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We're Staying In China, Says Microsoft
ericb tips an article at the Guardian which begins:
"Hopes that Google's forthright stand on censorship in China would inspire other companies to follow suit appeared unfounded today, with the move instead threatening to widen the rift between some of the world's most powerful internet companies. Microsoft, which has considerable interests in the country, including its Bing search engine, responded directly to criticism by Google's co-founder Sergey Brin, who this week accused the company of speaking against human rights and free speech. Brin, who pressed for the closing down of Google's self-censored Chinese search engine, said yesterday: 'I'm very disappointed for them in particular. I would hope that larger companies would not put profit ahead of all else. Generally, companies should pay attention to how and where their products are used.' Microsoft rejected Brin's critique, saying it would continue to obey local laws on censorship in China."
Normally the news likes to hand you a big fat moral or ethical dilemma when you find out that your favorite product is made by Big Evil. But this is the best kind of news for me! The kind that further reaffirms my views on my most hated companies!
Terrible news for the Chinese. Great news for my Down with Microsoft agenda! When you're chewing on life's gristle don't grumble, give a whistle!
My work here is dung.
I am conflicted! I like Bing's policy on retention of searches, and dislike their China policy. I admire Google's new policy on China, but dislike their privacy policies in the US.
"He's lost in a 'floyd hole"
It's always nice to see companies following local laws.
How can I believe you when you tell me what I don't want to hear?
And now we see Google's true motivation. They had this much ->.- market share in China, so they pull out due to Moral reasons and toss the grenade over the fence to Microsoft. Microsoft, being the dip shits they are, catch the grenade and run for the end zone in their Heisman pose.
No one likes microsoft anyway.
I'm kind of torn by this whole China/Google/Microsoft thing. While I'm not a fan of the Chinese government, who are we to say what they should and shouldn't allow? Would we want a Chinese company to come into our country and tell our government what to do? While I've seen a great deal of discussion about human rights surrounding these stories, I've seen precious little about sovereignty.
I don't see a problem here; proprietary software is for proprietary minds.
"Most people, I think, don't even know what a rootkit is, so why should they care about it?"
Gee, what a surprise. That was hard to predict. Not.
Shoes for Industry. Shoes for the Dead.
I'd think they'd fit right in in a controlled society.
Maybe now that the people of China only have M$ as a search giant to choose from, people will flee and the regime will collapse so democracy can win again!
After years of playing ball with China, Google has an epiphany and decides it's evil. Now they condemn anybody else who hasn't come to the same conclusion on their schedule.
Resist the google goodie goodies and go make our government some of those dollars back in form of taxes from profits of chinese companies.
Different companies have a vastly different presence in foreign companies, especially in regards to products. Microsoft sells software products straight-out, while Google provides services which generates revenue via advertising. I can see why it would be an entirely different decision for the two companies. I think Bing is just a minor footnote in all this anyway. It's market presence in China can't be very large, especially since it is so new.
Microsoft might go along with China's requirements with Bing just to keep a good relationship so China will help combat piracy of Microsoft's products, etc. Those a drastically different considerations than for Google.
Oh, and at some point the economy of the US needs to be considered by US companies. Every cent spent in China buying a US product is needed at this time.
Better known as 318230.
... when Microsoft is run by Steve Ballmer.
http://twitter-marketingonline.com/twitter-marketing/steve-balmer-eat-my-shorts/
http://www.silicon.com/technology/software/2004/10/05/steve-ballmer-qanda-microsoft-ceo-on-security-piracy-licensing-and-the-digital-future-39124699/
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2001/06/02/ballmer_linux_is_a_cancer/
Really Google? How about human rights and free speech abuses abuses in Israel, Iraq, Zimbabwe or, most importantly .
Birds of a feather flock together.
This will be interesting seeing 2 back-stabbers "playing nice" but who will stab the other first.
Obama's legacy: (N)othing (S)ecure (A)nywhere and (T)error (S)imulation (A)dministration
Siding with China in times when the US is just waiting for anything to lambast China for this is not a smart move of Microsoft. The US has slowly started to realize China is the lawnmower and US is the grass unless something is done, especially know when the brain drain is starting to go towards China, leaving the US with nothing at all, neither patents nor manufacturing or talent.
The problem for Microsoft is that a whitdrawal would give open source unprecedented foothold. No matter how they turn they end up with problems at their hands. I dont think that was the goal of Google but if it plays out this way it sure tells being "the good guy" can pay out in the long run.
Just look at this article:
http://money.cnn.com/2010/03/24/technology/china_google_hearing/index.htm
HTTP/1.1 400
Microsoft staying in China or not will make no difference to the political situation in China. Furthermore, I wish companies would stay away from politics altogether: no contributions to parties, no statements about how good or bad is a local government. Follow the local laws, and leave politics to the country's citizens.
Just because Microsoft writes bad software and it is a monopoly, it does not mean that all it does is evil. I think that Google's move was the result of many issues that just make doing business there too hard. This includes tarnishing the Google brand by exposing itself to criticism of 'collaborating' with a totalitarian regime, but the gmail hacking was also a factor.
Paul Casal
jBilling Open Source Billing
Did anyone honestly expect anything else of Microsoft? Sure, I hope other companies will follow suit but I don't expect any of them to be direct competitors with Google. The allure of a Google-free environment is just too tempting to resist.
Since Microsoft has decided to tow the line, it's going to be tough for them. Exactly how much money is to be made in China? I think Google pulling out wasn't completely about morality. I think they just sold it as such. I think it had to do more with the extreme overhead in dealing with the Chinese governemnt. Like in managing massive filters that are required. Not just for existing content, but new content. Tie that in with the fact that probably every 2 minutes, the Chinese government adding 50 new things to be filtered.
I liken SPAM management to web filtering, but web filtering is on a much much larger scale. There isn't just around one to two thousand people writing web content. There are around 116+ million domains and around 150,000 new domains each day. (http://whois.sc/internet-statistics/) The dataset is astronomical. I'm sure installing WebSense is inadequate.
Good luck Microsoft. Not sure it's going to be as profitable as you think. Not to mention, I'm not sure China is all tat Microsoft friendly. I seem to recall the Chinese government forcing people to uninstall Windows in favor of Red Flag Linux.
Maybe they are the world's knight in shining armor come to save the world from censorship and DRM and stop government from spying and stuff.
Hey come on, it might happen.
My ism, it's full of beliefs.
, nobody asked though...
how long until
Microsoft rejected Brin's critique, saying it would continue to obey local laws on censorship in China."
Interesting how it's fine to obey the law to the letter in China(and about any other offshoring destination), but find every way to get around obeying it in the US.
Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
With 2 bullion people, even at the expected 99.9% piracy, that's a lot of money.
...but in China they stick to them? I mean, I know I'm not really pointing out anything new or deep here, but Microsoft seems to constantly come up with new ways to make me shake my head.
By this time next week they'll be claiming "Market share for Bing jumped by 19%.in the last month".
No sig today...
hahahaha this actually made me laugh. so unexpected. awesome. crass and immature, yeah, but certainly unexpected
Brain drain? What are you talking about? Maybe Chinese citizens are apt to go back to China with their new scholarship, but I do see many Western people getting their degree and becoming Chinese citizens. Our system here isn't perfect, but its much more preferable to me than Chinas.
Bill Gates wants to be seen as some kind of third world savior but in the end, he's just another capitalist with money to burn.
You are aware that Bill has retired from all but a non-exec position aren't you? He has surprisingly little say in what MS do these days.
This is true in the U.S. and in China. If the government or the law is bad, then it is not right to respect the law.
Law and order is the most important and critical part of civilization. But when it is used to harm people, it is no longer a supporting or contributing part of civilization and serves to undermine civilization.
Microsoft, you cannot hide behind "following the law" in this case. You don't always follow the law. You routinely manipulate and break the laws of the U.S. and of other nations. You also see fit "buy" laws that serve your own interests. "Following the law" can only be read as a convenient excuse from Microsoft.
Their stance takes on even greater meaning in the face of their competition being spineless, unethical slime. Like that's a big surprise to anybody who's paid any attention to Microsoft's business practices wile not partaking of the Kool-Aid.
Microsoft employs a lot more Chinese developers then Google (or most anybody for that matter). MS pays those developers about twice as much as other tech companies and 10 times as much as the average labor in the area. Perhaps they are doing more good by spurring economic development in china. That development leads to more people being able to have internet access. More people will see the censorship and really no filter can prevent everything from getting through.
I suppose they could still employ people in China and just not offer their software there anymore, but that seems like a poor way to conduct business given a lot of the Chinese employees work on China specific stuff
Hikery.net - The best hiking site ever. Made by yours truly.
I'm pretty sure this is what a lot of us are picturing.
Brin [sitting at a conference table, looking at the camera uncomfortably]: "You know, we said we wouldn't be evil, but then we were a little evil. But we didn't like it. So we're going to try being less evil again. That seems better."
Ballmer [smoking a cigar, in bed with Satan]: "What's that? Dominate China in Google's absence by cooperating with tyranny? Hahahaha! What's the DOWNside!?"
Any time corporate ethics come up, someone inevitably posts ths "IBM Nazi" thing like it is some kind of established fact. Unfortunately it is not nearly as clear as Edwin Black and his supporters make it out to be. First of all, not every historian even agrees with the breathless claims made in the book, but few are willing to put up with the claims of anti-semitism that are inevitably raised when someone questions Mr Black's research.
Secondly, even assuming the company and everyone who ever was associated with it is guilty of being a Nazi, Edwin Black himself did a huge amount of business with IBM, so his moral lecturing rings a little hollow.
Thirdly, how could anyone believe that the launch of the book and the class action lawsuit (timed to happen simultaneously, and immediately thrown out of court never to be heard from again) was a co-incidence?
Usually there's a long chain that eventually causes an incident wherein Godwin's Law is invoked, rendering the argument pointless and concluded. You got that right out of the way. Good on you.
Clearly you WOULD bring up Nazis, so ignore my signature.
Corrupt nation; Corrupt company.
I was pleased that google chose to leave china much in the same way that I'm pleased that someone stops beating their child. Anyway, kudos to Google nonetheless. However, I would expect nothing less from Microsoft on this kind of thing. Their record shows, since the companies formation that they will always, without exception, choose the profitable thing over the right thing.
they have started criticizing ms for their policy in china. its not like how it was back in bush era, is it microsoft.
Read radical news here
So if I type "child porn" into the Google image search, should it return 8-year-olds giving blowjobs?
Yes, it should. And people who abuse children to produce those images should be prosecuted, and the sites that host them should be prosecuted.
Making Google censor that kind of thing doesn't make it go away, it just makes it invisible to most people. Anyone who's really interested can find it.
And child porn is a bad analogy. The crime here isn't abuse of individuals, it's engaging in speech that criticizes government. Maybe it's a patronizing, western take on things, but if your society needs to suppress dissent to continue to exist, your society is shitty and needs to change.
the parent makes a valid point. some majority/minority somewhere in the world all wanting the same thing does NOT make what they want acceptable, humane or ethical, and doesnt free us from our moral obligations as humans to act for the greater good.
Read radical news here
I am no fan of Microsoft but how are they any better then Google? Both of them are guily of violating the privacy of people right here in the US.
The majority of posts here (and the article) accuse Microsoft of putting "profit over all else". However, when you do so you should also participate or risk becoming a Limousine Liberal http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limousine_liberal. The easiest thing to do is stop buying items "Made in China". The harder part is to research each product you buy to determine how much Chinese labor /goods / profits are in that item. Some tech items are straightforward (Lenovo laptops and Cisco providing equipment to the Great Firewall), but according to CNN it isn't easy for consumers http://www.cnn.com/2007/LIVING/wayoflife/07/26/china.products/index.html (50% of apple juice for example).
When you take a stand against Microsoft for their business practices in regard to Chinese rights then you should apply that standard across the board and avoid the businesses and products that conflict with your beliefs. /soapbox
"I'm kind of torn by this whole China/Google/Microsoft thing. While I'm not a fan of the Chinese government, who are we to say what they should and shouldn't allow? Would we want a Chinese company to come into our country and tell our government what to do? While I've seen a great deal of discussion about human rights surrounding these stories, I've seen precious little about sovereignty."
I'm big on the idea of moral relativism, and I believe that just because we value something it does NOT mean that another country should value it as well. In fact, a while back I went as far as to suggest that perhaps a country that doesn't have freedom of speech might not need to be "corrected" on the topic.
I was modded so far down that some sort of anti-troll filter kicked in and nobody at my work could post to slashdot for 30 days.
That's the day when I realized that a lot of people on slashdot use mod points to punish people they disagree with. It's so much more handy than discussing things.
Then again, maybe it was me. I see you're doing alright.
Microsoft is undercover government agent. They working on Blue Screen of Death attack.
With it being such a great fit. ^^
Eli Lily
Haliburton
Microsoft
Monsanto
Nestle
Those are the companies to stay far far away from. ...if you still can...
Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
Why does China allow internet access at all? The answer is that they want access to scientific and engineering information, not news and uncensored information about politics.
If you control a web page with any scientific and technical information on it, please add to your page some of the search terms that China censors. You can add it in non-obvious form-- white on white, just anything that the censoring software can see. Help break the censorship engine, by making it censor the stuff that they don't want to be censored.
This site, List of words censored by search engines in the People's Republic of China may give you some suggestions.
(I suggest that you add the content in Chinese characters, not merely in English).
And also check out Internet censorship in the PRC
The reason Microsoft is continuing to do business in China is precisely the same reason Willie Sutton stated for robbing banks: "That's where the money is."
It's not about what Microsoft thinks, it's about what they do. Google crossed the line from "misgivings" to "action." They have the moral right to point fingers because they took action. Whether you think their moral position is valid is a different question, but they certainly aren't hypocrites.
And, as a logical matter, even if they were hypocrites, they'd still have the right to make a moral argument. Their 'hypocritical' stance would have no bearing on the validity of their argument.
In any case, they're both walking the walk and talking the talk now--what's your problem exactly? That they changed their minds upon consideration, and when the situation worsened? I can't think of any stance more befitting a reasonable actor.
Birds of a feather flock together?
Microsoft, the home of the secret OEM agreements, the secret Novell agreements, the DRM, James Plamondon's "Technical Evangelists", James Pendergast's Astroturfing email from cemetery residences, countless cherry pickings of small startups, and who never saw a piece of BSD code they didn't like, nor did they return anything back to the BSD except a EULA, the list goes on and on, must feel right at home in China. It's obvious neither Ballmer nor Gates object see NO moral dilemma in giving up the of identities of freedom loving Chinese in exchange for profits. The Nazi goons used a similar excuse - "just following orders". As long as they can fall back on the US Constitution and continue to bribe US Congressmen (a.k.a. "campaign contributions") for special favors what do they care about human rights? Nothing.
Running with Linux for over 20 years!
I think that says more that microsoft has nothing that China wants to steal than anything else.
"I'm very disappointed for them in particular. I would hope that larger companies would not put profit ahead of all else..."
Fat chance. Morality has never been a problem for M$. They'll do anything to make a buck. It's been this way from the very beginning, and it's unlikely to ever change.
Not everything Google does is right, and they've had their share of naughty, but it seems far less than most other companies. I applaud Google in this case for standing up for what is right, and it looks like they've approached it the right way, or as best they can - pulling out instead of violating laws.
I would hope other companies will follow suit and not assist in China's ongoing efforts to violate human freedoms. If China wants to treat it's people poorly, they should be entirely responsible on their own, without the support of foreign companies.
I fear Google's going to be a little lonely out there, but despite the fact that they are not perfect, they have won additional respect from me and additional loyalty - as long as they continue trying to do the right thing in all aspects of their business.
I think Google shall return into China. I have some interest in Google, not much. Still it is my money.
The Chinese people have all the reason in the world to be cautious in dealing with the West. Just read history books or articles.
I think we should build trust, reach out, cooperate, etc., not throwing out ultimatums.
Sergey is a businessman and programmer. He shall not go into politics. He is not strong in this domain.
Chinese people want to build prosperity and democracy in an organized way. They just want to have some peace in their multinational and still developing country. I do not appreciate futile attempts to destabilize China at all.
China suggested recently to build by a common effort a high-speed railway network in Eurasia, all the way to Western Europe. China does want co-operate with other countries and build common Eurasian market. But maybe this is the reason of this hoopla. Strong rich Eurasia, the continent of 4 billion, is not in the interest of the Ocean Civilization.
The Ocean Civilization does everything to divide Eurasia, the Continent Civilization.
"That's the day when I realized that a lot of people on slashdot use mod points to punish people they disagree with. It's so much more handy than discussing things."
I just got modded down as "off-topic" when my post was relevant. Somebody was just too stupid to realize that there's no "-1 disagree" for a reason.
China To Connect Its High Speed Rail All The Way To Europe
http://www.inhabitat.com/2010/03/15/china-to-connect-its-high-speed-rail-all-the-way-to-europe/
It seems to me like a true global leadership. Not fighting with illiterate mountain tribes for years, or burning oil wells, but connecting people. Building trade, trust, and prosperity.
I want such a high speed rail in Eurasia. It would be very convenient to me. It is too expensive and scary to fly all the time.
What the h... we want more from China? They want to connect to us, do not they?
But shallow politicians still think in colonial terms: destabilize a land, grab its riches, and runaway with it.
In other news Microsoft announces it will continue its policy of doing evil where ever it can. Bean counters note that security flaws in Microsoft products have cost the galaxy $42 Quadrillion Jazillion in the past year alone.
The communist Chinese government murders its citizens for speaking out in favor of freedom and democracy.
Most US corporations are evidently OK with that. Can't stand in profit's way after all, that just wouldn't be right.
It's all just business. No added morality needed.
Many foreign companies has begun putting advanced research in China. It doesnt matter that the research is done by local residents, its still a drain.
HTTP/1.1 400
And are they all closing research centers in the US? Or is it simply expanding their operations, like many companies have done in the past?
Sigh... Microsoft is just misunderstood. It's NOT a software company. It's an evil company. Software is just the way the evil is delivered.
Okay, it's my opinion, but I'm not the only one.
Nah, they have Baidu, which is the main search engine in China. Bing isn't even on the map. Even here, they have to pay people to use it with those shopping deals they put out.
If you want to see what actual Chinese people think, look here. I actually submitted that as a story, but it was rejected.
Armand Hammer?
Why would he? Bill Gates is much more wealthy than Armand Hammer was. And Bill Gates has donated more money than Armand Hammer was worth. One thing lacking is all the medals Hammer was awarded, however the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation could bring Gates more. The only other is all the friends Hammer had, all the people he knew, however the foundation could help there too.
Both had or have oil interests, Hammer with Oxy and the Gates Foundation is invested in the Italian petroleum giant Eni.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
Yes, there is a difference and no China is not socialist. As a theory socialism advocates state ownership of industry and as an economic system the state owns the capital. China however allows and advocates individuals owning their own business. And it's not just in China the government allows private businesses, Cuba does as well, it is experimenting with private ownership of small businesses. The economic system in USSR on the other hand was communism which banned the private ownership of property. Everything was collectively owned, er that's how it was supposed to be, but it wasn't really. And like China and Cuba technically the US has a mixed economy, the new health insurance reform bill Obama signed underscoring that.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
identifying the people who go to the gas chamber
I don't know if there were databases, other than paper files in file cabinets, but if so then they could also be used to keep track of European Jews who wanted to emigrate. See, it's a fable or lie to say the NAZIs wanted to exterminate all Jews. What the NAZIs wanted was to get rid of Jews in Europe. The NAZIs actually signed an agreement with the Zionist Federation of Germany to assist Jews emigrate to Palestine. This agreement was the Haavara (Transfer) Agreement and was signed in 1933. As late as 1940 NAZIs were aiding Jews move to Palestine. Heck the Stern Gang or Lehi offered to fight with NAZI Germany against Britain. Back then Britain called them, the Jewish Stern Gang as well as others such as the Irgun and the earlier Haganah, terrorists.
Those early Jews were Zionists who wanted an ethnically purified Israel for Jews only. David Ben-Gurion, who Declared Israel's Independence and was it's first prime minister, stated "Why should the Arabs make peace? If I was an Arab leader I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country ... There has been anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we have come here and stolen their country. Why should they accept that? They may perhaps forget in one or two generations' time, but for the moment there is no chance. So it is simple: we have to stay strong and maintain a powerful army." In the article The Long Path Out of Denial: Zionism, Heartache, and a New Vision of Israel and Palestine the Jewish magazine "Tikkun" has more quotes from some of Israel's founders, such as this one:
Shlomo Lavie, a well-known leader of the Israeli Labor Party, the Mapai, declared that the "transfer of Arabs out of the country in my eyes is one of the most just, moral, and correct things that can be done."
There's plenty of blame to go around.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
He just had an $80, 000 operation and I asked him how he felt that it would have been $0 in Canada, other than your taxes.
Except even those who can't pay get medical care in the US too. More than 10 years ago I was riding my bike after my college classes one day when I was hit. My medical bills came to more than US$120,000 yet I was treated in a hospital by doctors without having any way to pay those bills. Since then I have been on and collecting disability income because the accident left me disabled. Besides my disability income I have Medicare, government, coverage and get a little economic assistance. I hate it, needing the aid, but what I hate most is the system is set up to keep people down once they are down. I have yet to find any assistance, my disability is permanent, in getting a job or the training for a job. And if I were able to find someone willing to hire me, for what I don't know, I can lose the assistance I do get. It seems like it's all or nothing. I fear Obamacare will make it worse.
Should there be a Law?
Actually, I disagree. I think that pulling out of China does far more harm to citizens of China than staying there.
How so?
And yes, I am serious. And I'm personally sick of the claim that MS abused its monopoly. MS's position IMO was still the right one.
And I'm sick and tired of people sticking up for the abuse of power.
A web browser is an OS feature.
A web browser IS NOT an OS feature, all OSes need do is provide a method to run a computer and it's software. The only reason MS gave it away was for anti-competitive purposes.
I think the forced decoupling of the OS from the web browser has actually slowed innovation.
Oh really? Microsoft doesn't innovate, it plays catchup. MS didn't do anything with IE until after Firefox started gaining a significant marketshare. MS hasn't done much with it's OS either. Under the desk I'm sitting at I still have my PC running NT4. I bought the PC brand new in December 1997 and the last tyme I ran Windows update was in January 2000. When I did I got a message from MS that I needed to order a CD with the updates and bug fixes. Luckily I posted about this though and someone gave me links to them so I could download them.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?