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New Russian Science City Modeled On Silicon Valley

Hugh Pickens writes "Russia's rich scientific traditions and poor record of converting ideas into marketable products are both undisputed, cited as causes for the Soviet collapse and crippling dependence on mining and petroleum. Now the NY Times reports that the Russian government, hoping to diversify its economy away from oil, is building the first new scientific city since the collapse of the Soviet Union modeled, improbably, on Silicon Valley and jokingly referred to as Cupertino-2. 'The whole country needs some sort of breakthrough,' says Viktor F. Vekselberg, the Russian business oligarch appointed co-director of the project. 'The founding of the innovation city, in form and substance, could be a launching pad for the country as a whole.' The new town is intended to advance five scientific priorities — communications, biomedicine, space, nuclear power, and energy conservation — and to encourage cross-fertilization among disciplines. Property will not be owned, but rented, and the government will offer grants for scientists who struggle to find private financing. Once developed, the city is intended to incubate scientific ideas using generous tax holidays and government grants until the start-ups can become profitable companies. Its backers in government and the private sector describe it as an effort to blend the Soviet tradition of forming scientific towns with Western models of encouraging technology ventures around universities. 'In California, the climate is beautiful and they don't have the ridiculous problems of Russia,' says Andrey Shtorkh, publicist for the new venture, adding that to compete, Russia will form a place apart for scientists. 'They should be isolated from our reality.'"

213 comments

  1. Five Year Plan by PeterBrett · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Well, I hope that this centrally-dictated economic activity works better than the 20th century ones did.

    1. Re:Five Year Plan by Cryacin · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Science is one thing that if done right under socialism works best. I definitely do not promote a Socialist or Communist political environment as being overall good/bad/otherwise, merely that science does not have definite returns, and if it does, the timeframe is very rarely visible/correct on prediction.

      This means that generally there is too much risk for a commercial enterprise to indefinitely fund research into something that may or may not provide payoffs, and if it does, perhaps not into their current vehicles. I.e. fusion power may be discovered by a deep sea mining company, meaning that they would need to form a completely new company and structure.

      If science is a socialist thing, then it is about the research and the ability to do something, rather than the added complexity of having what you find to be applicable to your sponsor. This will definitely be an interesting space.

      --
      Science advances one funeral at a time- Max Planck
    2. Re:Five Year Plan by Trepidity · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Yeah, it's interesting how much that's true even in the mainly capitalist US. The most significant private-sector research was at quasi-governmental regulated monopolies, like the heydey of Bell Labs. Most research these days ends up being funded by the National Science Foundation, National Institutes of Health, or similar government body. Certainly most fundamental research is: I don't know of any significant physics research that's come out of the private sector since the Bell Labs days.

    3. Re:Five Year Plan by countertrolling · · Score: 2, Funny

      Science is one thing that if done right under socialism works best.

      Cable is another..

      --
      For justice, we must go to Don Corleone
    4. Re:Five Year Plan by TapeCutter · · Score: 1

      "Well, I hope that this centrally-dictated economic activity works better than the 20th century ones did."

      If you had read more than the word "soviet" you would have noticed it is actually five centrally-located scientific activities.

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    5. Re:Five Year Plan by fpitech · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I think it's more about the death of basic research than private versus public funding. Companies nowadays don't want to invest in basic research because they are risky and long term investments. In my opinion, companies in general are rather investing in marketing and short-term projects that only rarely result in radical innovations, but are marketed as "innovative" despite not offering significant benefits compared to old products.

    6. Re:Five Year Plan by Kirijini · · Score: 1

      If science is a socialist thing, then it is about the research and the ability to do something, rather than the added complexity of having what you find to be applicable to your sponsor.

      I think most innovation occurs without a "sponsor" of the sort you're talking about. That is to say, I think most innovation happens when the source material (the ideas, research, infrastructure, etc.) is cheap or free, as would occur inside an existing organization, but importantly, there also needs to be no imposed mission other than to make money. An enterprise (almost) always wants innovative ideas/applications to fit their current business model, and this means the vast majority of workable innovative ideas/applications are discarded.

      Entrepreneurship, however, is all about creating a workable business model around innovative products or services. To foster entrepreneurship, the initial costs must be inversely proportional to the risk - the more money needed to start a business in any given field, the less risk there must be that it'll pay off. Since entrepreneurship typically occurs outside of an existing enterprise (Google and its 20% time may be an exception; I don't know enough about it to say really) where the initial inputs are essentially free, that means that, in the tech field where necessarily everything is expensive to develop at first, but is cheap to copy afterwards except for restrictions due to IP laws, innovation occurs when you can steal ideas and employees as well as appropriate existing infrastructure. See Apple stealing from Xerox, Microsoft stealing from Apple, internet businesses relying on customers to pay their ISPs for access, and ISPs to pay for network infrastructure, etc. etc.

      So, you argued that having a paying sponsor for research adds complexities that slows down innovation (well, you said science, but the article is about Russia wanting its own Silicon Valley, and I dare say Silicon Valley is about innovation and not basic science). I think that's true, but the answer isn't socialism/communism,* because while that might lower the initial costs, it doesn't provide a big enough payout in the end to justify the risk. Entrepreneurs aren't going to risk years of their lives recklessly chasing their dreams to be rich, if "rich" is only marginally better off than they would be if they followed the easy path and took a job with a guaranteed career path and salary.

      Whether or not Russia counts as a socialist/communist state anymore is a different question. The summary indicating that "Property will not be owned, but rented" is not an encouraging sign, though.

      * I'm very gung-ho socialist when it comes to things like basic science, healthcare, labor conditions, reigning in too-big-to-fail businesses, limiting commercial speech, etc., but when it comes to sussing out what people want to consume, you really can't beat the market.

    7. Re:Five Year Plan by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In Soviet Russia, cities model you

      Actually it should read "In the West". Soviet propaganda sometimes mentioned people getting fooled and shortchanged by the money and glitter of the cities.

    8. Re:Five Year Plan by mjwx · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Yeah, it's interesting how much that's true even in the mainly capitalist US. The most significant private-sector research was at quasi-governmental regulated monopolies, like the heydey of Bell Labs. Most research these days ends up being funded by the National Science Foundation, National Institutes of Health, or similar government body. Certainly most fundamental research is: I don't know of any significant physics research that's come out of the private sector since the Bell Labs days.

      I think the operative words in the GP's post was "science done right under communism". A socialist agenda may be more conducive to this but I believe the operative term is still "done right".

      We need only look at the advances to come out of organisations like CSIRO in Australia or NASA in the US to see that government backed research yields good results in the long term. I'm certain there are dozens of other organisations we could name and this is before we look at the contributions of universities, which at least in Australia receive significant backing from the government.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    9. Re:Five Year Plan by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 2, Informative

      Well, I hope that this centrally-dictated economic activity works better than the 20th century ones did.

      It doesn't work when corruption is rampant all the way up to the top, and there is no institutionalized mechanism of repression as there was in USSR (where large scale economic crimes could carry death penalty). Which is the case in today's Russia.

      It's not the first time they tout something as a "Russian Silicon Valley", either. There was a project in Siberia, and then there was Dubna. They've actually built some infrastructure in both cases, and both ended up as failures.

      The reason is very simple. If you define "Russian Silicon Valley" as the place for IT innovation and business where Russians work, then it already exists - it's U.S. (and other western countries). Why stay if you can move to a place with a higher standard of living?

    10. Re:Five Year Plan by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We only need only look at the advances to come out of organisations like CSIRO in Australia

      Excuse me? Like what?

    11. Re:Five Year Plan by Hognoxious · · Score: 3, Funny

      Kangaroos. With frickin' stinger missiles!

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    12. Re:Five Year Plan by mjwx · · Score: 3, Informative

      Excuse me? Like what?

      I don't respond to AC's normally and I don't really need the Karma for this but...

      Do you mean "what is CSIRO"?

      Australian Commonwealth Scientific and Research Organisation.

      Or did you mean what are CSIRO's accomplishments (and I hope you're on Wifi being eaten by mosquito's for this one because Wireless LAN and Aeroguard are on that list).

      CSIRAC was the forth stored program computer ever made and one of only two first generation computers still intact.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    13. Re:Five Year Plan by SpaghettiPattern · · Score: 0

      Science is one thing that if done right under socialism works best.

      What? A commie? Here in this holy forum? (Loads shotgun.)

      I definitely do not promote a Socialist or Communist political environment

      Oh well, he seems god fearing.(Eases grip on shotgun and chews tobacco.)

      as being overall good/bad/otherwise

      (Chokes on tobacco.) Hell, he's not condemning the commies!? (Frantically hops about with shotgun and bids her wife Martha-Jane good bey 'cause he'll be off on a crusade.)

      I take your point that science needs a form of altruism in order to be independent. I merely wanted to illustrate that the strong feelings certain people foster against communism condition us into excusing ourselves for using the C-word and writing disclaimers, basically telling people that coffee is hot and that you shouldn't pour it on your testicles.

      DISCLAIMERS:

      • Sorry for using the C-word myself
      • I am not a commie. (Shit here I go again.)
      • In fact I think commies -oh well...- should be individually prosecuted for being idiots ruining the world by wanting to impose their lofty ideology on every one, including their own ilk.
      • Coffee is hot and that you shouldn't pour it on your testicles.
      --

      I hadn't the slightest objection to his spending his time planning massacres for the bourgeoisie... (P.G. Wodehouse)
    14. Re:Five Year Plan by clarkkent09 · · Score: 1

      Science is one thing that if done right under socialism works best.

      Umm, do you have any real world examples to back that up? Yes, a lot of funding for science comes from the government, even in capitalist system, but there is also funding from private universities the best of which tend to be in capitalist countries, not least because they tend to be quite wealthy. Also, while private sector might not have strong incentives to invest in basic research, there is a lot of research that falls under science that is done within private companies, in non-profit research labs funded by private money, or in university research departments also sponsored by private money. In any case, that is not the issue here. What they are trying to do is convert that research into commercial products and that historically is not done well under a government plan.

      --
      Negative moral value of force outweighs the positive value of good intentions.
    15. Re:Five Year Plan by icebike · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The whole country needs some sort of breakthrough,' says Viktor F. Vekselberg, the Russian business oligarch appointed co-director of the project.

      The new boss, same as the old boss.

      Silicon valley was not a government project. And starting a state run program to create what happened spontaneously elsewhere in an environment where competition and markets prevailed is doomed to failure.

      Great way to build a moon rocket or a hydroelectric Dam, and to copy other technology, but hardly the way to spark creativity and new inventions.

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    16. Re:Five Year Plan by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Russians nowadays for the most part do not care for a state ideology, but while in the USA you still have to be careful when talking about communism. Talk about the USA being a "free" country: formally free but informally still reluctant.

    17. Re:Five Year Plan by dbIII · · Score: 1

      WiFi for one.

    18. Re:Five Year Plan by Jedi+Alec · · Score: 1

      (Frantically hops about with shotgun and bids her wife Martha-Jane good bey 'cause he'll be off on a crusade.)

      Her wife, eh? You were doing quite well on the whole gun-totin', god-fearing' redneck shtick, but then you turned out to be a lesbian...

      Shame about your confusion between socialism and communism too...I mean, I know you 'merkins like to twist the meaning of words till it suits the political agenda of the day, but if they were one and the same we'd have gone with one word over the other by now.

      --

      People replying to my sig annoy me. That's why I change it all the time.
    19. Re:Five Year Plan by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "What they are trying to do is convert that research into commercial products and that historically is not done well under a government plan."

      Agreed.

      too many things wrong with the idea that Science is best under socialism. Just one aspect of scientific research is good under government planning.

      Science needs technology, and technology needs science. The soviets had to rip off all the west technology and never invented anything. You can have great research but someone has to take that research and turn it into a business. That start-up creativity is a huge thing. And I don't see how any socialist systems are going to make that mad chaotic process work. How many great companies and products were believed in no one, until they actually worked...

      So maybe a lot of great science has happened under government financing, but they were using private sector technology to do that research and often with close relationships with companies along the way.

    20. Re:Five Year Plan by couchslug · · Score: 1

      It's nothing more that "cargo cult" development.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_cult

      --
      "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
    21. Re:Five Year Plan by pigwiggle · · Score: 1

      My understanding was that private industry spent an order of magnitude more than the government on fundamental research. Am I wrong? I just finished a stint doing basic research at Sandia National Labs, funded entirely by a private industry consortium. Sandia didn't contribute a single dollar. Which isn't uncommon for fundamental research at that lab in particular. And as far as "significant", the private sector has been plowing ahead in fields like nano and biotech - while, I'll add, the government has been debating stuff like the ethics of stem cell research. I don't know if there is more money coming from private or public sources. But it seems the parent and GP are simply speculating. I'd like to see some reliable numbers.

      --
      46 & 2
    22. Re:Five Year Plan by pigwiggle · · Score: 1
      --
      46 & 2
    23. Re:Five Year Plan by yao19990 · · Score: 1

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    24. Re:Five Year Plan by LWATCDR · · Score: 3, Informative

      I think you are mistaking socialism with a mature and financially stable company.
      Bell back in the regulated monopoly days was with out a doubt mature and financially stable. They could do research that might not pay off for 30 years because they knew they would be around in 30 years to benefit from it. They also built infrastructure that would last for decades even if it cost more for that same reason.
      IBM still produces a lot of basic science for that same reason. They believe that they will be around for another 100 years. GE, DuPont, and Dow chemical used to and probably still do a lot of basic research for that same reason. They are mature and frankly a lot of their profitability is based on science so they benefit from research.
      Even folks like Chrysler back in the 50s got into some pretty wild stuff. Did you know the rocket that launched the first US satellite and the first Mercury sub orbital flight was made by Chrysler?
      Intel is probably reaching the level of maturity and long term profitably that they will start doing a lot of long term research.
      The problem is that the best research will come from companies that do some kind of manufacturing which the US is doing less and less of.
      Take Apple for example. They are not a manufacturing company they are closer to a fashion design house combined with a software developer. Nothing wrong with it but they just don't make stuff. They make pretty packages that they pay other people to fill with stuff Intel and others make. I honestly don't expect anything really ground breaking from them.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    25. Re:Five Year Plan by Shotgun · · Score: 1

      Science is one thing that if done right under socialism works best.

      Except that science can't be "done right under socialism".

      The problem is that under socialism, you get scientist like Dr. Floyd Ferris from "Atlas Shrugged". It's not a black and white switch, and there are lots of gray areas, but under a capitalist system there is a constant drive to turn a discovery into a usable, marketable invention. IOW, you have to actually solve a problem that people are having. A socialist system removes that drive.

      A socialist system replaces the drive to convince other sentient beings that you have a solution to their problems, with the drive to please a bureaucrat. What pleases the bureaucrat changes with whoever happens to be in control. One year, the in thing will be techniques for finding more buried oil. Next, it will be ways to put men on Mars. The next year the emphasis will be innovative ways to treat foot fungus. What often happens is that something interesting is discovered, but there isn't any incentive to turn it into a marketable product. Heh! What were we saying about the state of science under the former Soviet Union? Also consider the almost socialist nature of the former Bell Labs (God rest its soul). How long did the transistor technology lie dormant before it being picked up and put to useful work?

      Which one is better? IMO ... neither. One sacrifices the long term, the other sacrifices turning the science into useful technology. It's a mix that advances society. The Russians should build the city with a purely scientific center, surrounded by a ring of engineers that are tasked with solving problems. The engineers will be the only ones allowed to make requests of the scientist for scientific investigation.

      --
      Aah, change is good. -- Rafiki
      Yeah, but it ain't easy. -- Simba
    26. Re:Five Year Plan by Glonoinha · · Score: 1

      Well there was that whole 'first man in space' thing.
      See also, Yuri Gagarin

      --
      Glonoinha the MebiByte Slayer
    27. Re:Five Year Plan by StrategicIrony · · Score: 1

      debating stuff like the ethics of stem cell research

      I think we were talking about the history of science funded research, before the fundies took over the popular culture with voodoo predictions of certain moral doom... at least in the scientific realm.

      There were fundies back in the day that thought going to the moon would bring down the wrath of god, but they were (rightly) laughed off the podium.

      Not today, alas.

    28. Re:Five Year Plan by holmstar · · Score: 1
      You could have included a summary:

      Overall, industry provides about 60% of all R&D funds, and the federal government provides about 35%. Industry performs about 70% of the R&D, federal labs and universities each perform about 13%, and other nonprofits perform about 3%.

    29. Re:Five Year Plan by quenda · · Score: 1

      because Wireless LAN and Aeroguard are on that list)

      Aeroguard!? Active ingredient is DEET, which was developed by the US Army.
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DEET#History

    30. Re:Five Year Plan by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

      I.e. fusion power may be discovered by a deep sea mining company, meaning that they would need to form a completely new company and structure.

      I see. You are suggesting that the ITER people should be put under heavy pressure.

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    31. Re:Five Year Plan by IICV · · Score: 1

      ... and how exactly is a mature and financially stable company different from a mature and financially stable government? Besides being, you know, smaller and less interested in the public good?

    32. Re:Five Year Plan by pigwiggle · · Score: 1

      That's a shitty summary. The article cites the percent of basic or fundamental research (considered so by the NSF) as something entirely different. But I'm not going to quote that either. If people are interested they should RTFA - not some half assed summary.

      --
      46 & 2
    33. Re:Five Year Plan by LWATCDR · · Score: 1

      "... and how exactly is a mature and financially stable company different from a mature and financially stable government?"

      Well show me one and there may not be any!

      Historically I have yet to see any nation that fits your description outside of a few in North Europe.
      But the big difference I see is that those governments have less interest in long term benefits.
      They have to look at there limited resources which belong to the people. After they take care of all the needs of the populous today they have two choices of what to do with the left over resources. They can spend them on research of give them back to the people to spend on luxury and entertainment. Most of the time luxury and entertainment seems to win out. See Norway and Sweden as examples of those. BTW very nice places to live I hear but not hot beads of basic research.
      Of course when that doesn't win out those nations tend to have some grand plan which often goes terribly astray and is a total disaster. Just a look at the UK in any of it flirtations with socialism will provide great examples of those. Or they are extremity dogmatic and repressive governments see eastern Europe and South America for examples of those.

      So honestly they just don't seem to go together historically. In theory yes you are correct but I have yet to see any historical example of it in action.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    34. Re:Five Year Plan by holmstar · · Score: 1

      Waa waa waa... You had originally asked about how much research was funded by industry vs. government. That excerpt directly answers the question, so it's hardly shitty. Get over yourself.

  2. We got tons of laurels by BadAnalogyGuy · · Score: 1

    What a bunch of rubes. If they didn't screw up so badly last century, they could take a nice long rest on some laurels like us Americans.

    1. Re:We got tons of laurels by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      If they didn't screw up so badly last century

      Yeah, if only they could sit out WW2 with no attacks on their soil, and very minor (in comparison) casualties in overseas conflicts, rather than providing most of manpower and industry that won the war...

    2. Re:We got tons of laurels by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He's probably not saying what you think he's saying.

      http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/rest+on+laurels

  3. I won't be impressed by Jeian · · Score: 4, Funny

    ... unless they pack it into one giant building and call it an arcology.

    1. Re:I won't be impressed by dunkelfalke · · Score: 1

      I'll rather have that arcology in Cairo.

      --
      "It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
    2. Re:I won't be impressed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      MCU's main building:

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Moscow#The_campus

      Close enough?

  4. Hard to build a diverse technology zone by CRCulver · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Though I couldn't link to it now, several weeks ago I read an analysis of this plan that was rather pessimistic. Earlier Russian scientific communities were, for all the lip service paid to science, really dedicated to furthering atomic weaponry. There was never a great diversity of scientific exploration going on within them, and Russia thus has no experience with establishing communities that can actually create profitable technologies that will boost the country's economy.

    1. Re:Hard to build a diverse technology zone by Cassius+Corodes · · Score: 1

      Russia has no experience establishing communities that don't have endemic corruption and government mismanagement. If anything that is what is going to sink this project.

      --
      Control is an illusion, order our comforting lie. From chaos, through chaos, into chaos we fly
    2. Re:Hard to build a diverse technology zone by Yvanhoe · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Earlier Russian scientific communities were, for all the lip service paid to science, really dedicated to furthering atomic weaponry. There was never a great diversity of scientific exploration going on within them, and Russia thus has no experience with establishing communities that can actually create profitable technologies that will boost the country's economy.

      Another way of saying is just that they missed the IT train. But to dismiss their level in aeronautics, space, physics (tokamaks anyone ?) is a bit exaggerated. I think that through this plan they will try to come back on the IT scene and that they have good opportunities for that. We all know about the Russian hackers, it means that they have a wealth of capable and educated people there.

      --
      The Wise adapts himself to the world. The Fool adapts the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the Fool.
    3. Re:Hard to build a diverse technology zone by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You might be interested to know that tokamaks don't work very well.

    4. Re:Hard to build a diverse technology zone by MRe_nl · · Score: 1

      Humanity has no experience establishing communities that don't have endemic corruption and government mismanagement. If anything that is what is going to sink this project.

      --
      "Kill 'em all and let Root sort 'em out"
    5. Re:Hard to build a diverse technology zone by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I would be pessimistic about this, too. The key difference between Russia and Silicon Valley is that in Silicon Valley you don't get attacked or discriminated against for not being Russian like you do in Russia.

    6. Re:Hard to build a diverse technology zone by Yvanhoe · · Score: 1

      Oh, I know that Z-pinch machines and laser inertial confinements are all the rage now. They really are sexy beasts. But right now if you want to sustain a high-temperature fusion reaction during several seconds (minutes ?) you only have tokamaks.

      --
      The Wise adapts himself to the world. The Fool adapts the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the Fool.
    7. Re:Hard to build a diverse technology zone by SolitaryMan · · Score: 5, Interesting

      As a programmer living in Russia I can tell you that nobody here believes in this plan. Forget the plan, nobody believes that intentions of this project are other than getting budget funds and sharing them among fellow "companies".

      Besides, this is not the first time (4rth, IIRC) the "Silicon Valley" is being built here, so nobody seems to give a crap anymore.

      --
      May Peace Prevail On Earth
    8. Re:Hard to build a diverse technology zone by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As a programmer living in Russia I can tell you that nobody here believes in this plan.

      For argument's sake, what are some things that programmers (or general folks) in Russia do believe in?

    9. Re:Hard to build a diverse technology zone by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      Also note that Silicon Valley was not designed, it just happened. A few high tech firms were there as well a few major research institutions, offshoots from these places started companies in the same area, and eventually gravity just starts sucking in more companies. The same ingredients have been in other places in the US but sometimes without the same results, sometimes with similar results. Where there are several companies in a particular field, others will want to be located in the same area, as well as related support and service industries. You can't just "design" this.

    10. Re:Hard to build a diverse technology zone by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      The 1 key ingredient in Silicon Valley's success that I haven't seen mentioned is the Universities. Part of the reason Silicon Valley happened where it did was the proximity to Stanford, UC Berkeley and, to a lesser extent, UC Santa Cruz, Santa Clara and a few other local universities. Many of the big companies in the area either started as research projects at the various schools or were started by graduates of those schools who stayed in the area after college. And the companies in the area benefit from a constant supply of new graduates who are intelligent, well-trained and able to put in long hours for lower pay.

      Without designing in multiple world-class universities, you won't be able to replicate what happened in Silicon Valley.

  5. Russian Field of Dreams by JakartaDean · · Score: 1

    If you build it, venture capitalists will come?

    --
    The subject who is truly loyal to the Chief Magistrate will neither advise nor submit to arbitrary measures (Junius)
    1. Re:Russian Field of Dreams by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      They're trying to lure Sergey Brin back to the motherland.

    2. Re:Russian Field of Dreams by eparker05 · · Score: 1

      I don't think the venture capitalists will bite.

      I'm all for laissez-faire, but rather than building a city based on taking that philosophy to the extreme (in mother Russia, the government PAYS tax to the business), they could pass laws to make the whole country more business friendly. Small business hate red tape because it stifles their growth, large business secretly love red tape because startups cannot navigate around it.

      Everybody knows those business friendly cities are merely bait and switch anyways. If the next Google is founded there and their yearly income is measured in billions, do you think Russian regulators will still extol the virtues of tax holidays?

    3. Re:Russian Field of Dreams by Trepidity · · Score: 1

      They're that upset about their PageRank, eh?

    4. Re:Russian Field of Dreams by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      I'm all for laissez-faire, but rather than building a city based on taking that philosophy to the extreme (in mother Russia, the government PAYS tax to the business), they could pass laws to make the whole country more business friendly. Small business hate red tape because it stifles their growth, large business secretly love red tape because startups cannot navigate around it.

      You know who loves red tape even more than big businesses? Government bureaucrats, who can use it to extort bribes (so that wheels finally start to get turning).

      And here's the fun fact: in Russia, today, there are more (depending on who you ask, by anywhere from 1.5x to 3.x) government bureaucrats than there was in the USSR - with a population less than half of the latter.

    5. Re:Russian Field of Dreams by Hognoxious · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If the next Google is founded there and their yearly income is measured in billions, do you think Russian regulators will still extol the virtues of tax holidays?

      They'd most likely change the tax laws retroactively, send you a huge bill (plus penalties, plus interest, plus interest on the penalties) totalling ten times the entire world's GNP[1], seize the company and then sell it in an open auction with only one bidder who happens to be one of Putin's puppets.

      If you're lucky.

      [1] GGP?

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    6. Re:Russian Field of Dreams by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      The thing that most people overlook is that innovation happens best when a place has two key features: laws that apply the same to everyone and change slowly, and strong property rights (it is clear who owns the land and voluntary transferral of ownership is easy). The U.S. used to have both of these. The first has been gradually eroded since WWII (probably going back to just before WWI, but I would have to do a little more research to be sure of that). The second ended decisively with the Kelo vs the City of New London case

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
  6. biggest challenge by ridgecritter · · Score: 2, Insightful

    They have intelligence and creativity. Their biggest challenge will be isolation from the corruption that seems endemic to Russia in this time. Corruption is pure poison to economic systems intended to be based on merit in markets. Like adding >300% to your company's overhead...how do you compete, even with fantastic ideas/tech?

  7. How many times had this been tried? by NicknamesAreStupid · · Score: 1

    Research Triangle, Austin, Irvine . . . I don't think you can copy this culture. Bangalore comes the closest but actually got started in the 1970s, before Silicon Valley was the model. Everybody here is from somewhere else, including Russia. Where inside Russia could you draw that kind of international crowd?

  8. Silicon Valley by Rapsey · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Was never built. It grew.

    1. Re:Silicon Valley by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How is bullding formed?
      how is building formed

      how city get constructed

    2. Re:Silicon Valley by M.+Baranczak · · Score: 1

      The initial conditions for Silicon Valley's growth arose through dumb luck. There's no reason why you couldn't replicate those conditions with a planned approach. So it could work - but I don't think it will, since this is Russia we're talking about.

  9. Naive to say the least by EEPROMS · · Score: 2, Insightful

    putting a group if geeks in one spot and throwing money at it wont work, the Japanese did the same and it failed miserable. You have to have not only bright scientists but people who know how to manage and sell the ideas that are created by these people. Im an ideas man in my company but I will be the first to admit without good assistance from those around me I would have given up on many of my concepts within the first hour.

    1. Re:Naive to say the least by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're an idiot. The reason it did not work in Japan is because they did not have brilliant scientists, they had nerds who were just memorising information rather than actually being able to understand it, and innovate. For that reason, the japanese get the highest scores on the test (gres, mcats...) but it is the Jews and Russians that get the Nobel Prizes, Field Medals...

      And in your case, you should have given up during the first hour, as I am certain you don't have the mind to create anything new... by all means do link us to your peer reviewed published work. You're an "ideas man"? lol what a joke.

    2. Re:Naive to say the least by mjwx · · Score: 1

      putting a group if geeks in one spot and throwing money at it wont work, the Japanese did the same and it failed miserable. You have to have not only bright scientists but people who know how to manage and sell the ideas that are created by these people.

      No, not marketers. They will ruin a good idea faster then just throwing money at scientists.

      What you need is direction and goals. A person who is capable of evaluating results and pouring the resources into that project or if need by stopping a project that is dangerous or will not yield anything useful. Selling the ideas just creates the same problem we have now, no real theoretical work is being done as everything that is done must make a profit so it's all applicable science (this means we are not really progressing, just streamlining existing ideas).

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    3. Re:Naive to say the least by eugene2k · · Score: 1

      The GP actually has a point. But it is addressed in the OP: there won't just be scientists working there, but also businessmen since "Russia's rich scientific traditions and poor record of converting ideas into marketable products are both undisputed".

      --
      Apple has "Mac vs PC", Microsoft has "Laptop Hunters", Linux has recession
    4. Re:Naive to say the least by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The single most important factor to moving forward in science:

      The ability to fail, then get back up and start over.

      In its start, Silicon Valley had a few big companies, but it was that there were hundreds of small companies, each trying something new and different -- and then people from the failed companies moving to other ones -- that caused it to be a powerhouse.

      If the Russians want to duplicate Silicon Valley, they need to allow a culture that questions everything, tests everything, and is allowed to fail. I don't see that kind of culture coming from any centralized bureaucracy.

  10. Achilles heel by copponex · · Score: 2, Insightful

    A major defect of capitalism is that it will tend to cater to the lowest common denominator. If everyone invests in the idea that science (evolutionary bioengineering, alternative energy development, vaccines, space exploration) is bad, then the whole economy and culture is going to go south pretty quickly. When China owns the factories and the intellectual property, things won't be looking so good.

    And if Palin and Huckabee end up bickering over which day should be Jesus Day, all I can say is, good game America. It was fun while it lasted.

  11. Breakthrough! by Victor+Liu · · Score: 1

    You mean to say they plan to also build a weather machine to replicate the ever sunny skies here?

    1. Re:Breakthrough! by eugene2k · · Score: 1

      Nah, they'll just make holographic representation of a sunny sky - just like in Racoon City

      --
      Apple has "Mac vs PC", Microsoft has "Laptop Hunters", Linux has recession
  12. Re:Weather machine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You mean to say they plan to also build a weather machine to replicate the ever sunny skies here?

    Why bother? They'll finally build the atomic sun!

  13. Why is Silicon Valley successful? by rsborg · · Score: 3, Interesting
    This article says:

    I think you only need two kinds of people to create a technology hub: rich people and nerds. They're the limiting reagents in the reaction that produces startups, because they're the only ones present when startups get started. Everyone else will move.

    Personally, I think there need to realistically be three things, in proper order

    1. A place people like to live
    2. Universities
    3. Military and research installations

    These three conspire to attract rich people and nerds as the article states. That SUN (Stanford University Network), HP and Google are directly from Stanford, and that Oracle got it's start as a government project are quite good examples.

    --
    Make sure everyone's vote counts: Verified Voting
    1. Re:Why is Silicon Valley successful? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Given that a typical post-doc salary is in the vicinity of $50K/year, nerds are cheap. If Russia started offering $70K/year, they could be up to their ears in research scientists in no time.

      As to the rich people, some might argue that venture capitalists are to inventors what recording companies are to musicians - that there are legitimate questions as to whether the relationship is symbiotic or exploitive.

      Then again, what do I know? If I actually had life figured out, I wouldn't be a post-doc.

    2. Re:Why is Silicon Valley successful? by warGod3 · · Score: 1

      How about:
      Rich people
      Nerds
      and Universities/research facilities.

      Oh and an environment close to a place where women walk around scantily clad (i.e. a beach).

      --
      "Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet." General James Mattis
    3. Re:Why is Silicon Valley successful? by painandgreed · · Score: 1

      Personally, I think there need to realistically be three things, in proper order

      A place people like to live
      Universities
      Military and research installations

      I think you're correct, but perhaps not in the right order. Encouraging the development of high tech is harder than most cities think as they have found out. I think it was Nashville that did a lot of research into the subject. They thought they could simply lower the financial cost to high tech companies for operating in the city and they would come, but it turned out it was harder than that. Even when the companies did come, they had nobody to work for them. The simple fact was that workers decide where they want to live and move there first, and then look for a job. A certain percentage will follow the jobs, but they are not the majority. So, to get the high tech companies, you need a city that highly educated 20-somethings want to live in which includes things like a thriving night life, the Arts, etc.

      Universities are probably first in this list because they create the ideal high tech workers to begin with. They are already there, so after that, you need to form an environment they want to continue to live in. You need a nightlife, activities, and culture that such people, when looking for a place to move to, will decide to remain where they are first rather than move to San Francisco, Seattle, etc. as most have not had kids and settled down yet. Even those that have still look at their quality of life as more than pay and housing. I've had plenty of friends, with families, who when given the chance because of job offers of living decently in a metropolitan area with plenty of things to do or living like kings in a more backwater area with less things that interest them, have chosen to live decently rather than like kings.

  14. Lysenkoism makes your argument look foolish. by xmark · · Score: 5, Informative

    Specifically, I'm referring to your argument that "Science is one thing that if done right under socialism works best."

    Under capitalism, science is often bent to the needs of the patron/employer/investor.

    Under socialism, science is often bent to the political needs of the "people" as interpreted and enforced by the government.

    Neither case must necessarily lead to a poor outcome. However, it's naive to think science can be completely unfettered from the society that supports it. All forms of government and economy concentrate power into the hands of a few at the expense of the many. Those few then use that power to shape the actions of others to suit their own needs and beliefs.

    Gloss: Lysenko was the director of the Lenin All-Union Institute of Agricultural Sciences, who decreed as a matter of state ideology (among other bizarre rubbish) that desirable traits in plants were not heritable, but instead could only spread through grafts and nongenetic methods. In short, he was a Lamarckian who could ruin a scientist's career, or worse, for daring question the validity of official state science.

    Under Lysenko, agricultural science in the USSR was, from the late 1920s until 1964, based on ideology rather than the scientific method, and this led to uncounted misery for Soviet citizens due to massively underperforming or failed crops.

    Wikipedia has a decent article about it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysenkoism

    1. Re:Lysenkoism makes your argument look foolish. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      You are conflating the flaws of the early USSR (Stalin mania) with socialism. Socialism is not what that time in the USSR was, and even the Communist Party of the SU acknowledged that the time of Stalin left a lot to be desired.

      "Anti-Communism" and McCarthy's idea of being a patriotic citizen of the USA is the other example of ideological hysteria dressed up as keeping society afloat.

    2. Re:Lysenkoism makes your argument look foolish. by Trepidity · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Has anyone written about why agriculture was so different from other areas? It seems like an interesting thing to investigate. Was it just because Lysenko was personally powerful? Or because it didn't lend itself to solid, hard-to-fudge experimentation as easily? Or did similar things happen in other areas? My impression is that in physics, math, astronomy, and chemistry, Soviet research was considered top-notch, even by the west.

    3. Re:Lysenkoism makes your argument look foolish. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      No true scotsmialism.

    4. Re:Lysenkoism makes your argument look foolish. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So what was socialism's role in supressing Lysenkoism? It was overreaching state power which suppressed it. I think you have your definitions muddled up.

      I may as well say that capitalism is responsible for the United States' gun crime. I've used my own definition of capitalism...

    5. Re:Lysenkoism makes your argument look foolish. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      Agriculture held a special place in USSR governance and economic decision making (grain yields and so on). Gorbachev was helped by his experience in agriculture, among other things, on his way to 1986.

      I forgot what I read on it, but it had to do with the USSR not producing enough grain and having to continually import it (with exceptions of course). They tried all sorts of solutions, including non-biological ones such as the farm legal structure and legality of growing crops for private sale. This problem would last for the entirety of the USSR's existence.

    6. Re:Lysenkoism makes your argument look foolish. by Anenome · · Score: 5, Informative

      Yes, there is an answer for why communism in the farm fails.

      Read the eminent economist and commentator Thomas Sowell's book, "Knowledge and Decisions" for an explanation of why socialism/communism failed in the farms, and why the same reasons it failed there cause it to fail or be continually less efficient than capitalism in every other enterprise.

      If you think a publicly-owned anything can do better than a private organization, you have to explain how it will use coercion to do that, because public org's ability to coerce is the only difference between them. Both public and private companies are simply groups of people. People denigrate private orgs for having personal stakes in the outcome, but what turns out to be worse is the indifference of those with no stake in an enterprises outcome such as we find in communal/public organizations.

      Ultimately, what Sowell's thesis comes down to is that communal organizations face a distortion of incentive structures. If something breaks on a farm that's owned by the farmer he fixes it. If a machine breaks on a communist farm he expects someone else to fix it--he doesn't own it. He neither profits by fixing it nor loses by not fixing. Thus, the owner has incentive to do what maximizes efficiency. The communal farmer does not, and could actually be punished for trying.

      But farming doesn't have a lot of room for error. And if you're drastically inefficient enough people start starving. See China and Mao's "Great Leap Forward" (into starvation apparently) which resulted in the deaths of some 20+ million Chinese.

      --
      "I Don't Have Enough Faith to be an Atheist"
    7. Re:Lysenkoism makes your argument look foolish. by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      Is it so different? I'd figure if you have bureaucrats wielding power they can influence pretty much anything.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    8. Re:Lysenkoism makes your argument look foolish. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      ... even the Communist Party of the SU acknowledged that the time of Stalin left a lot to be desired.

      Not while he was alive of course, unless they had some sort of death wish.

    9. Re:Lysenkoism makes your argument look foolish. by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      If you think a publicly-owned anything can do better than a private organization, you have to explain how it will use coercion to do that, because public org's ability to coerce is the only difference between them.

      How it goes about is a separate issue from whether or not it can. But I'll play along anyway - 1) it can commandeer land that's lying idle, and 2) it can compel workers to labor on it.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    10. Re:Lysenkoism makes your argument look foolish. by clarkkent09 · · Score: 1

      If there is a need for products of that land that means that there is a market for it and therefore there is a need for workers to labor on it so it won't be lying idle for long. This will be done a lot more efficiently the land is privately owned and the owner stands to gain or lose his own money.

      --
      Negative moral value of force outweighs the positive value of good intentions.
    11. Re:Lysenkoism makes your argument look foolish. by davaguco · · Score: 1

      The Great Leap Forward famine had a lot more to do with other things, apart from inefficiency. Specifically to very bad government policy and agricultural science: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Chinese_Famine

      --
      Please google and research "peak oil" a bit. You will discover this crisis is a lot worse than they have told you
    12. Re:Lysenkoism makes your argument look foolish. by Daniel+Dvorkin · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Agricultural research != farming. GPP was talking about the former, and you jumped in with a rant about the latter ... or rather, used the latter as an excuse for an ideological threadjack. Nice move. It's too bad in a way that the Soviet Union isn't around any more, because people like you were highly employable there.

      --
      The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
    13. Re:Lysenkoism makes your argument look foolish. by Trepidity · · Score: 1

      Yeah, I don't really disagree (it's hard to, really) with "Soviet forced collectivization was a mess". But it doesn't answer: why was their agricultural/bio research full of nutty stuff like Lysenkoism, while their physics/math/etc. research is pretty universally considered top-notch? It can't be something simple like "Communism is good for science" or "Communism is bad for science". It could, of course, just be luck of the draw; maybe agricultural research got unlucky with their early prominent scientists who set the tone (Lysenko), while their physics and math institutes got lucky and got good people. But I'm not sure.

    14. Re:Lysenkoism makes your argument look foolish. by mindbrane · · Score: 1

      Agriculture? What is it? How did it arise? The basis of civilization or so many often say. Forethought, planning, experimentation, settlement versus nomadic hunter gatherers, and on and on. If you subscribe to the idea that agriculture arose in the Mediterranean about 12K yrs ago then it's likely it arose because our dumb ass ancestors stumbled across Polyploidy crops. The Mediterranean then was somewhat different. It may have been a transitory ecotone. There's a theory that the Sahara Desert acted as a giant pump for humanity, drawing people in when wet, colder climates turned it into a hospitable environment, then driving them out when conditions changed and the Sahara dried out. Such a climate change could have created a ecotone in the Mediterranean region about the time polyploidy crops were discovered. I'm way out of my depth on stuff like polyploidy crops but the Biology 1A and 1B lecture series as Berkeley speak to it, in passing, in terms of the "discovery" of agriculture.

      For my purposes I define agriculture as the practised exploitation of the sort of Darwinian superfecundity or overproduction of offspring that Gould addressed in his book 'The Structure of Evolution Theory'. It suits my needs because it speaks to hunter gathers as well as what we tend to think of as agriculturalists. There's ample evidence that hunter gathers live as well or better than farmers so questions pop up as to agriculture arose. I hold to slavery for the most part. Agriculture is tied to the earth just like the slave and serfs who worked the earth. If you take this as a jumping off point it presents history, especially in light of the landed aristocracy, in terms more in keeping with the failure of socialism, at least it makes it a little more interesting.

      --
      ideopath @ play
    15. Re:Lysenkoism makes your argument look foolish. by rhakka · · Score: 3, Insightful

      ability to coerce is *not* the only difference between a private and a public organization.

      First, you disregard any ability by the people to decide anything through socialism, that is.. democracy. so while you may consider the participation of the minority "coercion", such as your paying taxes for a road system, it's not coercion without any feedback loop. so in fact to call it coercion is a bit disingenuous. You could just as easily call it "group decisionmaking". especially under a more ideal democratic system, since we're dreaming up a theoretical situation here.

      Secondly, efficiency is not the key element that is important in research. research is, almost by definition, inefficient. it requires an organization to blindly spend money to achieve an unnamed benefit. that will never happen for long under a private enterprise specifically because it is inefficient, and there will always be more efficient and sure ways to generate a return on investment than a capital-holding entity can capitalize on. examples abound in this very discussion.

      note that's research, not development. but even development is constrained by apparent market value instead of public good. So, for example, drugs to treat elective illnesses experienced by the rich receive preferential attention from for-profit drug manufacturers (Viagra, hair loss) instead of actual cures for illnesses that may be much more severe but either less widespread or primarily among poor populations. "Inefficient" development could and does still yield better outcomes for public good.

      The free market caters to money, not people. "Efficiency" is simply code for "best financial return". But those two concepts are not truly synonymous, and in research, it's not a core value. It's not even a particularly important one. If you want to figure out how to make the Widget X that everyone needs, the free market is good for that IF there is a return on investment in financial terms.

      what's good for capital is not always what is best for people. especially when fewer and fewer people hold more and more of the capital, as has been the progression here in america, at least, for the last 50 years.

    16. Re:Lysenkoism makes your argument look foolish. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      McCarthyism occurred during "that time", so wouldn't your claim make his reaction to the Soviet presence be legitimate?

    17. Re:Lysenkoism makes your argument look foolish. by blanck · · Score: 2, Informative

      USSR not producing enough grain and having to continually import it (with exceptions of course).

      While there were certainly droughts and other organic factors that affected output, the main reason for lack of grain in the 1930s was Stalin's forceful drive to convert the USSR from a primarily agricultural economy to an industrial one. Through collectivization, grain was gathered from the peasantry and traded abroad for heavy industry. This led to an industrial boom in the cities, at the immense cost of mass starvation in the countryside. Ukraine was a notable victim of this process.

    18. Re:Lysenkoism makes your argument look foolish. by tomrud · · Score: 1

      It seems that even physics was heading the same way. After WWII they were about to have a conference similar to the ones they had in biology. A few days before the conference was about to start, Beria reminded Stalin that the physicists were the ones who could could Soviet Union an Atomic Bomb.

      Read more about it in the book Misguided Weapons: http://www.amazon.com/Misguided-Weapons-Technological-Surprise-Battlefield/dp/1574885286

      --
      For a nice date: Call strftime(3C)!
    19. Re:Lysenkoism makes your argument look foolish. by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      Not at all. If the land is owned by aristocrats who have so much money they don't really care about getting any more it might not be worth their bother. Or they keep it wild for hunting, or to force up rents on other land.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    20. Re:Lysenkoism makes your argument look foolish. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Assuming the market is large enough or has enough of a profit margin - basically if there's not enough starving people with money, its not worth private enterprise picking it up. Public organisations don't require such an incentive, they're simply doing it because it is required.

      See what many on here don't realise is that some of us do have a sense of duty. While you and your colleagues may derive your work ethic from the fact that you're being paid, some of us derive ours from the social effect of our jobs. Meaning we have a much greater incentive than money could ever provide.

    21. Re:Lysenkoism makes your argument look foolish. by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      See, now you are comparing another economic system to capitalism. Aristocrats exist as part of a fuedal economy not a capitalist one. The whole of your example indicates that you are thinking of a fuedal economy (force up rents on other lands). Although this does point out why property tax is important to maintaining a capitalist economy (something I had never thought about before).

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    22. Re:Lysenkoism makes your argument look foolish. by imakemusic · · Score: 1

      THIS IS MY DEFINITION OF CAPITALISM.

      (here are some lower case letters to bypass Slashdot's anti-capitalism filter)

      --
      Brain surgery - it's not rocket science!
    23. Re:Lysenkoism makes your argument look foolish. by khallow · · Score: 1

      Secondly, efficiency is not the key element that is important in research. research is, almost by definition, inefficient. it requires an organization to blindly spend money to achieve an unnamed benefit. that will never happen for long under a private enterprise specifically because it is inefficient, and there will always be more efficient and sure ways to generate a return on investment than a capital-holding entity can capitalize on. examples abound in this very discussion.

      This summarizes what I see as the flaws in your argument. The key element of research, like many nearly pure economic activities, is return on investment. It is not a "blind" gamble. It does not yield an "unnamed" benefit (at the least, the output is named "research", "science", "knowledge", "progress", etc). There are plenty of private organizations that do some pretty abstract research, for example, SETI Institute or the Santa Fe Institute. Most colleges are private and lists of the top R&D schools tend to be dominated by private institutions.

      To be blunt, the only reason R&D in the US is still productive to any extent is because, despite government funding, there are still incentives for scientists to generate useful science. It can mean significant fame, increase in status, and monetary rewards for coming up with research of genuine benefit to society.

      The free market caters to money, not people. "Efficiency" is simply code for "best financial return". But those two concepts are not truly synonymous, and in research, it's not a core value. It's not even a particularly important one. If you want to figure out how to make the Widget X that everyone needs, the free market is good for that IF there is a return on investment in financial terms.

      The free market caters to trade, not money or people. "Efficiency" is simply code for low cost transactions.

      what's good for capital is not always what is best for people. especially when fewer and fewer people hold more and more of the capital, as has been the progression here in america, at least, for the last 50 years.

      This is just a outcome of policies such as those you espouse. The money for public funding of R&D has to come from somewhere. It comes from the people who don't know how to evade tax liability. That class of people doesn't include most of the rich. That leads to a natural dynamic for exaggerating income and capital disparities.

    24. Re:Lysenkoism makes your argument look foolish. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Which happens to be the system that was in place in Russia before it went communist, so it's hardly invalid or irrelevant.

    25. Re:Lysenkoism makes your argument look foolish. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Point taken, but there has to be a point where you break from 'this is X, done poorly' and 'this in cynically manipulated to look like X, but in reality is nothing of the sort'.

    26. Re:Lysenkoism makes your argument look foolish. by TerranFury · · Score: 1

      Russia, and Eastern Europe more generally, still produce many top-notch mathematicians (two thirds of the theorems I study are named after Russians) and programmers (just look at the Google code contest finalist lists). I wonder if there's simply a cultural component, and that they simply hold those who do abstract thinking in higher esteem.

    27. Re:Lysenkoism makes your argument look foolish. by khallow · · Score: 1

      First, you disregard any ability by the people to decide anything through socialism, that is.. democracy. so while you may consider the participation of the minority "coercion", such as your paying taxes for a road system, it's not coercion without any feedback loop. so in fact to call it coercion is a bit disingenuous. You could just as easily call it "group decisionmaking". especially under a more ideal democratic system, since we're dreaming up a theoretical situation here.

      Come to think of it, a private organization can do democracy too. That's usually how professional societies are run, for example. Government is not unique (and many governments are not democracies!) in this respect. And yes, government force is coercion. I consider it rather disingenuous to claim otherwise just because there is a small degree of control through elections.

    28. Re:Lysenkoism makes your argument look foolish. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you think a publicly-owned anything can do better than a private organization, you have to explain how it will use coercion to do that

      Only in terms of means. In terms of *end-goal* and motivation, public is easier to handle.

      A private system of interstate highways would probably make a hell of a lot more money than our public system does, but "make money" isn't the goal. Producing a consistent and cheap set of highways is.

    29. Re:Lysenkoism makes your argument look foolish. by rhakka · · Score: 1

      there may be "some" return on investment, but it's totally unpredictable and may not even be in a field a given org is able to capitalize on. "pure" research is not focused on any economic benefit. it just continues, on faith that it will generate some return somewhere for someone. The free sharing of research, for example, not in the best interest of a corporation... unless it's someone else's research. It is, however, in the best interest of society at large.

      I put forth there is ALWAYS some other investment beyond pure research that will generate more sure returns for corporations.

      As for schools and SETI, that's interesting. Schools receive extremely significant funding and grants from the government in order to do the research they do, even if they are private organizations they are not relying on private FUNDING for that. Private funding for schools is usually tied either to specific funds for specific research programs by companies looking for returns on investment (which means research restricted only to projects likely to return an economic benefit to the funder) or endowments by tribalistic wealthy alumni.

      SETI exists since public funding was cut off, only because it attracted the attention and devotion of similarly wealthy patrons. Notice a pattern there yet?

      Call me crazy, but I'm not so psyched about research depending on the whims of those who happen to have lots of money. I would rather have the really smart people studying this stuff deciding what might be worthy of investigation, frankly. but unless it generates dollars, that can never happen in a purely free market model.

      that's why I like what we have. The free market does what it does so well, and public funding can do other stuff. I only wish we had more public funding for public good research not being serviced by economic engines currently. and less funding for, say, war.

      Evading tax liability still does not make the poor pay most of the taxes and tax savings did not propel the compensation differential between average and CEO from 30x to 300x over the last 60 years. I think that, just maybe, your analysis is a bit flawed on that point.

    30. Re:Lysenkoism makes your argument look foolish. by drsquare · · Score: 1

      Ultimately, what Sowell's thesis comes down to is that communal organizations face a distortion of incentive structures. If something breaks on a farm that's owned by the farmer he fixes it. If a machine breaks on a communist farm he expects someone else to fix it--he doesn't own it. He neither profits by fixing it nor loses by not fixing.

      Does that not also apply to employees in private organisations? If a machine breaks in a company owned by the worker, he fixes it. If the farm is owned by a hedge fund, he has no incentive to fix it. By your own logic, socialism is the better option. The farmer with a direct stake in his farm will run it better than a farmer who's merely an employee.

      In fact, Russian agriculture prospered after the land was taken away from the capitalist land-owners and handed over the people who worked it. Despite little arable land, socialism turned Russia into a successful agricultural exporter.

    31. Re:Lysenkoism makes your argument look foolish. by khallow · · Score: 1

      there may be "some" return on investment, but it's totally unpredictable and may not even be in a field a given org is able to capitalize on. "pure" research is not focused on any economic benefit. it just continues, on faith that it will generate some return somewhere for someone. The free sharing of research, for example, not in the best interest of a corporation... unless it's someone else's research. It is, however, in the best interest of society at large.

      I see a simple rebuttal. Why do you have this "faith"? Either the belief is based on evidence or it is not. If it is based on evidence, then the return on investment has been demonstrated, even if you choose to ignore it. If it is not based on evidence, then it is not a scientific belief and has no place in determining the allocation of resources for scientific work.

    32. Re:Lysenkoism makes your argument look foolish. by clarkkent09 · · Score: 1

      See what many on here don't realise is that some of us do have a sense of duty. While you and your colleagues may derive your work ethic from the fact that you're being paid, some of us derive ours from the social effect of our jobs. Meaning we have a much greater incentive than money could ever provide.

      If you consider helping others to be of higher value to you than helping yourself and your family than you go right ahead, I don't have any problem with it. If you think it is everybody's moral duty to help others first, then I do have a problem with that. Let me phrase it as a question, actually a quote Ayn Rand:

      Why is it moral to serve the happiness of others, but not your own? If enjoyment is a value, why is it moral when experienced by others, but immoral when experienced by you? If the sensation of eating a cake is a value, why is it an immoral indulgence in your stomach, but a moral goal for you to achieve in the stomach of others? Why is it immoral for you to desire, but moral for others to do so? Why is it immoral to produce a value and keep it, but moral to give it away? And if it is not moral for you to keep a value, why is it moral for others to accept it? If you are selfless and virtuous when you give it, are they not selfish and vicious when they take it? Does virtue consist of serving vice? Is the moral purpose of those who are good, self-immolation for the sake of those who are evil?

      The answer you evade, the monstrous answer is: No, the takers are not evil, provided they did not earn the value you gave them. It is not immoral for them to accept it, provided they are unable to produce it, unable to deserve it, unable to give you any value in return. It is not immoral for them to enjoy it, provided they do not obtain it by right.

      Such is the secret core of your creed, the other half of your double standard: it is immoral to live by your own effort, but moral to live by the effort of others--it is immoral to consume your own product, but moral to consume the products of others--it is immoral to earn, but moral to mooch--it is the parasites who are the moral justification for the existence of the producers, but the existence of the parasites is an end in itself--it is evil to profit by achievement, but good to profit by sacrifice--it is evil to create your own happiness, but good to enjoy it at the price of the blood of others.

      --
      Negative moral value of force outweighs the positive value of good intentions.
    33. Re:Lysenkoism makes your argument look foolish. by tftp · · Score: 1

      In fact, Russian agriculture prospered after the land was taken away from the capitalist land-owners and handed over the people who worked it.

      More precisely, the land was taken from individual owners and given to a committee. Tragedy of commons followed immediately. Who would work 50% better than other people if all your hard labor will be diluted among hundreds of slackers? Most likely your efforts will be either ignored or ridiculed; if your neighbor sees you working hard he can slow down and smoke. Farms went into decline, and workers saw themselves just as employees of some abstract "management". Things were so bad that local workers didn't even want to do some work, but thanks to government owning everything and everyone, they arranged for engineers from the city to be taken away from their drafting boards and workbenches, against their will loaded into buses and driven into some huge potato field, where those engineers were told to go and gather potatoes.

    34. Re:Lysenkoism makes your argument look foolish. by rhakka · · Score: 1

      return on investment has been demonstrated. the question is, *return for who*?

      in a free market model, it has to be a return for the person or institution putting up the money. Unless a corporation is defined as broadly as government, that is a major restriction on research.

      That is, government can research anything that might benefit society. A company can only research what might benefit the company, and it will focus on that which has more *economic* benefit than anything else. That may not be the right choice for all of us... it's just what's right for the company.

    35. Re:Lysenkoism makes your argument look foolish. by rhakka · · Score: 1

      then I'm extremely comfortable with a level of coercion, just as I am comfortable with coercion to support police, fire departments, roads, infrastructure, and a myraid number of other government institutions that are far better than free market alternatives could ever be. note that is not "perfect", it's just "better than free market". But that level of coercion is hardly on the same level as autocratic dictums (like Lysenkoism) which stand no chance of responding to the will of the people short of violently. So perhaps different levels of coercion should be acknowledged. Some level is necessary to the function of a society, of course.

      elections are actually a fair amount of control, if the coercion is overreaching. Oddly though, while people bitch a lot, they do seem to like not having entire cities burn to the ground because of things like building codes and public firefighters. Perhaps that is why the "free market of political ideas" has not changed this. And perhaps your definition of "coercion" is a tad extreme.

    36. Re:Lysenkoism makes your argument look foolish. by khallow · · Score: 1

      in a free market model, it has to be a return for the person or institution putting up the money. Unless a corporation is defined as broadly as government, that is a major restriction on research.

      You assume here that the resulting knowledge cannot be sold or licensed to someone else. The entity can always sell it to a party which can take advantage of the research.

      That is, government can research anything that might benefit society. A company can only research what might benefit the company, and it will focus on that which has more *economic* benefit than anything else. That may not be the right choice for all of us... it's just what's right for the company.

      Why would the government focus on what is best for us? It has even less reason than the company does. At least the research that the company comes up with will be of use to society because it either allows the company to lower the cost of its current goods and services, namely to provide something valuable to part of society for a cheaper price, or it allows the company to provide new goods or services, this time an opportunity to provide something new of value to society. Government doesn't have to provide anything of value for the money consumed. I don't see that government funded research is the "right choice" at all.

    37. Re:Lysenkoism makes your argument look foolish. by khallow · · Score: 1

      then I'm extremely comfortable with a level of coercion, just as I am comfortable with coercion to support police, fire departments, roads, infrastructure, and a myraid number of other government institutions that are far better than free market alternatives could ever be.

      Are you quoting from some religious text here? "Better than free market alternatives" means, as far as I can tell, that something is compatible with your belief system, not that it's better in some measurable way. I certainly would not consider publicly funded research to be superior either in quality or relevance to privately funded research. My take is that the serious part of government-funded research is just subsidized business research that would have happened anyway, but now Uncle Sam gets to pay for it instead - socialize the risk, privatize the profit. And the not-so-serious part is a large money sink for funds that would have been better off in the hands of the taxpayer.

    38. Re:Lysenkoism makes your argument look foolish. by Anenome · · Score: 1

      "Does that not also apply to employees in private organisations? If a machine breaks in a company owned by the worker, he fixes it. If the farm is owned by a hedge fund, he has no incentive to fix it. By your own logic, socialism is the better option. The farmer with a direct stake in his farm will run it better than a farmer who's merely an employee."

      - The difference is, the decision makers in the organization--the executives--have a direct interest in the outcome of the business.

      That is to say that the incentive structure is direct. Failure results in executives being removed from pay and position. Success means both reputation increase and financial reward.

      Employees don't have a ton of incentive, true, they've traded share in success or failure for stability.

      But the situation is far worse in a government run corporation. When you have politicians in the executive position you have people who've been elected or appointed there and whom do not share in the success or failure of the enterprise. They simply don't care either way, because success or failure has no impact on them.

      For reference, might I suggest the fate of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, both QUANGOs.

      --
      "I Don't Have Enough Faith to be an Atheist"
    39. Re:Lysenkoism makes your argument look foolish. by rhakka · · Score: 1

      public fire departments and building codes have demonstrably better track records than private fire departments did. Public police certainly beat mercenary security forces. Road and infrastructure.. no brainer, really, unless you're a wild idealogue.

      back to research though, you're right that the major risk is private enterprise offloading the cost of research on to the taxpayer for for-profit research. But as long as the results of that research are not patented, the damage is limited and it would actually foster greater competition using the results of that research which is a net win for consumers. If the value of the research is high enough, the private enterprise will do it on its own. Hey, imagine that.

      your whole question of "relevance" is the point I was referring to. Research doesn't know what is relevant. If only "relevant" research is done, that's the limiting factor of private research I am objecting to. Only that which rich people or profit enterprise thinks is "relevant" gets studied. I would rather have a venue for experts in a field to determine research directions. That means funding must exist outside of profit motives, and outside the whims of a few super wealthy.

    40. Re:Lysenkoism makes your argument look foolish. by khallow · · Score: 1

      public fire departments and building codes have demonstrably better track records than private fire departments did. Public police certainly beat mercenary security forces. Road and infrastructure.. no brainer, really, unless you're a wild idealogue.

      So a public fast food restaurant would be better than the private analogue? Public book publishers better than private? In other words, if government is so good at everything, then why doesn't it do everything? The answer is that government is not great at everything. There are two things to note about the above stuff. First, it is very concrete. It's real easy to determine when the police or fire departments are working correctly because their jobs are very visible. Roads and "infrastructure"? Well, too many potholes and the public notices (even if government still doesn't do anything about it). Second, it is highly subsidized and often has unusual powers that a private business could not get. It would be insane for a private business to attempt to compete heads up with a police department because the police can afford to operate at a vastly unprofitable state. Further, police have special powers that a private business would never get except in an extremely dire situation (like complete breakdown of society).

      your whole question of "relevance" is the point I was referring to. Research doesn't know what is relevant. If only "relevant" research is done, that's the limiting factor of private research I am objecting to. Only that which rich people or profit enterprise thinks is "relevant" gets studied. I would rather have a venue for experts in a field to determine research directions. That means funding must exist outside of profit motives, and outside the whims of a few super wealthy.

      Point out research that was important later, but was irrelevant at the time it was done. My belief is that you aren't likely to find anything.

    41. Re:Lysenkoism makes your argument look foolish. by rhakka · · Score: 1

      government has more engagement with a wider slice of the populace than any company does, that's why. poor people can still vote you out of office. they can't afford many products and services, however.

      once again... the whole point of research is you don't know what value will be produced, how fast it will be produced or who it will benefit. You just know that it will be something, at some speed, that will benefit someone. I will repeat - again - that there is always a more sure return somewhere else in private industry. why would any company engage in such risky propositions when they have dozens of other avenues with much more sure results? it would be stupid, if profit were your only goal, as it is for business of this size.

      but that is not the only goal that should interest us as a people.

    42. Re:Lysenkoism makes your argument look foolish. by rhakka · · Score: 1

      I didn't say government was better at everything, just a lot of things. Lots of things don't get better when profit is a main driver. Research.. pure research, not development... is one of them.

      Your stance is seriously that no research has ever been discovered to be more important than originally thought after the fact? How about the first 50 years of DNA research? Chaos theory research and its contributions to game theory? Nearly all of astronomy outside of basic navigation for the last ten thousand years?

    43. Re:Lysenkoism makes your argument look foolish. by khallow · · Score: 1

      Your stance is seriously that no research has ever been discovered to be more important than originally thought after the fact?

      No, though I realize that is my fault as a communicator. I mean that no research has ever been done which was useless at the time it was done, but very useful later at some distant time (that is, over a reasonable investment horizon for a business). You can always find some near future need which eventually useful research could address.

      For example, research into electricity and magnetism is commonly considered of this form. Nobody expected an electrically powered society or computers. However, even in its earliest days there were near future applications. The key early one, which turned out to be mostly mistaken, was to apply it to human health (though defibrillation machines and electroshock therapy would be some of the eventual consequences of that research). Lightning rods appear to me to be the first truly useful application. By that time they had also discovered electric motors and Leyden jars (a primitive capacitor and means for storing electrical energy). In the UK, the need for better navigation drove a lot of this research since magnetic compasses were a crucial element of determining a ship's orientation at sea.

      It's interesting to delve into the history of why people researched electricity. Even by the late 18th Century, they had a vague idea of what was to come. They knew electricity could be generated, stored, transferred great distances, and used to perform work. Later, the relationship of electricity to chemistry was discovered with the invention of the battery. Since chemistry was closely related to important things such as military power and human health, that helped boost the profile of EM research. The development of viable steam engines for factories provided a massive incentive to develop similar electric machines, especially since the latter ended up more efficient, even in the short run, and electricity turned out to be less effort to transport great distances than wood or coal.

      The point is that at every step of the way, there was some reason, often mistaken, to continue to investigate electricity and magnetism. It is obvious that most of the time, these investigators had little clue what future uses their research would be put to, but they always had something to try for. Further, it was rather clear over a span of time, if someone was scientifically productive or not. Early on, you didn't even have to evaluate them, they'd do this stuff on their own!

      Personally, I think it's a terrible idea to assume that science is something that just happens when you give money to eggheads. As the above example provides, there were near future needs that drove the research and which would have provided measures for determining whether the money devoted to the research was well spent or not.

    44. Re:Lysenkoism makes your argument look foolish. by khallow · · Score: 1

      government has more engagement with a wider slice of the populace than any company does, that's why. poor people can still vote you out of office. they can't afford many products and services, however.

      And why would that make government better? My take is that instead it results in the manifestation of many focused "special interests" sated at the expense of the general benefit.

      once again... the whole point of research is you don't know what value will be produced, how fast it will be produced or who it will benefit.

      As I point out in my other reply, you don't know the full implications of your research, but good research has some near future value that you can measure.

      I will repeat - again - that there is always a more sure return somewhere else in private industry. why would any company engage in such risky propositions when they have dozens of other avenues with much more sure results?

      Your premise starts wrong. Because there is the possibility of huge return on investment that can't be had merely by following the same dozens of avenues that everyone else follows. Sure returns correlate with low return on investment. Scientific research has a very high risk premium to go with the risk.

  15. Silicon Valley WASNT planned by antifoidulus · · Score: 1

    it actually grew in a much more organic fashion and a big part of it was how the culture attracted the people, not how the people attracted the culture. Having a government "plan" a silicon valley is like trying to cook by throwing all the ingredients in a pot, turning on the heat and hoping for the best.

    1. Re:Silicon Valley WASNT planned by anarche · · Score: 1

      I guess you don't like soup?

      --
      Wait! Whats a sig?
    2. Re:Silicon Valley WASNT planned by qc_dk · · Score: 1

      Having a government "plan" a silicon valley is like trying to cook by throwing all the ingredients in a pot, turning on the heat and hoping for the best.

      Which after all is a proposition with better chances of succeeding than just standing in the kitchen staring at the ingredients.
      (also it worked for the Manhattan project, CERN etc.)

  16. News flash by MK_CSGuy · · Score: 1

    Russia isn't really socialist anymore.
    The SU collapsed and the new Russia is ad capitalistic as it's euro neighbors.

    1. Re:News flash by eugene2k · · Score: 1

      The reality is that russian government is still able to create government corporations and government monopolies and does that very frequently. It also invests money into "private" companies. Basically Russia now is 50% capitalistic and 50% socialistic.

      --
      Apple has "Mac vs PC", Microsoft has "Laptop Hunters", Linux has recession
    2. Re:News flash by Ogi_UnixNut · · Score: 1

      So like most of Europe then? Or do you think the rest of Europe has no such situations where government invest or own companies, even local monopolies?

    3. Re:News flash by Glonoinha · · Score: 1

      It also invests money into "private" companies as a way to funnel public money into the hands of corrupt connected individuals.

      FTFY

      --
      Glonoinha the MebiByte Slayer
  17. I ask you... by deathtopaulw · · Score: 5, Funny

    Is a man not entitled to the sweat of his brow?
    "NO" Says the man in Washington, "It belongs to the poor."
    "NO" Says the man in the Vatican, "It belongs to God."
    "NO" Says the man in Moscow, "It belongs to everyone."

    I rejected those answers. Instead, I chose something different. I chose the impossible. I chose...

    Rapture!

    1. Re:I ask you... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Troll? What kind of a sad boring idiot are you to have never played bioshock? How can you not see the hilarious similarity?

    2. Re:I ask you... by elrous0 · · Score: 1

      Ask the libertarian if he will house a prisoner, and he will say "NO!"
      Ask the libertarian if he will repair his road, and he will say "NO!"
      Ask the libertarian if he will give up his medicare, and he will say "NO!"
      Ask the libertarian if he would abolish government, and he will say "YES!"

      --
      SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    3. Re:I ask you... by Shotgun · · Score: 1

      Ask the libertarian if he will house a prisoner, and he will say "NO!"

      Of course he will say no. Building prisons is a valid function of the government, necessary to insure individual freedom. Why would the libertarian house the prisoner?

      Ask the libertarian if he will repair his road, and he will say "NO!"

      Again, building roads is a valid function of government. It requires exercising the power of imminent domain, which should only be given to a duly elected government.

      Ask the libertarian if he will give up his medicare, and he will say "NO!"

      Bullshit. You can have the medicare, the social security and all of the other nanny state programs. All I ask is that you stop forcefully taking 1/3rd of my working life to pay for them.

      Ask the libertarian if he would abolish government, and he will say "YES!"

      Not an intelligent one. Government is the grease that allows the machinery of society to operate. A machine will not run long without proper lubrication, but never be confused that the lubrication makes the machine run faster or more precisely. To much oil in the engine will destroy it. Not enough oil in the engine will destroy it. The wrong kind of oil in the engine will destroy it.

      Before you go mouthing about libertarians, you might want to learn a little about them. You can't do that by watching Rachel Maddow.

      --
      Aah, change is good. -- Rafiki
      Yeah, but it ain't easy. -- Simba
  18. The Charm School for Russian nerds? by AHuxley · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The Charm School was a 1988 thriller novel by Nelson DeMille.
    A training facility was set up in Russian so spies could be trained to infiltrate American society by living in a fake US town.
    Could copying/dreaming about/improving US communications, US biomedicine, Russian space hardware, Russian nuclear power, and EU/Asian energy conservation really geek up young Russians?
    Surly a picture of Putin with Alexander Lebed above the communal lab and the hint that Moscow U/city papers could be
    canceled if grades drop would be enough to motivate any young Russian.
    If your really really good, no Obama style City Year near Mayak for you :)
    Geeks and nerds like the free range freedoms of the USA not gilded gulags.
    Learn from China and send them to the USA and get them educated for free, then as they get homesick debrief them.

    --
    Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
    1. Re:The Charm School for Russian nerds? by qc_dk · · Score: 2, Funny

      Geeks and nerds like the free range freedoms of the USA not gilded gulags.

      I think you've been misled/brainwashed by US propaganda. Geeks and nerds love the gilded gulag of their mom's basement.

    2. Re:The Charm School for Russian nerds? by TerranFury · · Score: 1

      Geeks and nerds like the free range freedoms of the USA not gilded gulags.

      Then why do they go to grad school? Hell, it would seem that this is precisely running away from capitalism. Why do they accept small government-funded stipends instead of better salaries in industry?

    3. Re:The Charm School for Russian nerds? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The Charm School was a 1988 thriller novel by Nelson DeMille.

      A training facility was set up in Russian so spies could be trained to infiltrate American society by living in a fake US town.

      Could copying/dreaming about/improving US communications, US biomedicine, Russian space hardware, Russian nuclear power, and EU/Asian energy conservation really geek up young Russians?

      Surly a picture of Putin with Alexander Lebed above the communal lab and the hint that Moscow U/city papers could be
      canceled if grades drop would be enough to motivate any young Russian.

      If your really really good, no Obama style City Year near Mayak for you :)

      Geeks and nerds like the free range freedoms of the USA not gilded gulags.

      Learn from China and send them to the USA and get them educated for free, then as they get homesick debrief them.

      I think a surly picture would have the opposite effect. A smiling, or merely neutral one would do better. On a related topic, perhaps a surly picture of Stalin and Beria (hey, why not go for the gold?) would scare most students into learning the importance of grammar? I only wish Slashdot had a policy of canceling one's "papers" if "YOUR really really" illiterate.

  19. Corruption by PrinceAshitaka · · Score: 1

    I wonder what serious western businesses will want to invest in such a corrupt country. Most major international businesses work in Russia, but only because the market there is so large and untapped. These large international businesses are just there though with sales departments.
    >br> A translator who works with westerners in Moscow once told me the way to tell if a foreign company in Russia is paying bride to distributors ect., is to look if they are making a profit. If they are, then they are paying bribes to someone. It is possible to have a business in Russia and not make bribes, but not to have a business in Russia, not pay bribes and make a profit.
    >br> TO conclude, as long as this business culture there continues as such, Western companies will only invest in Sales departments in Russia, and not any further. There are cheaper alternatives in the east for non-western scientific investment.

    --
    quis custodiet ipsos custodes
    1. Re:Corruption by Nighttime · · Score: 0, Troll

      I wonder what serious western businesses will want to invest in such a corrupt country.

      Why not, they invest in the US, don't they?

      --
      I've got a fever and the only prescription is more COBOL.
    2. Re:Corruption by elrous0 · · Score: 1

      Trying to get anything built in New York or Boston involves bribes and corruption too (probably quite a few other cities too), but companies still build there.

      --
      SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
  20. Do not forget HP lesson by ctrl-alt-canc · · Score: 1

    Science incubators and technology districts are usually the buzzwords evocated by politicians and real-estate investors. Hewlett and Packard years ago demonstrated that, to start a succesful company, everything you need are a bright idea and a garage. I still have to meet a politicians with 1/1000 of the genius of these guys.

    1. Re:Do not forget HP lesson by Sulphur · · Score: 1

      The story is that even the Generals respected David Packard when he was in Government. It was as if $300,000,000 was printed on his forehead.

      --

      Cowboys by a creek in Wyoming: Do you see that log in the creek? Yes.
      Do you know that there are ten thousand ants on it, and that everyone of them thinks that he is steering it?

  21. Newsflash by dangitman · · Score: 1

    Dear former Soviet Socialists,

    It doesn't work like that. You don't plan things like Silicon Valley, they are just things that happen. Silicon Valley itself is something that nobody should deliberately emulate. The fact that it is the home of many successful tech companies is simply a bizarre freak of nature. Otherwise, it's just a strange congested-but-also-not-dense piece of land. There's nothing inherently technological or successful about it. It's just a patch of land that's not really in the mountains and not quite on the coast either, that's not quite industrial and not quite residential.

    Regards,

    People who have been to Silicon Valley

    --
    ... and then they built the supercollider.
    1. Re:Newsflash by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The fact that it is the home of many successful tech companies is simply a bizarre freak of nature.

      Absolultely not. It's in an area near a host of good universities that pump out technically qualified graduate, and it's near SF, which is the closest thing the west coast has to a finance center. It also has a decent amount of (in the beginning) affordable real estate that was important for startups.

      Investors + Smart People + (relatively) Affordable Land. That would be my formula. Also, being a pretty nice place where people actually want to live ain't bad either.

  22. For energy, it might work. by Animats · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It's not a silly idea. Russia is positioning itself as an "energy power", and energy projects need heavy industrial infrastructure. The USSR was good at that.

    Fusion would be a good goal. Or thorium reactors. That's a problem that may yield to organized, determined effort and money. The USSR still has a big nuclear program, and resources to draw upon.

    1. Re:For energy, it might work. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's not a silly idea. Russia is positioning itself as an "energy power", and energy projects need heavy industrial infrastructure. The USSR was good at that.

      Fusion would be a good goal. Or thorium reactors. That's a problem that may yield to organized, determined effort and money. The USSR still has a big nuclear program, and resources to draw upon.

      The problem is that established respectable research centers in this field (Novosibirsk, Arzamas) have nothing to do with new "Silicon Valley".

  23. Russian high-tech is hindered not by lack of money by S3D · · Score: 2, Insightful

    or place to sit. It's hindered by widespread corruption and still quite criminalized economy. Tax breaks will be used for tax evasion by unrelated businesses and grants will be stolen by corrupted officials. Right now high-tech, which is by its nature quite transparent and vulnerable for extortion can not compete with different shady and semi-shady businesses. The way to grow hi-tech in Russia is not to pour money into it, but clean corruption from the government, especially local authorities. Do it and high-tech will flourish without any outside interventions.

  24. "Cupertino-2" is no joke by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "2pertino", on the other hand ...

    Or maybe "Cuper2no" ...

    You can't duplicate geek culture if you haven't mastered the pun.

  25. In Sovet Russia... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...science city models YOU!!!!

    1. Re:In Sovet Russia... by Sulphur · · Score: 1

      Dupes store you.

      --

      We have cities named for Russian cities like Moscow, Odessa. How has that worked?

  26. Didn't the EU try recently something like this? by Froeschle · · Score: 1

    I don't have time to look for the Slashdot article, but I think there was a similar story a few years ago about the EU attempting to create an "elite" university to complete with US schools such as Harvard and Yale. When will they ever learn that you cannot just one day decide to create these things from scratch? There are many factors that must first be present in order to allow them to come into existence then become what they are on their own merit. Where do the Europeans and Russians get these ideas from?

  27. Graham also thinks it might be possible... by dido · · Score: 2, Informative

    Paul Graham also writes that it might actually be possible to buy a Silicon Valley, or something very close to it, by investing a billion dollars or so in a city with the right environment that will be conducive to the growth of startups. Perhaps someone in Russia read Graham's article and decided that they had the kind of political will (which Graham says is so unlikely) to pull it off.

    --
    Qu'on me donne six lignes écrites de la main du plus honnête homme, j'y trouverai de quoi le faire pendre.
  28. What goes around comes around by Hognoxious · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    When you sign a non-aggression pact with a one-balled megalomaniac and proceed to carve up smaller countries, don't be surprised it comes round and bites you in the ass.

    --
    Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    1. Re:What goes around comes around by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      You think that, were the pact in question not signed, the war wouldn't have happened, or wouldn't have involved the USSR to the same extent?

    2. Re:What goes around comes around by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      The two front problem (or how to avoid it) has always been at the heart of German strategy, even before Germany existed. Would you strike West towards France if you hadn't made darn sure the East was secure - at least for the meantime?

      P.S. Whoever modded my previous post as flamebait is an absolute nonce.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    3. Re:What goes around comes around by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      The two front problem (or how to avoid it) has always been at the heart of German strategy, even before Germany existed. Would you strike West towards France if you hadn't made darn sure the East was secure - at least for the meantime?

      Before the pact, Germany had Poland on its East, and Poland wouldn't let Soviet troops on its territory even under German attack (if you recall, Stalin actually asked, though his reasons are debatable). So Germans didn't need the pact to secure the East.

    4. Re:What goes around comes around by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      The Molotov-Ribbentrop pact was actually plan B for the Soviets. Plan A was to ally with France and Britain, and it didn't go at all well. The British representative at the important negotiations didn't actually have any authorization to say anything to the Soviets, until it was too late. Moreover, the proposals the West was willing to consider didn't address Soviet security needs (such as an alliance between Germany and Estonia, Latvia, or Lithuania). With no prospect of a satisfactory treaty with the West, Stalin went for a treaty with Germany that would provide him with a large buffer area and economic assistance to Germany that Stalin thought would make the Soviets too valuable to attack.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    5. Re:What goes around comes around by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      Poland wouldn't let them? You seriously think they could have stopped them?

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    6. Re:What goes around comes around by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      Poland wouldn't let them? You seriously think they could have stopped them?

      But then it wouldn't be at all different from how things turned out in reality, would it? Poland still invaded by the USSR, the latter still in war with Germany.

      I'm just not sure what you're arguing for. While USSR ended up being the "bad guy" for signing the pact, I don't see how it changed the big scheme of things in any way. In the end, it mostly just bought Soviets some reprieve, mostly to fight Finns in the north, but also to build up forces (Stalin did believe the war to be imminent, though he grossly miscalculated how long it would take Nazis to prepare for it).

      With respect to an invasion of Poland, and the consequent land grab, it's worth remembering that most of the land annexed by the USSR in that invasion was previously occupied and annexed by Poland (from Ukraine and Belarus) in Soviet-Polish war of 1920, and consisted of lands with predominantly Ukrainian and Belarusian population (here is data from another source - Polish census of 1931), with the notable exception of Biaystok. Given the treatment of the population of those territories by Poland after occupation, by your logic, it could just as well be said that "what goes around comes around" was equally applicable to Poland in that case (and, indeed, that is precisely how Soviet propaganda spinned it).

    7. Re:What goes around comes around by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      But then it wouldn't be at all different from how things turned out in reality, would it?

      France, Belgium and the Netherlands might think otherwise.

      While USSR ended up being the "bad guy" for signing the pact

      Didn't say that. Just pointing out that they weren't the "good guy" either.

      In the end, it mostly just bought Soviets some reprieve, mostly to fight Finns in the north

      Which they had no right to be doing anyway.

      I don't think you can claim the Nazis didn't gain any advantage from it. If they didn't, they wouldn't have signed it.

      by your logic, it could just as well be said that "what goes around comes around" was equally applicable to Poland in that case (and, indeed, that is precisely how Soviet propaganda spinned it).

      Poland did nothing comparable to the Katyn massacre, although you're probably the last person alive who still believes it was the Nazis.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    8. Re:What goes around comes around by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      France, Belgium and the Netherlands might think otherwise.

      Czechs and Slovakians would be disappointed that those who let them have the short end of the stick didn't get to taste it themselves, though.

      I mean, "what goes around comes around", right?

      Which they had no right to be doing anyway.

      Never claimed they had. It's just that is an altogether different story.

      I don't think you can claim the Nazis didn't gain any advantage from it. If they didn't, they wouldn't have signed it.

      The immediate advantage was, of course, the ability to steamroll over France with everything they had.

      The long-term advantage (which only became obvious later) was that they got the chance to start the war with USSR with a surprise strike, that turned up to be extremely efficient in that.

      Poland did nothing comparable to the Katyn massacre

      Sure it did, just not on the same scale. But genocide is genocide in the end, and if you kill, say, only a hundred (as opposed to thousands) people because of their ethnicity, that still counts.

      ... although you're probably the last person alive who still believes it was the Nazis.

      Where did you even get the idea that I believe Nazis and not Soviets to be responsible for Katyn? Do you divide people in two camps based on whether they agree with your points fully or not, and then ascribe all kinds of "bad" thoughts to the latter?

      In any case, I think you're missing my point here altogether. The concept of "what goes around comes around" can be stretched back practically indefinitely, or at least insofar as we have any written or oral recorded history. Soviets viewed their 1939 invasion of Poland as getting even for 1920, and getting back "what was rightly ours until they took it" (after all, it was a part of Russian Empire). Poles viewed their 1920 invasion of Ukraine and Belarus as getting even for centuries of Russian occupation, and getting back getting back "what was rightly ours until they took it" (after all, it was a part of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, and the Grand Duchy of Lithuania before that). Russia, during the partition of Poland of 1795, viewed it as getting back the originally Eastern Slavic lands (Western Ukraine & Belarus) "with interest". And so on, and so forth.

      How far back do we go? Do you want to count Polish invasions of Russia (which went as far as Moscow) during the Russian Time of Troubles in early 1600s? Or, say, the invasion of Poland by Yaroslav the Wise in 1031? Or do we go all the way back when Uugg first hit Oogg in the head with a freshly made club?

    9. Re:What goes around comes around by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      You're obviously a Soviet Union fanboi, so it's pointless arguing with you. I thought you'd all died out when the Berlin wall fell. I'm disappointed.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    10. Re:What goes around comes around by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      No, I'm not a Soviet Union "fanboi". Even though I did see only a brief glimpse of it (I was born in 1985), I saw enough and heard enough from my parents to know that it's not a place I'd want to live in. More generally, I'm not a communist, either. Nor am I a Russian nationalist (heck, I left that country, and have no intentions of ever coming back). I just prefer to stick to facts and reason rather than emotional judgement, such as yours "oh noes, the hell-breathing NKVD spawn have massacred thousands of innocent Poles in Katyn! Therefore, Russians are evil subhumans, and they deserve everything that befell them later!" (if I misunderstood your position correctly, please clarify accordingly.)

      Things happen for reasons and have motivations, and people who do them rarely do so for the sheer evilness of it. That doesn't justify them, or excuse the perpetrators, but understanding why they happened helps to avoid repeating them in the future, by other people driven by same motivations. Revenge is one of the most basic ones, and also the most powerful - "for every X the Y have killed, we'll kill ten of them!". Righting "old wrongs" is another.

      In some case, the solution can be as brutal as the problem was. Do I have to remind you of the post-WW2 expulsion of Germans from the (newly acquired, thanks to the USSR!) Polish territories - millions (up to 7, according to some Polish historians), of which 20% didn't survive it?

      Now, do you have any substantial problems with my reasoning? Or are you just seeking justification for your purely emotion-driven hatred of USSR/Russia, and name-calling is all there is to it?

  29. don't believe the hype by roman_mir · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This will be another manner, in which government money will be pumped into the pockets of the government officials.

    It has been proposed by the government there that in order to 'promote' innovation, the firms, who will be allowed to enter the zone will be selected by government officials. In the zone they will not have to pay taxes I think but the most important aspect of this is that whoever is in the zone will be getting government contracts WITHOUT any competition. So that tells you everything you need to know about what will happen. The firms selected will be the ones close to the government officials selecting them and they will get the contracts for any 'innovations', which in reality will not promote any innovation, except one type of innovation: an easier way to siphon money for the politicians and their friends/relatives/people with the right attitude towards doing business, if you know what I mean.

    1. Re:don't believe the hype by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ve know who you are, roman_mir, and ve are comink for you. It is not long now, I tink.

      Seriously, though, you are right, and what's with property not being for sale? Isn't the American Dream partly based on owning your own home (which they are trying to replicate, in part)? Who are they going to attract to this place? Their own relatives and cronies only.

    2. Re:don't believe the hype by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      Ve know who you are, roman_mir, and ve are comink for you. It is not long now, I tink.

      - oh, shit. Oh, shit. Someone's knocking on the door. Now they are at the window! Breaking in! Hold on, there is sometthhh^%$#^%%^&

      NO CARRIER

  30. No private property eh? by cstec · · Score: 1

    Property will not be owned, but rented....to compete, Russia will form a place apart for scientists. 'They should be isolated from our reality.'"

    Proving that once again, they just don't get it.

    1. Re:No private property eh? by selven · · Score: 1

      Property in this case refers to land. And there is nothing unreasonable about rejecting the idea that a person has a natural right to prevent 6.8 billion other people from even harmlessly treading on a certain patch of land just because.

  31. Not a fat chance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I immigrated from Russia to US a couple decades ago. No matter how they dress their city up, they will not be able to foster the kind of innovation and opportunity that the US provides. Until they fix that massive corruption there, I will not touch investing there with a 1000 foot pole (and I suspect many others have the same line of thinking).

    I read a story once of this guy who went there to establish a Subway chain. Once he got it set up, he had to leave for a bit to tend to some other business. When he came back there were these hired goons with guns who ran him off his own business premises and took over. Now, I bet that these kind of things happen fairly regularly (hell, you can even hire the police there to do your dirty deeds).

    You would have to be a convoluted retard to take your money to that region and expect any kind of return on your investment. You'd be lucky to keep your head attached to your body. If your business doesn't get jacked, your ass will - in hopes to score some ransom.

    They need to focus less on imitating, and more on fixing deep inherent problems like corruption. Pour that money in restructuring policy and security first, then worry about the infrastructure that will ride on that policy.

  32. Re:Didn't the EU try recently something like this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    > I don't have time to look for the Slashdot article

    You must be new here.

  33. Comment from a Russian by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I have an IT background and a decade of experience working with/for Russian government IT-related agencies.

    There're several cities in Russia with strong academic traditions which were the analogue of Silicon Valley during Soviet times (Novosibirsk is the best known of all).
    There're cities near Moscow which even have high-tech-production infrastructure (Zelenograd, a "microchip city" of Soviet times) - they are not being used.

    What government does is building "Silicon Valley" in a empty field near Moscow - easier to launder money this way.

    I'm willing to bet a thousand bucks that there are only three possible outcomes:

    1) 90% of funding laundered to offshore banks, 10% is spent on administrative expenses (shiny sport cars for management), project is silently closed and written off;

    2) 90% of funding laundered to offshore banks, 10% is spent on administrative expenses (shiny sport cars for management), scape goat it found and publicly spanked (but not too hard), project is closed and written off;

    3) 90% of funding laundered to offshore banks, 5% is spent on administrative expenses (shiny sport cars for management), 5% is spent to build a couple of buildings and hire 10 scientific-looking guys. They are made into media stars to show how great new "Silicon Valley" is. Project is declared a huge success. After a year the funding is cut, project is silently closed and written off.

    There's no other possible outcome given the amount of corruption in Russia and this government track record.

    1. Re:Comment from a Russian by Alex+Belits · · Score: 1

      I can assure you, actual Silicon Valley for most of 90's was exactly what you are describing.

      Except with Federal Reserve pumping debt into stock market and real estate "prices" compensated for this, so no one bothered with offshoring. Actual progress happened despite all this money-shuffling game.

      --
      Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
  34. IBM and the high temperature superconductor etc by dbIII · · Score: 1

    IBM had a similar attitude to Bell labs. I don't know if they still do however.

    1. Re:IBM and the high temperature superconductor etc by anonymousbob22 · · Score: 1
  35. It's not about VC and it's not about suburbia by tlambert · · Score: 1

    It's not about VC and it's not about suburbia.

    Russia, unfortunately, doesn't have strong enforcement of the rule of law, and it doesn't acknowledge intellectual property rights.

    As much as I think long term software patents are B.S., a much shorter term protection for software and an period of protection aligned with that of other W.T.O. members would go a long way towards opening up Russia to business, and a long way to stopping the "brain drain" their politicians are complaining about. The normalization and bilateral agreements on intellectual property are missing, and that's the major reason Russia remains an observer at the W.T.O. rather than being a member. There an excellent paper which makes this point right here:

            http://www.carnegieendowment.org/files/cp73_katz_final.pdf

    Without the ability to feel safe in their homes, they are not going to attract the talent or the entrepreneurs.

    Reading the article, it looks like the capitalists are asking for a free-for-all zone, while the government is interested in putting together another cold war era style "science city", where the inhabitants are just as insulated. To quote from the article:

    "In California, the climate is beautiful and they don't have the ridiculous problems of Russia," Mr. Shtorkh said. To compete, he said, Russia will form a place apart for scientists. "They should be isolated from our reality," he added.

    ...which does absolutely nothing to fix that "reality" so that their new "science city" becomes anything more than a walled microcosm of a Silicon Valley suburb surrounding a Silicon Valley tech park.

    This seems as wrong to me as the U.S. Government "fixing the economy" by giving tons of taxpayer money to the very people who broke it in the first place. I do not expect this venture to be successful unless they very quickly change their ground rules on intent and plan of action.

    -- Terry

  36. Need a new diverse technology zone - old one broke by dbIII · · Score: 1

    No problem, they've got a lot of people that have come back from Silicon Valley so they don't have to invent it from scratch.
    Russia, China and others are putting a lot of money into trying to create the Silicon Valley situation where people with good ideas come from all over the world and can get funding for their ideas. It will probably work somewhere because the USA has destroyed the advantage they had by making it difficult for people to get in and by not having much investment money available anymore. It doesn't help that California is run like Albania on cocaine.
    China's probably got the head start near Hong Kong but there is a lot of energy money in Russia.

  37. Cargo cult by Nephrite · · Score: 1

    They think if they build special city and make special signs on buildings they'll magically have the technologies flock to them and make them money. But really they (read: russian officials) just will steal the money allotted for building the "city".

    1. Re:Cargo cult by AHuxley · · Score: 1

      FSB steals US tech and off loads units.
      What percentage makes it back to the Russian savants city?

      --
      Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
    2. Re:Cargo cult by Eric+Smith · · Score: 1

      The "isolated from our reality" part of the quote sums it up quite nicely.

  38. Re:Didn't the EU try recently something like this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    You must also be extremely closed-minded as well as short on time...

    Oxford, Kingston, Cambridge, London Metropolitan University, University Of Greenwich, King's College London, Glasgow University, St Andrews and the Imperial College to name a few, are all famous Universities across the UK with thriving communities surrounding them. They are some of the best schools and universities in the world and Cambridge and Oxford are ranked 1 & 2 respectively for physics research here in the UK with a lot of interesting work being done at both.

    In what universe does the EU (or at least the UK) need to compete with Yale and Harvard?

    P.S. At least we do get ideas, instead of trying to make existing ones pay out for a few centuries... (Cheap shot, but who cares?)

  39. Isolation from reality? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Perelman didn't need ... isolation from reality. It's the meat grinding machine of Russian society that creates that kind of genius in the first place. That said, they do need a way to materialize theoretical science into concrete enterprises.

  40. Fixing central plainning with central planning? by divisionbyzero · · Score: 1

    Uh, are they really still trying to be build communist utopias in capitalist Russia? Perhaps I'm missing something but this sounds like a planned city with a state run economy. It's almost the opposite of Silicon Valley. In large part Silicon Valley developed because of the conditions around it that fostered entrepreneurship (e.g. proximity of smart, relatively wealthy kids with lots of spare time at nearby colleges, good research facilities, etc). If Russia finds a location to replicate the conditions found in Silicon Valley, then that would be fantastic, but trying to create something from the top-down that duplicates Silicon Valley rather than cultivating something that grows from the bottom-up is doomed to failure.

    1. Re:Fixing central plainning with central planning? by home-electro.com · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Relax, they do not hope to create a new Silicon Valley. They are not that dumb. Putin, for one, is pretty smart guy and he knows it's not going to work. It's not the first time, you know. There were a host of other so called 'national projects' before this. (Nanotechnology, anyone?) What this really is a way to siphon government money into private pockets of government officials, create some impression of work they do, and boost morale and pride of the general populace as a bonus side effect. It's much easier, you know, than address and fix the real problem -- total corruption of every government institute, starting from traffic patrol and all the way up the president himself.
      We've been there, seen that. Nothing new, really... Move along, people -- just another day in Russia....

    2. Re:Fixing central plainning with central planning? by divisionbyzero · · Score: 1

      Relax, they do not hope to create a new Silicon Valley. They are not that dumb. Putin, for one, is pretty smart guy and he knows it's not going to work. It's not the first time, you know. There were a host of other so called 'national projects' before this. (Nanotechnology, anyone?) What this really is a way to siphon government money into private pockets of government officials, create some impression of work they do, and boost morale and pride of the general populace as a bonus side effect. It's much easier, you know, than address and fix the real problem -- total corruption of every government institute, starting from traffic patrol and all the way up the president himself.
      We've been there, seen that. Nothing new, really... Move along, people -- just another day in Russia....

      Ah, ok, as long as they are not serious...

  41. Ooooh! by hey! · · Score: 2, Funny

    A city with the sprawling suburban charm of San Jose with ... Russian weather?

    Where do I sign up?

    --
    Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    1. Re:Ooooh! by Eric+Smith · · Score: 1

      That's "sprawling urban charm". There isn't any suburban charm to be found anywhere near here.

  42. It is all about the Externalities by alexander_686 · · Score: 1

    It is all about the Externalities

    “Under capitalism, science is often bent to the needs of the patron/employer/investor.”

    So What? Is this good, bad or indifferent? Let me tell you why.

    Basic Research [i.e. Science done at Research Universities, Bell Labs, etc.] has the following qualities.
          High Variance [Lots of missies, but the hits tend to be home runs]
          Commercial applications tend to be 10+ years. I tend to disagree with people who say that companies are driven by quarterly profits – however business plans tend to fall apart if longer then 10 years – just too many variables and assumptions.
          Value of the research tends to land outside of the company. It is hard to put the genie back in the bottle. It took years of tinkering to make computer chips, lasers, biotech, LCD, etc. from an interesting niche product to something mainstream. The companies that blazed the trail in research have a no better chance of producing a main stream product as a Johnny come lately.

    Basic Research generates great value – only some of which lands with the company – most lands with the public.

    I tend towards the liberation side, but unless we have draconian IP laws on the books the profit motive tends to underfund basic research.

    I have great doubts about the this City – but this is because I tend to think of grand scale from scratch projects are mostly doomed vanity projects.

  43. Short term vs long term thinking : issues ! by OeLeWaPpErKe · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The problem, however with government-funded basic research is the lack of useful applications. A centrally-funded scientist has no reason -at all- to convert his discovery into an actual invention, so this will generally not happen.

    Perhaps an example : in the 20th century cars were invented. The basic principle of the explosive engine, however, had long been demonstrated by "patronized" scientists (scientists working for royalty), and was generally well-known. Actual test explosion-based engines had rotated (a few times) 150 years before the invention of the car (granted, due to lack of useable fuel they weren't practical, but still. One such engine was built into some of the first machine guns).

    So it seems to me the answer is somewhere in the middle, on the one hand provide generous subsidies, on the other hand forcing scientists to go into the private sector. Perhaps a time limit on employment at universities would provide the right incentives ? Make it generous, say 16 years. But after 16 years, every cent of subsidy stops, and they have to find a private investor.

    The same problem poses itself in general problem solving. The time horizon that is a property of rational thought. What is rationally optimal for the next 3 seconds will generally be a very different beast from what is rationally optimal for the next 10 years. And, while perhaps only relevant for the catholic church and evolution, is radically different from rationally optimal stuff with a 500 year time horizon.

    Let's take global warming and having children, and compare the optimal actions depending on time horizons :
    3 seconds : optimal course is to ignore global warming, children are not even theoretically possible
    10 years : optimal course is to ignore global warming (except that it might relieve social pressures, or gain one power, but you cannot scientifically defend it), children are not advisable
    50 years : moderate actions to prevent global warming would seem to be rational. Children might be nice to have.
    100 years : large costs to prevent global warming seem justified, although one should also take into account that oil will be gone long before this time passes. In this time period, obviously it is absolutely essential to have sufficient children to carry on after you're dead. The more, the better.
    500 years : ignore global warming (after all, wel WILL run out of oil in less than 50 years, so what's the big hubhub all about ?). Instead, focus on lots of children, but keep in mind that the ideology must survive : so limit the amount of children high enough to expand, but low enough so that each can get a good education.

    1. Re:Short term vs long term thinking : issues ! by drsquare · · Score: 1

      The problem, however with government-funded basic research is the lack of useful applications. A centrally-funded scientist has no reason -at all- to convert his discovery into an actual invention, so this will generally not happen.

      Who says that's a problem? Perhaps you think discovering the secrets of the universe isn't important if it doesn't provide you with a consumer gadget.

      Yeah, throw scientists to the wolves of the private sector. So instead of discovering that new particle or galaxy, they can make a new obesity pill* to keep the fast food giants in profit, or increase the screen size of your iphone so you can more effectively wank yourself off to Internet porn in the company toilets.

      *I say new, I mean, slightly change an existing pill so they can re-patent it.

    2. Re:Short term vs long term thinking : issues ! by fpitech · · Score: 1

      Yes, I think that some kind of innovation culture is required in the universities so that the system works effectively. Maybe financial incentives for scientists, such as money for patent applications. And scientists should be somehow encouraged to start up companies to commercialize their inventions. Funding shouldn't be automatical for projects of course, and some degree of supervision would be degree. But too much control and pressure can hinder innovation.

    3. Re:Short term vs long term thinking : issues ! by OeLeWaPpErKe · · Score: 1

      Yeah, throw scientists to the wolves of the private sector. So instead of discovering that new particle or galaxy, they can make a new obesity pill* to keep the fast food giants in profit, or increase the screen size of your iphone so you can more effectively wank yourself off to Internet porn in the company toilets.

      If you mean to throw them to the wolves so that they'd use science for things that the general population (ie : me) actually wants them to use science for, then ...

      yes ...

      that's exactly what I mean.

  44. Russian Tradition? by Poodleboy · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The "Russian tradition of building secret towns?" Towns like Oak Ridge, TN, or Los Alamos, NM, or Hanford, WA, maybe? Explain again how this project is doomed to fail as a government effort to make a technological leap. On the contrary, our own experience is great success doing this sort of thing. Nor is this an American peculiarity--the Germans very successfully built an entire town at Peenemunde to develop and construct V-2 rockets. In fact, here in America we capitalized on this success by moving its authors, notably Werner von Braun, to Huntsville, AL where we created yet another failed government experiment to land men on the moon...

    I'm thinking that people should read a bit less Ayn Rand science fiction and a bit more actual history.

  45. Eureka by MobyDisk · · Score: 1

    They should have modeled it after Eureka, a town made-up almost entirely of geniuses.

  46. I think he has it backwards... by grasshoppa · · Score: 2, Interesting

    'In California, the climate is beautiful and they don't have the ridiculous problems of Russia,' says Andrey Shtorkh, publicist for the new venture, adding that to compete, Russia will form a place apart for scientists. 'They should be isolated from our reality.'"

    While I certainly won't disagree that California seems to be isolated from everyone else's reality, I think he has it backwards in that scientists should be isolated. The hell they should! Scientists need to be in society to see what problems it faces and be inspired to find solutions for them. By isolating them, you are effectively removing some of the best stimulus available for them.

    Not only that, but the economy is the best way to determine the feasibility of a product. So what they've done here is to guarantee every crack pot scheme ( and face it, fellow scientists, we have a lot of them. Even if they seem AWESOME to us at the time, we do come up with some doosies ) gets an equal shake with a genuine idea.

    I don't see this ending well for them, but I hope I'm wrong.

    --
    Mod me down with all of your hatred and your journey towards the dark side will be complete!
  47. They were talking about it for years now by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Problem is, with all that oil revenue going to ruling KGB mob coffins, who needs science?
    BTW, what's up with recent russian astroturfing here on ./ ? Sure, Putin set up ministry of truth to make waves on intraweb when he came to power, but it was mostly limited to russian speaking sites so far.

  48. In Soviet Russia... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Silicon Valley builds Government?

  49. Wait 30 years... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    If Russia gets a Silicon Valley, it will be one of those previous science cities or failed attempts. The real genesis of Silicon Valley was government funded folks getting trained and introduced to things like radio communications and radar during and after the two world wars, then having the apron strings cut and finding their own work in the civilian world. A few of those folks nucleated new groups that tinkered on consumer product ideas, and the valley was born.

    The part the government played was in educating a wider range of people in technical topics, and in triggering development on cheap land near military bases and port cities that had already filled with more traditional business and industry.

  50. most developed countries have already tried this by peter303 · · Score: 1

    And none of them has come close to the dynamism seen in Silicon Valley. They often lack one of the key components: a university, insatiable entreprenuerism, intelligent capital, etc. The main advantage Russia might have is previous experience with top-rated Science Cities like Novasibirsk.

  51. 'They should be isolated from our reality.' by hessian · · Score: 1

    Yes, clearly the human species needs more distance from reality. It's not like ignoring reality created all of our problems so far.

    1. Re:'They should be isolated from our reality.' by khallow · · Score: 1

      It's not like ignoring reality created all of our problems so far.

      Well, a bunch of problems come from conflicts of interest.

  52. This is good news. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "There is a single light of science, and to brighten it anywhere is to brighten it everywhere."
    -Isaac Asimov

  53. What the HELL is wrong with you people? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It took over 100 posts before we got the first In Soviet Russia joke?

    This is not the slashdot I grew up with! What a sad day indeed.

  54. My proposal... by DragonTHC · · Score: 1

    If the whole country needs a breakthrough, I propose it be that russians stop being so scummy and criminalistic.

    The power vacuum left the whole country like the wild west.

    --
    They're using their grammar skills there.
  55. Taiwan by HungWeiLo · · Score: 1

    Hsinchu, Taiwan is one of the few (are there any others?) successful examples of centrally-planned science cities (founded during its period of totalitarianism).

    --
    There are a huge number of yeast infections in this county. Probably because we're downriver from the bread factory.
  56. Their previous attempt.. by Tmack · · Score: 1
    Their previous attempt to build a high-tech city worked out great!

    -Tm

    --
    Support TBI Research: http://www.raisinhope.org
  57. Almost, but not quite by slew · · Score: 1

    More likely...

    1. Cheap startup resources (e.g., cheap land in a reasonable climate initially)
    2. Ambitious institutions (e.g., a university like Stanford) to recruit researchers
    3. Money to start companies (be it funding from military contracts or industrial investment)

    Also the silicon valley of today is really different in many ways from the silicon valley of the past (when it was starting up).

    Most folks forget about the cheap resources aspect (because it's far from being cheap now). Originaly the land resource was cheap (stanford leased land cheaply to companies and the land in the orchards that were originally in the southbay was easy pickings for companies that wanted their own campus). Today the land is expensive, but it's still reasonably to start a company as it's easier to build "people" resource into critical mass quickly (there are lots of experienced folks to hire away from other companies). When you are burning money in a startup company, building critical mass quickly and getting access to experience people efficiently is still worth something, although this is becoming more of an issue in SV of today.

    In addition to Stanford and UC Berkeley, corporations like IBM, Intel, HP, SGI, and Applied Materials (in the past), and now Google, Genentech, Gilead are recruiting researchers to the area. Researchers that may have originally been attracted to a low cost housing and weather, may now weigh the odds of continued employment in the same geographic location (and for a spouse if trying to solve the 2-body problem) if the original plans don't pan out.

    The money has transtioned from military contracts, to venture capital (sand-hill), and in some ways to serial capital (e.g., someone made a bunch of money on one startup, and now does another startup).

    In some sense, Silicon Valley rebuilt itself a few more times using the same ingredients, but a different formula. Seems like this could be recreated elsewhere, but as always, there's an element of perseverance. I think it's the preseverance that is the what is missing in most of the SV knock-offs. Often governments put money into it, fail to get critical mass, get impatient, then pull the plug. I'm guess you really need is something like military contracts and an ambitious institution who don't really care about economic efficiency to get the ball rolling.

    Even if the ball is rolling, it'll eventually stop (as it has in SV many times), and somebody has to get it going again. That's often the element that is forgotten. Wasn't it Thomas Edison one of the folks that popularized this route to one of the precursors to SV, Menlo Park NJ?

  58. "Isolated from our reality" by HTH+NE1 · · Score: 1

    They need to keep their society's necessities from mothering their inventions.

    --
    Oh, say does that Star-Spangled Banner entwine / The myrtle of Venus with Bacchus's vine?
  59. Re:Russian high-tech is hindered not by lack of mo by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This post is on the money. I spent some time in another Former Soviet Union (FSU) country. It is amazing to see how the government hinders the economy there. I have concluded that to have a flourishing economy,you need several things:

      1. Good educational institutions. Many FSU countries have pretty good sci/tech colleges. 2. Security of private property. People have to believe that they can keep what they create, and investors have to believe that their investment won't be taken somehow by the state, through unfair taxes, fines, or nationalization. 3. Legal stability. This is absolutely critical-in the country I visited the laws were changing almost monthly. Imagine trying to start a company when all the licenses you need are changing all the time. 4. An economic culture in which most people play by the rules. In many FSU countries, the lack of property security and legal stability lead to corruption and black markets, sometimes almost a third or a half of the so-called legal economy. 5. Labor force mobility-this is a tricky one-unless you live there for awhile you can't appreciate how difficult it is to move outside your own "Oblast" or region. Suffice to say there is a lot of paperwork and cost to live in another district.

    All of this to say-it is not wrong to try to create a scientific/tech development zone, but the larger issues facing the economy in Russia will be problematic for that tech zone also.

  60. And by mahadiga · · Score: 1

    Paul Graham has wrote an brilliant article on this subject http://www.paulgraham.com/america.html

    • The US Allows Immigration
    • The US Is a Rich Country
    • The US Is Not (Yet) a Police State.
    • American Universities Are Better.
    • You Can Fire People in America.
    • In America Work Is Less Identified with Employment.
    • America Is Not Too Fussy.
    • America Has a Large Domestic Market.
    • America Has Venture Funding.
    • America Has Dynamic Typing for Careers.
    • Attitudes
    • How To Do Better
    • Capital Gains
    • Immigration
    • A Good Vector
    --
    I'd like to buy homeland for our 10 million people. http://twitter.com/mahadiga
  61. Can I eat like Silicon Valley? by ml10422 · · Score: 1

    They better make sure I can get dim sum for breakfast, sushi for lunch, and burritos for dinner, or I ain't going there.