Two Chinese Schools Reportedly Tied To Online Attacks

Hum. by bbqsrc · 2010-02-20 03:26 · Score: 5, Insightful

I'd like to say I'm shocked by the previous 4 moronic comments, but this is slashdot, so I am not. So they confirm where the attacks came from, where does it go from there? Banning the IP range of those schools from Google services? I somehow doubt they'll find a way to directly pin this on the Chinese government, regardless of if they did it or not.

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Disagree != mod troll.

Re:Hum. by commodore64_love · 2010-02-20 03:49 · Score: 1

They won't do nothing because China will simply tell the US that it won't be borrowing any more money unless it obeys China's wishes.

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"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
Re:Hum. by zappepcs · 2010-02-20 03:56 · Score: 1

Pinning it on the Chinese government in public would be claiming an attack by one government on another's citizens and infrastructure. This would be one of the scenarios that Home Land Security is preparing to defend against. It's presumed that 'terrorists' would be the attackers, but if it turns out the terrorists are Chinese it would shift the direction of momentum for such groups as Homeland Security. With the USA in a semi-permanent state of war against terror, if this is tagged as terrorism, it stands a good chance of crumbling trade agreements to bits. Of course that can't be allowed to happen politically, so the offensive parts of this will be swept under the political rug, and in the worst case situation, China will claim to have punished some errant students. There is far more involved than some IT attacks. Rest assured that business and political interests will ensure that a bit of 'file sharing' won't get in the way of those other interests. So, where do we go from here? not page 1, page 7 of the local section if we're lucky enough to see it in main stream news at all.

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Re:Hum. by Opportunist · 2010-02-20 04:08 · Score: 1

Who knows, maybe the government ain't responsible for it after all?
Let's be honest here, think back to your school years. I dunno about you, but I grew up with the (motion) picture of the evil Russian and the heroic US agents and spies that steal (and steal back) $secret from Russian developers, or sabotage the development of $evil_weapon. I can well imagine that the Chinese movie market pushes out the same kind of propaganda, with US for Russia and China for US.
Now, unlike us who had, at best, analog modems with 900something baud (if that), these kids have fast internet connections at their disposal. Security is actually WORSE than it was in our youth, when the only servers you'd find were by definition pretty secure because they were ran by highly trained professionals (because no ordinary company and certainly no ordinary person could cough up the dough to run one) instead of being set up by idiots that got a crib sheet for setting one up in their evening school class. And let's not even consider the millions of people online who think TCP is the Chinese Secret Service or something like that.
I can see how it could be tempting to a teenager with the tools and the knowledge to go and cause havoc to "that evil power".

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We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Re:Hum. by mjwalshe · 2010-02-20 04:09 · Score: 2, Insightful

so the USA recognises Taiwan and removes most favored status for China, Dont forget China needs its external markets as much if not more than the USA needs China to buy the USA's gilts.
Re:Hum. by Nidi62 · 2010-02-20 04:17 · Score: 1

They don't loan to us, we can't buy their stuff. We don't buy their stuff, they don't grow. Their whole economy is predicated on manufacturing for Western markets.

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The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
Re:Hum. by insufflate10mg · 2010-02-20 04:25 · Score: 1

Name one measurable way they drain society.
Re:Hum. by Opportunist · 2010-02-20 04:31 · Score: 1

China can still sell to Europe. It's not as big a market, but it can tide them over. But where will the US buy? I mean, who's going to sell to them if they already showed they can't pay?

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We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Re:Hum. by WindBourne · 2010-02-20 05:06 · Score: 1

Very sad, actually. I am one of many opposed to what Chinese gov. is doing, but to be racists against the people is a very different thing. Sad that kids are being raised this way.

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I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
Re:Hum. by Vellmont · 2010-02-20 05:07 · Score: 1

So they confirm where the attacks came from, where does it go from there?

The usual with anything dealing with international politics. A lot of posturing, threats, and promises, but very little in the way of action.

I somehow doubt they'll find a way to directly pin this on the Chinese government, regardless of if they did it or not.

Who's "they"? Google? Google has already tried to do that. Same with the U.S. media. John Markoff was on NPR yesterday talking about how it couldn't have just been students because "they used unknown IE exploits, which points to professionals". That just made me laugh. Gee John Markoff, did you forget your own reporting from the last 20 years where it was the American kids using "unknown exploits" (Mitnick, Robert Morris) to break into American businesses?
Who it was that ACTUALLY did these attacks I doubt we'll ever know. China will try to sweep it all under the rug, Google will try to use this as a way to look like they're trying to face up to China, and the media will use it as another opportunity to sell some eyeballs. I sure as hell wouldn't just assume it couldn't have been a single, or a small group of individuals though. These guys this guy (just to pick a couple well known examples) proved that wrong more than 20 years ago. It could also be a collusion of individuals and foreign governments, like for instance this guy

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AccountKiller
Re:Hum. by dwye · 2010-02-20 05:30 · Score: 1

> (Although one could argue the military and government are the same thing.)
No, but it would be pretty hard to argue that the military is not a proper subset of the government.
However, in any case, since they have been exposed, the Secretary will disavow an knowledge of their actions. Good luck, Mister (Chinese equivalent of Briggs, Hand, or Phelps).
(cue Lalo Shifrin's theme)
Re:Hum. by m.ducharme · 2010-02-20 05:55 · Score: 3, Informative

China's already started dumping its T-bills. Strangely, this doesn't seem to be getting a lot of play in the media...I wonder why?
Times of India
Reuters

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Re:Hum. by Ihmhi · 2010-02-20 06:38 · Score: 1

So? Other countries will be glad to buy the T-Bills. This is a non-issue. See this post and its child posts..

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Random Thoughts From A Diseased Mind (Not For Dummies)
Re:Hum. by zill · 2010-02-20 09:28 · Score: 1

USA != Western world
Re:Hum. by Nidi62 · 2010-02-20 09:33 · Score: 1

No, it certainly isnt. But China sells to the West, not to the East, and the US is the largest market in that region.

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The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
Re:Hum. by cyfer2000 · 2010-02-20 16:52 · Score: 1

I hope we can get a direct-to-video/DVD/Blue-ray movie on this Google vs. China thing, just like the Mitnick story.

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There is a spark in every single flame bait point.
Re:Hum. by KDR_11k · 2010-02-20 21:01 · Score: 1

It's the government that can't pay but it's the people and economy that imports.

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Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
Re:Hum. by KDR_11k · 2010-02-20 21:09 · Score: 1

I'd assume seasoned hackers would know how to use proxies.

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Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
Re:Hum. by commodore64_love · 2010-02-21 14:14 · Score: 1

>>>if it turns out the terrorists are Chinese, it would shift the direction of momentum for such groups as Homeland Security
On no. Here comes the Nightwatch. Better be careful what posters you hang, else you'll be arrested by them.

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"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall

They are anti-American... by Anonymous Coward · 2010-02-20 03:35 · Score: 3, Interesting

Anyone who has experienced being in a class with any large number of Chinese students (that actually came from and lived in China, just to be clear) will tell you that many of them are deeply programmed to be anti-American. I used to read "USA sucks China rules" on the desks in the library all the time at SUNY Buffalo. I don't blame the students but it's true nonetheless.

Yeah. So what? by Anonymous Coward · 2010-02-20 03:40 · Score: 4, Insightful

Seriously, so what? China is in a cold war with the west. Sadly, the west has not woke up to this. This is just one more of their approaches. And to be honest, it is SMART on their part. The west is working hard to avoid another cold war, but we are in it and losing it. If China was a democracy, then it would be different. However, you will note that all of the nations that are not full democracies are coming together, and they are winning.

Re:Yeah. So what? by commodore64_love · 2010-02-20 04:45 · Score: 1

I disagree that we are at war, because the economic-political situation is not the same. During the Euro-American versus Soviet Union Cold War, which initiated in the late 40s, there were two diametrically opposed philosophies: A free uncontrolled market (us) versus a government-controlled market (them).
However in the last few decades things have changed. The Euro-American market is still privately owned, but the government is pulling the strings more-and-more with each passing year (called socialism). Heck we have a carmaker that is now called "government motors" in some circles since the government owns a majority stake in it.
The Chinese market is very similar to the EU and US markets: Privately owned businesses but with government control. Our economies are more alike than different, with the only caveat being our government-controlled marketplace is democratically elected, while theirs is not, but I don't think that's an important enough distinction to declare a cold war.
We are too dependent on one another (we need their goods; they need our customers).

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"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
Re:Yeah. So what? by Anonymous Coward · 2010-02-20 05:02 · Score: 1, Informative

You have it VERY wrong. This is not about the TYPE of an economic system. This is about the type of gov that you are ok with. Many Chinese are willing to accept the CURRENT situation only because they have not known economic freedom. HOWEVER, the Chinese gov will NOT give up control. And neither will the other govs that are slowly moving in. Take the example of Venezuela. They freely elected Chavez. Great. I say more power to them. HOWEVER, now, he has amended their constitution to allow himself to run forever (he was term limited). In addition, he is shutting down private new media AND controlling their polls.

At this time, China DOES need us, but they are working to break that. The problem is that American companies do not care, nor are they paying attention. China is busy stealing tech. In addition, they have fixed their money to the dollar, put up trade barriers, dump their products, and subsidize their own goods. This is designed to drain the west of their manufacturing capabilities.

This is a Cold war. We are losing it because of people that do not pay attention. Far too many Americans are being corrupted in the pursuit of the all mighty dollar.
Re:Yeah. So what? by TheLink · 2010-02-20 05:46 · Score: 1

> Many Chinese are willing to accept the CURRENT situation only because they have not known economic freedom.

Most Chinese are willing to accept the current situation because they believe that things have actually been improving enough over the past decade or so. Many even have experienced first hand the improvements[1].

They have quite a fair bit of economic freedom in China. They don't have much political freedom. If you're poor, it doesn't matter how much economic freedom there is in your country - your options are still limited.

[1] Yes being better than really crap is not so hard. But hey they are actually improving stuff. Not everything is improving of course, but in general very many things have got better.
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Re:Yeah. So what? by zill · 2010-02-20 10:00 · Score: 1

The EU Parliament wants to make firing bad employees illegal, except in the most egregious circumstances (Chinese style guaranteed employment).
Just curious, where did you hear about this "Chinese style guaranteed employment"?

I didn't think such a thing was possible in a market economy.

Re:Act Of War by Anonymous Coward · 2010-02-20 03:41 · Score: 3, Insightful

You do realize that by those standards of treating industrial/state espionage as an act of war you should also be including countries like france, germany, israel, russia, south africa and so on? Not to mention the dozens and dozens of countries the US regularly performs hostile intelligence operations on? So you're really hoping for WWIII? Welcome to the real world, kid.

The most awesome vocational school in the world by lobsterturd · 2010-02-20 03:42 · Score: 5, Informative

Shanghai Jiaotong University? Fair enough. But also see Roland Soong's translations about the vocational school.

Re:The most awesome vocational school in the world by noisebar · 2010-02-20 06:19 · Score: 1

My reaction too. I can understand Jiaotong getting involved (I graduated from that school). But Nanxiang? Are you kidding me? Their ads appear in TV infomercials!
Re:The most awesome vocational school in the world by theArtificial · 2010-02-20 10:11 · Score: 1

All I can say is wow. The situation of the students attending these "schools" reminds me of the saying: Criminals are not born. They are made.

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Man blir trött av att gå och göra ingenting.

Re:Act Of War by Jon+Abbott · 2010-02-20 03:43 · Score: 3, Insightful

I would like to know what the U.S. contingency plan is for war with China. Look at almost any product in the U.S. today, and it is from China. If we declare war with them, do we suddenly have no more imported goods? This is not a scenario that I like to ponder.

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Slashdot's first reaction to VMware

this attack finally convinced me by antifoidulus · 2010-02-20 03:46 · Score: 4, Interesting

to go ABC with my buying habits, ie Anything But China. I refuse unless absolutely necessary to buy goods manufactured in China. They are obvious hellbent on telling the rest of the world what they are allowed to do(such as meet with the Dalai Lama), not to mention they have the most hypocritical trade policy on the planet. Fuck them, fuck them all.

It's not easy, but if you are vigilant you can find really good deals on stuff not made in China(which is pretty much all shit quality anyway). I've noticed that clothes made in Vietnam have much better quality than those made in China, ditto for electronics and Japan. I have a camera that is made in Japan and has lasted a long time despite being repeatedly abused. It was certainly worth the extra bit of money I paid over the Chinese made piece of shit I bought before. The last pair of shoes I bought that were made in China fell apart in a couple of months, the US made ones I am wearing now are much durable. The list goes on. Boycott China.

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Monstar L

Re:this attack finally convinced me by DeltaQH · 2010-02-20 04:04 · Score: 4, Insightful

But don't boycott Taiwan (Repuplic of China)
Re:this attack finally convinced me by antifoidulus · 2010-02-20 04:08 · Score: 2, Interesting

Unlike China they actually make some decent quality stuff and are vehemently opposed to the mainland's expansionist policies for obvious reasons.

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Monstar L
Re:this attack finally convinced me by euyis · 2010-02-20 04:10 · Score: 1

What's a "repuplic"...
Re:this attack finally convinced me by DeltaQH · 2010-02-20 04:14 · Score: 1

Ooops! My fault. I mean Republic

A republic is a form of government in which the head of state is not a monarch and the people (or at least a part of its people)have an impact on its government The word "republic" is derived from the Latin phrase res publica, which can be translated as "a public affair".
Re:this attack finally convinced me by Vellmont · 2010-02-20 04:34 · Score: 1

After the various Chinese food scandals, I refuse to buy any food from that comes from China. It's obvious to me the cause of the THREE separate melamine food scandals (milk, wheat gluten and pet food) and the poisoned toothpaste scandal were a corrupt system that's setup to reward bad behavior. Essentially milk producers got more money if they had high protein levels in the milk. Adding melamine gave a high false reading for protein. Someone obviously started marketing this melamine to farmers or someone else in the distribution channel to raise protein levels. They might not even have known what the hell the stuff was. If the price of milk is so low you can't survive without watering it down and putting this poison in it to "enhance" it, how many people won't do that? So the problem is systemic, and not just "a few bad apples", which is how I heard China was trying to spin it as. Not a system I want to gamble my health on.
The whole thing reminds me of the U.S. banking system that caused the housing collapse. That's a similar system that rewarded bad behavior where banks bundle up bad mortgages (throwing away information in the process), and then get a ratings agency to give the resulting security a triple-A rating (low risk). The securities then got sold around the world. The ratings agencies are "independent", but are highly motivated to give good ratings since banks will shop around for good rating agencies. Of course, we STILL haven't really fixed the system in any way, and the will to do so is quickly disappearing.

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AccountKiller
Re:this attack finally convinced me by antifoidulus · 2010-02-20 05:13 · Score: 1

HAHAHA, Nintendo DS as a high quality product? I've had 2 DS's, both are broken despite and yet my Japanese-made Gameboy is still kicking more than 20 years after I purchased it. Chinese workers don't give a shit about the stuff they are making, they are there only to allow the government come in to grab as much technology as they can.

As per the shoes in my example, the Chinese pair was $60, the American pair $30, the American pair lasted much longer. As per the American companies, I've bought stuff from the EXACT same companies at similar prices, some made in China, some made elsewhere. Guess what? the quality of the stuff made elsewhere is markedly better than the shit made in China. Whether the Chinese workers are intentionally doing a shitty job or intentionally poisoning the stuff they export is up for debate, but what isn't is their absolute shit quality. For example Apple's hardware quality has fallen significantly after moving more and more manufacturing to China. I doubt this is a coincidence.

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Monstar L
Re:this attack finally convinced me by Vellmont · 2010-02-20 06:16 · Score: 1

This is getting way off topic, but why not just ban the practice of bundling all these mortgages together into something that almost nobody fully understands? The ratings agency was supposed to take care of that problem, but I'm skeptical that trying to fix them is a good long term solution.
The other proposal that did appeal to me is making anyone wanting to sell these things keep a portion of them (I call it "eating your own dogfood"). Combine that with banning rating something that's essentially un-ratable because of the complexity sounds decent enough to me. What really became apparent to me is the financial industry may have smart people in it, but they're all prone to this self-reinforcing echo-chamber effect. That's why I'm skeptical that trying to fix the ratings people is the right approach, since they'll just come up with another self-reinforcing belief structure that'll go poof.

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AccountKiller
Re:this attack finally convinced me by Anonymous Coward · 2010-02-20 07:50 · Score: 1, Interesting

Its amazing how effective emotional manipulation and marketing is on end consumers Understand that a lot of the stuff that has "Made in X" where X is not Chine are really just assemblers that shipped a manufactured item from China. In the simplest case, they are just putting toy Y from China in colorful box Z from South Korea, and now its Made in Taiwan. I think there are rules against buying from another country putting it on a shipping pallet and saying its made here but that's as far as the rules go (this used to be a common practice to avoid tariffs, and trade embargoes). It all comes down to quality control, and the US just happens to be the worst at it with the deepest wallets.
Re:this attack finally convinced me by sadboyzz · 2010-02-20 08:16 · Score: 1

What are your afraid of if you're so sure Chinese made products are inferior to anything made everywhere else? Just let the free market sort it out. That is, after all, how capitalism works, is it not?
Re:this attack finally convinced me by martin-boundary · 2010-02-20 08:35 · Score: 1

Banning is the wrong approach anyway. The correct approach is to allow companies to fail, and if an industry fails with them, let it fail too. The window for that is now gone until the next crash, which is likely to happen in the next two years.
Re:this attack finally convinced me by goatherder23 · 2010-02-20 09:21 · Score: 1

So your sample size of one camera and one pair of shoes leads you to say everything from an entire country is shit?
Re:this attack finally convinced me by Anonymous Coward · 2010-02-20 09:38 · Score: 2, Funny

it is when a puppy licks you, you lick it back, then it licks you again.
vicious
Re:this attack finally convinced me by zill · 2010-02-20 10:18 · Score: 1

Please let me know where you can purchase a computer that's not assembled in China.
Re:this attack finally convinced me by martin-boundary · 2010-02-20 11:40 · Score: 1

The problem with calculated risk is that it's largely theoretical. Unlike a mechanical part which can be tested to destruction (and a failure rate computed from this), the failure rate here is merely assumed. That makes it difficult to check the quality of a risk package that might be sold.
If you buy a ton of bricks, you can always sample them and test their strength. This is true transparency. It can be done regardless of the history of this set of bricks, ie how many companies bought and sold them prior to delivery to you.
The risk market is not like that. The history of the components of a risk package is clearly necessary to understand and calculate its true failure rate, even if everyone in the chain happens to be honest. I am not sure what regulations you could introduce to decouple the risk assessment from the packaging history to bring about true transparency.
On the other point, I think that the usual discussion on collapse is too simplistic. The choice is framed as saving a company (implicit: saving the shareholders, and the freedom of said company to act as it pleases) versus letting it collapse (implicit: uncontrolled collapse, employees free to leave, directors free to dismantle assets, etc). This conveniently keeps the rights of owners and company directors free from restrictions either way.
Re:this attack finally convinced me by Culture20 · 2010-02-20 12:47 · Score: 1

For example Apple's hardware quality has fallen significantly after moving more and more manufacturing to China. I doubt this is a coincidence.
Concur. About 1/8 of the iMacs where I work have had hardware failures, usually motherboards, although some were HDDs. And we have a non-trivial amount of machines, but they were purchased in groups of 80-ish, so we could have just gotten a bad batch like with the Dell capacitor issue back in 2005-2006.
Re:this attack finally convinced me by Vellmont · 2010-02-20 12:58 · Score: 1

So in other words, nobody learned anything and we're just as screwed as we were 2 years ago. Great. Time to start putting my money in Euros, or are is everyone else just as stupid and shortsighted as the American bankers?

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AccountKiller
Re:this attack finally convinced me by KDR_11k · 2010-02-21 00:43 · Score: 1

Wasn't the idea that housing is always profitable a part of the housing bubble? Too many people investing in houses leading to an oversupply and falling prices when they had mortgaged the houses on the assumption that the sale will make them enough money to pay that off?

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Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
Re:this attack finally convinced me by KDR_11k · 2010-02-21 00:50 · Score: 1

Depends on how you define assemble. Anyone can assemble a PC from OTS components, those components are likely made in China though. Just taking those Chinese components and sticking them into a box is enough to let you put "Made in wherever-you-are" on the box.

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Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
Re:this attack finally convinced me by CalcuttaWala · 2010-02-21 01:53 · Score: 3, Interesting

i would strongly support the view that Chinese merchandise is really third class stuff. india too is flooded with all kinds of really dirt cheap stuff -- buckets, torches and a million other household goods -- the quality is astonishly bad. really wonder why people cannot make a simple and rational choice.

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Insight into much, Influence over nothing !
Re:this attack finally convinced me by fan+of+lem · 2010-02-21 19:54 · Score: 1

or Hong Kong (Special Administrative Region)

Jiaotong university topped the ACM by Anonymous Coward · 2010-02-20 03:48 · Score: 3, Interesting

"Four Chinese teams and four Russian teams dominated the top 10 rankings of the 2010 ACM International Collegiate Programming Contest (ACM ICPC). Shanghai Jiaotong University took first place followed by Moscow State University in second place, and National Taiwan University in third place. "

From http://www.acm.org/press-room/news-releases/2010/icpc-2010

No wonder why they are so good.

Re:Jiaotong university topped the ACM by Vinegar+Joe · 2010-02-20 04:04 · Score: 1

No wonder why they are so good.
But we have more lawyers and can simply sue them back to the Stone Age.

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"The average reporter we talk to is 27 years old......They literally know nothing." - Ben Rhodes

Comment removed by account_deleted · 2010-02-20 03:50 · Score: 1

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Re:Act Of War by BhaKi · 2010-02-20 03:51 · Score: 1

I would like to know what the U.S. contingency plan is for war with China. Look at almost any product in the U.S. today, and it is from China. If we declare war with them, do we suddenly have no more imported goods? This is not a scenario that I like to ponder.

Simple. You'll buy products from American corporations. Double benefit: on one hand, you rescue American companies out of the economic depression and on the other hand, you make Chinese companies lose.

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Re:Act Of War by Halo1 · 2010-02-20 03:51 · Score: 1

The scary part is that the parent is modded insightful instead of funny. There are many documented cases of the CIA, NSA, US Department of Commerce and other US entities (both governmental and non-governmental) committing industrial espionage in various forms (breaking into networks, tapping into video conferences, phone tapping, planting microphones and cameras, ...). See e.g. the list under "Published cases" in the Echelon report by the European Parliament.

So please stop acting like Virgin Mary already, it doesn't become you.

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Mod parent up by euyis · 2010-02-20 03:52 · Score: 1

I'm Chinese and I can assure you this is completely true :D

Then boycott Apple, Dell, HP, Seagate by Anonymous Coward · 2010-02-20 03:57 · Score: 2, Insightful

and other american companies. Buy Nokia, Fujitsu.

The racist 1940s by commodore64_love · 2010-02-20 03:59 · Score: 3, Insightful

>>>"Beware of the yellow peril! Be a patriotic American ...!"

+1 funny. (dark humor)

People who admire FDR always forget this part of his presidency, where he locked-up American citizens and deprived them of their rights to property, trial by jury, free speech, and so on. Why? Simply because these Americans looked like asians. - In many respects FDR was our worst president. I know that's an unpopular view, nevertheless that's what I think.

I hope IF we have another war with the Asian continent (i.e. China) that we do a better job of obeying the Constitution instead of ignoring it.

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"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall

Re:The racist 1940s by Anonymous Coward · 2010-02-20 04:13 · Score: 1, Informative

What about the German Americans? You can pin everything on racism all day long, but much of the same distrust of Japanese people were also directed towards people of the same race.
http://www.foitimes.com/internment/
Re:The racist 1940s by crazycheetah · 2010-02-20 04:16 · Score: 1

Goddamn, I'm 22 and don't know shit about history (relative to other topics), but I thought about this as I read the OP. In its own dark way, it's kinda funny...
Re:The racist 1940s by littlewink · 2010-02-20 04:22 · Score: 5, Insightful

Chinese immigrants to the USA are far less patriotic (to the USA) than were Japanese immigrants to the USA during WWII. In fact, somewhere between one-third and one-half of Chinese immigrants are already spying/aiding for the Chinese mainland in some way. Ask any sample of Chinese immigrants to the USA about where their loyalties lie. At the very best they are ambivalent.
In a war with China the USA would have serious problems with its internal Chinese population. The lessons of the unjust Japanese imprisonment in WWII would not apply. We would be forced to imprison the Chinese. That would not be a racist act but a reasonable and necessary one.
You have made the mistake of comparing two situations that appear to be similar but that are in fact quite different.
Re:The racist 1940s by Opportunist · 2010-02-20 04:29 · Score: 2, Insightful

I hope IF we have another war with the Asian continent (i.e. China) that we do a better job of obeying the Constitution instead of ignoring it.
You mean as well as the constitution is upheld in the war already being waged on the Asian continent, in respect of imprisoning people the US deem "terrorists"? Most likely we're going to see more loopholes used, akin to "if it's not on US soil, it doesn't matter to the Constitution...".

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We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Re:The racist 1940s by Mashiki · 2010-02-20 04:37 · Score: 3, Insightful

You're saying this like this was a bad thing. We did the same thing in Canada. As a 1st generation descendant of German/Japanese parents let me just say. Given the opportunity at the time, plenty would have been happy to follow the orders of the fatherland and/or the god-emperor to do whatever it takes to kill you from within.

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Om, nomnomnom...
Re:The racist 1940s by Anonymous Coward · 2010-02-20 04:41 · Score: 2, Insightful

What are you talking about? Everyone knows that whites can't be the victims of racism. Their vast majority of 1.5 billion people (out of 6.7 billion) clearly makes them responsible for all racism and racist behavior.
Re:The racist 1940s by commodore64_love · 2010-02-20 06:41 · Score: 1

>>>What about the German Americans?
You can't be serious? It's not the same. Almost my entire state consists of German American citizens (Amish, Quakers, Mennonites, et cetera), but my grandparents were not forced out of their homes and locked-up in concentration camps during the war.
The Japanese-Americans were.
And also even if the German-Americans had been rounded-up into camps, does that make it any better? FDR's decision to do that still violates the first ten amendments to the Constitution, as well as the protected rights in the State Constitutions. He should have been impeached for breaking constitutional law, if not during the war, then certainly after it was over. (IMHO). Unfortunately he didn't live long enough.....

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"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
Re:The racist 1940s by commodore64_love · 2010-02-20 06:45 · Score: 1

>>>We would be forced to imprison the Chinese.
Which is an illegal act. We can imprison or deport Chinese citizens, but the Constitution does not allow you to do things like this to chinese-American citizens (like my coworkers and best friend and his wife). The Constitution is the Supreme Law of the land and you can not simply ignore it.
Else we would be a lawless society.

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"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
Re:The racist 1940s by jmrives · 2010-02-20 06:47 · Score: 1

In fact, somewhere between one-third and one-half of Chinese immigrants are already spying/aiding for the Chinese mainland in some way.
Care to enlighten us as to where you got these (albeit, very broad) statistics? Certainly, a carefully conducted study of this "fact" would be very newsworthy.
Re:The racist 1940s by flyneye · 2010-02-20 06:52 · Score: 2, Interesting

We've had most of our dark days and loss of freedom from Wilson onward.
Every president has had a way of pissing off a percentage of the population, but from Wilson onward we lost more freedom than we gained.
Minorities and women not part of the statement, as this is just good sense and necessary to our evolution.
Over time and circumstances, its been Asians jailed, Negroes jailed, Communists jailed,Hippies jailed, Tax protesters jailed, Marijuana smokers jailed and others who just didn't fit the bill. Race is no barrier to being an enemy of the socialist state.
One could say Lincoln was the beginning of the shitstorm. The civil war wasn't mainly about slavery as suggested by safe state sponsored school books, it was about money and states rights. Of course Negroes fell under the money/property heading, but it is wrong to highlight this as the main cause merely to obscure the Fed scrambling for power. Lincoln wasn't particularly non racist, but that is another matter.
Both sides had massive P.O.W. camps for those disagreeable with policy on either side of the Mason/Dixon line.
If we stay constitutional about our wars, we will just defend our borders, keep our financial interests within, and quit policing the world.
We have a lot of ways we've developed over time to do away with in order to start over again. In the interest of my grandchildren to come, I'm all for trashing a lot of legislation, foreign policy and business practices and weather the storm in order to achieve repair. Anyone who is not is part of the problem and should seek other borders to live within where their desires can be met. I value freedom over safety or convenience, if that is flamebait to anyone, so be it. We all know the old saying, and what they deserve.
Personally, if my car has been modified to run faster but wear out sooner, I'd take off the mods and go with factory parts originally engineered to last. Even if it meant the car would be out of service for a while.
As for our national debt, just hand over those , still alive, who have legislated it so ,to work it off. Not part of our original plan and therefore not valid. Note that states rights don't apply to D.C. and other federal holdings, this means constitutional rights. Don't believe me? Just ask any tax protester dragged into court, denied bail and whisked around the country on federal properties while his lawyers tried to locate him.
It's a sick sad government and we are the worse off for it in spite of the lies taught in school. It's easy to blow me off as nuts instead of trying to see my points of view. But ask yourself this, isn't even a broken clock right, twice a day?

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*Repent!Quit Your Job!Slack Off!The World Ends Tomorrow and You May Die!
Re:The racist 1940s by commodore64_love · 2010-02-20 06:53 · Score: 1

>>>plenty would have been happy to follow the orders of the fatherland and/or the god-emperor to do whatever it takes to kill you from within.
>>>
First off, I suspect your parents would be ashamed to hear you say that. I doubt they are the killers you describe them to be. - Second for those that did commit terrorist acts during WW2, you would capture these American citizens, try them in front of a jury (amendments 5 and 6), and then imprison them. You know - like we're going with that American psychiatrist who went on a firing spree and killed a bunch of soldiers. He may be a nut, but he still has rights.
The Constitution is not just sitting there to look pretty. It's the Supreme Law of the U.S.
To ignore it is to have a lawless society.

--
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
Re:The racist 1940s by newcastlejon · 2010-02-20 07:57 · Score: 1, Troll

The Constitution is the Supreme Law of the land and you can not simply ignore it.
You can if you do it in Cuba.

--
If God forks the Universe every time you roll a die, he'd better have a damned good memory.
Re:The racist 1940s by russotto · 2010-02-20 10:39 · Score: 1

Which is an illegal act. We can imprison or deport Chinese citizens, but the Constitution does not allow you to do things like this to chinese-American citizens (like my coworkers and best friend and his wife). The Constitution is the Supreme Law of the land and you can not simply ignore it.
You can if you can get the Supreme Court to go along.
I believe Korematsu v. United States is still good (in the technical sense) law.
Re:The racist 1940s by theaveng · 2010-02-20 13:01 · Score: 2, Insightful

"To consider the justices as the ultimate arbiters of all constitutional questions is a very dangerous doctrine indeed, and one which would place us under the despotism of an oligarchy."
"Our justices are as honest as other men and not more so. They have with others the same passions for party, for power, and the privilege of their corps. Their maxim is boni judicis est ampliare jurisdictionem [good justice is broad jurisdiction], and their power the more dangerous as they are in office for life and not responsible, as the other functionaries are, to the elective control. The Constitution has erected no such single tribunal, knowing that to whatever hands confided, with the corruptions of time and party, its members would become despots." Thomas Jefferson to William C. Jarvis, 1820. ME 15:277
In other words - no the opinion of 9 unelected men does NOT supersede the Law. The Constitution rises above the U.S. government, and the justices are part of that government, therefore while their opinion may have been followed in 1944, as of today the Constitutional Law still reigns supreme over the justices. We are a Republic, not an Oligarchy of 9 old men.
Also Remember: White/colored Segregation was upheld by the Supreme Court in through most of the 1800s and 1900s.
They were wrong then too.

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FOX NEWS.com should be BANNED from television and internet. Have the Congress take it over and give us Truespeak.
Re:The racist 1940s by indiechild · 2010-02-20 13:54 · Score: 4, Interesting

I'm ethnic Chinese and was born in Vietnam, but the difference is that I grew up in Western countries, so I never had a chance to be brainwashed and indoctrinated by an oppressive dictatorship. With even teenagers from mainland China, it's already too late, they've been through the schools, they've only known one reality and one truth: China's. They'll come to your country, and they'll help steal military/industrial/trade secrets, they'll help harass and spy on dissidents, human rights activists, Tibetans, Uighurs etc. There are some courageous exceptions (dissidents), but for the most part, this is overwhelmingly true.
This is basically what has been happening ever since Mao. The communists have destroyed a beautiful country and turned it into something truly ugly.
So yes, I'm afraid what littlewink says is true. It's almost certain that China will go to war with the USA and Taiwan within the next 5-15 years. It's as inevitable as the next big stockmarket crash and double-dip recession, aka Great Depression.
My loyalties do not lie with any one country (many would call me a traitor for saying this). I just want to do the right thing -- I'll answer to the truth, not to some arbitrary nationalistic or patriotic agenda. I'm in Australia, which is a close ally to the USA. Once war with China breaks out, I have no doubt that I'll be taunted and spat on in the streets, just like the Nisei were.
Re:The racist 1940s by IRWolfie- · 2010-02-21 04:35 · Score: 1

I'm pretty sure they were baptists stealing children anyway...
Re:The racist 1940s by metrix007 · 2010-02-21 05:19 · Score: 1

The vast majority are asian..almost 3 billion including india.
whites can and have frequently been the target of racism.

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If you ignore ACs because they are anonymous - you're an idiot.
Re:The racist 1940s by Mashiki · 2010-02-27 06:07 · Score: 1

First off, I suspect your parents would be ashamed to hear you say that.

Actually no, feel free to assume, but you're being ignorant. See this is the funny thing about growing up in a mixed family. Even they both realize that there was something that needed to be done. My father grew up in the 1950's where pro god-emperor propaganda still existed among the common folk, and my mother grew up on the east side of the wall before the managed to escape--where on both sides despite the great purge of Nazism people still supported him. Those that did commit terrorist acts in the US and Canada didn't get trial by jury. They got trial by military tribunal, which by the way is the proper way to deal with individuals who attack civilians, infrastructure, etc, acting as undercover agents of a foreign power. If you don't think those rules applied back in WWII on both sides, again you're naive.
In a state of war, civilians committing acts of terrorism don't fall under civilian rights. They're akin to spies if you'd like to brush up on your history.
The Constitution may be the supreme law in the US(much like the Charter these days in Canada), but that doesn't stop people from using it to attack you from within. That's why you have the articles of war.

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Om, nomnomnom...

That isn't the question at all by Colin+Smith · 2010-02-20 04:09 · Score: 3, Insightful

The question is, who do you get to buy your debts?

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Deleted

What they teach there? by gmuslera · 2010-02-20 04:12 · Score: 1

Social Engineering 101
Exploiting Windows for fun and profit
Deploying trojans
Advanced botnets
Hacking NSA
Hacking Google
And the final exam consist in hacking into Independence Day's Alien mainframe

Re:What they teach there? by Culture20 · 2010-02-20 05:02 · Score: 1

And the final exam consist in hacking into Independence Day's Alien mainframe
You translated incorrectly. That's the entrance exam. Jolly Roger is bonus, though.

You Can't Find Me, I'm the Gingerbread Man! by icepick72 · 2010-02-20 04:27 · Score: 1

Of all the computers in all the world, USA investigates and traces attacks to two computers in two schools in China, yet several people with knowledge of the investigation asked for *anonymity* because they are not authorized to discuss the inquiry. Yep they're going to be really hard to track down. Love it.

Re:You Can't Find Me, I'm the Gingerbread Man! by drinkypoo · 2010-02-20 06:15 · Score: 1

Yep they're going to be really hard to track down. Love it.
People with knowledge of the investigation could include just about anyone. Someone who was standing within earshot when it was being discussed is a person with knowledge of the investigation. And since they know damned well they're not supposed to talk about it, they're speaking anonymously. You're making it sound like it was people inside the investigation, which could be true, but isn't necessarily so.

--
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"

Verbal diarrhea by Internalist · 2010-02-20 04:51 · Score: 3, Interesting

according to several people with knowledge of the investigation who asked for anonymity because they were not authorized to discuss the inquiry

WTF is wrong with people that they can't shut up?? I see stuff like this all the time, and it boggles my mind that people on the inside are willing to discuss stuff that is likely to at least partially jeopardize the investigation under way. Surely it's not a profit-motive...I can't imagine journalists can pay very much for this kind of information...so what is it?

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Research is what I'm doing when I don't know what I'm doing. -- Wernher von Braun

Re:Verbal diarrhea by oldhack · 2010-02-20 06:26 · Score: 2, Interesting

Psssssh. I'll let you in on this, but you gotta keep my name out of it, OK?

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Fuck systemd. Fuck Redhat. Fuck Soylent, too. Wait, scratch the last one.
Re:Verbal diarrhea by haderytn · 2010-02-20 07:32 · Score: 1

Pssssst.
Re:Verbal diarrhea by oldhack · 2010-02-20 08:00 · Score: 1

Yeah, what?

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Fuck systemd. Fuck Redhat. Fuck Soylent, too. Wait, scratch the last one.
Re:Verbal diarrhea by Erinnys+Tisiphone · 2010-02-20 11:19 · Score: 1

Agreed. This should be kept completely under wraps until there is solid evidence against a particular party and its time to press charges or involve diplomatic agencies.
Re:Verbal diarrhea by indiechild · 2010-02-20 13:58 · Score: 1

It's attention-whoring... like phoning the police hotline during the DC Beltway sniper attacks and dropping a hot tip, then seeing the police and media react.
Re:Verbal diarrhea by tabdelgawad · 2010-02-20 14:23 · Score: 3, Informative

This is not a leak. It's a standard way of releasing information to the public without having to make an official statement/accusation. And the New York Times doesn't pay for information, period. Don't you (and your moderators) read any newspapers?!

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Imposing Libertarian views on everyone online since 1992.
Re:Verbal diarrhea by Internalist · 2010-02-22 10:03 · Score: 1

[...] people with knowledge of the investigation who asked for anonymity because they were not authorized to discuss the inquiry

This is not a leak. It's a standard way of releasing information to the public without having to make an official statement/accusation.
(1) I was not aware that this is "standard", and I submit that that's pretty fucked up. If some journalist chose to reveal these people's names, then they either have to be fired (for doing something that they were "covertly" authorized to do), or else the investigating organization has to admit that they in fact authorized the leak.
(2) I don't see the benefit of releasing this kind of information to the public, but that's likely just shortsightedness on my part.

And the New York Times doesn't pay for information, period. Don't you (and your moderators) read any newspapers?!
(3) Didn't know that for a fact, but would have guessed it to be the NYT's stance (also, I don't actually believe it, but I suppose that's immaterial to the point at hand).
I have a baby girl and am in my final semester of grad school...you can guess how much newspaper reading I do. In any event, is there an obvious section of the NYT's online edition where it says "we don't pay for information"?

--
Research is what I'm doing when I don't know what I'm doing. -- Wernher von Braun
Re:Verbal diarrhea by tabdelgawad · 2010-02-22 14:20 · Score: 1

The New York Times ethical standards are here:
http://www.nytco.com/press/ethics.html
In particular see rule 21.
Also, journalists do not reveal their sources. We didn't know the identity of 'deep throat' for close to 40 years despite intense speculation. More recently, journalists went to jail for not revealing the identity of their sources in the Valerie Plame case.
My apologies for the curt response and congratulations on your baby!

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Imposing Libertarian views on everyone online since 1992.
Re:Verbal diarrhea by Internalist · 2010-02-23 15:21 · Score: 1

The New York Times ethical standards are here:[...]
Thanks!

Also, journalists do not reveal their sources.
*Cringe*...I have a tendency (character flaw?) of not taking groups of people at their collective word...so I give "journalists do not reveal their sources" about as much weight as "cops don't take kickbacks or get free blowjobs". It only takes one bad apple

We didn't know the identity of 'deep throat' for close to 40 years despite intense speculation. More recently, journalists went to jail for not revealing the identity of their sources in the Valerie Plame case.
True enough...my concern is that this kind of moral fibre/ethical uprightness is fast waning.

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Research is what I'm doing when I don't know what I'm doing. -- Wernher von Braun

Re:Act Of War by pitchaxistheory · 2010-02-20 04:56 · Score: 1

The answer to your question is Fallout 3. But the problem is, where are all the Vaults?? Oh right... Vault-Tec lost it all on Lehman Bros. bonds... We're screwed!... (I jest. I JEST!!)

Re:Act Of War by Culture20 · 2010-02-20 05:07 · Score: 4, Insightful

Simple. You'll buy products from American corporations. Double benefit: on one hand, you rescue American companies out of the economic depression and on the other hand, you make Chinese companies lose.

Where are the factories? Where are the means of production? Where are the steel mills? The U.S. has a lot of rebuilding to do.

You going to boycott the US government? by Colin+Smith · 2010-02-20 05:23 · Score: 2, Informative

Cos China owns trillions of US government bonds, which your income taxes pay for.

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Deleted

Problem with the US - Lazy trains by eternalelegy · 2010-02-20 05:27 · Score: 2, Funny

"Lanxiang, in east China’s Shandong Province, is a huge vocational school that was established with military support and trains some computer scientists for the military.'"

That's the problem with the US nowadays, our trains are always off hauling freight or mucking about with passengers while the Chinese trains are establishing huge vocational schools for CS students.

Shameful.

When fear comes... by ub3r+n3u7r4l1st · 2010-02-20 05:35 · Score: 1

people do irrational things. This is how dictators come to power.

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New Economic Perspectives

Re:Dang by trapnest · 2010-02-20 05:39 · Score: 1

See I was with you, but then your choice of the word "paranoid" threw me off. You're one of -them- trying to sow the seeds of doubt. You won't get through my tin foil!

Re:Act Of War by hackingbear · 2010-02-20 06:09 · Score: 1

Simple! Stop exporting wheat, pork, beef, chicken feet to China. They may have to worry about food again.

Re:Act Of War by Omestes · 2010-02-20 06:37 · Score: 2, Interesting

Or, sweet Jesus, we can work on actually manufacturing our own crap again. Not that I think we ever would stoop that low. Yes, making our own crap would raise costs, but it also would create jobs which would mean more net money to buy crap. But then again someone would have to settle for mere millions (and the intangible of adding to the long term stability of the US) instead of billions and the joy of being able to play the fiddle while the US collapses into a third world nation.

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A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government. -edward abbey

Not the *worst* president... by zippthorne · 2010-02-20 06:47 · Score: 1

In many respects FDR was our worst president. I know that's an unpopular view, nevertheless that's what I think.

Of course it's an unpopular view. Woodrow Wilson was just as racist and far more damaging a president that FDR ever was. FDR only screwed up our country. Wilson sowed the seeds of WWII (increasing our enemies by one Japan in the process), the war in Indochina, screwed up domestic race relations, created the Federal Reserve...

--
Can you be Even More Awesome?!

unpopular by bomcha · 2010-02-20 10:41 · Score: 1

Lets suppose it's true about the origin of the attacks...but can we say the US government is also totally without it's guilt???

....Or they're just BSing... by taishi07 · 2010-02-20 13:26 · Score: 1

This is from the Lanxiang school they're talking about =.=; http://zonaeuropa.com/201002b.brief.htm#015

Re:Oh really? by mwu · 2010-02-20 21:12 · Score: 1

CIA and Tibet http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/JC26Ad02.html CIA and Xinjiang http://www.prisonplanet.com/the-cia-and-rioting-uyghurs-in-xinjiang.html

Re:Act Of War by commodore64_love · 2010-02-21 14:10 · Score: 1

If we were at war with China, the solution would be simple. Instead of shipping across the Pacific, we'd simply ship across the Atlantic, and buy stuff from Europe, Africa, and India. It might cost a little more to buy from those areas, but the goods will still fit our needs.

And China would be hurt from the sudden lack of income from the US and the EU. It would probably throw them into an economic depression.

--
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall

Comment removed by account_deleted · 2010-02-22 04:33 · Score: 1

Comment removed based on user account deletion

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Two Chinese Schools Reportedly Tied To Online Attacks

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