Hacker Will Try To Restore Linux Support On PS3

Many readers have been sending in news of the impending PS3 firmware update that will remove the ability to install other operating systems on the console. (We discussed it here on Sunday.) Over the past few days, legions of PS3 owners have been voicing their anger at Sony's decision, upset that they'll be forced to either lose their custom install or forgo use of the PlayStation Network and be unable to play certain games and movies. Now, hacker George Hotz, known for his iPhone jailbreaks and his PS3 hack earlier this year, has vowed to fight back and restore Linux support on the PS3. He said, "The PlayStation 3 is the only product I know that loses features throughout its lifecycle. Software PS2 emulation, SACD playback, and OtherOS support are all just software switches you can flip. It's unbelievable you would go and flip one, not just on new boxes you are shipping, but on tens of millions already in the field."

Comments

And Sony will respond by...

[Lunix Nutcase]

And Sony will respond by banning these people from PSN for hacking the PS3. Or does this person really think that Sony won't be checking such a thing when you connect to PSN?

Re:And Sony will respond by...

[houstonbofh]

And people still ask why I refuse to buy a console... I just will not buy hardware I am not allowed to own.

Re:And Sony will respond by...

[Runefox]

Actually, it's worth mentioning that the only core available up front is a single PowerPC core, with 256MB of RAM. It's possible to expand the RAM by adding the VRAM to swap space, and to unlock some SPE's (I can't recall how many, but you aren't given access to all of them), but it's also necessary to program specifically for them; They have their own architecture.

While for computational tasks, it's fairly moot, the GPU is also entirely locked down and inaccessible. Even available screen resolutions are, as I understand it and as I recall, restricted by the hypervisor. Having tried running Xubuntu on the PS3, I can safely say that its usability is very limited. However... It's there. And it works. While not everyone benefits from the use of OtherOS, those who do benefit for very specific reasons.

It's very likely that this firmware update, while not entirely mandatory, will be mandatory (or at least, its descendants will be) with later games and for PSN access, much like homebrewed PSP's using older custom firmware are SOL when trying to play newer games - The user is forced between parting with the CFW or not playing the newer games at all. Personally, I'll keep my CFW - My PSP gets a huge amount of usage in homebrew apps (and really, at this point, saying that I don't pirate games would be redundant seeing as it's more or less impossible or at least incredibly impractical). Hell, Opera Mini and eBuddy Mobile on my PSP? With some apps capable of multitasking? Holy crap. I look forward to a healthy homebrew scene on the PS3, even if it takes until the console is out of production. It's easily capable of becoming an incredibly robust media centre unit, or even more.

Re:And Sony will respond by...

[prockcore]

You think Sony is going to win. You are wrong. Look at how long the cat-and-mouse game over the PSP has continued. They are not capable of keeping people out of hardware they own.

I'd say they were very capable. It took 5 years for the PS3 to get its first hack. 2 weeks for Sony to patch it. Who's to say it won't take another 5 years?

Re:And Sony will respond by...

[SuperDre]

5 years? the PS3 is only 3.5 years old (in the US, and 3 years in the EU), and you call removing a complete feature 'patching? and Geohot only looked at it for not even 3 months and got where he was when he first announced the hack, also he was going for RSX support under linux, not piracy. But now because of what Sony does tomorrow he is going for customfirmware, and if there is someone who can do it, it's him, the only problem is that his 'customfirmware' will in the end lead to piracy.. So Sony is better of just leaving OtherOs in there (and even add support for RSX) so the hacking isn't needed anymore, which will put the 'smartpeople' to rest because they can do with the PS3 what they want, and the PS3 is safe from piracy for yet another long time. Never underestimate a very small dedicaded group of people after you take something away from them which they used....

Heh

[Aphoxema]

In the interest of openness, I've decided to release the exploit. Hopefully, this will ignite the PS3 scene [...]

Looks like the fires need a little more than that to get lit, but there's a lot of pissed off users now with torches just aching to start a blaze.

Sony had to see this coming, now we just have to see if they'll try to litigate their way out of it or own up.

Re:Heh

[Princeofcups]

In the interest of openness, I've decided to release the exploit. Hopefully, this will ignite the PS3 scene [...]

Looks like the fires need a little more than that to get lit, but there's a lot of pissed off users now with torches just aching to start a blaze.

Sony had to see this coming, now we just have to see if they'll try to litigate their way out of it or own up.

I love the way that slashdot geeks think that they are the average user. The number of linux installs on PS3 is so small that there's no reason for Sony to continue to support it, basically a few high computing centers and a few hackers, as opposed to the millions of gamers who have no idea it's even there. And yes there is a reason to turn it off. To remove it from the list of features that need to be supported going forward.

I'm really surprised that it lasted this long.

Re:Heh

[sopssa]

And yes there is a reason to turn it off. To remove it from the list of features that need to be supported going forward.

I'm really surprised that it lasted this long.

There's even a bigger reason than that - the guy mentioned in this summary too exploited the OtherOS feature (with burning the PS3 hardware to cause kernel panic and subsequent escalate to PS3 code) and it would possibly allow piracy on PS3. It's obvious that now Sony will disable that feature from the few geeks to keep the system secure. You can thank this guy for ruining it for everyone.

Re:Heh

[Aladrin]

Sony has forgotten something important. One of the ways that piracy hacks come to be is people hacking the hardware to install Linux or some other random thing. Now that Sony doesn't support it, it's like throwing down the glove and daring them to hack it. Once the hacks exist, it's just a matter of time until they're used for piracy.

This is really a tremendously bonehead move.

Re:Heh

[houstonbofh]

I love the way that slashdot geeks think that they are the average user. The number of linux installs on PS3 is so small that there's no reason for Sony to continue to support it...

There is a difference between not supporting it, and forbidding it. And while the people doing it, are a minority, they are a vocal minority of early adopters. Ya know... The folks that made it popular in the first place.

Re:Heh

[Aphoxema]

but there's a lot of pissed off users now with torches just aching to start a blaze.

Which amount to what? 1% or less of the total PS3 owners?

I would say even less. Maybe 0.01%. I would really like this feature but it wont turn me off from PS3 - it's media streaming is superb compared to 360 and generally I feel nicer to play games on it. I didn't buy PS3 to run a Linux - I bought it to play games. If i wanted to run Linux or such, I would had just build such box (like I have).

I bought a PS3 for the same reason, but how long might it be until they retract a feature you are concerned about?

Re:Heh

[DarkOx]

True, slasdoters tend to way over estimate the collective moral outrage that exists out there in the world beyond this website. There needs to be some acceptance of reality that its very unlikely you are going to make $COMPANY pay!

Still I totally understand the frustration. There are lots of comments to the effect here to of: I did not buy a $PRODUCT to do $TASK, where task is something other then the most common application. Still if you bought something that advertised $FEATURE its not at all unreasonable to expect to be able to use it for that, and its a little unfair for the vendor to come along after and say "well no you can't do that anymore."

Its not like you can just not apply the new firmwares either, because if you don't you can't run the latest games. Lots of people probably did buy a PS3 expecting that they could run Linux AND native PS3 software. If Sony wants to be a responsible vendor (and they have proved time and time again, at virtually every opportunity they are not) they would support the full feature set for the life cycle of the product.

What people have to start doing is being personally responsible enough to assess the past behavior of vendors and decide if that and the merits of the product make the purchase worth while. I have been burned by Sony enough times that I WILL NOT BUY their products even when they are light years ahead of the competition because I know I will end the end be treated badly by them.

You can sell me awful hardware if your customer service is good enough. If I feel like you care about my problems and you're solving them quickly and painlessly when they happen, I will put up with a lot of problems. If you pull Sony type BS all the time than forget it, I don't want to do business with you becuase I know when I do have a problem its going be misery, even if there will be few problems.

Re:Heh

[Aphoxema]

Don't try to slippery slope argue support into existence. Yeah, they came for the OtherOS and I said nothing because I didn't care. That isn't likely to have any effect on my ability to play God of War 3 any time soon. If they come for the God of War 3 players, I hereby grant you license to mock me. If they don't... well, yeah. They won't.

"Slippery Slope" isn't a definite fallacy; let's look at the history. They've already killed off backwards compatability (software emulation, not just the Emotion engine stuff), SACD (An invention of Sony's own) and now GNU/Linux (Other OS whatever). There's a trend developing, though I'm not terribly clear what the point is.

Re:Heh

[The End Of Days]

Linux geeks have never, in the history of the universe, made anything popular. Sony made the PS3 popular, in part by dropping the "Other OS" crap on the floor and concentrating on getting games out the door. Cause ya know... it's a game console.

Re:Heh

[exomondo]

The amount of different organizations buying ps3 for research is staggering. So don't think this won't effect their bottom line. US Army buys them in bulk lots of 1000-2000 at a time.

And how many games - you know the place where the console maker makes money - are they buying? I don't know how much they are losing now (if any) but on the phat PS3s (the ones that support linux) sony were losing a significant amount on each console sold. So all these research firms using the PS3 cost Sony a shitload of money.

And Legions of other PS3 users...

[Anonymous Coward]

express their total disinterest and get back to playing God of War whatever.

Thanks for coming.

Sony is the new Apple.

[amnesiacopera]

While I love the products of both companies, they are becoming ridiculous control freaks. I'm not sure that I'll be buying any more products from either Apple or Sony.

Re:Sony is the new Apple.

[toleraen]

took the music player market by storm with the iPod

iPod, meet Walkman and Discman. Just sayin'.

Its not just sony

[JustNiz]

>> The PlayStation 3 is the only product I know that loses features throughout its lifecycle.

Presuming youre talking about artificial limitations, Microsoft have been doing it for years.
For example, I can watch Blu-ray under XP. No such luck with Vista or Windows 7 thanks to the extra DRM and my non-hdcp monitor.

Re:Its not just sony

[Lunix Nutcase]

No such luck with Vista or Windows 7 thanks to the extra DRM and my non-hdcp monitor.

That's funny. I watch Blu-Rays just fine on both my Vista and Windows 7 machines which only connect to my monitor via DVI. Or are you one of those idiots who actually uses crappy playback software like PowerDVD to play Blu-Rays?

Re:Its not just sony

[Anonymous Coward]

>> The PlayStation 3 is the only product I know that loses features throughout its lifecycle.

Presuming youre talking about artificial limitations, Microsoft have been doing it for years.
For example, I can watch Blu-ray under XP. No such luck with Vista or Windows 7 thanks to the extra DRM and my non-hdcp monitor.

(emphasis mine)

Those are separate products.

Re:Its not just sony

[Lunix Nutcase]

n that case your monitor must either support HDCP,

Nope.

or your not running at full 1080p

Nope.

or you've got something like AnyDVD HD installed.

Yep.

Re:Its not just sony

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

or you've got something like AnyDVD HD installed.

Yep.

Which makes this entire sub-thread just another internet penis measuring contest.

The only reason you can run AnyDVD is because Slysoft found a loophole in the DMCA and moved to a country that will let them exploit it.
It certainly isn't because of MS that you can watch BDs on vista - it is, in fact, in spite of them. Kinda like the way this hacker wants to re-enable linux on the PS3 in spite of Sony's efforts to the contrary.

April 1st release... c'mon guys

[Umuri]

I'm hoping i can point this out early enough, but the slated released date for this patch is april 1st.
Talk about one of the most successful trolls on the internet today, sony generated a TON of nerd rage on this stunt, it's rather hilarious.

I'll also say that many news stories about this pointed out the obvious fact that it conflicts with a recent statement that sony supports this feature and will continue to preserve it, it seems a fairly obvious april fools joke.

Just saying.

Re:April 1st release... c'mon guys

[CrashandDie]

Wait, wut? Did I get that wrong?

Major corporations don't play April's fools? Seriously? Not even a little bit?

Re:April 1st release... c'mon guys

[Aphoxema]

This whole thing would have been less surreal and controversial if instead of saying "3.21 means no more OtherOS Just Because." they had "Here's this feature the community has been absolutely begging for, and this one, and this one, and this one... oh, by the way, it'll probably disable OtherOS so plan around that."

What they have done is effectively make pre-3.21 fat PS3s high-value items for the people interested in homebrew, backups and "backups". Eventually they'll be cracked, and they'll have cracked firmwares installed on them that will provide all the official features plus the useful things that Sony apparently skipped on doing all this time to release this potentially crippling update.

Oh, and this all assumes that the OtherOS option will even be necessary to mod the system.

Re:April 1st release... c'mon guys

[scribblej]

OK, so we have an ancient BBC thing, Taco Bell, Two BMW ads, and the rest are all google? Seriously, not much of a counterpoint.

PS2 emulation wasn't just software

[Bleek II]

The first Gen PS3s had PS2 hardware in them so that wasn't just a software switch. Though la

Re:PS2 emulation wasn't just software

[Endymion]

The so-called "software emulation" was only for the Emotion Engine chip (ps2's CPU). It still required the Graphics Synthesizer chip (video), which was never software-emulated, and is missing in newer PS3s.

PS2 emulation was not purely software

[grahamwest]

The PS2 backwards compatibility always used a hardware GS (the GPU). They emulated the EE and the VU1s, but not the GS. I'm not sure the cost reduction was really worthwhile, but it's not something they can just flip back on, on machines that don't have it.

Exactly.

[headkase]

I don't believe in walled gardens. Right now the most open environment is Linux or one of the BSD's, Windows comes in next. Apple I wouldn't be surprised if they brought the App Store to OS X and then finished closing everyone else out behind the approving gate. I'm not going to beg permission to run an app, if that means I have to pay with compatibility creep then so be it: the open systems refresh every once in a while as a response to that.

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Re:Who cares?

[Grishnakh]

It's all Sony. If it's a "subsidiary", then there's no such thing as a "separate and distinct"; they're all under the same CEO.

One of the main reasons Sony was so reluctant to support MP3s in its portable electronics was because its music division saw it as supporting piracy.

Well duh

[slimjim8094]

First of all, duh. Of course hackers were going to try and circumvent the restriction. And, like all other types of silly restrictions, it's inevitable that they will succeed.

What I'm more interested in is the lawsuit that should be on its way over this. It was an advertised feature of the PS3, and a not-insignificant number of people bought a PS3 because they could run Linux on it. Hell, a lot of people only bought one to run Linux on it.

If my car used to have a CD changer, and it gets disabled when I bring it in for service, I'd sue. Contracts, EULA be damned - I chose a product because it had a feature, and it got removed after the fact. That's not legal.

Re:Well duh

[bit01]

I disagree that they're liable for disabling that feature.

Of course they are. Depends on what the original sales contract says. Oh, no contract for a normal retail sale? Then normal sales laws apply and I'd be very surprised if those laws allow a vendor to change the conditions after the sale.

They have said that feature might go away in the manual

Irrelevant. That text was only available to the purchaser after the sale was made and many retailers do not offer money back guarantees.

it's not advertised on the box.

Irrelevant. It was advertised.

If they informed all potential purchasers who knew about the other OS option that the functionality might be removed, not just not unsupported, before the sale then they are off the hook. Otherwise no.

It is normal and expected that support will be dropped for a product after a fixed amount of time. It is not normal to expect functionality to be deliberately removed. Sony might have an argument if the PSN were not bundled (in other words it was an ongoing rental contract where ongoing conditions could change, not a one-off sales contract) but even then it's dodgy.

You sound like many salesdroids who thinks that half-truths, lies, deceptions and post-the-fact revisionism are somehow okay. You're mistaken.

---

DRM breaks ownership, the basis of capitalism and the free market.

Re:Who cares?

[Lunix Nutcase]

It's all Sony. If it's a "subsidiary", then there's no such thing as a "separate and distinct"; they're all under the same CEO.

No, actually SCE has it's own CEO, Kazuo Hirai. Sony Music has it's own chairman and there is another chairman and CEO of Sony Corporation. You also seem to be profoundly ignorant about how conglomerates are run. They are basically made up of mostly autonomous units.

Re:Tech users motivated this move

[Aphoxema]

[...] despite this Sony got nothing but flack from technical users from the PS3 since launch.

They do not speak for all of us. I had great respect for Sony's relative generosity with a gaming console.

it's not the only console to lose features

[YesIAmAScript]

XBox 360 lost the subscription feature for demos with the NXE. It also will lose online play for Xbox games when Live for original Xbox in two weeks.

I can't think of any older consoles that lost features with software updates, although many lost features in new versions, most notably progressive component out removed from Gamecube.

Letter to Sony

[Vanderhoth]

For anyone who's interested I wrote a letter to Sony Customer Support about this. Here is the letter I received as a response. Names were removed

Discussion Thread
Response (xxxxxxxxxxxx) 03/30/2010 04:38 PM
Hello xxxxxxx,

Thank you for writing us with your concerns for the upcoming firmware release and it's features.

The Playstation®User agreement states that we may update the system which may change the operating system.

11. MAINTENANCE AND UPGRADES
From time to time, it may become necessary for SCEA to provide certain content to you to ensure that PlayStation(R)Network and content offered through Playstation®Network, your PlayStation®3 computer entertainment system, the PSP® (PlayStation®Portable) system or other SCEA-authorized hardware is functioning properly in accordance with SCEA guidelines. Some content may be provided automatically without notice when you sign into Playstation®Network. Such content may include automatic updates or upgrades which may change your current operating system, cause a loss of data or content or cause a loss of functionalities or utilities. Such upgrades or updates may be provided for system software for your PlayStation®3 computer entertainment system, the PSP® (PlayStation®Portable) system, or other SCEA-authorized hardware. Access or use to any system software is subject to terms and conditions of a separate end user license agreement found at http://www.us.playstation.com/termsofuse. You authorize SCEA to provide such content and agree that SCEA shall not be liable for any damages arising from provision of such content or maintenance services. It is recommended that you regularly back up any data located on the hard disk that is of a type that can be backed up.

If you'd like to read the full user agreement, you may do so at the link below:

Article Title: Terms of Use and User Agreement
Article Link: http://playstation.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/1109


Regards,
xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Re:Letter to Sony

[Aphoxema]

I'll summarize...

"Fuck you."

Re:Letter to Sony

[blowfly7012]

In UK and EU law, EULAs cannot override the statutory rights of consumers enshrined in law. Lots of people (including myself) bought a PS3 to play games and install Linux. Both were advertised features at the time. Sony shouldn't be able to hold either one of them to ransom.

PS3 Cluster

[J05H]

As a member of the PS3Cluster team I would like to say that Sony's cutting off of 3rd party OSes from their platform is going to impact the Air Force, UMass Dartmouth and other organizations using PS3 hardware as massively parallel clusters for scientific computing. This goes far beyond the home-brew market.

We've been covered here before:
http://tech.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/12/17/2251232

Re:PS3 Cluster

[khchung]

Care to explain why those clusters have to get the latest updates? So the development team can play after office hours?

The only impact would be replacing the hardware, but then the latest slim version already did not support other OSes, so if that is a problem, shouldn't it have been happening already?

Re:PS3 Cluster

[shaitand]

Firmware updates aren't just to play the latest games, they also fix critical bugs in the firmware.

Games may not be important to massive clusters but critical bug fixes are.

Re:First DUH!!

[CronoCloud]

You're thinking of the EU PS2 version of YaBasic, not Linux on the PS2 or PS3 which came after the special EU tarriff was eliminated.

Re:Who cares?

[shaitand]

I used to work for Sony Electronics, or rather Sony Customer Information Service Center, a subsidiary of Sony Electronics, which in turn is (or was, they could have restructured) a subsidiary of Sony America, which was in turn a subsidiary of the Sony Corporation.

The divisions do indeed have their own executives but at the end of the day those lines were drawn for legal and tax reasons. The CISC most definitely did what it was told by Sony Electronics and Sony Electronics heeds the concerns of Sony Pictures and Sony Music on its gadgets when Sony America tells them to.

In fact, if there were no Sony Pictures or Sony Music, Sony Electronics would give DRM and copy protection mechanisms the finger since it would without question improve sales... At least that's what the CEO told me once at lunch.

By the way, the CEO's of these major branches are typically trusted individuals from the home corp in Japan.

Letter to Sony

[cheros]

Dear Sony, if an update to my machine will disable the "install other OS" feature in my PS/3 I will guarantee you that I will have it reported to every possible authority that I can think off and ensure it is followed up.

For a start, IT IS A DOCUMENTED FACILITY. It's on the manual, and I will make pictures of "before" and "after". This means it's something I paid for. Removing it without my permission is (a) theft and (b) a violation of trade description - you can't take something away which has influenced my decision to buy without expecting this to have repercussions. It would be equivalent to selling me a full stereo set and take away the speakers after I bought it so I'd have to spend extra money to buy those.

Secondly, YOU CANNOT FORCE MY COMPLIANCE. If you make acceptance of a trade description violation dependent on, well, a trade description violation (the device should be capable of Bluray playback even with the new code you plan to implement) you will lose double. The sort of coercion is AFAIK illegal in most countries.

So, here's your one and only warning: if I either find the facility gone, or find me unable to play a Bluray disc you WILL be facing the music, if you pardon the pun.

Oh, FYI, I don't use the feature, this is a matter of principle. It would be rather nice if Sony for once thought about the *customer* before doing things. I accept that is a wholly novel and far too innovative concept for Sony, but believe me, the pain is worth it. That's what made the Nintendo Wii such a hit. Learn from it.