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Atom Processors Set New Record For Power-Efficient Sorting

schliz writes "German researchers have set a new record for energy efficient data sorting with a system based on netbook processors and Solid State Disks. The system, dubbed EcoSort, more than tripled the power efficiency of former record holders, leading one of its developers to claim: 'In the long run, many small, power-efficient and cooperating systems are going to replace the so far used, heavy weighted ones.' Records were defined by 'Sort Benchmark,' which was created by missing Microsoft scientist Jim Gray and was now managed by representatives of companies like Hewlett-Packard and Microsoft."

92 comments

  1. This is the way we are headed by hairyfeet · · Score: 4, Informative

    As electricity and cooling bills get ever higher being more frugal with the power will count more and more on the bottom line. Congrats to the team on a new record!

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    1. Re:This is the way we are headed by geegel · · Score: 0, Redundant

      Actually this is less about bills and more about battery life.

      This is the Achille's heel when it comes to mobile computing and until more of these breakthroughs are made it will be the one, most important, limiting factor.

      --
      right...
    2. Re:This is the way we are headed by religious+freak · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't SSDs somewhat limited in the number of read/write actions they can perform? Specifically, the ability to adequately make a distinction between a 1 and a 0 diminishes with the number of overwrites of a particular section of disk.

      I'm sure I could phrase this better... I've got to admit I don't know much about low-level hard disk theory. But I do recall seeing something regarding researchers trying to extend the life of SSDs, since their life is not nearly as long as spinning platters.

      If that's the case, even if researchers have made some progress, wouldn't something like sorting be exactly the WRONG application for SSDs? I mean, unless you want to spend tons of time and money (and indirectly "energy") replacing SSDs.

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    3. Re:This is the way we are headed by Anachragnome · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      First off, I apologize for the off-topic post in advance. I couldn't find any contact links to report this.

      The Firehose has been Spam botted. Only 3 of the current 20 or so submissions are actually story submissions, the rest are spam/adverts for everything from acai berry shit to resorts in Goa. Spam posts about every 3 mins now...

      And whats with all the wall-of-text repeat troll posts? They are in pretty much every story thread these days.

      Could someone that knows how, or who, to contact about this (the spam) please do so?

    4. Re:This is the way we are headed by White+Flame · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Short answer: No.

      Long answer: They sort of used to be, but nowadays the lifecycles and capacities are large enough such that you could keep the SSD's interface saturated with writes for 5-10 years straight before you start to encroach on their conservatively rated write cycle life expectancy.

    5. Re:This is the way we are headed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      actually, for my laptop I care about a few things:
      noise level (I love watching videos while my wife sleeps)
      heat (I hate it when the laptop is hot and I actually have it on my laps ...)
      autonomy (I travel quite a bit in trains and planes, and my 2 hour autonomy laptop is not so great ...)

      I like powerful machines, but they usually fail for the above

      So maybe my next machine will be atom/ssd based, anyway I'll certainly take a look.

    6. Re:This is the way we are headed by afidel · · Score: 1

      This is definitely NOT true for MLC cells, for the very largest SLC arrays it might be true (Intel x-25e 64GB at max write rate would last ~3 years at rated cell life). I guess it really depends on your usage pattern.

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    7. Re:This is the way we are headed by Taxman415a · · Score: 1
      If you click to the sortbenchmark.org link, and click on the Ecosort link, it links to a paper by the people that put the system together. It gives much more details about their system including this about their hardware decisions:

      The system is based on a Zotac IONITX-A board, equipped with an Atom 330. This processor consumes more than three times the power of an N270 (8 W TDP) but supports two cores and four hardware threads. The main advantage of this system is that its nVidia Ion chipset provides four SATA ports that can handle the SSD transfers at full speed. Moreover, it allows two DIMMs for a total of 4 GiB of RAM. The 64 bit logical address space is less prone to fragmentation, which we experienced on the 32-bit Atom N270.

      Which really shows that they got a 3 times improvement by going with sub-optimal choices because that's all that was available. If there existed a two or 4 core N270 64 bit that had the necessary RAM and SATA interfaces the results would have been even better. Just think if there was an ARM chipset and motherboard that had the needed interfaces. So there is quite a ways to go with power efficient computing and that's a good thing. I'm still waiting for a low power desktop Cortex A8 or A9 system to be widely available with all the standard PC parts. It's just going to take someone putting all the pieces together right.

    8. Re:This is the way we are headed by Aranykai · · Score: 1

      I suggest a netbook. You are limited to a 12.1 inch screen, but even the cheapest Asus will run for 4-5 hours of moderate use. Several models have 8+ hour ratings.

      --
      If sharing a song makes you a pirate, what do I have to share to be a ninja?
    9. Re:This is the way we are headed by hairyfeet · · Score: 1

      Uhhh...when are you gonna be doing record sorts on a mobile device? To me it is just nice that we have finally gotten off the "MOAR POWERZ!" bullshit and you can actually choose between a fire breathing monster, and ultra lower power machine, or anything in between. My new AMD 925 quad uses less power than my old P4 single core, and for when I just want to do general web surfing or A/V enjoyment (like now) this AMD Sempron I'm typing on is so whisper quiet and cool it doesn't bother me to have it running in my bedroom.

      So don't think it is just about mobile. As a PC builder I'm moving a lot of the new 65w AMD machines and my customers couldn't be happier. Plenty of power for everyday tasks and even light video editing and gaming, all while staying whisper quiet and not running up their cooling and electrical costs. The amount of work that these new CPUs can do with so little watts just impresses the hell out of me, especially when compared the the Netburst space heaters of just a few years back. I for one hope this trend continues, as I would love to see a 25w quad that is powerful enough for on the fly transcoding while being cool enough one could be built into a box slightly larger than a DVD ROM.

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    10. Re:This is the way we are headed by sznupi · · Score: 1

      noise level (I love watching videos while my wife sleeps)
      You might just wake up the wife instead of relying on videos...

      heat (I hate it when the laptop is hot and I actually have it on my laps ...)
      And that's a bad thing how?

      autonomy (I travel quite a bit in trains and planes, and my 2 hour autonomy laptop is not so great ...)
      I hope those trains and planes are often rather empty...

      --
      One that hath name thou can not otter
  2. Now we can have... by bostei2008 · · Score: 0

    ...sorting farms, with thousands of netbooks...

    1. Re:Now we can have... by farlukar · · Score: 2, Funny

      no no no — you're supposed to say “Can you imagine...”

      --
      Ceci n'est pas une .sig
    2. Re:Now we can have... by CarbonShell · · Score: 1

      Actually I have seen pictures of server farms using massive amounts of ITX boards.

      One of the added benefits is to have a RAID style set-up aka RAIN : 'Redundant Array of Inexpensive Nodes' where you just have added hardware you might not need now, but since they are cheap, you just add more and power wise it also won't hurt much.

      I have to still fight with 'old-timers' who still think in 'big and powerful monolithic' systems.
      If I can get 2x the power with 1/2 the costs, what will the customer take?

    3. Re:Now we can have... by CarbonShell · · Score: 2, Interesting

      True, though the space used by an ITX is smaller then those for your typical blade.
      You can get about 2-3 in per u.

      I also think you have to calculate the power needed. Some of the systems I have seen are designed for the worst-case, yet that hardly ever happens. But the system has to have all the bling and whatnot.

      Or, if you need the power, the system has been nerfed because each node costs so much.

      Also not to dismiss is the cooling requirements.
      I have seen nodes you could use to keep your coffee/tea warm (on the outside!).

      Naturally moving the datacenters around will benefit you to a certain degree. But those are often just short term solutions. Like any other 'outsourcing' they often depend on lower wages and/or subsidies which, once they are depleted, forces the datacenter to move.

      But I agree with you, we need more data and experience.

    4. Re:Now we can have... by afidel · · Score: 2, Interesting

      If you have low CPU needs why not virtualize? You can fit one heck of a lot of ITX sized VM's on a blade chassis full of modern equipment. If fact it would be on the order of 1500 in a 10U C7000 using 8GB dimm's if your VM's were 1GB and you had no memory overcommit. One c7000 is going to be a heck of a lot more power efficient than 1500 ITX boards, cheaper and more reliable besides.

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  3. Not much in the article by Bearhouse · · Score: 4, Informative

    Good to see that Jim's work lives on...meanwhile, this is about all you get in the article:

    "EcoSort set records in the Joule category, which measured the amount of energy required to sort either 10GB, 100GB or 1TB of records.

    It reached a maximum efficiency of 36,400 records sorted per joule for 100GB of data, using an Intel Atom 330 processor, 4GB of RAM, and four 256GB SSDs by flash vendor Super Talent Technology.

    In 2009, a team from the University of Melbourne had the 100GB record of 11,600 records sorted per joule using the OzSort system, which comprised a 2.6GHz AMD processor, 4GB of RAM, seven 160GB 7200 RPM SATA hard disks and a Linux operating System."

    Sure, this is the way things are going, but until prices come down we won't be seeing SSDs replacing HDDs; work fine for the desktop, tho'

    1. Re:Not much in the article by jmak · · Score: 2, Informative

      More details are here. Looks like it's a tweaked merge-sort.

    2. Re:Not much in the article by dingen · · Score: 1

      until prices come down we won't be seeing SSDs replacing HDDs

      SSDs wont be as cheap per GB as HDDs for years and years, but that doesn't mean SSDs dont have their application already today. A 80 GB SSD is already quite affordable and holds enough data to be useful for a lot of people. And of course there's always the option to put your large data on HDDs (photos, videos, music, porn, whatever), and run your OS and applications from an SSD to get the benefit of the increased access times.

      --
      Pretty good is actually pretty bad.
    3. Re:Not much in the article by Jeppe+Salvesen · · Score: 1

      Sure, this is the way things are going, but until prices come down we won't be seeing SSDs replacing HDDs; work fine for the desktop, tho'

      We won't be seeing SSDs replacing HDDs until people start calculating differently: (Total power consumption costs + total cooling costs + price) / years until failure or replacement. And let's face it - 128GB of storage is enough for a lot of servers.

      --

      Stop the brainwash

    4. Re:Not much in the article by afidel · · Score: 1

      Dude, the 3 year power and cooling cost of the whole server is less than the difference between the HDD and the SSD at this point. In a couple years when a 128GB SLC SSD can be had for the same cost as a 146GB SFF HDD it will make sense, but that's definitely not where we are today (Intel x-25e 64GB is ~$750, HP 146GB 10k is ~$200). Heck even the consumer grade x25m isn't there yet at ~$450 for the 160GB model.

      --
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  4. why is the Via C7 not more popular? by FuckingNickName · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The Via C7/Nano seems to be a great chip for a home/small office server, what with its built-in AES encryption making it faster than even a high end Xeon without hardware acceleration. My current setup consists of 2*WD SE16 hard drives, APC UPS, 80+ Corsair PSU, PC2500e Nano mobo with 1GB, and a couple of 80mm case fans, together running under 50W idle, and only 7W more at full CPU load. If I were to replace the Corsair with a fanless PSU good up to 80-120W I might get an extra 5-10% efficiency; I could wipe out the case fans probably with no problem (2-3W, say), especially if I replaced hard with spinning solid state storage, and that of course would shave off around 15W. Substitute a large fanless heatsink for another W (or just get a fanless motherboard/CPU in the first place). But even as-is, it's a good improvement on my previous regular desktop CPU-based setup.

    For something which is on 24 hours a day, going several months between reboots and stressed only in the IO and encryption departments, I see no reason to use a full-power desktop processor. So, what problems have you guys encountered which has meant you haven't ended up with this option?

    1. Re:why is the Via C7 not more popular? by LordAzuzu · · Score: 1

      Well, we should be able to compare the actual computational power of the 2 processors.
      Guess the Atom is more energy efficient and faster than C7 (1Ghz is quite low ). Let alone now there are dual core atom chips, requiring only 4-5 watts more than the single core ones.

    2. Re:why is the Via C7 not more popular? by FuckingNickName · · Score: 1

      Wait, what? I was talking about a specific application in the general topic of power-efficient CPUs. I've yet to see a comparison of current high end Intel vs Via, e.g. Atom D510 vs Via Nano. If you genuinely need to sort all day, you probably have the intelligence and resources to prepare yourself, so you might be better off building a hardware sorting algorithm in an FPGA. You're unlikely to cluster low-power CPUs on off-the-shelf motherboards because your interconnect will be shit.

      Also, what is the 1GHz referring to? Modern Via chips typically run up to 2GHz, and are architected differently from Atoms, so a straight MHz comparison is (as always) meaningless. For example, the Atom is (afaict) still an in-order CPU.

    3. Re:why is the Via C7 not more popular? by Trepidity · · Score: 1

      Is the built-in AES encryption useful on Linux installations? E.g. if I scp files, will the encryption/decryption get offloaded to hardware?

    4. Re:why is the Via C7 not more popular? by SpzToid · · Score: 3, Interesting

      What are you using AES encryption for, hard disk encryption? If so, this is a little unusual for a server, which are normally found in secure facilities, but make sense for a home perhaps.

      I'm thinking a home NAS isn't something one would want a common house-thief to walk away with. But TFA article talks about sorting, and not NAS work, hence my request for clarity. I'm curious what your application, and OS is. Your setup is certainly interesting.

      --
      You can't be ahead of the curve, if you're stuck in a loop.
    5. Re:why is the Via C7 not more popular? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I tried to use my C7 system as a home server with remote desktop abilities. Unfortunately there was no video driver available supporting the chipset so I could only get it to run X in 16bit and scrolling pages would take forever (framebuffer). I tried the official VIA drivers and the OS replacement drivers but none of them would fully support the chipset (I am at work so I can't lookup the model).

      So the next time when I need to purchase a system it will not be a VIA due to their fake Linux support.

    6. Re:why is the Via C7 not more popular? by FuckingNickName · · Score: 3, Informative

      Yes. The bottleneck for ssh probably becomes the HMAC - this thread is enlightening. SHA HMAC is afaict considered difficult to accelerate with Via's implementation, though a patch may exist. With a stock (AES-accelerated) build, software MD5 is quicker.

    7. Re:why is the Via C7 not more popular? by pinkishpunk · · Score: 1

      Except for via`s own boards, dell blades and samsung nc20 there aint much out there actual uses it, the mainboards from intel are atleast here alot cheaper than those from via.
      For the consumer its down to whats cheaper and what have they heard about, Via never ran big advertisments like intel has done for atom in different mags, so lack of knowledge of the product leads to no comsumer demant.
      While the c7/nano compares favoritable to the atom, they have failed to keep up and offer a dual core version, and if you look at linux atleast the situation with via based graphics, is pretty bad compared to intel offerings.

    8. Re:why is the Via C7 not more popular? by FuckingNickName · · Score: 3, Informative

      Sorry - although I mentioned that the Via's great for a home/office encrypted NAS, I perhaps wasn't clear that this is precisely the application I was talking about. I was just expanding the discussion on power-efficient CPU applications, and implying that, when considering energy efficiency, a low power CPU with dedicated circuitry for popular complex operations might be the way forward.

    9. Re:why is the Via C7 not more popular? by TheRaven64 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Am I the only one who read this and thought that 50W idle is insanely high? For comparison, the BeagleBoard draws under 50mW idle. If the hard disks have spun down, that should be about your total power drain. Maybe 1W if you add a very inefficient PSU. Consuming 50W while doing nothing? That's not low power, that's embarrassing.

      --
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    10. Re:why is the Via C7 not more popular? by thasmudyan · · Score: 1

      Sort of. You have to install the VIA Java Cryptography Service Provider to use the hardware acceleration, and I have the distinct feeling that standard SSH implementations won't be able to use that unless you patch them accordingly.

    11. Re:why is the Via C7 not more popular? by SpzToid · · Score: 1

      Thank you very much for the clarification, and the original information! I never really considered a VIA NAS PC, but yeah, disk encryption makes much sense for such an application.

      And I had no idea the VIA CPU offered such disk-encryption in-chip performance. As someone who really enjoys Ubuntu full-disk-encryption on notebooks, and also as someone who has considered this type of CPU for home/soho NAS-use but hasn't gotten so deep yet... Thank you very much for the low-power, home/soho security CPU tip! (I was looking for something like this for awhile)

      --
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    12. Re:why is the Via C7 not more popular? by FuckingNickName · · Score: 1

      Erm, you're comparing apples and orchards.

      45-50W is including UPS, PSU and everything spinning (and miscellaneous peripherals omitted from the above list, e.g. second Ethernet PCI, floppy, DVD drive, external modem), and with a discussion on how this is far from the lowest power solution and how I could improve things. The drives spin using around 8W each, for example.

      The BeagleBoard draws 50mW at 5V DC with nothing connected, and would be hopeless for the NAS (and many other) applications described because it lacks the various ports from SATA to Gb NIC (or PCI for such expansion) which a higher power chipset provides, and lacks the horsepower necessary to make up for the lack of hardware crypto acceleration. USB NIC, now?

      I had an ARM-powered primary desktop between 1990 and ~2000 (Acorn A3000, RISC PC), and now have an HP 50G calculator running off 4 AA batteries with a faster ARM CPU. I do appreciate the architecture and power efficiency of ARM designs.

    13. Re:why is the Via C7 not more popular? by FuckingNickName · · Score: 5, Informative

      Erm, no, for developers there have been Linux kernel crypto modules supporting the Via Padlock included since 2.6.11, and if you don't want them, you can always use the crypto instructions directly. The Java is just an API option provided by Via.

    14. Re:why is the Via C7 not more popular? by thasmudyan · · Score: 1

      Oops. Didn't know that, thanks for clearing it up. I think I'd rather make my next home server CPU a C7 instead of an Atom then!

    15. Re:why is the Via C7 not more popular? by Vectormatic · · Score: 1

      best steer clear of SiS then too... i have an intel mini-itx board with a crappy sis chip which refuses to work properly in linux, for the rest it is quite OK.

      but besides, X on server is for wimps :P real men SSH into their boxes and just bash their way to victory!

      --
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    16. Re:why is the Via C7 not more popular? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You can run your equipment off a series of USB enclosures and iPod wall warts, and the power you save can make up for the extra disk accesses you're going to need when you only have 128MB fixed RAM.

      On a diagram, marketing is the gap between sales brochure and reality.

    17. Re:why is the Via C7 not more popular? by walshy007 · · Score: 1

      and now have an HP 50G calculator running off 4 AA batteries with a faster ARM CPU. I do appreciate the architecture and power efficiency of ARM designs.

      Are hp still emulating the saturn processor on their arm devices? while I understand with that model they are aiming for backwards compatibility. Attaching an arm clocked at 75mhz to a measly 512kb of ram and a 131x80 pixel screen seems ridiculous.

      I know it's just a calculator and there to get the job done, but native code is nice and quick and using less cpu power lets the batteries last longer.

      The TI nspire seems to be the only graphic calculator out there with a modern design.

    18. Re:why is the Via C7 not more popular? by FuckingNickName · · Score: 1

      Are hp still emulating the saturn processor on their arm devices?

      Yes, although some operations have been accelerated with a native rewrite. But the emulation allows a very mature product to be executed without the cost and bugs inevitable with a complete port. People don't use calculators for their horsepower, but for usability and portability. The HP RPN + CAS are very usable.

      FWIW, I very quickly gave up learning Saturn assembler when I still had a real Saturn device :-). Today, there are well-known ways of escaping to native ARM.

    19. Re:why is the Via C7 not more popular? by hairyfeet · · Score: 1

      You can get a Via C7 board for $60 so I honestly don't know how much cheaper they could go. I agree that they never advertised like AMD/Intel, but from what I understand they make a good living in the ultra low power market.

      That said I would probably go with the Dual Sempron for just $15 more, as the Sempron is still pretty low power and it has better expansion options, better graphics from an Nvidia onboard, and dual cores. It would probably be a better deal for the Linux users as well, as from what I understand Nvidia drivers work quite well in Linux. it would probably make a great low power server or desktop.

      What is nice is that now we finally have the choice to go low power, whereas before it was pretty much either run a mobile CPU in a desktop (like in the old AMD 754 days) or underclock the CPU, and now there are plenty of low power options that will do most jobs without being a space heater or breaking your wallet. I am currently typing this on a 1.8GHz Sempron and I can really tell the difference when compared to the P4 based Celeron it replaced. Almost no heat, quiet as a church mouse, and no turning my apartment into a sauna. And for just surfing, downloading, and A/V, frankly it is more than enough.

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    20. Re:why is the Via C7 not more popular? by del_diablo · · Score: 1

      But you forget that most of those Watts is used to cool the CPU, and other stuff. A quad core ARM CPU of the newest generation would not need a cooling system, which would mean another big amounts of watts not drawn. Heck, The fact that the quad would draw a lot less than the 5-20watt slow x86 processor would give it a nice advantage.

    21. Re:why is the Via C7 not more popular? by FlyingBishop · · Score: 1

      Obviously they're looking at stock hardware. Furthermore, all CPUs are about as optimized as anything could be for sorting. Trying to roll your own in hardware isn't going to help a lot when the primary bottlenecks are memory and disk.

    22. Re:why is the Via C7 not more popular? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      if I replaced hard with spinning solid state storage

      I don't think that is going to help the power figures. Besides, you'd also have to work out cable tangling issues... and that can be a difficult knot to solve.

    23. Re:why is the Via C7 not more popular? by FuckingNickName · · Score: 1

      For CPU cooling, I have replaced the stock PC2500e fan with a 40mm Rasurbo specced at 0.6W max, which I've then further slowed down. One of the dedicated case fans is used to cool the drives (quite effectively, so it'd be there regardless of CPU), and the other may be extraneous, as the PSU draws out air. It is left over from when I had a higher power board in there, particularly because I was considering a Zalman ZM-NB47J passive cooler for the C7 CPU and then keeping that case fan to ensure good airflow over it. This'd be quieter.

      Many people seem to run completely motionless Via C7 boxes, including by modding this motherboard - although more likely is that you'd start off buying a fanless board. They're commonly available clocked at 1GHz, though 1.2-1.5GHz fanless seems possible.

      All this said, I'd be interested in recommendations for ARM mobo/CPU combinations suitable for homebrew NAS/gateway applications, and to hear about crypto performance on these boards.

    24. Re:why is the Via C7 not more popular? by FuckingNickName · · Score: 1

      Yes, I noticed that one straight after posting. Dammit :-).

    25. Re:why is the Via C7 not more popular? by Eil · · Score: 1

      50W is a little high but not altogether bad for a system with multiple spinning disks and fans. The Beagleboard is an embedded system. Even with the required peripherals it doesn't hold a candle performance-wise to an Atom/Nano-based server.

    26. Re:why is the Via C7 not more popular? by vlm · · Score: 1

      Many people seem to run completely motionless Via C7 boxes, including by modding this motherboard - although more likely is that you'd start off buying a fanless board. They're commonly available clocked at 1GHz, though 1.2-1.5GHz fanless seems possible.

      That was pretty accurate about three years ago when I built a fanless mythtv box. Still running great.

      Now a days they're all 1.2GHz on a designed to be fanless, off the shelf board. ATOM based boards claim to have a higher marketing speed. No idea if they actually crunch numbers any faster, first stage in the proc might be a /2 flipflop for all I know.

      http://www.mini-itx.com/store/?c=2

      The reason for slow speed growth in that market sector is lack of interest... I play full screen video on my 3 year old mythtv box... so a 20% faster processor, other than emptying my wallet, would provide ... nothing ... for me.

      --
      "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
    27. Re:why is the Via C7 not more popular? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      you're comparing a bare DC-powered embedded board which doesn't even have a NIC with a fully kitted out server? why is this modded up?

    28. Re:why is the Via C7 not more popular? by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      You think the NIC accounts for three orders of magnitude more power consumption? He said idle, so the disks should be spun down and consuming 1-3W each. The BeagleBoard usage includes flash, RAM, CPU, GPU (and DSP), USB controller, and remains under 1W even under heavy load. The Atom CPU consumes more power when idle than an entire BeagleBoard system (minus monitor) does under full load.

      --
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    29. Re:why is the Via C7 not more popular? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What are you using AES encryption for, hard disk encryption? If so, this is a little unusual for a server, which are normally found in secure facilities, but make sense for a home perhaps.

      Except when a drive fails and you have to return it to the vendor (though some offer "no return" part replacements).

      There's also the fact that it will be retired sometime, at which point you have to make sure it's wiped before hand (or trust the vendor will do it).

      If you want offsite, offline backup you have have to worry about data-at-rest encryption. This is handled in hardware with LTO-4 tapes, but if want to carry disks outside the secure facility you have to start worrying about it as well.

    30. Re:why is the Via C7 not more popular? by FuckingNickName · · Score: 1

      Wotcha. I'm glad the thread's received quite a bit of interest!

      (1) Why "should" disks be spun down on an idle server? It's not like CPU which can pretty much instantly switch between power modes: an HDD takes time to spin up and spin down, and its life is decreased in doing so. You may decide to spin down drives, but only after a sufficient period of idling. If you really want to save power, an idle server "should" be asleep with WakeOnLan enabled.

      (2) The BeagleBoard has 128MB of what looks to be on-chip memory, which is of course going to be lower power than if you need to route to a separate connector and fit off-the-shelf DIMMs. But it is an unreasonably small amount for a server, which benefits from a large disk cache - especially when it needs to decrypt what it reads from the drives but can keep memory unencrypted.

      (3) The 256MB NAND flash might be useful for a root filesystem (what's the wear-levelling algorithm on this thing?), but it's hopeless for server storage. It's true that flash is going to idle much more efficiently than an HDD, and it's one of the things I raised in OP.

      (4) Could you give an example where the "Atom CPU when idle" is consuming more power than a BeagleBoard "system"? I'm not sure what sort of system you mean, but I'm obviously talking about a NAS.

      That 50W is three orders of magnitude greater than 50mW is entirely irrelevant. The draw of the CPU/mobo isn't so dominant in a typical system, and you're comparing one comparatively low horsepower CPU on a low feature board with a more powerful CPU on a board with enough expandability to be applied as a small desktop/server.

      The BeagleBoard is still cool, of course, but for other things. And if you compared power draw of a bare VIA mobo with the BeagleBoard, I'd expect the latter to win out.

    31. Re:why is the Via C7 not more popular? by afidel · · Score: 1

      50W idle is frankly unimpressive for such an underpowered rig. I'm running an Athlon x2 4200, 4GB of ram, 2x HDD's, tv tuner, NVidia 9600 GSO and I idle under 50W (max is about 150W).

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    32. Re:why is the Via C7 not more popular? by FuckingNickName · · Score: 1

      Which motherboard, drives, PSU? Is everything spinning?

      I'm not surprised to hear that idle performance is excellent on a modern desktop CPU, and I've heard similar achievements with a single desktop HDD. The 45mm Core 2 Duos also idle very efficiently, but shoot up under load with no hardware acceleration to mitigate.

      I know that I'm unlikely to get readings much below current unless I switch to a PicoPSU or similar, because inefficiencies in a desktop PSU shoot right up at very low power output.

    33. Re:why is the Via C7 not more popular? by michael_cain · · Score: 1

      Agree that it's unimpressive. My Mac Mini running a 1.8 GHz Core 2 Duo, 2 GB RAM, built-in drive, assorted USB peripherals including a second drive, all running through a UPS, typically measures 5-7W at the wall when idling. From time to time I've tried to load it up so that everything is in use and the processors are pegged, but have never gotten above 70W, again measured at the wall. The graphics capabilities are pretty anemic, which may make a substantial difference relative to many systems. OS X appears to be rather aggressive about getting into that 5-7W mode.

    34. Re:why is the Via C7 not more popular? by FuckingNickName · · Score: 1

      There is absolutely no way that you're reading 5W at the wall with one Core 2 Duo plus two spinning drives, sorry. If one of these is a 7200rpm+ desktop drive, 5W+ will be needed to spin one drive. I'm running 4 year old but stably performing WD SE16 drives, and I know I could do better, but not this well.

    35. Re:why is the Via C7 not more popular? by Aranykai · · Score: 1

      I did also considering a bone stock 200$ eeepc 900 series draws only 36 watts under full load. Hook that up to an external monitor and keyboard and you have something much more efficient for web browsing use. Toss in an external hard disk and you're all set to go.

      --
      If sharing a song makes you a pirate, what do I have to share to be a ninja?
    36. Re:why is the Via C7 not more popular? by FuckingNickName · · Score: 1

      The EeePc's 36W full load is quite similar to the C7's 55W, recalling that the latter has two 3.5" drives and various fans rather than SSD. If a casual browsing machine were what's required, they'd both be fit for purpose following de-moving-part-ification of the C7.

      Others have mentioned laptops (including the Mac Mini, which is just half a laptop) as requiring less power. Well, yes - the aim isn't to find the lowest power machine with storage and net connectivity, as then my 4 AA cell powered ARM-based HP 50G calculator would shine. For it takes SD cards and has a TCP/IP stack written for it :-). Actually, the 8088-compatible Psion Series 3a would do better: it has a nicer keyboard than most palmtops and a screen which has lasted two decades without deterioration. Two AAs, *two* flash slots - albeit proprietary.

    37. Re:why is the Via C7 not more popular? by michael_cain · · Score: 1

      Good points, and an apples-to-apples comparison is always difficult. While billed as a desktop, many of the Mini components are parts designed for mobile systems. Internal hard disk is 2.5", as is the external USB drive, and both spin down after a long enough period with no activity. Unused hardware components get powered off. The Core 2 Duo allows parts of the on-chip hardware to be shut down as well. The OS does as much with clock rates and voltage as it can, and does so aggressively. Some of Apple's literature says that the OS will, under the right conditions, slow things down between keystrokes.

      Apple claims 13W idle for the new Minis (mine is a few years old now), but I consistently come in at about half that after its been sitting for several minutes. Arguably, it's not really "idling", but might be considered a semi-sleep state of some sort.

    38. Re:why is the Via C7 not more popular? by sznupi · · Score: 1

      Many latest Intel processors also include AES acceleration: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AES_instruction_set (too bad Intel, as is usual with them, castrates low-end too excessively)

      While not really beneficial over Via in NAS scenarios, I guess you would be happy if your next laptop had such CPU...

      --
      One that hath name thou can not otter
  5. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  6. North bridge, not so much... by Hurricane78 · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Of course you set records, when most of your CPU actually sits in your north bridge. Yes. That thing with the large heat sink and fan, is the north bridge. Not the CPU. The CPU is that smaller chip that you thought were the NB.

    It’s a fraud. Nothing else. A trick to hide their failure to get even in the same magnitude as ARM.

    --
    Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
    1. Re:North bridge, not so much... by VulpesFoxnik · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Here here!

      If any one attempted this test with a Arm Cortex 9A with the full 4 cores, this would be blown out of the water easily.

      --
      RES PUBLICA NON DOMINETUR
    2. Re:North bridge, not so much... by washu_k · · Score: 1

      What the hell are you talking about? The north bridge does not contain most of the CPU. Yes, the Atom is often paired with an inefficient north bridge which requires a fan, but that's it. If what you said was true then Nvidia's ION (which replaces the north bridge) would be impossible.

      The newer Pineview Atoms do combine the Northbridge and CPU. Again this is nothing speical or any trickery, AMD has been doing this for years. You would again be wrong in your description if it was a Pineview in that the small chip is just the south bridge, not the CPU.

  7. All thanks to Ninnle! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Troll

    What the article fails to mention is the usage of the latest version of Ninnle Linux, nicely optimized for Atom processors. (I'm using it right here on this netbook.) Thanks to Ninnle, the system could be properly optimized, something that cannot happen within the current Windoze framework.

    1. Re:All thanks to Ninnle! by del_diablo · · Score: 1

      Ok, a windows tool on a unix platform? Woot?
      But seriously when you move on.... does that mean that we could actually have tested this with a quad core ARM? I think we have a winner.

    2. Re:All thanks to Ninnle! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well...it's simple really. It's actually a DOS utility, and you have to fire up a NinnleDOS session within your Ninnle Linux. W00t!

  8. Hand-Optimizing for architecture by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I had a few lectures with prof. Sanders, and as far as I remember, they try to optimize as much as possible for the target architecture by hand.
    As impressive as this feat is, it is in no way generic or usable across multiple architectures as far as I remember, but I am very willing to be proven wrong.

  9. How are you sure they'll last that long? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It's easy for some marketing fools to say, "Oh, for sure, it'll last 5 to 10 years." It's easy for them to print those claims on the product packaging, too. But marketing claims don't, of course, have any real impact on the lifespan of a product.

    We heard the same claims for CD-Rs years back. They'd last 99 years, we'd often hear. Now, less than 10 years later, people who backed up data onto CD-Rs are running into problems. Even when storing the burned CD-Rs properly, they have nevertheless developed unrecoverable read errors because they've degraded many times faster than expected.

    Frankly, we can't say that these SSD drives will last 5-10 years straight, while saturated, especially while they really haven't been around for that long. Unless you've actually taken a drive and had it perform writes continuously for a decade, and can demonstratively provide that the drives will last that long before performance degrades, we have to assume the worst.

    1. Re:How are you sure they'll last that long? by del_diablo · · Score: 1

      So lets assume it takes 3 years of proper use(massive torrenting of porn and deleting it afterwards) to reach the performance of a normal slow HD?

    2. Re:How are you sure they'll last that long? by FlyingBishop · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I think we can safely say that you can saturate it for a couple years, as I imagine someone has done that and not had any issues.

      Though I haven't seen the data, I think if someone consistently showed SSDs dying at a year of saturation (which is far more than you will usually have) it would make news.

    3. Re:How are you sure they'll last that long? by trickyD1ck · · Score: 1

      Frankly, we can't say that these SSD drives will last 5-10 years straight

      Frankly, we can't say anything about many things. If the risk of a gadget failing withing 5-10 years is unbearable, buy insurance against it.

    4. Re:How are you sure they'll last that long? by PalmKiller · · Score: 1

      This is probably true, but it will most likely outlast most hard disks.

      But it is also true that many hard disks die after a couple of years average now, sometimes less...especially those that come in the pre-built retail computer systems. In some cases if you try to use the hard disk manufacturers warranty directly, they will tell you no and suggest you call system manufacturer that sold it to you (makes me wonder if the drives are refurbs or seconds, or perhaps they were spec'd out to be cheaper models), but i digress.

      This is more like 6 months to a year in a laptop that is used on the road as they are most likely gonna get banged around or bumped from time to time, and used at varying angles and so forth.

    5. Re:How are you sure they'll last that long? by Xiterion · · Score: 1

      You have very valid concerns over the life of solid state media, and in general I share your cynicism concerning marketing claims, however the core technology for solid state drives is a lot older than the drives themselves. Flash memory and associated wear out aren't brand new problems, and the claims for SSD life aren't that outrageous given current flash memory tech. At least clueful people are in the habit of not trusting single drives for storage of data they care about...

    6. Re:How are you sure they'll last that long? by More_Cowbell · · Score: 1

      I have nothing to add to the debate, but I love that you define proper SSD use as "(massive torrenting of porn and deleting it afterwards)".
      Kudos, good sir.

      --
      Experience teaches only the teachable. -AH
    7. Re:How are you sure they'll last that long? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So lets assume it takes 3 years of proper use(massive torrenting of porn and deleting it afterwards) to reach the performance of a normal slow HD?

      WHAT, they get faster the more you write??

      What you are forgetting is that SSD are much faster at random-reads than HD, but much much slower in writes and generally slower in sustained read too.

    8. Re:How are you sure they'll last that long? by jgagnon · · Score: 1

      Frankly, we can say anything about anything... and some of us would mean everything we say.

      That does not, however, mean we know what the hell we are talking about.

      --
      Remember to maintain your supply of /facepalm oil to prevent chafing.
    9. Re:How are you sure they'll last that long? by DiegoBravo · · Score: 1

      > Unless you've actually taken a drive and had it perform writes continuously for a decade

      Not true at all. That's why people does statistical modeling. The failure rate usually follows a exponential distribution, so you could calibrate their behavior in a fraction of time by analyzing a big set of disks.

    10. Re:How are you sure they'll last that long? by Anpheus · · Score: 1

      The bigger problem is write fragmentation. I have a one year old SSD (Intel X25-M, first generation) with about 15 gigabytes of writes per day and earlier this year I had to do a secure wipe on it to reset the fragmentation tables. With TRIM support this problem should go away.

      I would really like to know when RAID controllers start supporting TRIM though, and when it'll be possible to hook up a readzilla/logzilla SSD like Sun has to a server to serve as a large second level cache and non-volatile write log.

  10. System power is what they measure by Xocet_00 · · Score: 3, Informative

    They measure the power at the wall and not on the CPU specifically, so there's no 'fraud' going on. Putting processing elements on the north bridge does nothing to gain this system an advantage. Reading the contest rules, they recommend power meters like this: http://www.brandelectronics.com/meters.html

  11. Meme built into the summary... by MiniMike · · Score: 1

    ...leading one of its developers to claim: 'In the long run, many small, power-efficient and cooperating systems are going to replace the so far used, heavy weighted ones.'

    They're imagining the Beowulf clusters for us...

    1. Re:Meme built into the summary... by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

      This is more like a Gimli cluster.

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
  12. Dangerous Metric by eabrek · · Score: 1

    Records / joule might be interesting to some people, but it is a dangerous metric overall.

    Why?

    Because it ignores time.

    It is accounted for somewhat in that there will be some power draw for spinning disks, or leakage; but all-in-all not good.

  13. Personally I hope this catches on by PalmKiller · · Score: 1

    as this could drive the prices of ssd devices way down if big number crunching outfits decide to go with the solid state disks.

  14. Suspicious by bytesex · · Score: 1

    Jim Gray, Tim Bray... hm. Has anyone ever seen them in the same room together ?

    --
    Religion is what happens when nature strikes and groupthink goes wrong.
  15. Imagine what a cluster of ARM CPUs can do by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Similar performance, 1/10 the power consumption.

  16. some data farms exploring cell-phone netbook chips by peter303 · · Score: 1

    The Total Cost of Operation of a data center is more than half facilities and power than the chips. It looks to be more economical (TCO) to use low-power chips, and more of them, over the long run.

  17. Not most energy efficient sorting by vaebnkehn · · Score: 1

    This assumes that we are limiting ourselves to digital media: You can sort any number of coins using no energy at all (besides gravity). http://www.algodoo.com/algobox/details.php?id=27217

  18. Re:some data farms exploring cell-phone netbook ch by rrohbeck · · Score: 1

    But you'll have less density in terms of computing power, which means more racks and more floor space. I think the trend is toward higher power density. Once you add real estate costs, it is cheaper to run everything on fewer high powered CPUs than many Atoms although it may be less power efficient.

  19. Re:some data farms exploring cell-phone netbook ch by symbolset · · Score: 1

    hmm... A Cortex A8 with 64 floating point units and a video unit capable of 1080p encode on a card that measures 72mm by 50mm. This could be interesting.

    --
    Help stamp out iliturcy.