be able to show the parent acted as a shadow director. There is room for some optimism here for two reasons, firstly a "million dollar tax bill" implies profits (though it may be tax on salaries that hasn't been paid over). Secondly the government grant should have all sorts of covenants, you have to be an utterly incompetent complete idiot to grant or loan money to any subsidiary and not enforce appropriate covenants and security over the parent company.

While I sympathise with the employees, there were lots of things they could have done, and given the amounts they should have taken some advice. Sure, in start-ups it's not uncommon for employees to give some leeway and "muck in". But this is a subsidiary! Why do this if there is a parent with money? Secondly, if you're a creditor, act like one. Take a look at the accounts, check for assets and file security over them. Negotiate for some equity - if they had just 20% between them minority protections kick in. An accountant probably would have given them this advice for free if they suggested that some audit fees might be coming their way later on.

Re:legal

[cbreak]

The IP was owned by the emloyees. They created it after all. That CEO had no right to STEAL the products of the hard work of the employees.

slash people

[Anonymous Coward]

please adjust the article to include the new company name and the CEO name and game name - so that this reputation will haunt him globally courtesy of internet search. Moving to a different country isn't the complete reset it once was.

How do you remove intellectual property?

[Anonymous Coward]

How do you remove "IP" by night? "IP?"--like, intellectual property? You could remove code stored on a computer-readable storage medium, and the code could embody ideas that could be protected by IP . . . but "remove IP"? Eh??

Re:How do you remove intellectual property?

[Anonymous Coward]

Did you read TFA?

He took the servers. The IP was on the servers. It has been removed. Not copied.

Geez - read before commenting.

Re:How do you remove intellectual property?

[DragonWriter]

He took the servers. The IP was on the servers. It has been removed. Not copied.

The subjects of intellectual property rights aren't physical entities, (which is why intellectual property is a subtype of intangible personal property), so you can't "remove" IP by moving a physical object.

Corps have no psychology, no morality

[Frankenshteen]

Let's be clear - corporations are run by people. Actions taken by companies are in fact directed by human stakeholders. Many stakeholders see personal gain as the he highest order of business without regard to how the business integrates into society. Stakeholders benefit from the dedication of employees - motivated primarily by the need to remain employed - who sacrifice for the greater good of the corp. Meanwhile, the company is ultimately only interested in margin. The structure itself is inherently flawed when companies are not owned by their workers. Governing a modern corp with some founding principle, spirit or mantra may be a step in the right direction... But seriously; how long before even G abandons it's "do no evil" pledge? What recourse would employees have (unless they are also shareholders with a voice)?

Re:Corps have no psychology, no morality

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not convinced. Groups of people seem to have their own mind apart from any of their members. Sure, a psychopathic corporation needs a psychopath running it to do some of the really questionable things, but it does that by slowly distilling the worst of its members and bringing them on the top.

That distillation is not something the employees itself do but is more of result of the hierarchy and external requirements (shareholder value). If you promote "resulting" into an "act", the concept of a super-mind is not far away.

re: don't work for free

[Anonymous Coward]

the lesson here is don't work without getting paid. i'm sorry, but that's it. if the company can't afford to pay you they aren't going to be in business for long. the exception is if you have an equity stake in the business.

MOD PARENT UP!!!

[TheTyrannyOfForcedRe]

Designing and or building something does not make you an engineer! Is the guy at Quiznos as sandwich engineer because be designs sandwiches? Are you an engineer because you design computer programs? See the similarity?

For the most part CS people have no idea what they're missing versus someone with a real engineering degree. I took classes in both Computer Science and Computer Engineering in college. The CS department was in the College of Sciences. The Computer Engineering department was in the College of Engineering. The two colleges (and their associate programs) could not have been more different. The CS program felt very much like Math or Physics. The CE program felt like EE or MechE. This is not a subtle thing...the differences permeate the students' education from day one!

Re:MOD PARENT UP!!!

[TikiTDO]

Your post includes a false analogy. A guy at Quiznos does not design a sandwich, instead he follows a strict guideline regarding how much of each ingredient to use, how long to keep the sandwich in the oven, how much it costs, and how to interact with the customers.

I mostly agree with the rest of the post. To take it a bit further, the difference, as I see it, is that true engineers design and implement complete systems. Specifically, overarching constructs that are expected to interact with other systems in the real world to accomplish certain tasks. Programmers by contrast are more concerned with accomplishing a specific task, with little interest in the overall system design. So an engineer would be the person planning out how to make something accomplish a specific task, while a programmer will then take the spec, maybe make a few comments, and get it working.

Engineering education is simply much more broad, and teaches you to consider much more of the system that you will be interacting with, from other programs/modules, to the computer, the users, the businesses, and even physical machines. That said, someone that completed a programming curriculum may still do the work required of an engineer. While on paper his title may not be as cool looking, it is a mindset more than anything else.

Re:MOD PARENT UP!!!

[exomondo]

Specifically, overarching constructs that are expected to interact with other systems in the real world to accomplish certain tasks. Programmers by contrast are more concerned with accomplishing a specific task, with little interest in the overall system design. So an engineer would be the person planning out how to make something accomplish a specific task, while a programmer will then take the spec, maybe make a few comments, and get it working.

Which is why there is a distinction between a Programmer - essentially an implementer - and a Software Engineer - which designs the overall system architecture, taking into account how it will interact with external systems and the users. They are also not mutually exclusive.

CEO?

[Anonymous Coward]

Just a pedantic side note: Mike Turner's not the CEO, he's the "VP of Business Development".

IEEE

[raftpeople]

Did you know that IEEE has a produced an ISO standard covering the knowledge required for Software Engineer?

I'm sure that many people are mis-advertising themselves, but you also have a specific definition of what you consider an "Engineer" to be that is narrower than IEEE definitions (I'm referring to this comment: "it is not engineering").

Re:IEEE

[JoshHeitzman]

They aren't mis-advertising themselves if they don't say that certified per that particular ISO standard. IEEE doesn't have a trademark on Software Engineer any more then PE organizations have one on Engineer.

Re:IEEE

[Yevoc]

Yes, this is true: IEEE has recently been very lax in separating programming from engineering, further exacerbating this problem.

It was particularly frustrating when the IEEE consultant group in Silicon Valley morphed over time into a bunch of software experts with almost no engineering knowledge.

That's when I finally decided my Optical Society of America membership was worth renewing over my IEEE membership.

Re:IEEE

[PopeRatzo]

ISO standard or no, to management, a "Software Engineer" is no different than the lady who comes in and cleans the office at night.

You're just one whim away from being tossed in the trash.

I love all these techie libertarians who think they're John Galt, when they're really Apple Annie.

Re:IEEE

[Bakkster]

Yes, this is true: IEEE has recently been very lax in separating programming from engineering, further exacerbating this problem.

As an engineer with both an Electrical and Computer Engineering degree, I would confidently say Software Engineering is an Engineering discipline. Software Engineers clearly approach programming the same way that any engineer approaches any problem, and have the background knowledge to back it up. The issue would be in Computer Science graduates representing themselves as Software Engineers without the necessary training to back that up.

As I read it, it seems that you also made the mistake of asking for 'engineers who can program', when you wanted 'Mechanical, Electrical, or Computer Engineering graduates who can program'. Again, specifically referencing those with a Software Engineering degree, not knowing materials, electronics, or control systems doesn't preclude one from being an engineer. They could have a Civil, Chemical, Biomedical, or (again) Software engineering degree.

Okay easy way

[asamad]

Do what the americans would do sue. Sue in the australian courts for copyright ownership of all the material instead of payment. Then sue him in the US when he goes to use said copyright material in the US, the game will never get published with out redoing all the work !

Never work for free

[Rix]

I have no sympathy for people who do this and get burned; they're just eroding the leverage the rest of us have.

That said, you need not necessarily demand cash. Stock or bonds will also do, at a rate that takes into consideration the risk of the investment. But if you give a floundering employer a free, unsecured loan you're both a moron and an asshole.

Theft?

[Anonymous Coward]

How do you steal what you own?

Let me understand this . . . he is the ceo of a company. The company makes a software product. The CEO decides to take the IP from the staff in Australia, not pay them for the work, not pay the Australian tax man. How is this theft again?

There is tax evasion issues for the Australia government. There are creditor issues for the staff.

The staff owns nothing. The staff, according to the articles, are due payment for their services, but they have no claim on the IP.

As crass as this sounds, the staff, upon learning of the tax issues and not getting paid, should have just left and filed a claim for pay.

Britain multicultural way longer than 3 gens

[fantomas]

Britain has been multicultural way longer than three generations. There's documented evidence of African troops from the Roman Empire serving on Hadrians Wall. There were black folk here before the country was even called England. So the extreme right wing politicians need to be a bit careful when they go on about "immigrants" ;-) (you dumb fools, where do you think your ancestors came from? well, it was overseas....).

Aussies, please keep Pauline Hanson, we don't want her. Such a shame we can't refuse her entry. As the parent says, the only positive side of this is her head's going to explode when she realises the UK is as multicultural if not more so than Australia...

Why was this not tattooed on my forehead at birth?

[jeko]

"Loyalty is paid for in cash."

Ye Gods, where the hell are my mod points? Why doesn't Slashdot have a "+6 Speaking God's Own Truth" rating? If only I had been raised with that Wisdom, rather than the "Screw-me-now, Screw-me-hard, Screw-me-again-later" "the-Boss-may-not-always-be-right-but-he's-still-the-boss-you-should-always-do-your-very-best" nonsense, it would have saved me untold misery.

Our leaders are forcing us all to become mercenary bastards. And my nation is poorer for it.

To my good friends in Australia, speaking on behalf of the U.S., if you ever catch this schmuck, we'd be honored if you'd let us pay for the rope.

Black Friday

[md65536]

Michael: What's all this?
George Sr.: Computer stuff from the office.
Michael: No, no, no, no, pop. You're not doing another one of those Black Fridays, are you? The mass firings?
Narrator: Before firing his employees, George Sr. would be sure to clear the office of its valuables.
Ted: So when do we get to see our fancy new offices?
George Sr.: [closing the truck door] When you get your fancy new jobs. You're all fired.
Narrator: The employees never saw it coming, although their first task was to unload their equipment from a truck.
George Sr.: No, it's not black Friday although I did enjoy those.

Approved?

[andr00oo]

Did he have an approved change request? If not, he's in BIG trouble.

Owing the Tax Dept

[stimpleton]

In New Zealand, the IRD(Inland Revenue) take the view that unpaid wages is unpaid tax to them.

If this occurred in New Zealand, the premises would be under IRD control by lunchtime.

capitalism

[gd2shoe]

Uhm, I'm guessing you're not in the US. You're certainly not in California (which is currently at war against small business).

Fluid Dynamics for Computer Engineers?

[Puff_Of_Hot_Air]

this list actually covers what you'd need to know as a COMPUTER ENGINEER to pass the fundamentals of engineering exam

I was with you until here. My degree was in Computer Engineering, and we were never required to take fluid dynamics (Where is the Z transform in your list? In case you hadn't noticed; our controllers are all discrete since the 70's ;-). Understanding the theory behind the PID controller is something that I would look for). I'm hard pressed to see how fluid dynamics would matter outside of Mechanical Engineering? I agree with your general premise that programmers in the engineering world benifit from engineering knowledge. I work in a company that makes SCADA software, and we have a mix of people from engineering and computer-science backgrounds. Some observations. Engineers can make lousy programmers. Believe it or not, there is lot of programming theory that is important and not taught in an engineering degree. Much of the worst, most unmaintainable code I have ever seen has been written by very good engineers, who simply have no grasp of programming concepts beyond the basic. On the flip side the engineers in our team are invaluble due to their understanding of how the end-user (who are also engineers), needs to use the product to get the job done. Finally, I'd like to say that our most productive coders are guys from pure programming backgrounds. This is not to say that some of the guys from engineering backgrounds are not productive, it just seems to me that there is a particular type of person that is attracted to programming alone and can produce astonishing amounts of quality code in a short period of time. Perhaps the type of person who is attracted to engineering just isn't the conducive to this? In our company, we need the mix (and I like having the mix), but if I were creating some kind of web startup, I wouldn't employ guys with an engineering background.

GEERS (all is not lost)

[Macfox]

I sympathise with the employees. I went through a similar situation in 2007.

GEERS is your friend*, and the liquidator will help you with the information needed to complete your GEERS application. Unfortunately GEERS doesn't cover unpaid super and most companies in these circumstances just fail to pay super and accumulate fines for late super payments rather than the actual amount.

As the law currently stands it very simple for dodgy CEO's to thieve the IP and take operations overseas. The ATO and ASIC are either too slow, bogged down with redtape or just plain toothless.

The sad fact is CEO's/directors don't even need to move overseas. All you need to do is have a parent company overseas that the IP is assigned to. The local company then operates on the smell of an oily rag, runs up liabilities and even gets government RD grants/tax rebates. When creditors/employees come to collect, there's nothing, but a bit of office equipment and furniture. It's even possible to start a new company and then buy the salvaged office assets of the previous company and even trade from the very same office and the ATO and ASIC don't even batter an eye lid.

*As for GEERS and the liquidator, chase them ruthlessly. The department/program is biased to the liquidators findings. If there's incomplete, incorrect or absent employee entitlement records (as is often the case with poorly run companies), GEERS will not pay you a cent, if the liquidator can't provide support or evidence of he amounts. (I found out the hard way and lost 2 years AL)

All the best with your fight.

Post the code on the net

[akayani]

May as well fuck them and post all the code on the net. Use what's been done here to start a company owned here. Questionable what IP they own when people haven't been paid.

Re:There is much more to this than the Summary sta

[gronofer]

Originally Interzone was given a grant by the Western Australian goverment of $500k, so this has blown up very big on the news there,

The Western Australian government deserves what it gets, if it can't figure out how to make its state an attractive place to do business and needs to resort to this kind of payoff.

By Neruos

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't over complicate it.

A programmer is someone who writes code for the machine.
A engineer is someone who creates the machine.
A programming engineer is someone who can do both.

Re:There is much more to this than the Summary sta

[TapeCutter]

"If this was such a big deal, ACA and TT and the rest of the commercial bottom-feeders would be all over it, especially given that it's foreigners ripping off hard-working Australians."

Wether such a story gets the attention of ACA/TT would depend entirely on the political and commercial affiliations of said forigner.

The Take, anyone?

[SplinterOfChaos]

A really good documentary that relates to this situation. The Take.

Re:

[clint999]

Just an added note - I'm not saying I disagree with the rest of your post, but I dislike the dismissive attitude in reference to civil PE's :)

In a sane country (or with some sane workers)

[GravityStar]

In a sane country (or with some sane workers) the worker's union would occupy the offices with the CEO in it. Disconnect water, power, connectivity. And wait while he runs out of toilet-paper. "Do you want to talk about the unpayed wages yet? No? Ok. Here's another McBacon with cheese."

And at the same time getting the court to force the company to bankruptcy and freeze all assets, in order to pay for those wages.

Still, a lot of harm could have been prevented by the employees simply finding the employer in breach of the employment contract when he didn't pay up that first month.

Tough titties?

[rsilvergun]

I notice when a business owner makes off with half a mil in a assets (unpaid wages) it's tough titties but if one of the employees had done the same thing to him the frickin' justice dept extradites his ass and throws him in jail.

They moved to Ireland? Bad move.

[Animats]

The management moved to Ireland? That's a bad place to go bankrupt, and a good place to sue creditors. Ireland still has bankruptcy law left over from the days when English landlords ran the country. Creditors can put a company or an individual into involuntary bankruptcy. There's nothing like "debtor in possession" bankruptcy (US "Chapter 11") in Ireland. Personal bankruptcy? The debtor may retain "such articles of clothing, household furniture, bedding, tools and equipment of his trade or profession or other necessities for himself, his wife, his children, and other dependent relatives living with him, as he may select, not exceeding in value EUR 3,175."

It gets worse. Bankruptcies put individuals on a public blacklist. Officers of companies that go bankrupt can't be officers of a company again. Individuals can't get credit of more than EUR 630.

The employees need to get a judgment in Australia against the CEO, which shouldn't be hard since he fled the country with unpaid employees. Then hire an aggressive collection agency in Dublin. ("100% success rate for many clients. No collection, no fee.") There are international collection agencies, such as Global Credit Solutions, with branches in 80 countries. They have offices in both Australia and Ireland.

Re:There is much more to this than the Summary sta

[Dexter Herbivore]

You do realise that that *is* how governments attract businesses don't you? Tax concessions and development grants are investments that are paid off with extra employment for locals and long term tax dollar returns... at least when the companies deign to pay their tax.

Re:There is much more to this than the Summary sta

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh god, that allegory of a cowboy is actually more of a reality. One boss regularly came into work with a "Yee Haw" t-shirt before sitting down to play Crysis for the rest of the day (and every day, sparing time for the occasional hollow speech).