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Fair Use Generates $4.7 Trillion For US Economy

Hugh Pickens writes "The Hill spotlights a study released by the Computer & Communications Industry Association, which concludes that companies relying on fair use generate $4.7 trillion in revenue to the US economy every year. The report claims that fair use — an exception to the copyright law that allows limited use of copyrighted materials — is crucial to innovation. It adds that employment in fair use industries grew from 16.9 million in 2002 to 17.5 million in 2007 and one out of eight US workers is employed by a company benefiting from protections provided by fair use (PDF). Rep. Zoe Lofgren (D-CA) says the reasonable fair use of content needs to be preserved; otherwise, content owners will control access to movies, music, and art that will no longer be available for schools, research, or web browsing. Lofgren tied the copyright issue with the question of net neutrality. Without net neutrality 'content owners will completely control and lock down content. We're going to be sorry characters when we actually don't see fair use rights on the Web,' says Lofgren. 'If we allow our freedom to be taken for commercial purposes, we will have some explaining to do to our founding fathers and those who died for our freedom.'"

160 comments

  1. What a Stupid and Wrong Title by eldavojohn · · Score: 4, Informative

    Fair Use Generates $4.7 Trillion For US Economy

    Wrong, from the article

    Companies that rely on fair use generate $4.7 trillion in revenue, according to a study released today by the Computer & Communications Industry Association.

    See the difference? Fair use generates a third of our GDP? Please, I'm not stupid.

    --
    My work here is dung.
    1. Re:What a Stupid and Wrong Title by elwinc · · Score: 2, Funny
      You beat me to it.

      I will point out that the $4.7 trillion figure sounds as exaggerated as the loss numbers claimed the RIAA.

      Exaggerate? I don't know the meaning of the word!

      --
      --- Often in error; never in doubt!
    2. Re:What a Stupid and Wrong Title by Rogerborg · · Score: 4, Funny

      You're right. This kind of sloppy hyperbole is precisely HITLER STRANGLING A KITTEN worse than the numbers that the xxAA pull out of their elbows during their lobbying rounds.

      --
      If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
    3. Re:What a Stupid and Wrong Title by bunratty · · Score: 2, Funny

      How dare you introduce facts into the discussion! I dream of a world where we have no copyright and 100% of our GDP is generated by unfettered use of content. Then get rid of patents and 200% of our GDP can be generated by freely sharing information!

      --
      What a fool believes, he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.
    4. Re:What a Stupid and Wrong Title by infalliable · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It is exaggerated and as all "effect on the economy" estimations, it is wildly dependent on the assumptions. But it uses a methodology similar to what is known of the MPAA/RIAA methodology. The MPAA/RIAA are not real forthcoming with how they came up with their numbers though, while at least this study does list out where all the numbers came from. Even the GAO criticized the MPAA/RIAA funded studies as being entirely secretive with no way of verifying the results.

      The important take home is that IP/copyright exceptions matter a great deal to people as does what is covered by copyright/IP law

    5. Re:What a Stupid and Wrong Title by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      See the difference? Fair use generates a third of our GDP? Please, I'm not stupid.

      Perhaps you are.

    6. Re:What a Stupid and Wrong Title by commodore64_love · · Score: 4, Insightful

      When dealing with an intractable foe, I see nothing wrong with adopting their tactics. RIAA exaggerates their numbers? Well then exaggerate your numbers too. RIAA sends-out talking points to Congresscritters with their "piracy costs us 5 trillion a year!" stats? Then send out YOUR talking point that says the exact opposite: "Fair use generate 5 trillion a year in revenue!"

      If the enemy cheats, then you need to cheat too, else you might as well just accept defeat. Nice guys finish last.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    7. Re:What a Stupid and Wrong Title by MrNaz · · Score: 2, Insightful

      No, the important take home is that *all* political agendas need to be audited. The moment you start giving a free ride to politicians just because you agree with their cause is the moment you open the floodgates to total political anarchy.

      Not that it matters, really. The floodgates have been open for a while already.

      --
      I hate printers.
    8. Re:What a Stupid and Wrong Title by natehoy · · Score: 1

      as exaggerated as the loss numbers claimed the RIAA.

      I think that's rather the point. RIAA claims that piracy costs the US economy Dr. Evil Voice:One Million Billion Dollars, so people who depend on fair use provisions need to inflate their numbers by the same amount and claim that fair use allowances benefit the US by an equally inflated amount, so the argument balances.

      As long as both groups are using equally-inflated numbers, the effect evens out. :)

      --
      "This post contains words, known to the State of California to cause thought. Wash brain thoroughly after reading."
    9. Re:What a Stupid and Wrong Title by Junior+J.+Junior+III · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Also, this will be the MAFAA's point of contention. Everyman's "fair use" is the MAFIAA's "copytheft". Hence, that $$$ these companies are deriving from fair use rightfully belongs in the MAFAA's coffers.

      It's not enough to argue that fair use is important because it generates value in the economy. We have to argue that fair use is indeed fair, and that certain provisions in copyright law are unfair, ridiculous, unenforceable, and impose an undue burden on all of us.

      --
      You see? You see? Your stupid minds! Stupid! Stupid!
    10. Re:What a Stupid and Wrong Title by infalliable · · Score: 0, Redundant

      No, the important take home is that *all* political agendas need to be audited. The moment you start giving a free ride to politicians just because you agree with their cause is the moment you open the floodgates to total political anarchy.

      Not that it matters, really. The floodgates have been open for a while already.

      Ok, that is a good take home also. ;)

    11. Re:What a Stupid and Wrong Title by Pharmboy · · Score: 1

      As long as both groups are using equally-inflated numbers, the effect evens out. :)

      So the net loss to the music industry because of piracy is about $132 then?

      --
      Tequila: It's not just for breakfast anymore!
    12. Re:What a Stupid and Wrong Title by Hijacked+Public · · Score: 1

      Not that it matters, really. The floodgates have been open for a while already.

      The moment you start giving a free ride to apathy just because you disagree with a decision you open the floodgates to total apathy anarchy.

      Not that it matters, really. The floodgates have been open for a while already.

      --
      "Sacrifice for the good of The State" - The State
    13. Re:What a Stupid and Wrong Title by natehoy · · Score: 2, Informative

      So the net loss to the music industry because of piracy is about[...]

      No, the net loss to the US economy is. RIAA still lost trillions in revenues, but other sectors of the economy generated trillions in revenues, so as far as the economy as a whole works out it's just about break-even.

      [...]$132 then?

      Or maybe it's a gain of $32.57, depending on whether Bob went out and bought that $164.57 in albums he's been talking about lately. I'll have to ask him later.

      --
      "This post contains words, known to the State of California to cause thought. Wash brain thoroughly after reading."
    14. Re:What a Stupid and Wrong Title by russotto · · Score: 1

      I will point out that the $4.7 trillion figure sounds as exaggerated as the loss numbers claimed the RIAA.

      So? They can make up numbers, we can make up numbers. BTW, did you know a recent Oomain Society study showed that the RIAA was responsible for the torture and mutilation of up to 5000 puppies every day in 2009?

    15. Re:What a Stupid and Wrong Title by GooberToo · · Score: 1

      Hence, that $$$ these companies are deriving from

      That argument assumes they don't make the distinction between piracy and fair use. There is a huge difference. Most pirates don't make such distinctions and assume theft is covered by fair use. It is not.

    16. Re:What a Stupid and Wrong Title by davester666 · · Score: 1

      The copyright holders demand their cut for helping these companies generate $4.7 trillion, as they are sure their music, video, text, pictures, etc are central to the generation of that money.

      They expect a cashiers cheque in the amount of $4.699 trillion by no later than 4/30/2010 or they will have to sue for triple damages, and they have no desire to wreck the economy just for their own personal gain. A wire transfer is also acceptable. Personal cheques are expressly forbidden, and it's too late to start counting the money if you try to pay in cash.

      --
      Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
    17. Re:What a Stupid and Wrong Title by DelShalDar · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It's also interesting to note that these companies, at least the companies the MPAA represents, keep claiming to operate at an effective net loss. Hollywood Accounting is notorious for claiming negative net profits on films that cost tens of millions of dollars to make and distribute, and generate hundreds of millions to billions of dollars in gross income. This is why anyone wanting a percentage of a movie's income as payment go after gross profits instead of net profits, otherwise they wouldn't ever get paid. Why, then, do these same companies decry that they're losing money due to fair-use/piracy/etc.? They're already losing any money they may have generated by being in business and operating as they do in the first place. So, unless they're lying about their actual costs (which is pretty much a given when considering the money they're willing and able to throw around) then we have to assume that any "losses" they complain about are internal to their infrastructure and business models, and not from any external factor.

    18. Re:What a Stupid and Wrong Title by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When dealing with an intractable foe, I see nothing wrong with adopting their tactics. RIAA exaggerates their numbers? Well then exaggerate your numbers too. RIAA sends-out talking points to Congresscritters with their "piracy costs us 5 trillion a year!" stats? Then send out YOUR talking point that says the exact opposite: "Fair use generate 5 trillion a year in revenue!"

      If the enemy cheats, then you need to cheat too, else you might as well just accept defeat. Nice guys finish last.

      Real life does not work like an episode of 24.

    19. Re:What a Stupid and Wrong Title by Junior+J.+Junior+III · · Score: 1

      Hence, that $$$ these companies are deriving from

      That argument assumes they don't make the distinction between piracy and fair use. There is a huge difference. Most pirates don't make such distinctions and assume theft is covered by fair use. It is not.

      Correct. But it is also true that many takedown notices and C&D's are thrown at legitimate fair use of copyrighted material. MAFIAA lawyers don't really appear to discriminate between fair use and piracy.

      --
      You see? You see? Your stupid minds! Stupid! Stupid!
    20. Re:What a Stupid and Wrong Title by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Humans that rely on water generate 100% of revenue

    21. Re:What a Stupid and Wrong Title by HungryHobo · · Score: 1

      Some notable examples:

      Forrest Gump
      Babylon 5("if a set on a WB movie burns down in Botswana, they can charge it against B5's profits")
      Return of the Jedi

    22. Re:What a Stupid and Wrong Title by calmofthestorm · · Score: 1

      So what? Copyright infringement costs the US economy over 9000 times that number every nanosecond.

      --
      93rd rule of Slashdot: No matter how obvious my sarcasm is, my comment will be taken seriously by someone.
    23. Re:What a Stupid and Wrong Title by thePowerOfGrayskull · · Score: 1

      For needlessly and willfully invoking Godwin's Law, you are hereby sentenced to -1 Offtopic

      Sentence commuted to +5 funny for amusing behavior.

    24. Re:What a Stupid and Wrong Title by SecurityGuy · · Score: 1

      That's nothing. Industries that use chairs generate over $12 trillion annually! Fair Use ain't got nothing on chairs.

    25. Re:What a Stupid and Wrong Title by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      this is anti-copyright kdawson spam. You wanted intelligent discussion? That leaves slashdot every time one of the freetards posts crap like this.

    26. Re:What a Stupid and Wrong Title by purpledinoz · · Score: 1

      OMG, if fair use generates $4.7 trillion, imagine what the record companies are LOSING due to piracy. It must be in the $100's of trillions! I thought this financial crisis was due to lax lending to people who couldn't afford it, but now it's clear that piracy is the culprit! If we all stop pirating, our GDP will shoot up 10x!

    27. Re:What a Stupid and Wrong Title by GooberToo · · Score: 1

      That's because theft is so rampant they have little choice but to take the shotgun route.

      Do we really still need to pretend that the majority of file sharing isn't illegal? We all know it is.

    28. Re:What a Stupid and Wrong Title by Junior+J.+Junior+III · · Score: 1

      Given that everything is automatically and implicitly copyrighted the moment it is committed to a storage medium, by whoever authored it, you're absolutely right. Nearly all file copy operations are in violation of copyright law.

      On P2P networks, most certainly, 99% of what's available AND what is actually being transferred is not merely copyrighted, but commercially available product. And sharing that stuff for free does hurt the business model of selling it, without question.

      The thing is, technology has progressed to the point where that business model is no longer viable, without onerous and draconian law enforcement. It's about ten years past time to see the writing on the wall, and change the business model, or go out of business and find another line of work.

      Moreover, it's time for the laws to be rewritten so that they make sense for the realities of the present day and forseeable future market.

      The problem with that is that those who profited greatly by the old order are not going to let go of their empires willingly, and will fight tooth and nail to preserve them, even at the expense of destroying culture.

      They don't want to have to imagine, innovate, and work out new ways of doing business. They want their old business model to be preserved by legal fiat for all eternity.

      Technologies and industries can and do become obsolete. Adapt or die is how business works. I'm not here provide free business consulting, but when your business model hinges upon restricting everyone else's rights to the point where they no longer have them anymore, that's a real problem.

      Rather than selling copies on physical media, and rather than selling downloads, they could figure out a business model that allows them to make money by leveraging freely available, freely distributable content.

      We can streamline the industry greatly by eliminating a vast amount of middlemen, and probably we don't really need publishers anymore. You don't need an industry when you can do everything yourself out of your bedroom. Charge for performances and appearances. Use the recording for promotion.

      The industry will shrink, and that's a good thing, because at present it's bloated. They're dinosaurs taking their last gasps, and they don't care who their death rattle crushes. I guess I don't blame them, really. But that doesn't mean I have any sympathy for them. They could have seen things coming and adapted and continued to be relevant and provide useful services that people need. They chose instead not to.

      --
      You see? You see? Your stupid minds! Stupid! Stupid!
  2. Preserve it? Hell, Let's Define It! by eldavojohn · · Score: 4, Informative

    the reasonable fair use of content needs to be preserved

    Would you care to define the boundaries of fair use for me? How much a song can I use non-commercially in one instance (not like a repeated sample) without fear of repercussion or litigation from the copyright holder? Because even though some people have established "safe harbor" and guidelines, they don't seem to be officially codified yet. I uploaded some song samples on Wikipedia for my favorite albums and the rules were 10% of the length of a song or 30 seconds, whichever is shorter. And, honestly, there's no law that completely and irrefutably protects this as fair use. Then there are the people that claim a full album is a "work" and therefore 10% of that (which could be a whole song) is fair use. I don't know where it starts and stops ... with movies it seems like nothing goes while with songs it seems you can get away with a little more. So hazy and ill defined, how can you rely on something like that for income when every step is potential litigation?

    I'm all for preserving it so long as you can define what exactly it is that you are preserving.

    --
    My work here is dung.
  3. Be careful what you wish for by ugen · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The vehemently anti-copyright stance of Slashdot is, in my view, not entirely thought through. Remember - GPL (or any other software license) is a *copyright*, protected and upheld by the same laws that protect music distributors and the like. From the point of view of the law MPAA, RIAA and FSF aren't really that different (yes, some do it for money, while others for fame, "principles" and/or a bit less money). Undermining copyright protections will not be "selective", though you may wish it were. If music or movies become trivial to copy against wishes of their authors or "copyright holders", so will the software under GPL.

    Just something for you to think about.

    1. Re:Be careful what you wish for by Rogerborg · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Note that the FSF view the GPL as a necessary evil on the road to destroying all software copyrights entirely. This isn't hyperbole, or my opinion: read Stallman's book, particularly Chapter 4.

      --
      If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
    2. Re:Be careful what you wish for by ledow · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I think you're missing the point. It's not about anti-copyright, because of the reasons you describe. It's about changing the goalposts all the time - fair use has been written in law for decades / centuries. Suddenly, companies want to clamp down, pretend it doesn't exist, stop you using your "fair use" rights at all, making "fair use" almost impossible through DRM schemes etc. And then copyright extension terms gets extended *again*, and *again* until nothing ever hits the public domain at all. That's *not* what copyright was about, and it's *not* the stated purpose as written in every historical law on copyright. It's supposed to be a temporary arrangement to allow the authors to prevent plagiarism for a reasonable time in order for them to capitalise on their work, and then to ultimately let the public benefit from "archaic" works.

      The message was lost. But even those people who license under the GPL release that when their copyright expires (if it *ever* does), their works may revert to the public domain (I don't know if anyone's looked at the copyright expiration situation but it's very difficult given the average development history of popular GPL software). At the rate things are going, that's going to be never.

      Most people *aren't* anti-copyright. They actually want the laws to be enforced as written and for the law to stay static. Hell, most Disney stuff, The Beatles, etc. should have expired into the public domain *YEARS* ago.

      The only significant works that I know where you can get public domain copies of them are the books on things like Project Gutenburg (and we're talking still-money-making stuff like the original Beatrix Potter illustrations and novels etc. and the rights-holders are still making a killing... you just have to be sure that you took the images from the *original* books, not from the modern (re-copyrighted) reprints). Music, software, video, where's the public domain stuff now?

    3. Re:Be careful what you wish for by AnonymousClown · · Score: 1
      It already is trivial to copy GPL software. And if fair use is preserved, I don't see how it hurts GPL or the **AAs, for that matter - except in the eyes of paranoid lawyers.

      The only problem that the GPL software has run into is when folks have marketed GPL software or parts of it as their own without making their software GPL compliant; which isn't affected by fair use - it's an outright violation.

      I don't understand your point, I guess.

      --
      RIP America

      July 4, 1776 - September 11, 2001

    4. Re:Be careful what you wish for by ugen · · Score: 1

      new Mickey Mouse cartoons are pumped out by Disney all the time. by the same token, if we expect Mickey Mouse to "expire" a certain number of years from initial creation, so will the Linux kernel and once that happens - all of it, no matter what new development is happening, will be in public domain.

      Fine with me, I license my code under BSD license when I have to.

    5. Re:Be careful what you wish for by dylan_- · · Score: 1

      The vehemently anti-copyright stance of Slashdot is, in my view, not entirely thought through.

      Slashdot is made up of many different people, with different views and therefore doesn't have a vehemently anti-copyright stance. However I, personally, do.

      Remember - GPL (or any other software license) is a *copyright*, protected and upheld by the same laws that protect music distributors and the like.

      Yes, I know. You're not the first person to raise this, and it's a fairly obvious objection.

      Personally, as long as copyright exists, I'm quite happy to see it subverted by the GPL. However, I'd gladly see the GPL go if it meant that copyright went with it.

      Does that answer your point?

      --
      Igor Presnyakov stole my hat
    6. Re:Be careful what you wish for by ugen · · Score: 1

      My point needs no answer :) It is simply an observation.

      That said, I would like this thread to be stored for posterity. One day, when copyright is abolished and private companies are free to take all the open source code they want, put it in proprietary software and resell it - I would be interested in revisiting the topic ;) (Though none of us will probably live that long)

    7. Re:Be careful what you wish for by tbannist · · Score: 3, Insightful

      No, it's the pro-copyright stance of many people that has not been entirely thought through. Copyrights are, at best, a necessary evil. The exist to create an incentive to create new works of art and to allow artists to work professionally on their art. They have been corrupted by corporate interests to make a perpetual money machine where new art is suppressed to keep the old art profitable. That runs exactly opposite to the reasons for copyright existing in the first place.

      I don't think the possible consequence that if you make something truly great your great-grandchildren will never have to work a day in their life is really a very good incentive. I doubt that's what motivates many, if any, artists.

      --
      Fanatically anti-fanatical
    8. Re:Be careful what you wish for by commodore64_love · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Also note that not all of us agree with your goal of destroying copyright. Speaking for myself, I merely want to limit it to its original 14-year-lifespan with the possibility of ONE renewal of that license by the original creator (see US Copyright Act of 1790). i.e. I think everything pre-1980 should be public domain.

      Of course Stallman and the rest always have the right to NOT copyright their creations. They have the right to release it to the public domain for the benefit of all.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    9. Re:Be careful what you wish for by commodore64_love · · Score: 3, Informative

      Uh..... NEW Mickey Mouse cartoons are copyrighted. Old cartoons (like Steamboat Willie) under the previous law would be public domain by now, and therefore you could watch it anytime you felt like it.

      Similarly Linux kernal 1 might very well be public domain by now, but the current Kernal 10 (or wherever we're at) would still be copyrighted.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    10. Re:Be careful what you wish for by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "all of it, no matter what new development is happening, will be in public domain."

      You sure? Why would reprints of books, with new illustrations and small revamped improvements / preface etc., have a new copyright?

      IANAL, but first thing to go would be Linux kernel aka 1992, not the entirety of Linux.

      To continue this copyright-sherade seems like total madness, but I guess it generates a lot of revenue to lawyers who love to ruin people's lives..

    11. Re:Be careful what you wish for by somersault · · Score: 1

      Presumably the original Mickey Mouse character design should be in the public domain. And older Linux kernels will be eventually too.

      I'm interested - what is your problem with older versions of Linux becoming free of restrictions?

      --
      which is totally what she said
    12. Re:Be careful what you wish for by icebraining · · Score: 2, Informative

      But the FSF wish is that any code written would be open source, and in that case the differences between the GPL and the BSD licenses wouldn't exist. Imagine a world where any software buyer would demand the code to be released. The GPL would have no reason to exist.

    13. Re:Be careful what you wish for by Rogerborg · · Score: 1

      "my" goal of destroying copyright? Sir, I shower quite regularly.

      --
      If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
    14. Re:Be careful what you wish for by icebraining · · Score: 1

      But along with the abolition of copyright, they also defend the abolition of proprietary software. And remember, it doesn't have to be government mandated; if for example companies and states start only buying OSS software (or defining that term in contracts with software development companies), proprietary software would virtually disappear.

    15. Re:Be careful what you wish for by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      if we expect Mickey Mouse to "expire" a certain number of years from initial creation, so will the Linux kernel and once that happens - all of it, no matter what new development is happening, will be in public domain.

      That's not how it works, you will have copyright on a patch you release tomorrow regardless of the copyright status of the software you are patching. Similarly, Disney is welcome to the copyright on a MM image they release tomorrow, but not on the ones that should already be in the public domain.

      It will be functionally very similar to when BSD licensed software is released with GPL'd modifications. I personally would see no problem with all versions older than 14 years being in the public domain.

    16. Re:Be careful what you wish for by monkeythug · · Score: 1

      Without copyright all software could be copied with impunity - so it would be impossible to sell proprietary software.

      This is for the same reason that although the FSF is fine with people selling GPL software, in practice this is not possible - in a free market where every recipient can resell copies, the price rapidly drops to zero.

      In a non-copyright world all software authors would have to adopt the opensource business models of selling
      support and services if they wanted to profit from their creations.

      --
      Don't you wish you hadn't wasted 3 seconds of your life reading this sig?
    17. Re:Be careful what you wish for by ugen · · Score: 1

      :) And abolition of private property too. I know, I am from one of those places :) We are talking about what's possible (perhaps remotely), not communist utopias.

    18. Re:Be careful what you wish for by Dragonslicer · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Presumably the original Mickey Mouse character design should be in the public domain.

      Disney could probably claim the character name and image as trademarks, which don't expire. Even if that isn't the case now, I personally would be okay with allowing it in exchange for shorter copyright terms. You wouldn't be able to create new cartoons and market them as Mickey Mouse, but you can freely watch and share Mickey Mouse cartoons that Disney made 50 years ago.

    19. Re:Be careful what you wish for by bws111 · · Score: 1

      What does copyright have to do with demanding the source code? Absolutely nothing. I am drinking a non-copyrighted class of Coke right now - does that somehow imply that Coke must give me the recipe? If the purpose of the GPL is to make sure that the source stays open, copyright MUST exist.

    20. Re:Be careful what you wish for by orasio · · Score: 1

      Also note that not all of us agree with your goal of destroying copyright. Speaking for myself, I merely want to limit it to its original 14-year-lifespan with the possibility of ONE renewal of that license by the original creator (see US Copyright Act of 1790). i.e. I think everything pre-1980 should be public domain.

      Of course Stallman and the rest always have the right to NOT copyright their creations. They have the right to release it to the public domain for the benefit of all.

      Duh.
      The GPL gives _users_ even more than public domain (patent protection, for instance, in the case of the GPLv3). Only distributors would benefit from public domain, and they are not the subject of free software, users are. Of course, in a world without software copyrights it would be useful to just release to the public domain, but in the world we live now, your works could be repackaged against users.

      The GPL is a fence around a copyleft playground, that even guards you against other menaces. You can have our software, but you have to be nice to others, too.

    21. Re:Be careful what you wish for by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      > The vehemently anti-copyright stance of Slashdot is, in my view, not entirely thought through.

      Mindless insults.

      The "anti-copyright stance" here at Slashdot is mostly bourne of objecting to things that have no real consequence being turned into life shattering events.

      It's more like "tort reform" for media moguls.

      The law is already badly out of balance only being recently pushed that way by corporate interests.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    22. Re:Be careful what you wish for by Artifakt · · Score: 1

      New copyright on revamped works is limited to the changes. Anyone can make their own copy of the original work. I can go reprint Tarzan of the Apes based on the original edition or a manuscript, and I can write my own preface to my edition, paint my own cover art and so on (actually, I'm not polymath enough to do all that, so presumably I'd hire some people). What I can't copy legally are the new parts of a competitor's edition.

      --
      Who is John Cabal?
    23. Re:Be careful what you wish for by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      Old Linux kernels being exploitable by Microsoft is a small price to pay to prevent the RIAA from suing housewives over 30 year old pop songs.

      Although the first kernel won't be forced PD under the old regime until 2019.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    24. Re:Be careful what you wish for by dylan_- · · Score: 1

      My point needs no answer :) It is simply an observation.

      Well, you seemed to think there was a conflict between supporting the GPL and dismissing copyright. I hope I've explained how you can be in favour of both.

      One day, when copyright is abolished and private companies are free to take all the open source code they want, put it in proprietary software and resell it - I would be interested in revisiting the topic ;)

      I would suggest that the existence of the BSDs shows that Free software can exist without the restrictions of the GPL. Also, the motivation for keeping the source code hidden is greatly reduced if there is no copyright on the software to begin with.

      --
      Igor Presnyakov stole my hat
    25. Re:Be careful what you wish for by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > The vehemently anti-copyright stance of Slashdot is, in my view, not entirely thought through.

      Mindless insults.

      So, someone having thought through an idea enough that they can see multiple sides to the story and saying that someone else might not have explored all sides of the issue is a "mindless insult"?

      I just "love" arrogance. You display it with vigor.

    26. Re:Be careful what you wish for by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Without copyright, the GPL couldn't be enforced, and proprietary vendors have no method to prevent reverse engineering and proliferation of software. The GPL is dependent upon copyright, but free software isn't. The Debian project, for example, can still share the source code they already have, and businesses that see free software as a better development method can still contribute. What's more is that a business that just sells software would no longer be viable, so proprietary vendors lose a lot while free vendors don't lose much.

    27. Re:Be careful what you wish for by MobyDisk · · Score: 1

      It sounds like you are pro-copyright, just not in favor of the United States current implementation of copyright.

    28. Re:Be careful what you wish for by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Copyright should always die with it's creator. it's not like any of the money earned from copyright after death of the artist is going to stimulate the deceased artist to produce more work, he's effing dead, he ain't producing anything ever again. Giving copyright to heirs is like being born into nobility, it doesn't belong in this time and age.

    29. Re:Be careful what you wish for by icebraining · · Score: 1

      Wrong analogy.

      The purpose of keeping the Coke recipe closed is to prevent people from producing cokes that taste the same. If Coke could be copied without accessing the recipe (like software can), why would it matter if the recipe is open or closed? The price would drop to the floor anyway.

    30. Re:Be careful what you wish for by kz45 · · Score: 1

      "Of course, in a world without software copyrights it would be useful to just release to the public domain, but in the world we live now, your works could be repackaged against users."

      How would this not happen without copyrights?

      Unless there were specific laws against it, if there were no copyrights, you would see free software (which now has no protection) released as binaries only. Sure, the user could copy and share it..but they wouldn't have the source, which is the original goal of the GNU.

      In addition to this, it would make it very easy for bigger companies to steal ideas and products from smaller companies (that don't have the resources). It would push many more people to secrecy than ever before and we would start seeing more SAS (software as a service).

    31. Re:Be careful what you wish for by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You really think that your coke recipe isn't copyrighted?

    32. Re:Be careful what you wish for by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If Microsoft wants to sell a proprietary fork of the Linux 0.90 kernel, who cares? It would be amusing to watch them try to compete with Linux 2.6. The only way they'd sell it would be to make deals with OEMs to have it preloaded on new computers. What are the chances of tha-- why's everyone looking at me funny?

    33. Re:Be careful what you wish for by icebraining · · Score: 1

      This has nothing to do with communism. Oracle, IBM, Novell, Red Hat, Google are examples of pure capitalist companies, and yet they all sell many OSS products. Don't mix the two.

      What is *not* capitalistic are the current proprietary software products. In a true capitalistic system, the price of a good is defined by supply and demand. Since an increase in supply causes the equilibrium price to decrease, what should happen when the supply is infinite, like in the case of the product "copy of Windows"? The price should drop to almost nothing.

      OSS is *more* capitalist because it defined the value of each copy as it should be based on supply and demand (effectively 0) and relies on other products (services, for example) where the price is real.

    34. Re:Be careful what you wish for by kz45 · · Score: 1

      "In a non-copyright world all software authors would have to adopt the opensource business models of selling
      support and services if they wanted to profit from their creations."

      It would pretty much push all of the little guys out of the software market, since support and services generally doesn't work well with a small amount of employees.

      The difference is that right now, businesses have the freedom to choose: They can go with the open source way of business or the proprietary one. In this new world of no copyrights, businesses have no choice. They will be forced to sell services/support or die.

      It will also encourage the selling of broken, hard-to-use software (If my business relied on support, why would I want to make it any easier for you to use it for free?)

    35. Re:Be careful what you wish for by commodore64_love · · Score: 1

      >>>it would be useful to just release to the public domain, but in the world we live now, your works could be repackaged against users.

      Why does that matter? The original code you released is still public domain. Users may choose the repackaged product, or choose your public domain product, however they desire. The novel Tom Sawyer is in the public domain, and while someone might choose to rework it and copyright it, that doesn't stop Sawyer from still being public domain.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    36. Re:Be careful what you wish for by orasio · · Score: 1

      Duh^2.

      Copyleft is a response to copyrights in software, to try and turn copyright against itself.

      In Stallman's view, the good things from having no copyright would outweigh the issues you name.
      In a world without software copyrights, some people _could_ sell binaries, but it would be a lot harder as a business model if your binaries can be shared. The scarcity would be at development time and not at distribution, so you would have to charge for development or other services and not for distribution.

      Anyhow, you can't steal an idea (http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1633548&cid=32012984). Patents make it possible for someone to restrict you from using your own idea, but getting rid of software patents would take care of that.

    37. Re:Be careful what you wish for by orasio · · Score: 1

      >>>it would be useful to just release to the public domain, but in the world we live now, your works could be repackaged against users.

      Why does that matter? The original code you released is still public domain. Users may choose the repackaged product, or choose your public domain product, however they desire. The novel Tom Sawyer is in the public domain, and while someone might choose to rework it and copyright it, that doesn't stop Sawyer from still being public domain.

      Your example is right. About your question, well, you are asking why proprietary software is harmful to users. I know you, and I think you already know that, you might not agree, but you can start reading about it here anyhow: http://www.fsf.org/about//

    38. Re:Be careful what you wish for by eggnoglatte · · Score: 1

      The day after copyright is abandoned, somebody will start selling LICENSES(*) to binary programs that currently fall under the GPL, and you can bet that they won't be providing the source code.

      (*) Even if you abandon copyright, it will still be legal to negotiate special contract terms through a license. It may be impractical for consumer-style software, but any kind of professional software will be lease-only, and under NDA that makes redistribution punishable by a massive penalty. Practically the same net effect as copyright, but with more paperwork required.

    39. Re:Be careful what you wish for by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The very reason for GPL's existence is copyright. If it didn't exist GPL wouldn't be needed.

      I know, GPL blahblah source must be made available yaddayadda.. Fucking pussies. Real Programmers know that .exe IS sourcecode. What the fuck does non-obfuscated form even mean? Do I have to add extra parentheses so that the PHB reader doesn't get confused (like gcc suggests)?

    40. Re:Be careful what you wish for by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Although the first kernel won't be forced PD under the old regime until 2019.

      That's assuming renewal of the copyright. As I understand it was 14 + 14 by renewal, so the default term was 14, not 28 years.

    41. Re:Be careful what you wish for by Philip_the_physicist · · Score: 1

      There's nothing wrong with a hereditary nobility, since there is usually no effective difference between an aristocrat and a commoner with the same amount of money, and at least a society with an aristocracy is honest enough to admit that some people are wealthier and more powerful than others (and I say this as a person who has no realistic prospect of getting so much as a CBE, let alone a hereditary title). (Of course, if you are a far-socialist or a communist, then your problem is no so much with the titles and honours as the money and power, which is a separate issue entirely.)

      However, my objection to long copyrights is not about the benefit to heirs of the owner, but that it is not beneficial to society, either artistically or financially.

  4. I teach at university and am constantly fighting by aussersterne · · Score: 5, Interesting

    the silly brainwashing about fair use pounded into students' heads by other well-meaning but misguided instructors.

    I have students afraid to read books before writing papers because if they "get an idea from a book" and use it, it's plagiarism. The entire notion of citations has gone right past them; all they know is that everything they do has to be "original."

    I routinely hear that they didn't know they could use a quote because they thought it was "stealing" and are afraid of reading relevant works first so that they don't "copy an idea" without meaning to.

    The other half of the students, steeped in remix and sampling culture and fancying themselves anti-IP warriors, routinely copy and paste without citing, then give me lectures about how IP is coming to dominate society. They intentionally refuse to cite out of a misguided sense of activism and as a result flunk assignments and even classes and are referred to disciplinary bodies where they presumably make the same arguments.

    There is little sanity and a lot of craziness coming out of the discourse on IP, and we're going to see it affect us as the current generation of students enters the workforce.

    --
    STOP . AMERICA . NOW
  5. Re:Preserve it? Hell, Let's Define It! by iYk6 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Easier said than done. There are so many variables that affect fair use. Is it for commercial purposes or non-profit? Parody or satire? 10% of what? Like you alluded, 10% of a large work is a lot. An entire song, over a hundred pages in a large book. And what about new technologies? The nature of fair use makes it difficult to define.

  6. See? by Nugoo · · Score: 1, Redundant

    See? We can make up numbers too!

    --
    I explicitly release the above into the public domain.
  7. Bad comparison by epte · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The assumption is to compare against $0 revenue for unfair use. But isn't it myopic to rely on the term "revenue" instead of "value"? It implies a suboptimization of the entertainment industry, instead of optimizing the whole.

    Don't you have to instead compare against the value generated for society as a whole? If it generates $10 trillion in value to society for moderate unfair use, then that changes the picture a little.

    I Am Not An Economist (obviously)

    1. Re:Bad comparison by sourcerror · · Score: 1

      If you were an economist you knew, that we cannot measure the value of things that are not paid for. (It doesn't mean it's worthless.)

    2. Re:Bad comparison by epte · · Score: 1

      I never said that value wouldn't still be measured as money.

      (Not an exact analogy)
      If I grow my own food in a garden, I am decreasing the revenue to the grocery stores and other farmers, but its value is still measurable in terms of reduced expenses.

      And your point is well taken. There are indeed other unmeasurable differences, both positive and negative.

  8. As stupid as the exaggerated piracy claims by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You cannot draw a parallel between revenue generated by companies that manufacture products and services that *may* benefit from fair use and the total revenue that is generated by those companies.. Its as absurd as the claims made by RIAA.. The broad strokes used by the study combined with almost laughable conclusions are an embarrasement to the computre industry they claim to represent.

    1. Re:As stupid as the exaggerated piracy claims by monkeythug · · Score: 3, Insightful

      In fact the whole point of this report is the highlight the absurdity of the claims made by the RIAA/MPAA. It deliberately uses the exact same methodology, where in the *AA case it assumes that all revenue generated by creative industries is attributable to the existence of copyright law - this report applies the same thinking to fair use.

      The idea is to point out that even by the *AA's own calculations the economy benefits far more from exceptions to copyright law than it does from copyright law itself.

      --
      Don't you wish you hadn't wasted 3 seconds of your life reading this sig?
  9. Public Domain has benefitted Disney the most by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yet Disney destroys the public domain?

    Maybe we shouldn't let those with simply a profit centric outlook dictate how the rest of us live.

    1. Re:Public Domain has benefitted Disney the most by Yvan256 · · Score: 1

      profit centric outlook

      Microsoft?

  10. GPL would be unnecessary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The GPL would be unnecessary if not for overzealous, unjust copyright law. Stallman created it as a response to injustice. If that injustice never existed, chances are the GPL wouldn't be nearly as important.

    1. Re:GPL would be unnecessary by Sloppy · · Score: 1

      The GPL would be unnecessary if not for overzealous, unjust copyright law.

      That isn't really true. Even without copyright law, source code can still be withheld from users as a trade secret, making it nearly effectively proprietary in many cases. Sure, users would have the right to hire anyone they want to perform maintenance instead of being locked into a single source, but turning binary blobs into maintainable source is often impractical.

      Without copyright, Free Software's biggest advantage to users, would be at risk. Maybe not lost (BSD users don't seem to be crying much) but users would have to stay on the ball and make sure they don't follow the wrong forks.

      Stallman created it as a response to injustice. If that injustice never existed, chances are the GPL wouldn't be nearly as important.

      Correct, but copyright itself wasn't really the injustice; proprietariness was. Copyright is just a means of implementing proprietary lockin. Take away copyright, and there are still ways to fuck users. GPL combined with copyright, gives users a way to select software that protects them from proprietary pitfalls (mostly; watch out for external services).

      --
      As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
    2. Re:GPL would be unnecessary by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Without copyright, reverse engineering and reselling the result would be legal. There's little that couldn't be torn apart and delivered for free. And even if it couldn't, the binary blobs that couldn't be broken could still be traded with open parts around them, which, while not ideal, is still better than we have now.

  11. Re:I teach at university and am constantly fightin by abigsmurf · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The whole issue of fair use has been warped quite a bit by people believing they've a good knowledge of related laws because of reading tech sites and places like Digg, Reddit and Slashdot.

    Too many people look at cases that are right at the legal limit of fair use and had to be argued heavily in court and be well justified. Rather than looking that at the point where fair use ends, they see that as a new baseline and then step over the mark whilst thinking the law is on their side.

  12. Fair use vs Copyright length by kurt555gs · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Originally the length of time a Copyright was valid for was 14 years. This allowed publishing and distribution in a world of Ox carts and sailing ships. One would only reason that with instant, world wide "content" distribution, it should be much less now. Say 1 or 2 years. This would be enough to extract money from the general public before the real purpose of Copyright law which is to put all creative works into the public domain would come into effect.

    Now with the post Eldridge Mickey Mouse forever life + 75 years as the term, and the whole reason of copyright law being twisted into some ownership of "content" forever which is exactly the opposite of it's intent, we need "fair use" and "net neutrality".

    What really is needed though, is to fix copyright and patent law so the time limit of protection is only a year or two, and return to it's original purpose of bringing all of these works into the public domain where they belong!

    --
    * Carthago Delenda Est *
    1. Re:Fair use vs Copyright length by Aladrin · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I think 2 years is too little. That's enough for the giants to make their money, but is unfair to the small publishers and self-publishers. It effectively creates a barrier to entry into the arts.

      --
      "If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; But if you really make them think, they'll hate you." - DM
    2. Re:Fair use vs Copyright length by tkrotchko · · Score: 1

      I think 14 years is probably about right.

      It seems to me that our current view of copyright is that it somehow establishes "ownership" of a work, which is an interesting idea if you think about it. Copyright should encourage a view that promotes what the name implies: it gives me exclusive copying rights to a work for a moderate time period.

      --
      You were mistaken. Which is odd, since memory shouldn't be a problem for you
    3. Re:Fair use vs Copyright length by Yvan256 · · Score: 1

      Well, let's take the original 14 years and be extremely generous and give them an extra 6 years, which is nearly 43% more than what copyrights intended in the first place. After all 20 years is a nice round number but it's still a lot better than the mess we're in right now.

      If you can't make profits in the first 20 years, you won't make any after that either. And just to be sure, let's make breaking DRM legal on works 20 years old or more. Let's also make it an obligation to release the DRM encryption method for those works.

    4. Re:Fair use vs Copyright length by mangu · · Score: 4, Insightful

      let's make breaking DRM legal on works 20 years old or more. Let's also make it an obligation to release the DRM encryption method for those works

      Better to make DRM and copyright mutually exclusive. If you use DRM you don't need the legal protection of copyright.

    5. Re:Fair use vs Copyright length by Yvan256 · · Score: 1

      If you make them exclusive, you give them the best loophole they could possibly want.

      Copyright = 14 (or 20) years of protection. After that the works go into the public domain. That's the original idea of copyrights and that's a fair case of artists profits vs the public domain.

      DRM = it's illegal to break it, there's no time limit on the protection, the works never enter the public domain, you lose control over where and how you can access the works. The perfect solution for the MPAA/RIAA/etc because they get everything and we get nothing.

    6. Re:Fair use vs Copyright length by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wow!

      In the same light, if you lock your car / home, then you cannot file a complaint for theft or claim insurance. How did the parent get +4 insightful? Please use reasoning when fighting DRM.

    7. Re:Fair use vs Copyright length by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Best. Idea. Ever.

    8. Re:Fair use vs Copyright length by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      if you lock your car / home, then you cannot file a complaint for theft or claim insurance
      DRM is more like putting a padlock in a hotel room door, not in your home. Remember, a copyright, by definition, exists for a LIMITED time, DRM is forever.

      DRM is just like stealing from the future generations that will never get the benefit of public domain for the protected work.

    9. Re:Fair use vs Copyright length by DelShalDar · · Score: 1

      The "fair use" definitions should also be clarified, without becoming overly specific, while still providing a maximum protection for the members of the general public. My current opinion on "fair use" in a digital environment is thus: If I'm only making a personal copy for backup/performance use, I'm not making money off of what copies I may make, and I'm not posting raw versions of what copies I may have of it online, then it's "fair use". If I'm pulling it down through a method that has an upload component (BitTorrent), then so long as I have a legitimate copy of the original (say, on DVD/etc.) then it's also "fair use," even with the upload component. If a person posts content in an online-accessible forum, it is assumed that the person is an authorized agent of the copyright holder and is authorized to publish that content for distribution by that method. If it has been published in an online forum (HTTP/FTP/BitTorrent) and I can download it, then it is the responsibility of the copyright owner (or their agents) to go after the one(s) who illegally published it and have the offending content removed. It is not my responsibility to verify the copyright state/ownership/authorized-distributors of a work when I download/seed it.

      DRM and other technical security measures would not even be mentioned as DRM doesn't fall under copyright law, since it is not the content itself. There are likely a few other logistical issues that could be ironed out, but it should cover the majority of cases.

      One would only reason that with instant, world wide "content" distribution, it should be much less now. Say 1 or 2 years.

      That 1-2 years is okay for an initial, automatic copyright (as of the date of first publication), anything beyond that should need to be registered by some form of central copyright authority, where anyone can look up the current copyright terms and what copyrights exist on a given work. At this point, copyright terms are in such an unknown state that it's prohibitively complicated to determine what is and isn't in the public domain, and when it might become public domain if it isn't already, and who "owns" the copyrighted content of interest to begin with.

      This is how I'd like to see a "fix" for copyright terms and ownership rules:

      • Ownership of a copyright cannot be transferred or modified once registered,
      • A Copyright can only be owned and controlled by an actual person (as in an individual human being, not a company or "a person on paper only").
      • Multiple persons can share ownership of a single copyright.
      • Publication/Distribution rights on a copyrighted work can only be authorized and/or revoked by the registered copyright owner(s).
      • An initial automatic copyright term of 2 years is assumed on initial publication (where "publication" == "making available to the public at large" regardless of the form or medium) or on registering with the central copyright registry, whichever occurs first.
      • Initial publication date is either (a) the date recorded by an included copyright notice (the date must be static), or (b) if if the year is the only date component included in the copyright notice, the first day (January 1) of the calendar year in the copyright notice.
      • The copyright term may be extended by optional paid extensions for 6 years each.
      • Copyright extensions may only be requested within six months prior to the expiration of the current copyright's registered term.
      • Copyright terms may only be extended by the registered copyright owner(s).
      • The maximum total copyright term (initial and all extensions combined) is 20 years from first publication.
      • If the copyright owner does not extend the copyright, the copyrighted content automatically falls into the public domain at the end of the registered copyright term.
      • Extension fees must be strictly limited to the costs associated with creating, running, and maintaining the registry infrastructure to allow regis
  13. Re:Preserve it? Hell, Let's Define It! by thunderdanp · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Your search for a clearly defined boundary of fair use boils down to this question; would you prefer that Congress decide the issue, or would you prefer the courts decide? I would argue that the Courts are better situated, in this context, to figure out what uses out to be protected under fair use. This is so due to the significant implications of rights gained under fair use. If you accept that copyright generally is a good, productive, successful inducement scheme to yield creative works, then taking some of those rights given under copyright away shouldn't be done lightly. The more you expand fair use, the less valuable a given copyright will be to the original author. Given that Congress has to act in a uniform manner and isn't able to feel out the edges of the ramifications of fair use, I posit that courts will produce the most fair and practicable rule for both parties.

  14. Re:I teach at university and am constantly fightin by QuantumG · · Score: 1

    IP has nothing to do with plagiarism. If I pay someone to write a paper for me, even if I get them to sign over the copyright for me, submitting it as my own work would be plagiarism. As for learning how to quote and cite work, sounds like they just need some remedial technical writing classes.

    --
    How we know is more important than what we know.
  15. Re:I teach at university and am constantly fightin by forand · · Score: 1

    This makes me sad. I have yet to teach many undergrad courses and I am in the hard sciences but it frightens me if I am going to have to deal with people who think they can reinvent the wheel much less all of physics just to not be "thieves."

  16. Re:I teach at university and am constantly fightin by commodore64_love · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Vice-versa I was visiting an engineering school, and the students came-up with a very ingenious idea to convert tidal waves into air motion and then electricity (via windmill action). I asked where they got the idea, and they said they saw it on the internet.

    Yes they copied the idea, but so what? That's how science advances. One guy has an idea and ~10,000 other guys work to perfect it and make it reality. As you said, as long as they cite it, I have no problem with it. "Stable ownership is the gift of social law, and is given late in the progress of society. It would be curious then, if an idea, the fugitive fermentation of an individual brain, could, of natural right, be claimed in exclusive and stable property. If nature has made any one thing less susceptible than all others of exclusive property, it is the action of the thinking power called an idea, which an individual may exclusively possess as long as he keeps it to himself; but the moment it is divulged, it forces itself into the possession of every one, and the receiver cannot dispossess himself of it.

    "Its peculiar character, too, is that no one possesses the less, because every other possesses the whole of it. He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. That ideas should freely spread from one to another over the globe, for the moral and mutual instruction of man, and improvement of his condition, seems to have been peculiarly and benevolently designed by nature, when she made them, like fire, expansible over all space, without lessening their density in any point, and like the air in which we breathe, move, and have our physical being, incapable of confinement or exclusive appropriation. Inventions then cannot, in nature, be a subject of property." - Thomas Jefferson in the 1780s

    --
    "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
  17. Re:I teach at university and am constantly fightin by Yvanhoe · · Score: 2, Interesting

    There is little sanity and a lot of craziness coming out of the discourse on X, and we're going to see it affect us

    Corrected. Replace X with "IP", "climate change", "economy", "healthcare", "drugs", "terrorism", "the tube network"...

    --
    The Wise adapts himself to the world. The Fool adapts the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the Fool.
  18. Tactics depend on the situation by NickFortune · · Score: 2, Insightful

    When dealing with an intractable foe, I see nothing wrong with adopting their tactics.

    You assume that all tactics favour both sides equally. The IP cartels can afford to employ professional liars, while they don't have much in the way of moral high ground. We have the moral ground, and any lies we might employ will be quickly picked apart and used to discredit us.

    Better to play to our strengths and keep it clean. Not everybody regards the world as the utterly amoral zero sum game that some economists would like it to be.

    --
    Don't let THEM immanentize the Eschaton!
    1. Re:Tactics depend on the situation by PopeRatzo · · Score: 2, Funny

      The IP cartels can afford to employ professional liars

      Yes, but Fair Use has God on its side.

      Or at least morality and the common good for those of you who don't believe in fairy tales.

      Copyright is murder.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    2. Re:Tactics depend on the situation by NickFortune · · Score: 2, Funny

      Copyright is murder.

      And that, ladies and gentlemen, nicely illustrates the shortfall between a trained professional and the enthusiastic amateur.

      Thank you, your Holiness.I'd say the check is in the mail, but that would ruin your amateur standing, and thereby destroy my point :)

      --
      Don't let THEM immanentize the Eschaton!
    3. Re:Tactics depend on the situation by PopeRatzo · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Your assumption is incorrect, Nicky. I have made my living, supported my family, as a content creator since 1989. I've been a professional since 1987, but it took me a couple of years to start making enough money to not need a day job.

      Since 2006 I only use Creative Commons licenses. It has not negatively affected the profitability of my work.

      It is possible, it just takes a little creativity. Content creators are supposed to be creative, so it works out.

      Copyright is not only murder, but it's for the weak-minded, the one-hit wonders. It became immoral the day it became legal for creators to sell or transfer their rights, and when copyright was extended past two decades. When it was extended past the natural life of the author, it became an abomination. It's for people who fear they don't have anything more to give.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    4. Re:Tactics depend on the situation by Zencyde · · Score: 1

      Thank you for pointing out so many flaws. I don't know what I like best. The notice that copyright is all about one-hit-wonders or noting that it's absurd that copyrights are transferable (coupled with the increased length). If I had mod points, I'd try to use them to help your cause.

      --
      What day is it? Could you please tell me?
    5. Re:Tactics depend on the situation by NickFortune · · Score: 1

      Your assumption is incorrect, Nicky

      Which assumption would that be, Rattykins? The only one I made is the assumption that you're not a professional liar.

      I have made my living, supported my family, as a content creator since 1989.

      See. it sounds to me like you make your money by contributing something useful to the world. As opposed to those tossers who get paid for pissing in the global data pool on a daily basis.

      Copyright is not only murder, but it's for the weak-minded, the one-hit wonders

      No, no, no, no, no. Copyright is a state enforced monopoly, supposedly of limited term, on the specific expression of an idea. Murder is an act of violence in which a person is deprived of their life. See the difference? Neither of them are very nice, but there are important qualitative distinctions that we would be foolish to ignore.

      Don't get me wrong. I'm all for copyright abolition, although I'd settle for reform if it was sweeping enough. But if you conflate a widely abused rights framework with an irreversible act of violence, it makes you sound like some wild-eyed fanatic. That damages your credibility, and by extension, that of your argument.

      --
      Don't let THEM immanentize the Eschaton!
  19. Illegal Drugs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Illegal drugs generates 10.8 Billion dollars for the U.S. Economy. 1 in 5 people benefit from the movement of drug money. Pulling numbers out of your ass makes for interesting articles. Lies, damn lies and statistics.

  20. We'll be sorry characters... by greatgreygreengreasy · · Score: 1

    ...protected for 80 years past the life of our Creator.

    --
    LRN 2 SWM
  21. They need more than that. by aussersterne · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I recently assigned a paper on the difference between plagiarism and copyright infringement in a class on innovation. We had to spend two weeks more discussing it after I got not a single paper that understood the difference, despite having spent time going over the topic already.

    What surfaced in the course of our discussions after the paper was that they were relying on sources (articles, press, other instructors) that simply conflated the two, and whose language on the justifications for both was almost always couched simply in individualist ethics (protecting an implied right on the parts of other authors in terms of identity and status) rather than in rational policy calculations. In short, most of the sources they found sloppily interchanged words like plagiarism and copyright infringement and implied both to be a matter of protecting egos and personas as an individual rights issue.

    Plagiarism = Copyright Violation = Failure to be original

    It was a very tough discussion because they were very suspicious to find one single instructor (i.e. me) telling them that pure originality is not the basis of science or creative life (indeed, isn't even possible), and that plagiarism is not a legal construct and should not be imagined in that way.

    --
    STOP . AMERICA . NOW
    1. Re:They need more than that. by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I got not a single paper that understood the difference, despite having spent time going over the topic already

      That's what happens when everybody Google's the same terms and uses those same first 10 sources for their research...

      --
      Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
    2. Re:They need more than that. by MobyDisk · · Score: 1

      mod parent up. This seemingly snarky comment is very insightful. Teachers often complain about the use of Wikipedia and the internet in general, but they often complain for the wrong reasons. There is nothing wrong with using these sources. What is bad is when those sources are the only ones they use. We are starting to become a search mono-culture: Google is so good that everyone uses it, so everyone gets the same results. This makes it possible for some corporation or blogger with an extremist opinion to game the search results and draw unwarranted attention.

    3. Re:They need more than that. by lennier · · Score: 1

      that plagiarism is not a legal construct and should not be imagined in that way.

      To a student, what is the difference between 'something that is illegal' and 'something that is a violation of school rules and will get you kicked out and disciplined'?

      --
      You are not a brain: http://books.google.com/books?id=2oV61CeDx-YC
    4. Re:They need more than that. by lennier · · Score: 1

      We are starting to become a search mono-culture: Google is so good that everyone uses it, so everyone gets the same results. This makes it possible for some corporation or blogger with an extremist opinion to game the search results and draw unwarranted attention.

      As opposed to the good old days, when everyone got their information from the same corporate-owned newspaper, radio and TV, which made it possible for some corporation or publisher to game the mass media results and draw unwarranted attention?

      I agree that search monoculture is a problem, but it seems like there's a bit more randomness in the results than in the mass-media era.

      --
      You are not a brain: http://books.google.com/books?id=2oV61CeDx-YC
  22. I'm fine w/ copyrights lasting longer than 14 yrs by Benfea · · Score: 1

    I am not fine with copyrights extending past the life of the creator. I also think copyrights should belong solely to the creator(s) and be non-transferable. Big content corporations can still make money without holding the copyrights themselves.

  23. Our founding fathers only worried.... by croftj · · Score: 1

    about us being enslaved by the government. I'm sure they had no qualms about us being enslaved by our corporate leaders.

    Now bow down and submit to our corporate benefactors and overlords.

    --
    -- Many men would appreciate a woman's mind more if they could fondle it
  24. Leave network neutrality out of this by MikeRT · · Score: 1

    The fight to truly codify what fair use is into law will be hard enough. It doesn't need the network neutrality anchor around its neck. The two are unrelated issues. It's possible to have a very non-neutral network with regard to what protocols can be used at what times and still have fair use legally protected; it's possible to have an entirely neutral network and have no legal right to fair use.

    1. Re:Leave network neutrality out of this by scorp1us · · Score: 1

      Right on! Lets level the transport of content out from the content itself. The two are separate issues. Your ability to legally transfer content is not restricted by the speed at which you get it. That would be like saying "all downloads under 10kb/s are legally obtained." Clearly, transfer speed does not confer a right or permission.

      --
      Slashdot's rate-of-post filter: Preventing you from posting too many great ideas at once.
  25. so what let acta get rid of it and by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    and get rid of whats left of the us economy
    this is good stat now you kow what your are losing with acta for what holly.insane wants

  26. Re:I teach at university and am constantly fightin by croftj · · Score: 1

    Your comment sounds like the democrats and republicans fighting over every stinkin' piece of legislation that has gone through congress over the last 12 years. Two sides each standing as far to the extreme as possible making stupid if not totally wrong and invalid arguments on how they are right and the other side is wrong.

    Sadly, I don't see it stopping anytime soon.

    --
    -- Many men would appreciate a woman's mind more if they could fondle it
  27. Re:Preserve it? Hell, Let's Define It! by Mathinker · · Score: 1

    > I posit that courts will produce the most fair and practicable rule for both parties.

    You meant "for the party which has the most money". Most of us don't have (or wouldn't bother to spend) the mega-dollars (OK, maybe I exaggerate: kilo-dollars) it takes to go unaided to Federal court, even if it was a shoe-in that we would win. Especially if we are talking about personal fair use.

    So, your point depends greatly upon whether you are talking about revenue-generating fair use or personal not-for-profit fair use. For the second, it's better to have something codified in law.

  28. Re:Preserve it? Hell, Let's Define It! by Artifakt · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Fair use is quantifiable in many cases, but it's not simple enough to always put numbers on it. It's been up to the courts to decide in many cases, because fair use also impacts cases such as libel suits.
        Someone quotes a paragraph from a one page essay by someone else. Is that fair use? We could go by some simple rule, i.e. it's 1/4 or less of the whole by word count, but why did someone quote an entire paragraph in the first place? Was that much needed to establish context? Were there several ideas in the same paragraph that the second writer wished to comment on separately? Has the first writer been complaining that people were taking her remarks out of context, quoting isolated sentences in a misleading way, and yet is now complaining people are quoting too much of her works? It's the real world - deciding what's fair in general is part of fair use.
          We need more actual legal codification, but it should probably be to set minima, as in using no more than this percentage of a song is absolutely allowable, higher percentages may be fair use also for various reasons. We also need to expand that list of various reasons, which now cites some examples such as satire or parody, academic use, and others, as there was no intent to make that list comprehensive when it was developed.

    --
    Who is John Cabal?
  29. Re:I teach at university and am constantly fightin by orasio · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Every time I see someone from two centuries ago respond so clearly to the dumbasses that rule today, I get more convinced that the world is advancing in the wrong direction.

  30. Re:Preserve it? Hell, Let's Define It! by jedidiah · · Score: 1

    > If you accept that copyright generally is a good, productive, successful inducement scheme to yield creative
    > works, then taking some of those rights given under copyright away shouldn't be done lightly.

    Except I don't, and shouldn't believe any such thing. Copyright is not a "good thing".

    Copyright is a necessary evil. It should be treated as such.

    This is the only way that the least destructive path towards "encouraging creativity" will occur. Otherwise, the
    copyright maximalists will run amok and try to invent rights that don't really exist in the law and then try to
    penalize everyone else for violating them.

    It is copyright that should be expanded with care.

    It has been undergoing reckless expansion for decades now without any signs of stopping.

    --
    A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
  31. Re:I teach at university and am constantly fightin by orasio · · Score: 1

    The other half of the students, steeped in remix and sampling culture and fancying themselves anti-IP warriors, routinely copy and paste without citing, then give me lectures about how IP is coming to dominate society. They intentionally refuse to cite out of a misguided sense of activism and as a result flunk assignments and even classes and are referred to disciplinary bodies where they presumably make the same arguments.

    I don't think it's a misguided sense of activism.
    While plagiarism is almost unanimously regarded as a bad thing, what you describe is typical activism. They are pushing the boundaries, going too forward in some cases, and suffering the consequences. They might be on to something. At least, the situation can't get any worse.

  32. Re:I teach at university and am constantly fightin by russotto · · Score: 1

    Too many people look at cases that are right at the legal limit of fair use and had to be argued heavily in court and be well justified. Rather than looking that at the point where fair use ends, they see that as a new baseline and then step over the mark whilst thinking the law is on their side.

    This implies that there IS a hard line somewhere. There isn't. The "gray area" in which decisions are mixed is the WHOLE area in which fair use might be asserted. There have been cases where copying single sentences (out of several paragraphs) have been ruled not-fair, for instance.

  33. Re:Preserve it? Hell, Let's Define It! by ThunderDan · · Score: 1

    You meant "for the party which has the most money". Most of us don't have (or wouldn't bother to spend) the mega-dollars (OK, maybe I exaggerate: kilo-dollars) it takes to go unaided to Federal court, even if it was a shoe-in that we would win.

    While it is certainly true that going to trial in federal court is expensive, it is similarly expensive to have an effect in Congress. It is a cynical, but none the less accurate, reality that interest groups are major players in the legislative process, and those with the most money are typically the best able to hold the ear of any given legislator, let alone the many that are needed to pass a bill. I'm saying, given the choice between a multitude of legislators, each of whom is answering to their constitutents, mingling with interest groups, and plotting their next election campaign, or a federal court judge, who for all intents and purposes has a life tenure and is mostly immunized from the political system, I'll take the latter when making my arguments.

  34. Re:Preserve it? Hell, Let's Define It! by ThunderDan · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Copyright is a necessary evil. It should be treated as such.

    I am always curious about comments such as this. If Copyright is "evil," what makes it necessary? And if it is really necessary, is it really evil? To argue that something is a "necessary evil," to me, belies the underlying principles that makes something necessary in the first place, and is simply a semantical device to remain indignant to an idea, but still reap its benefits.

  35. $4 Trillion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Is this paper, digital, or fictitious capital. Where is it vanishing too?

  36. nothing is original by circletimessquare · · Score: 1

    everything we say do and think is built on the bones of our ancestors

    in that respect, if you talk about anything being original, what you really mean is it "significantly expands" upon existing work

    human culture science and thought are all branches on a tree. and like any tree, some tiny twigs turn into mighty trunks that in turn support their own twigs, while other twigs fail to thrive or break and fall off

    the tree of memes is the same as the tree of genes: constant innovation, most of it misguided, but a spare few leading to the next big thing

    nothing is ever original. all you can ever do is expand on what came before, and that is all you should ever aim to do in your life. but don't fool yourself: if it wasn't for who came before you and what they did, what you do would be impossible to do

    note i am not excusing the losers who only imitate or coopt someone else's work as their own. but sometimes, good ideas are forgotten, and it takes someone to rediscover them and, on their own, discover they are important (and don't deserve to be forgotten) and to then shout about them to gain the prominence those forgotten or muted ideas deserve

    and while this kind of copying is not as noble as original discovery, it is just as important and just as valid a way to contribute to the world. this applies to culture and science. is darwin less of a thinker because he reimagined and remixed the idea of evolution that was already realized but not as expounded upon by many others before him and many of his contemporaries? sometimes, who gets attributed for an idea many others have already realized is simply because they are the ones who first shouted about it the loudest, and then, because of thwm, the idea catches on like wildfire, even though they themselves weren't original in the strictest sense of the word

    is gore verbinski less of a moviemaker because he reimagined the japanese "ringu" as "the ring" (which some say is superior to the original)?

    is hideo nakata less of a storyteller because he only made a movie of koji suzuki's book (but he popularized it globally because he made such a scary good movie)?

    and is koji suzuki just a hack writer because he took some medieval japanese folklore and a canadian film and remixed it as ringu (but of course, it was his contribution to remix like this, and add the idea of a vhs tape, modern technology, being a ghost's manifestation (which is also an idea that has also been explored by others))?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banch%C5%8D_Sarayashiki

    Once there was a beautiful servant named Okiku. She worked for the samurai Aoyama Tessan. Okiku often refused his amorous advances, so he tricked her into believing that she had carelessly lost one of the family's ten precious delft plates. Such a crime would normally result in her death. In a frenzy, she counted and recounted the nine plates many times. However, she could not find the tenth and went to Aoyama in guilty tears. The samurai offered to overlook the matter if she finally became his lover, but again she refused. Enraged, Aoyama threw her down a well to her death.
    It is said that Okiku became a vengeful spirit who tormented her murderer by counting to nine and then making a terrible shriek to represent the missing tenth plate - or perhaps she was tormented herself and still trying to find the tenth plate but crying out in agony when she never could. In some versions of the story, this torment continued until an exorcist or neighbor shouted "ten" in a loud voice at the end of her count. Her ghost, finally relieved that someone had found the plate for her, haunted the samurai no more.

    *ring* *ring*... "seven days..."

    http://www.terrortrap.com/ghostmovies/changeling/

    Another clue that came up in the tape of the seance was the word "well," so John concludes it must be the

    --
    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
  37. but for who? by nazsco · · Score: 1

    even if it generates the value mentioned, it's for apple and korea selling ipods. not for the artists.

  38. Re:Preserve it? Hell, Let's Define It! by MobyDisk · · Score: 1

    The problem is that in order for a court to decide, someone must have standing to sue you over it. You can't just call a judge and ask them to make a ruling. And if you lose the case, you may lose your house, your retirement, and your children's college fund.

  39. As a musician by Sta7ic · · Score: 1

    As an open-mic musician who gets up and plays for fun, I'm not surprised by the dollar value for businesses affected by fair use. Karaoke, open mic, folk music, classical music, 'expired' music, etc, all ends up being used in a small or large part by a huge number of companies. Who owns the copyright for Vivaldi's orchestrations? Mozart's compositions?

    'Fair use' is what lets me get up and play 'Rare Old Times', 'Whiskey in the Jar', or 'Black Velvet Band' in front of a small crowd without worrying if ASCAP or the like has someone fishing for royalty violations ~ which did happen in my little 100k population city a few years back and turned a lot of businesses off from allowing live music.

    1. Re:As a musician by DelShalDar · · Score: 1

      That is mostly due to those agencies assuming that any performance of "their" song is their performance. If you don't use a copyrighted, recorded instance of a work, then they can't claim copyright. If you buy sheet music, you can't be hit for copyright infringement when you play that music, only if you copy the actual writing on the sheet music and distribute it. If you sing, and they can claim copyright infringement, then you can also claim the same thing every time they speak, since there's just so many words that can be strung together to convey certain meanings. Ask them how they plan to explain, to a jury, that their copyrighted, recorded version is in every way identical to your performance, and that you are copying and distributing their work. Unless they can prove that you didn't actually perform that piece (as in, you just stood on stage and played the copyrighted track instead of singing yourself), they have no claim.

      Copyright law prevents the copying and distribution of an instance of a work, not every piece of work that is merely similar. As a musician/singer/songwriter/writer/artist every performance you do is also copyrighted, automatically, and without exception. Every sentence, page, chapter, and book that is written in the US is copyrighted by default, and automatically protected under copyright law. Anything presented to a public forum is assumed "published" and therefore is automatically subject to copyright law. Any time you just hum a random tune, your performance is protected under copyright law. If you're in the habit of giving impromptu speeches to random people on the street, each speech is automatically considered a performance and is, therefore, protected under copyright law.

      So, to avoid certain songs while performing on stage is exactly what they want you to think is infringement, and just like "downloading is theft," that thought needs to die a quick and painful death.

  40. One problem by bdleonard · · Score: 1

    Murder is cheap, at least in relative terms. Scenario: I want to make a mega-summer block buster movie out of your very popular (and still copyrighted) work of fiction. I can either pay you millions for the movie rights, or I could "wait" until an "accident" happens and pay nothing to anybody.

  41. It's legal to break DRM for interoperability by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's legal to break DRM for interoperability. And you can copy a DVD with the DRM and still play it. Therefore they won't go this route.

    1. Re:It's legal to break DRM for interoperability by Yvan256 · · Score: 1

      It's not legal everywhere and laws can be changed. Thus we need to both ask for publication about the DRM and the continued efforts on the part of so-called "evil hackers".

  42. YOU murder, I get the copyright. Cool. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    YOU murder, I get the copyright. Cool. Unless the copyrights go to the murder, in which case, this would be the easiest murder case to solve EVER.

    Tell me, do you ever think this through, or just parrot it as if it is some killer argument?

  43. Re:I teach at university and am constantly fightin by commodore64_love · · Score: 1

    That's because we no longer educate, or encourage independent thought.
    We merely stuff information into brains and train them to be well-behaved workers.

    --
    "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
  44. Re:I teach at university and am constantly fightin by fandingo · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Every time I read asinine responses about "the good old days" I get more convinced that people are deluded. Society is better in every respect than it was two hundred years ago, get over it.

  45. Fair Use Steals $4.7 Trillion From RI/MPAA Members by Culture20 · · Score: 1

    That's how they'll read it. And they'll draft legislation to get it all.

  46. Re:I teach at university and am constantly fightin by orasio · · Score: 1

    I didn't say going backwards.

    In most practical respects everything is better now than before.

    The thing is that one and two hundred years back most modern societies were aiming close to where we are now. I think it's no longer aiming towards a beautiful future. Luckily, lots of people are working on that, I try to be one of them.

  47. Without actually looking it up... by bwcbwc · · Score: 1

    I think it's a safe bet that Rep. Lofgren represents a Northern California district and not anything near LA...If Congress is going to be run by lobbyists, it's really time for them to do a quick check of which industries in the US actually contribute more to the GDP. It isn't the traditional media companies.

    --
    We are the 198 proof..
  48. What I would like to know. by Burz · · Score: 1

    Why doesn't academia provide clearer guidance on where citations are appropriate, and particularly the situations where they're not needed? For instance, at what point can an established author drop the citations from their speech writing, blogging, etc. such that their own expression of ideas doesn't sound like collections of "X said XY and Y said Z"?

    Just where and when are people expected to function as archaeologists of ideas, as opposed to just freely expressing themselves?

    1. Re:What I would like to know. by Philip_the_physicist · · Score: 1

      What I was taught was that any idea or principle which is well-known doesn't need to be cited, just referenced by its own name (for example one would just say "using Newton's 3rd law" or "by the second law of thermodynamics"), or in a computing context, something like quicksort or mergesort can just be used, because everyone knows them, but if you copied the function from somewhere (rather than using a library call to a standard library), then you should acknowledge it.

      In terms of a presentation or the like, what was expected was that only important or less widely-known points would need to be cited in the speech, the rest could merely be referenced against a list distributed with whatever printed notes are given out, unless teh material was a direct quotation or something liek a graph taken from someone else's data.

    2. Re:What I would like to know. by Burz · · Score: 1

      That seems like an entirely subjective process to me. And it is unrealistic for the frequency with which people generate even formal communications today. Why not just provide web links when possible?

      Really, there ought to be some sort of concrete guide that people can freely reference. I think ideally it would be written in the form and spirit of an RFC.

    3. Re:What I would like to know. by Philip_the_physicist · · Score: 1

      Whilst that sounds like a good idea, the actual decision is so political and cultural that it would probably need far more people than the RFC process can easily handle, and the whole debate would very likely produce more heat than light.

      That said, it would be nice if there was some sane and widely used standard for providing bibliographic information which could be readily embedded into most if not all document formats, so that, say, a new cite [X]HTML tag could cause user-agents to pull in and summarise in a suitable, user- or agent-defined manner.

  49. Re:I teach at university and am constantly fightin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's nice to see just how much better it is: We have better or, at least newer, technologies that are all based on the technologies that came before, oh, wait that doesn't support your claim because all of that innovation wouldn't have happened under current copyright law. Maybe... er... uh... We're certainly more productive, wait, no, that's just being able to use the newer technologies for more things, so that's out... Maybe "we're more healthy?" No, not really, we still have disease and such that were pretty much eradicated decades ago that are coming back due to all of the "better social conditions" we're acting under.

    I'd actually be interested in what you base your idea of "better" on, but since you're likely to be the same kind of person who can make millions on a ten dollar investment and still claim to have lost money in the deal because someone looked at you and didn't pay you for that "privilege," I feel safe in ignoring your obviously uninformed and ill-thought-out opinions.

  50. Re:I teach at university and am constantly fightin by Sally+Forth · · Score: 0

    And yet poverty is still at the same population percentage, broken families are at an all-time high (over 70% among blacks in the U.S.), the most prominent epidemic is spread mostly by unsafe sexual contact, and I think that people living in places like Darfur might take issue with your claim that everything is hunky-dory.

    Education levels in the U.S. have also declined. I invite you to locate a third-grade mathematics book written in the 1700's and take a third-grader through any of its lessons. The U.S. literacy rate is, if calculated through a common methodology using tests on Prose, Document, and Quantitative skills, actually around 60%. (Higher estimates are based on a very low requirement for literacy, and people who pass those tests may be unable to read well enough to even follow simple instructions.)

    Sure, there are improvements. In the U.S., for instance, we no longer enslave people on the basis of the color of their skin. (It does still happen in other parts of the world, though.) We've also made advances in technology and medicine. However, your absolute statement that society is better "in every respect", though, is very easily disproven.

  51. Net Neutrality??? by allcaps · · Score: 1

    Can someone please explain to me how net neutrality is going to prohibit fair use? Has anyone ever heard of the analog hole? If a content creator/provider locked down content so that no one could even see it, would it even be subject to net neutrality?

  52. Re:Preserve it? Hell, Let's Define It! by bzipitidoo · · Score: 1

    Boundaries of Fair Use? Of an idea? All undefinable. You can't draw boundaries between ideas like you can plots of land. Trying to do so has made a big mess, set off many fights. Seemingly simple, clear standards always run into special case after special case. It's like trying to define obscenity.

    Where does it end? Do musicians have to get a license to use Bo Diddley's beat, or Marshall amplifiers? George Harrison was famous for unintentionally ripping off other songs. Should he have had to surrender royalties for My Sweet Lord? "Cover versions" are allowed, no permission needed, just have to pay "mechanical royalties". Then, where's the line between parody and copying? Does MST3K cross it because they play entire movies? Terry Brooks was sued because his Shannara stuff was too similar to LOTR. (Maybe he should have argued Shannara was a parody?) I have not heard of McKiernan being sued for his much more blatant ripoff of LOTR, the Iron Tower. Far from being ashamed or trying to deny it, the author expresses his admiration for LOTR and states outright he's trying to create fantasy like it. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery? It's been argued that all stories are very much alike. A seemingly ordinary, usually likable person is forced to step up and be The Hero, then goes through all kinds of trials and tribulations before finally overcoming adversity (often in the form of an UBG) so everyone can live happily ever after. Yet this plot similarity, which might be unavoidable if a work is to have a chance of being popular, has been used as grounds for lawsuits. Every such case has to be decided on an individual basis, and there's been little consistency in results. The nature of the problems make it impossible to be consistent and clear, and there's no end in sight. Great for lawyers, not good for the rest of us.

    A huge hindrance to clear thinking on this matter is our terminology. English (and I should imagine most languages) defines thinking in a too possessive, individualized way. We are too accustomed to thinking of an idea as belonging to someone, of letting "your thoughts" mean more than what are you thinking, it's as if we mean your head is a repository for property, as if you could own a notion like you can own something material, no matter how many others independently think of the same thing. We also have this tendency to want to single out one person for credit from a group effort. A tribe goes on a hunt. It has to be planned and organized, a part that often goes largely unrecognized. Some members scout, beat the bushes, string nets, set traps, or wait in ambush. It may take dozens of shots to bring down an animal, yet there's this peculiar desire to figure out which activity requires the most skill (probably the shooting), then figure out which one made the fatal wound, and credit the hunter who shot it as MVP, so to speak. We discover far more than we originate. We choose what seems best and most interesting among infinitely many ideas, and combine them in ways that we hope are fresh but may not be. Composing chess problems has gotten to the point that there's a good chance someone else thought of the same thing years ago. It's a narrow area, and people have been making them for centuries. They even have a term for this: "anticipation". At least we commonly ask musicians what inspired them, and often they'll cite some previous works that they like and admire. Does an idea, a concept, a law of nature not exist until someone thinks of it? We are editors more than authors. There is nothing new under the sun.

    We should switch to a system that avoids all these expensive and wasteful arguments over who thought of it first, and also avoids the massive, burdensome overhead involved in obtaining permissions by the thousands to do every tiny little thing. I think we can create a system that avoids such problems and at the same time more fairly compensates contributors.

    --
    Intellectual Property is a monopolistic, selfish, and defective concept. It is "tyranny over the mind of man"
  53. Re:I teach at university and am constantly fightin by david_thornley · · Score: 1

    I'd understand the "no longer" better if I knew of any time or culture that encouraged independent thought. As always, those people who aren't going to be restrained think for themselves, and those who can be don't.

    --
    "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  54. Re:Preserve it? Hell, Let's Define It! by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

    With no copyright at all, then creative works will never be shown to the public. When the creator dies, the works can be lost, and will never be spread widely. This results in a net detriment to society. To encourage works to be released, the government decided to allow a limited monopoly (limited because there are exceptions like Fair Use) for a limited time, 14 years with one extension of another 14 years. In exchange for this monopoly, the creator agrees to release the work into the Public Domain.

    It is a necessary evil because the thought is that the optimal release of information into the Public Domain is with copyright, rather than without. It doesn't exist to protect profits of a business plan, but as a bribe to get people to "sell" their works into the Public Domain in exchange for the temporary limited monopoly.

    It isn't "necessary" in that society would continue to function without copyright. It isn't "evil" in that copyright won't rape children. But "necessary evil" means that it's an undesirable fix to an even less desirable problem. Though now, I think that we've gotten to where a complete repeal of all copyright would be more beneficial than the current system. So rather than being a necessary evil, it's just a good idea gone bad.

    Or are you really just objecting to the English language allowing an idiom to differ from the meanings of the words that comprise it? "Necessary evil" need not be necessary, nor evil. "A necessary evil is anything which, despite being considered to have undesirable qualities, is preferable to its absence." Note, the definition contains neither the requirement that it be "necessary" nor "evil", just undesirable, but more desirable than its absence.

  55. Re:Preserve it? Hell, Let's Define It! by bidule · · Score: 1

    I uploaded some song samples on Wikipedia for my favorite albums and the rules were 10% of the length of a song or 30 seconds, whichever is shorter. And, honestly, there's no law that completely and irrefutably protects this as fair use.

    Yeah, it cannot be that simple. If I distribute the first 30 seconds and you distribute the next 30 seconds, what we would collectively distribute is not fair use. I don't think there's any solution for intangible property.

    --
    ID: the nose did not occur naturally, how would we wear glasses otherwise? (apologies to Voltaire)
  56. fair use by andreakulikowski · · Score: 1

    companies like comcast, fox, and apple and viacom are trying to have extreme control over content stating that they need this control in order to be profitable and continue to exist. This study shows that companies that are more lenient may actually be heading in the right direction to be profitable in the future. Perhaps by being more open to fair use policies these companies could generate jobs and keep better public images.