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Doctor Slams Hospital's "Please" Policy
Administrators at England's Worthing Hospital are insisting that doctors say the magic word when writing orders for blood tests on weekends. If a doctor refuses to write "please" on the order, the test will be refused. From the article: "However, a doctor at the hospital said on condition of anonymity that he sees the policy as a money-saving measure that could prove dangerous for patients. 'I was shocked to come in on Sunday and find none of my bloods had been done from the night before because I'd not written "please,"' the doctor said. 'I had no results to guide treatment of patients. Myself and a senior nurse had to take the bloods ourselves, which added hours to our 12-hour shifts. This system puts patients' lives at risk. Doctors are wasting time doing the job of the technicians.'"
Forced gratitude has zero meaning.
But in the US all it would take is one catastrophic delay and there would be millions of dollars in lawsuits.
The stories and info posted here are artistic works of fiction and falsehood.
Only fools would take it as fact.
while I'm all for manners, refusing vital blood tests when doctors forget to put the word "please" on weekend requests just seems damn right stupid and dangerous. How can any manager sit there and support this measure?
This sounds like something out of a Dilbert cartoon or from Office Space, I could just see him saying "Yeah... you didn't put please on your TPS reports... so I'm going to need you to come in Saturday, m'kay?"
my karma will be here long after I'm gone
It should be a cut-and-dry case for management though. Workers won't do the job they signed up to do, fire them. It doesn't matter if you were hired to flip burgers, do blood tests, be a code monkey or sort mail. If you don't do the job you were hired to do, you get fired.
Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
I have to imagine that this would open the hospital up to some liability issues. The first time someone dies because a test wasn't run in time, I have a hard time seeing a jury accepting "the doctor didn't ask me nice enough" as an excuse for not running the test the doctor ordered.
It doesn't seem like its the technicians who are forcing this through. TFA says it was the management who decided it was a good idea to "ease pressure". Which probably meant that the techies were feeling overworked (they probably are overworked) and complained (not really expecting something like THIS to happen). And instead of doing anything constructive (or maybe they're just all out of money), the management went for some crazy ass stupid idea that somehow past muster.
Pointy Head Boss eh? IT isn't the only place where they exist.
Having done alot of chemo and hospital over the years and having a number of doctors in my immediate family (1 heart, 1 gastro, 1 family practice, 1 abdominal) and a doctor turned administrator, I bet the doctors have been jackasses and the hospital administrators pushed this down the throats of the doctors because they'd treated the lab folks like cattle.
I bet there were a ton of meetings about how to balance out increased workload with less staffing and the administrator's solution was "please".
They're called written _orders_ for a reason... that is, they have all the justification that is required to simply be followed. While it's all very well and good to want people to be polite, it is no more required that a doctor remember to say please than it is required that air traffic controllers say "please" when directing airplanes.
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
I worked in a path lab for 3 years, and i saw everything you could imagine right down to someone threatening staff because they weren't allowed to keep a biopsied body part.
the medical field is shitty, never get involved in it.
If you mod me down, I will become more powerful than you can imagine....
Would it kill you to do your fucking job without having to be coddled, you whiny little bitch?
No? Clean out your desk, because I'll find someone else who will. It doesn't mean the doctors treat the staff like shit, but a minimum of doing the tasks you were hired to do is absolutely expected, demanded in exchange for your paycheck. What next? Should the doctor have slip a $5 note with the request? Bullshit. Do. your. fucking. job.
There is very little future in being right when your boss is wrong.
INTERCAL is an esoteric programming language meant as a parody of stuffy, arcane programming language requirements. One of its more interesting requirements involves the "PLEASE" statement. As an undocumented feature of the language, the compiler will fail if programs are either too polite, or insufficiently polite - which involves placing the PLEASE keyword in front of statements the correct number of times.
Kind of like here - if the Doctor just peppers all of his written requests with too many PLEASE statements, that's condescending right there - too polite. But insufficient politeness is equally worthy of wrath - all completely nonsensical requirements, dehumanizing the interaction even as they demand for a confusingly artificial subset of human interaction.
Ryan Fenton
From reading TFA (I know, I know...) it seems like more of a "if you can't be bothered to remember one thing your test couldn't have been that important" idea. No clue if it's an appropriate move, but it does seem like an awful lot of whining for what is essentially a minor procedural change.
Literalism isn't a form of humor, it's you being irritating.
No manager of skill would ever say that. But every manager of skill would certainly think it.
Science advances one funeral at a time- Max Planck
This makes me wonder how big of an asshole the doctors had been to force this kind of a policy on them.
I swear to God...I swear to God! That is NOT how you treat your human!
The Sun has no veracity. I seriously doubt there's any requirement to say "please". Am I accusing a major national newspaper of outright lying?
Yes.
However, what I do believe is that the overworked lab didn't agree with the doctor that these tests had to be done immediately. All doctors always insist that their tests are urgent (and I don't fault them for this) but the lab has to consider priorities.
One of the good things about living in Texas is that it is always acceptable to hold the door open for anybody, and more generally than that, it's never impolite to be polite.
expecting the staff to scrape and bow and tug their forelock as they mumble "Yes M'Lord. Right away M'Lord. May it please M'Lord."
If the doctors were expecting the technicians to go out of their way (scrape and bow and tug their forelock, whatever that means... BTW it's the 20th century in the UK too you know; they're not stuck in the dark ages), or if they were asking the technicians to do a personal favor, then perhaps you would have a point.
In fact, by requiring the doctors to say "please", the administration is effectively telling the doctors that the support services they need to be able to do their jobs, are there only as a personal favor that they have to earn, and can be denied on whim. It's about power, and it's disgusting. They ruin the meaning of the word "please" by making it a mandatory formality. Shall the doctors then demand the same of others? Perhaps the patients? To what madness will this lead????
EMS paramedic: Pardon me, doctor, please, sorry, thank you, the patient was involved in a head-on collision and is unconscious and losing a lot of blood, thank you, sorry, thank you.
Doctor: Thank you paramedic, sorry, please, your hair looks good today, thank you, sorry but I'm afraid I cannot operate on this patient, sorry, thank you. If the patient is able to say "please" neither vocally nor in written form, I must follow hospital policy and deny medical treatment. Sorry, please, and thank you.
Also... troll detected. The doctors are the ones effectively being asked to bow, and the doctors are the ones explicitly being required to say please. How did you go from that to thinking the doctors are the ones expecting the technicians to say "may it please m'lord"?
Insisting people say please is a silly rule but that doctor's condescending attitude towards "technicians" sums up much of what is wrong with modern medicine. The sooner the "technicians" come up with decent expert systems so we can finally get rid of the self opinionated medical practitioner elite the better.
The story is from The Sun. It would be worth checking if the story was true before getting worked up about it...
You shouldn't have to say 'please' for someone to do the job they were hired to do... it's not a bloody favor you're asking them to do, it's what they're paid for.
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Why does this story not have a 'Canada' tag, assholes? Is it because we Canucks are perceived to be benign followers to you pieces of shit? Tabernac, fuck you (please pardon my French).
In the UK you are perfectly able to go elsewhere to a private hospital - you just have to have private insurance or pay cash.
The moral is ... you missed what was probably your only chance this decade to get laid because you were being what you thought was clever.
Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
I like this rule.
You probably have never worked with MDs before. But let me tell you they are the worst people to deal with. Because they have a Dr. for a prefix and a MD for a suffix to their name they act like they are the smartest person in the world. So when they encounter something new to them, and out of their main scope they get very offensive, rude and makes everyones lives a little bit more stressful.
They will often treat non-MDs who work with them as underlings, who job is purely to aid the doctor from doing those little jobs that they don't like to do. They often hide the fact that they are jerks under the catch phrase "lives are at stake". Which is a medical term for "Think of the children" which also means "I want to do it the way I want to".
Forcing them to be polite while seems like just a silly step is actually quite powerful. Saying please before hand means that the work being done is done for the doctors benefit at the expense of someone elses time. Vs. Just shooting out orders that says you are here for me and just me.
At work we have a policy if a doctor is calling and is cursing and yelling at us without giving us any useful information we can tell them to call back after they have calmed down then we can help you. It isn't about restricting free speech is is about keeping things professional and trying to keep things running orderly.
Yes there is a cost savings by making the Dr. think twice, as well it can help keep the load down for the labs for a while.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
I had to go into the emergency room last year. I found that there is a very strict hierarchy there, and that apparently, doing such a thing as a blood test is completely beneath a doctor. No wonder they're displeased at having to use the word, "please." God forbid a doctor condescend to his underlings.
-- I am. Therefore, I think!
In general, I totally disagree.
If I'm dining out and a waitress brings me a drink, I say "Thank you." If they ask if I'd like something, I say "yes, please" or "no, thank you." Maybe my mother just beat it into me (not literally) but I can't help myself and I think it's appropriate.
If I were a doctor, I'd probably ask the techs to "get Mrs. Jones's blood to the lab ASAP please" unless I was distracted with trying to keep Mrs. Jones alive, and even then I might well out of habit.
If you read the article, the goal of the "Please" isn't actually civility, it's to make the doctors think if the test is necessary. I assume there's some higher cost to weekend testing than week-day testing as it's a weekend policy.
To require it in a medical concept is nuts. If a doctor orders a test, he should expect it to happen without having to write some "magic word" on the order.
The preferred solution is to not have a problem.
Yup. I refuse to call a doctor "doctor" I call them by their first name.
There are an amazing number of these ego maniacs that get insulted that I don't call them "doctor".
"My degree deserves respect!", no you need to EARN my respect.
On the same note, Call your Dentist "doctor" or "doc" they really appreciate that as the MD's constantly tell dentists they are not doctors. Yet dentists do more to promote better general health than any MD.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
Because they have a Dr. for a prefix and a MD for a suffix to their name they act like they are the smartest person in the world.
They've been through medical school, so yeah, I'd say they are some of the smartest people in the world. I'm not saying they have the right to be assholes, but it seems like elitism is justified here.
They often hide the fact that they are jerks under the catch phrase "lives are at stake". Which is a medical term for "Think of the children" which also means "I want to do it the way I want to".
Except that "lives are at stake" is likely to actually be true. Do you have a specific example of where "the way I want to" is actually arbitrary?
Forcing them to be polite while seems like just a silly step is actually quite powerful.
I don't think it's likely to accomplish what you're suggesting. At best, it'd get them to grudgingly start saying please and thank you -- and would you really rather have a sarcastic "please" than none at all?
the work being done is done for the doctors benefit at the expense of someone elses time. Vs. Just shooting out orders that says you are here for me and just me.
Versus, say, you're all there for me, the patient.
At work we have a policy if a doctor is calling and is cursing and yelling at us without giving us any useful information we can tell them to call back after they have calmed down then we can help you.
That part is key. Also, "cursing and yelling" is something you might actually complain about, compared to "not saying please."
Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
Given the source of this story, I doubt it's true or complete, but assuming it is...
I like this rule, except that the failure to write "please" should not prevent the actual test from being performed when the doctor orders it to be done.
Maybe fine the doctor $10 every time they fail to say "please" on a form, put the doctor's names up on a wall of shame, or make them buy the next round of flowers for the office.
But anyone in the medical field should know that you do not withhold medical information that is possibly vital to a patient's health because the doc forgot to say "pweddy pweaze wiff sugar on top" on the form. Ever.
I'm not saying courtesy is unimportant, or that doctors have the right to be rude, only that the patient shouldn't suffer because their doctor is a dickhead to the support staff.
"This post contains words, known to the State of California to cause thought. Wash brain thoroughly after reading."
This sounds like a punishment for doctors being rude. It is pretty common that doctors abuse nurses and tech staff and it is understood that nurses and tech staff just suck it up.
From TFA: The managers said the move is aimed at easing pressure on hospital workers charged with performing blood tests by making doctors consider whether the tests are essential.
Let me clarify that I am a physician. Thank god I don't work in the UK, however.
This is typical of the problems you get when a hospital is run by "business administrators". Please note: ALL TESTS ORDERED BY A DOCTOR ARE ESSENTIAL. What, you think we like to take time out of our lives to write down lab orders, and take more time interpreting them, just to push paper around? Because we have stock in ballpoint pen manufacturers?
Honestly any person who alters a medical instruction - say nursing staff who fail to dispense correct, prescribed medication or lab staff who decide not to perform correct, prescribed tests are taking a MEDICAL decision. This implies two things: first, they are practicing medicine without being licensed to do so. Secondly, the must assume responsibility for the consequences of their decision. If something happens to a patient because the lab "deemed" that the test was "not necessary", guess whose fault it is?
This is a thinly veiled attempt to reduce hospital costs by not hiring more lab workers to cover the weekends. Or some idiot in accounting thinks that if he limits the amount of testing, he will essentially limit costs (because of course running no tests is far cheaper than running tests). The hidden cost of course is the morbidity/mortality of the patients. But hey, what's an extra day in the hospital for the patient - the bed will be filled by SOMEONE anyway, right?
Unfortunately I find that physicians are too good natured or too wrapped up in their work to get organized and tackle crap like this head on. Perhaps the hospital administrators should start saying "please" to the physicians for them to come to work every day. /rant
Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
After hours the doors require you to swipe your student ID to get in. It's a pain, so decent folk don't let the door swing shut after getting the reader to take their ID.
Wait... what?? You really don't understand why you have to swipe your card, do you? It's one thing if you know the person -- and yet totally different if you're holding the door open for strangers.
The good news is you're still in school. Stay there until you learn something. If you're lucky you might learn 2 somethings like why this is stupid. Really, get a clue. This is irresponsible especially in today's society.
And interfering with medical care is OK with you? Please get your panties in a bunch in another line of work.
"I believe in Karma. That means I can do bad things to people all day long and I assume they deserve it." : Dogbert
Just because someone hasn't been through medical school doesn't mean that they couldn't have gone to medical school. Am I automatically less intelligent because I chose a career that isn't in the field of medicine, or that doesn't require a few extra years of school? It's not like the day I got my bachelor's degree I stopped learning new things. I learn more every day while working.
I'm sure there are plenty of doctors out there that are smarter than me. I'm also sure there are plenty of doctors out there that are dumber than me. I hope that all doctors out there know more about medicine than me, but I'm willing to bet that very few of them know more about my profession than I do.
The fact that someone spent more time in school than someone else doesn't automatically means that they're smarter than them, it probably just means that their priorities were different. And it certainly doesn't give them the right to be an elitist asshole. Cure cancer, and then you've earned the right to be an elitist asshole. But even then, you're still an asshole, and you should expect people to respond accordingly.
One time I threw a brick at a duck.
Perhaps they find it insulting because it IS insulting?
They wish to be called Doctor and they've earnt the right to be called doctor. If someone named Richard says "please call me Rich, not Dick", do you then go around calling him Dick? Do you address important business clients you're meeting for the first time just by their first name?
You are deliberately choosing not to address them by their title against their wishes. That is a calculated insult.
I suspect that's not even it. I suspect it is because doctors tend to have an over inflated sense of importance, and enough of them had behaved badly enough that the techs started to throw a fit. Someone in the office politics sort of way decided that this was a way that they could 'force' the doctors to be nicer. This sort of thing rarely works, but people keep trying.
To some people the idea of titles is demeaning.
To address one differently then another is to assume a different value to that person over others. Many people don't feel that education level, or other factors, intrinsically throw someone into a different value versus any other person.
"People who think they know everything are very annoying to those of us who do."-Mark Twain
But they do.
Md's are highly trained. They are experts. You are not. You're opinion in that field should never carry as much weight as theirs.
That Dr has MORE VALUE in the medical industry then you do.
Just like a bridge engineer has MORE VALUE in designing bridges then you do.
The idea of titles is to give information.
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I just wanted to say "thank you" for your sanity in this discussion. Who goes to an ER without an emergency, anyway?
Just because someone hasn't been through medical school doesn't mean that they couldn't have gone to medical school. Am I automatically less intelligent because I chose a career that isn't in the field of medicine, or that doesn't require a few extra years of school? It's not like the day I got my bachelor's degree I stopped learning new things. I learn more every day while working.
Nobody said non-Dr.s couldn't be smart as well. It doesn't even recognize intelligence per-se (although it's certainly a factor). It only recognizes achievement, specifically their degree. In other words, while smart people may not be all doctors, all doctors are smart people (it's a universal affirmative, but only one way).
It doesn't make them better, but it does make them a Dr. Regardless of your thoughts on the implied benefits of such a title or how they may carry it, they certainly did earn such a title. Similarly, just because you're as smart as or 'could have been' the president, you aren't the president and thus don't receive that title.
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If something/someone is bad, say it's bad. Fuck "balance".
Us nerds should care about truth more than "balance".
The problem is that judgments like "bad" are subjective - and providing just raw, verifiable information usually isn't much help to the audience, they need analysis as well so they can understand the bigger picture, the significance of that data... And analysis, too, varies depending on the source.
Bow-ties are cool.
If the engineers had a Doctorate, I would call them Dr. Smith.
In hospitals, clear designation is critical. So I call them Doctors, I Call nurses Nurse.
In this context, calling them Dr's is important.
The whole context here is medical. I know many Dr's., and when not in a work environment I call them by their first name, and they are fine with that.
"you already know who they are or can easily discover it (name badge?"
During an emergency? I've been in and watched many people in an emergency room and very often the person is to busy or in pain to or emotional involved to read a name badge. Or communicate above a single word. When you are having a hard time you don't want to say "I need Steve"
"If you want to treat a person as an equal, you use his/her name."
In a medical context, you are not the Doctors equal. You only think that because we live in an age where everyone thinks they are an expert.
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