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In UK, Hacker Demands New Government Block Extradition
Stoobalou writes "Pentagon hacker Gary McKinnon has called on the newly elected British government to put its money where its mouth is and tear up his extradition order. US prosecutors have been trying to get McKinnon before a New Jersey court for seven years after they caught him hacking into US military and NASA computers looking for evidence of UFOs. David Cameron, the newly elected prime minister, and Nick Clegg, the deputy prime minister, had both voiced their support for McKinnon's campaign against extradition. Other ministers in the coalition government had branded the extradition unjust. Clegg had even joined McKinnon's mother, Janis Sharp, on a protest march."
David Cameron: Gary who?
Nick Clegg: Um, yeah well, nice bloke that Barack Obama, isn't he?
(thats my guess anyway).
Maybe crimes comitted in the UK should be prosecuted there as well. Say he fired a cruise missile at the whitehouse from the UK (not that far fetched in this day and age) should he be tried in the UK?
http://michaelsmith.id.au
Expecting politicians to turn vague electioneering rhetoric into actual action.
McKinnons case will be quietly shuffled off to some under secretary to "look into" and once the media have lost interest he'll be on a plane to Dulles.
Fire, I'll take you to burn
Fire, I'll take you to learn
I'll see you burn!
You fought hard and you saved and learned
but all of it's going to burn
And your mind, your tiny mind
you know you've really been so blind
Now 's your time burn your mind
You're falling far too far behind
Oh no, oh no, oh no, you gonna burn
Fire, to destroy all you've done
Fire, to end all you've become
I'll feel you burn!
You've been living like a little girl
in the middle of your little world
And your mind, your tiny mind
you know you've really been so blind
Now 's your time burn your mind
you're falling far too far behind
so Linux, just give it up and go home!
and burn !!
That was so long ago. And he never hacked into any important or valuable computers, only webservers.
Parties in opposition frequently seem to criticise what the government does for the sake of it. Is this just another case of "now its business as usual" or did they really believe in what they were saying and ensure that legislation brought in to counter terrorism isn't used randomly against British citizens.
Whilst it's undeniable I think that he did actual do it, there are a lot of people that cannot see why he should be extradited. The UK already has adaquate laws for the prosecution of the crime, and the crime was committed in the UK so it has always seemed odd to a lot of people that he should have been extradited, especially with the massive imbalance in potential sentence between the UK and US for this. I rather suspect that that imbalance is what causes many people much disquiet.
Cameron is not going to be too concerned either way one suspects, although he will probably lean towards not extraditing him. Clegg however as a hard and a fast Liberal is almost certainly going to move all that he can to ensure he is not extradited. The one person to consider though in all this is Kenneth Clarke, whos is the Justice Secretary. He has interesting views - he once called Camerons plans for a British Bill of Rights "Xenophobic and a legal nonsensity". Quite what his feelings are on the extradition - and he gets the ultimate say as Justice Minister are as yet unknown. From what little I know of him personally I suspect he would favour prosecution in the UK but for all that his views are relatively unknown.
n/t
"And he never hacked into any important or valuable computers, only webservers."
Oh right, so webservers arn't an important part of the internet then?
Whatever the rights and wrongs of Mckinnons case the statement you made is just moronic.
And as for it being long ago, so was WW2. Perhaps we should just let old nazi murderers have a nice peaceful retirement too?
The treaty was written and signed to combat terrorism. Is he a terrorist? I doubt it. Is it worth the cost to get him to the US to be tried? I doubt that too. For fuck sake go after the real terrorists rather than a misguided individual with a mental disorder who believes in aliens. FFS the US should be thanking him for finding security flaws and not selling them to someone else. In this case I say FUCK THE TREATY!
... then how are they going to know how much you earn anyway? Surely you could just tell them anything and end up paying little or no tax?
US prosecutors have been trying to get McKinnon before a New Jersey court for seven years after they caught him hacking into US military and NASA computers looking for evidence of UFOs.
If the government has nothing to hide, then they shouldn't be worried about people trying to search for UFOs. It's obvious that the US government is trying to hide secrets from UFO investigators like Gary McKinnon. To this day the government refuses to acknowledge that unidentified flying objects are a mystery because of their lack of identification.
Now lets seque into reality:
Though I often wonder, that so many thousands of corporate executives can commit crimes with immunity or just a slap on the wrist, and not ONE US president has ever gone to jail for committing a crime, and yet they can spend time and money trying to incarcerate a UFO investigator, people who smoke marijuana, and people who look at pornography. It's amazing how popular democratic fascism has become over the past 30 years.
Ok, first off, this "hacker" with aspergers, if I remember correctly, used a 56k modem, while being constantly high, to scan for windows boxes with blank passwords.... And the US wants to hang him high? Car analogy incoming: If you leave your car (computer system) on the internet (imagine Cuidad Jaurez) with its window down (ports open, blank passwords), and someone comes along and replicates the iPod in your car, still leaving your iPod there, is it really that bad? As for the things he found, he said the most interesting things were lists of "non-terrestrial" officers and lists of ships that don't exist in any US fleet, but again, he was very high, and is therefore unreliable. I just figure this is a honeypot system (or disinfo) setup to track similar attempts from foreign governments, which are good at getting info and keeping it secret, whereas joe schmo 56k modem (I still lol @ this, but remember, wardialing (though it's not what he did) isn't quite so dead as you may think) finds info like this and is like"omg, I found possible evidence of secret spaceships!" Regardless, its just pathetic that even Robert Gates at the time admitted to over 300 successful penetrations, not attempts, of government systems per day! Blank passwords, tsk tsk.
"It's ok, I'm completely secure as long as my iron is off"
"Maybe crimes comitted in the UK should be prosecuted there as well." Well, yeah. And the CPS said that the case wasn't worth persuing. Then the Bush admin passed a law making what McKinnon did a criminal offence (now extraditable) and AFTER THE FACT accused him of the criminal act.
Despite no civilised country allowing ex posto facto laws.
It's a war crime now??? And what about the US soldiers in Germany being brought back to the US so they didn't have to face criminal charges in Germany? Or the friendly fire incident, where the US refused to let the pilots even be questioned..!
Then add in the war crimes of Bush/Blair.
Lastly, what McKinnon did wasn't even a crime when he committed it. That law came in AFTER the act. And now what was not a crime when he did it is now a war crime???
mod parent "sudden outbreak of common sense"
Lets say that I send information about bypassing censorship to someone living in China. Should I be sent to China to be prosecuted about this? Of course not: The deed should be judged based on the laws of the country where I was when I committed the deed. Even if the target is in another country.
Now, you can say "But that isn't illegal in the country in which you live. It is different.". I don't think that changes anything (because it still means that I should be judged by the country in which I am) but let's look at another example where this isn't the case.
Let's say I download the latest blockbuster movie through the bittorrent network. It is illegal here and it is illegal in the USA. Most likely the company that owns the rights to the movie is in USA and it might even be that some of the people I downloaded the movie from (for simplicty's sake, let's even say that all of them) could be located in the USA. Does that mean that I should be sent to USA to be prosecuted instead of being prosecuted by them in the justice system of this country? I certainly don't see the logic here.
The guy lives in UK and was in UK when the crime was committed. As such, can you explain why he should be sent to USA to be prosecuted instead of being trialed in the UK, in a way that is also consistent on your views about the two examples I gave. Naturally, if you disagree with me (that the people in those examples should be sent to China and USA respectively), it becomes a very easy task.
This is what happened to the NatWest Three, a UK based offence against a UK bank. Of course they were extradited to Texas where it was felt they could hit them with more offences for longer sentencing and with an easier conviction (of course there is a huge tinfoil hat conspiracy regarding using these as fall guys in a forced plea bargain to cover up Bush administration involvement in the Enron scandal but that is an argument for another day)
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2003/ukpga_20030041_en_1
It must be me, but I can never bring up to much sympathy for criminals.
Oh, he had aspergers. Okay, fine with me. Lock him in an institution then since by his own admission, he cannot stop himself from breaking the law, therefor the change of it happening again are high indeed.
Maybe it is just because every single criminal has an excuse and somehow their mental disability NEVER EVER has interfered with them before, nor should it after they are let go. Odd that eh? "Your Honor, I am insane so let me go, but I should not be locked up in an insane asylum because the moment I am out of here I am perfectly sane again." Somehow aspergers only seems to show up in people who are clearly a bit off but do not commit crimes or in people who commit crimes where nobody noticed it before or deemed it serious enough to take action.
Facing the consequences of your actions. Must be an out of date concept. Quick find me a disease I can use to get out of it.
And don't mod me down, asperges made me do it!
And perhaps I am just fucking tired of parking my bike outside a busy supermarket and when I come back I find that someone had tried to steal it before noticing it is locked, with hundreds of people around but if you kick the shit of them you are the one going to jail. Frankly this guy gets on my nerves. He has two choices, go to jail and I hope he has the shit raped out of him or be treated as the mentally retarded person unable to be responsible for his actions he claims to be. You can't have it both ways. Either you are free with responsibilities or you are not. Pick one.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
Helena Bachmann / Geneva
is just parroting Overseas American Week,
and her fact checker fell asleep
hacking how to make it really is very interesting.
What is the difference between hacking the Pentagon because you believe in aliens and hacking the Pentagon because you believe in Allah?
Everything.
While the mechanics of cracking system security may be the same, what you intend to do with the information you uncover, and your broader intentions against the US (if any) are very different.
In the case of Aliens, you're not exactly looking to fly planes into buildings, blow up cars in Times Square, or behead journalists. In the case of Allah, these intentions have already been demonstrated rather unequivocally in the real world, so extrapolating threats based on variations of past performance is not unreasonable, nor likely to yield broadly inaccurate predictions. Until flying-saucer nuts start threatening non-believers with death and mayhem, I'll tend to treat them as harmless eccentrics rather than potential terrorists, even when they cross the line and stupidly try to break into military computers.
There's absolutely no reason for the US to go after this guy--he's got a mental disorder, has already been severely chastened for his actions, is clearly not a threat to the US (or anyone else), and isn't likely to survive the so-called 'justice' America has in store for him.
The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
If his bank account was hacked, the hacker wouldn't be facing terrorist charges and extradition without evidence. If his bank account was hacked because the bank didn't secure it, then the bank would be at fault and would have to pay up (including punishment fines).
"professional medical opinion is that he will fulfil his stated intention to commit suicide if extradited to the US for trial"
In a way I would like him to be extradited just so that you have to eat your words. Most people who threaten suicide are bluffing. Those who intend it, get on and do it. It's not difficult to find a doctor who, knowing that nobody can prove them wrong, will be happy to say that the subject is suicidal, in the belief that they are assisting in a righteous cause.
And please don't go on about Aspergers Syndrome, or any other syndrome for that matter. If someone has a syndrome which makes it more likely that they will commit a crime then that is still more reason why I would want them off the streets. It shouldn't be a get-out-of-jail-free card.
For what it is worth I hope he is not extradited, but please spare me the bullshit.
One definition of being authorized is that you have the correct passwords and those passwords were obtained legally. If the system had the default Windows passwords it's reasonable to assume they were left there for anyone who knew those passwords to access.
If you don't have a fence you can yell "Get off my lawn!!!" at me, but you cannot arrest me for trespassing.
The fact he used a 56k modem, was constantly high or hacked windows boxes with blank passwords... is irrelevant.
The US does not want to hang him.
The car analogy doesn't fit.
You also quote McKinnon's claim that he was searching for information about spaceships. I have heard him interviewed. He doesn't sound stupid (unlike you). I dare say he is aware that if he acknowledged searching for anything else it wouldn't do his case any good. It is in his interest to claim that he was doing something loony.
I don't want him extradited. Just thought your arguments were daft.
Not only that, but this whole extradition process must cost a lot. Both the American prosecutors and the British who must analyze the case have more important things to worry about.
I'm interested in anyone's explanation on why would someone have to face a legal process that's not of his country.
Because he committed the crime abroad. Where he was sitting when he commanded the crime to happen isn't relevant, so long as it has an extradition treaty. If you sat in London and hired an assassin over the phone to kill someone in New York, you'd be accessory to murder in New York, not in London.
Gary's a fully-functioning adult with a girlfriend and common sense. His only mental questionability is that he was overconfident; result: he got caught. He's guilty as sin. Extradite the daft bugger and be done with it. It's not like he's facing the death penalty.
Andrew Oakley - www.aoakley.com
Before I gave my opinion: I would like to know, is this guy being prosecuted in the UK? What sentance was imposed? Look for UFOs??? That just doesnt ring true.. Or is the USA the only country with an "area 51"...
Seeing 'Hacker' in the same sentence as 'UK' and 'Government' made me think this story was about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Hacker
"If you think the problem is bad now, just wait until we've solved it." --- Arthur Kasspe
US citizens have been guilty of murder in Iraq and Afghanistan, and yet we do not see them on trial there. Why not?
The lesson I take from this is that it's not a rule that a crime is tried in the place in which it was committed.
..stop calling him that.Pentagon remote-admin-password-guesser sounds better.
There's no patch for stupidity
All he needs to do is rub a bit of boot polish on his face.
Here's another case of a guy who was extradited based on clearly fabricated evidence. Alan Johnson should be dangling from a lamp-post.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
The act is not criminal unless it costs 5grand. Guess what the cost of each count against McKinnon is: 5 grand. Less than 5 grand and it's not a criminal matter and McKinnon can't get extradited through the fast track.
If you sat in London and hired an assassin over the phone to kill someone in New York, you'd be accessory to murder in New York, not in London.
Whilst the American DA might want to extradite he or she might waive it in favour of a British prosecution because quite frankly it's cheaper and departmental budgets don't always stretch to extraditions well. Also it would be the British police investigating it from this end and also they'd be the ones who have the evidence file. It's far easier to prosecute someone with evidence gathered under the corresponding legal system. It would also be more likely if the witnesses to the fact you solicited the murder were British (it's difficult to subpoena someone in another country).
An interesting sidenote to this discussion is the Camilla Broe case (the Wikipedia article is poorly written but gives a good overview). In her case it was a drug-related crime, but the circumstances were similar to this one - there was no real question of her guilt, just the fact that the penalties for the crime are much harsher in the US than they are in Denmark. It ended up being a pretty embarassing case, since the Americans ended up dropping the charges on statute of limitations grounds, so the whole affair was completely needless.
July 4th 1776 was a SAD day!!
The physical location of the perpetrator at the time he or she commited the criminal act defines the crime scene, at least in any sane jurisdiction. Otherwise, you'd have extradition requests from Thailand and a host of other places with lese majeste laws for things people in other countries wrote on their web pages.
A countries penal laws can have provisions for applying in other cases, but those are exceptions to the rule. If a country has arrested someone who committed a crime while he was physically present in said country, then it's that countries f***ing job to put that someone on trial.
The physical location of the perpetrator at the time he or she commited the criminal act defines the crime scene
Are you seriously telling me that the place where the dead body fell to the ground, isn't the crime scene?
Andrew Oakley - www.aoakley.com
Otherwise, you'd have extradition requests from Thailand and a host of other places with lese majeste laws for things people in other countries wrote on their web pages.
That would be why I wrote "so long as it has an extradition treaty". The UK & US probably don't have an extradition treaty with Thailand for stuff people wrote on their web pages. The UK & US probably do have one with Thailand for murder, with conditions such as no torture, no corporal punishment, and in the UK's case, no death penalty.
The UK has an extradition treaty with the US for hacking NATO computer systems. He hacked a NATO computer system. He's getting extradited. What's the controversy here?
Andrew Oakley - www.aoakley.com
... according to MLKJ, is about using power to implement the demands of love. If the institutions of the USA were about anything more than maintaining and proving our ability to dominate or destroy anyone who gets in the way, the response would have been: "This is a criminal act, and we *could* completely ruin your life. But we understand you've got some mental problems, so we'd like to invest some of the resources we would have spent into destroying you into helping you deal with your problems. Don't do it again."
As it stands, I just wish I could effectively insist that these people have no business stealing my money (taxes) and claiming that their existence is somehow of benefit to anyone.
(Tip to the terrorized: If you can't go into a bar without your friend starting fights for you, he's not your friend.)
The UK arrested some guy who allegedly committed an act that's considered criminal by UK laws while being physically present in the UK while committing said act. Why are they even thinking about extraditing him anywhere? It's the UKs job to put the guy on trial and lock him up/fine him if he's found guilty.
The fact that they haven't done so for seven years is simply mind-boggling.
Gary is fine as long as he doesn't leave his own country. Once he sets foot outside of their jurisdiction he falls under a different jurisdiction. My guess: he will not leave his own country.
The fact that they haven't done so for seven years is simply mind-boggling.
USA's demands block the procedure.
There's nothing like $HOME
When are journalists going to learn that cracking != hacking? Is it because "hacking" it too cool of a word to give up, even if it's misapplied?
Of course, that this hacker found evidence of non-terrestrial intelligence is the biggest non-story of the century. We should all be discussing extradition treaties and the conditions of US prisons and not anything having to do with NASA coverup of UFOs. I acknowledge that in this case the evidence is a little sketchy, but it fits into the testimonies of hundreds and hundreds of ex-government employees talking about their connection to the UFO enigma. Whether or not aliens exist is obviously the least important story in human history, especially when compared to whether the Mars rovers have found microbe fossils.
If you close your eyes, plug your ears, and yell La la la! loud enough, maybe all the evidence for non-terrestrial intelligence will go away.
When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him.
Quite naturally. The UK does have laws against such things.
You send the criminals to the other country to be tried and sentenced in order to send a message to the other government that, "Even though this person committed a crime against you, it was not supported by our government and we bear you no ill will."
And prosecuting and putting said person in prison will not do that? I'm not following here. Usually, prosecuting someone and locking them away is a standard way of a government saying "We don't approve of what you did.".
There is some sort of group-think amongst slashdot readers that computer crimes are not crimes at all and should readily be forgiven.
No, but they guy's been in jail for a couple of years now without trial, for something that he could easily be prosecuted for in the UK.
I am saying that he is hardly innocent, and that, at the very least, the UK should give him a token jail sentence as a gesture of good will towards the U.S.
He's been locked up for a couple of frickin' years now. If they put him on trial today and give hime a "token" jail sentence, he'll be out tomorrow for time already served.
The default windows password is no password. Aaargh yourself.
Oh, and for the AC below, you do not have to have a fence, but you cannot prosecute trespassers even if you DO have a fence. If they are partway over your land, you can ask them to leave, BUT they can leave by the shortest route to the nearest public highway. As long as no damage is done (that would need fixing), you have NO RECOURSE to a walker on your land.
The deed should be judged based on the laws of the country where I was when I committed the deed. Even if the target is in another country.
The bomb is planted in Times Square, New York.
You trigger it from a cell phone in London.
Who has jurisdiction on the charge of murder?
The answer has to be the state of New York - otherwise you could potentially escape prosecution for any crime committed by remote control from the high seas or across a state or international border.
YES! 1000 times Yes. If I murder someone in London and drop the dead body in New York, where do you think the crime scene is ?
(Hint: It's not New York.)
>>>
In the US, he faces fifty years in your oh so popular Federal PMITA prison system.
>>>
How 'bout, "Don't do the crime if you can't do the time." Or were there Delta ninjas forcing him to do so at gun point. Man up! Pussy down.
The treaty in question is ridiculously biased - it was brought in by Tony Blair at the height of the Bush fellatio period. British subjects can be extradited to the US for torture on the unsupported word of the US terror police - needless to say there is no reciprocal arrangement!
It is against UK human rights law to extradite people to countries that practice torture and imprisonment without trial. So until Gitmo is shut down he will never actually get to the plane due to last minute injunctions.
The fact that he believes in aliens visiting Earth and thought it was a good idea to hack into Pentagon computers is a solid argument against him having common sense. And him having a girlfriend is in no way relevant to him being a fully functioning adult, boys often have girlfriends even when they are considered to be children, and almost anybody could find themselves a girlfriend should they set their standards sufficiently low.
Now, now, you all should know that extremist religious zealots don't believe in computer science...