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Foxconn Workers Getting Raise With Apple Subsidies

Posted by Soulskill on from the damage-control dept.

hackingbear writes "Workers at Taiwanese electronic outsourcing manufacturer Foxconn are getting a pay raise after a series of 13 suicides, including three in three consecutive days. According to an article by state-run newspaper China Daily, Apple concluded that the main cause of the suicides is low wages. (The media has also attributed the suicides to a variety of other factors — everything from the semi-military style of management, to long overtime, to China's one-child policy, and Foxconn paying too much compensation to the family of suicide workers, thereby encouraging copycat suicides.) Apple plans to subsidize raises using its own products (Google translation; Chinese original here) — the first one being the iPad. This would raise the outsourcing cost from 2.3% to 3% of the iPad's sales price. The article does not say the amount of the raise per worker, but it is rumored to be about 20%, according to other Chinese news sources."

54 of 284 comments (clear)

  1. We can only hope... by deathcow · · Score: 5, Funny

    That enough of their souls are still poured into these incredible, sleek products to maintain the extremely high level of magic and wonder we've become accustomed to finding in each amazingly designed box.

    1. Re:We can only hope... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      That enough of their souls are still poured into these incredible, sleek products to maintain the extremely high level of magic

      Human sacrifice is necessary to maintain high levels of magic.

      Anyway now we see the true cost of doing business in China: becoming infested with socialist ethical concerns. A company I once respected for its aggressive business practices, its devotion to good design and ruthless profit maximization is proposing to do what. Raise workers pay by 20%!?

      That's it Apple, I'm outa here. Now for my next laptop ... which PC manufacturer is down the bottom of the Greenpeace tech rankings at the moment ...

  2. Apple-haters in 3,2,1,... by Space+cowboy · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Because despite the fact that FoxConn make stuff for all sorts of people in the consumer electronics world, all the bile and invective seems to fall on Apple's shoulders.

    No doubt, Apple actually trying to help will be seen negatively too - let's see if any of the subsequent comments say so (my money's on yes...). Honestly, the anyone-but-apple brigade make the fanboys look calm, collected, and sane.

    Simon

    --
    Physicists get Hadrons!
    1. Re:Apple-haters in 3,2,1,... by King_TJ · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Exactly! These people were building products for Dell too (among other well-known computer companies). Wonder if we'll see Dell step up to the plate and offer a larger percentage of their profits to these folks as a pay increase? (I'm betting not.)

    2. Re:Apple-haters in 3,2,1,... by maxume · · Score: 3, Funny

      I blame Apple for the coming increase in suicide rates at competing factories.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    3. Re:Apple-haters in 3,2,1,... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      More important than the fact that Foxconn makes electronics for just about everyone, is that these suicides aren't statistically surprising. I don't have the numbers, but I recall some commenters on previous Slashdot stories working through the math - basically, the factory employs tens of thousands (?) of workers, and China already has a high suicide rate. The suicide rate in this factory, per capita, was actually *lower* than China as a whole.

      I believe there were seven or eight suicides when that other article appeared on Slashdot. Now with 14 the factory's suicide rate is probably on par with China as a whole. Wake me up when we've got 40 or 60 suicides.

      Oh, and presumably the outrage comes from the fact that our corporations are profiting from the despair of mistreated factory workers. To that I say - NO SHIT. Is there anyone who thought these Chinese factories *weren't* sweatshops that mistreat workers?

    4. Re:Apple-haters in 3,2,1,... by grub · · Score: 2


      It's only because apple charges 2-3x as much as their next closest competitor

      Where can I get a work-alike iPad clone that costs me only 33.3%-50% the price of a real iPad?

      --
      Trolling is a art,
    5. Re:Apple-haters in 3,2,1,... by morgan_greywolf · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Because despite the fact that FoxConn make stuff for all sorts of people in the consumer electronics world, all the bile and invective seems to fall on Apple's shoulders.

      Probably because Apple products are 2-3x more expensive than those of their competitors. It's well-known that Apple's profit margins are extremely high compared to their competitors, and that makes people think that perhaps Apple is a bit greedy.

      I'm not saying it's deserved or anything like that, but I can definitely see why people think that way.

      --
      My blog
    6. Re:Apple-haters in 3,2,1,... by Qwavel · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I agree that Apple has been subject to unfair criticism in regard to this problem. This problem is not about Apple in particular - it is more about conditions in China in particular. For example, let's remember the huge number of Chinese miners who die every year due to unsafe conditions.

      By the same token, Apple's offer to subsidize their wages is equally meaningless, though understandable given the unfair criticism they were subject too.

      The changes that are needed are more fundamental.

      Perhaps what we need is more companies like Google who are prepared to make real sacrifices in the name of the fundamental freedoms. What Google gave up in leaving China is enormous - just look at the investment reports.

      I'm sorry that more companies didn't support Google in some way so that the whole saga could have ended better. Nokia, Apple, and MS have instead slipped rather nicely into the void left by Google. Nokia has generally had an excellent record on political issues (e.g. always having the best environmental record) so I had hoped for more from them.

      As a post-script, I will slip in a little gratuitous Apple bashing (since the O.P. requested it and I have let Apple off so far). Though Apple is not to blame for what happened at Foxconn, it is interesting how Apple is starting to resemble a totalitarian state like China - with its giant bureaucracy of appstore censors who won't let bad things be said about prominent politicians or about Apple itself, and because it seems to be creating some sort of competition free zone with the iPhone/iPad (e.g. you shall only get porn from Playboy because they are the designated porn distributors).

    7. Re:Apple-haters in 3,2,1,... by Shadow+Wrought · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Apple invests heavily in marketing. The focus of their marketing is that they are a different company, and they target leftish artist, hipster types. They don't portray themselves as being far different from other companies interested only in the bottom dollar. We aren't surprised when a large company like Dell does business with a large factory in China that is plagued by suicides. We are surprised, not the /. crowd but consumers and their target base in general, that Apple is there, too. That's what makes the difference.

      If Tiger Woods had portrayed himself and marketed himself as the "Bad Boy, Rockstar" of golf, the press related to his affairs would have been different. Because he had branded himself as the good, loving husband and a stand-up role model for children, the press latched onto it more because fo the hypocrisy.

      Same with Apple.

      --
      If brevity is the soul of wit, then how does one explain Twitter?
    8. Re:Apple-haters in 3,2,1,... by mooglez · · Score: 5, Informative

      Because despite the fact that FoxConn make stuff for all sorts of people in the consumer electronics world, all the bile and invective seems to fall on Apple's shoulders.

      No doubt, Apple actually trying to help will be seen negatively too - let's see if any of the subsequent comments say so (my money's on yes...). Honestly, the anyone-but-apple brigade make the fanboys look calm, collected, and sane.

      Simon

      In Finland, all these Foxconn suicides have been reported as happening at a "Nokia contractor", no word of Apple in any of the news posts.

    9. Re:Apple-haters in 3,2,1,... by Hadlock · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Can you imagine being so poor and destitute, with so little prospects for the future that taking your own life for profit seems like the best way to help your family in the long run? All the while some American is working 20 hours a week managing the manufacturing of the product from his pool overlooking some valley in California; his biggest worries is whether or not he can afford his wife buying her third convertible this week, and if he is going to be able to make it down to the yacht club this Sunday. It's sort of hard (or it should be) to take your $10 million bonus for exceeding production goals on a product that people are taking their lives over. Whoever is paying the bills to the manufacturing plant ultimately doesn't matter, some company is going to be the low-hanging fruit (pun intended) and the fact that modern asian manufacturing is actually worse than slavery is the important thing people are trying to highlight here. Plantation slaves in the deep south had it better than many asians working in factories today.

      --
      moox. for a new generation.
    10. Re:Apple-haters in 3,2,1,... by mr_matticus · · Score: 4, Informative

      There's no question that Apple products carry a higher average price than similar products at other companies, but it's absurd hyperbole to claim 2-3x higher, especially based on gross margin. The logic fails entirely since all of this data is part of their corporate financial reports:

      Probably because Apple products are 2-3x more expensive than those of their competitors.

      That would imply that, given other manufacturers having a profit margin of 1%, that Apple would have a gross profit margin of 51 to 68%. Given another manufacturer's more realistic gross margin of 25%, that would mean that Apple's profit margin would be 63%-75%. That is of course not the case.

      Apple's gross margin is closer to 40% (which is indeed higher than most competitors), which means that assuming identical production costs and business costs, Apple's prices are about 15% higher as an absolute cap.

      But gross margin isn't net profit, and it's net profits that are the subject of so much jealousy--gross profit less overhead, in other words. Apple does a lot of its engineering work in house (hiring an OEM to make something you designed is much cheaper than buying something someone else designed from that OEM), and a simple walk through their SEC-reported financials reveals that they also have lower per capita business costs than Dell or Acer, which amounts to a price savings--we'll say it's in the 5% ballpark (though in reality, it's probably a bit more).

      That makes for an 'Apple tax' of at most 10% in shelf price--hardly "2-3x" and similar to the higher-margin premium lines at HP and Dell that subsidize their unnaturally discounted rock-bottom lines.

      It's well-known that Apple's profit margins are extremely high compared to their competitors,

      Even if it were double the gross margin of their large competitors (and the difference isn't that large), it would amount to a price difference of ~25%, about one-quarter to one-eighth your claim.

      In other words, if a product costs Dell $100 to make and grosses 25%, with $13 overhead, net profit is $12 of the $125 sales price. The same product costs Apple $98 to make and grosses 40%, with $10 overhead, making net profits $29 of the $137 sales price. The consumer pays just about 9% more at the store (nowhere near double), but Apple ends up with more than double the profit in dollars.

    11. Re:Apple-haters in 3,2,1,... by cgenman · · Score: 2, Informative

      (for the record, I don't know why this showed up anonymously. That's me up there.)

      --
      The ______ Agenda
    12. Re:Apple-haters in 3,2,1,... by jo_ham · · Score: 2, Insightful

      A huge ripoff to who?

      It's an expensive device, for sure (and I don't have one), but if it does exactly what its purchaser wants, is that a ripoff?

      Like you say, a Dell Mini 10/9 can provide that function for you, but what if I don't want a permanent keyboard? Or I want a tablet-shape?

      Right now, the iPad would be excellent purely as a textbook reader - just my organic chemistry book alone is 1600 pages and is a severe PITA to carry around, so for that I would much prefer the form factor of the iPad over a netbook.

      Based on your figures the price premium is £164, which is quite a chunk of change but I expect that to come down with revision 2 - I'd hardly call it a "huge ripoff", but I am also not going to claim it is right for everyone.

  3. Re:Well this sucks!!!! by aristotle-dude · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Now Apple will jack up the price on iPads by 20%!

    It would raise the cost to Apple by .7 percent per iPad. I think that Apple intends on eating that difference rather than passing it on to the consumer.

    --
    Jesus was a compassionate social conservative who called individuals to sin no more.
  4. The dark, Satanic mills of Apple by Animats · · Score: 4, Funny

    You can do anything you set your mind to when you have vision, determination, and an endless supply of expendable labor.

  5. What about.. by JonJ · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The other companies that are getting their components from Foxconn? Are they doing anything?

    --
    -- Linux user #369862
  6. How about Foxconn itself? by phorm · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Foxconn also sells branded mainboards of their own, etc. How about they just increase the pay at their factories, and up prices a buck or two? Two bucks means nothing to me, if they want to pass that onto the consumer I'm willing to open my wallet.

    1. Re:How about Foxconn itself? by am+2k · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Since all middlemen's shares of the price are percentage-based, raising the price two dollars at the factory probably means that the product will cost an additional $10 or more in the stores

  7. Dang by oldhack · · Score: 4, Funny

    I wish my coworkers jumped off the building.

    --
    Fuck systemd. Fuck Redhat. Fuck Soylent, too. Wait, scratch the last one.
  8. How about reduce their hours by 20% instead... by Gavin+Scott · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I'm under the impression that the workers there already make relatively more than most similar jobs, and a 20% raise doesn't seem like it will make much of a life-changing difference for anyone (especially if they don't have time to spend it :P)

    And just how far can money go to compensate you for hellish working conditions?

    So why not give them some more breaks / shorter hours each day?

    G.

    1. Re:How about reduce their hours by 20% instead... by butterflysrage · · Score: 5, Insightful

      ok, but why are they working massive overtime? Is it because the job requires them to ("do it or you're fired") or is it the pay that requires them to ("If I don't pick up 6 extra shifts I can't pay my rent next month").

      While the 20% will not help the first case, it would make quite the impact on the second...

      --
      the preceding post was not spell checked... suck it.
    2. Re:How about reduce their hours by 20% instead... by amake · · Score: 2, Informative

      Peter Hessler covers this very well in Country Driving. Young migrant workers flock from the poor inland regions to the coasts looking for factory work. They want to work as much overtime as possible 1) because they want to earn as much money as possible as quickly as possible, and 2) because they are far from home and aren't interested in spending time or money on leisure (their "real lives" are back home, and they've come out solely to work).

      Because of this, jobs offering more working hours and less vacation are desirable from the workers' point of view.

      You can argue that this situation is problematic; it exists because wages are too low and there's an oversupply of labor; without these issues, individual workers would have more leverage to secure a decent living wage without having to work ridiculous hours. But given the current reality, the fact is that massive overtime is not only common, it's sought after.

  9. There was a suicide prevention app for the iPad by by+(1706743) · · Score: 2, Informative

    but it got rejected.

  10. Re:Well this sucks!!!! by Selfbain · · Score: 3, Insightful

    It's not Apple's plant, it's Foxconn's. I like how everyone is blaming Apple first for the suicides caused by another company and then when they try and fix a problem they didn't cause, people blast them for that too.

    --
    Well, it has never been successfully tested.
  11. By comparison by jmichaelg · · Score: 4, Informative

    I got curious as to how Foxconn's suicide rate compared to other groups. The United States' suicide rate is 11.1 per 100,000 people. Foxconn employs somewhere around 800,000 people(!) which means by the end of the year, you'd expect a death count by suicide of around 90 people.

    If the current rates holds, there'll be 50 more Foxconn employees alive at year's end than there will be Americans from a comparably sized city.

    1. Re:By comparison by thoughtsatthemoment · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Nonsense. How can you compare workers with the general population?

    2. Re:By comparison by eulernet · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The chinese don't commit suicide because they are too busy working overtime.

      Seriously, what is this pitiful statistics you are trying to use ?

      There have been 13 suicides at the working place, and, to my knowledge, suicides at the working place are very rare in our western countries.
      Frankly, if you work 18/7 and spend the rest of your time to sleep and eat, your life means pretty nothing after a few months. And only naive people believe that they can get rich by their work.

      BTW, in France, there have been 37 suicides in 2 years in the biggest telecom company: France Telecom, mainly because the company is changing (FT is becoming a private company, and I can assure you that it means a lot more work for some people there, who are accustomed to doing nothing !).
      In France, we count the suicides both at work and at home, as long as you are working for the company.

    3. Re:By comparison by Lars+T. · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The chinese don't commit suicide because they are too busy working overtime.

      Seriously, what is this pitiful statistics you are trying to use ?

      There have been 13 suicides at the working place

      There have been 13 suicides at the Foxconn complex which also contains free housing for the employees.

      --

      Lars T.

      To the guy who modded me down from perfect to terrible Karma - Apple haters still suck

  12. Re:Well this sucks!!!! by oldspewey · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Why should we let Apple (or any other company) abdicate responsibility for their supply chain? If Apple chooses to work with Foxconn, then Apple is on the hook for ensuring Foxconn is a reputable and humane supplier.

    Or is it okay to let a company like Apple accrue the benefits of outsourcing (i.e. lower prices, more flexible manufacturing, etc.) while ignoring negative consequences (i.e. environmental damage, inhumane working conditions, etc.)?

    --
    If libertarians are so opposed to effective government, why don't they all move to Somalia?
  13. Re:Well this sucks!!!! by oldspewey · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Apple (or any other company)

    Care to try again genius?

    --
    If libertarians are so opposed to effective government, why don't they all move to Somalia?
  14. Re:Well this sucks!!!! by cgenman · · Score: 5, Informative

    For reference, other major brands who use Foxconn include:

    Intel
    Dell
    Zoostrom
    Sony
    Nintendo
    Microsoft (yes, all 3 major consoles come from Foxconn, at least partially)
    Motorola
    Amazon Kindle
    Cisco
    Hewlett-Packard
    ATI

    Most have issued statements regarding the number of suicides at the factory. But none other than Apple, as far as I'm aware, have taken steps this large and publically towards resolving the problem.

    --
    The ______ Agenda
  15. Re:This is assuming they actually pay them more by 99BottlesOfBeerInMyF · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Who says that FoxConn is not just going to take the extra money as profit rather than give that money in the form of raises? The country is horribly corrupt at government and company levels.

    Apple.

    Apple's just paying lip service.

    Apple regularly audits their suppliers, publishes those audits (even though they were dragged through the muck last time they published a yearly audit), and requires those suppliers to make changes or suffer penalties or lose Apple's business. They're one of the few companies demonstrably doing more than paying lip service.

  16. My wife talked to an ex Foxconn employee by shadowofwind · · Score: 2, Interesting

    who said they worked 12 hour shifts with no days off.

    The excuses about labor supply and demand, and how the factory is an improvement over a Chinese farm, are bullshit. If it was really like that, they could cut pay in half, use 4 shifts instead of 2 (or whatever the current scheme is), and give the workers an option of working double. Or some other such improvement. As it is, its just an abuse of power. As screwed up as organized labor has been in the US, this is what happens when you don't have it at all.

    And yes, Apple is culpable, and so are all of us that own products by companies who use Foxconn. When a company is making profits, and its executives are earning large salaries and bonuses, the market isn't forcing them to do what they do. They can always scale back the size of their mansions a little bit.

  17. Re:Well this sucks!!!! by Selfbain · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Why should we let Apple (or any other company) abdicate responsibility for their supply chain?

    I'm not saying we should. It's just disingenuous to call it "Apple's plant" which I've seen repeated over and over again. Lots of companies contract Foxconn and Apple seems to be the only one trying to fix the problem so why are they the one being singled out for criticism.

    --
    Well, it has never been successfully tested.
  18. Re:Well this sucks!!!! by BitZtream · · Score: 5, Insightful

    You do realize pretty much every computer on the planet has components from Foxconn in it ... right?

    I guaranty you that the computer you used to post has components they make in it.

    Unless you plan on no longer using a car, your PC, probably your TV and several other devices, you won't be doing a damn thing to 'stop the problem'.

    --
    Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
  19. Re:Well this sucks!!!! by waltmarkers · · Score: 2, Informative

    Here OP, let me make an analogy to explain why Apple is not entirely responsible, only partially, for Foxconn.

    Why should we let the OP (or any other poster) abdicate responsibility for their supply chain? If OP chooses to work with a grocery store, then OP is on the hook for ensuring the grocery store is a reputable and humane supplier.

    Or is it okay to let a poster like OP accrue the benefits of outsourcing (i.e. not having to have a farm or barter with farmers directly) while ignoring negative consequences (i.e. environmental damage, inhumane working conditions, etc.)?

    See how silly that sounds? Now, in reality responsibility scales proportionally to percentage of gross sales you make up for your supplier. OP to his grocery is a many to one relationship, giving him little responsibility. Apple to Foxconn is a few to one relationship, giving apple more, but not total responsibility. However, when a supplier has only one customer, that customer has total responsibility.

  20. The problem is quantum mechanics by Colin+Smith · · Score: 2, Funny

    It's been shown that you have an infinitesimally small but real chance of not actually existing. It's difficult to aim for 100% when the best reality itself can offer is 99.9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999%

    I blame Planck myself.
     

    --
    Deleted
  21. Re:Well this sucks!!!! by Skuld-Chan · · Score: 2

    Apple could have chosen a company that has 1st world labor laws.

    Lets not kid ourselves here - the only reason they outsource all this crap to China (or name your own low wage destination) is because it provides a greater profit return. It has little to do with how much something costs. Make no mistake - one of the reasons Apple is worth more as a company even though they ship less than their competitors is because they have very high profit margins.

  22. Apple benefits from Slavery. by Jackie_Chan_Fan · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Nuff said.

    When you outsource to foreign lands that force workers to sleep on the assembly lines, and in the factories... for 65 cents an hour, you're supporting slavery. (This is the common work condition of chinese labor)

    I'm sorry. Apple wanted to cheat the economic system by not hiring Americans, because we have lives and high expenses due to the cost of living in America. Why pay Americans who only want to work and have a home and healthcare, when you can hire Chinese slaves who are easily replaced no matter how many of them commit suicide.

    Fuck every corporation that sold America out.

  23. Re:Well this sucks!!!! by 0100010001010011 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Isn't the suicide rate for FoxConn employees somewhat less than the population of China as a whole?

    Getting a job at FoxConn would actually reduce your tendency to commit suicide.

  24. Re:Well this sucks!!!! by Hadlock · · Score: 2

    At the profit margins Apple runs, they could probably afford to manufacture the iPad here in the USA in a prexisting plant under contract. One of the (many) reasons why they probably don't do this is because we don't have the kind of manufacturing plants here in the US with the capacity to handle those kinds of volumes.

    --
    moox. for a new generation.
  25. Just for the record... by jcr · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The suicide rate among foxconn workers is not only lower than for the population of China in general, but also lower than every US state. Every suicide is a tragic event, but I'm not buying the contention that their jobs are driving them to do it.

    -jcr

    --
    The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    1. Re:Just for the record... by oddTodd123 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The suicide rate among foxconn workers is not only lower than for the population of China in general, but also lower than every US state. Every suicide is a tragic event, but I'm not buying the contention that their jobs are driving them to do it.

      Suicide rates vary widely between different population segments; you cannot fairly compare the suicide rate of factory workers in Shenzhen to the suicide rate of rural farmers, for example. The better comparison would be the suicide rate of Foxconn employees to the suicide rates at other electronics manufacturing, and I'd think if other factories had similar suicide rates we might not be hearing so much about this in the news.

      While these suicides may be due to statistical chance, do you not feel it is worth it to investigate possible causes and show some empathy for factory workers making $100/month working 100 hours/week? Let me provide an analogous real world comparison: Helix High School in La Mesa, California, had four teacher-student sex scandals in as many years. Given the sheer number of high schools in the United States, it is probably within statistical reason to expect a single high school to coincidentally have four sex scandals. Should parents and the community write the problem off, or should they look at their faculty policies and other factors that might be contributing to the problem and see if there is something they can do to prevent future sex scandals?

    2. Re:Just for the record... by gmhowell · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Suicide rates vary widely between different population segments; you cannot fairly compare the suicide rate of factory workers in Shenzhen to the suicide rate of rural farmers, for example. The better comparison would be the suicide rate of Foxconn employees to the suicide rates at other electronics manufacturing, and I'd think if other factories had similar suicide rates we might not be hearing so much about this in the news.

      In a perfect and rational world, perhaps, but this world is neither. Witness how much makes news simply because it is Apple (or Nike, or whomever). This story gets play precisely because it does lob stones at Apple's glass house.

      This is like Greenpeace getting all pissy at Apple a few years back. Despite Apple being MUCH better than the industry average, Greenpeace targetted Apple, knowing it would garner more press than complaining about HP.

      --
      Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
    3. Re:Just for the record... by ahankinson · · Score: 2, Informative

      You read Fake Steve! He totally called it that people would be saying this.

    4. Re:Just for the record... by SharpFang · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Is it lower than -workplace- suicides in any other part of the world?

      The number never included suicides at home!

      --
      45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
  26. Re:Well this sucks!!!! by RAMMS+EIN · · Score: 4, Insightful

    ``Why should we let Apple (or any other company) abdicate responsibility for their supply chain?''

    Well, I see it like this: Apple (or any other company) wants something manufactured. So they approach some manufacturers to make them an offer. Foxconn (or any other bidder) says "We can do it for so and so much." Among all the bidders, Foxconn has the most attractive offer, and Apple believes they will be able to make good on it, so they sign the deal.

    Is that all there is to it? Well, pretty much yes. If Apple didn't trust Foxconn enough, they probably wouldn't sign the deal. This trust can cover anything from fear that Foxconn might go belly up before having delivered, to causing negative press for Apple. In the end, there is no real way for Apple to be certain that such events will happen, or will not happen, if they sign the deal with any of the bidders. The best they can do is make a risk assessment, pick the winner of the bid, encourage them to do the right thing, work with them to help them do the right thing, and help fix things if things still go wrong. And it seems to me that this is exactly what they are doing.

    ``If Apple chooses to work with Foxconn, then Apple is on the hook for ensuring Foxconn is a reputable and humane supplier.''

    I think that's debatable. Certainly, you may _like_ Apple to try its best to ensure that every supplier they work with is reputable and humane. And maybe they are doing that. They are, after all, paying extra to support the plan to curb the suicides. But even if Apple do their best, there is only so much they can do. They don't control Foxconn, and, last I checked, Apple didn't have a standing army or a special ops unit that could force Foxconn to do what Apple would like them to do. So it's really Foxconn that has to fix things - Apple can only encourage them, help them, and, if that fails, walk away from Foxconn and distance themselves from Foxconn's practices should Foxconn not clean up its act. So I really thing "ensuring" is too strong. Apple can't do that, so it's unreasonable to expect that of them.

    --
    Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
  27. American Workers Just Can't Compete... by stbill79 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Remember this story the next time you try to defend our all-mighty corporations' choice of offshoring every single job possible with the simple-minded argument of American workers just can't compete; they need to toughen up, take a lower standard of living, work harder, become better educated, etc, etc...

    In a globalized world, there will always exist a shit-hole even worse than the last. Uless your idea of being more competitive really means accepting conditions so poor that death seems a valid alternative to a rather significant portion of the work-force, you might want to start thinking of a better argument.

  28. Re:Well this sucks!!!! by Starmac · · Score: 4, Informative

    None of them give a shit. Slavery was always the goal. We outlawed it in the US.. but not overseas.

    The US Workers who demanded a modest life style, home and health care... were sold out by those companies who would rather employ slaves, then Americans because its more profitable and slaves are easy to abuse.

    More like the corporations are hostage to their financial performance and stock price. Who holds them hostage? The retirement plans with billions invested and expect their 10 -15% ROI. The beneficiaries of those plans? Grandmom and Granddad who retire comfortably at 55, 60, 62... You can't demand exceptional financial results from companies and corporations and handcuff their options to deliver those results. It's called Capitalism - the only incentive that gets people to produce more time and again is personal financial gain.

  29. Re:Well this sucks!!!! by BlueWaterBaboonFarm · · Score: 2, Interesting
    I am by no means an Apple fan boy. I own none of their products and likely never will. However, I do not understand why Apple is catching so much publicity for this.

    From the economist*:

    The toll (a dozen this year) is lower than the suicide rate among the general population in China. But the deaths have raised questions about working conditions in electronics manufacturing in general and in particular at Foxconn, which keeps its customers secret, rarely opens its plants to outsiders and routinely ignores press inquiries.

    What is the suicide rate at other companies? I'm truly curious. I would like to understand why everyone is up in arms about this. And what about Dell and HP and any number of other companies that also use Foxconn?

    source

  30. Bring out the losertarians by jhylkema · · Score: 2, Interesting

    to tell us that if we just repeal all of those pesky workers' rights laws that corporations will, out of the goodness of their hearts, afford their workers such unaffordable luxuries as unpaid days off, an eight-hour day, overtime pay, a (gasp!) minimum wage, etc.

  31. reality and suicides by nobodie · · Score: 2, Informative

    from your viewpoint this seems like an easy and wonderful conclusion. From here, well, think about what the article summary said: Some of the suicides were possibly "copycat suicides" because of the large compensation packages for bereaved family. Now, think about the Honda workers down in Guang Zhou who are on a walkout (no strikes allowed here) for a raise. Now, they have seen that for the relatively cost of a few suicides they can get the raise they are desperate for. Yes, I am saying that it is highly likely that this will inspire a rash of suicides among the grossly underpaid Chinese workforce. Think, minimum wage is 750 RMB (110 US) here outside of Shanghai. Oh, silly me, that is per month. It is not even close to living wage, much less something you could take into a marriage negotiation. Double that is a good factory job, still not enough to buy an apartment (and thereby become a legal resident of the city where you are working) or a car or anything that is considered success here. But another 20%? maybe things become more possible then, at least to consider getting married to someone who makes what you do. See the result, if i commit suicide i can help all my friends, if i don't we all suffer and fail. what would you do?

    --
    Subversion of spatial scale luxury decoration ideas.