Slashdot Mirror
Neil Armstrong Criticizes Obama's Space Strategy
An anonymous reader writes "Former astronaut Neil Armstrong has issued a strongly worded rebuke of President Barack Obama, criticizing the president for proposed revisions to the US space program. Armstrong, along with astronauts James Lovell and Eugene Cernan, called the proposal 'devastating' in a letter obtained by NBC News."
What a moran. just because he one the Tour de France, doesn't mean he's qualified to comment on our president's policies!
I don't know how long ago this letter was drafted, but in response Obama has already changed some of his plans for NASA: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/04/13/AR2010041304043.html
How about a slashdot story about that rather than old news?
Buzz Aldrin (the second human to walk on the moon) has a different take
The Shuttle basically is a jobs program (for Florida, mainly). But it's an awfully expensive one. Redirecting the funds to more efficient unmanned and private industry programs will accomplish more with the same money.
I don't think that, given all the other issues facing the country, putting together a space station or another manned mission are really priorities.
When will it be a priority? When China lands on Mars? When the EU, China or Russia colonize the Moon? When we detect an incoming asteroid?
This is shortsighted policy at it's finest. How much additional funding did NASA require to make Constellation viable? As I recall it was only a few billion. We spend hundreds of billions to force people into a broken health insurance market, hundreds of billions bailing out companies that deserved to fail and hundreds of billions invading countries that never attacked us. We can't find a few billion to keep a manned space program? Pathetic.
The dinosaurs died out because they didn't have a space program.....
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
...but manned space flight really hasn't done much for us.
You realize the computer you typed that message on was built using parts originally designed for the manned space program, right?
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
I'm not sure why clout should matter. Evaluate the arguments on their merits where possible. I am a fairly strong Obama supporter on most issues (I wish he'd be a bit more assertive on gay rights and financial regulation, but given I'm straight and work for a hedge fund, the feeling doesn't have the weight of self interest behind it), but the sole point of complete disagreement is his vision, or lack thereof, for NASA. I've heard the arguments that the "new" NASA will somehow develop all the necessary interplanetary exploration technologies instead of wasting money returning to the moon, but I'm skeptical that we'll develop useful technology without a direct mission requirement that it satisfies. It just seems like yet another step in the long, slow decline of our space program since the Challenger accident.
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So the space program not only killed seven people, but needlessly killed seven people.
If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires, both subtle and gross. But it's not for the timid.
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
So the new compromise is "half a spaceship"- one that can land, but not launch. Only a politician could invent that one. NASA programs have horizons of 10 -2 5 years, but politicians respond to two year election cycles. Bush cancels shuttle. Obama cancels is successor. Obama need better science advice.
Government funding of space travel? I dunno, sounds mighty socialist to me. If we didn't cut funding I bet Obama would launch a statue of Lenin into orbit to gaze down disapprovingly at our capitalist paradise!
In all seriousness, without a good heavy launcher we'll be at a strategic disadvantage, and the constant scuppering of next-generation space vehicle development is starting to look really stupid. Between VentureStar and Constellation, exactly how many tax dollars have been wasted because some penny-pinching bureaucrat decided it would be "cheaper in the long run?"
The WSJ has something to say about that very thing today:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303828304575180243952375172.html?mod=WSJ_hpp_sections_opinion
This is why I cannot get on board with the Democrats. Their "good intentions" are seriously misguided, and in fact fly in the face of all modern economic research. We now have unemployment benefits extended up to 2 years - 2 YEARS!!! Talk about an incentive to not work! Meanwhile, the Republicans are cast as heartless because they want to force Congressional Democrats to follow their own PayGo legislation! I would hardly call expecting someone to find a job doing SOMETHING in under 2 years' time "being heartless." It may not be your dream job, but if you live in America then you still won the Ovarian Lottery as Warren Buffet would say.
Hopefully, that litmus test won't be applied. While I do have the utmost respect for Armstrong, Lovell and Cernan as people with brass balls the size of a Volkswagen bus, they are not accountants or business people. The number one financial rule in any project is: don't throw good money after bad money. It's gone. Don't make it worse. And from what I understand from the Constellation project, it was just not going to fly - not without pouring enough money and time into it to start from scratch. As a result, it makes sense to scratch it, even if this means short-term pain. What I'm hoping for is that the knowledge that we don't have a complete system for putting people and cargo into orbit spurs people into creating that system.
I really hope that the scratching of the Constellation project frees up the resources to create a real lifting program - or at least frees up resources to provide technical assistance to commercial ventures trying to do the same.
Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
Yeah, go to hell victims of reckless real estate speculation, those aerospace contractors deserve that government cheese!
You realize the rockets used were based on Nazi technology to deliver payloads? You realize the computer used for the manned space program was based on the cryptographic requirements to decode the Enigma machines in WWII? Therefore, to enhance technology we can conclude the world needs to be perpetually at war. Isn't this exactly what's already happening?
It's interesting to note that the Air Force is taking over low-high orbit exploration. I recently read an article that if not mirrors slightly what Armstrong is talking about; it certainly elaborates on what proposition America has for it's space exploration future. The Air Force is proposing a new reusable platform aircraft for exploration; following in the long line of advanced craft with the same naming convention such as the Bell X-1 (which broke the sonic barrier) http://www.dailytech.com/US+Air+Force+X37B+Reusable+Spacecraft+to+Launch+Into+Orbit+Later+This+Month/article18077.htm, You'll also note that Nasa has recently started arming unmanned craft with scientific equipment; http://www.dailytech.com/NASA+Global+Hawk+Completes+First+Science+Flight/article18096.htm I certainly think were in a transition right now with our space program, With the Air Force reusable platform; It's a scary thought should they decide to make it a weapons platform. I think we should see what's going to happen to our space program; also speak out if we don't agree as americans with what is happening to our space program. It was an awesome step that kennedy took in '61 and what we accomplished on July 20, 1969. It's unfortunate we haven't been back in 40 years. Lets see what we can do now with current technology.
Of all the things I've lost; I miss my mind the most. - Mark Twain
For the record, I don't think Constellation was such a great idea either, but at least it provided a goal. I just wish a president would have the courage to call for enough of a NASA budget to not only go to another planet/moon for visit, but to set up a permanent presence. It's not even the whole extinction worry some people seem to have, I just feel that our pioneering drive was responsible for some of the greatest advances, both cultural and economic, in our history (also some of the greatest atrocities, but we'll have to hope there aren't any natives this time around).
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Apollo Astronauts: Obama Space Plan Will Put the U.S. "on a long downhill slide to mediocrity"
April 14, 2010 (LPAC)—In an open letter, obtained by long-time space reporter Jay Barbree, and first reported on the NBC Nightly News Tuesday evening, three of the Apollo astronauts who embody the dedication, no-nonesense attitude, and commitment that brought this nation to the Moon, attacked President Obama's proposal to kill NASA's Constellation program. Neil Armstrong, Commander of Apollo 11, which landed the first astronauts on the Moon; James Lovell, the Commander of the near-fatal Apollo 13 mission (NASA's "finest hour"); and Gene Cernan, Commander of Apollo 17, and the last man to set foot upon the Moon, described the cancellation as "devastating."
Reprising the history of the American space program, the three former astronauts state: "World leadership in space was not achieved easily. In the first half-century of the space age, our country made a significant financial investment, thousands of Americans dedicated themselves to the effort, and some gave their lives to achieve the dream of a nation." No program in modern history, they state, "has been so effective in motivating the young to do 'what has never been done before.'"
Nor was the development and design of the Constellation program haphazard or ill-conceived, they state. "The Ares rocket family was patterned after the [Wernher] von Braun Modular concept so essential to the success of the Saturn 1B and the Saturn V" rockets, which took them to the Moon. Although we will have "wasted our current $10-plus billion investment in Constellation," equally important, "we will have lost the many years required to recreate the equivalent of what we will have destroyed." This, for a second time, following the cancellation of the follow-on missions to Apollo, to live on the Moon.
The timing of this letter is no accident. On Thursday, President Obama makes a whirlwind stop in Florida, at the Kennedy Space Center, to try to sell this destruction of manned space flight. Three days ago, more than 4,000 people rallied nearby in protest, to tell the President what they think of his plan. There has been virtually NO support anywhere for this "outsourcing" of NASA. Out of 435 Representatives and 100 Senators, ONE has backed the President. And he will see, again, the outrage of the American people.
Manned space flight isn't about being "cost effective", "high priority", or "a good return on investment" (yes, I've heard all of these terms used in regards to spaceflight). It's about exploration, curiosity, and wonder. I challenge you to tell someone who was around on July 20, 1969 that manned spaceflight is pointless.
It's about doing something simply to show that it can be done, like the explorers of centuries past. I suppose some people find that concept unimportant or even boring.
I would say that those people are unimportant and boring.
"You will pay for your lack of vision..." - Emperor Palpatine to Ray Charles
Robots can't do everything repairs to equipment for one are tough to do because of the delay and not seeing the full picture. Manned endeavors are ways to get the general public interested in science again to do this requires great feats which have been canceled by Obama so we don't intimidate countries that hate us. Furthermore I think it is Obama's goal to make the US weak because nobody hates a loser, but nobody respects one either.
Knowledge = Power
P= W/t
t=Money
Money = Work/Knowledge so the less you know the more you make
My opinion will probably get modded down, simply because someone on slashdot disagrees with it.
I think giving up on manned space flight is a mistake. I think MORE money put into it will eventually bring new technologies and new technologies bring economic success as American CEOs love outsourcing the economic benefits of existing technology.
That said, I really think people have lost a sense of gravity for where the country is right now.
A year ago the world and the US was on the edge of falling into an economic depression. Unemployment is almost 10%, the worst it has been since the Regan years in 1981. There is no money, anywhere. Turn on the news any given day of the week and you will hear that.
Now is not the time for more government spending.
It would be like a person deciding to buy a new car (without a need) after getting fired and after having their savings account depleted by a health care expense.
How can we 'refine' what we no longer have?
The Saturn V's gone. The shuttle is in it's waning years. Constellation is cancelled. We have no launch vehicle anymore.
But it's ok, if we need someone shot into space, we'll just ask the Russians or Chinese. The Indians are getting close too. Apparently THEY still see reasons to maintain and develop space programs. What's our ruddy excuse?
It's not just that. It's also a question of getting something for your money.
Government all around the world give unemployment or 'make work' projects. The one good thing about Asia is their make work projects tend to be productive. Japan creates lots of jobs as it builds infrastructure like rail and roads and bridges... Maybe it's a waste of money. But hey, at least when they're done creating jobs, they have something to show for it. Not just the physical results, but also the retained skill sets.
Contrast that to just spending money on employment insurance, or making more BS government jobs with bureaucrats and lawyers and tax people.
So yes, maybe the space program is a waste of money. But I'd rather have my tax money go to people working at NASA pushing the envelope of space and engineering, than have people paid to do nothing productive (unemployed, bureaucracy, lawyers...).
War provided the necessary impetus to develop the technologies. The fact that we invest more in research during war doesn't make investing in research bad. Investing in pure research is hard to sell though, so we hide it behind something more impressive. Personally, I'd rather we hid it behind a peaceful space program, rather than hiding it behind bombing people in the stone age back to the pre-Cambrian, but that's me.
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What? The Apollo mission has returned more money in Taxes then it costs because of the industries it created. Smoke detectors, plastics, computers, project management. and about 200 others.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
You're right about cost but I think you're wrong about capabilities. We know more about the moon as a result of the Apollo program than we do as a result of all the unmanned missions combined. A few guys on Mars could do what the rovers have done in a couple of months. Human beings are much more adaptable than any robot that will could conceivably be made within the next 20 years, probably more like 50 years.
What holds space flight back is the cost. Its simply too hard to get anything into orbit right now, let alone the extra weight of life support and supplies that human beings need. Not to mention that if we're ever going to have long range space flight we're going to need to start building ships big enough that they can be spun for gravity. The cost of launching that much material right now makes it impossible but there are, as I see it, two ways around the problem.
One: New launch technologies. There have been technologies on the drawing board that would revolutionize space travel for decades, but nothing has gone anywhere because the funds for R&D have always been spent on current missions and incremental improvements to existing designs. Nuclear rockets have been possible for at least 30 years, but public fears have made them impossible. Non-rocket launch technologies aren't really feasible yet, maybe in 20 or 30 years but current materials are either inadequate or too close to trust in such an expensive and high profile endeavor.
Two: Pull us up by our bootstraps. Launching a manned interplanetary ship from earth is too hard? Build it in orbit then. Mine the materials from NEO's, set up foundries and chemical refineries in orbit, process water and out of asteroids, and build orbital refueling stations. By the time the orbital infrastructure is set up, the materials for a space elevator will be there and it can be manufactured in orbit, eliminating the cost of launching the cable and allowing it to be manufactured as it is being deployed, saving time and money.
Maybe they could scale Constellation down to reach LEO (low earth orbit). Forget the moon, that is just going into another gravity well. it is not a "stepping stone" to mars, the asteroids, or the other planets.
The Soyuz spacecraft is based on a diving bell and was outdated almost as soon as it was built. It would be a shame if that will be the only way to get humans into space.
War in Iraq or return to the moon? You had the choice and you chose poorly. Don't pretend that this is just the new guy's problem or that spending money on health care is the issue. If America is broke (and it is, as well as being broken) you have to be more circumspect about where you spend your limited funds. Constellation failed on the last guy's watch because the vision for creating it and the funds for building it were limited from the outset. See here: http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d09844.pdf
...like sending them up to the Indian space station, or visiting the Chinese moon base.
If you take the long view, Obama's plan to slow down the US space program may be the best thing for it. The most progress NASA ever made was while trying to catch up with the Russians, so trying to recreate the same circumstances might...
Nah, I've tried, but I can't really defend this move. I understand the reasoning behind it, but it looks like it's going to cause more harm than good.
Plus the space program is a way to put money into the struggling economy that will have benefits for US and mankind down the road.
Actually, Armstrong is notorious for shutting up. He's a very private person and generally avoids the limelight. That's what makes his statement so surprising - he's usually gone out of his way to stay out of the political infighting.
If he's opening his mouth now, Obama's proposal must have rubbed him the wrong way in a really, really big way. When was the last time you heard a public statement from Neil Armstrong?
American Third Position
Finally, a real choice!
Because it's far more expensive. Robots can't be programmed to react to strange things. So 1 in 5 shuttles blows up and kills 2 people; versus 5 in 5 shuttles blowing up and costing a trillion and a half dollars each. The research grinds to a halt, and because we fail on a technological level at something, some threat later becomes insurmountable, and hundreds of millions of people die. Oops.
Support my political activism on Patreon.
The US space program has killed 14 people within spacecraft, 3 more in a test craft.
Countless test pilots have been killed in experimental aircraft.
These people know the situations they're put in, and to die on the job like they did, and to call it needless, grossly insults their memory. These people put their lives on the line for the betterment of science and humanity and I highly doubt any of them would want it any other way.
Landing on the moon did an AMAZING amount to boost the morale of the country, cause people to dream, push themselves, open their minds to possibilities, etc. If it weren't for landing on the moon, the country (and thus the world) would be decades behind where we currently are.
I'd go so far as to say if we, or hell..anyone else, for that matter...could even just land on the moon again...the same thing would happen. Did it provide immediate benefits that justified the cost? No. What it did instead was inspire not three generations of people to dream, to reach for the stars, to explore, to innovate...
Lets see how much cheaper his plan is once Russia jacks up their prices for getting into LEO and the US has no alternative. Once you disband these programs you can't decide later on to just start them back up. If Obama's plans fail then the US will have to invest huge sums of money to get back to where NASA currently is.
Given that almost everything in the technology industry came directly or indirectly as a result of NASA and the space program, it's value is obvious. Most of us who read Slashdot owe the effort that went into the Apollo program for our jobs. The microprocessor, for example, was invented by Intel FOR the space program.
That's NASA FUD. Microprocessors were not invented for the space program. Apollo and the Shuttle both predate Intel, and both had non-integrated CPUs. Microprocessors were invented to make it cheaper to build desktop calculators. The USAF had a major role in developing lightweight and reliable electronics, computers and missile guidance, but that's not NASA.
The space program did not create Teflon. Or Velcro. Or even Tang.
NASA's biggest contribution to commercial technology was probably NASTRAN, the finite element analysis program.
It seems more logical to use a modular approach rather than One Big Custom Package approach. The large portions of a ship can be carried up using rockets that don't have to be man-rated, reducing their cost. Smaller, safer lifters can then take the personnel into LEO to meet up with the rest of the ship, dock, and then fly off together to study asteroids or whatnot. This appears to be what Obama is leaning toward.
Table-ized A.I.
yes..however NASA spent a shit ton load of money on companies tasked with developing systems for the Apollo.
The manufacturing techniques, systems design, and fab development we now use was all created to meet NASA's needs.
Think about that. Because of a large push from NASA, the computer industry was born. N private industry was seriously persuing making smaller faster computers. The few in the industry where still thinking large lumbering machines that would be usde by a few of the largest companies.
The computer industry is just one industry that got serious legs under it because of NASA.
Now think how much tax revenues is generated from just the computer industry. It that light the Apollo missions where some of the best investments ever made.
Ironically, that development is what made sending robots to other planets possible.
Frankly, I hate the Robots V. man debate. It should be Manned and robotic.
We need to be doing work that sets the foundation for interstellar missions.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Last public statement I can remember from him was... *checks watch* ... July 20th, 1969.
yeah, go to hell those who agreed into loans they know they couldn't afford if their "gamble" didn't pay off. /me signs for loans he knows he can afford on a "worst case" scenario. (Yes, worst case for me means working at stop and shop, walmart, and mcdonalds. I'm not mexican, just ok with working "below" where my education has taken me.)
Armstrong is also an engineer and served on the Challenger shuttle accident investigation board. Up till now he has stayed clear of politics and has been on the board of directors of many companies so yes he is also a business person.
Jim Lovell has fromal education includes
University of Wisconsin–Madison
United States Naval Academy (BS, 1952)
United States Naval Test Pilot School, Naval Air Station Patuxent River, Maryland (1958)
Aviation Safety School, University of Southern California (1961)
Advanced Management Program, Harvard Business School (1978)
I think that last one means that he has a firm grasp of business as well as engineering.
Cernan only has two degrees in engineering so he may be the least qualified of the group but then President Obama has zero education or experence in business, engineering, or accounting. His degree is in law.
Frankly these man have nothing to gain at this time. They have all done what a very select few people have done. They are all pretty much set for the rest of their lives so they don't need any more money. To dismiss them I think is the height of arrogance.
And to make matter worse President Obama isn't saving money by killing the Ares he is changing it from a program with at some goals to a welfare program! We are going to keep spending money on developing the Orion but instead of using it for maned flights we are going to use it as the worlds most expensive life boat for the space station.
We are still going to depend on Russia for manned access to space.
We are going to spend money on developing a HLLV with no goal or mission for it!
Yea this is A FREAKING NIGHTMARE OF A PLAN!
What this will let President Obama do is kill them off piece by piece but only after dropping many billions of dollars on them.
Frankly this plan seems to be to be the WORST POSSIBLE plan. Frankly it sounds like something Col Hogan would talk Col Clink into doing!
So to all those that willing to dismiss these three well educated, extremely brillant, and wise men I just want you to think about it long and hard.
This is a freaking disaster.
See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
It seems silly to think we wouldn't benefit from some other country's space program
So, their space program is going to employ American citizens, whom spend their wages in American communities and generate tax revenue for American Government? They will let their space program benefit our military, in the form of communications and recon capabilities? They will share all technologies developed for their space program without charging us for them?
so why not let them foot the research bill while we work on coming up with a sensible financial strategy
The 2009 Federal Budget included $3,100,000,000,000 of spending. NASA's 2009 fiscal year budget was $17,614,200,000. That amounts to 0.5682% of Federal spending. In reality it's considerably less than that, when you account for appropriations that weren't part of the budget (war spending, bailouts, stimulus, etc.)
I repeat my statement from another thread: Gutting the manned space program to save money is shortsighted and idiotic policy. NASA is not the reason that Federal red ink is spiraling out of control.
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
"the private sector" isn't good enough. Only lavishly expensive government programs are good enough. Fucking hypocrites.
Actually, if you're a space geek, the military taking over the space program is the best news you could wish for. Just take a look at who gets a budget. To the DOD, NASA's budget is a rounding error. If you actually want to see this stuff get funded, the Air Force is the best place for it.
American Third Position
Finally, a real choice!
Ask ten different scientists about the environment, population control, genetics and you'll get ten different answers, but there's one thing every scientist on the planet agrees on. Whether it happens in a hundred years or a thousand years or a million years, eventually our Sun will grow cold and go out. When that happens, it won't just take us. It'll take Marilyn Monroe and Lao-Tzu and Einstein and Morobuto and Buddy Holly and Aristophenes .. and all of this .. all of this was for nothing unless we go to the stars.
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
Excellent point.
Instead of spending money on research, science and exploration spend it on war. Much better fatality rate.
Life starts at the end of your comfort zone.
You're right -- it is a question of getting something for your money, which is precisely why Constellation was canceled. That program was so over budget and behind schedule that the LEO vehicle wouldn't have been ready to fly until after the space station had been deorbited. To use your make-work analogy, wouldn't it be better to build a bridge to somewhere instead of to nowhere? I'd rather have my NASA dollars spent on credible heavy-lift and real manned deep-space exploration programs (both part of the new plan), rather than on an already-failing attempt to recapitulate the Apollo program.
I guess that's why the '70s were such a golden economic age, with low inflation, low unemployment, and high Dow. Oh wait...
Millions.
The correct answer is millions.
And it won't help to go to the stars. All the stars are dying. The universe ends, probably not with a bang but with a whimper. There is no immortality, there is no escape, there is no cosmic fireball engine to ride into the next universe and the next.
But take comfort, even one million years is far longer than our species has existed. Our civilisation and its cares will be doing well to survive just 1000 more years let alone a million.
"This will diminish America's technological superiority and our lead in spaceflight."
That's pretty stupid. Let me guess: You ahven't rad the proposed changes, and don't even understand what he wants cut?
Fucking idiot.
The constellation program was going poorly. The previous administration kept micromanaging it and demands result based on a complete unrealistic and made up timeline. Plus the results they wanted kept changing.
SO the contellation program had ended up with bugs and delays.
Thbis is not opinion, it's fact.
He doesn't want ti stiop manned flight; he wants it done properly.
"He has shown nothing but contempt for our allies"
Then why are all are allies praising him? why is are foreign relations doing better now then in the last 10 years?
Stop letting Fox news think for you.
"constantly bows (literally) to our enemies."
oh dear lord. Yeah, lets completely ignore other peoples social norms when trying to do foreign relations~
"Given that almost everything in the technology industry came directly or indirectly as a result of NASA and the space program, it's value is obvious"
which is why we wants to increase NASAs budget... dick head.
"The microprocessor, for example, was invented by Intel FOR the space program."
yes, and nw better robotics are being developed for the space mission. your point?
"A full blown effort to return to the moon, to stay there permanently, and to push on to Mars would greatly benefit not only the United States but the world
true, but to do it we will need robotics to help us. Why not send robots to build the basic structures before we get there? use robots to gather material? land supplies before men arrive. Use robots to gather basic soil samples and do analyses in the field. Put mankind there to do science and develop new technologies that will be needed to go to Mars, and then to planets around other stars?
"(and hopefully only"
your predjudice is showing, and it explains you're incorrect information and logical fallacies.
"With the cancellation of Constellation, we will be retiring the shuttle by next year, WITHOUT A REPLACEMENT EVEN ON THE DRAWING BOARD!"
SO you are saying we should keep putting money into a failing program just ebcase nothing else is 'on the drawing board"? really? talk about fiscal irresponsibility. BTW, there are several other programs 'on the drawing board' Once again, your irrational views of the president are causing you to make logical flaws.
"And to those who say "cancel the space program, we have hungry people here on Earth""
I dont' say that, and I am well aware of the benefits of space mission RnD. You seem to think there will be no benefit to mankind from developing robotic missions. Why?
Please read on what and why he want's to make changes. We can have a discussion on those merits without you bringing in you incorrect assumption about Obama.
You and people like you are starting to look ridiculous. You blame everything on Obama. You don't even discuss the pros or cons of what he suggests you simple take the 'Obama wants it therefor I'm against it and I don't need to bother to think a our it at all approach." You are better then that.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
However great a pilot Armstrong has been (literally superhuman when you consider various 'accidents' during early tests of docking in Earth orbit), he sat on the board of Morton-Thiokol (supplier of solid rocket boosters for shuttle missions) for over a decade, until retirement.
Morton-Thiokol is HEAVILY invested in current technology supporting both the shuttle and Ares/Constellation.
I see Armstrong's support for the Ares/Constellation plan as more support for his employer, than for the space program.
It is time to quit lining the pockets of contractors to keep building 1970's technology for the space program and develop some game-changing technology for getting material into orbit. As it is, we are sooooo engrossed with 1970's tech (like returning to the moon???) that we will never send men to the Asteroid Belt in my lifetime.
After all, that IS NASA's game, isn't it?
Wherever You Go, There You Are
because if I start doing research on something today, that means I'll have new product tomorrow! Woooot!
Victim? I think the word you wanted here was "participant." Saying that people were victims of bad loans is like sayig I'm a victim of McDonalds because I bought fries there. "Oh, but McDonalds didn't give you the details about the fries." Bullshit. If someone had told me I could eat the fries and not get fat it would be my own fault for believing something so monumentally stupid. Read the loan. Understand the loan. Make sure you can and will be able to pay for the loan. Sign the loan. It's not rocket science.
That is a very salient point.
But I still can't agree with his arguments (yes, I read them). I think killing NASA's booster programs HAD to happen.
Let's not forget how this was supposed to work: NASA was supposed to build a manned program on the backs of the military's hardware. If there was going to be a major space program beyond that, it would be those same aerospace contractors who would be designing, building and supplying the systems.
One of those military groups was the US Army at Huntsville. They were proposing to build a new booster called the Jupiter V that used several existing boosters to build a single rocket with a total of 1 million pound thrust. Meanwhile the Air Force was starting research on a 1 million pound thrust engine, which the Army was hoping to use to replace their cluster of smaller engines if that program went well. To further differentiate the new design from the older Jupiters, they re-named it Saturn, "the one after Jupiter".
The Air Force would have nothing of it. They had already limited the Army to short range _weapons_, which is why the Saturn was a "launcher", not a "missile" (although there was TABS, look it up). As soon as Saturn was being floated the AF was all over it, trying to get it cancelled. Yet the newly-formed ARPA saw merit, and overrode their objections, causing a major hissy-fit in the Pentagon.
So when NASA came along, everyone saw a way out -- hand Saturn to NASA. Now the Army would be out of the missile game, which would make the Air Force happy. ARPA would still get the spy-sat launcher they wanted, just built from a different budget. The rest is history.
The problem is that NASA was suddenly in the launcher business, for no reason other than political expediency. And they've tried to hold onto that business since then, in spite of the major problems it's caused for everyone involved. If all went well I wouldn't say this, but it hasn't, so I think the evidence is clear that they need to get out of the launcher biz.
Maury
The Apollo mission didn't create those industries. There was some technology developed in the course of the Apollo project that had broader applications. But, computers were already being developed, plastics were already being developed.
If you want to develop useful new technologies, wouldn't it make more sense to invest directly in research and development, rather than investing in a giant publicity stunt in the hopes that there might be some useful spin-offs?
Well, space research started in the late 50's, and Apollo was over and done by the very early 70's. Expecting a benefit in 10-15 years isn't exactly short-sided. Instead, we had the economic malaise of the period. The space program has always been about bread and circuses, so once the show is over all you have is nice memories of essentially meaningless stunts.
With all due respect to those great men, and their accomplishments, they are wrong.
First of all, everyone take a deep breath, pull up Google, and remember that the space shuttle program was cancelled SIX YEARS AGO by BUSH. That is not a decision by the Obama administration.
Second, the Constellation program was already years behind schedule, billions overbudget, and would still have resulted in years of us paying the Russians for a ride to the ISS, if they could have even worked out the problems and gotten a system flying. There can be no doubt whatsoever that Constellation would have resulted in a massively overpriced, low flight-rate system that was no better than the shuttle it replaced.
By giving private industry more incentives to proceed with their plans for commercial spacecraft (which NASA was previously competing with and blocking investment in), the Obama administration has made it vastly MORE likely that we will return to the Moon and space in general. This time, we will have a business reason to STAY THERE, instead of just going sightseeing.
I am overall not a fan of the Obama administration, but on this one thing, they have absolutely nailed it. This decision is good for the space industry, good for America, and good for the future of mankind.
Necron69
A few guys on Mars could do what the rovers have done in a couple of months.
Actually, I've read somewhere that the amount of geological study performed by both Spirit and Opportunity together (I think) would amount to a single Earth's geologist's (busy) working day - perhaps save for the distance traveled. Pity that I haven't saved that bookmark.
Ezekiel 23:20
And the chemical eventually chosen to replace those used in refrigeration, and also in many other things, was Freon, a chlorofluorocarbon. It was invented by Thomas Midgley, Jr.
He also was the bright person who realized that adding tetra-ethyl lead to gasoline made an engine stop knocking. He was responsible for the 'discovery' of, or the discovery of a use of, two of the most dangerous chemicals of the 20th century. Freon did great damage to the Ozone Layer. Humans living today have some 600 or so times more lead in their systems than those who lived before the use of tetra-ethyl lead as an additive in gasoline.
Truly, the world would be a better place if he had picked another career, like dentistry, if he had to be born at all.
The more you know!
Edward@Tomato - /home/Edward/ man woman
man: no entry for woman in the manual.
"Qua!?"
"Queen Isabella, that Chris Columbus fellow is asking for another audience. He's still trying to get funding for that foolhardy expedition to discover a shortcut to India by sailing WEST! I beg of you, please don't divert any funding from the domestic programs. Odds are it'll just be a waste of gold and the fool will just get himself killed."
Don't be so sure about that. For 2 years I was a single parent on welfare/food stamps going through school until graduation. Currently I work directly on Orion as a software engineer, my job likely being saved by the change in stance Obama has just (or at least will tomorrow) announced. And I've much more than paid back in taxes what I took out of the system.
Too much of this debate is focusing on whether the manned flight investments of the past were worthwhile. As if redirecting our efforts now would denigrate what Armstrong represented in the 60's. But that's not the question. The question is, given the initiatives now on the table for the future, both manned and unmanned, both in private industry and government, which are most promising and deserving of funding going forward? What is the mission compelling us to put so much of our limited S&T dollars into manned space flight going forward? There is none.
I never knew that NASA was around in 1907 when nakelite was developed. And computers only exist because of the Apollo mission? Darn. I am sure interested in those 200 others. Probably you will include The non-stick pan with Teflon as well which was invented in 1938.
And obviously all these 200 would not have been developed without the Apollo Mission and even more important, the money spend on those invention would not have been spend in any way and this would not have generated any taxes.
Hey, let's go to the stores and trow in the windows. That will be good for taxes as well as business.
Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
The post I replied to referred to unemployment benefits, made necessary because the economy tanked after the real estate bubble popped.
That you and several others assume I'm talking about bailing out stupid people with ARMs (when a slightly more logical misunderstanding would be to assume I was talking about the bank bailouts) says volumes about how your resentment is being misdirected on the poor for political ends.
What a waste. A great man that decided to not use his fame to push his own agenda and to become of all things a TEACHER! I mean really what good is that.
Actually I give him more credit because of that. This finally pushed him to take a stand. It is a shame really that he needed to.
See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
Neil Armstrong was on the Corporate Board of Thiokol, which became ATK Launch Systems Group. ATK Launch Systems Group was contracted to provide the solid fueled booster for Constellation. With its cancellation, ATK Launch Systems Group is losing value. Now ask yourself, how many shares of ATK Launch Systems Group does Neil Armstrong own from his time on the board? Somehow, I don't think Neil will be coming forth with the answer.
Support SETI@home
I don't know many proponents of the private sector that believe it is the solution for everything. The private sector is better at job creation, it's better at near-term efficiency for most ordinary endeavors. There are a very few things, however, where it is more economically feasible for government to do a thing, than it is for the private sector. For example, maintenance of a military, or building a highway system that spans a continent; these are things where government successfully drives industry. The space program, in terms of the kinds of energies (literal and figurative) needed to succeed at it, is one of those few things that government can establish better than can the private sector. That's just basic economics.
Besides, I thought liberals liked nuance, or is that out of fashion now?
"You realize the rockets used were based on Nazi technology to deliver payloads?"
Actually not really. When the captured they asked Von Braun how he developed the V2 his response was "ask Goddard". The V2 was a scaled up version of Goddard's last rockets right down the the graphite vanes controlled by a gyroscope.
The US put Goddard to work during WWII building rockets to help flying boats take off quicker...
See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
You shouldn't sign if you don't understand it.
In this thread: Only lawyers should buy houses.
It's a nice change from the Amerika so many of us were coming to know and hate.
So how is letting Iran develop nuclear weapons making the US stronger, a day after obama said China would back an embargo on Iran China said no and promptly sold two tankers of gasoline to Iran. obama is perceived as weak and other leaders do not respect him they know he does not have the stomach or the balls for the international power game. What has the US gotten out of all the appeasing China, Russia, Iran, NKorea, ... all still hate us and seem to take great pleasure in doing the opposite of what obama begs them to do.
Knowledge = Power
P= W/t
t=Money
Money = Work/Knowledge so the less you know the more you make
So should I tell all my classmates that the reason they can't find jobs when they graduate is that they bought houses they couldn't afford?
"The use-mention distinction" is not "enforced here."
Wow. You are so misguided, there's hardly space here to correct you, not that I would expect you to be swayed by reality, anyways.
To call the Constellation program "mostly-completed" is purest fantasy -- the paper designs are years behind schedule, simple matters of, say, building and testing the boosters, engines, capsules and control systems are left as an exercise for the reader. The fact that the concepts and designs are simply a rehash of Apollo makes the lack of performance on Constellation just that much sadder. Fact is, buying Soyuz rides to the ISS for years and years was already part of the plan, even if Constellation had stayed on schedule.
Second, the notion that ANY Administration would base the entire national space policy on who holds a single Congressional district is just delusional. Fiddling the budget between Ames, JPL, JSC, KSC, etc. sure, but axing a cornucopia of aerospace contracts like Constellation actually shows the political will to piss off a LOT of people in a lot of districts. I actually have to give the Administration points for recognizing that the project was way over-budget, way behind schedule, not very well thought out and giving it the axe. Then they turned around and increased NASA's budget for things that actually might prove to be useful (or at least more interesting than the "Hummerrrricaa!! FUCK YEAH!!" that putting men in LEO provides).
Calling someone else a "total scumbag" in a sentence where you've already mentioned Tom DeLay is grammatically incorrect. It's like saying "Sure, Stalin was bad, but Dave in Accounting is evil".
No folly is more costly than the folly of intolerant idealism. - Winston Churchill
Which part of the computer? How about "semiconductors."
The Apollo Guidance Computer was the first computer based on semiconductors rather than vacuum tubes. It was estimated that building the ACG consumed close to 100% of the world's semiconductor fabrication capacity while the Apollo Program was in operation.
Slashdot still doesnâ(TM)t support Unicode after it was added to the HTML standard in 1997.
Calling someone else a "total scumbag" in a sentence where you've already mentioned Tom DeLay is grammatically incorrect. It's like saying "Sure, Stalin was bad, but Dave in Accounting is evil".
To be fair, Dave in Accounting steals my lunch out of the office fridge every goddamn day, and Stalin never did that even once. So yeah, Dave is fucking evil.
I agree completely. Lately, I've heard many liberals push back the argument, "Your for smaller government, but do you support police and firemen?"
Its a misdirection play on their part. Sure I support the police and the firemen, of MY CITY! Federal tax dollars should not be spent on police or firemen. We have a federal system for a reason, local support for some government functions works much much better than federal support. The feds should get completely out of the education business. Its not mentioned in the constitution and therefore is the responsibility of the states. In fact the states have the most control, but the feds can't stop from sticking their noses into education at nearly every level.
NASA on the other hand is a national endeavor and is not something that can be done by the states.
All the scientists I know (myself included) would correctly indicate that the sun will not grow cold, but will, after exhausting its core hydrogen fuel, vastly increase its luminosity, and swell in size past the Earth's orbit, essentially vaporizing it. All this, in roughly 5 billion years.
Modern humans as a species are 0.0002 billion years old. Yes, that's three zeroes to the right of the decimal. Do you really believe that we'll care about a couple thousand years worth of exemplars of humanity after we've evolved 25,000 times further than since we separated from proto-human homonids? Will we even be humans at that point? Are there any other conceivable disasters our species or its descendants could suffer during those billions of years, which colonizing space could not prevent?
It's 'amazing' how athletic healthy people carrying M-16's and sticking together in large groups 'never' get picked out by rapists.
When people getting paid 360 K a year are giving people who get paid 50 K (or less) economic advice, is it any wonder the poorer people believe it uncritically? The people who showed some caution were encouraged to abandon it. Only the ones who were both really well informed and generally suspicious sorts failed to fall for the line. What those uninformed people were uninformed about included that most of the regulations protecting them were no longer in place. Would you get a second opinion for a doctor's visit? Maybe. Would you get a third, and a fourth, and check each doctor's entire practice history, school grades, and every credential you see on his wall?
As one of my co-workers pointed out, Predatory Lending aimed at the poorest includes interest rates above 36%. Just one person who takes out a loan they can't pay at 36% undoes the good 18 more responsible people do by saving, if the average savings account is only paying 2%. You can extend this to housing. People with the level of income to realistically become home owners can probably get 2.75 to 3.5% by using CDs and similar instruments, so it's not as bad as the case of poorer people with only small savings possible, but still... When an adjustable rate mortgage hits 15% (as some did), one person's bad decision outweighs four or five good decisions in terms of overall economic effects.
You're not demanding that the average person become better informed, you are demanding that the bottom 10 to 20% of the demographic stop making the mistakes the rest of us are now paying for. Do I really need to show you why that's not going to happen? Meanwhile, some of us are demanding the rules be changed so the system can't make record profits from targeting the stupidest (or at least the least informed). We're blaming the people who cooked the rulebooks as much more guilty than the people at the bottom. There's always someone dumb enough to buy the Brooklyn Bridge - you will never eliminate the last potential sucker. We can still create proper rules against the guy trying to sell them the bridge, and enforce them.
Who is John Cabal?
Armstrong is also an engineer and served on the Challenger shuttle accident investigation board. Up till now he has stayed clear of politics and has been on the board of directors of many companies so yes he is also a business person.
Lynn Swann, Nancy Reagan, Michael Jordan, and Lance Armstrong are or have been on the board of directors for various companies completely unrelated to their core competencies. Look up the concept of the celebrity director on a board. Not to say that Neil Armstrong is necessarily bad, but it also doesn't mean he's any good.
Jim Lovell might have a business degree, but quite frankly, I'd need to know more before ascribing him business savvy.
Frankly these man have nothing to gain at this time. They have all done what a very select few people have done. They are all pretty much set for the rest of their lives so they don't need any more money. To dismiss them I think is the height of arrogance.
Conversely, to respect them in matters in which they have no experience is the height of hero worship. The fact that I'm questioning their ability to properly assess a business decision has no impact on their past achievements - I'm sure we can agree on that. We can listen to them, sure. But their arguments have to stand on their own merit. And from what I understand of the Constellation program, it was a financial disaster and an engineering nightmare. If these astronauts want to disagree, I'm all ears. But they better say something more convincing than "You're wrong".
And to make matter worse President Obama isn't saving money by killing the Ares he is changing it from a program with at some goals to a welfare program!
The Constellation program was already a welfare program. Or did you miss the argument with which Mark Udall (senator from Colorado) and Nelson (senator from Florida) want to preserve the Constellation program? That's right, jobs. The only question is whether the new program actually has a chance to produce something useful without sucking up about 20% of NASA's budget.
So to all those that willing to dismiss these three well educated, extremely brillant, and wise men I just want you to think about it long and hard.
Again, hero worship. Well educated depends on more than a degree, general brilliance is not necessary to pilot a craft and strapping yourself to an exploding bomb to go somewhere where no one has gone before "just because" would certainly seem the exact opposite of wisdom. Could they still be all three things? Sure. But being a commander on a lunar mission does not necessarily mean any of them.
Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
Well, maybe if he hadn't invented Freon, the refrigerators could have continued to use SO2, so, maybe more people would have died because of leaking fridges, but hey, the precious ozone layer would be saved.
It's great when you already know that Freon causes damage to Ozone or the danger of tetra-ethyl lead, but at the time they were the best solutions to the problems.
Do you also wish that coal powered steam engine was never invented, so we could just use nuclear power instead of pumping so much CO2 to the atmosphere in all those years when coal was the primary or even the only fuel for trains, factories etc.
Also...
Humans living today have some 600 or so times more lead in their systems than those who lived before the use of tetra-ethyl lead as an additive in gasoline.
And... what problems does the higher lead concentration do? At least it does not seem to be fatal...
Obama has a very clear plan. It goes like this:
1.Stimulate economy with massive government spending in 09-10.
2.Slash government budget in 2011. (this includes NASA funding)
3.Cross fingers that step 1 works.
4. Increased tax revenues caused by step 1 and spending cuts from step 2 yield budget surplus at then end of 2011.
5. Say, "See, I balanced the budget!" in 2012.
6. Get reelected in 2012.
One of our competitors trademarked the term "hypothesis". From now on, we will call them "boneheaded ideas".
So, here's something. Every financial advisor I've talked to said that any sort of fancy adjustable rate mortgage is/was a horrible idea. So did most of the articles I read online. The only people saying that it's a great idea? The people selling them.
Stop comparing mortgage brokers to doctors and start comparing them to used car salesmen, which is a much more similar career path. Should we still be expecting people to take their advice uncritically?
"Jim Lovell might have a business degree, but quite frankly, I'd need to know more before ascribing him business savvy."
A degree from Harvard. You must at least say that he has a good business education.
"The fact that I'm questioning their ability to properly assess a business decision has no impact on their past achievements - I'm sure we can agree on that."
You are so willing to support this and keep throwing hero worship into it let me ask you.
Obama has zero business, economic, and engineering experience and or education. All there of these men have multiple degrees in engineering and I am pretty sure all of them have at least one in Aerospace engineering. Which when judging this program I think is very valid.
Even without comment form these men the current plan sounds like a giant waste to me.
Keep building the Orion but not the launch vehicle so we can use it for a lifeboat on the space station? Really? Isn't that what the Soyuz is used for now?
So we pay but get no capability.
He wants to keep spending money on a new heavy lift system but no mission requirement!
So no hero worship from me. These men make a good point and I do respect their judgment based on there education and life experience. Frankly if you compare their life experience and education to the Presidents they on average are as well or better educated. Jim Lovell has more degrees than President Obama. They have more business experience of which President Obama has none. And a lot more education and experience in engineering than President Obama has. If anything I would say your acceptance of President Obama's space plan is based on hero worship more so my feelings that it is a disaster.
See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
He is presenting this plan as his own but of course he has advisers but who? What are they qualifications. It is silly to assume that the quality of an unknown source is it not? As to your two year old source of problems.
"Both vehicles have a history of weight issues;"
Every air and space craft does. Including the Apollo and LEM.
"Excessive vibration during launch threatens system design;"
That was one of the reasons for flight testing.
" Uncertainty about how flight characteristics will be impacted by a fifth segment added to the Ares I launch vehicle;"
Flight testing but it has been computer modeled. Uncertainty exists until testing in all things. Classic straw man as you like to say.
"Ares I upper stage essentially requires development of a new engine;"
No it is a development of the J2 that was flown on the Saturn family as a second stage of the Ib and the 3rd stage of the V. Also a restartable cryogenic upper stage engine is a mature technology. The J2 from the Saturn line and the Centar that has been flying since the 60s and is still flying today are examples.
"No industry capability currently exists for producing the kind of heat shields that the Orion will need for protecting the crew exploration vehicle when it reenters Earth's atmosphere; "
Because they have not built any for a while. Yea not exactly a problem. Did you expect to find on off the shelf heatshield?
"Existing test facilities are insufficient for testing Ares I's new engine, for replicating the engine's vibration and acoustic environment, and for testing the thermal protection system for the Orion vehicle."
This is also an infrastructure problem. It will not go away
The last two must not be any problem at all because they will impact Obama's current plan as well.
Also with Obama's current plan we will have to develop a service module that can remain in space in cold storage for x months and be 100% reliable if needed. Which also has never been done and we lack the facilities to test.
And the Atlas V and or the Delta 4 have never been flown with a Orion like payload so there is uncertainty there.
What hard data to you have that the problems have gotten worse? If you have it present it because that article's list was full of "unknowns" and which could maybe be a problem or not.
So far you have presented no hard data and no named experts that you may have advised President Obama and that article which is two years out of date and frankly a fluff piece.
So why is this a good plan? What do we gain? We save no money because NASA's budget is supposed to go up. We gain no capability that I see. And are there any new hard goals of more fluffy in the future stuff?
See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
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