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Hundred-Ton Dome To Collect Oil Spill

eldavojohn writes "After failing to contain the Gulf oil spill any other way, a massive containment dome had the finishing touches put on yesterday. It amounts to a giant concrete-and-steel box made by Wild Well Control that is designed to siphon the crude oil away from the water. They expect an 85 percent collection with this device. It's not a pretty situation as Google Earth illustrates."

89 of 565 comments (clear)

  1. 85% by stoolpigeon · · Score: 4, Insightful

    That number would be more encouraging if the amount coming out were not so massive. This spill is going to create a lot of suck for years to come.

    --
    It's hard to believe that's how Micronians are made. Why don't we see it right now by having you both kiss one another?
    1. Re:85% by houstonbofh · · Score: 2, Funny

      But look on the bright side. Jersey Shore can now have crude oil wrestling!

  2. Good luck with that by Huntr · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Never been tried > 350 feet of water. And the wellhead is a mile down. Fingers are crossed, tho'.

    1. Re:Good luck with that by Sponge+Bath · · Score: 2, Funny

      1 mile = 9.96 * 10^37 Planck Lengths for those who are insane, physicists, or both.

  3. American Chernobyl by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    I don't understand why they can't just bury it under 100 tons of concrete.

    And that structure looks nothing like a dome.


    Does't the oil business have contingency plans for this kind of thing?! And companies that specialize in this kind of work?! America is filling the Gulf with FAIL.

    1. Re:American Chernobyl by DJCacophony · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Actually, it's the UK filling the Gulf with FAIL

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      Slow Down, Cowboy! It's been 60 minutes since you last successfully posted a comment.
  4. Re:Man. by MightyMartian · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Pay politicians more money to make sure they can continue drilling.

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    The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
  5. Re:Man. by Shakrai · · Score: 3, Interesting

    If this concrete dealy doesn't work, what other options do they have?

    My understanding is that the only other option is to drill a relief well. Unfortunately it will take months before they have the equipment and logistics in place to do that.

    I'd like to know how this dome is supposed to work in rough seas. The oil is going to be contained within the dome and brought to a surface ship. What happens when that surface ship can't maintain position due to inclement weather? Hurricane season starts in another few weeks....

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  6. what are the chemical dispersants? by fantomas · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Can anybody tell me about the chemical dispersants? what happens to the 'dispersed' oil plus these chemicals? This is a naive question, please educate me but surely this means you now have oil+chemical in your water rather than just oil in your water - is the dilution level so low that it doesn't affect the sealife that is later caught to eat, does it combine with the oil to something that it relatively innocuous that breaks down in sunlight, or something that sinks to the sea bed etc?

    Information welcomed, just curious about what happens to that oil if its not skimmed off the surface or burnt off, but chemically treated and left in the ocean and left there. Maybe it's just so dilute it doesn't matter, I don't know. Any knowledge on this, folks?

    1. Re:what are the chemical dispersants? by AndersOSU · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Those who think letting the oil sink is a bad idea are a distinct minority.

      Sure, if there wasn't oil in the water we wouldn't want to dump dispersants in, but there is, so this is the lesser of two evils.

      The sea floor is a veritable desert compared to the ocean surface. The food chain starts in the first 10' of water, where plankton have access to sunlight.

      There are creatures that will be effected by oil on the sea floor like crabs and such, but it's still better than letting it run ashore.

      Briefly, oil on the ocean floor or dispersed in the water column is bad. Oil on the ocean surface is worse. And oil on the ocean surface at the shoreline and in the estuaries is an ecological catastrophe.

    2. Re:what are the chemical dispersants? by vlm · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Can anybody tell me about the chemical dispersants? what happens to the 'dispersed' oil plus these chemicals?

      See wikipedia "Bile" entry... Similar concept but in an ocean rather than the guts.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bile

      To make a very long story very short, oil naturally biodegrades over time by water internal-chemistry organisms, not oil internal-chemistry organisms. At a rate directly proportional to the surface area of the drop. Giant "ball" of oil the size of a football stadium will take much longer than a nearly infinite cloud of little microscopic droplets.

      If a life form existed on earth with oil based protoplasm rather than water, you wouldn't need the dispersant because that life form could live inside the volume of the oil as opposed to upon the surface...

      Think about bio sources of oil in the ocean. if there were no way to degrade oil, the oceans would be full of cod liver oil and whale oil. Similar with natural seeps of crude.

      Much like radioactivity, crude is mostly harmless when properly distributed at an extremely low level in a large volume... its concentrated stuff thats the problem.

      --
      "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
    3. Re:what are the chemical dispersants? by Mindcontrolled · · Score: 5, Informative

      Actually, you basically can't clean birds. It is just a feelgood measure. At the point where you pick them up, they have been trying to clean themselves already, thereby ingesting a huge amount of crude. Even if you get them clean and they don't die from the stress, they die of organ failure due to the toxicity rather sooner than later. The average survival time for a cleaned bird is 1-5 days, from the last data I have seen. It would be better to just euthanize them.

      --
      Ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
    4. Re:what are the chemical dispersants? by vbraga · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Interesting. Do you have a source for this?

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    5. Re:what are the chemical dispersants? by MightyMartian · · Score: 2, Funny

      Soap + undisclosed proprietary chemicals that are known to bio-accumulate. It will be nice having that enter the food chain.

      Meet you at Red Lobster!

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    6. Re:what are the chemical dispersants? by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 5, Informative

      Sorbitol esters. Basically modified sugar alcohols. An example of this class of compounds is the Polysorbate 80 that is used to emulsify mild fats in ice cream.

      Extremely biodegradable and pretty unlikely to cause any environmental damage.

    7. Re:what are the chemical dispersants? by TubeSteak · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Those who think letting the oil sink is a bad idea are a distinct minority. ...
      There are creatures that will be effected by oil on the sea floor like crabs and such, but it's still better than letting it run ashore.

      I don't think you understand the full consequences of oil on the sea floor.

      Every time a big storm comes through,
      (and this is the Gulf of Mexico... hurricane central)
      the sea floor gets stirred up and oil gets carried to shore.

      The gulf coast is going to have oil contaminations problems for years.

      --
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      o0t!
    8. Re:what are the chemical dispersants? by AndersOSU · · Score: 3, Informative

      The gulf coast is going to have oil contamination for years regardless of whether the oil is dispersed or not. Many years of lower concentration contamination is likely favorable to saturating the swamps and estuaries with oil now.

      Further, my understanding is that agitated dispersed oil is likely to spread out in the full 3 dimensions of the gulf of Mexico, which isn't good, but it's less bad than having it bob to the surface or concentrate on the bottom where it bio-accumulates in the few deep sea bottom feeders.

      Remember when your high school chemistry teacher told you that dilution isn't the solution to pollution? Well when containment isn't an option - like with an oil spill, dilution is preferable to concentration.

    9. Re:what are the chemical dispersants? by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 2, Funny

      The average survival time for a cleaned bird is 1-5 days, from the last data I have seen.

      You misread the report. "Cleaned bird" is the internal code name for a line of Seagate hard drives.

      --
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    10. Re:what are the chemical dispersants? by Mindcontrolled · · Score: 2, Informative

      I can only give you a German source. They cite German biologists, who speak from their experience from an oil spill in the North Sea, amd some World Wildlife Fund guy who has data from the "Prestige" spill in spain, where an intensive cleaning effort was made. He is basically saying "If you can catch them at all for cleaning, they are already too far gone."

      --
      Ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
    11. Re:what are the chemical dispersants? by KevinIsOwn · · Score: 5, Informative
      This is a great article, so here are some of the main points for those who don't speak German:
      • Birds will attempt to clean themselves with their beak and tongue even despite the terrible smell and taste of the oil. Birds surviving cleaning then generally suffer from kidney and liver problems resulting from the oil ingestion.
      • On the Spain and French coast, thousands of birds were captured after an oil spill and cleaned. Of those, only 600 survived the cleaning and of those 600, many were dead within 7 days.
      • The WWF confirms that birds covered in oil are generally not savable once they've been captured.
      • The survival rate of birds depends heavily on the type of oil and the amount of oil that is on the birds.

      The article does not report this, but other articles have noted that this oil is mostly mixed with water (more than previous spills). This could give hope that more birds than normal can actually be saved.

  7. Re:This thread is worthless without pics by halivar · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Consider R'ing TFA. Second link has pics. Dear Lord, people, who in the world ties your shoes in the morning?

  8. D'ome! by JustOK · · Score: 2, Funny

    They tried it on Springfield.

    --
    rewriting history since 2109
  9. The "dome" is called a cofferdam. by Edgetek · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The cofferdam, although not being tried in this deep of water is really their best option at this point.

  10. Re:This thread is worthless without pics by dunezone · · Score: 2, Funny

    No need to tie Velcro shoes.

  11. Re:And - It WORKS!!!! by sunking2 · · Score: 2, Informative

    This was done the old fashioned way using remote submersibles and capping the pipe with a valve.

  12. Should have had these waiting on the shelf by spike2131 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I've been amazed at the Oil industries apparent inability to do any contingency planning. If this dome technology is known to be the best quick-fix for containing this type of oil leak, they should have had a few of them already built and sitting on a back lot in Port Arthur, just in case.

    Instead, they have to construct them from scratch when the emergency presents itself. That's resulted in a huge waste of time as the clock is ticking and the environment becomes more and more damaged.

    Having spares would have been a cheap insurance policy. Don't these people even think about risk mitigation?

    --
    SpyDock: Scientific Python in a Docker container
    1. Re:Should have had these waiting on the shelf by Shakrai · · Score: 2, Informative

      Don't these people even think about risk mitigation?

      They did. They had a blowout valve in place that was supposed to kill the oil flow. It failed. Not something that has ever happened before and not something that could have been predicted.

      We could conduct offshore drilling for the next hundred years and probably not see another failure via this route.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    2. Re:Should have had these waiting on the shelf by canajin56 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Risk mitigation implies you believe there is a legitimate risk, which scares voters, which scares politicians. And, after the fact, it's way easier to say "We had know way of knowing X could happen resulting in Y damages" than "We had a contingency plan in place, so X only resulted in Z damages". No matter how much smaller Z is than Y, people will hate you more for it. Because you knew it could happen, therefore, you LET it happen, you are a villain! But if you were "caught totally unawares", you're the victim. Hell, you're the hero if you even slightly mitigate the damages.

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    3. Re:Should have had these waiting on the shelf by spike2131 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      So they put all their faith in a blowout valve that apparently had an unanticipated failure mode. That's not risk mitigation, that's as assumption that, since you don't recognize the risk, there is no risk.

      One layer of protection here was far to thin. In Norway and Brazil they require that wells also have remote control shutoffs. That would have been another layer of protection.

      Keeping extra domes around would have been another layer of protection - a relatively low cost "when all else fails" measure. Seems like they didn't do it because they had too much confidence that all else couldn't possibly fail.

      They were wrong.

      --
      SpyDock: Scientific Python in a Docker container
    4. Re:Should have had these waiting on the shelf by Abcd1234 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      They did. They had a blowout valve in place that was supposed to kill the oil flow. It failed. Not something that has ever happened before and not something that could have been predicted.

      We could conduct offshore drilling for the next hundred years and probably not see another failure via this route.

      If that's the only failsafe they had, that's a problem.

      They were drilling at extraordinary depths, here, and they must've known that, if something catastrophic *did* happen, it would be exceptionally difficult to deal with. But instead of facing that fact and putting additional risk mitigation in place, they just assumed the risks were low enough that it wasn't worth the additional cost.

      Really, this is a classic example of where government should be stepping in. In reality, as you say, the chances of something truly catastrophic happening are low enough that the cost of additional risk mitigation simply isn't justifiable from a cost-benefit perspective, and so it's incumbent upon the government to force them to take those additional steps.

    5. Re:Should have had these waiting on the shelf by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The part that failed was the remote controll shutoff!

      Except that it wasn't. It was a blowout preventer, and what failed was the automatic cut-off (which should have normally reacted to the spill all of its own). There is no remote control manual shut-off switch (which is precisely the part that is required by law for offshore drilling everywhere except the U.S.).

    6. Re:Should have had these waiting on the shelf by Dan667 · · Score: 3, Informative

      one of the first things cheney did when bush was elected the first time is get the regulation changed so that a backup was not required for off shore drilling.

    7. Re:Should have had these waiting on the shelf by Abcd1234 · · Score: 3, Informative

      Do you have a citation for that? Because if that's true, that's pretty frickin' serious.

    8. Re:Should have had these waiting on the shelf by samwichse · · Score: 2, Interesting
  13. You won't mind if I poop in your yard, then? by spun · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Who pays for the mistakes? Who pays for the environmental impact? If BP were forced to shoulder the entire cost of this mistake, they would go bankrupt. And so, as usual, it is the rest of us who will have to pay. Socialism for the rich, paid for by the poor.

    If you and I lived next to each other, and I ran a pipe from my toilet into your yard, you would be pretty pissed off, wouldn't you? You'd probably demand I stop shitting in your yard. And I would say, "Human civilization can not exist without environmental impact, shit happens, get over your knee jerk reaction and get used to it, hippie."

    --
    - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    1. Re:You won't mind if I poop in your yard, then? by Shakrai · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Who pays for the mistakes? Who pays for the environmental impact?

      You are welcome to try the alternative of not living in an energy intensive society if that would better suit your needs. I hear that sub-Saharan Africa is wonderful this time of year.

      If BP were forced to shoulder the entire cost of this mistake, they would go bankrupt.

      Got a citation for that or are you just making assumptions?

      If you and I lived next to each other, and I ran a pipe from my toilet into your yard, you would be pretty pissed off, wouldn't you?

      Bad analogy, because that implies a deliberate decision was made to cause this oil spill. A better analogy would be that your sewer pipe fails for whatever reason and floods my yard with shit. In that instance I would expect you to clean up the mess and fix the pipe -- actions that are well under way in the Gulf of Mexico.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    2. Re:You won't mind if I poop in your yard, then? by Remus+Shepherd · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Who pays for the mistakes? Who pays for the environmental impact?

      You are welcome to try the alternative of not living in an energy intensive society if that would better suit your needs.

      When did 'energy intensive society' come to mean 'poor people pay when the rich screw up'?

      A better analogy would be that your sewer pipe fails for whatever reason and floods my yard with shit.

      No, a better analogy is that his sewer pipe fails and covers the entire neighborhood with shit...and because cleaning that up would bankrupt him, everyone affected is told to pitch in and give him money for cleaning up his own mess. Screw that.

      --
      Genocide Man -- Life is funny. Death is funnier. Mass murder can be hilarious.
    3. Re:You won't mind if I poop in your yard, then? by Mindcontrolled · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Why exactly is it that the corporate apologists *always* fall back on either a strawman or a false dichotomy? As if there was no alternative between drilling for as much oil as we can get our hands on and living in sub-saharan conditions. As for the cleanup in the Gulf - you realize that the liability of BP is capped by law at a ridiculously low amount? As always, the profit is funneled to the corps, mostly bypassing taxation, while the externalities are offloaded on society. If all those investments into drilling for oil under ever more extreme conditions, which were largely funded by tax-breaks and deregulation, would have been directed to alternative energy sources and infrastructures, we would be quite a bit closer to the point where we could finally stop squandering a valuable chemical resource like oil by burning it.

      --
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    4. Re:You won't mind if I poop in your yard, then? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      When did 'energy intensive society' come to mean 'poor people pay when the rich screw up'?

      When did Shakrai say that it did? He was saying that offshore drilling is not an inherently bad thing; this is nowhere near the same as approving of caps for cleanup costs.

    5. Re:You won't mind if I poop in your yard, then? by Wyatt+Earp · · Score: 3, Informative
    6. Re:You won't mind if I poop in your yard, then? by spun · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Shakrai was implying that the free market will take care of things and BP will shoulder the entire cost of the cleanup. He was also making a false dichotomy by claiming that we either pay the cost of having spills, or have no energy, which is bullshit.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    7. Re:You won't mind if I poop in your yard, then? by PhilHibbs · · Score: 4, Insightful

      No, a better analogy is that his sewer pipe fails and covers the entire neighborhood with shit...and because cleaning that up would bankrupt him, everyone affected is told to pitch in and give him money for cleaning up his own mess. Screw that.

      That analogy fails because his shit pipe is not serving a purpose for the rest of the neighbourhood. Oil drilling is keeping our civilization going - whether you think that's a good thing is another debate, but there are circumstances when society has to take the risks for the critical processes that it depends on. I'm all for reducing our dependence on oil and I'm all in favour of wind farms and tidal generation and orbital solar panels beaming power down by laser and nuclear power plants and thermal funnels and all that, but we are where we are right now and what means we need oil, and to a certain extent we must accept the risks that go with it.

    8. Re:You won't mind if I poop in your yard, then? by Wyatt+Earp · · Score: 2, Informative

      Of course they won't pay for it all, but you said that they can't afford to pay for it, well they can.

      BP could afford to pay every last penny for the damage done and income lost, with 26 billion in income and over 236 billion in assets they can afford it.

      With BP's record here in Alaska of spills and botched cleanups someone should push them into paying for all the damage done in the Gulf, and go after their contractors and everyone else involved.

      BP really should only be on the hook for 65% of the costs.

      RIG Deepwater Horizon rig owner
      BP 65% working interest (operator)
      APC 25% working interest (operator)
      Mitsui 10% working interest (operator)
      CAM Manufacturer of blowout preventer (BOP)
      HAL Provided cementing services to the rig

      Anadarko Petroleum Corp (APC.N) - The Houston company owns a 25 percent nonoperating interest in the well.

      It was built by Hyundai Heavy Industries Shipyard, Ulsan, South Korea in 2001.

      http://www.scribd.com/doc/30850121/Deepwater-Horizon

      If BP can't afford to clean it all up, then they can liquidate and other Supermajors can buy up the assets after the claimants sell it all.

    9. Re:You won't mind if I poop in your yard, then? by Lumpy · · Score: 2, Informative

      Really? so the oil industry is paying the full costs to clean this up? 100% costs, they are writing a check to the Feds for all the costs of the coast guard, navy, etc?

      --
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    10. Re:You won't mind if I poop in your yard, then? by spun · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Okay, how about this: I build a sewer that leaks onto your property accidentally. And I say, "eh, screw you, I'm not paying for it. My liability is capped by the government, YOU pay for it."

      You present a false dichotomy, claiming we either have to pay for these kinds of spills, or use power plants that run on unicorn horns. Sunshine and wind, obviously, are real things and plants CAN run on those. But the point is, it is not an either/or situation.

      I'm not saying, "don't drill." I'm saying, make companies pay for their mistakes. Not the taxpayer.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    11. Re:You won't mind if I poop in your yard, then? by ArcherB · · Score: 2, Funny

      Who pays for the mistakes? Who pays for the environmental impact? If BP were forced to shoulder the entire cost of this mistake, they would go bankrupt. And so, as usual, it is the rest of us who will have to pay. Socialism for the rich, paid for by the poor.

      If you and I lived next to each other, and I ran a pipe from my toilet into your yard, you would be pretty pissed off, wouldn't you? You'd probably demand I stop shitting in your yard. And I would say, "Human civilization can not exist without environmental impact, shit happens, get over your knee jerk reaction and get used to it, hippie."

      If your shit would power my car, I'd welcome it!

      --
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    12. Re:You won't mind if I poop in your yard, then? by Shakrai · · Score: 2, Insightful

      the only industry that would be impacted is transportation based on heavy fuels like jet fuel and diesel and those also have alternatives.

      You do realize that virtually every other industry depends on the transportation sector to move goods around, right? How do you think your food makes it from the fields to the cities? Scotty, beam me up?

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    13. Re:You won't mind if I poop in your yard, then? by Shakrai · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Shakrai was implying that the free market will take care of things

      I said no such thing, don't put words into my mouth.

      BP will shoulder the entire cost of the cleanup

      False. I only said that the cost of the cleanup was as yet unknown and that it was premature to assume that BP couldn't cover it without going bankrupt.

      He was also making a false dichotomy by claiming that we either pay the cost of having spills, or have no energy, which is bullshit.

      No, I said that society comes with an environmental cost. The only thing that's bullshit here is your lies about my previous remarks.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    14. Re:You won't mind if I poop in your yard, then? by bzipitidoo · · Score: 4, Interesting

      you realize that the liability of BP is capped by law at a ridiculously low amount?

      I find it amusing that the industry thought they could get away with that one. That they thought such a law could withstand the will of hordes of enraged and ruined people. No, BP is going to pay far, far more than $75 million. If they could stop the leak right now, and gather up all the spilled oil before it does any more damage, they could live this one down. It may turn out not as bad as feared. Seems unlikely from what I've heard.

      No one has forgotten the Exxon Valdez. If this is worse, and every indication is that it will be much, much worse, this will never be forgotten either. What's a big company's reputation worth? A lot more than a paltry $75 million. To this day, I still sometimes avoid Exxon gas stations. Corporations have learned that they absolutely cannot afford such epic mistakes, no matter what technical limitations in liability they've won with lobbying. There were safety measures they could have taken to avoid all this. Union Carbide didn't survive Bhopal. Piper Alpha is the biggest oil platform disaster ever, but Occidental survived. This one doesn't have as many deaths. But it may be bigger. If that oil leaks for another 3 months, BP's downfall may be the least of the consequences. The entire Mississippi delta, Florida's coast, west and east, and who knows where the loop current and gulf stream might ultimately transport the mess?

      The industry has really shit its nest this time.

      --
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    15. Re:You won't mind if I poop in your yard, then? by TheLink · · Score: 3, Informative

      Speaking of food, most people in the industrial nations also _eat_ petroleum. In the USA the ratio appears to be 13 kcal petroleum energy to produce 1 kcal of food, according to: http://www.jhsph.edu/bin/g/k/What_You_Eat.pdf (25:1 for producing meat).

      I'm not sure if there's enough organic food to go around, at least in the developed countries (there isn't in some undeveloped countries either).

      It is possible to produce lots of crops per area by planting many different types of crops in the same area ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intercropping ) but this is usually more human labor intensive - machines don't tend to cope with that sort of thing as well.

      --
    16. Re:You won't mind if I poop in your yard, then? by PopeRatzo · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If BP were forced to shoulder the entire cost of this mistake, they would go bankrupt.

      All BP's operations on US soil and offshore in US waters should be nationalized.

      If corporations want to have all the rights of people, of US citizens, then they have to be ready to accept all of the responsibilities. A corporate "death penalty" for a screwup of this magnitude is not unreasonable.

      Right now, corporations get to privatize the profits but socialize the risks.

      Human civilization can not exist without environmental impact, shit happens, get over your knee jerk reaction and get used to it, hippie.

      There is a difference between "shitting in my yard" and "covering my entire property with three feet of shit for more than a decade".

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    17. Re:You won't mind if I poop in your yard, then? by Shakrai · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Shouldn't, oh I don't know, their profits be less, to cover the costs?

      That's an idea, but ultimately it's still the rest of us that will be paying for it. If you have a 401(k) or mutual fund account you almost certainly hold some oil company shares and receive dividends from them. Slash their profits through newer taxes and/or fees and you'll either for it with reduced earnings or a higher price at the pump.

      You were NOT implying that BP will shoulder the cost of the cleanup?

      They've said they will, but as I've said it's too early to say with certainty what will happen. Why don't you wait until the cost of the cleanup is known before you make assumptions about whom will pay for it?

      I'm glad that you, too, are tired of the rich stealing from us

      The only thing I'm tired of is hearing people on the left side of the political spectrum blame the rich for all the woes of society. Do you have a 401(k)? Do you own an automobile? Do you eat food? Do you use plastics? Do you purchase goods at the store? You've contributed as much towards this problem as the rest of us have, rich and poor.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    18. Re:You won't mind if I poop in your yard, then? by PopeRatzo · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Do you have an alternative that could replace oil tomorrow?

      Why's it gotta happen tomorrow, Shakrai, or is that another strawman?

      If during the oil embargo of the 1970's, when Americans had to line up to get gas and we had our first national fossil fuel freakout, we'd had a "Manhattan Project" for getting off of fossil fuels, there's a good chance that we'd have not only moved well along the way to cleaner sources of energy, but we'd be probably be energy independent and wouldn't have to fuck around with Iran and Iraq and Saudi Arabia on top of it.

      But when Ronald Magnus Reagan tore down those largely symbolic solar panels on the roof of the White House, he was sending a clear signal to the Oil industry that the party was just getting started, and they wouldn't have to worry about any interruption in the flow of profits for a long time.

      Unless you believe that oil fields are refilling themselves from some magical source at the center of the Earth, there's going to be a reckoning day for fossil fuels. The willingness of generation after generation to let this reckoning day smack our children or grandchildren in the face with a brick sort of gives the lie to all the claims from the Right that they're worried about how budget deficits are going to affect "our grandchildren". If they really cared about the well-being of "our grandchildren" there would be more concern about finding a better way to travel down the road than by burning gallon after gallon of refined flammable liquid, of which there is a finite supply.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    19. Re:You won't mind if I poop in your yard, then? by PopeRatzo · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Do you also realize that if shallow wells along the east and west coast were available then this would not have happened until further into the future?

      So, if we'd only drilled closer to shore, like we did in Santa Barbara when we had that huge oil spill, then suddenly the oil industry would not have tried to cut corners and would have been a lot more responsible and everything would just be fine.

      That's not the way things work when companies are always walking the line between maximum profits and safety. They are always going to use the least amount of precautions that they can get away with, and even if we were to drill 10 feet off the beach in shallow water, there would still be ecological catastrophes.

      You're looking for an easy way with fossil fuels. There is no easy way. Even if we were to collect every drop of oil in the Northern part of the Western Hemisphere, there still comes a time when we have to find other solutions to our energy needs. We can wait for devastating shortages later to decide to do something, or we can start doing something now before we have huge world wars over the dwindling supply of oil.

      I've got no problem paying an extra dollar a gallon to fund a serious, all-out effort to get off fossil fuels. I've got no problem with nationalizing all of BP's US operations until this mess is cleaned up and all the economic damages to the businesses and individuals in the region are paid. But pretending, in 2010, that there's just no end to the cheap supply of oil makes me distinctly uncomfortable.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    20. Re:You won't mind if I poop in your yard, then? by Shakrai · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Why's it gotta happen tomorrow, Shakrai, or is that another strawman?

      Because unless it can happen tomorrow, we are still going to have to extract oil from the Earth and the whole point of my original comment was to condemn those that fail to realize this basic fact.

      we'd had a "Manhattan Project" for getting off of fossil fuels

      I'm getting tired of hearing this. The Manhattan Project cost $2,000,000,000. Wikipedia says that would be around $22,000,000,000 if it was adjusted for inflation. DoE's annual budget for 2009 was $24,100,000,000. That's 109% of the total cost of the Manhattan Project. It's probably 200-400% DoE's stated mission is to end American dependence on foreign oil. How well is that working out for us?

      You need to realize that not all problems can be solved by throwing money at them. If it was a simple matter of money we would have figured this out a long time ago. The sad reality of the situation is that there really aren't a whole lot of non-nuclear alternatives for fossil fuels that can compete with them in terms of energy density. Nuclear, hydro and wind are a decent bet for replacing fixed energy production/consumption (power plants, factories, houses, etc.) but won't work so well for mobile purposes (ships, planes, automobiles).

      But when Ronald Magnus Reagan tore down those largely symbolic solar panels on the roof of the White House

      Yes, it's all Ronald Reagan's fault that the laws of physics conspired to make hydrocarbons an easy to extract energy dense resource.

      If you really want to debate a complicated issue like energy policy by blaming one man for it's failure, I would see your Ronald Reagan and raise you a Jimmy Carter. Carter's decision that the United States would not reprocess spent nuclear fuel created the nuclear waste issue and removed a carbon free energy source from the table. One would think that a US Naval Officer with reactor training would have known better, but there you go....

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    21. Re:You won't mind if I poop in your yard, then? by Shakrai · · Score: 3, Informative

      Man, you do love you some strawmen. GP's post is clear, with the reference to RR and the solar panels, that problem is one of will, not money. Also,

      No, the GP said that we need another Manhattan Project to solve our energy woes. I pointed out that DoE's annual budget exceeds the total cost of the Manhattan Project, thus it would seem apparent to anyone that another project on the scope of the Manhattan project will not even scratch the surface.

      Besides, the focus on solar rather misses the point. Solar is next to useless for mobile applications (ships, trucks, planes) that are the primary consumer of oil derived hydrocarbons. If you want to look at this from a scientific standpoint instead of a political one, which energy source do you see on the horizon with sufficient energy density to displace petroleum in this application?

      I'm sure there's plenty of money to be found elsewhere, especially when, as GP said, you don't have to be occupying half a dozen countries at once.

      No amount of money is going to change the fact that hydrocarbons are the most energy dense non-nuclear fuel.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    22. Re:You won't mind if I poop in your yard, then? by illumin8 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Who pays for the mistakes? Who pays for the environmental impact?

      You are welcome to try the alternative of not living in an energy intensive society if that would better suit your needs. I hear that sub-Saharan Africa is wonderful this time of year.

      That's a false dichotomy. You make it sound like we have only 2 choices: Either deal with oil spills like this, that could have been prevented if BP had installed a $500,000 blowout valve on the well, or live in a tribal village with no electricity or oil.

      What about a company like Norway, who is literally wealthy from their oil production, yet requires their offshore drilling platforms to install sonar activated blowout valves to stop exactly this type of leak? Why can't we do something like that? Simple, common sense solution: you pay $500K to put this safety equipment on your rig or you can't drill. No, this is America, we wouldn't want to mess with the "free market." Free my ass... The market is free to literally fuck over the planet so BP can keep their executives flying corporate jets and lighting their cigars with wads of cash.

      --
      "When the president does it, that means it's not illegal." - Richard M. Nixon
    23. Re:You won't mind if I poop in your yard, then? by keefus_a · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Not that I necessarily agree with the GP, but who gets to define the "clean up" piece of that? If you had a family reunion planned for the weekend would I have to pay for a new venue? If it puddled up and killed the grass, would it be sufficient to just vacuum the puddle or am I responsible for landscaping too? Would you be comfortable swimming in your pool if I just filtered out the chunks or does it need to be drained and scrubbed? Say your house was on the market and you missed 6 weeks worth of potential buyers during the cleanup, what do I owe you for that? What if you found out that I knew about a tree root that had broken through the pipe and I was using an inexpensive patch rather than getting it properly repaired?

      I'm not trying to be an ass about it. I think everyone can agree with the fact that what's done is done. BP hasn't avoided responsibility for stopping the leak, but that's an obvious benefit to them given that their investment is quite literally washing out to sea. They have, however, been very vague with their statements about cleanup. With so many people looking for a get-rich-quick lawsuit I don't really blame them. I don't know how you define the extent of responsibility, but the ultimate impact of this can hardly be estimated. And from my perspective, BP did not have sufficient safeguards or contingency plans in place.

  14. Re:Man. by eln · · Score: 4, Funny

    If this doesn't work, their next option is to wall off the Gulf of Mexico, drain the water, and let the entire thing fill with oil like a gigantic bathtub. Then, we'll get a bunch of old hippies together, throw in a giant effigy, light the whole thing on fire, and have the best Burning Man festival ever!

  15. Re:And - It WORKS!!!! by Abcd1234 · · Score: 4, Informative

    No, the dome isn't even lowered yet. The first leak was sealed using submersibles. Furthermore, it isn't expected that sealing that leak will do much (if anything) to reduce the total outflow.

  16. Re:This thread is worthless without pics by T+Murphy · · Score: 4, Funny

    No need to tie Velcro shoes.

    But you can still try.

  17. Re:Man. by Duradin · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "condemn an entire industry because of one accident" ... one accident and their complete lack of preparedness for it.

    If it was some fly-by-night corp, this would be expected. BP is a bit bigger and more established and should have had measures in place to deal, or attempt to deal, with this sort of scenario. And considering they seem to cook off a rig or two (in the event hurricanes don't do it for them) when ever it looks like oil prices aren't where they want them to be at they should at least be prepared to deal with the cleanup.

  18. Re:Man. by Abcd1234 · · Score: 4, Informative

    I'd like to know how this dome is supposed to work in rough seas. The oil is going to be contained within the dome and brought to a surface ship. What happens when that surface ship can't maintain position due to inclement weather? Hurricane season starts in another few weeks....

    Probably the same way the original rig, which was a semi-submersible, dynamically positioned platform, was controlled: via a system of computer-controlled engines which maintain the vessel's position over the drill site.

  19. Re:Man. by piquadratCH · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Please tell me you aren't someone who is going to condemn an entire industry because of one accident. No human enterprise ever attempted managed to get underway without mistakes.

    If it's an industry where one mistake translates to environmental and economical damage on the scale we are witnessing at the gulf coast right now, then yes, condemning (and perhaps even abolishing) said industry may be the right thing to do.

  20. Re:Man. by rrhal · · Score: 3, Informative

    What's wrong with offshore drilling? Please tell me you aren't someone who is going to condemn an entire industry because of one accident. No human enterprise ever attempted managed to get underway without mistakes. The important thing here is to learn what went wrong and take steps to ensure that it doesn't happen again in the future.

    What went wrong was believing the the oil companies when they said they had a plan in the first place. When ever there's a mistake we get boned. Every time - this isn't just an isolated case - the industry has a 100% track record with major oils spills. The contingency plan that was supposed to keep this from happening didn't get implemented or just wasn't sufficient.

    For better or worse human civilization can not exist without environmental impact. The knee-jerk reaction to this unfortunate incident by certain politicians is disappointing to say the least.

    It is unfortunate that the knee-jerk reaction of a certain number of politicians is going to be to defend the oil companies and their actions will predictably be enough to keep us from making any real progress.

    --
    All generalizations are false, including this one. Mark Twain
  21. Alternatives? I'd like to see them tried... by cdrguru · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Let us assume for a moment that the USA is pushing the world towards a climate catastrophe at an ever-increasing pace. Millions of people will die if nothing is done to stop this. We are getting ever closer to some "tipping point" where doing anything will be impossible and we just get to stay on the ride until the very end.

    Sounds dire, right?

    OK, so now we have this oil well accident that some want to call an ecological disaster of unimaginable proprotions. That this accident illustrates how incredibly stupid it is to drill for oil, and even worse to do so in some ecologically sensitive area.

    Fine. Let's stop. How about if we give people a chance here to explore alternatives. We should stop all oil imports, all oil refining and just say it is over. The Oil Age has ended. This sort of alternative action would actually do something and be quite different than a lot of hand-wringing and people protesting without any real effect. Sure, there would be some immediate impact and people would die - perhaps fewer than are killed each day on highways.

    I'd say after six months of this we might be able to carry on an intelligent debate on the real issues. Right now, I'm not seeing a lot of that. There is plenty of hand-wringing and plenty of pontificating on how bad things might be in the future.

  22. Re:Starting to see things differently by rotide · · Score: 5, Insightful

    There is a big difference between 1-2 million birds dying in one geographic location over a short amount of time versus hundreds of millions spread relatively evenly across the globe. It also doesn't stop at birds. Crabs, clams, crawfish, fish, etc, etc.

    Roughly a quarter million people die each day. That doesn't mean that wiping out the population of Buffalo NY every now and again is "ok". It would simply devastate the area (for other humans who live around there, etc.. probably good for the environment tho...).

    I know this stuff happens naturally and I get that. Natural disasters have more or less hit the "reset" button on the planet a few times. But going out and causing it (intended or not) is stupid and entirely preventable. Just because an asteroid or another event pretty much wiped out life on the planet in the past doesn't mean that killing/poisoning large quantities of life now, no matter how small in comparison, is a-ok!

  23. Re:Man. by MightyMartian · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I'm would be all for off-shore drilling if:

    1. There was a constant inspection regime paid for entirely by the industry. In other words, there is an armed government official with absolute power to stop drilling, and his salary paid entirely by whoever owns the well and the platform.
    2. All caps on liability were removed and the owners of the well and platform were forced to pay all costs of a spills, without limit of any kind.
    3. Any evidence of ignoring of safety requirements would lead to lengthy prison sentences for all involved, and a ban on the companies involved in the accident of no less than five years from any extraction.

    --
    The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
  24. Fun things to watch by vlm · · Score: 5, Informative

    Fun things to watch in the news coverage:

    Pressure creep. A gross estimate is about a PSI per foot of well depth. Its unlikely the actual pressure at the bottom of the well could exceed 20K PSI. Whats squirting out the top, order of magnitude less. Maybe, extreme cases, you can go plus or minus 50%, maybe. So, people whom know what they're talking about, knowing the drilling mud was around 18 pounds per gallon, and roughly how deep the well is, pretty much know how much pressure the stuff is boiling out of the well. However, the breathless journalists and political hacks feed on each other and one up each other for dramatic reasons. The wildest screamers blew thru 100K psi about two days ago, and I think we're well on our way to nuclear fusion pressure range in journalist-land.

    Flow rate creep. An entire modest oilfield might produce 100K barrels per day. Real flow rate out of this well is probably in the range of 2K to 10K bpd. The screaming journalists and hacks recently blew thru 60K bpd, some beyond 200K bpd. We are rapidly approaching the point where the journalists-types will report figures better suited to the entire production of the country of saudi arabia, etc.

    Unit changes. The flow is probably a modest 5K BPD. That doesn't sound as cool, so a couple days ago the journalists switched to gallons per day. As the flow decreases, I expect the screamers to switch to pounds per day, finally maybe milliliters per day, just to keep the numbers up.

    Flow rate exaggeration. 5K BPD is like a firehose, vaguely. Journalists, over the past few days, have worked their way up on top of each other from adjectives like "dribbling" up to descriptions more in line with a Saturn-V rocket motor at full blast. Its going to flutter the "dome" around like a garden hose hitting a gnat. Uh huh, Yeah right.

    --
    "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
    1. Re:Fun things to watch by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 2, Interesting

      You missed the Loop Current Creep. The concept here is that the spill will get pulled out of the Gulf by the Loop Current and contaminate the East Coast of the US. I saw one diagram that had it all the way up to New Jersey.

  25. Re:Man. by LWATCDR · · Score: 2, Informative

    Actually they really where prepared pretty well for it.
    There where and are many thousands of feet of booms prepositioned and ready to go.
    What no one really seems to be talking about is what happened to the blow out preventor?
    That is the huge question and no one really seems to be asking.
    This should have never happened. The blow out preventor has no less then three ways to shut off the oil and ALL of them have failed?
    This has never happened before! Every rig has one of these and if their is some design flaw it really must be found now.
    That and the explosion that took out the rig was also not an every day kind of thing!

    I see all these flames about the oil industry which may be valid but may not be. Truth is if you dive a car you depend on that oil. So less heat and more light is what is really needed IMHO.
    Oh and BP is going to pay. And since they are not a US company you can bet that Congress will sock it to them big time. The US companies will love that since it will cost them nothing .

    Oh and please don't mention clean energy in reference to this. I am sick of hearing idiot energy policy statements.

    Solar and wind replace at best coal and natural gas. Only 3% or so of the Electricity in the US is made from oil.
    Solar and wind do not compete with Oil at all.
    Electric cars which in theory could reduce our Oil use are not popular yet because of the cost of purchase and range. It has nothing to do with not having enough electricity to run them. Not yet anyway if they sell big then yes the cost of electricity could come into play but we are not there yet.

    Solar and wind can reduce carbon by replacing coal. Frankly as can nuclear and even Natural gas since natural gas produces less co2 than coal but not zero. It does nothing to reduce oil at this time.
    Electric vehicles are good in the city and for some users. Should make great second cars for a lot of people.
    Cost of the vehicle and not the cost of electricity are the problem with those as well as range. We will see how the Leaf does. I hope they do well.

    In the end if you want to be part of the solution and not just bitch about it.
    1. Car pool.
    2. Get a small car.
    3. Check your tire pressure.
    4. Clean out your trunk.
    5. Use mass transit if it is an option.

    Or you could actually try and ration your own gas. Decide how many gallons you can use a week and stick to it.
    If you are short then you stay home from the movies that night, don't drive to the mall to shop, combine trips.
    Really folks this ranting really does nothing.

    --
    See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
  26. Re:Man. by Dragonslicer · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Please tell me you aren't someone who is going to condemn an entire industry because of one accident.

    Because of course this is the first major incident that has dumped vast amounts of oil into the environment.

  27. Re:Alternatives? I'd like to see them tried... by kevinNCSU · · Score: 2, Insightful

    After six months you would be too busy shooting anyone that came to steal what was left of your canned goods and fresh water to have any sort of intelligent debate on the issue.

  28. Re:Man. by Rufus211 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    1. There was a constant inspection regime paid for entirely by the industry. In other words, there is an armed government official with absolute power to stop drilling, and his salary paid entirely by whoever owns the well and the platform.

    So similar to the Mine Safety and Health Administration? Or how about the SEC? We've seen how well those have worked out. Any time you have a small regulatory body working in a single industry you end up with conflicts of interest. Industry players come into the agency to control it, ex-agency employs go to industry to show how to game it, and lots of expensive dinners all around.

    2. All caps on liability were removed and the owners of the well and platform were forced to pay all costs of a spills, without limit of any kind.
    3. Any evidence of ignoring of safety requirements would lead to lengthy prison sentences for all involved, and a ban on the companies involved in the accident of no less than five years from any extraction.

    Both of those amount to "bankrupt any company that has an incident". Remember that for 2) "pay all costs, without limit" actually means "pay all costs until the company goes bankrupt". While that might sound great to you in theory, in practice it's a terrible idea. Take a look at Arthur Anderson - exactly what you describe happened to them after Enron. Did 85,000 employees that had absolutely nothing to do with Enron deserve to have their lives thrown into chaos as the company imploded? Also bankrupting BP wouldn't really do anything structurally - the other big oil companies (Shell, Exxon, etc) would just pick up the pieces and everything would go on as if nothing happened.

    The only thing I agree with you on is the need for criminal action against directors. Far too often companies see regulatory fines (and appeals to avoid them) as simply part of the cost of doing business, as is blatantly obvious in the case of Massey's WV mining operation. Start threatening criminal action against supervisors for repeat offenses and they'll suddenly have a real incentive to implement real protocols.

  29. Re:Simpsons Did It...... by eleuthero · · Score: 2, Funny

    unless... Bill Clinton and others are successful in their campaign to change the restrictions on the presidency... and if we see Taco Bell buy out all the other restaurants in the US, you'll know where we're headed.

  30. Re:Alternatives? I'd like to see them tried... by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 3, Insightful

    OK, so now we have this oil well accident that some want to call an ecological disaster of unimaginable proprotions. That this accident illustrates how incredibly stupid it is to drill for oil, and even worse to do so in some ecologically sensitive area.

    Yes we have some people making these claims. These people are irrational or have an agenda. The fact of the matter is that all that the actual damage we have documentation of so far (despite all the journalists looking for disaster evidence) are one dead jellyfish and two birds that needed to be cleaned of oil contamination. Otherwise no significant oil contamination in ANY sensitive marshes or wetlands.

    The fact is that oil is itself a product of natural biological processes, and nature does have mechanisms for dealing with it over time. The Gulf itself is naturally and continuously contaminated by seepage from oil deposits, to the tune of an estimated 2,000 barrels a day. Every day. Over a history of millions of years. The ecology there has adapted to deal with oil, although not the large quantities from a point source like this incident without some damage.

    The fact is that once this spill is contained the ecosystem will recover. It might seem to take forever if you are a fisherman working those waters, but to call it an ecological disaster is just silly.

    The only true ecological disasters this planet faces is the accumulated biosphere pressure of human overpopulation and the occasional asteroid strikes.

  31. Re:Tax from oil goes in government fund by lotzmana · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Yes. This very low cap of the liability is a prime example of successful lobbying in DC.

  32. Re:And - It WORKS!!!! by Ironhandx · · Score: 2, Funny

    I'm far enough away from this whole thing that I *almost* want the failure analysis engineering team to deem it necessary to either seal it or burn the reserves via nuke.

  33. Re:Man. by blair1q · · Score: 3, Interesting

    BP owns the oil lease, and are responsible for everything that happens there, including safety and disaster mitigation.

    When BP contracted to someone to put the rig in place and drill, they set the safety standards for their contractor to follow, and were responsible for ensuring performance to contract.

    When your employee doesn't follow your rules, it's as much your fault as theirs.

  34. Re:Fun things to watch - you forgot Fault Creep by meekg · · Score: 5, Funny

    0) "It's not leaking"
    1) "It wasn't us"
    2) "It's just one mistake"
    3) "The media is making it all worse"

    4) (still pending) "It's because the liberals hate nukes"

    I'm glad you are concentrating on what's important.

  35. A Good Primer to Explain the Problem by bradorsomething · · Score: 2, Interesting

    IAA(non-certified)PE, although I don't work for any of the companies in question.

    Although drilling is a cowboy science, there are a few concepts to it that are not immediately obvious and help explain what they're doing. I'd like to define the problem a little bit better, which may actually lead to someone finding a better answer.

    The problem that they're facing is that there is a pipe placed in a hole down many thousand feet into an oil reservoir, most likely at the edge of a salt dome. The reservoir is at very high pressure (which is common in the GoM and one of the benifits of drilling here), and effectively we have an uncapped fire hydrant spewing high pressure fluid into the ocean, which floats up and producing the lovely oil sheen. As you'll notice, all attacks follow this vein... capping the end of a wildly spewing fire hydrant. My personal opinion isn't really relevant, but hey, they've got to show they're trying all options.

    During drilling we control well pressures during drilling with heavy mud fluids, which provide counter-pressure and keep this problem in check. From a discussion on a plane yesterday with someone in well completions, they had set a plug in the drilling fluid (probably a brine at this point, replacing the mud) but may not have tested it well enough, and enough gas escaped from below the plug to displace the drilling fluid with a large bubble of gas. The low density of the gas created an unstable pressure system, and allowed the pressure below to burst through the plug and cause a kick, sinking the rig. Note that rigs tend to drill many wells at the same location now, spreading them out using directional drilling but not actually moving the rig. When we drill a well and a production platform is not yet in place, we temporarily cap the well... using the same process that didn't go so great this time. So when the drilling platform sank, any already drilled and capped wells were likely damaged as well. These are likely easier to shut off due to properly operating subsurface safety valves being in place (required in the GoM), and possibly BoP stacks being in place still as well (not likely but maybe? usually these are removed after drilling).

    So here we are, with the BoPs not working on this one well, and it's gushing oil. In most situations we drill a relief well, because when we intersect the gushing well, our wellbore is full of drilling mud, and we can kill the flow by using extra-heavy mud weighs to stifle flow right at the source. This is, in my opinion, the best and most complete option. The problem to this method is that it takes days/weeks, not hours/days, and we want an "hours/days" solution. Hence the multi-million-dollar "cork" they are trying to place on top of this fire hydrant. I see estimates of 3 months in the news for the relief well being effective, and I think that's a bit high but reasonable. "Off the cuff" (do not use this as a real estimate) I like to guess about 500 feet of drilling a day, and this well is 13,000 feet, but that's certainly much too optimistic in this case.

    Here is a link to an event similar to this one near Australia

  36. Good intentions but... by sjbe · · Score: 2, Insightful

    1. There was a constant inspection regime paid for entirely by the industry. In other words, there is an armed government official with absolute power to stop drilling, and his salary paid entirely by whoever owns the well and the platform.

    Bit of a conflict of interest there don't you think? Do you seriously expect an inspector to readily shut down production on the person that pays their salary? If so you are FAR more optimistic and trusting of human nature than I am.

    2. All caps on liability were removed and the owners of the well and platform were forced to pay all costs of a spills, without limit of any kind.

    I'm not aware that there are any caps on liability (please cite if you know of any) other than the flesh eating lawyers employed by the oil companies. Given the results of previous litigation the oil companies seem to be able to defend themselves rather effectively.

    3. Any evidence of ignoring of safety requirements would lead to lengthy prison sentences for all involved, and a ban on the companies involved in the accident of no less than five years from any extraction.

    Sounds great on paper but the problem is in the details. How do you decide who goes do jail and who doesn't? It is NOT an easy question to answer. Furthermore the companies involved are huge multinationals. BP isn't an American company and most of their revenue does not come from the US. Explain to me how you plan to shut down BPs operations in the US gracefully and not seriously disrupt the energy prices and product flow. If you think that is a simple thing to do you haven't really thought about it.

  37. Re:Man. by moosesocks · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I think a lot of people are very interested to learn why the Blowout Preventer failed, given that they have multiple failsafes, and are built to account for this exact sort of incident, including two "shear rams" that should have been able to cut through anything stuck in the valve to seal it.

    BP's got a poor track record, and should be sued into oblivion if we find out that they tampered with or disabled safety measures on the BOP.

    However, there's no evidence of this just yet, and several companies were involved with this particular rig at the time of the incident.

    From what I've been reading, the BOP failure could either be narrowed down to a complete, colossal screw-up by BP, or a Rube Goldberg series of events that prevented the BOP from working.

    Obviously, we'll be seeing many new safety measures installed on all current and future BOPs, as well as ROVs that can supply sufficient hydraulic power to close the shear rams in the event of a multiple system failure.

    --
    -- If you try to fail and succeed, which have you done? - Uli's moose
  38. Well of course, you dingbat by Petersko · · Score: 2, Informative

    "What went wrong was believing the the oil companies when they said they had a plan in the first place... the industry has a 100% track record with major oils spills."

    Let me tell you why your claim is busted thinking.

    There are hundreds of spills that you don't hear about that could have been major spills. However, the oil companies have detailed plans and procedures for how to deal with them. As a result, these spills don't become major ones, and they don't count in your grand analysis. Of course the companies have a 100% track record with major oil spills - but what percentage of "potentially" major spills do they make up? You might instead say 99% of potentially major spills are successfully contained.

    When a major spill happens people like to point and say, "Oh - they have no plan!", like there's some freaking awesome magic plan wand the oil companies could wave over the situation. Thing is, once it's a "major spill", there's no good plan. There's no easy way to deal with loose crude in large volumes on land, let alone 5000 feet under the surface of the ocean. The plan is exactly what they're doing - booms, dispersants, and now this tool they're going to try. Failing that they dig another well.

    "The contingency plan that was supposed to keep this from happening didn't get implemented or just wasn't sufficient."

    That remains to be determined. It wasn't just one plan - there were redundant precautions. Multiple equipment failures might have overcame the perfectly sound plan that works on thousands of rigs today. Maybe they got a pressure kick that nobody has ever encountered before. No matter how many redundancies you put in something, there is ALWAYS a scenario to failure. There are something like 5600 rigs drilling at present. They've got their shit together, or you'd be knee-deep in crude.

  39. Re:Man. by Chris+Burke · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The problem with your assumption is that this is destroying an ecosystem. Do you even know what crude oil is? It's a naturally occurring, additive free, organic substance. It doesn't rampantly kill life on contact like say, mustard gas.

    It's not an assumption, because this is not the first oil spill ever.

    And yes I know what crude oil is, do you know that "naturally occurring, additive free, organic substance" and "harmless" are not adjectives?

    Nobody is claiming it's going to instantly kill anything on contact. But if you had any idea of the environmental damage caused by previous spills, you wouldn't be talking like this "naturally occurring" substance isn't going to cause any problems in the quantities and concentrations here. Go ask an actual biologist or environmental scientist or anyone who has actually studied the impact of oil spills if they're concerned about this "organic substance". If they say that yes they are, make sure to remind them that the oil is additive free!

    Oil naturally leaks in plenty of places on the planet. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/05/090513130944.htm

    You realize that article is talking about oil seeping out over an extended period of time, filtered through and partially biodegraded passing through ocean floor sediments before it even reaches the ocean water? Not pumped out through a cleanly bored holed designed to maximize pressure and thus output. The Exxon Valdez spill wouldn't have been a big disaster if the oil had been leaked out slowly over twenty years, and 11-110 of them wouldn't be a big issue on the time scales it took it to reach that level of concentration in the soil.

    It does kill some animals fairly quickly, but it also feeds algae and other microorganisms as well as plant life on the shore. I expect that the "fallout" from this spill will hurt the fish and shrimp industries this year, but in the coming years, they will have bumper crops. I'm not saying this isn't an environmental incident, I just fail to see the doomsday scenarios that everyone is talking about.

    Yeah, now who's making assumptions? Fail is the operative word here. Here's a couple links: http://www.answers.com/topic/exxon-valdez-oil-spill and http://www.eoearth.org/article/exxon_valdez_oil_spill showing how the environmental impact and disruption of ecosystems was ongoing ten and even twenty years later. There's plenty more on teh googles. Fishing was disrupted for multiple years, and catches have never recovered. Mortality remains high among contaminated fish and other animals.

    It's not about doomsday from one spill, it's about damage to ecosystems that are already stressed. It's about idiots saying that it's not such a big deal so lets not stop doing it, ensuring that there will be subsequent stresses.

    --

    The enemies of Democracy are
  40. Re:Man. by winwar · · Score: 3, Informative

    "The blowout preventer failing is unheard of in the oil industry."

    A 1999 government report found at least 117 failures. Amazing what you can do with a simple google search.

    http://www.mms.gov/tarprojects/319/319AA.pdf

    Anyone who says otherwise is clueless or lying or both.

  41. Re:Alternatives? I'd like to see them tried... by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 2, Informative

    YET. Calling the matter closed when the vast majority of the oil spill has yet to reach shore is vastly too premature.

    There is no particular evidence that the oil spill is inexorably destined to reach land. The spill size is currently shrinking due to various containment efforts. And likewise calling it a world changing environmental catastrophe is vastly premature when the evidence of damage is slight indeed.

    The Brown Pelican, which only just recently was taken off the endangered species list, does not.

    Oh poppycock. This does not endanger the Brown Pelican - a bird whose range covers the east, gulf and west coasts of the US, and extends all the way south to Chile.

    And over the entire gulf. And filtered through ground sediments, not pumped up at high pressure through a bore hole. Really, people keep bringing up natural seepage, but it really just shows the contrast between nature and off shore oil rigs.

    Filtered through sediments? Nonsense. You can see globs of it rising to the surface in seepage areas.

    The ecosystem, as in the particular ecosystem that exists there today, may not. Nature has recovered from the annihilation of over 50% of all species in a (geologically) brief period of time, but plenty of ecosystems were lost in the process.

    Nature and ecosystems are not static; they are in constant flux and have a high degree of resiliency and adaptability. The only real danger is that man's population growth extends to a point where it strips the planet of its biosphere to the point where recovery in not possible.

  42. Not necessarily by zogger · · Score: 2, Insightful

    If there is an all out no holds bar war against Iran, and it spirals out of control when China, Russia and Japan get real antsy about things, plus losing one third of the planet's oil supplies within a few days...we might not have the time to do much of anything, plus the expense would be huge.

    We can do it now, but not later, the changeover costs would be un-doable. Make sub prime so called crisis look like a 7-11 stickup. There are too many potential planet impacting black swan type events that could really screw the pooch on a smooth peaceful and economical transition to alternatives to petroleum. And once something bad happens like that, the race to own the remaining supplies could further exacerbate potential bad news situations, ie, major resource wars. Real wars, not little teeny wars like we have now.

    I agree with Ratzo, we needed a huge push starting back right after the OPEC embargo, and we dropped the ball bad. It stagnated after the tax credits ran out in the mid 80s, and weren't renewed until very recently (and I think they should come back at a full 100% to stimulate alternatives), and the oil industry all of a sudden flooded the planet with cheap oil as well back then, real cheap. That worked, killed off solar and the push for electric cars, etc for two decades more or less. They did not want any alternatives to their products to succeed. They *like* having energy monopolies and cartels, makes big money constantly with vendor lockin.

    We had electric cars a century ago. Heck, jay leno owns one, and the original batteries still work! This BS that electric vehicle aren't practical until they can go 300 miles with an onboard charge is nuts. We've had that "solution" for a long time now, it is called the 50 mile, they could build it today relatively cheaply, electric car, then the generator trailer, for those occasional long trips where you need to go that far. Most people just do not need a 300 mile range day to day to day vehicle, they just don't drive that far except once in awhile. The generator trailer could be rented for longer trips, or owned by the driver and used as an emergency whole house generator as well, for those times it is needed. This would work until such a time as they really do improve the batteries, and the battery pack doesn't cost more than the rest of the vehicle. We have boutique car builders now with examples, and home DIY guys have proven that the tech exists just swell for an electric commuter car.but no majors have them forsale yet. "coming soon" and in the meantime, look at these hydrogen million dollar prototypes we have...nuts. Or they want to push hybrids, the most rube goldberg of designs.