Geohot Brings Other OS Support To PS3 With Custom Firmware

suraj.sun tips news that hacker Geohot is following through on his promise to fight Sony's removal of the "Install Other OS" feature on the PS3. He posted a video of the work he's done so far that shows a PS3 console booting into Linux. Quoting Engadget: "While it's not available to the public just yet, Geohot's 3.21OO custom firmware will apparently be simple to install and, as you can see in the video after the break, it works just as you'd expect and simply restores the 'other OS' option to its previous place. Geohot even says that the custom firmware might actually enable the other OS feature on the PS3 Slim, but he hasn't yet had a chance to try it out."

Comments

Ha.

[Anonymous Coward]

Say hello to 3.21.01 counter-updates from Sony soon. The battle doesn't end.

Re:Ha.

[WrongSizeGlass]

Is there a chance that Sony will learn something from this? Will they embrace this as a chance to let those who want 'Other OS' support bad enough have it? If they do it let's them off the hook regarding any warranty support for the 'fat' PS3's.

Re:Ha.

[Anonymous Coward]

I hope he goes further than just restoring the other os feature.

Hacking the PS3 to run 'backup' games would be a suitable punishment for sony imho

Re:Ha.

[cb95amc]

Learn something?......This is still Sony we are talking about isn't it?

Re:Ha.

[mejogid]

Which would be precisely the reason they made this change in the first place and does nothing but prove them right. If you want to stick it to the man (as with all piracy), don't buy their products, send them an email and maybe try to draw some media attention to the issue. Sure the impact might be small, but at least it's a positive one.

Pirating just convinces the corporations that stricter anti-piracy measures are the answer, and frankly they may have a point in this case given console vs PC piracy rates. If you don't think the game's worth what those who made it are asking for, show some self restraint and *don't buy it* rather than ruining things for the rest of us.

Re:Ha.

[Anonymous Coward]

If they do it let's them off the hook regarding any warranty support for the 'fat' PS3's.

Learn something?......This is still Sony we are talking about isn't it?

Force users to 'mod' their systems resulting in voided warranties? Sounds like something that's in Sony's repertoire.

Re:Ha.

[Vanderhoth]

The PS3 was the only console not hacked for piracy. I bought my fat PS3 because of Linux support, Sony was underhanded and took that away. I think they deserve to lose out on some profits because of the disrespect they showed their paying customers. IMHO, no one hacked the PS3 because Sony was being semi-open and allowing people to use a piece of hardware the bought for something they wanted to use it for.

I won't be spending anymore money on Sony products or PS3 games in general, but I'm pissed off they took something I have already paid for away.

I sent e-mails and complained in forums and to the BBB. What I got back from Sony was a quote of Section 11 from the EULA saying they have the right to change the way their console, that's taking up space in my den, at anytime. The BBB sent me response saying "We're investigating".

Dispute what Sony did to screw me and all other PS3 Linux users over if you wanted to continue to hack the PS3 all you had to do was not update. So did what they do really effect someone trying to open the console for piracy? NO.

Re:Ha.

[Anonymous Coward]

Sure it's underhanded. But when you bought your PS3, you owned it at that time, with all its features. However, in order to get the latest features and play the latest games you have to update. If you choose not to update you can do whatever the hell you want with your PS3, but by agreeing to update you agree to whatever they put in the firmware update. That's the way I see it at least.

Re:Ha.

[sortius_nod]

The whole point of the removal was to thwart Gehot's efforts on the PS3 hack.

I'm not 100% on this, but I really don't see Sony taking this lightly. They want to remain unhacked, so this is the way they see fit.

To me, this expands the base of people hacking their console.

Re:Ha.

[MoonBuggy]

Hacking the PS3 to run 'backup' games would be a suitable punishment for sony imho

Which would be precisely the reason they made this change in the first place and does nothing but prove them right.

I'm inclined to believe that the 'Other OS' functionality did more to prevent copyright infringement than it did to assist it.

There are plenty of very skilled hackers out there who have no interest in copied games, they just want the freedom to use their hardware as they wish, or even just the challenge and the kudos for breaking a supposedly secure system. Once the work is done, however, it is often a relatively simple matter for the same exploits to be used by others to run copied discs.

By giving the hackers (used in the traditional sense of the word) what they wanted in the first place with the 'Other OS' functionality, Sony prevented them from needing to bother cracking the security, and that meant that the pirates didn't have anything to build on. As soon as Sony took that function away, we see exploits to restore it - I don't know how much this is linked to the DRM on the game discs, but my instinct would be that some of the work there has already been done now.

Re:Ha.

[icebraining]

That position is irrelevant. Expecting people to stop copying based on those arguments (regardless of their validity) is naive.

The only real way to stop the majority of file sharers is to make it difficult enough, like the PS3 still is.

So the companies have to make cost analysis and decided what brings in more profit: screwing with your current costumers to gain some file sharers, or lose those file sharers that would pay but make your costumers happier. As long as the first option brings more money, they won't change.

Case in point: why have online music stores stopped distributing songs with DRM? It's because people stopped file sharing music? (yeah, right!)
No, it's because it's more profitable to sell unDRMed music, even if more files get copied.

Re:Ha.

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, aren't you a useful idiot.

Re:Ha.

[Chatterton]

Sorry, but at the time he bought his console, he had access to the Sony network, can plays all of its bought games and OtherOS. Patching it's console mean that he keep access to the network but lose the OtherOS, not patching mean that he lose access to the Sony Network and some of it's games (how insist to access the network), but keep the OtherOS. In the 2 case he lose something that he had pay for.

Re:Ha.

[Anonymous Coward]

not really. without the update you can no longer re-download your already purchased PSN games or extra content - should they become corrupted, nor can you de-authorize your PS3 (DRM nonsense) should you want to move the titles to another machine.
There are well known bugs in the PlayTV DVR add-on that result in drive corruption. The Sony "fix" is to reformat your drive and download all content again. Tough if you don't want the "optional" update in this scenario.

Re:Ha.

[Vanderhoth]

If you choose not to update you can do whatever the hell you want with your PS3

Except use it to play newer games, new BluRay moves, Can't use the media server to watch movies I bought and downloaded and I can't access the PSN to retrieve any DLC I've paid for and need to re-download, sync my trophies, chat and the list goes on.

What I can still do with my PS3 if I don't downgrade it with the 3.21 patch is use Other OS, play PS1 and PS2 games (the fat has backward compatibility) and use the media server to play pirated movies and TV series.

So, the results are I won't be buy any new Sony products, I won't ever be buying any DLC, BluRay or downloadable movies again. This experience has taught me that at anytime any group can take stuff you've bought away so I'm not going to be wasting my money anymore. Sony has lost one paying customer and gained one proponent to piracy.

Re:Ha.

[tepples]

If you want to stick it to the man (as with all piracy), don't buy their products

So I don't want to buy the Sony console, the Microsoft console, or the Nintendo console. Now what product do you recommend for set-top video gaming?

Re:Ha.

[colordev]

another battle that hasn't ended.... is if Geohot is a reincarnated God as some have suggested (mostly until 10 days ago), or a fucking idiot who ruined it for everyone - well since the Sony's announcement... until now.

Re:Ha.

[English French Man]

I'd prefer "Hacking the PS3 to run home-brew games by giving access to the GPU in the other OS functionality". Now I don't own a PS3, but not having access to the GPU under Linux seems frustrating, especially for game developing.

Re:Ha.

[Durzel]

That's ridiculous. How many people who stick modchips in their PS2s, etc are doing it because they want to do homebrew stuff?

How many people interested in this 3.21OO firmware are likely to install it to restore the "Other OS" functionality vs those who would install it if it meant a gateway to playing copied games?

Even if you completely disregard the fact that people jailbreak/unlock/hack stuff to avoid having to pay for games, and that the ability to do these things probably leads to increased sales of the console itself, it's debatable how much money Sony actually make from each PS3 sold - I would presume that the real money comes from the licensing for the games. Consoles themselves have been a loss-leader for years.

Your halcyon belief that "Other OS", homebrew or whatever somehow makes hackers or others that rely upon hackers more altruistic is just plain dumb, sorry. Money talks at the end of the day and if "Other OS" ends up being a gateway to not having to pay $80/£40 for the games you can sure as shit bet those same hackers would work towards that goal.

Re:Ha.

[Anonymous Coward]

The best thing on PS3

Dragon Age

Re:Ha.

[marcansoft]

Quite the contrary, it's not ridiculous, it's true. Sony's good drive security prevented drivechips (which is where the money's at), and Other OS prevented homebrewers from exploiting the system, which inevitably leads to softmod piracy (which is usually developed by people piggybacking on homebrew hackers for all the hard work). Consoles are hacked for homebrew which is then abused for piracy.

I know quite a few console hackers, and until the Slim's release (no Other OS) the interest in breaking out of the Other OS sandbox was near nil.

Re:Ha.

[Vanderhoth]

LOL, I was just thinking that I'm a kid at 30, this AC must be in his 90's. Hay old man would you like some stewed prunes to help dislodge that stick? I kind of wonder if you even know what these new fanged boxes that play moving pictures really are.

Re:Ha.

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, you are a kid at any age with an immature attitude. I am more than 30, but less than 90. Grow up.

Re:Ha.

[flyingfsck]

You don't *have* to upgrade your PS3 software. There is no reason why you cannot keep running a previous Sony version, which still has Linux support.

Re:Ha.

[s0mmie]

A lot of people use modchips to play legally purchased, licensed imports.

Re:Ha.

[Vanderhoth]

Oh that's certainly true, but then I can't use it for the other reasons I bought it. BluRay, Games, Media Server, PSN.

If you think that's a choice here's one I posted later on in the forum. Would you like to be shot in your left or right knee cap? You have a choice and regardless of how painful it is you'll still be able to use the other leg or get a prosthetic one to use them both... Until Sony, I mean I decide to take that too.

Re:Ha.

[Bert64]

However by making copying games difficult, you reduce the usefulness of the device...
Back in the days of the Amiga, i knew lots of people who had a handful of bought and paid for games, and we would share those games between ourselves (ie copy them)... We were schoolkids and couldn't afford to buy all the games but between us we bought a fair few.
Had it not been possible to copy the games, we simply wouldn't have had them, we would have used another platform where game copying was easy. Very few of us had cartridge based consoles for instance, unless they were old ones where the games had become dirt cheap simply because we couldn't afford to have a big library of games.

Re:Ha.

[dr.newton]

There is no reason why you cannot keep running a previous Sony version, which still has Linux support.

Yes, there is. If you update, you lose linux support. If you don't, you lose the ability to play online games.

Nowhere in there is there an option to keep all the features the PS3 currently has. Sony will take something from you, and giving you the rock/hard place choice is not adequate to excuse this.

Re:Ha.

[Anonymous Coward]

How many people who stick modchips in their PS2s, etc are doing it because they want to do homebrew stuff?

A marginal amount, but the pirate-consumers don't have the skills to come up with the hacks themselves. The best console hackers (both on the commercial piracy and hobbyist camps) are not interested in piracy, and as long as they have no motivation to hack a console there are very few credible attempts to do so.

Re:Ha.

[Oldstench]

Not the case with the PS3 though. Games are region free.

Re:Ha.

[Oldstench]

So your argument is that it behooves console makers to make piracy easier on the system so that more systems are sold? You forget to factor in the fact that console hardware is sold at a loss. This means that the company in this example now has a bunch of consoles sold (for a loss in profit) and little money coming in for game sales because of rampant, easy piracy.

Yep, seems like an awesome business model to me.

Re:Ha.

[MoonBuggy]

I think you must've misunderstood my post. I don't doubt that most (but not all) modchips are used for copied games, and that the same goes for custom firmwares or softmods.

I also never suggested that the 'Other OS' feature made anyone more altruistic. I was simply theorising that many of the most skilled hackers are actually those interested in homebrew, not those interested in copying. Once the security has been breached, the copiers then pick up that work for their own ends. If the homebrew community doesn't need to crack the security, it is quite possible that the copiers don't have the skill to do it alone (as is demonstrated, perhaps, by the lack of cracks for the PS3).

As soon as Sony takes out this sanctioned avenue for the homebrew community, they are forced to crack security to reinstate it, as we are seeing here with this unofficial firmware. Once the security has been cracked in one way, it makes it much easier for the copiers to pick up that exploit.

Re:Ha.

[MisterZimbu]

So the companies have to make cost analysis and decided what brings in more profit: screwing with your current costumers to gain some file sharers, or lose those file sharers that would pay but make your costumers happier. As long as the first option brings more money, they won't change.

Much like Sony's hardware and software manufacturers, Sony's costumers are known for their wardrobe malfunctions.

Re:Ha.

[synthparadox]

I beg to differ on their losing profits, this is a purely profitable change for Sony:
Sony loses money on every PS3, and gains money back from licensing games, and their own game sales. They also gain money from PSN. What are you removing from the PS3s? The ability to install another OS. Does that contribute to profits at all? No. In fact, it caters to PS3 supercomputing, which involves buying a sizable number of PS3s (a net loss for Sony) and not buying any games (no profits here), and not even connecting it to the PSN due to bandwidth overhead and since it'll be running a separate OS anyways.

Lets see about risks:

1. Unhappy geeks who are running Linux. These people, btw, probably don't buy as many games since they're not running the PS3 to game all the time. Small loss, but who's going to stop buying games for their ($400+ at the time) fat PS3? Sure they might sell the PS3, but the next person who buys it will definitely buy games for it since no more Linux on it.
2. People who buy PS3s simply to run them as supercomputers. Shedding these people is pure profit.
3. Some hackers now providing firmware cracks. Sony doesn't care - if you brick your PS3 its now no longer under warranty because you've voided it. No risk here.

Basically, no surprise here.

Re:Ha.

[icebraining]

However by making copying games difficult, you reduce the usefulness of the device...

However? That was the first option: "screwing with your costumers to gain some file sharers".

In your case, maybe they would have lost you has a costumer, but people who could afford the games, maybe would buy them if it was difficult to copy.

Like I said, it's not good vs bad. Both options have advantages and disadvantages to the console producers. The more effective way to tip the balance is to refuse to buy DRMed games.

Re:Ha.

[oji-sama]

Anonymous Cowards are not exactly the crowd of wise people most people listen to.

Re:Ha.

[Vanderhoth]

Mostly I agree with the points you raised here. A couple of things I don't think you've thought of are the people who bought the fat PS3 are also the early adopts, the people that keep a product floundering until it catches on. Without them the PS3 would have been dead before it was even released (that's an exaggeration to make a point). Those people are now less likely to buy into the PS4 when it eventually comes out.

The early adopting Linux geeks are also a very vocal, mostly technically inclined, community. Others who aren't so technically inclined get advice from these geeks. I know at least 12 people who bought a PS3 on my recommendation before I found out Sony removed backward compatibility from the console. I also know several other people who bought PS3s because of recommendations made by others.

What this amounts to is a very vocal community that will now not only not recommend a PS3 or PS4, but now have more ammunition against Sony products in general. IMHO, Sony is losing out on sales for TVs, Laptops, BD players, remotes, speakers, monitors, etc..., not just from the geeks, but anyone who seeks advice from them.

Re:Ha.

[MoonBuggy]

Exactly my point, but put much more succinctly. Thank you!

Re:Ha.

[antime]

Sony loses money on every PS3

Are you sure about that? The component costs have come down by a lot since launch (esp. the Blu-ray laser, but also the Cell CPU) and I'd not be surprised at all if they turn a profit nowadays, especially with the Slim. But the big money is certainly in collecting license fees.

Re:Ha.

[Barryke]

Mod parent up!

Re:Ha.

[icebraining]

You forget to factor in the fact that console hardware is sold at a loss.

Actually, that's wrong.

Except that in some cases, the cost of copy protection can effectively kill the console.

See the case of Playstation vs Nintendo 64. The cost of copy protection was one of the main reasons that gave the victory to PS. The N64 cartridge system, although it virtually prevented any piracy, also meant the game copies were much more expensive and space limited. While I personally prefer my N64 to my PSOne, especially due to its more robust construction (having no moving parts in a major plus), it was a very bad business decision.
Of course, current copy protection are different, and don't rely on special hardware per-game copy, but they cost money nevertheless.

Remember that the PS3 (which is the less pirated console) only had one of the game on the top ten list of sales of 2009.

Again, there's always right and always wrong decisions, it's cost analysis.

Re:Ha.

[icebraining]

Sorry, two corrections:

"Actually, that's wrong." ---> "Actually, that's wrong, the Xbox360 may turn a profit: http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/multimedia/display/20061120132150.html"

And

"Again, there are no always right and always wrong decisions, it's cost analysis."

And yes, I know my grammar sucks.

Re:Ha.

[dissy]

That's ridiculous. How many people who stick modchips in their PS2s, etc are doing it because they want to do homebrew stuff?

I won't answer that question as it isn't related to any topic at hand (article, summary, or parent)

However to make it relevant:
  How many people MADE A MODCHIP FROM SCRATCH to stick in their PS2s's because they are doing it to play homebrew stuff?

Zero.

  How many PIRATES made a modchip from scratch to put in their PS2?

Zero. (Arguably One)

Also compare that to the fact that only about 10 people/companies made such chips, and your argument falls down.
10 is not many.

With the prior PS3 firmware, there were zero modchips because the people who CAN make them didn't need to.
SO there are zero pirates using them (as they don't exist to use)

Now that sony removed that feature, the PS3 will fall under the same category as all the other consoles your statement would be closer to the truth about.

Re:Ha.

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

Sure it's underhanded. But when you bought your PS3, you owned it at that time, with all its features. However, in order to get the latest features and play the latest games you have to update. If you choose not to update you can do whatever the hell you want with your PS3, but by agreeing to update you agree to whatever they put in the firmware update. That's the way I see it at least.

He was agreeing to the idea that new features would come along, improving his PS3, as time went by. It was a fair assumption they wouldn't remove the OS support.

The way you see it wouldn't hold up if you were actually faced with it.

Re:Ha.

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, and everyone owns legitimate copies of their "backups" and homebrew isn't just emulators.

No one is fooled, son.

Re:Ha.

[synthparadox]

Sorry, I meant to say "lost" since these only apply to fat PS3s and they've stopped making them. Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PlayStation_3#Model_comparison

Re:Ha.

[Sancho]

You also lose the ability to play some NEW games, as frequently, games require the most recent version of the firmware (at the time of the game's release.)

Which is a pretty big deal, frankly. Because PS3 games aren't advertised as "Sony PS3 with Firmware XX.YY" games. They're advertised as PS3 games.

Re:Ha.

[Anonymous Coward]

Quote: "So I don't want to buy the Sony console, the Microsoft console, or the Nintendo console. Now what product do you recommend for set-top video gaming?"

Answer: Build a PC with a faster CPU, more RAM, bigger hard drive in a Media Center case, buy a XBOX 360 game controller (either USB or buy XBOX wireless receiver for PC), plug it in (or use wireless) and play 99% of the games out there.

Most of the games out there come out to PC sooner or later. And, if you have a recent PC (pretty much any modern one will do with at least an average GPU of say $100) and you got a kick ass set-top-box gaming system.

And the awesome part? Its completely open. You can do whatever the hell you want with it. And its the same price (or cheaper if you are on a budget). And its upgradeable. And did I mention that you can do whatever the hell you want with it?

I was going to buy a PS3 myself, but after I saw that they took the Linux support out, I decided not to buy it. I wanted something that not only can play games, but also allows me to go and watch YouTube, check my e-mail, etc on my TV.

Re:Ha.

[synthparadox]

I agree completely, as evidenced in my first risk point, but anecdotal data does not speak for everyone. People will associate this problem with the PS3, not Sony. Why do you think they even removed "Sony" from almost all of the PS3? You see "Sony" in the "Sony Computer Entertainment of America" but thats about it. You see SCEA and PS3 and "Playstation" everywhere, but its not commonly called the "Sony Playstation 3", just "Playstation 3".

Finally, the very vocal community of Linux geeks are a VERY minor part of the PS3 community, and even smaller part of the gaming community as a whole. The PS3 is first and foremost a gaming machine. If you ask anyone on the street what a PS3 does, the first answer is always play games. Thus, I really believe that this issue will be practically negligible in the PS3's street cred. In fact, you can't even buy new PS3s that can install Linux anymore.

I understand that they are in fact removing functionality - but you bought a gaming machine that happens to be able to use Linux, not a Linux machine that happens to be able to game. People (in general) understand that, and I don't think that if they (the general public) are looking to buy a gaming system, the loss of the ability to install Linux on machines you can't even buy anymore will change their opinion in the least.

Re:Ha.

[Anonymous Coward]

PS3 was developed to allow booting Linux to prevent Australian piracy laws from allowing mod chip production. Apparently this is no longer a problem in Australia.

Re:Ha.

[Sancho]

But you didn't really get homebrew with the OtherOS feature. You got severely restricted access to the hardware. Sure, there were GPL games you could run, and you could write things (that would run on just about any Linux installation on Earth), but you could have done that anyway using a PC.

Re:Ha.

[Vanderhoth]

I have to disagree with you on the Sony-PS3 association issue. If you were to ask anyone what products Sony makes I'd guarantee they'll answer with at least TVs, DVD/BD players and the Playstation. When Sony screws with a high end, at least it use to be, product like the Playstation, which is one of the products Sony is known for I'd be willing to bet people will associate the behavior with Sony, not the PS.

Actually if you look at anyone in the PS forums or here you'll notice they blame Sony, which probably had nothing or very little to do with the decision made by the division that produces the PS in the first place.

I want to agree with your statement that the Linux community using the PS3 is very minor, but I'm really starting to wonder. There are no numbers to figure out how big the community is there are only estimates and all the estimates I've read in various forums put the Linux users in the ~2-3% of users group (there are no solid numbers that I could find), but they've dominated the Sony forums and just about any online publication that mentions the 3.21 update. I suppose it could be like the bat in Ferngully, "Puff up!! Puff up!! They hate it when you do that!". With the shear volume of complaints and buzz more people are going to hear about Sony being the source of the issue at hand then anything else and at the very least people will associate that with TVs and DVD/BD players.

Re:Ha.

[Vanderhoth]

I've also read it was allowed to boot Linux so it could be considered a PC and circumvent EU tax laws. Not that I wouldn't put it past Sony, but it's all speculation as to what their real motives were.

Re:Ha.

[Cajun Hell]

Pirating just convinces the corporations that..

You've already drank their koolaide. For piracy to convince them of anything (whether mistakenly or correctly), piracy would have to have a yoctonewton impact, to be even faintly detectable enough that it could convince them of anything.

Piracy is invisible. It is exerts the exact same market pressure as not buying, because that's what it is. If it's not invisible, then something more than just piracy is going on.

That's how you know, when publishers deploy DRM or other measures against piracy (instead of deploying measures to increase sales), they're not thinking like businessmen. It all comes down to sales, and piracy isn't a factor in sales. But DRM is a factor, and it's not a positive one.

Don't worry about what they're being convinced of, because it's all bullshit. Buy the stuff you like; vote for good things with your wallet. As for the rest, it doesn't matter what you do, whether it's pirate or totally abstain. There does not exist any mechanism to vote against something with your wallet. You're either voting for, or abstaining.

Re:Ha.

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe not, but i think we can all agree here that Sony were the ones who started this war.

They could have just stealth-updated the security of Other OS, maybe even worked a little more on the features of it and perhaps even start selling applications for it in some way, Cloud OS services, whatever.
Instead of this, they killed it off entirely and announced to the whole world it was due to a security reason.
BRILLIANT IDEA SONY, BEST IDEA EVER.

Now they will have hackers all over their asses. Shit literally hit the fan with this update.
They will regret removing that feature, sorely regret it.
Maybe not now, but soon. They just opened up the worst kind of cans you could think of.

Re:Ha.

[blowfly7012]

1. Unhappy geeks who are running Linux. These people, btw, probably don't buy as many games since they're not running the PS3 to game all the time. Small loss, but who's going to stop buying games for their ($400+ at the time) fat PS3? Sure they might sell the PS3, but the next person who buys it will definitely buy games for it since no more Linux on it.

I've bought around 20 games for mine, not including PSN titles. And I run Linux. I'm sure I'm not alone in the geek that plays games camp.

Re:Ha.

[Bert64]

There is no reason consoles have to be sold at a loss. They do so as a bait and switch, lure you in with a cheap console and then overcharge you on the games now that you're locked in.
Also, if they didn't expend so much effort trying to implement anti copying schemes the consoles themselves would actually be cheaper to produce and more reliable.

Re:Ha.

[Anonymous Coward]

Wrong!

What they regret is having it there in the first place.
If the OtherOS was not present, Geohot would have had no way in.

PS3 security is PERFECT. OtherOS was the ONLY hole.

Re:Ha.

[HeronBlademaster]

The 3.21 patch doesn't remove the fat PS3's backward compatibility, does it?

Re:Ha.

[Inner_Child]

Sorry, I meant to say "lost" since these only apply to fat PS3s and they've stopped making them. Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PlayStation_3#Model_comparison

But if they lost money on the fat consoles only, where's the point in "shedding" people who bought them - they're not buying more fat PS3s, and what's done is done.

Re:Ha.

[Oldstench]

$300 - $400 is cheap for a console to you?

Re:Ha.

[Vanderhoth]

No. Although if they get away with removing the other OS feature then they could (I'm speculating) try to remove the backward compatibility for the fat system that had it emulated in software. I wouldn't put it past them if it came down to trying to force people to buy new games.

I have the version where the BC was done in hardware, I'm pretty sure they can't remove that with out really screwing with something.

Re:Ha.

[HeronBlademaster]

Yeah... I recently bought (used) an old fat 60GB PS3 precisely because it had backward compatibility.

I haven't really been worried that they'd disable BC, but I stil told my wife to make sure she says no if something pops up asking her to update the firmware...

Re:Ha.

[Kielistic]

I have the version where the BC was done in hardware, I'm pretty sure they can't remove that with out really screwing with something.

You're wrong about that. They really probably only have to change a couple lines of code in the firmware to disable that. Software detects and loads that game, all they have to do is point to a block of code from a modern PS3 and it says the game's not valid just like any other PS3. In fact it would probably clean up their firmware a bit and make it easier for them to modify so I wouldn't even put it past them at this point.

Re:Ha.

[Xtifr]

You get to program the fascinating Cell processor. For many of us, that is enough. The goal certainly wasn't to run GPL games.

Re:Ha.

[b4dc0d3r]

It's too bad that every time we invent a new language, we have to come up with a new translation of "caveat emptor" because 2,000 years later consumers still don't pay attention to what they are buying.

Sony wants to make money, and if you are costing them money they will find a way to make money or cut you off. With all of the coverage about consoles being a loss leader for the first generation, there is very little excuse for someone to be ignorant that they are an expense to the company. Especially if you are doing something other than what it was designed to do - play games.

Re:Ha.

[LrdDimwit]

It's not quite that simple. The PS3 demonstrated quite effectively that there's a certain price point that causes sticker shock, and drives away customers. If they didn't subsidize the initial price of the console with expected future profits from game sales, they'd have to either charge a higher price, or make a weaker system. Either choice would lower the sales of the platform, and nobody makes games for consoles that haven't sold a ton of units.

The industry is basically dependent on this gimmick. Even though it would work out about the same amount of money if the games were cheaper, but the system more expensive up front - that would drive down total sales, and thus, the console manufacturer that tried it would probably lose in the marketplace.

Re:Ha.

[Anonymous Coward]

Interestingly enough, most consoles these days actually lose their companies money. That is, the console costs money to sell. All the money is in accessories, games, and licensing fees. That's why a Sony psp charger costs 10 times that of a generic wall wart.

Re:Ha.

[Sleepy]

>The whole point of the removal was to thwart Gehot's efforts on the PS3 hack.

That's the reason Sony provided, but Sony's response is still not valid because:

1) They're taking away something people paid for
2) There's no exploit.

My take on this is that Sony WANTED to remove Linux and needed an excuse. They removed OtherOS from the slim, but Geohot believes the hardware support is still there... I trust his insight on this.

The PS3 OS has evolved to the point where it's a pretty damn good media center, playing just about every video format under the sun. The PS3 did not launch like that, and they knew that Linux support would be attractive to the community and tech geeks, so this was a way to make Microsoft look less open. Sony doesn't need OtherOS because it now is outselling the XBox 360 (and as for the installed base... lets just say that the XB360 install base is just a LITTLE inflated due to users replacing their console 3 times...)

Most likely case is Sony had a change of executives sometime ago and decided they wanted to "fully control the user experience". Here was their excuse to make it retroactive... AND they can arguably deflect some of the anger at GeoHot. You know Sony wants to say it is his fault, even if their claim is not technically sound.

Re:Ha.

[Vortran]

Why? What advantage does Sony get from this action? It costs them money to do this and it alienates some (many? few?) of their customers. How can this increase their profit or give them a business advantage? I may just be not seeing the forest here... so, please enlighten.

Re:Ha.

[Anonymous Coward]

Am I the only one who thinks that it is more likely that Geohot altered the "OS Version String"?

When they hacked the PSP, I could modify *all* menu text, etc... My version os was something like "PSP ROCKS" or whatever. It seems far more likely that he modified his string on the easier to hack earlier firmware.

Inevitable, really

[Anonymous Coward]

I always considered the decision to enable installation of other operating systems on the PS3 a proactive and productive move by Sony to both enhance the appeal of the PS3 while also diminishing the desire to compromise the system to enable homebrew software. It was like Sony finally "got" it. Now that they've gone in the other direction, Sony has only succeeded in providing the incentive for people to do what Sony'd rather they didn't.

Re:Inevitable, really

[Anonymous Coward]

think it was more likely to do with the difference in tax duties between 'computers' and 'game consoles' when importing goods into the EU and other locations

Re:Inevitable, really

[mejogid]

Their hand was pretty much forced when Geohot hacked it in the first place. Since their console is already in third place, rampant piracy could destroy the motivation for other publishers to release on their system. This firmware demonstrates that custom firmwares are possible and I'm sure it won't be long until people are allowing playback of disks from external HDs or whatever.

I'd rather this hadn't happened but the Other OS feature is of little use besides the option to run code on the Cell, and in that case the latest firmware is probably not needed. Ultimately Sony reached out to the hobbyist community with better access to their hardware than any other recent console has provided, and somebody has come along and ruined that.

Re:Inevitable, really

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

"Somebody", specifically "Sony".

I'm getting tired of this "But that insolent peasant just wouldn't know his place and show proper gratitude for the scraps he'd been given, so poor Sony was forced to retroactively remove a feature; let us all shed a tear for Sony." crap.

Re:Inevitable, really

[Anonymous Coward]

That's when Ken Kutaragi was in charge. Ever since other managements took over, they started doing stupid things again (e.g. PSP Go).

Re:Inevitable, really

[Anonymous Coward]

Crazy Ken had his fair share of fuck-ups, as well.

Re:Inevitable, really

[Anonymous Coward]

Nothing what geohot did had not already been done by other people in the scene (with more expensive equipment, but still).
In fact, he did not break anything significantly. But he is motivated and willing to publish his work so it may gain more traction.
In time it may amount to something.

I doubt that Sony did not plan this already. It takes time to make decisions like this.

And lastly, I do not believe they are so stupid to believe this would stop hacking. The people who want to play with it will find a way, like just use old not updated firmware.

Sony did this because of cost reduction, not because of geohot.

Of course, it was still quite stupid of them.

Re:Inevitable, really

[Anonymous Coward]

Sony was not forced into anything. They could have FIXED the problem instead of removing the feature entirely. They were lazy and deserve this.

Secondly the Wii is the most hacked and most easily hacked console, followed by the 360. However, the Wii has the strongest console sales and strongest game sales, again followed by the 360. While most of that is due to price (Wii being least expensive, followed by 360), piracy does drive some sales. Pirates still need to buy the console, and once they have a console they are likely to purchase a couple titles or perhaps receive them as gifts over the life of the console.

Re:Inevitable, really

[Bert64]

Their console is in third place...
Their console is the only one which doesn't have rampant piracy...

Anyone else notice the connection?
I know plenty of people with xbox or wii consoles, most of which are modchipped to run copied games... Most of these people have a mix of copied and original games.
The few people i know who have ps3 consoles have a much smaller number of original games, and no copied ones...

Re:Inevitable, really

[antime]

Can this actually be verified? The PS2 was initially bundled with Yabasic in some regions in order to circumvent taxes in the UK, but this didn't work and Yabasic was dropped from the package pretty soon.

Re:Inevitable, really

[cbackas]

If I may throw in my own anecdote, I have six friends with an XBox 360, seven with a Wii, and one of these friends additionally has a PS3. Not a single one of them (including myself) has modified any of these or pirated any games for them. But look at our game libraries and the 360 is far and away the biggest for all of us.

I think it's more a matter of the 360 having had a significant head start on the PS3, and a continuing entry price advantage. Since so many games are cross platform, and the PS3 has had so few worthwhile exclusives (obviously opinion) the momentum stays with the 360. If it's a cross platform release, I have no incentive to get a PS3 for it, the 360 was usually the lead platform for these resulting in inferior PS3 ports anyway, and the 360 version lets me add to my gamerscore.

If piracy were really the big decider here, MS's game sales (as reported by NPD) wouldn't be as high as they are.

Re:Inevitable, really

[Touvan]

I really really wanted to mod parent up. Good show.

These corporate apologists need to give it up already. If I or Geohot, or anyone else wants to open the hood of our cars and start messing with things, it's our business. The same should apply to computer equipment. Sony's delusional control issues be damned. And yeah, they are delusional - piracy has never been proven to have any negative impact on sales, in games, music or movies, in fact the opposite is often show to be the case.

Now game reselling. That has a negative impact. Crappy content has the most negative impact - just look at the record movie going sales numbers for last year (and it's not the damned 3D, it's because the movies didn't suck - stupid corporate wankers).

Stop screwing people for messing with the things they bought, and spend more effort on making stuff people actually want to buy.

Re:Inevitable, really

[Anonymous Coward]

Their console is in third place...
Their console is the only one which doesn't have rampant piracy...

Anyone else notice the connection?

No. The PS3 is outselling the XBox 360 worldwide by 40,000 to 100,000 units every week for the last few months. The XBox is destined for third.

Re:Inevitable, really

[Anonymous Coward]

Dare I say it? Correlation is not causation. Ok, feel free to mod this down now -1 Obvious.

Re:Inevitable, really

[Anonymous Coward]

Correlation is not causation.

The PS3 started out more expensive than the other consoles (Hell, I could have built a midrange PC gaming rig for the $600+ it cost to start with) so it had less market penetration. Less penetration means less developer investment so there are less games.

It doesn't help that the Cell processor is an exotic pain in the ass to code for either [Most modern blockbusters are multi-platform, the PS3 is the odd man out here since it has a completely different architecture from everything else].

---
OTOH, you will shift more hardware units if your console is pirated a lot (The Nintendo DS is this way with Flash Carts) but the platform loses appeal to developers.

Re:Inevitable, really

[Anonymous Coward]

First, there's no proof of this custom firmware. How was he able to sign his own PUP with a private key he does not have?

Second, that geohot asshole is a just an attention whore. The results of his arrogance and attention seeking are that we cannot use OtherOS and play games anymore. The imbecile should be put on the business end of a Cheytac Intervention.

--
Glass

Re:Inevitable, really

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

I just don't understand this line of argument. Even if we grant all your assertions, they just don't add up to anything.

Ok, maybe he is a prick. Maybe he is an attention whore, and a lying one at that. Who knows, maybe he pulls the tails of puppies and kicks kittens....

Yeah, so? One party is a guy doing what he wants with his property. The other party is a multinational corporation retroactively removing features from millions of products they have sold. I don't see any way in which a bunch of biographical sniping, no matter how unpleasant or accurate, can detract from the basic moral clarity of this situation.

As for the moronic assertion: "The results of his arrogance and attention seeking are that we cannot use OtherOS and play games anymore." I'm pretty damn sure that arrogance and attention seeking have never reprogrammed a single PS3. Far less have they made any such updates de-facto mandatory. Sony, on the other hand, has(and in some millions of cases).

Re:Inevitable, really

[Sancho]

I agree. I also think that the PS3 started out its life with people who were more affluent. They could afford more, so piracy was probably not even a thought. And I've heard that a lot of people bought them mostly with Bluray in mind--for a long time, it was the most affordable Bluray player, and it has always been one of the most fully featured ones.

There are a lot of reasons that piracy is not rampant on the PS3, but I think a lot of them really do have to do with its popularity. Popularity itself is inextricably tied to things like game quality and quantity, number of exclusives, etc. Some of the reasons likely have to do with the market, too.

Re:Inevitable, really

[Anonymous Coward]

"Anyone else notice the connection?"

That's about as useful as connecting the fact that most, if not all, PS3 users wear pants and that therefore pants must be causing them to be in 3rd place. It's such a tired yet fundamentally true idiom, and yet I'm forced to say it... correlation is not causation.

Re:Inevitable, really

[mr_mischief]

The SPUs are fairly exotic I guess. All three concoles use Power/PPC-based main processors, though. So much for all the PC people saying PowerPC gaming is dead. Getting good performance out of the Cell is hard, but basic functionality shouldn't be any harder than the other consoles.

The architecture is different, but it has a similar roots and a similar central ISA. The general-purpose core is based on Power4. The PPE of the XBox 360 is actually a modified Cell PPE. The Wii uses a Broadway, which is a lower-end Power spinoff.

There's a reason the first Linux distros running on the PS3 were ports of Yellow Dog and Fedora PPC. The main central processor is very similar to what they were already targetting. The SPEs are the hard part.

Countdown to lawsuit

[Anonymous Coward]

In 3.... 2....1.....

You know it's comming. It's sony after all.

Re:Countdown to lawsuit

[Anonymous Coward]

Agreed, this won't end well.

Re:Countdown to lawsuit

[91degrees]

It will be interesting though. This firmware update restores advertised functionality of the product. It will be hard for Sony to demonstrate that this infringes their rights.

Re:Countdown to lawsuit

[DJRumpy]

Correction. This won't end well for geeks and in the end, for Sony. Hackers will take advantage of this work to crack it wide open and make piracy of the PS3 a trivial thing. Sony brought this on themselves. Most, however, won't care or even notice that the option is gone. Hell, even I never messed with it the Linux option on my PS3 (yes, I know my geek card is at risk). I'm irritated that they can just remove it, but I didn't buy it to run linux. I have any number of laptops and desktops that can do the same and I don't put Linux on all of them either ;)

Is this News for Nerds? Definitely. Is it news to Joe Public? Not in the slightest.

Re:Countdown to lawsuit

[Vectormatic]

make piracy of the PS3 a trivial thing... .... Is it news to Joe Public? Not in the slightest.

you contradict yourself, this is very much relevant for Joe public, since it means that within a year he can go to Jim public and buy some games for $5 a pop

Re:Countdown to lawsuit

[TheRaven64]

No it won't. If the firmware includes any of their code then it's a derived work of a copyrighted program and can not be distributed without their permission. What the code does will be completely irrelevant to the case. There may be a class action lawsuit from customers about removing functionality after purchase, but this will be an unrelated case.

Re:Countdown to lawsuit

[DJRumpy]

You assume that most of the public pirates games if given the opportunity, and doing so still requires technical knowledge. I don't think that's the case at all. Someone with computer knowledge would probably do so (hence the news for nerds), but some typical home user? Unlikely.

Re:Countdown to lawsuit

[Bert64]

Typical home users are more likely to pirate games, given the opportunity to do so...
It's a simple matter of economics...

Pirate game - $5
Non pirated game - $50

That's why anti-piracy propaganda tries to claim that pirate copies are somehow inferior (based on analog media like vhs losing quality when copied)...
The only thing stopping joe public from pirating games is a lack of knowledge, if you go to a member of the public and offer to modchip their console and sell them copied games for $5 a pop most will jump at the chance.

Re:Countdown to lawsuit

[Anonymous Coward]

SYSTEM SOFTWARE LICENSE AGREEMENT (Version 1.4) FOR THE PlayStation®3 SYSTEM

3. SERVICES AND UPDATES

From time to time, SCE may provide updates, upgrades or services to your PS3 system to ensure it is functioning properly in accordance with SCE guidelines or provide you with new offerings. Some services may be provided automatically without notice when you are online, and others may be available to you through SCE's online network or authorized channels. Without limitation, services may include the provision of the latest update or download of new release that may include security patches, new technology or revised settings and features which may prevent access to unauthorized or pirated content, or use of unauthorized hardware or software in connection with the PS3 system. Additionally, you may not be able to view your own content if it includes or displays content that is protected by authentication technology. Some services may change your current settings, cause a loss of data or content, or cause some loss of functionality. It is recommended that you regularly back up any data on the hard disk that is of a type that can be backed up. Other services or content may be made available to you by third parties who may require you to accept their terms and conditions and privacy policy (“Third Party Agreement”). SCE may refer to or provide you with links to websites that third parties independently operate or maintain (“Linked Sites”). SCE and its affiliated companies do not control or direct Linked Sites, nor do SCE and its affiliated companies monitor, approve, endorse, warrant or sponsor any information, conclusions, recommendations, advertisement, products, services or content described on Linked Sites. You acknowledge and agree that SCE and its affiliated companies have no liability to you for the information on the Linked Sites. Your reliance on any such information is at your own risk, and you assume all responsibilities and consequences resulting from your reliance. Please see your user's manual for information on controlling access to Linked Sites via PS3 system's parental control. Notwithstanding any provision of any terms and conditions, in the event of any conflict between this Agreement and the Third Party Agreement, this Agreement shall control as between you and SCE.

Re:Countdown to lawsuit

[91degrees]

Yes. That's a very interesting EULA.

Where does it say "You may not modify the software in such a way as to provide the advertised functionality"?

And you are aware that contracts of adhesion don't give a company carte blanche to interpret it in whatever manner they see fit aren't you?

Re:Countdown to lawsuit

[exomondo]

Yes. That's a very interesting EULA. Where does it say "You may not modify the software in such a way as to provide the advertised functionality"?

He's probably referring to this:

or cause some loss of functionality

Which, because of:

And you are aware that contracts of adhesion don't give a company carte blanche to interpret it in whatever manner they see fit aren't you?

is why EULAs have virtually no weight legally. And you're absolutely right, the EULA is not a means to for the company to circumvent it's legal responsibilities.

Re:Countdown to lawsuit

[Paul server guy]

Well, not the lawsuit you were referring to, but the Ewert v eBay attorneys are starting a class action. when I contacted them at carlson.law@live.com I received.

quote - First, a little about me. My name is Patricia (Trish) Carlson. I live and practice in San Antonio, Texas. I have been practicing since 1997 and mainly handle class actions and mass tort litigation. Currently, I am co-counsel in the Ewert v eBay class action pending in the United States District Court of California. Here is a link to the eBay case.

http://dockets.justia.com/docket/court-candce/case_no-5:2007cv02198/case_id-191451/

If you pull the public documents and look at the service page you will see my name and address/phone etc... That case is currently at the certification stage and the certification hearing is scheduled later this month.

I was contacted by a person familiar with that case and asked to take a look at the issues surrounding Sony's decision to eliminate the "other OS" function of the PS3. Without going into greater detail, we have read the EULA in question, considered all the relevant case law, and are extremely comfortable with proceeding.

So far, the response to the potential Sony class action has been very positive. I am presently working with additional counsel in South Texas and California. The suit will seek restitution/damages and likely an injunction prohibiting the Hobson's choice of updating to 3.21 or not. Simply put, we believe you are entitled to what you paid for. A PS3 with functioning secondary OS capabilities, the ability to access the PSN, and the ability to play all future PS3 games and blu-ray movies.

I hope this was helpful. If you have any questions, feel free to ask. I can be reached by e-mail or by the number listed below. This e-mail address is being used solely for the Sony case. "

Disclaimer - I don't know these people, I'm not even sure I'm going to join the class action, but I'm pissed that I lost a piece of functionality that I use heavily and paid for...

but I do want to see Sony, (and other companies that think they can just keep on stealing from customers) pay for their arrogance. Perhaps they may even learn a lesson. (OK, I thought it was funny, 'cause I know it'll never happen.)

Re:Repeat After Me:

[WrongSizeGlass]

PS3 is a GAME CONSOLE, not a COMPUTER.

Then someone will have to release "Linux: The Game" pretty soon so it can run on the PS3.

Re:Repeat After Me:

[Anonymous Coward]

PS3 is a computer, just designed as a gaming device as opposed to a general purpose PC.

not on slim

[swanriversean]

I will be completely surprised if this works on the PS3 slim.
I understood that one of the ways Sony cut the price and reduced the size for the slim was that they did not include the IBM hypervisor that made the whole thing possible.
(see:
      http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/linux/library/l-linux-ps3-1/
      http://www.osnews.com/story/22073/Why_No_OtherOS_Option_on_PS3_Slim_Sony_Answers
for a few more details)

Without the hypervisor, its just not possible.

Re:not on slim

[Anonymous Coward]

whitout the hypervisor it should be even more fun to run linux on it

Re:not on slim

[millennial]

No, that's definitely not true. The hypervisor isn't what made running Linux possible; it's what made it limited when it did run. The hypervisor is also actively involved in the regular PS3 OS. It's an essential part of the PS3, and they'd never build a retail version without one.

Re:not on slim

[PhunkySchtuff]

I don't believe they have dropped the hypervisor - that's one of the major security strongpoints and partly what has kept the PS3 from being totally pwned by now...
From the osnews article you linked, they say (with emphasis mine)

I’m sorry that you are frustrated by the lack of comment specifically regarding the withdrawal of support for OtherOS on the new PS3 slim. The reasons are simple: The PS3 Slim is a major cost reduction involving many changes to hardware components in the PS3 design. In order to offer the OtherOS install, SCE would need to continue to maintain the OtherOS hypervisor drivers for any significant hardware changes – this costs SCE. One of our key objectives with the new model is to pass on cost savings to the consumer with a lower retail price. Unfortunately in this case the cost of OtherOS install did not fit with the wider objective to offer a lower cost PS3.

What I read into this is that they don't want to keep updating the hypervisor drivers for OtherOS support with the major hardware changes they made for the Slim, not that they're dropping the hypervisor altogether...

Re:not on slim

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe this will help ... claims to be the RSA key for the IPL ROM loader of the supervisor.

http://pastebay.com/91827

#
-----BEGIN RSA PRIVATE KEY-----
#
MIIkKAIBAAKCCAEAod9icAUvDgBYjgRl5IIUMBJu4J0uXEXbiYeIBiNxN7RlCbKb
#
by6yv13pQMiEME2nTPK1FPgkA4nyR1Lr7Kq1fiBAaG14m45Hwpnvz/zFdAJ2h3/T

Re:not on slim

[betterunixthanunix]

The hyperviser enforced the restrictions and provided a simplified driver interface, that's all. You can run Linux on a PS3 without the hyperviser, but the current firmware will not allow it.

Re:not on slim

[Anonymous Coward]

> significant hardware changes
It's a console ... what significant hardware changes could there be?

Re:not on slim

[Anonymous Coward]

There's no real data on the Slim in those links.

The Cell *needs* a hypervisor (level 1 OS) in order to function at all. It's hard-wired into the design specs. It would be possible to drop in a less powerful one, instead of paying an IBM royalty, I suppose ... but then you just put the IBM one back on the Slim and you're done.

Re:not on slim

[somersault]

Ethernet, wifi, bluetooth and HDD controllers are some obvious possibilities.

Re:not on slim

[swanriversean]

brilliant - I should RTFA that I referenced!

Re:not on slim

[noidentity]

No, that's definitely not true. The hypervisor isn't what made running Linux possible; it's what made it limited when it did run.

Yeah right, next thing you'll be telling me that DRM isn't what makes copying music and movies possible! Before we had hypervisors and DRM, we couldn't run Linux or copy music at all!

Re:not on slim

[somersault]

Nah it wouldn't be able to run many of the previously available games with that amount of RAM. It still has 256MB

Re:not on slim

[Vanderhoth]

Thanks I read it only had 16 MB somewhere. I should get a -1 misinformation mod.

Re:not on slim

[Eponymous Coward]

I don't know about this. Look at the history of the PS3 and you will see that Sony has been steadily taking away features rather than adding them.

Re:not on slim

[Anonymous Coward]

-1, Retard

Re:not on slim

[Vanderhoth]

That ones actually called Anonymous Coward.

Sorry for feeding the trolls

Re:not on slim

[oh-dark-thirty]

Ok, fine...but Sony out-and-out lied regarding future support, see msg below. Granted this Geoff character was likely a low-level droid, but he was still speaking as a company representative (apologies for the messy look, /. did it, not me!) : [Cbe-oss-dev] No otheros feature on new PS3 slim ? Geoff Levand geoffrey.levand at am.sony.com Sat Aug 22 02:58:33 EST 2009 Previous message: [Cbe-oss-dev] No otheros feature on new PS3 slim ? Next message: [Cbe-oss-dev] No otheros feature on new PS3 slim ? Hi François, On 08/18/2009 02:33 PM, François Galea wrote: > Is this hust a rumour or is it for real ? > > Sony seems to have dropped the otheros feature on the new ps3 slim hardware. > > If anybody has reliable news, I'd be glad to hear about. The feature of "Install Other OS" was removed from the new "Slim" PS3 model to focus on delivering games and other entertainment content. Please be assured that SCE is committed to continue the support for previously sold models that have the "Install Other OS" feature and that this feature will not be disabled in future firmware releases. -Geoff

Re:not on slim

[somersault]

I'm saying that all those features are already there on both versions of the PS3, but those are a few of the possible hardware changes in the process.

Re:not on slim

[Megane]

Correction... it's a console that they're not manufacturing any more (they never supported OtherOS on the Slim), what significant hardware changes could there be with the Fat, which was the only model that supported OtherOS?

Re:not on slim

[CronoCloud]

All PS3's have a hypervisor, it runs all the time, even PS3 games run under it.

Re:not on slim

[Kielistic]

You're probably thinking about the original run of the PSP. It had only 16MB of RAM which has since been doubled. 16MB would never be enough for the PS3; people already complain about the somewhat memory constricted architecture.

Re:not on slim

[millennial]

Did you even see what I actually wrote? "The hypervisor isn't what made running Linux possible."

Re:not on slim

[millennial]

Actually, the original PSP had 32; the new ones have 64.

Re:not on slim

[noidentity]

Yeah, I just failed on my joke delivery.

Re:not on slim

[millennial]

No, I totally understood what you were doing, but it only works if I was saying that the hypervisor made Linux possible.

Re:Repeat After Me:

[selven]

PS3 most definitely IS a computer. It has a processor and can (barring deliberate attempts to prevent it) run arbitrary code. If it's just a game console, then why do people use them to crack encryption/hashing algorithms?

It may be a locked down computer, but it's still a computer that works exactly like a desktop or laptop computer underneath.

Well done Sony

[cyborch]

I hope you are happy Sony.

You made it this far without people building custom firmware. Now you've forced people to find ways to put custom firmware on the PS3. Next up is "indie" games followed by pirates followed by the game industry going back to PCs or over to other consoles.

Too bad. I actually liked by PS3. Hopefully something new will come along soon so I won't have to buy an xbox...

Re:Well done Sony

[MrWeelson]

Emphasis mine.

"I hope you are happy Sony.

You made it this far without [some] people building custom firmware. Now you've forced [some] people to find ways to put custom firmware on the PS3. Next up is "indie" games followed by pirates followed by the game industry going back to PCs or over to other consoles.

Too bad. I actually liked by PS3. Hopefully something new will come along soon so I won't have to buy an xbox..."

Don't confuse those who read /. with the majority who just want their PS3 to play games and watch DVDs. Plus why would the game industry care if you can or can't install Linux on a PS3 - irrelevant for them.

Re:Well done Sony

[Anonymous Coward]

PS4

Re:Well done Sony

[NickFortune]

Too bad. I actually liked by PS3. Hopefully something new will come along soon so I won't have to buy an xbox...

There's a little known platform called a "personal computer". It works a lot like a gaming console, except that it isn't crippled at the hardware level by the OEM and has a wider range of software available. You can even install Linux on it :)

Seriously, I've never understood the appeal of spending serious money on a deliberately crippled computer, when I have a perfectly good one already. Doubly so from a company that even rootkits their audio CDs.

Re:Well done Sony

[NickFortune]

You made it this far without [some] people building custom firmware. Now you've forced [some] people to find ways to put custom firmware on the PS3. Next up is "indie" games followed by pirates followed by the game industry going back to PCs or over to other consoles.

I was under the impression that one of the things Sony got right with the PS2 and PS3 was the option to install Linux. Not for any reasons of ideology, but just because it isolated separated those who wanted to experiment with their O/S from those who just wanted to defeat the platform's built-in DRM.

As a result, the efforts to crack the Playstation as a platform have been small and ineffective, at least in comparison to the efforts directed at the XBox consoles which has often appeared to be under siege.

Now it seems likely that, as with the XBox consoles, hackers and pirates will find common ground. So all in all it seems likely that we'll see [more] effort devoted to building custom firmware for the PS3. Which I think was probably the GP's point.

Re:Well done Sony

[Tordre]

It is a crippled computer yes but it is also beneficial for gaming in many ways. For instance the save file handling is set up in such away to be convenient to the user, anyone who played PC games might notice that there is no standard location for save files, different folder locations for different companies, and in some cases different file locations for save games from the save company. Moving all your save files from one computer to another can be difficult and you can never be sure if you got everything.

Also aside from HTPC's how many of you have a PC in the living room, people generally want to sit on a couch to play games. Also with couch gaming you can get single screen multi-player a feature which is never implemented on PC's.

The final point, is that you can trade games among your friends without having to worry about CD-Keys and DRM preventing game trading.

Crippled for your convenience. Sure they might be computers and although Turing (and you) might disagree not all machines need to do all functions.

Re:Well done Sony

[DrXym]

You made it this far without people building custom firmware. Now you've forced people to find ways to put custom firmware on the PS3. Next up is "indie" games followed by pirates followed by the game industry going back to PCs or over to other consoles.

It's probably going to take some good while before its even know that there is a viable way to install custom firmware. If / when it does happen, good luck to the pirates who run the real risk of bricking their machines, who must spend days downloading huge games (and finding somewhere to store them) and enjoying their unpatched and unconnected experiences.

Re:Well done Sony

[Anonymous Coward]

Both the Wii and 360 have been easy to mod for piracy, you'll note that both units sell rather well. The NDS is the easiest of all to run copied games, it's not exactly a sloth in unit sales either. The PSP failed because the games went shit and peoples' tasted moved away from "real" console like gaming to quicker simpler offerings, just look at gaming on devices like the smartphones. Silly little cheap and cheerful games that lots of people love.

It's been suggested Sony may forced the issue to trigger a move towards piracy to sell more units, now that they're stripped down the hardware and are showing profits. Of course, they could just be dumb and believe they can control this fight. All they need to do is reinstate linux and give it a better video-driver to make the small army of techs bashing away on the device to go back to their caves. There's no point hacking it when it already allows decent control. The modders won't come up with anything, they're not skilled enough.

Re:Well done Sony

[Anonymous Coward]

Hopefully something new will come along soon so I won't have to buy many xboxes ..

There, fixed that for you...

Re:Well done Sony

[icebraining]

Have you misread the part of parent's post about "pirates"?

Don't confuse those who read /. with the majority who just want their PS3 to play [free] games and watch DVDs. Plus why would the game industry care if you can or can't install Linux on a PS3 - irrelevant for them.

FTFY

Re:Well done Sony

[English French Man]

You can still trade games with friends? I thought the gaming industry DRM'd that too. Doesn't Sony demands online registration of a game to work?

It's been over a decade since I played on a game console, but the rumors I've heard stated things like that...

Re:Well done Sony

[Anonymous Coward]

To tell you the truth, I'm more interested in the option 'Other OS' for the slim. I mainly wanted to try out parallel programming but didn't want to shell out +300$. Also, there was too many restriction on what possibilities Sony gave, so at least I had games I wanted to play.

Now it's getting more interesting if it indeed work on a slim.

Re:Well done Sony

[VGPowerlord]

Piracy doesn't directly affect system sales. Well, that may not be true, it may actually increase them.

What it does is get the publishers to release less exclusives for it.

Seriously, though, the PS3 is the least pirated current system because it uses Blu-Ray discs. Your two options there are to 1. buy a Blu-Ray burner (expensive) and writable BD-ROMs (expensive?), or 2. have an HDD connected (internal or external) with images of games that could be up to 50GB each.

Re:Well done Sony

[HAKdragon]

Uh no. Trading still works for pretty much any console and handheld game. There are the few exceptions, such as the latest SOCOM which come with a code that must be registered before you can play online. Thankfully that situation is in the tiny mintority (for now).

Re:Well done Sony

[Anonymous Coward]

But then I need two machines...
 
  Seriously, I've never understood the appeal of spending serious money on a [console]
 
I've never understood the appeal of spending money on a machine where you have to fiddle with drivers and software, so I guess we're even...

Re:Well done Sony

[English French Man]

Oh, OK, then it must have been speculation on what the video game industry could look like in a few years.

It should be noted that with PC gaming a few years back, one could trade games with friends, it is a little more difficult to do that now with things like Steam.

Re:Well done Sony

[Trarman]

This argument always seems short-sighted to me. Eventually this generation of consoles will become irrelevant. So instead of having an old PS3 that only plays old PS3 games (or even older PS2 and PS1 games) sitting in a corner gathering dust, why not install linux on it and give it a new purpose? Maybe as a media center? MythTV front-end? MAME box? Shouldn't I be able to decide what to do with the hardware? Maybe I don't want linux on it NOW, but in the future it would keep it useful. Sony is trying to limit my options, and since there's no way to downgrade, it's a permanent limitation.

Re:Well done Sony

[Anonymous Coward]

When you spend hours reinstalling xp / 7 , updating direct x, drivers, chasing mallware etc. i spend the time playing games on my console. That's what "deliberately crippled computer" is good for. It wont run office, photoshop ... but i can play without hassle.

Re:Well done Sony

[Anonymous Coward]

Game industry going back to PCs because the PS3 will allow piracy? Hah... because there's no piracy on PC. /sarcasm

Re:Well done Sony

[Anonymous Coward]

You've got to be kidding. Try building a gaming computer for $300 that's even a tenth the speed of the PS3 on GPU intensive operations. Don't forget that your standard preupdate PS3 was an $800.00 computer that Sony's been eating costs on this entire time.

Re:Well done Sony

[NickFortune]

I've never understood the appeal of spending money on a machine where you have to fiddle with drivers and software, so I guess we're even...

I probably didn't make this entirely clear, but installing some exotic O/S variant isn't compulsory. This being Slashdot, I can see how you might have formed the wrong impression about that.

The fact is, you can get by very nicely with the drivers that come bundled with the system in the vast majority of cases.

Re:Well done Sony

[NickFortune]

Don't forget that your standard preupdate PS3 was an $800.00 computer that Sony's been eating costs on this entire time.

Yeah, four years ago it was pretty competitive. Meanwhile Moore's Law marches on.

Also, you have to allow for a lot of that $800 going on the BluRay drive they were desperate to get some marketshare at the time. Factor that into the price, and unless you really needed a BluRay player, you got to wonder where the value lay.

Re:Well done Sony

[Megane]

When the PS2 was new, writable DVDs and burners were expensive too. And HDs were in the 10GB range.

Re:Well done Sony

[Anonymous Coward]

I totally agree.

I built a set-top-box (size of XBOX 360) myself. Micro ATX mobo, with AMD CPU and ATI video card, 500GB hard drive.

I bought XBOX 360 controller and wireless receiver for PC (look it up on amazon) and I am happily playing games on my TV with my own home-built gaming station.

The whole thing cost me less than either XBOX 360 or PS3. And the cool part: I can do what I want with it.

The other cool part: I can play _really_ old favorites on it!

Best part: Noone can tell me what I can and cannot do with it!

Re:Well done Sony

[Tordre]

Well now the trend to fight game resale and game trading is to include Day Zero DLC which you get a one time use code when you buy a game new. I am perfectly OK with that as long as the DLC is nothing that will prevent me from experiencing the full story, if i really want the DLC I will buy new if not I can buy used.

I would imagine if they start making us register every game and preventing us from reselling the games there will be some kind of legal outcry, not just from consumers but also from retailers whose business is the resale of used games, and game rental places. I doubt they will get away with it for long.

Re:Well done Sony

[equinox654]

When you spend hours reinstalling xp / 7 , updating direct x, drivers, chasing mallware etc. i spend the time playing games on my console. That's what "deliberately crippled computer" is good for. It wont run office, photoshop ... but i can play without hassle.

Come on! DirectX is auto updated when you install a game that needs it. Drivers take 5 minutes every month or two. Anyone on this site should know how to not get malware or atleast remove it. Once your system is setup initially it should be as easy as a console to use... more so with steam.

Re:Well done Sony

[Anonymous Coward]

Historically, consoles have been cheaper alternatives to needing to constantly upgrade your PC to play games at a set standard performance level. A PS2 was a capable game platform for like 7 years straight. Few PCs would play "current" games for 7 years.

Also PC games are rarely split screen multiplayer and infrequently map functions to game controllers adequately, losing the "veg out on the couch" appeal, even if you're hooked up to a TV.

Honestly, I'd rather have a cheap computer and a console than a computer worth the two combined. I've often broke something regarding my computer and then went and played a console to blow off steam or clear my head. Or set a video to encode and used the console to kill time while the computer sits at 100% CPU usage with a huge IO througput.

I've got a PS3 and I've held off updating for the moment. I never used Other OS, and I don't intend to pirate anything, but I'm taking the approach of lets wait and see what happens.

Re:Well done Sony

[VGPowerlord]

When the PS2 was new, writable DVDs and burners were expensive too. And HDs were in the 10GB range.

While that may be true, the PS3 was new in Q4 2006. It's Q2 2010 now. Since the PS2 was released in North America in Q4 2000, what were the DVD Writer/DVD-R prices and HD sizes like in Q2 2004?

Re:Well done Sony

[Sleepy]

Oh come on, the PS3 is pretty good at what it does. It has an appliance feel and just "works". Sit down at a friend's PS3 and it works much like your own.

PCs haven't connected well to TV's until a few years ago (and that assumes you upgraded to a digital TV.. not everyone has). PC's tend to be noisy.

Re:Well done Sony

[mr_mischief]

If you want something really open, try going with something open fromm the start. Perhaps OpenPandora?

Somethings messed up his MAC address

[Viol8]

It says FF:FF:FF etc in the info screen. Thats not right. I wonder if his "firmware" has any side effects he's not letting on about.

Re:Somethings messed up his MAC address

[WrongSizeGlass]

It says FF:FF:FF etc in the info screen. Thats not right. I wonder if his "firmware" has any side effects he's not letting on about.

You mean that maybe it stutters?

Re:Somethings messed up his MAC address

[Thanshin]

You mean that maybe it stutters?

First time I've ever missed not having mod points.

Re:Somethings messed up his MAC address

[ElberethZone]

Even more proof he made a custom firmware. Changing the MAC address was a feature of the Custom Firmwares for PSP.

Re:Somethings messed up his MAC address

[doomy]

> Does anyone think this clown has actually "cracked" this? Sounds like his other "crack" for the PS3, which was basically not a crack at all.

I'm not sure why you are calling him a clown, he's a respectable hacker that has worked on jail-breaking the iPhone, and enabling access to the locked out 7 SPU's in PS3. If you are eluding to his age, then it's sad.

Here read more about him.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Hotz

Re:Somethings messed up his MAC address

[imakemusic]

FF:FF:FF

Scorchio!

Re:Somethings messed up his MAC address

[stonewallred]

lol, "cracking" the PS3 in the first place which required modding and the frequent power switching, in hopes of gaining a limited ability to peer into the workings is not cracking/hacking nor does it make him anything but a publicity hound. He might have some credibility when it comes to iphone(don't know as not into them) but in PS3, he is a rube and a charlatan.

Re:Somethings messed up his MAC address

[Anonymous Coward]

Boutros Boutros Ghali!
FF:FF:FF:FF Chris Waddle!

Re:Somethings messed up his MAC address

[Mad Leper]

A "respecable" hacker that took credit for other peoples hard work for the iphone crack, and failed to do anything more than dent the outer ring of the PS3 security?

Sad indeed.

Re:Somethings messed up his MAC address

[Anonymous Coward]

Pretty much like you on /..

Re:Somethings messed up his MAC address

[Jaysyn]

Now you are just making yourself look like a fool.

Re:Somethings messed up his MAC address

[marcansoft]

Geohot has a tendency to overstate things to gain an ego boost and media coverage. In the case of the PS3, he is quite the novice. Throughout this whole saga, he's made numerous technical errors that he later had to correct. This is normal; he had no clue how anything on the PS3 worked when he started. Just don't be misled into thinking he knows exactly what he's doing.

He's not an idiot, and he's learning, but I wouldn't go anywhere near any custom firmware that he puts out at this stage. He can't possibly know what he's doing. Not yet.

Re:Somethings messed up his MAC address

[Vanderhoth]

I'm glad you're in a position to make that statement.

What was it you recently cracked again?

Re:Somethings messed up his MAC address

[Anonymous Coward]

Totally agree. Geohot is out there just to brag that he cracked the PS3. His "crack" was nothing more than a useless proof of concept. Instead of trying to do something useful with it or find a real exploit, Geohot just went public to make a name for himself.

Case in point? GPU access. Geohot stated that he had open GPU access using his crack, but he didn't do anything with it because GPU drivers are too hard (he says as much in his blog). So, instead of working with others to make the GPU useful in Linux, Geohot gives up and starts bragging about his unreliable hack.

Re:Somethings messed up his MAC address

[Anonymous Coward]

Based on his rep, it probably extends the functionality of the fix even further.

Re:Somethings messed up his MAC address

[tom17]

Ahhhh, good memories.

Re:Somethings messed up his MAC address

[Bert64]

If he discloses the MAC address of his device then sony would be able to identify him... If i were him i wouldn't want to disclose it.

Re:Somethings messed up his MAC address

[Megane]

did the MAC address end in UU:CK?

Re:Somethings messed up his MAC address

[Anonymous Coward]

Ignore the GP. He's just a jealous twat.

Re:Somethings messed up his MAC address

[ArundelCastle]

Here read more about him.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Hotz

That portrait is..... unfortunate. 8-o
Dude needs a publicist. Though with such a heavily referenced wiki page.. maybe he already does?
Anyway, I bet he's either a multi-millionaire or a minimum-security inmate by 25, and then the other one by 30. ;) One to watch, that's for sure. Keep on keepin' on brother.

Sounds familiar...

[Anonymous Coward]

Do you work for Apple?

Re:Repeat After Me:

[Thanshin]

PS3 is a GAME CONSOLE, not a COMPUTER.

Mustang is a MUSCLE CAR, not a VEHICLE!

Found this on pastebay.com

[Anonymous Coward]

The poster said its the private RSA key for the IPL ROM that boots the supervisor.

http://pastebay.com/91827

Maybe someone can have a look at this.

Enjoy

It's not any sort of version string change

[Barryke]

From his blog:

Here is a video demoing my "custom firmware". It's not any sort of version string change; I would have added something showing off the new features of 3.21, but oh wait, there aren't any.

http://geohotps3.blogspot.com/

Australian Competition & Consumer Commission

[PhunkySchtuff]

I don't know if America has anything like the Australian Competition & Consumer Commission but if you do, I'd urge you to raise this issue with them (and if you're in Australia, please get onto the case).

This is a simple case of a company changing the specs on a product that you have bought, after you've bought it and changing it in an adverse fashion. It is removing a feature that you have paid for and have possibly had for years, without offering any workaround or compensation.

Sony claim that the update is not mandatory, and that it is entirely your choice if you wish to install it or not, but the simple fact is that by not installing the patch, you lose even more functionality than if you do install it. No PSN. No Playstation Store. On online gaming. No access to new games that require this or a newer firmware. No access to bluray content that requires this or a newer version of the firmware. Etc.

Here's the text of the submission I made to the ACCC (you're limited to 1500 characters)

Sony have recently released a firmware update for the PlayStation 3 Games Console.
From what I can see, all this update does is remove a feature from the console. The feature removed is the "Other OS" support - the ability to install another operating system, such as Linux, on the PS3 and use it as a general purpose computer.

Sony claim that the update is not mandatory, however by not installing this update, you lose access to the PlayStation Network, so any games that require this for online play will no longer work. One of the main reasons for owning a PS3 is the online gameplay component.

More information about other features that will be locked out are here on Sony's web site: http://blog.us.playstation.com/2010/03/28/ps3-firmware-v3-21-update/

"Consumers and organizations that currently use the “Other OS” feature can choose not to upgrade their PS3 systems, although the following features will no longer be available; Ability to sign in to PlayStation Network and use network features that require signing in to PlayStation Network, such as online features of PS3 games and chat Playback of PS3 software titles or Blu-ray Disc videos that require PS3 system software version 3.21 or later Playback of copyright-protected videos that are stored on a media server (when DTCP-IP is enabled under Settings) Use of new features and improvements that are available on PS3 system software 3.21 or later"

Interesting

[Reisrdok]

I bought PS3 mainly because of OtherOS. Now they remove it. Can I get my money back, the product does not have the features I paid for and wanted? Oh well. Probably there is a paragraph in sony EULA that allows them to do this. There's probably few lines about my soul too..

Re:Interesting

[PhunkySchtuff]

You're right, there is a paragraph in the EULA that Sony are using to justify this "upgrade" however if such an upgrade conflicts with the law, then I'm afraid that it's the law that wins out over the EULA.

Re:Interesting

[NorQue]

Then simply don't update? As long as you don't update you keep the Other OS feature. If you don't need your PS3 for anything else there's no reason to update, too.

Re:Interesting

[drinkypoo]

I bought PS3 mainly because of OtherOS. Now they remove it. Can I get my money back, the product does not have the features I paid for and wanted? Oh well. Probably there is a paragraph in sony EULA that allows them to do this. There's probably few lines about my soul too..

First, it is not clear how enforceable a EULA is, largely because you are not forced to sign it before using the product. Second, it is not clear where the law will treat the boundary between software and hardware. Third, you cannot sign away your legal rights. This one could take a long time and make a lot of lawyers very rich. I sure fucking wish they would start already, Sony could use some come-uppance.

Re:Interesting

[Reisrdok]

But I do use the "PS3 OS" sometimes, play games etc..

Re:Interesting

[lilo_booter]

Kinda in the same boat - I bought my first PS3 for running Linux on it, decided it sucked, and basically had the machine collecting dust for the best part of a year... but for some reason (boredom probably), I dragged it out and started playing a couple of games which came with it (Uncharted in particular) and started playing with its media playback and knocking up some custom stuff to allow me to access my satellite receivers channels through the xmb...

Long story short... very happy customer now - awesome bit of kit. If you're just going to throw yours away, I can give you an address to send it to :-).

Re:Interesting

[Anonymous Coward]

but noone is forcing you to upgrade? you have to choose between 'otherOS'(Linux) and games, just like we all do..

Re:Interesting

[dmiller]

Actually there is: you cannot use the Playstation network or BD+ bluray features without the latest SW version.

Re:Interesting

[Anonymous Coward]

First, it is not clear how enforceable a EULA is, largely because you are not forced to sign it before using the product.

Hell, you're hardly able to read it before buying the product. It's sort of like a running joke in the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy:

"But Mr. Dent, the EULA has been available on the Sony website for the last nine months."

"Oh yes, well as soon as I heard I went straight round to see them, yesterday afternoon. You hadn't exactly gone out of your way to call attention to them had you? I mean like actually telling anybody or anything."

"But the EULA was on display ..."

"On display? I eventually had to go down to the cellar to find it."

"That's the display department."

"With a torch."

"Ah, well the lights had probably gone."

"So had the stairs."

"But look, you found the EULA didn't you?"

"Yes," said Arthur, "yes I did. It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying Beware of the Leopard."

Re:Interesting

[Vanderhoth]

but noone is forcing you to upgrade? you have to choose between 'otherOS'(Linux) and games, just like we all do..

I can shoot you in your left knee cap or your right knee cap. Which would you like? I've giving you a choice.

Re:Interesting

[HarrySquatter]

Boohoo. They provide those services on their terms. If you don't accept those terms of service, you don't get to use the service.

Re:Interesting

[Martin249]

yep. "By agreeing to this EULA, you hereby forfeit your soul to Sony"

Re:Interesting

[wtfamidoinghere]

Well, then it's ok for you if they suddenly go and change the terms of service to, let's say, require you to pay a fee each time you log onto the PSN? After all, if you don't accept, you don't get to use it, f*ck you very much !

Of course, you are forgetting (or ignoring) that people do make buying decisions based on the service they are advertised. It's NOT ok to change them in the future and screw all the customers. People PAYED for the OtherOS support. Now, Sony is simply ripping them off of what they payed for. Everything else is secondary.

Re:Interesting

[clintonmonk]

That's funny, because I am the law!

Re:Interesting

[CronoCloud]

That's not entirely true. There's a DNS trick you can do to let you log into PSN with a 3.15 PS3. Just use this as your primary DNS: 67.202.81.137 its your PS3 that determines if you can use PSN, if it thinks you're fully updated you can use it.

http://www.yellowdog-board.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=7266&start=90#p37713

http://www.yellowdog-board.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=7266&start=150#p37842

Re:Interesting

[HarrySquatter]

Well, then it's ok for you if they suddenly go and change the terms of service to, let's say, require you to pay a fee each time you log onto the PSN?

Yes, it is okay for them to do so. If you don't find it acceptable, though, you can stop using the service.

After all, if you don't accept, you don't get to use it, f*ck you very much !

Yes, if you don't want to pay for a paid service, you don't get access to it.

Re:Interesting

[exomondo]

Boohoo. They provide those services on their terms. If you don't accept those terms of service, you don't get to use the service.

The Bluray functionality is not a service.

Re:Interesting

[wtfamidoinghere]

No no no ... I payed for the FREE access to the network when I purchased the PS3. It's NOT ok to change the terms after I already payed, just because you say so.

And no, I don't want to pay for the FREE access, because I ALREADY payed for that service when aquiring the PS3.

Oh well, trolls will be trolls ...

Re:Interesting

[Anonymous Coward]

It depends on the law where you live. In the UK I should think you could return it to the retailer you bought it from under the Sale of Goods Act since it is no longer fully functional as it was when you bought it.

Re:Repeat After Me:

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

Achievement Unlocked: Root Access!

Achievement Unlocked: Apt-Gotten!

Achievement Unlocked: Upgrade!

Re:Australian Competition & Consumer Commissio

[dmiller]

Thanks for the pointer, I have been meaning to do just that. Here is mine:

Sony has just issued a firmware update[1] that disables the "OtherOS" support that is used to run alternate operating systems such as Linux on the Playstation 3 (PS3) game console. This was an advertised feature of the PS3 and was a factor in my decision to purchase the product. The firmware update is effectively mandatory; the PS3 will not support online play or game updates/downloads via the Playstation network without it (these are also advertised features).

That a major consumer electronics company can unilaterally remove advertised features from a product that I have bought and paid for is chilling to say the least and appears misleading and deceptive in the classic "bait and switch" style. I request that the ACCC investigate this matter.

[1] http://blog.us.playstation.com/2010/03/28/ps3-firmware-v3-21-update/

Re:Repeat After Me:

[X.25]

PS3 is a GAME CONSOLE, not a COMPUTER.

It seems that you don't understand what a COMPUTER is, though.

Re:Australian Competition & Consumer Commissio

[Man On Pink Corner]

Reply from the Australian Competition & Consumer Commission:

Crikey! Thank you for bringing this egregious behavior to our attention. Effective April 30, 2010, the Sony Playstation 3 is hereby banned for import, sale, and possession in the states and territories of Australia and surrounding lesser islands.

This is why you can't have nice things.

Re:Repeat After Me:

[betterunixthanunix]

My PC has the following: CPU, RAM, hard disk drive, display adapter, NIC, USB ports...

My PS3 has the following: CPU, RAM, hard disk drive, display adapter, NIC, USB ports...

Sorry, could you remind me what the difference is?

Re:Australian Competition & Consumer Commissio

[PhunkySchtuff]

That's obviously a fake, as they didn't sign off with the obligatory:

"Get a dog up ya, mate"

Re:Australian Competition & Consumer Commissio

[moniker]

The American equivalent is the FTC, Federal Trade Commission.

You can complete a complaint form at https://www.ftccomplaintassistant.gov/

Not sure the best address to use on the form, but here is one of them:

Sony Computer Entertainment America, Inc.
919 E Hillsdale Blvd 2nd Floor
Foster City Ca 94404-4247

Appropriately, the PS3 blog considers FTC to be a swear word.

Complaining to the BBB is pointless. SCEA already has an F... I don't think they can get an F-.

Re:Repeat After Me:

[bheekling]

Bonus points for using a car analogy.

Re:Repeat After Me:

[Anonymous Coward]

Wrong. PS3 is (was) a Computer Entertainment System. Now without the computer function, it's just an Entertainment System.

Re:Repeat After Me:

[exomondo]

PS3 is a GAME CONSOLE, not a COMPUTER.

Funny how Sony directly contradicts that statement, get your facts right before making stupid statements. Specifically this quote from Phil Harrison:

"The Playstation 3 is a computer. We do not need the PC."

Application Data; HTPC gaming

[tepples]

anyone who played PC games might notice that there is no standard location for save files

Any PC game that doesn't put saved games within in %appdata%\(publisher)\(title) or %userprofile%\My Documents is not following the Windows file system hierarchy standard and thus is not a conforming Windows application.

different folder locations for different companies, and in some cases different file locations for save games from the save company

In the %appdata% model, each company's saved games are supposed to be in different folders.

Also with couch gaming you can get single screen multi-player a feature which is never implemented on PC's.

Never is a strong word. Sonic Kart apparently has it, as do Serious Sam, Left 4 Dead, and Lego $movie. But I agree that single-screen multiplayer is not as widespread in major-label titles as the hardware allows, especially now that every PC has inputs for multiple gamepads (since USB in 1999) and nearly every new TV has inputs for VGA and HDMI video signals from a computer (since HDTVs took over around 2007). It's a chicken-and-egg problem: major labels don't make HTPC games because people don't have gaming HTPCs, and people don't have gaming HTPCs because major labels don't make HTPC games. Perhaps the way to break the cycle is to develop indie HTPC games.

Re:Application Data; HTPC gaming

[Anonymous Coward]

Any game that puts save game files in My Documents without me first confirming that location then explicitly clicking 'Save' in a file save dialog is not following the windows user interface guidelines. I hate applications that feel the need to automatically sprinkle their crap or create empty folders in My Documents, rather than the out-of-sight application data folder, and games are the worst offenders. Though don't look so smug Adobe... if I wanted a My PDF's or a My Ebooks folder in there, I'm perfectly capable of creating one myself.

Re:Application Data; HTPC gaming

[Anonymous Coward]

or promote doing what I do. My gaming rig is connected directly to my HDTV already, I just built a nicely ventilated closet into my custom entertainment center for it. The desk I normally actually game on is well out of the way of anything in the living room and everything is just hooked up via HDMI cable extensions, when I want to game on the TV I just tell the computer to output to the TV instead of the two monitors on the desk. Simple.

Re:Application Data; HTPC gaming

[Bert64]

What is it with separating things by publisher?
People aren't going to necessarily associate the name of the publisher with the name of the game/app...

Re:Application Data; HTPC gaming

[tepples]

What is it with separating things by publisher?

It's just the common naming practice in %appdata%. In the case of two applications named the same thing (remember Firefox when it was Phoenix or Firebird?), publisher folders have the advantage that these apps won't step on each other's toes.

Re:Application Data; HTPC gaming

[Tordre]

Any PC game that doesn't put saved games within in %appdata%\(publisher)\(title) or %userprofile%\My Documents is not following the Windows file system hierarchy standard and thus is not a conforming Windows application.

Just because everyone says that is where they should be saved does not mean that is where they will be saved, right now in my "My Documents" is has a folder for bioshock, ea games has it own folder, bioware has it own folder, all in My documents... there is also a save games folder built into windows that is current;y empty, Diablo 2 saves its local saves in the games folder itself. I don't remember the game but i have seen one saved on the root of the file system.

Your right they should all be in the app data folder, but is the my document folder really appropriate for save games, it just makes "my documents" a mess considering vista & 7 already have a saved games folder

You are right never is a strong word, and I thought about it as soon as I hit the submit button, I know there are some good single screen multi-player games for pc, My friends all still love playing Worms Armageddon together.

I do believe both PC and console gaming is good (for everything there is a season), I was just wanted to point out the flaw in saying a console is a crippled computer because technically with the same data one could argue a PC is a crippled game console.

Re:Repeat After Me:

[La Gris]

Mustang is a horse. :)

Re:Repeat After Me:

[English French Man]

And when they deactivate the Bluray drive because one could use it to run pirated games, it will just be a System.

Re:Repeat After Me:

[tepples]

Sorry, could you remind me what the difference is?

Unlike a video game console, a PC doesn't have these:

• SDTV output as a standard feature
• A competent* 3D chipset as a standard feature
• A prevailing mindset among developers to consider allowing multiple players to use gamepads
• Firmware with a cryptographic lockout endorsed by the major labels to keep the indie game developer riff-raff out

* As opposed to Intel "Graphics My A**" that comes on business-oriented PCs.

Re:Repeat After Me:

[Anonymous Coward]

The Civic is a CAR, not a VEHICLE.

Re:Repeat After Me:

[TheRaven64]

SDTV output as a standard feature

My last two laptops have had these.

A competent* 3D chipset as a standard feature

My last two laptops have had these.

A prevailing mindset among developers to consider allowing multiple players to use gamepads

I can think of a large number of console games that only support one player per console, and I've not come across a game for my computer for a long time that I can't play with a joypad.

Firmware with a cryptographic lockout endorsed by the major labels to keep the indie game developer riff-raff out

This seems to be the only real difference, but since the PS/3 shipped with firmware that allowed installing another OS, it doesn't seem like the PS/3 is a console either. Does XNA mean that the XBox isn't either?

Lawsuit bait

[Anonymous Coward]

Now the question is whether Geohot is careless enough to actually release a custom firmware to the public, which would be an obvious violation of Sony's copyrights. He probably will, considering how eager he's been to make a name for himself. Sony's lawyers must be licking their chops.

Re:Lawsuit bait

[Megane]

...because it's not possible to distribute it as a patch to the upgrader that is freely downloadable from Sony, like the PSP people have been doing for years now? (Sure, you can get a "magic memory stick" image with the hacked firmware pre-installed, but the "official" way is to run a patcher program on a PSP which derypts and patches an official update.)

Re:Repeat After Me:

[tepples]

My last two laptops have had these.

Because you chose them with this feature in mind. I was talking about "as a standard feature", meaning that every unit that belongs to the platform has the feature. I checked an Office Depot, and zero desktop PCs came with S-Video out. One has to learn about and then buy an obscure $40 adapter online to get that. But I'll admit that SDTV output isn't as important now that most TVs sold in the past 3 years are HDTVs with PC inputs.

Likewise with 3D performance. The high market share of the Voodoo3-class Intel GMA is still a problem plaguing the PC as a video gaming platform. A lot of people who own a Word-and-Facebook PC would need to buy a second PC for any sort of gaming more complex than Tetris and Farmville, either because it's a laptop that can't have its video card replaced or because they don't know how to open the desktop PC's case. That's why I back Acer Aspire Revo, which has an NVIDIA GPU (like the PS3) and is priced at $200 (like the Wii), as a baseline platform.

I can think of a large number of console games that only support one player per console

My point is that because HDTVs are a fairly recent development, PC games are even less likely to support multiple players. Compare PC games to Wii games, for instance: some multiplayer-heavy genres are severely underrepresented on PC. What PC game do you recommend for fans of platform fighters like Power Stone or Super Smash Bros.? And why is the latest Bomberman game for PC 13 years old?

since the PS/3 shipped with firmware that allowed installing another OS, it doesn't seem like the PS/3 is a console either.

True. The fat PS3 was a "computer entertainment system" with both console and computer modes until 3.21, when it became a game console.

Does XNA mean that the XBox isn't either?

XNA is more like the App Store on an iPhone: development is open to the general public, but XNA games can't do things that Microsoft's own software can do. Limitations of the XNA environment include an annual fee, a general orientation toward games (and not applications for creating things), no procedural audio, no conlangs, and no ports.

Re:Repeat After Me:

[Anonymous Coward]

Mustang is a cigarette.

Re:Repeat After Me:

[Anonymous Coward]

If Sony for once weren't spewing out of their asses, and the big motivator for dropping OtherOS was to save cost by not maintaining the drivers etc. then that could actually be a solution. The people who want to run OtherOS could buy a boot-CD (PS2 Linux anyone?) thereby paying the development and maintenance costs.

Re:Repeat After Me:

[Anonymous Coward]

PS3 is a GAME CONSOLE, not a COMPUTER.

Mustang is a MUSCLE CAR, not a VEHICLE!

Technically you're right, but it's a matter of missing the forest for the trees.

A NetApp is also a computer, but you don't purchase one expecting to be able to install an SQL database or a Jabber server or OpenOffice on it. A NetApp is an appliance designed to meet certain storage needs; a PS3 is an appliance for certain gaming and media needs.

Sony took away functionality from their product, and at the very least owners should be able to return the product since it no longer can fulfill certain needs. If you purchased one to play online, upgrade the firmware; if you bought one to run Linux, don't upgrade; if you wanted to do both, contact Sony about returning your product. If they don't comply find similar people and contact an attorney about possible fraud.

Those are your three best options.

Running third-party firmware is certainly possible, but I don't think it will accomplish much, especially in determining future Sony decisions.

Re:Australian Competition & Consumer Commissio

[Anonymous Coward]

Filed a complaint with the FTC. Thanks for the link.

re: proving them right

[King_TJ]

"Don't buy their products" is hardly a useful response this long after the fact! Most people I know with a PS3 purchased it YEARS ago, and are just now dealing with this firmware issue.

And furthermore, I don't *care* if piracy "convinces a corporation that stricter anti-piracy measures are the answer". The fact is, eventually, that whole "cat and mouse" game ends somewhere. Either the company tries the "let's get tough on them!" thing, pumping huge amounts of money in it, only to find it keeps failing them and they change strategies, OR they come up with something that's genuinely effective at curbing the piracy and the would-be pirates move to greener pastures.

For an example of this, look at the satellite TV providers. After years and years of "back and forth", both Dish and DirecTV now have a system that's considered "unbreakable" by the TV pirates. (It would be interesting to see how many basic subscriptions they completely lost though, since with many of the old methods of hacking their receivers, keeping at least a basic subscription was needed so the access card's ID was shown as "active" in their system.)

In this particular situation, Sony has done something pretty indefensible, because they removed a legitimate feature from their product to block THEORETICAL piracy. (GeoHot hadn't even released anything allowing PS3 software piracy. He just showed how Linux could theoretically be useful to hack into the system.) And frankly, I'm still not sure why someone can't create a bootable Linux image on DVD that runs completely from the disc a a "live distro" for a PS3, even with this "boot other OS" menu option stripped out?

Sony completely jumped the gun on this, out of nothing but fear of a potential hack -and alienated a big part of their existing customer base in the process.
Dumb move.

Is Sony going to change their ads

[WormholeFiend]

from "It only does everything" to "It no longer does everything"?

Re:Is Sony going to change their ads

[gregthebunny]

Or how about "it only does half the things we originally intended".

Re:Repeat After Me:

[Yamata no Orochi]

You're really not accomplishing anything with these posts. Just because you install a bunch of "unusual" features, or buy a PC with them pre-fabbed, does not suddenly make it not a computer anymore.

Re:Repeat After Me:

[karnal]

Sadly, the Acheivement: Accelerated Graphics Access can only be attained by infiltrating Sony.

Re:Repeat After Me:

[Mordok-DestroyerOfWo]

I'm a level 23 Network Administrator! I have 233 HP, 35 MP, and a +5 soldering iron.

Re:Repeat After Me:

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually Sony strictly forbid using the term console when referring to the PS3. When want people to call it a system because it's not just for games.

Re:Repeat After Me:

[tixxit]

I can think of a large number of console games that only support one player per console, and I've not come across a game for my computer for a long time that I can't play with a joypad.

I actually can't really think of any big budget games for the PS3 that have any real multiplayer (on the same console) support. I suppose it makes sense. Providing multiplayer support would just be a disincentive for your friends to buy the game, so why prioritize it?

Re:Repeat After Me:

[CronoCloud]

PS3 calls them Trophies, so it would be:

Trophy Acquired: Yum is Yummy!

Trophy Acquired: Ascension! (You have Ascended in Nethack)

Trophy Acquired: In your Cups (You have configured a printer)

PS3 no longer a "computer"?

[HalAtWork]

Does this mean Sony can no longer sidestep EC import taxes?

Re:PS3 no longer a "computer"?

[benarius]

And should the PS3s that have been imported over the last couple years be retroactively taxed as well?

Re:Repeat After Me:

[Anonymous Coward]

Little Big Planet would be the most prominant example.

Re:Repeat After Me:

[CronoCloud]

Nooooooooo, not a RTE disc.

That's actually a good idea, but let me tell you about that Magic RTE disc. It's the only NTSC-UC PS2 DVD manufactured in Japan, and it's...quirky. Meaning if your PS2 is starting to have DRE (disc read error) problems, it will show them first with the RTE disc. You may be able to play any game you want...but that RTE disc won't load. I have only one PS2 that can boot it now, "nibelheim", which has my retail FFXI HD in it, alongside the SOCOM maps from that magazine disk, RPG maker data, etc. "midgar", my original PS2 that first got the kit installed in it, can't boot the RTE. In addition, the HDD included with the Linux kit has boot sector errors now, they showed up in 2008 after 6 years of use. Yes, I have a spare HDD in "junon", but that PS2 (bought used as a temporary fix when I sent "midgar" back once to fix the DRE's) can't boot the RTE either anymore. "junon's" HDD does have a base Linux install though, so I could swap HDD's and boot "nibelheim" into Linux, but it would call itself "junon" in Linux.

So you can probably guess that I was pleased to learn that Linux on the PS3 wouldn't require one.

A PC is a computer, just not ideal for gaming

[tepples]

You're really not accomplishing anything with these posts. Just because you install a bunch of "unusual" features [...] does not suddenly make it not a computer anymore.

Then allow me to rephrase: A PC is a computer because it has no cryptographic lockout against the owner of the product. The fat PS3 was also a computer prior to Sony's recent actions. But a PC is not a consistent 3D gaming platform because of the unacceptable performance of Intel onboard video. And the major PC game publishers don't consider it well suited for some game genres because of path dependence related to the unaffordability of large PC monitors prior to around 2007.

Re:Repeat After Me:

[Clandestine_Blaze]

Yet, Sony was able to save millions of Euros in import taxes by declaring the PS3 a computer and NOT a game console, thanks to the OtherOS option.

They can't have it both ways.

Missing genres

[tepples]

Build a PC with a faster CPU, more RAM, bigger hard drive in a Media Center case, buy a XBOX 360 game controller (either USB or buy XBOX wireless receiver for PC), plug it in (or use wireless) and play 99% of the games out there.

Street Fighter IV is a worthwhile traditional fighting game, but some people prefer platform-fighting games like Power Stone or Super Smash Bros. Can you recommend one of those for the PC?

Most of the games out there come out to PC sooner or later.

Some genres tend not to. What's the closest thing on PC to Mario Party series? Or Animal Crossing (cartoon social simulator)? Or Katamari (platformer based on absorbing scenery)? Or Amplitude (abstract music game)?

Re:Missing genres

[HeronBlademaster]

Or Amplitude (abstract music game)?

I've never heard of Amplitude, but Audiosurf is a pretty good music-focused PC game. (Sorry if they're completely different. What, you want me to Google Amplitude? I, uh, have to go.)

But it wasn't enough...

[Junta]

I think I agree with you that making it easy for hobbyists mitigated their efforts to design something that would have inevitably be used for unauthorized copies.

On that philosophy, their locking down access to the GPU was a critical mistake, because PS3 loses a lot of flexibility without that.

If the platform were fully open in all capabilities, with game-elected DRM, I suspect the DRM would have lasted much longer than it will.

Re: proving them right

[Sancho]

"Don't buy their products" is hardly a useful response this long after the fact! Most people I know with a PS3 purchased it YEARS ago, and are just now dealing with this firmware issue.

Sony has a history of screwing with their customers. This history began before the PS3. People decided to buy a PS3 anyway.

Re:Repeat After Me:

[Anonymous Coward]

Mustang is a plane.

Re: proving them right

[HeronBlademaster]

And frankly, I'm still not sure why someone can't create a bootable Linux image on DVD that runs completely from the disc a a "live distro" for a PS3, even with this "boot other OS" menu option stripped out?

I'm sure it's because you'd still have to modify the PS3's boot loader to check if there's a bootable DVD in the drive... but isn't that what the "OtherOS" option is managing for you (except for doing it on the hard drive)?

Re:Australian Competition & Consumer Commissio

[exomondo]

Mine was pretty similar to yours. Haven't heard back yet.

Not gonna' last.

[jseale]

Sony is gonna' take to this the way Palm took to iTunes as in WHACK!!

Re:Repeat After Me:

[Anonymous Coward]

Mustang is a horse. :)

Mustang is a plane?

Re:Repeat After Me:

[mr_mischief]

Sorry, but my motherboard has HDMI out and a Radeon HD 3400-series graphics system. My OS of choice considers a joystick to be just another USB device to be mapped.

Re:Repeat After Me:

[tepples]

Sorry, but my motherboard has HDMI out

HDMI out doesn't help if the SDTV in your living room hasn't worn out yet. For that, you need VGA out and an obscure $40 adapter from sewelldirect.com.

and a Radeon HD 3400-series graphics system.

AMD motherboard, I take it? I'd bet Intel ships more chipsets with GMA per year than AMD ships onboard Radeon chips. My point is that just having a PC doesn't guarantee competent 3D hardware.

My OS of choice considers a joystick to be just another USB device to be mapped.

But do your games of choice recognize any USB input device other than a keyboard and mouse? And do they recognize more than one at a time so that your visiting friends can control their characters?

Re:Repeat After Me:

[mr_mischief]

Of my older motherboards and cheap add-in video cards, about three quarters have had composite TV out or SVideo, and sometimes both. Most of the SVideo ones included an SVideo to composite adapter.

My current motherboard uses an AMD chipset, but the motherboard itself is an ECS Black Series. It cost a whopping $70 or so. That's less than half what I paid for memory for it and less than a third of what I paid for a processor. The only components in the whole system that are cheaper by list price are the optical drive and the case fans. I got the case itself cheaper on clearance because ThermalTake quit making the model.

Most of my games that do single-computer multi-player do in fact support multiple game pads, and even multiple separate mice and keyboards. Many PC games for Windows or Linux aren't multi-player on a single system, though, which is where the consoles really shine.

On consoles, there are some single-player games (even the Wii, known as a party system, has some single-player only titles), but those are the exceptions. Most console titles are multi-player even with just one console.

The biggest difference doesn't seem to me to be support for the peripherals, but the initial decision of how many systems are needed for multi-player. Granted, most quite modern PC systems (from the last two years or so) can run two and sometimes more separate installations of games from just a few years ago in separate virtual machines on the same actual hardware, each player with a separate monitor.

My wife and I have a console collection which includes Atari 2600, Colecovision, Intellivision, NES, Super Nintendo, Wii, PSP, and DS. We also have a few of the specialty ones, like the Cadaco at-home Buzztime trivia system and a couple of the plug-in controllers with knock-offs of retro games. We'll probably pick up a Flashback or something sometime. We have the PSP (mostly for me) and the DS (mostly for her) because they are portable. We have the Wii because the developers have really pulled off some great party games for it and some really good uses of the Wii Remote and the Nunchuk. The Wii, Super Nintendo, and the NES are the three that are always hooked up. My wife plays her DS about as often as not when she's ready for bed and doesn't want to get wrapped up too deeply in a book before going to sleep.

Our non-console computers that still work include C64, Atari 600XL, Amiga 2000, a G3 iMac, a G4 PowerMac, a Palm 3 for my wife, an iPaq for me, PC laptops (386, Celeron, and a Pentium M), and desktops from 386 through Phenom II x4. We have two XP systems and a Win7 system on the switch along with an OSX, two Mandriva boxes (one a laptop), and a Fedora box. Most of the others just sit unplugged most of the time. There's still room on the switch and on the AP for friends to bring systems over. We really don't care how many people can be on the same PC to play most games. Most games we play can play on at least three of those systems.

I realize we aren't the typical computer users. Having two or three PCs in the house is not that uncommon, though. People get a new system and keep the old one a while. They'll have a high-end desktop and a lower-end laptop for the road. A husband and wife often keep separate systems after they get married, because a PC really can be personal. People get PCs for their kids (or new ones for themselves and give the old ones to the kids).

You have to be fairly serious about games to have two XBoxes, two PS/3s, or two Wiis in the same house. I do know people who do, just like I know people who have all three of those consoles or who have dozens and dozens of role-playing game supplements. Still, I think two or more PCs in a house is more likely than two PS3s. Multi-user on the same system therefore isn't as big a selling point.

Re:Repeat After Me:

[tepples]

The biggest difference doesn't seem to me to be support for the peripherals, but the initial decision of how many systems are needed for multi-player.

I agree. This is what I meant by "A prevailing mindset among developers to consider allowing multiple players to use gamepads". My best guess is that until HDTVs became common over the last three years, PC monitors just weren't big enough for four people to fit around. And even after adoption of HDTV, makers of media center PCs still haven't managed to market their way into the public's living rooms.

Having two or three PCs in the house is not that uncommon, though. People get a new system and keep the old one a while.

For one thing, the old one is likely to have an obsolete video card and/or obsolete operating system that newer games don't support. For another, you still have to buy a separate copy of each game because few PC games allow for anything like the first Starcraft's spawn installation. Is it cheaper to buy one copy of a console game at $60 or four copies of a PC game at $40 each?

Re:Repeat After Me:

[mr_mischief]

It's cheaper to buy four $10 bin games that are less than a year old, obviously. Try that with a PS3. ;-) That's not to mention Nexuiz, Sauerbrauten, TuxKart, Quake 3, Wormux, Pingus, Commander Stalin, TORCS, ManiaDrive, and lots of other free stuff that doesn't run on consoles. Consoles have their place, but so do PCs. Board and card games do, too.