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India Attempts To Derail ACTA

Admiral Justin writes "Ars Technica is reporting that India is attempting to gather support from other large countries that have been intentionally left out of the ACTA process to actively protest it. India fears that ACTA will eventually be used against it and other countries that were given no chance to be a part of the process of drafting it. Among the primary concerns are the possibility of medical shipments being seized if they use a port in transit that is controlled by a country with a patent on the pharmaceuticals."

162 comments

  1. I can relate by amicusNYCL · · Score: 5, Insightful

    India fears that ACTA will eventually be used against it and other countries who were given no chance to be a part of the process drafting it.

    As a US citizen, I can relate to that.

    --
    "Our two-party system is like a bowl of shit looking at itself in a mirror." - Lewis Black
    1. Re:I can relate by siloko · · Score: 5, Insightful

      [India] fears that ACTA will eventually be used against it.

      I find that quite sweet actually. The whole point of excluding the next economic power house is precisely to frame laws which may delay their rise to the top. It is not if ACTA gets used against India but when.

    2. Re:I can relate by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      As a citizen of any of the countries that are in it, we can relate.

    3. Re:I can relate by Weezul · · Score: 4, Insightful

      So how do we help them derail it?

      --
      The Christian religion has been and still is the principal enemy of moral progress in the world. -- Bertrand Russell
    4. Re:I can relate by Clueless+Nick · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Some EU countries are already seizing shipments of cheap generics being sent from India to other developing nations, if they happen to transit through European ports.

      It just goes towards exposing the hypocrisy of such countries that keep on shrieking about aid convoys being attacked and privacy being trampled upon elsewhere.

      What is the cost in terms of human lives when right to medicine and right to cheap medicine are denied?

      --
      Chat with other atheists http://secularchat.org
    5. Re:I can relate by mcgrew · · Score: 2, Informative

      I think he was referring to the insanely high cost we Americans pay for drugs compared to other countries. For example, after an eye surgery I was prescribed some eyedrops (Vigimox IIRC) that ranged in price from $65 to $85 depending on the pharmacy. My co-pay, what I pay after insurance, was $26.

      The same drug retails for $24 in Canada.

    6. Re:I can relate by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Grows a pair and overthrow the corrupt corporate-fundamentalist regime in charge of your country.

    7. Re:I can relate by uncoveror · · Score: 1

      The worst part is that countless people will die when it is used to seize shipments of unauthorized generic versions of still patented drugs that would cost more than a years salary per dose if bought "legitimately".

      --
      The Uncoveror: It's the real news.
  2. software patents and DRM by ciaran_o_riordan · · Score: 4, Informative

    They focus on medicine, which is indeed a subject of massive importance, but I hope they'll also fix the DRM and software patent problems. Of these two, DRM is actually the most worrying problem, IMO, but I don't have info on that :-/ I do have info on ACTA and software patents:

    FWIW

    1. Re:software patents and DRM by unix1 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Of these two, DRM is actually the most worrying problem, IMO

      DRM is not a problem; criminalizing talking about DRM is.

    2. Re:software patents and DRM by shentino · · Score: 1

      DRM is still a problem.

      Especially when chicken shit companies abuse it to revoke rights we already have.

    3. Re:software patents and DRM by unix1 · · Score: 2, Informative

      Don't demean the word "rights." Everyone is free to write the software (DRM or otherwise) as they see fit - that is a right.

      The real problem is when governments come in and single-handedly criminalize certain speech when such speech doesn't agree with corporate interests that got them elected in public office.

    4. Re:software patents and DRM by laughingcoyote · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Don't demean the word "rights." Everyone is free to write the software (DRM or otherwise) as they see fit - that is a right.

      I will agree with that statement if and only if one concurrently has the right to write and distribute software that easily cracks said DRM. "However you like" goes both ways, in such a case. If my rights to break it can be restricted, yours to use it can be too. If either of us can write software however we like, you can write your DRM, and I can crack it. The problem occurs when that "right" only applies to one side.

      --
      To fight the war on terror, stop being afraid.
    5. Re:software patents and DRM by Hurricane78 · · Score: 1, Insightful

      DRM is a problem.

      (See, you did not say why. So I also don’t, to refute your statement. But I can add arguments on top anyway, to make it an actual argument. Like:)

      DRMed information is lost, when the server or decoding system is gone.
      Criminalized circumventing DRM also is why it is a problem.
      I’d go so far as saying that being a problem is the point of DRM.

      --
      Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
    6. Re:software patents and DRM by unix1 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      That was the point in both of my previous posts. You've said nothing that disagrees with it.

      OP (of this thread) said: "DRM is actually the most worrying problem."

      Again, DRM is not a problem. The erosion of rights of free expression and speech is. The solution should not be to outlaw DRM, or place some legal restrictions on its implementations. This could have many unintended consequences. The solution should be to not restrict everyone's rights w/respect to DRM in the first place (i.e. cracks, discussion, research, etc.).

    7. Re:software patents and DRM by unix1 · · Score: 2, Informative

      DRM is a problem.

      (See, you did not say why. So I also don’t, to refute your statement. But I can add arguments on top anyway, to make it an actual argument. Like:)

      It's not a problem because it's your right to write whatever software (DRM or otherwise) you please - that is your right. Outlawing DRM would take away your freedom to write such software.

      DRMed information is lost, when the server or decoding system is gone.

      Writing with disappearing ink also causes information to be lost. Let's outlaw disappearing ink.

      Encrypting information and throwing away decryption keys would also cause information to be lost - let's outlaw deleting encryption keys and passwords.

      Criminalized circumventing DRM also is why it is a problem.

      Then you didn't read my (oh, so short and to the point) post. Because that is what I said was the problem.

    8. Re:software patents and DRM by laughingcoyote · · Score: 1

      Wasn't sure what you meant, but if that's what it is, I absolutely agree with you.

      --
      To fight the war on terror, stop being afraid.
    9. Re:software patents and DRM by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      I will agree with that statement if and only if one concurrently has the right to write and distribute software that easily cracks said DRM.

      This is precisely what GGP meant when he said that "criminalizing talking about DRM" is a problem, rather than DRM itself.

    10. Re:software patents and DRM by AK+Marc · · Score: 1, Informative

      It's not a problem because it's your right to write whatever software (DRM or otherwise) you please - that is your right. Outlawing DRM would take away your freedom to write such software.

      That's a strawman argument. No one has ever said it should be illegal to write DRM. However, it would be reasonable to not allow copyright protections to content under DRM. Something "protected" by DRM is not released to the public as is required for copyright. It's purposefully crippled and often laden with a time bomb. That would prevent free use once the limited time for copyright has passed. As such, and since it is under license and not "sold" I would argue it's a trade secret, and should be protected as such, and without and regular copyright protections at all.

      So, you can write all the DRM you like. That's your right. But I'd assert that it should be illegal for you to then try to enforce copyright law against someone for it because it wasn't released as required for copyright.

      Writing with disappearing ink also causes information to be lost. Let's outlaw disappearing ink.

      If you write something with disappearing ink, then it too should not be under copyright. After all, if there's only the one disappearing copy, once it's gone, how would you prove it was infringed upon? And again, assuming you made ink that lasted one day less than the length of copyright, then you'd be abusing copyright and directly violating the "law" (being the Constitutional requirements for protections, not necessarily the implementation as currently written by Congress).

      Then you didn't read my (oh, so short and to the point) post. Because that is what I said was the problem.

      Circumventing and talking about are two different issues. It's like the difference between talking about robbing a bank and actually robbing one (and, incidentally, both of those are illegal as well - assuming you have the means and intention to actually carry out the robbery).

    11. Re:software patents and DRM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Among the primary concerns are the possibility of medical shipments being seized if they use a port in transit that is controlled by a country with a patent on the pharmaceuticals."

      Their focus is also on an issue which is solved by circumventing the patent by the government assuming the patent is owned by the multinationals. The wording there is a bit funny, though. What is a patent hold by a country?
        The Indian attitude towards fair-use was reported somewhere to be very nice which makes one wonder about the attitude towards the DRM.

    12. Re:software patents and DRM by Ash+Vince · · Score: 1

      Especially when chicken shit companies abuse it to revoke rights we already have.

      You do not have any right to use a piece of software until the creator publishes it and then they decide what rights they want to give you. If they say you cannot transfer the licence from one machine to another and your local laws allow those licensing terms then that is their right as the creator of the software. Your only legal option is to refuse to use it on moral grounds. Using it anyway is not a legal right.

      So for this reason DRM cannot be used to revoke rights unless they can force it into software you already have via an autoupdate process of some kind. If you buy software with DRM already in it, then you need to pay attention to the shrink wrap licence as the DRM may well enforce the terms in the licence. Do not be too surprised if it does since this is the main point of DRM, to force users to abide by a software publishers licensing terms.

      --
      I dont read /. to RTFA, I read /. to offend people in ignorance.
    13. Re:software patents and DRM by unix1 · · Score: 1

      it would be reasonable to not allow copyright protections to content under DRM.

      Aha, so that's your main point. This is a much larger issue; and pretty much any such regulation would have way too far-reaching consequences.

      Did you password-protect the zip file you sent over e-mail? DRM!
      Did you use PGP/GPG to encrypt your e-mails? DRM!
      Are files on your computer username/password protected? DRM!
      Do you lock your car with an electronic remote? DRM!
      Did you use encryption (scp/sftp/etc.) to download copyrighted software? DRM!

      Pretty much anything that has an electronic "key" to open/enable copyrighted content would qualify. Your issue then is with copyright, not with DRM.

    14. Re:software patents and DRM by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      No, my issue is with people that use licensing and DRM to have the effect of a Trade Secret, then use copyright protections when they've never released an unencumbered version in the wild. Every example you gave is one I'd agree with. My email is not published for human consumption. It's the physical property of the recipient, and anyone else that intercepts it between came on it illegally. I may protect it from some illegal interception, but that doesn't change the fact it's a personal communication between me and someone else. In history, secure letters have been considered an unpublished but copyrightable work. And that's what I think it should be now, not some actually copyrighted work that has a "published" date matching the date of a private distribution. Copyright has never worked like that in the past, and doing so now is a perversion of the system. DRM is irrelevant to that point because it isn't a published work. It's a private work that has been shared.

      I use a password and possibly encryption on my computer. But no files I create are copyrighted until they are published. Until then, they are Trade Secrets of works in progress. Again, irrelevant to my "no DRM and copyright on the same work" statement. My car isn't copyrighted. It's patented, trademarked, but you don't copyright the formula for rubber in the tires.

      The closest to the point I made is "Did you use encryption (scp/sftp/etc.) to download copyrighted software? DRM!" And again, it's an issue of whether there was ever a published work. If you download a copy of 1984 over encryption, that wouldn't count because the work has been widely published unencumbered for many years. If you are downloading a game off Steam that has never been available without DRM and there is no unlocked copy in the halls of the Library of Congress or such, then yes, that's DRM that's preventing the work from being "published" so it wouldn't be covered under copyright.

      But from the fact that all but one are completely irrelevant to my comments leads me to believe you didn't get it at all. Copyright was created to encourage publication and public distribution of works. If all works "published" are encumbered with license agreements turning them into private works distributed under NDA, then they weren't published, they are Trade Secrets. If they only ever distribute it with DRM, then it was never provided for public distribution, and thus can't enter the Public Domain now or ever, and thus should be in a legal "gray area" where they are provided no protections at all (as they are neither private, nor fully published), instead of the current system where they are given elevated protections (where they are seen as *both* private and fully published).

      Your issue then is with copyright, not with DRM.

      My issue is with DRM being used to enforce copyright, which destroys the purpose of copyright. So my issue is with DRM and DRM alone for this discussion (I may or may not have issues with copyright, but they are not relevant to the discussion on DRM).

    15. Re:software patents and DRM by unix1 · · Score: 1

      I use a password and possibly encryption on my computer. But no files I create are copyrighted until they are published. Until then, they are Trade Secrets of works in progress. Again, irrelevant to my "no DRM and copyright on the same work" statement.

      No, it is relevant. There is no black and white distinction between the two. What if you send a novel you wrote to 20 of your friends with an encrypted e-mail, or password-protected zip file. Is that a trade secret, or a copyrighted work?

      My car isn't copyrighted. It's patented, trademarked, but you don't copyright the formula for rubber in the tires.

      Your car isn't copyrighted but it acts as a DRM system for "works" in it.

      The closest to the point I made is "Did you use encryption (scp/sftp/etc.) to download copyrighted software? DRM!" And again, it's an issue of whether there was ever a published work. If you download a copy of 1984 over encryption, that wouldn't count because the work has been widely published unencumbered for many years. If you are downloading a game off Steam that has never been available without DRM and there is no unlocked copy in the halls of the Library of Congress or such, then yes, that's DRM that's preventing the work from being "published" so it wouldn't be covered under copyright.

      Several problems with these statements:

      1. "Widely" published is as vague as it gets; it doesn't have any clear meaning with which you can differentiate what is copyrightable and what is not. The work should be copyrightable on its merits, not someone's arbitrary definition or understanding of "widely."

      2. Distribution method should not determine whether the work is copyrightable. This is a problem because distributing your works via secure channels would automatically put otherwise copyrightable works into your trade secrets category. Such security (which is also "DRM") can be used to prevent tracking, MITM attacks, etc. and should not be used to determine the work's eligibility for copyright protection.

      3. It doesn't make sense when copyright holder and distributor are different. "DRM" can be added by the distributor who is not the same entity as the copyright holder. In that case, per your argument, the copyright holder would be stripped of any copyright protection.

      But from the fact that all but one are completely irrelevant to my comments leads me to believe you didn't get it at all.

      Oh, I got it just fine.

      Copyright was created to encourage publication and public distribution of works. If all works "published" are encumbered with license agreements turning them into private works distributed under NDA, then they weren't published, they are Trade Secrets. If they only ever distribute it with DRM, then it was never provided for public distribution, and thus can't enter the Public Domain now or ever, and thus should be in a legal "gray area" where they are provided no protections at all (as they are neither private, nor fully published), instead of the current system where they are given elevated protections (where they are seen as *both* private and fully published).

      I just don't think it's as black and white as you make it sound like. And the idea, while noble in theory (and I'm sure you could list plenty of examples), would have many unintended consequences in reality.

      Your issue then is with copyright, not with DRM.

      My issue is with DRM being used to enforce copyright, which destroys the purpose of copyright. So my issue is with DRM and DRM alone for this discussion (I may or may not have issues with copyright, but they are not relevant to the discussion on DRM).

      You are making it a copyright issue. DRM is just a tool that can be used in conjunction with copyrighted works. There is no clear separation between "good" DRM and "bad" DRM. Revoking copyright privileges based on arbitrary definition of "good" and "bad" (or "widely") is just as erroneous as the current laws that hold DRM as a special case where even discussing it is illegal. And taking a wide swipe at all DRM is basically arguing against copyright.

    16. Re:software patents and DRM by Aklyon · · Score: 1

      So you WANT stuff to be lost when that publisher decides its not worth the auth. servers anymore?
      IDIOT!

      --
      I reserve the right to have a physical object so I can sell it later, and recover my money.
    17. Re:software patents and DRM by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      What if you send a novel you wrote to 20 of your friends with an encrypted e-mail, or password-protected zip file. Is that a trade secret, or a copyrighted work?

      Again, you are asking something that you are trying to skirt the issue of whether it's published. You tell me whether it's a trade secret or a published work, and I'll tell you whether DRM has an effect. You say you are talking about DRM, but then, when I state my problems with DRM on copyrighted works, you change the subject to something else. You tell me whether you think it's published or a trade secret, and I'll answer. Otherwise, I think you'll just purposefully attack my definition of published or trade secret, and ignore the DRM issue we are talking about.

      Distribution method should not determine whether the work is copyrightable.

      Then take it up with US law. A private letter sent in a closed envelope to a single friend is not a published work according to US law, whether you DRM it or not. If you send it to a newspaper for publication, it could probably be considered published at the point you drop it in the mailbox, even if they don't publish it (because your intent was to publish it). So your stance disagrees with US law.

      It doesn't make sense when copyright holder and distributor are different. "DRM" can be added by the distributor who is not the same entity as the copyright holder. In that case, per your argument, the copyright holder would be stripped of any copyright protection.

      DRM can't be added without permission, so the person distributing *is* the copyright holder (or has the rights thereof by contract). Creatively speaking, DRM is a derivative work, so if they don't have explicit permission to use DRM, but do have permission to distribute the work itself, a DRM version would be illegal. Again, you are contradicting US law in your attempt to show my argument as silly. Apparently, you think the law is silly, and I'm using that as the basis for my statements. Until they clean up the law to something you like, I guess you'll disagree with me.

      Oh, I got it just fine.

      Oh, so rather than misunderstanding, you understand perfectly, but are being an obtuse obstinate fucktard. And you somehow think that's better?

      You don't address the core of the issue. Selling something that self-destructs and will never enter the Public Domain is a direct violation of the spirit of copyright and, in my opinion, a direct violation of the law surrounding copyright as well. You refuse to address that statement at all.

      And the idea, while noble in theory (and I'm sure you could list plenty of examples), would have many unintended consequences in reality.

      This just in, doing the right thing can sometimes be hard! I guess we'd better just take payments from corporations to look the other way and let them determine our morals.

      You are making it a copyright issue.

      Yes, you say you understand, but then you say this. I'm stating explicitly that it's not a copyright issue, it's a DRM issue. So, either you are calling me a liar, or you don't understand. Since you've asserted you do understand, I guess I should assume you are a liar?

      DRM is just a tool that can be used in conjunction with copyrighted works.

      And so is a gun. You can let someone read your book, then kill them. And call that an effective copyright enforcement tool. It would be illegal, immoral, and violate the spirit and letter of the law, but you "can" do it. You might not have as many sales that way, so they find the most distasteful way of legally getting as close to that effect as they can.

      There is no clear separation between "good" DRM and "bad" DRM.

      So says you. I made it quite clear. If the author asserts copyright, then DRM is bad. If they assert Trade Secret status, then DRM is good. You got into some discussion about trying to get me to make determinations on what's published and what

    18. Re:software patents and DRM by Ash+Vince · · Score: 1

      So you WANT stuff to be lost when that publisher decides its not worth the auth. servers anymore?

      Please re-read my post and check for the bit where I was saying DRM is a good thing. You wont find it because it was not there. All I was trying to say was that if you object to DRM your only legal option is to avoid software containing it. You cannot bitch about it stealing rights that your never had in the first place. Publishers choose what rights to give you when you enter into a licence agreement to use their software.

      Personally I try and avoid DRM'd crap when ever possible, but I fully recognise why companies use it. I also recognise that they are probably only enforcing what their licence has always said anyway. If you do not like a products licensing terms, your only legal recourse is to not use that product.

      IDIOT!

      Since you seem unable to read maybe you should be more careful about bandying around insults.

      --
      I dont read /. to RTFA, I read /. to offend people in ignorance.
  3. Yep. Yer boned. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Agreed. As a us citizen i can say for sure we're going to use this new treaty to really screw over pretty much..... everyone.

    In both real world terms and on the net.

    We like pushing our laws on other countries.. But theres no way we will allow it to work the other way around.

    America is like the largest group of hypocrites on the planet... Who put us in charge anyway... That wasnt too smart.

  4. Pleasepleaseplease by dasdrewid · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Ars Technica is reporting that India is attempting to gather support from other large countries which have been intentionally left out of the ACTA process to actively protest it.

    Please let this mean they're planning an all-out media blitz here in the US. I can see the commercials now, something between between a Tea Party "the government's gonna get you!"/"One World Government is coming!" campaign booster and a Broadview Security "THEYRE GONNA RAPE YOU AND STEAL YOUR CHILDREN!!!!!!!!!" commercial.

    Seriously, plan the message carefully and you could run the same commercial on Fox News and PBS/NPR 24/7 and *everyone* would freak out and, hopefully, do something about this filthy excuse for a treaty.

    --
    No trespassing. Violators will be shot. Survivors will be shot again.
    1. Re:Pleasepleaseplease by oxygen_deprived · · Score: 1

      Nope. We probably dont need to burn our money that way.We pass a retro effective law in our country criminalizing all your biz houses that operate here.If pepsi/coke/p&g/levis/GM/whoever were to be thrown out, or have their stuff seized here in India, it could get us far greater mileage. With the absolute majority that the ruling party enjoys currently, there probably wont even be a parliamentary debate on it.

    2. Re:Pleasepleaseplease by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Too bad all the news stations in the US are owned by the media corporations pushing for the treaty, isn't it?

  5. Re:Yep. Yer boned. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    As a us citizen i can say for sure we're going to use this new treaty to really screw over pretty much..... everyone. In both real world terms and on the net.

    Will there be a line, or will it be an auction-type system? I'm hoping for a pretty Swede, but I'll take not-ugly.

  6. Profits are more important than lives. by elucido · · Score: 5, Insightful

    So expect ACTA to pass and expect medicine to remain patented and restricted only for use by the richest 1%. It's the way society is designed, whether ACTA is instituted or not.

    The question the modern capitalist must ask themselves is a question of priority. What is more important to you, the lives of poor individuals or profits?

    Corporations have chosen profits but what do individuals choose?

    1. Re:Profits are more important than lives. by OrwellianLurker · · Score: 5, Insightful

      We're not a capitalist country anymore; we're corporatists.

      --
      'Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun.' - Mao Tse-tung
    2. Re:Profits are more important than lives. by AnEducatedNegro · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Considering it took deaths at Apple's iPhone manufacturing plant to get a 20% pay raise that caused a 0.7% increase in cost of making the iPad, I would have to answer your question: profits.

    3. Re:Profits are more important than lives. by Renraku · · Score: 1

      Profits, of course!

      We elect officials.
      Some officials are corrupted.
      We elected corrupted officials.
      Corrupted officials take bribes.
      Bribes are given by corporations.
      Corporations expect the support of the officials.
      Corporations exist to profit.
      Officials take bribes and support the corporations.
      We elect officials to help corporations profit.

      --
      Job? I don't have time to get a job! Who will sit around and bitch about being broke and unemployed then?
    4. Re:Profits are more important than lives. by v1 · · Score: 1

      The question the modern capitalist must ask themselves is a question of priority. What is more important to you, the lives of poor individuals or profits?

      The answer is C: the size of the retirement nest eggs of the congresscritters. (aka "B")

      --
      I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.
    5. Re:Profits are more important than lives. by Lunix+Nutcase · · Score: 1

      Considering it took deaths at Apple's iPhone manufacturing plant

      Except that Apple doesn't own the plant and Foxconn (the actual owner) manufactures parts for pretty much any hardware company you can name.

    6. Re:Profits are more important than lives. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Interesting

      At the risk of a very unpopular response, here goes. The "evil" drug companies did not spend billions of dollars so that they give away the fruits of their labor for free. The drugs were developed in hopes of getting some kind of return on investment. If all of you "drugs should be free" types force companies to lose money on every drug they develop, those evil companies will get out of R&D altogether. You wanted a cure for cancer? Too bad.
      The answer is not circumvent patents and IP laws on drug companies, it's to remove the billions of dollars of dollars of red tape that it costs to bring new drugs to market, thereby reducing the costs of the drug to the company and thus the consumer. The pills will cost a lot less if R&D costs to recoup are only $200 million, instead of $2 billion.

    7. Re:Profits are more important than lives. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      The drug companies could drop their costs by, oh, more than half if they'd stop advertising their newest placebo all everyone's TV. They could probably recoup more costs if they stopped bribing doctors to stick every single patient on hypertension, cholesterol, and mood-altering drugs that likely have worse side-effects than they have benefits. I have zero sympathy for the leeches.

    8. Re:Profits are more important than lives. by AnEducatedNegro · · Score: 5, Insightful

      you're missing the point. i'm saying we're willing to go to cheap labor to make an extra $1.20 per ipad. to answer the OP's question, we're obviously after profit otherwise we'd make electronics here in the states to boost our economy without needing to resort to ACTA

    9. Re:Profits are more important than lives. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      we're corporatists

      Which is just a nice word for fascism

    10. Re:Profits are more important than lives. by TheVelvetFlamebait · · Score: 1

      Well, as an individual, I think that maintaining IP is, in general, good practice, not just for corporations, but also individuals as well. Making medicines available to poor people when they're invented seems like a good idea (and it is), but instituted poorly, you can end up hurting everyone: poor people, rich people, corporations, etc. If we make medicine X available for free (or cheap) today, then that jeopardises the future existence of medicine X v2, or X v3. Corporations are the ones who hold the budget required to successfully research, and actually create these medicines, but if they can't justify their medicine research budget, then they're going to perpetually pass the buck, which does nobody any favours. A short period where medicines are expensive is a small price to pay for the many subsequent years of their existence as cheap, universally accessible medicines (or even their years of existence, period).

      Now, giving medicines to the poor is a great idea, but weakening patents is not. All it does is punish medicine companies. What we should do is raise taxes (for companies as well), and institute a subsidy scheme for distributing these medicines at low cost. That way, the financial burden is shared reasonably fairly amongst everyone. The poor pay little to nothing for this scheme, the middle class pay a small part of their wages, and the rich/corporations pay for the majority of it. Nobody spends more than they can afford, medicines are distributed, unnecessary deaths are reduced, and companies have a reasonable amount of incentive to continue work on X v2.

      --
      You know, there is a difference between trolling and pointing out the flaws in your reasoning. Just saying.
    11. Re:Profits are more important than lives. by victorhooi · · Score: 1

      heya,

      I have to agree. Say what you like about your conspiracy theories on pharameceutical firms, but there's little doubt that drug research is expensive. And they're the only ones big enough and with enough courage and resources to invest in it. It is *incredibly* expensive, both to do the research, then to run through the various clinical trial stages.

      And if they don't think they can make money, they're just not going to do the research into it. For example, look at malaria - it's largely erradicated in developed countries, and research into malaria research at for-profit companies is much lower than for say, heart disease or cancers.

      They're probably thinking - gee, if we make this drug, we can't sell it to people with money, we can only sell it to the poor countries. And knowing them, countries like India or Brazil or China will probably just take our research, steal our designs and undercut us with generics. So we actually make no money at all. Screw them, we're going to invest in making a cancer vaccine.

      The end result is poor people lose. On the other hand, if they can make *some* money, as opposed to being completely undercut and making none at all, I'm sure they would - perhaps with a bit of prodding/grants from the government.

      Cheers,
      Victor

    12. Re:Profits are more important than lives. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No. A fascist state has a direction and is organized as a whole.

    13. Re:Profits are more important than lives. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Boost our economy Detroit-style?

      How do you figure cutting profits boosts an economy? You want to be a Foxconn employee? No, I get it - Americans want those jobs - those jobs that pay well, and include a nice pension. And Apple can just charge more, right? Or will they accept less profit, which will miraculously help them grow, somehow. "Free trade" means the you don't get paid $30/hr to stand on an assembly line while a third of the world lives (or doesn't) on $2/day.

    14. Re:Profits are more important than lives. by hacksoncode · · Score: 1
      Ummm... Corporatism is the exact *opposite* of fascism. It's even more insidiously bad, but it's not just another word for the same thing.

      In fascism, the government takes control of the operations of corporations for the benefit of the state, while nominally leaving the ownership of those businesses in private hands.

      In corporatism, the corporations take control of the operations of the government for the benefit of the corporations, while nominally leaving ownership of the government in the hands of the people.

  7. Re:Yep. Yer boned. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    We like pushing our laws on other countries.. But theres no way we will allow it to work the other way around.

    Question is, are these even your laws? How many elected officials have insight into these negotiations, let alone the public?

    The whole trade agreement thing is mostly just a way to get countries to commit to laws without letting the democracy thing getting in the way. Just sign here mister prime minister, it's good for business!

  8. what about Antigua free ip that the WTO GIVE them? by Joe+The+Dragon · · Score: 2, Interesting

    what about Antigua's free ip that the WTO GIVE them? What if they get locked out under the ACTA? can they use to for there on line gameing to not be blocked?

  9. It's a shame... by divisionbyzero · · Score: 4, Insightful

    that we (the good ole USA) need to rely on other countries' governments to protect us from our government and its corporate puppet masters.

    1. Re:It's a shame... by blair1q · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It's a shame, but it's not unprecedented.

      We won the Revolution only because we had copious assistance from the French.

      And despite what the militia fucktards think, armed insurrection is not going to topple the U.S. government if it gets out of hand. If you need to revolt, you're either going to need the military behind you (probably not the revolution you're looking for), or bring a tougher one. Hint: a tougher one don't exist.

    2. Re:It's a shame... by couchslug · · Score: 3, Insightful

      "And despite what the militia fucktards think, armed insurrection is not going to topple the U.S. government if it gets out of hand."

      They need only be part of a mass movement that sustains them.
      The government doesn't have enough personnel to secure the whole US against serious _popular_ resistance. The thing about modern armed forces designed to destroy other sophisticated modern armed forces is that they aren't capable of putting all that many boots on the ground. Iraq and Afghanistan are difficult enough, and tiny compared to the USA, and not full of people Americans object to killing.

      In any mass movement, the military itself would be in play, with results depending on the allegiance of individuals or units. There are lots of folks in Combat Arms who aren't going to shoot their kinfolk, and might savor putting politicians against the wall if the situation is right. Direct "toppling" isn't necessarily the mechanism by which government might be changed. Coup and other methods might offer themselves.

      Never underestimate the appeal of mass movements. Should the economic situation get bad enough (the major reason people revolt, not for freedom but for food), ANY conduct becomes reasonable. The ghey and genteel Civil War was a long time ago. In modern civil wars, there is no useful reason to let enemies survive so they are often liquidated (why save them so they can fight again?). The best way to fight any serious internal conflict would be to exterminate ones enemies since they have no worth.

      Everything is cozy now, so none of this is more than speculation. The US isn't hurting, no one is starving, and the economy is showing some signs of health. Crime is low, even auto fatalities are low. It's boring and there is every reason to keep it that way.

      --
      "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
    3. Re:It's a shame... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're assuming that our soldiers will fire on their own countrymen.

    4. Re:It's a shame... by KahabutDieDrake · · Score: 1

      When/if a revolution comes, it will come from the people. And the military is made of those people. The VAST majority of our military is young men and women on the lower end of the social strata. They won't necessarily work together for a common goal, but they won't really fight off the citizens that are, expect in some small percentage. Unfortunately, our military is fast becoming capable of operating without these people, for at least limited time frames. The revolution will be interesting, if nothing else. Film it and we can probably sell it as reality TV. :(

    5. Re:It's a shame... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      also Spain. The biggest battle of the American Revolution was Spain vs Britain over the determination of Gibraltar (still British).

    6. Re:It's a shame... by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 1

      Based on the behavior of cops, that seems plausible enough...

    7. Re:It's a shame... by JockTroll · · Score: 1

      You don't need to "topple the government". Destroy the financial, industrial and communication infrastructure and it will topple by itself. Enact selective assassination of CEOs, kill the key corporate personnel. If you destroy enough of the skilled people and equipment needed by the corporate world to function, it will collapse. You don't need to face off with the military and if you must, do it in the very areas that the economy badly needs.

      --
      Geeks are so full of shit that "beating the crap out of them" takes a whole new meaning.
    8. Re:It's a shame... by blair1q · · Score: 2, Insightful

      We get "popular revolution" every 2, 4, and 6 years. So there's no pressure for the masses to join the militias.

      But that's beside the point. The point is, yes, there is enough military power in the military to stop any military attack on the military from any militia or military on this planet. So as long as that military is protecting the government, this form of government is not going to be revolved by military action. We, or anyone else, would need to get a lot of countries together to accomplish anything revolutionary here.

      Which is why we need to get better at the 2/4/6-year thing, and use ideas and facts to control our destiny, instead of letting money and propaganda be the determining factor.

    9. Re:It's a shame... by DamnStupidElf · · Score: 1

      Soldiers will happily fire on "traitors."

  10. What about the WTO What if they say no to this? by Joe+The+Dragon · · Score: 2, Insightful

    What about the WTO What if they say no to this? What they set the price for some IP to Free?

  11. If profits are more important, why so many laws? by elucido · · Score: 0

    If profits truly are more important than lives, why haven't we created the death engine? Why have we not taken it to the extreme of betting on who lives and dies via tontine to increase profits to the maximum?

    At some point, somewhere in our system, somebody has made the calculation that certain lives matter while the rest of the lives don't matter. If you are wealthy you can bet on when millions of poor people will die indirectly, but if you are poor the tontine is outlawed.

    So it's a bit more complicated. It's a situation where some lives are worth more than others, and wealth has a lot to do with it. Unless you think this is wrong and if so then how would you say society values life in the context of ever increasing profitability?

  12. Re:Yep. Yer boned. by Mordok-DestroyerOfWo · · Score: 4, Insightful

    While I agree that we are exporting America's laws (for better or for worse) I refuse to lay claim to them. Just about every politician out there is a lawyer or former lawyer with absolutely no connection to their respective constituencies. They live privileged lives and pass laws that only benefit themselves. Voter apathy is ungodly high simply because we've been conditioned to believe that anybody not in one of the two parties isn't worth electing. When there is so little difference between D and R who can blame people for simply letting themselves get railroaded.

    --
    "Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right" - Salvor Hardin
  13. India in. Now we only need china, and russia. by unity100 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    that will constitute approx half of world population.

    versus, hollywood.

    who do you think will win ?

    1. Re:India in. Now we only need china, and russia. by unity100 · · Score: 1

      china. india. russia.

      the last of those countries wouldnt hesitate to kill an entire plane full of holywood executives and artists in a freak plane crash.

    2. Re:India in. Now we only need china, and russia. by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 1

      India, China, Russia.

      One of these three is not like the others.

      Hint: Russia has less than half the population of the USA. It's hardly noticable compared to China and India.

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    3. Re:India in. Now we only need china, and russia. by future+assassin · · Score: 5, Informative

      Well the way its going in Canada, Hollywood is already entrenched in out gov pockets even though the majority of Canadian voters don't want the new DMCA. http://www.michaelgeist.ca/content/view/5079/125/ http://www.michaelgeist.ca/content/view/5017/125/ and many more http://www.michaelgeist.ca/index.php

      --
      by TheSpoom (715771) Uncaring Linux user here. I have nothing to add to this but please continue. *munches popcorn*
    4. Re:India in. Now we only need china, and russia. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      FTFA:

      "We will hold talks with like-minded countries (read Brazil, China, Egypt, etc.) and may oppose the ACTA proposal jointly as well as individually by holding talks with countries involved," said an anonymous government official.

      In short, China is trying to be included which can make this a very interesting and powerful movement. China is already being considered around the levels of a superpower with the US. And since China has $1 trillion invested in the US government, it could be one hell of a powerhouse against ACTA if it does indeed join with India in this.

      So, if China does join in it would become more of RIAA/MPAA verse China and a few others. Support the **AA's and the US could see a LOT of problems from China and it's investment. Join with China and the the **AA's will try to give as much hell (no doubt saying that they sold them, an american business, to a foreign country.) Either one and it will be one hell of a mess.

    5. Re:India in. Now we only need china, and russia. by Nysul · · Score: 1

      China probably wants this. They want protections for their IP, and they know they will just ignore the IP of everyone else.

    6. Re:India in. Now we only need china, and russia. by guspasho · · Score: 1

      With half the world trained to have a peasant mentality, don't think that Hollywood won't win.

    7. Re:India in. Now we only need china, and russia. by Jaysyn · · Score: 1

      I'd buy tickets to see that.

      --
      There is a war going on for your mind.
    8. Re:India in. Now we only need china, and russia. by Hurricane78 · · Score: 1

      I would hesitate to NOT do it! ^^

      --
      Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
    9. Re:India in. Now we only need china, and russia. by unity100 · · Score: 1

      170 million in russia, many more in satellite 'republics' and 'commonwealth' members. also, its about also being a superpower. not only population.

    10. Re:India in. Now we only need china, and russia. by unity100 · · Score: 1

      'problems' ?

      if china sells those $1 trillion us govt bonds its holding over one day, it would practically zero the worth of us govt bonds, make us govt unable to cycle its debt by selling bonds, and bankrupt it. also, bottom the dollar in the process.

      usa IS china.

    11. Re:India in. Now we only need china, and russia. by unity100 · · Score: 1

      hahahahaahah.

      china ? what ip ?

    12. Re:India in. Now we only need china, and russia. by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      I'd buy tickets to see that.

      This can be arranged; same plane only, though.

      -FSB

    13. Re:India in. Now we only need china, and russia. by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 1

      142 million in Russia.

      And China plus India plus Russia making up about half the world's population (which it doesn't, by the by, more like 40%) isn't about being a superpower. It's about having a lot of people.

      And Russia doesn't have a lot of people. It's number nine, not number three. Note that Indonesia, Brazil, Pakistan, Bangladesh, and Nigeria all have more people than Russia.

      And Pakistan even has the Bomb....

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    14. Re:India in. Now we only need china, and russia. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The Coalition of Hollywood and Bollywood (and the Chinese and the Russian counterparts) will win.

    15. Re:India in. Now we only need china, and russia. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That was funny and insightful. I was going to propose an even tighter restriction, namely the 6331 Hollywood Boulevard, to be precise.

    16. Re:India in. Now we only need china, and russia. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      that will constitute approx half of world population.

      versus, hollywood.

      who do you think will win ?

      Computer programmer Max Geiger will now enter all the data collected and run the battle scenario 1000 times to determine who is the... Deadliest Warrior!

    17. Re:India in. Now we only need china, and russia. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Russia a superpower?

      Quite frankly, you are one of three things: a paid shill for Putin, severely uninformed, or insane.

      Russia has to worry about whether it is even going to exist a generation from now. It is a resource rich nation that shares a 4000 mile border with a resource starved nation and a sixty million boy surplus (that translates into a sixty million man army in eighteen years).

      Russia also has one of the lowest fertility rates in the continent that has the lowest fertility rate, and one of the largest Muslim populations in Europe.

      In short, Russia will be carved up by the Muslims and the Chicoms, just like Hitler and Stalin did to Poland.

    18. Re:India in. Now we only need china, and russia. by unity100 · · Score: 1

      russia is a superpower. you need to live next to it, and know the region to know about it.

      gone are the days russia was broke and couldnt find the money to fill the tank of a tank. they are rich through energy, and they have revitalized their army.

  14. American laws laid down on the World by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is just American corps. pushing the American government to extend American laws on sovereign nations. The reason is to force the whole world into accepting US dominance in the information age. The US is transitioning away from production and manufacturing towards an information-based economy (entertainment, design, etc.) and they don't want competition in that space.

  15. Yep. Yer boned too. by ciaran_o_riordan · · Score: 4, Insightful

    we're going to use this new treaty to really screw over pretty much..... everyone

    Heh, "we". Who are you? A top executive in the MPAA? Major share holder in Big Pharma?

    Otherwise, you're not in the "we". Whether you're in the USA or not, you're at the other end of the stick.

  16. Good. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Once India starts protesting we can subvert it from within by staging our own shit in the US and it will gain attention because of the ruckus.

  17. Re:Yep. Yer boned. by hedwards · · Score: 1

    Yeah, they are. I'm not sure about other countries, but in the US treaties are even higher than the constitution. Which I don't quite get, seeing as the power to participate in treaties comes from the constitution, at least for us.

  18. Re:Yep. Yer boned. by yariv · · Score: 1

    Who put us in charge anyway... That wasnt too smart.

    You did, so it makes sense.

  19. what i'm wondering is by circletimessquare · · Score: 4, Interesting

    how do these assholes actually expect to enforce acta?

    you can pass all the laws you want. but in terms of actually stopping the spread of pirate media, they would have to fundamentally alter the internet in such a way as to also negate any value anyone attaches to the internet. in other words, they would start a revolt. not an armed revolt, just a sort of utter rejection of their vision of complete centralized control

    it would also be extremely expensive, and they would also have to somehow control the internet internationally AND completely. they would, paradoxically, turn those outsider countries that aren't on the usa's bff list, into outposts of internet freedom

    acta, to me, it seems like a completely desperate ploy, or clueless (or both)

    really, in terms of enforceability, acta is a fucking joke

    --
    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
    1. Re:what i'm wondering is by melikamp · · Score: 1

      We all know that people are free to congregate and exchange information on the Internet, and they cannot stop that. But they can stop cheap drugs from being shipped to a poor country and use patents as an excuse.

    2. Re:what i'm wondering is by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      how do these assholes actually expect to enforce acta?

      you can pass all the laws you want. but in terms of actually stopping the spread of pirate media, they would have to fundamentally alter the internet...

      Thats the plan, from what I remember. ACTA is worded that it would make ISP's liable for what happens on their lines (aka, forcing them to filter everything on the net like the great firewall of China). So if someone pirates something over the internet then groups like the **AA's will be able to sue both the infringer AND the ISP. Combine that with what has been shown as an 'acceptable' fine of a few million dollars and then every ISP will heavily filter the internet just to save their own asses. Complain against the filtering and you'll just be labeled as just wanting to pirate online so only pirates want to be free... or some other BS line they will give.

    3. Re:what i'm wondering is by rahvin112 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      What Hollywood wants is active policing of the internet by all world governments with prison terms handed out to infringes. If governments did go to that step I guarantee they would succeed, at the cost of imprisoning a few million more people while paroling truly violent criminals.

      This is the reason the US government hasn't pursued it, but you should be very afraid of the influence the MPAA can exert, before it was just the RIAA, but now with Hollywood behind it there is a very good chance ACTA will force all the WTO countries to enforce restrictions (that includes China). Once the WTO starts imprisoning people the major easy distribution channels will go dead leaving only secure encrypted and very low volume exchanges, reducing the trade to very minimal which is Hollywood's goal. The tax increases to support the enforcement and the destruction of millions of lives will be enormous, but Hollywood doesn't care.

    4. Re:what i'm wondering is by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      how do these assholes actually expect to enforce acta?

      Requiring filters in the US to block "bad" content passing through the US. Even though the Internet is global, often you'll find the US to be a hub. Most all the hubs are "rich" countries, and if they all get together and block something, it will block it, if not actually, then in practice as the bulk of capacity being off limits to some service or such will greatly limit bandwidth for users.

      Or, as said elsewhere, ACTA members will be barred from doing business with those that don't honor it for certain things, such as seizing shipments passing through their waters, making it illegal to sell those countries certain raw materials that are used to make infringing products, and such.

      Don't think that they can't enforce it (everyone knows it will work as well as prohibition does). To get truly upset, think of what they will try to do to enforce it.

  20. You miss several points by Mathinker · · Score: 1

    > The drugs were developed in hopes of getting some kind of return on investment.

    You make the same assumption the the **AAs make: every infringement is a lost sale (at premium prices). This is obviously silly in some cases. One can imagine an expensive drug which is too expensive for the Indian government to provide to its citizens under its national health plan. Lets assume that this drug is necessary to treat a pandemic within India, so the Indian government decides that it would rather legislate a special exception to respecting the patent on the drug than letting millions of people die. In this case, without the exception, the drug company would not have gained any appreciable income from use of the drug in India, so the "infringement" costs the drug company nothing.

    Unless, of course, the widespread use in India enables the detection of undesirable side-effects which weren't known previously.

    > The pills will cost a lot less if R&D costs to recoup are only $200 million, instead of $2 billion.

    That's a good point, but it doesn't go far enough. There should also be legislation which limits the liability of drug side-effects for companies which deal in good faith, but strips a drug company of its patent in the case where it has been found to be actively negligent with respect to testing the safety of the drug (i.e., in a case where the drug company wouldn't be able to sell the drug anyway, because of the risk of too much liability --- so the patent actually ends up doing nothing but totally blocking the use of the drug). If we had had such a law, for example, then generic Vioxx could have been continued to be used by patients who are much less at risk for its bad side-effects.

  21. Two sides by EEPROMS · · Score: 1

    There are two sides to this argument, if you ever visit Africa the place is flooded with cheap fake drugs with a 10-20% true dosage mostly coming from!!! yep you guessed it INDIA. The question for me is, is the Indian government complaining because the ATA may restrict real sales or are they using this argument as a trojon horse as they are being bribed by the fake drug industry. It is hard to say when dealing with India as corruption at the official level is so endemic.

    1. Re:Two sides by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Please read this http://allafrica.com/stories/200909210807.html before saying India supplies fake drugs to African countries.

    2. Re:Two sides by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You did see your close fliend the china and made India the poster boy for your uninformed comment. Please read this news article http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/China-passing-off-fake-drugs-as-Made-in-India/articleshow/4633377.cms
      NEW DELHI: Are fake drugs manufactured in China being pushed into various African countries with the `Made in India' tag? The Indian government has long suspected this to be the case, but it now has definite evidence for the first time.

      Last week, the National Agency for Food and Drug Administration and Control (NAFDAC) of Nigeria issued a press release stating that a large consignment of fake anti-malarial generic pharmaceuticals labelled `Made in India' were, in fact, found to have been produced in China.

    3. Re:Two sides by EEPROMS · · Score: 1

      This would have worked if the BBC had not sent a reporter to India as a fake buyer and actually found they could buy fake drugs "made locally" in India.

    4. Re:Two sides by victorhooi · · Score: 1

      heya,

      Haha, oh man, the irony....lol...

      Sorry, but for India/China, it's very much you reap what you sow. I mean, we already know the Chinese (btw, I am Chinese, just not from PRC) are prepared to do nearly anything for money. Hell, if they're prepared to put poison in eggs to make them cheaper, or put plastic in milk powder, they'll do anything. I suppose they can plead it's because they're poor though, ultimately it's a personal decision whether you think what they do is justified.

      India and China both engage in various shady practices, so it's kind of funny to see them both screw each other over here.

      Cheers,
      Victor

  22. i'd like to see them try by circletimessquare · · Score: 2, Insightful

    india already flouts laws on hiv drugs. no one is stopping them because it pits humanitarian ideals versus craven corporate interests. the negative pr hit is far larger than any pittance they'd get from a poor country (nevermind the moral argument of lives in the balance, we are talking about corporations here)

    so acta can be as draconian as they want. again, i'd like to see them actually try to enforce the bullshit

    --
    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
    1. Re:i'd like to see them try by oiron · · Score: 3, Informative

      Flouts is too strong a word. Indian law allows the government to license other manufacturers to produce any drugs deemed to be "life saving"...

    2. Re:i'd like to see them try by victorhooi · · Score: 1, Insightful

      heya,

      Yes, but the end result is, India is just being short-sighted. They're flouting their obligations, to get some short-term gain, at the risk of damaging them and the rest of the world in the long term.

      Put it this way, pharmaceutical research is one area where the old argument that patents help innovation really holds water. It's damn expensive to develop and trial a drug, and if there's no gain or the company thinks it's research will just be taken by some dirtbag like India and used then they're just not going to invest in that particular area.

      Case in point - malaria research. Basically eradicated in the Western world, very little research done on it as compared to say, cancer or the hell, ironically even weight loss...

      Whether you like pharmaceutical firms or not, countries like India and Brazil that screw over pharmaceutical companies are only shooting themselves (and the rest of the world) in the foot.

      If they wanted, why doesn't India invest in it's own damn medical research huh? Gee, cause it's cheaper to just steal the research designs from other people who've developed it already, of course.

      Cheers,
      Victor

    3. Re:i'd like to see them try by Jedi+Alec · · Score: 1

      They're flouting their obligations, to get some short-term gain, at the risk of damaging them and the rest of the world in the long term.

      Ehmm, no. You see, a government has obligations to 1 party and 1 party alone, being the citizens that elected it. I know the concept is dazzling, but that is how it is supposed to work.

      Try this one on for fun: put a US politician on a podium, give him a microphone and let him say the following words: "Dear citizens, because of international Intellectual Property laws, the cure for disease X will no longer be available to us, resulting in an estimated $massive_number of deaths over the following year."

      We've already seen what the US thinks of international treaties when it doesn't suit them. Why the hell should the rest of the world give a flying fuck what your corporate overlords whisper into the ear of your government?

      You're on the way down, the countries that rip you off are on the way up. What are you gonna do about it? Shoot them?

      --

      People replying to my sig annoy me. That's why I change it all the time.
    4. Re:i'd like to see them try by victorhooi · · Score: 1

      heya,

      *sigh*, do Amercan schools not teach basic reading comprehension anymore?

      If you actually did know how to read, you'd see the crux of my argument hinged on providing *incentives* to those drug companies to invest in developing those cures.

      Let's take Bob Jones Drug Company. Bob spends billions of dollars, and 10 years and manages to finds a cure for say, malaria. He patents it, and starts selling the drug.

      India comes along, says, gee gosh, I'm not going to pay these crazy Western prices, takes Bob's drug design, and starts churning it out himself.

      Bob sees this, and says, well sod them. India then suffers from a epidemic of say, avian flu (yes, poor examples, but you get the point). People around the world look to Bob to develop a cure. He looks around, and sees the disease mostly afflicts developing countries. What do you think Bob is going to do?

      "Well, f*ck them, they screwed me over last time, I'm going to go develop a cure for obesity".

      I somehow doubt a lot of people in India are suffering from obesity. Malnutrition, mayhaps but I don't think a weight-loss drug is going to help them.

      So you see, young padawan, you're screwing yourself over in the long term.

      The barriers to entry for pharmaceutical research are *incredibly* high. You need obscene amounts of money, an established lab, experienced researchers (PHD's don't grow on trees, you know...), and a lot of know-how. And then several years to go through all the various stages of clinical trials (and another fat wad of cash).

      If you can think of another way to incentivise these companies to invest billions and years of their lives into research, for no gain, please, do share.

      And no, the government's not going to do it. Look at their track record with NASA...

      Cheers,
      Victor

  23. Eventually? by Hurricane78 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I quote:

    “Whenever a controversial law is proposed, and its supporters, when confronted with an egregious abuse it would permit, use a phrase along the lines of 'Perhaps in theory, but the law would never be applied in that way' - they're lying. They intend to use the law that way as early and as often as possible.”

    meringuoid (568297) @ 2005-11-24 16:40 (#14107454)

    --
    Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
  24. Re:Yep. Yer boned. by Jaysyn · · Score: 4, Informative

    Yeah, they are. I'm not sure about other countries, but in the US treaties are even higher than the constitution. Which I don't quite get, seeing as the power to participate in treaties comes from the constitution, at least for us.

    No they aren't. This is the lie they want you to keep repeating until it becomes the truth.

    The Constitution is supreme over laws and treaties; it expressly states (Article VI, Section 2) that: "This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land . . ." This means that any such Law (Act of Congress) which violates the Constitution is automatically made null and void to start with--nullified by the Constitution itself--and therefore cannot be a part of the "supreme Law of the Land." This is also true as to treaties.

    http://www.lexrex.com/enlightened/AmericanIdeal/aspects/limited_gov_treaty.htm

    http://www.uhuh.com/control/contrump.htm

    http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=case&court=us&vol=354&page=1

    --
    There is a war going on for your mind.
  25. Isn't this what it was for? by arkenian · · Score: 1
    I know we all hate ACTA. And I agree 100%. But don't I seem to recall that the 'official' reason the US proposed ACTA in the first place was to use it against indian and chinese companies ripping of US PRODUCTS. Not software patents, not DMCA bullshit, but to prevent china and india from stealing from us with impunity?

    Don't get me wrong, I hope india wins this. But if they do, it will be because we have so far subverted the treaty from its original purpose into this DMCA bullshit.

  26. Re:Yep. Yer boned. by Hurricane78 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Honestly, it’s not America. It’s not even the USA. It’s the US government (and|,) a bunch of criminals.
    And in this case also the EU fake government (as it’s not legally an actual government).
    The people of our unions are mostly OK. I don’t have a problem with them.

    I have a problem with some dicks who are full of themselves thinking that they deserve to be in charge and to profit trough abuse. I have a problem with them intentionally dumbing down the population (or letting it dumb down), and then using them like a herd of cattle, making them angry with lies or using the “don’t care” that they developed, or so they can make new rules with the sole purpose of abusing people for profit.
    It’s how Hitler and Stalin did it. It’s now it’s still done.

    Come on. We’re the intelligent people here! It’s our obligation to figure out a antidote for this.

    --
    Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
  27. Re:Yep. Yer boned. by d34dluk3 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Voter apathy is ungodly high simply because we've been conditioned to believe that anybody not in one of the two parties isn't worth electing. When there is so little difference between D and R who can blame people for simply letting themselves get railroaded.

    Uh, me? The people have the power to vote in whoever they want. The fact that they choose not to use it is their own fault.

  28. i understand what you are saying by circletimessquare · · Score: 4, Interesting

    they would basically turn the west into the corporate equivalent of the bullshit that goes on with the internet in china or iran: centralized monitoring and control, for the sake of $ (rather than political control)

    in other words, they would force a conflict: the ideals of western liberal democracy, versus the corporate imperative to strangle everything to make a buck

    now you can be a complete cynic and pessimist about this conflict, but personally, talking completely out of realism i think, they're fucking out of their mind: people won't stand for it. some of us will make it their passionate life pursuit to circumvent such controls, and those who are successful at routing around the controls will be folk heroes

    i really don't see this weak ass acta subsuming the ideals of western liberal democracy. i'm sorry, but every goddamn teenager will take it as a personal joy to render acta a joke, and they'll be able to do it: all you need is technical knowhow. it beats all the lawyers, all the laws, all the international agreement

    acta is a form of delusion, its doomed. but let them try, just see them crash and burn

    --
    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
    1. Re:i understand what you are saying by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      1 billion people in china live behind a censorship firewall. "those who are successful at routing around the controls will be folk heroes" and prosecuted and send to jail, work camps, have their civil rights removed, being beaten and put on public arranged trials to scare the rest. Circumventing censorship will be affiliated with propagating child porn and terrorism. And I would not bet on the rising of the nerdy masses. Will not happen. As long as the population is not starving or shown something better AND the military is on gouvernments side nothing will happen.

      the peaceful revolution former eastern germany was pure luck. People had a constant vision of a possible better live propagated by western german television AND the military was unwilling to intervene. It could have ended like the Prague spring http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prague_Spring (intervention from the outside, esp. Russia) or the Tiananmen massacre in Peking (domestic military)

  29. Quixotic Attempt I'm Afraid by TuballoyThunder · · Score: 4, Interesting
    I'm glad India is taking a stand that supports its national interests and that position coincides with my belief that intellectual property rights have gone to far. The big "however" is that India does not have a great success rate of stopping a treaty. They did not sign the NPT nor the CTBT and the NPT is in force and the CTBT would be if it was not for the Annex II requirement.

    The only thing that will kill the ACTA treaty is if a significant number of countries refuse to sign it or reject it during ratification. Unfortunately, I fear that any US administration would gladly sign the treaty and the US Senate would readily ratify it. If only the treaty would harm the gay unborn whales...

    1. Re:Quixotic Attempt I'm Afraid by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh yeah? Fine. Given the fact that India does almost zero pharma research, instead investing in patent lawyers and how it can market generics before even legal patent terms expire (If they had their way, every medicine would be copyable from day 1, not after 10 years), Now you want to give them license to counterfeit stuff too?

      Just because a supposed underdog does it does not make anything right.

      Medicines are not invented out of sheer goodwill. Those scientists working on it have to be paid, very expensive equipemtn and lab supplies need to be bought, and extremely expensive FDA clinical trials need to be undertaken. India currently opts to save $$$ millions by simply choosing to copy whatever that's required.

      Come on INDIA, invest in your own medical research a bit.

    2. Re:Quixotic Attempt I'm Afraid by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They did not sign the NPT nor the CTBT and the NPT is in force and the CTBT would be if it was not for the Annex II requirement.

      Bro, India is the only recognized Nuclear power not to have signed the NPT or CTBT. By recognized means, it is legal to sell Nuclear technology/fuel to India by international law. India didn't stop the CTBT but did manage to get away with not signing it and still has almost equal rights as any other nuclear power in the world.

  30. That has been answered by law. by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 1

    The question the modern capitalist must ask themselves is a question of priority. What is more important to you, the lives of poor individuals or profits?

    That has been answered by law:

      - Corporate officials have a duty to run the corporation, within the constraints of the rule of law, to attempt to maximize the value to the stockholders. "Value to the stockholders" is usually financial, though stockholders may decree that other values are to be primary or considered in the mix. (i.e. Hershey's, Google, ...).

      - The government sets the "constraints of the rule of law" such that coercive harm to individuals is prohibited or penalized and strategies to maximize return also promote, rather than hamper, the general welfare.

    So the corporate officers are REQUIRED BY LAW to put the law first and the profit second, considering fallout on others only to the extent that it affects legal constraints and the bottom line (or other desires of the stockholders). If they're causing harm to the "lives of the poor" in a way you think that's improper, one of the following is true:
      - They're breaking a law and should be enjoined and prosecuted or sued for damages.
      - They made poor decisions, harming the interests of their stockholders, and should be educated or replaced.
      - The law needs adjustment.

    High punitive damage awards in lawsuits are part of the way the law maps "not harming others" into "maximizing stockholder value".

    (BP, for instance, seems about to be remapped rather fiercely, unless the corruption of the current government allows them to buy their way out. That's being reflected in their stock price, especially over the last couple days.)

    As for medicine prices, the main problem there is the excessively tight requirements for drug approval by the FDA, where bureaucrats get dinged for letting a drug through that causes some birth defects (i.e. thalidomide) but not for blocking a drug that would otherwise have saved 100,000 a year (i.e. beta blockers for heart attack victims). When the agency was created the congresscritters thought that delaying drugs by more than six months would result in a cost-benefit hit. Now it takes decades and tens to hundreds of million dollars to TRY to bring a drug to market. That price - for the ones that make it to market and the many more that don't - must be paid from the money made on the ones that make it. This prices them out of reach of the third world. Cut those costs and delays and the drug companies would be happy to sell lots of inexpensive stuff. Fast nickels are LOTS better than slow dollars. A few more people would be damaged - and very many more would be helped.

    --
    Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
    1. Re:That has been answered by law. by Jedi+Alec · · Score: 1

      - Corporate officials have a duty to run the corporation, within the constraints of the rule of law, to attempt to maximize the value to the stockholders. "Value to the stockholders" is usually financial, though stockholders may decree that other values are to be primary or considered in the mix. (i.e. Hershey's, Google, ...).

      You know, I keep seeing this particular piece of wisdom parrotted over and over again, yet I have never been able to find any kind of evidence that this is in fact the case. Where does it say that this has to be the case? I fully understand that in the majority of cases potential shareholder will be looking to invest where it makes them the most money, and that if a company does not make the profits the shareholders expect heads will roll.

      Where exactly is this law that says a company must do everything within its power to maximize profits? Citation please?

      --

      People replying to my sig annoy me. That's why I change it all the time.
    2. Re:That has been answered by law. by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 1

      Where does it say that this has to be the case?

      IANAL so take my postings with the requisite amount of salt.

      Corporate law is primarily state level - except as it impacts stock transactions - so "where it is" will vary by state. A good state to start with is Delaware: As of a couple decades ago it was the state with the best terms for corporations and most new ones (that were really interested in doing business) incorporated there. (Some of the old ones reincorporated there as well.)

      A good starting place to look for references is the "corporate officiers" section of the wikipeida article on Fiduciary duty.

      Another is the plantif's pleadings in any of the boilerplate class-action stockholder suits that are filed, like clockwork, whenever a major corporation's stock takes a downturn - especially if certain law firms find anything that can be used as evidence of wrongdoing by corporate officials.

      --
      Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
  31. Re:Yep. Yer boned. by cenc · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Yea, you are going to want to spend some time digging through all the supreme court rulings in that last 40 years or so regards Indian treaties. Granted, the Indian treaties are a very different legal animal from say treatise over copyrights with other countries, but treatise do in fact carry more weight than the constitution in at least very important cases.

    If you are not up for the time to do that here is the basic legal theory upheld by the supreme court on the subject (and I am sure there are better ways of putting it):

    The territory that the U.S. occupies was found by recognition of a set of treaties that in many cases predate the territorial space of the United States. Thus, the existence and enforceability of those treaties makes everything else contained in the constitution possible. The most important of which is the territorial definition of the U.S., along with lots of nice things like mining rights, water rights, hunting rights, and so on.

    For example, this is why Indians have casinos and the individual States in most cases can not really do a whole lot about it. Essentially, most of the United States is under some sort of lease to another government, and if you ignore those "rental" agreements the whole legal mess called the U.S. starts falling apart. Even when the U.S. breaks those treatises, they still have to pay up in court for the damages. One that comes to mind would be things like the Black Hills land claim at the moment. There are hundreds if not thousands of other rulings, and why the U.S. government tends to get its rear eventually handed to them in a court room over breaking those treatise sooner or later.

  32. but what you described is a joke by circletimessquare · · Score: 0

    no one is going to allow hollywood to do that. even in the most cynical pessimistic point of view where that might happen in the usa, there's no leverage the usa has that would make that acceptable to other countries, even very close friends of the usa

    i really wonder why these assholes believe acta is anything but a farce

    completely unenforceable, really

    --
    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
  33. Re:Yep. Yer boned. by TheVelvetFlamebait · · Score: 1

    Voter apathy is ungodly high simply because we've been conditioned to believe that anybody not in one of the two parties isn't worth electing.

    No, it's because the two parties both do a satisfactory job at running the country, and they don't really mind which one gets in.

    Think about it. Ideally, votes are used as a tool for actively changing between governments and government policies. Ideally, politicians maintain their beliefs, present their policies, and we choose between them, thus giving us maximum possible choice in how our country is run. This, of course, is not the case. Politicians realised pretty quickly that they get a much better result with compromise, and pre-empting the public with what they want. Suddenly, you have multiple parties aiming for the same target, so they become pretty similar. The point of this target is to satisfy a sizable portion of the population, so a sizable portion of the population is generally satisfied by both parties.

    This is democracy working. "Voter apathy" (it's not truly apathy) simply means a job well done.

    --
    You know, there is a difference between trolling and pointing out the flaws in your reasoning. Just saying.
  34. Re:Yep. Yer boned. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    > we've been conditioned to believe that anybody not in one of the two parties isn't worth electing.

    That's like saying that my conditioning to not touch a hot stove is false.

    Seriously. I've been following the non-major candidates for over a decade now, looking at their platforms, reading their public statements... and they've universally *sucked*. At best, they fail to even tie the moderates of the big two parties in terms of "would I trust this person with these powers". They tend to be single-issue candidates - who may well have a good position on that single issue - and then you look at their position on other issues and realize that they're lunatics. The sane independents (who you may notice do occasionally win) tend to be ones that were driven out of a major party by its internal party squabbling.

    Instead of blaming some vast conspiracy, instead realize the simpler truth: the moderates got absorbed by the big two before you or I were even born. If we all paid a little closer attention, we could make better choices in the party primaries, which would then provide us with better available choices in the real elections. (And if you're unfortunate enough to live in one of the states that won't let you vote in more than one party's primary, then apply a little game theory - go vote for the sanest candidate in the crazier party's primary).

  35. India USA Strategic meeting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    wonder how this will play out in their strategic meetings..
    http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/First-India-US-Strategic-Dialogue-to-be-held-today/articleshow/6005810.cms

  36. What the? by SmallFurryCreature · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Any capitalist will answer: profit.

    If you want someone to care about people find a socialist or a communist. Capitalist are not nice people, it is in their motto:

    "It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker, that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest. We address ourselves, not to their humanity but to their self-love, and never talk to them of our own necessities but of their advantages. Nobody but a beggar chooses to depend chiefly upon the benevolence of his fellow-citizens."

    -- Adam Smith (The Wealth of Nations, 1776)

    Read it and try to understand its true meaning. Not the meaning for when you are well off and society is running smoothly but when there is some problem. Like say a disaster.

    Adam Smith says that in a disaster, it is perfectly reasonable to charge a premium for emergency supplies and only a beggar would expect a fair price. For a capitalist, profits are the only thing that counts and the butch, the brewer and the baker under Adam Smith will let people die who can't pay the prices they charge. Of course, this also means that if ever something was to happen to them, they would be the ones doing the dying.

    And it works, when society is doing well. You can life your entire life as a baker and never be faced with someone who is on the edge of starvation. I was a baker in my younger years and I never had someone beg for bread.

    In practice supermarkets charge a "low" price for food and accept truly minuscule mark-ups on essential items. Eating in the west can truly be cheap, eating healthy is another matter. But this doesn't mean the Adam Smith way is a nice way. It is not for nothing that the poorer people often eat unhealthy, go and check the prices for healthy food (fresh vegetables) with the cost of absolute bottom line food. 50 cent frozen pizza etc. You can live on that for a day, no way you can cook a decent meal for that. So, the delivers off cheap food for all also deliver unhealthy food. Not so nice of them after all is it? Their profits are more important then the health of their customers.

    Free choice? yes, you are free to eat bad. YOU are free to eat bad, because you can probably afford to eat better. But with ever lower wages and ever higher costs of living, a lot of people cannot. It is already well known that Africa is a dumping ground for western food that is no longer sellable in the west. Chicken refrozen a dozen times over is flooding the market, ruining the local industry. Profits of western capitalists again more important then decency.

    Read up on the true effects of free market economy and you will see just how badly real capitalist are for people who do not belong to the elite. And you like me are most likely part of that elite or at least close enough not to be harmed by them to much. For now. Until something goes wrong. Like the economic crisis. Notice how the truly rich are not hurting at all. No, loosing 1 billion when you got a dozen is NOT hurting.

    --

    MMO Quests are like orgasms:

    You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.

    1. Re:What the? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Capitalism works when people make decisions taking into account how it will affect people 7 generations down the line and when it isn't used to defraud.

      Otherwise, it destroys itself.

      The advantage it has over communism, socialism, or any other economic system is it pits profits against each other. Eventually one side wins and destroy's the whole cake and we start off where we left off.

    2. Re:What the? by mdielmann · · Score: 3, Interesting

      And this is what makes me chuckle at free-market economists. The invisible hand only works when people have an informed choice, and give a damn. What tends to work better for managing the market is a big fucking stick and the warning, "You can make as much profit as you want, but when you start treating humanity as a source of profits and nothing else, we're going to start spanking." That's what any reasonable government would do, but governments are made of people, and people tend to be greedy...

      --
      Sure I'm paranoid, but am I paranoid enough?
  37. Remember that Simpson episode ? by aepervius · · Score: 1

    Where you could vote for either D or R but they both turn out to be ET bent on enslaving earth ? I always took that episode to be chillingly too near the reality.It may be more subtle than it was in europe middle age, and more class chane may be allowed than it was, and we are afforded a bit more freedom, but we really have a population of a few % "master" and a 95+% of serf.

    --
    C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
    visit randi.org
  38. IIRC this is even better by aepervius · · Score: 1

    If I recall correctly there is a provision in the WTO (or some subsequent treaty) that in case of medical emergency the IP law can be circumvented. Many country have declared such an emergency for AIDS, and therefor are fully legally allowed to produce cheap anti viral despite not having the patent. The *flouting* is on the side of the patent holder which protest against such treaty because it destroy their bottom line.Another such a country IIRC are in south east asia. Can't rememebr which.

    --
    C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
    visit randi.org
  39. what a douchebag by circletimessquare · · Score: 3, Insightful

    morality check: which is more important?

    1. saving human lives
    2. enforcing ip law

    if they pirate the drug design and make the drugs without a license, guess what happens? THEY SAVE HUMAN LIVES

    i think that pretty much trumps every goddamn thing you wrote, no?

    poor countries can't afford to abide by ip law, genius

    so they have my blessing and the blessing of everyone else with a simple moral compass, to rip off a rich country's pharmaceutical research TO SAVE LIVES

    corporate profit is not important than human life, despite the fact that so many douchebags like yourself think otherwise

    --
    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
    1. Re:what a douchebag by beanyk · · Score: 1

      It may be in the poor country's interest to ignore IP laws to save lives now, but that doesn't make the GP wrong. The cost of depriving pharmaceutical companies of profits -today- may be fewer improved drugs -tomorrow-.

      Sure you can treat HIV/AIDS with drug cocktails now, but you can't -cure- it. And without lots more research -- paid for by those huge profits -- perhaps we'll never see a cure.

    2. Re:what a douchebag by melikamp · · Score: 1

      Why would a for-profit pharma company ever develop a cure for anything? They are totally set selling you the AIDS relief drugs for the rest of your life. If they make a cure, then AIDS will simply go away and they will loose that entire market.

    3. Re:what a douchebag by DamnStupidElf · · Score: 1

      Your faith in big pharmaceutical companies is amusing. The U.S. government funds close to a third of medical research, much of which ends up being patented and marketed by a large pharmaceutical company.

    4. Re:what a douchebag by victorhooi · · Score: 1

      heya,

      I'm sorry, but it's silly childish people like you who get us into messes like these.

      If you actually bothered to read what I wrote, I said they were seeking short term gain (in this case, saving lives, as you say), for long-term harm (i.e. not saving many more lives in the future). Sorry, but at the end of the day, all your hyperbole about "THEY SAVE HUMAN LIVES" is useless.

      By your same logic, these drug companies that invent these drugs, gosh, they should be put up on pedestals and worshipped, because they SAVE HUMAN LIVES. I for one have little faith that the Indians, Chinese, Brazillians, whatever, could do it themselves, not because they're not capable of intrinsically, but simply because they don't have the infrastructure, funds, or medical know-how yet.

      I certainly don't like pharmaceutical companies, but I see them for what they are - profit-driven companies that are prepared to develop life-saving drugs as long as they can sell them. You take that away, and you're up s*it creek, seriously.

      And please, the government has got to be one of the worst ways of investing in this - they're good for things with little chance of any profit in the near/medium term - E.g. public transport in population-ally sparse areas like Australia, or space exploration, a la NASA - but look at the incredibly bureaucratic mess that you have to put up with in those bodies (Cityrail in Australia and NASA in the US, to use my two examples).

      You know, they've done studies on children, on delayed gratification, and yes, it takes a certain maturity to develop those skills. I'm certainly lacking it e.g. when it comes to gadgets, or beta software *grins*. However, it seems that near-sighted people like you are lacking it completely when it comes to critical things like SAVING PEOPLE'S LIVES!!! (sic).

      Cheers,
      Victor

    5. Re:what a douchebag by victorhooi · · Score: 1

      heya,

      Err, because it's not one single pharmaceutical company, but many? And if they don't do it, another will? The pharmaceutical industry is *fiercely* competitive, as well as requiring ludicrous amounts of money to fund.

      It's a basic competitive market, with your normal supply-demand laws. Also, it's a bit cynical to think they'd never develop a cure - why the heck would they string you along for? The good PR for having developed *drumroll* the cure *drumroll* is benefit alone to any company, and a good way to show you're better than .

      However, pharmaceutical companies are *incredibly* apprehensive about developing drugs for diseases afflicting the developing world, probably due to have been screwed over in the past for little profit. E.g.:

      http://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/article.cfm?articleid=2498

      Look, they are certainly not saints, they're profit-driven companies, but you have to understand how they operate if you want to see how you can direct them towards the greater public good.

      Cheers,
      Victor

    6. Re:what a douchebag by melikamp · · Score: 1

      why the heck would they string you along for?

      Hahahahahaha, hahahaha... [Hold on, I need a glass of water...] Hahahaha... Seriously though, the answer is "money".

      It's a basic competitive market, with your normal supply-demand laws.

      This could hardly be more wrong. The market is awash with government-granted monopolies. So a big pharma company with wads of cash can buy a start-up that developed a miracle drug, patent it, and then deliberately murder (albeit indirectly) thousands of people in the US and millions of people worldwide by simply refusing to allow anyone else to produce and sell the same drug at cost. Normal supply-demand laws my ass.

  40. Re:Yep. Yer boned. by Evtim · · Score: 0

    You put yourselves in charge just like any other empire. These days I never say USA. I say the American Empire.

    Even the public behavior of POTUS is designed after Roman emperors. The gestures, the statue, the elevation above the crowd, the lot. I say the first step you Americans need to take is to acknowledge that you are an Empire and ask yourselves where it will lead you. Then perhaps you might muster the strength to dismantle your Empire before it collapses on you.

  41. The world blames you - regardless of ur claim by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    As an immigrant, I can attest to the fact that this law (and most of the US foreign policy) is quite selfish and short sided. Americans in general didnt seem to care bout this until 9/11. Now the masses are beginning to see how foreign policy affects US - and the price US pays in blood & treasure.

    So you may not support the policy - but since it is a democracy, you are the final reason for the policy to be so messed up!

  42. Here is what will happen... by pankajmay · · Score: 3, Insightful

    A point many people probably didn't notice is that India is not really pissed off at the whole ACTA treaty.

    The major reason for India's tirade seems to be the fact that (in addition to Pharmaceutical situation, of course) it was left out of negotiations. In a multi-polarized world, India increasingly sees itself as an important node in the global market. Had the negotiations proceeded in an all-inclusive manner, I am pretty sure most countries' governments would have happily and silently signed oppressive laws into place.

    In a way, this "unfair" tactic by western countries, I believe did push India over the edge, but surely the humanitarian, people-friendly position is not why India and other countries are opposing this law. It benefits the Indian Pharmaceutical companies and it is in India's benefit to fight this both for trying to keep its industry alive and asserting its influence.

    For the record - I am Indian. And yes, I am opposed to many tough measures in the ACTA -- but I have this sneaky suspicion that just to appease India and other countries, the other countries will throw a ball in their direction -- give them some special concession in a very limited area -- and then all these countries will happily climb on to the ACTA bandwagon!

    For all those expecting a showdown between India/China vs. the rest of the world -- chances are that it will never actually develop into something more than a few provocative statements here and there -- fervent negotiations will go on to give them some choicest concessions, so they can all start oppressing people everywhere asap... of course, this will be marketed heavily as something "amazingly good" for the people of the world!

  43. Re:Yep. Yer boned. by ThatsNotPudding · · Score: 1

    Who put us in charge anyway

    Two mushroom-shaped clouds.

  44. EFF by Misch · · Score: 3, Informative

    EFF is looking for people to contact their representatives in the US, especially if you are in a state with a senator on the Finance committee, or the House Ways and Means / Trade subcommittee.

    --

    --You will rephrase your request for me to go to hell. Goto statements are not acceptable programming constructs
    1. Re:EFF by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      Someone please mod the parent up! Gees, the comment's been there a while and it's still at 1. It's informative, interesting, and insightful unless you think ACTA is a good thing.

  45. yeah, that's the pessimist's argument by circletimessquare · · Score: 1

    and i'm not buying it

    its hard to understand how revolutionary governments are not your friend (referring to your examples). but it's pretty easy to understand corporate greed is not your friend

    --
    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
  46. Re:Yep. Yer boned. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And the fact that reducing barriers to trade is a good thing that each little factory in the town of Butfuck, Anystate doesn't want to happen means that overriding the democratic process through a negotiation where two countries agree to lower tariffs with each other is a bad thing because?

  47. follow the bouncing ball, genius: by circletimessquare · · Score: 1

    a poor country doesn't have money. they can't pay. the drug company with the ip won't be making money from that country, ever. if they give poor country drugs for free, they won't make money. if they deny the poor country the drugs it needs, they won't make money. getting a poor country cheap drugs, or not, makes no difference to the financial bottom line

    meanwhile, they'll make plenty of profit from rich countries. the fact that the rich will pay and the poor won't pay does not in any way change the pharmaceutical company's fortunes or inclination to do research

    so its a simple act of charity to look the other way on ip laws in poor countries and save some lives

    but you, you'd rather squeeze a poor country for cash (and not get any), rather than save lives. therefore, you are an immoral low iq douchebag

    --
    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
  48. Re:Yep. Yer boned. by veeren76 · · Score: 1

    You are continuing with the same mistake Christopher Columbus did, he was searching for Asian-India and he landed on America and called people here Indians.
    Now when the talk is been happening on Asian-Indian drugs ... you are still talking about Native-American Indians. :)

    --
    Common sense is not common
  49. Re:Yep. Yer boned. by cenc · · Score: 1

    Yea, I don't buy that political bs distinction. It is a completely none-derogatory and officially used term used throughout Indian / Native America / guys that got here first groups.

    I know certain political groups would like to make "Indian" the "n" word, but it is not. Now, asserting that I am somehow less of a "native" than someone's else, even though my family has lived in the Americas for the last 350+ years is offensive. If that is the case, then strictly speaking there is no such thing as a "native" American.

    But, not really too interested in getting in to that discussion at the moment.

  50. Anyone Rational People in the Room? by midway22 · · Score: 1
    How do most advanced drugs get created? By socialist governments? Or maybe by underground tech communities? Small businesses? Humanitarian groups? Nope, American and other free market Corporations.

    So you want to take away the ability for a these companies to keep the rights to their products? Alright, we can do that, but then what incentive is there for the company to invest large portions of their budget into R&D for new products that they will have to give away? This lack of protection will stop the production of new medicines and will hurt the people you say the corporations are screwing... the poor who need drugs. If we had not had the corporations and copyright protections for their drugs in the past; we would not have had half the vaccines, cures and treatments that many here are complaining greedy companies are withholding. You are basically killing the hand that feeds you.. Wake up and look at the whole cycle. McDonalds doesn’t give every homeless person a Big Mac because it’s the humanitarian thing to do; it would kill their ability to serve anyone a Big Mac. If you want to give away great new products/services start a non-profit or humanitarian organization and do it! Stop bitching about people who choose to make a profit while you sit on the sideline telling people what to do with their money or IP.

    I really don't know a ton about the specifics of ACTA but the overall idea of protecting a companies copyrights especially in the drug, technology and media arenas is necessary for the whole cycle of creation to continue. Let large markets of people get these products for free and you erode the incentives and slow the innovation/production of better goods.

    1. Re:Anyone Rational People in the Room? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How do most advanced drugs get created? By socialist governments? Or maybe by underground tech communities? Small businesses? Humanitarian groups? Nope, American and other free market Corporations.

      In reality significant funding for pharmaceutical R&D in the USA comes from most of the sources you mention, not just corporate funding. First, there is direct funding from the the Federal Government through the auspices of the National Institute for Health or the Center for Disease Control and Prevention, along with some agencies (like both the FDA and CDC) doing direct research. Second ,there still is a lot of research done by universities and other primarily academic institutions (many of which receive some State and Federal funding). Third, there are non-profit funding groups, usually founded to support research into specific diseases, but some are more general. Corporate funding is only the fourth source of R&D funding, and by actual dollars only account for about one third of the money going towards pharmaceutical research. So in summation, while corporate dollars are useful, they are far from the only thing driving modern pharmaceutical R&D.

  51. ACTA is wrong for the following reasons: by dooode · · Score: 1

    1) Only select group of rich countries were part of ACTA negotiations.

    As per wikipedia entry: "The negotiations for the ACTA treaty are conducted behind closed doors by a select group of over 30 countries. The treaty was developed outside of normal IP venues such as the World Intellectual Property Organization and the World Trade Organization (post TRIPs). The Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF) and Public Knowledge filed a FOIA request which was denied."

    Countries such as India/China/Brazil in combined have over half the world population (and probably more than 50% drugs consumption), but were never involved in the treaty negotiations.

    2) India is one of the largest producer of generics drugs. As a matter of fact over 90% of the generics used in Africa are made in India. They range from mass epidemics like maleria, cholera and other diseases that citizens of rich European countries and the US don't even hear about these days. And "surprisingly" they come at a fractional cost as compared to once produced in Zurich and California. An example could be standard Penicillin tablets whose price varies between $1 - $30 in US but just 10 Paise in India ($1 US ~= 45 Indian rupees, 1 Indian Ruppee = 100 paise). Yes I am not joking, that's true.

    3) US/Scandanavian healthcare industry is very different than the third world health-care

    Typically, medical-insurance covers you when you get sick in US, and that includes the cost of medicine. In India medical insurance is hardly heard of. And then there is the dynamics of scale.

    It is other thing that after staying in US for some time I appreciate Indian health-care system much more. The level of commercialization in US is a hell lot creepy. Even after spending over $2.5 trillion per year (in 2008*), if US can't guarantee healthcare for its citizens, it has no right to enforce the same practices to the third world.

    *http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_the_United_States