British Computer Society Is Officially At Civil War

An anonymous reader writes "A vote of no confidence against the current board of directors has erupted in what is possibly the first nerd war, raging throughout the British Computer Society. More financial- and spreadsheet-related fixations and less computer science have made a few members cross; plus they don't like the new name 'The Chartered Institute of IT.' Here are more specific details on the extraordinary emergency general meeting on July 1, where members will vote to decide the fate of the board of directors."

Comments

Civil war?

[gzipped_tar]

At first I thought it was about British Computer Society declaring war against the UK government.

Meh. nothingtoseeheremovealong

Re:Civil war?

[Anonymous Coward]

This is not just a couple of nerds throwing a fit. It is an important professional organization and whose interest it should server. More information: here. The question is whether or not the organization should represent practicing IT professionals or management.

Re:Civil war?

[Captain Hook]

It wants to be an important professional organization, but I hardly know anyone who actually is a member or employers who ask for accredited training courses from them.

Re:Civil war?

[martin-boundary]

They're British. The war is implied, but they're being civil for appearances.

Pretty soon someone will call out Mornington Crescent :)

Re:Civil war?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm sorry, I don't have a clue what you are talking about!

-Samantha

Re:Civil war?

[Anonymous Coward]

Hmm .. I thought the same. Weird. Better clock this as an AC else I get compared to parent.

Re:Civil war?

[jimicus]

Seconded.

I was a member for a while, I cancelled the membership when I figured I was paying £80/year for the privilege of putting MBCS after my name and... er... that was about it.

The only way I can see it being important is if the computing industry ever reaches the point where there's a real benefit in being able to call yourself a "Chartered IT Professional" or somesuch (much as you can be a Chartered Engineer, Chartered Accountant or Chartered Surveyor and if you are, you're legally allowed to do some things you wouldn't otherwise be able to).

Re:Civil war?

[Captain Hook]

yeah, lets face it, with all the off-shoring that goes on, the idea of increasing your income by being better trained in any given field of IT has been shown to not work. Management don't want the best trained, they want the cheapest who can do the job.

Maybe Safety Critical applications should be restricted to 'Chartered' status employees, that would provide a reason for the BCS to exist and provide a benefit to being a member.

Until then, they are nothing more than a University Alumni type of organisation. Networking and conferences which although might be interesting aren't actually useful to the members.

Re:Civil war?

[Skater]

What is with people typing "server" instead of "serve" lately?

Re:Civil war?

[johanw]

Being civil because thei're Brittish? That must be the reason every mainland country in Europe associates "Brittish soccer fans" with the worst kind of hooligans?

Re:Civil war?

[Stooshie]

Oxford Street!

Re:Civil war?

[Lumpy]

It will never happen. Corporations DESPERATELY do not want IT to rise back to a "skilled" level where they have to pay premium wages for it again. They want IT to be the next Factory job where you get low wages and bad hours...

Requirements = higher pay rates. And companies dont want that. They want IT people they can hire for $10-$13 an hour USD and keep them cheap. They dont want to hire a guy that is highly skilled and educated for $23.00 an hour and higher... Because he is hard to replace, while the MCSE kid that will take a paltry $11.00 an hour and think he hit he jackpot is very easy to replace.

This is why you dont see companies demanding certifications and education levels... Because they will be forced to double pay rates. and they do not want to do that.

Re:Civil war?

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

That must be the reason every mainland country in Europe associates "Brittish soccer fans" with the worst kind of hooligans?

Sure, and the French go around with stripey T-shirts and wearing necklaces made of onion, while the Germans live on a diet of beer and 15 different kinds of sausage.

Or maybe decades-old stereotypes that apply to a tiny fraction of the population aren't very helpful.

Re:Civil war?

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually it's long past time that people who participate in computer science organizations take them back from the incredibly shortsighted resource allocation fanatical religionists (managers) who have misunderstood that resource allocation issues are tools not gods. The pursuit of computer science is it's own goal and own justification (as well as the secondary justification that it can help society).

Re:Civil war?

[MadKeithV]

Perhaps the server served a severe swerve with verve.

Re:Civil war?

[xaxa]

Oxford Street!

At first I wondered why you chose a street, rather than a station, but presumably we're using the 1923 "Queen's Admiralty" rules?

In that case, it's Chiswick High Road for me.

Re:Civil war?

[icebraining]

It may only apply to a tiny fraction of the population, but it's more than a stereotype - during the 2004 Europe Cup in Portugal there were much ore British people arrested than other countries, and in fact one of them is still fighting in courts to avoid extradition after he managed to return to England.

Re:Civil war?

[TapeCutter]

Aussie, degree qualified developer, 20yrs experience - $US23.00 an hour is nowhere near enough to get me out of bed.

Re:Civil war?

[mick232]

$23 an hour for a highly qualified IT expert? I don't know about the US, but where I live I have to pay about 6 times this rate just for a mechanic who repairs my car...

Re:Civil war?

[Anonymous Coward]

It may only apply to a tiny fraction of the population, but it's more than a stereotype - during the 2004 Europe Cup in Portugal there were much ore British people arrested than other countries, and in fact one of them is still fighting in courts to avoid extradition after he managed to return to England.

Yes, aren't stereotypes and prejudice wonderful concepts?

Re:Civil war?

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't see why computer scientists should care about the BCS. I have never seen 'BCS accredited degree' or 'BCS membership' a requirement for any job interview involving hardcore software eng/comp sci. Plus generally, if computer scientists and software engineers want accreditation they will become chartered engineers, which sounds much more impressive (but is equally meaningless). Simple fact is, BCS is a spreadsheet-skills society, and if its not that then it really has no purpose at all.

Re:Civil war?

[corbettw]

American, high-school dropout, 20 years experience - I'd laugh in someone's face if they offered me $23 an hour.

Re:Civil war?

[jonbryce]

They are really English football holigans, but that is another story altogether.

Re:Civil war?

[jonbryce]

That's not a station. The stations on Oxford Street are Marble Arch, Bond Street, Oxford Circus and Tottenham Court Road. All are on the Central Line. Bond Street is additionally on the Jubilee Line, Oxford Circus on the Bakerloo and Victoria Lines, and Tottenham Court Road on the Northern Line.

Re:Civil war?

[Lumpy]

Agreed. But corporations dont want you. They want dirt cheap mediocre labor.

It's why instead of hiring a seasoned developer they outsource it for 1/5th your cost to another place and then live with the sub-par result.

Re:Civil war?

[DrXym]

I can't think of any time in my professional career that being a member of the BCS would have made the slightest bit of difference to my job prospects. Or any occasion where I've been asked about membership or seen a job which had BCS membership as a precondition. Maybe somewhere like the civil service does bestow some kind of recognition on the qualification but for me it would have been a complete waste of time.

That's not to say that some kind of accreditation service for software engineers / IT professionals is a bad thing but the BCS isn't that service. Anyone with a hundred quid to spend annually and some years in the industry would qualify for an MBCS, so what's the point of accreditation at all?

Re:Civil war?

[Anonymous Coward]

Consider it your death bed then. Does anyone still use COBOL?

Re:Civil war?

[Malc]

Important? I haven't heard of them since I completed my Computer Science degree in 1996. They're relevant how?

Re:Civil war?

[TapeCutter]

Heh, I'm degree qualified AND a HS dropout. ;)

Re:Civil war?

[jimicus]

You're missing the point. The exact hourly rate isn't what the parent was getting at, the issue is that many businesses have listened to the old "Good, fast cheap - pick any two" adage and made their decision.

It's "Fast and cheap".

Re:Civil war?

[TapeCutter]

"Agreed. But corporations dont want you."

Two three month spells out of work in 20yrs says that regardless of what they want, they need skilled people.

Re:Civil war?

[Myopic]

I feel the same way.

But I bet we'd feel differently if we were hungry.

Re:Civil war?

[TapeCutter]

"Consider it your death bed then."

Unlikely (unless you meant it literally).

"Does anyone still use COBOL?"

Of course they do, and their maintenance staff shit gold bricks.

Re:Civil war?

[PeterBrett]

That's not t say that some kind of accreditation service for software engineers / IT professionals is a bad thing but the BCS isn't that service. Anyone with a hundred quid to spend annually and some years in the industry would qualify for an MBCS, so what's the point of accreditation at all?

Considered the IET?

Re:Civil war?

[flosofl]

I don't know what you're talking about, and I think you don't either. Those jobs are out there (the skilled, high-paying, corporate ones). Of course, you actually have to demonstrate those skills in the execution of the job.

Last summer the office I worked in was shut down, and I immediately walked into another job at a large, well-known corp with zero down time. And for *far* more than a measly $23/hr. without anything higher than an associates degree. Of course I've been in this biz for a long time (going on 20+yrs), so I have a lot of practical, *real-world* experience to draw on.

The jobs *are* there. You have to find them.

Re:Civil war?

[evilbessie]

You're allowed to use roads as long as you don't cross the north/south diagonal and are not in knip. Well at least in the International Standard Rules (1972).

Re:Civil war?

[Anonymous Coward]

I agreed with you up to the point where you said they wouldn't demand certs. Around here I see places that want insane (and often impossible) levels of certification and job experience ( 5 years C++, 5+ of Assembly, 6 years of Ruby on Rails, 10 years of Java, MCSE, CCNA, Network+). Oh, and they are willing to pay up to $9/hour for that. They obviously just copied and pasted the requirements from somewhere else and have no idea what any of means, but still. At least it tells me it's a place I don't want to work, so I guess it has some use.

Re:Civil war?

[MaxiCat_42]

That's because you're not British - Green Park!

Phil.

Re:Civil war?

[xaxa]

The diagonal? Only fools cross the diagonal -- I certainly don't want a repeat of what happened at last year's tournament in Tooting!

I'll use a cross-spearhead move, permitted since the other players are in a 6-3 formation, to move to Mudchute. It's daring to use the DLR this early in the game, but I think the cards are in my favour.

Re:Civil war?

[luis_a_espinal]

"Agreed. But corporations dont want you." Two three month spells out of work in 20yrs says that regardless of what they want, they need skilled people.

Exactly. My experience has been that most efforts to offshoring go south real bad, real fast. In fact all this offshoring to mediocre developers have proven a good opportunity for skilled developers (at least for those that have the acumen to play it well).

They end up being hired (or re-hired) as consultants and specialists to clean up the mess. One thing for certain is that not all IT development requires highly skilled labor (in particular if all they do is maintaining dynamic web pages.)

So what we are seeing is a consolidation of work into two categories: one that requires specialized skills, and one that does not. Neither category is going to decrease or increase. I've not seen any evidence to the contrary in all these years of off-shoring hoopla.

Re:Civil war?

[Stooshie]

Oops, my bad. However, I believe that through Stovold's law (1949?), I think I can skip that and say "Totteridge & Whetstone".

Re:Civil war?

[luis_a_espinal]

Agreed. But corporations dont want you. They want dirt cheap mediocre labor.

It's why instead of hiring a seasoned developer they outsource it for 1/5th your cost to another place and then live with the sub-par result.

They might not want to but they end up having to concede and hire a seasoned developer to clean up the mess... or be stuck with a poorly written system with operational costs running high up (eating up any savings they were expected from off-shoring.)

Doesn't matter what they want, when the rubber hits the road, they have no choice but to hire/re-hire skilled developers back. I've seen this happening in 15 years work. I've not seen any evidence to the contrary. It doesn't mean that right now there is no job shortage, but that's a function of the economy as a whole, and not of off-shoring.

In the last 10 years I've worked with 5 different companies were off-shoring played a big rule. There was a lot of job shuffling, but not the catastrophic layoffs people attribute to off-shoring. And every off-shored project going south is simply another opportunity to step up to the plate and clean it up (hopefully as a consultant with paid O/T.). If you are dumb and can't take advantage of it, then yeah, you are at risk of getting the pink slip, but that's on you, not off-shoring or IT as a whole.

The idea that companies can just get rid of skilled labor in favor off-shoring and getting away with it (and that such a thing becomes the status quo of the IT industry) is a fallacy.

Companies think they can save a buck by firing their skilled staff in favor of off-shoring for a 1/5th of a price? Let them. Let them do it and burn as they almost inevitably do. In the meantime, you re-invent yourself in some other slice of the IT sector, cleaning up the mess left by a previous badly managed off-shore effort (and make a good, steady and technically-rewarding living out of it.)

Re:Civil war?

[xaxa]

That's rather shortsighted. You leave yourself wide-open to a McMurdoch attack, without an escape route, and at the wrong end of the High Barnet branch.

I call Hoxton -- and I don't think I've seen this move before, the Livingstone Orbital (Phase II) rules only came into play last month.

Re:Civil war?

[Anonymous Coward]

It will never happen. Corporations DESPERATELY do not want IT to rise back to a "skilled" level where they have to pay premium wages for it again. They want IT to be the next Factory job where you get low wages and bad hours...

Requirements = higher pay rates. And companies dont want that. They want IT people they can hire for $10-$13 an hour USD and keep them cheap. They dont want to hire a guy that is highly skilled and educated for $23.00 an hour and higher... Because he is hard to replace, while the MCSE kid that will take a paltry $11.00 an hour and think he hit he jackpot is very easy to replace.

This is why you dont see companies demanding certifications and education levels... Because they will be forced to double pay rates. and they do not want to do that.

The sad thing is corporations also don't want software that's secure, reliable, or performant. I've gone back to paying my phone bill with paper checks because the online system times out before it even gets me decently logged on. Last month, in fact, I sent checks to no less than 3 different companies whose online payment sites were basically non-functional.

Of course, to cure that, they'd need to employ developers who had skills worth more than $10-$13 an hour.

Re:Civil war?

[Anonymous Coward]

This really hasn't changed. You can hire a helpdesk guy for 11 an hour, but if you want a seasoned enterprise level engineer/architect/admin you're going to pay skilled salary and benefits, and like it, if you want to get the guy/girl in the door and retain them.

Helpdesk type positions are the ones getting shafted with hourly, but good IT people should only stay in those positions for a year or two to get the experience for the next level anyway IMO. Those who stay at that level have no ambition.

Re:Civil war?

[ta bu shi da yu]

It might be a professional organization, but it's still an organization made up of nerds.

Funnily enough, this isn't the first time this happened. The first nerd war was when the X3 committee was trying to standardize on 7-bit ASCII. They chose a number of characters over a tortuous process involving about a dozen countries, managed to get agreement, and promptly found that the IBM Computer Group (also known as SHARE) were going to boycott the standard. This forced the X.3.2 working group to do a humiliating backdown and make changes which included, amongst other things, putting a break in the "|" character.

Sadly, I know this because I was trying to understand Unicode, got a little bit too interested and wrote a blog article on the precursors of that standard. Which I guess makes me a bigger nerd than anyone. But I swear I haven't fought anyone yet!

Re:Civil war?

[Gilmoure]

Man, would hate for my member to be servered.

Re:Civil war?

[TapeCutter]

"So what we are seeing is a consolidation of work into two categories: one that requires specialized skills, and one that does not. Neither category is going to decrease or increase. I've not seen any evidence to the contrary in all these years of off-shoring hoopla."

Exactly, I've been hearing about my imminent redundancy since the mid-nineties. Off-shoring means I do less bulk coding than 20yrs ago but the claim that qualified and/or experienced developers are no longer in demand is nonsense.

Re:Civil war?

[Stooshie]

You are right that move has never been pulled before and you are pushing the limits, but the Livingstone Orbital (Phase II) rules are new and it can be accepted.

I call Goodge Street. There, I've said it. Just don't judge me. :-)

Re:Civil war?

[Anonymous Coward]

last time I went to Germany I subsisted off of beer and sausage. I think it's the norm over there.

Re:Civil war?

[Anonymous Coward]

Then you need to walk into a best buy...

Look at the idiots that are the "Geek Squad"; those people in most companies and people's eyes are your equal.

You are compared to those morons and equated to them.

THAT is the problem.

I'm employed at a good job that values my skills and experience.... Problem is I deal with IT at a lot of my customers facilities and 9 times out of 10 I know more about networking than they do.

Come on, IP Subnets are NOT HARD and should be a basic thing for anyone doing IT. I usually end up having to tell them the IP settings or tell them that they need to enable the Port on the switch, etc... Rarely do I find the IT guy that when I say, "I need to install this system, what's the IP address you want me to give it?" do I get a answer or anything less than a blank stare.

Re:Civil war?

[Gilmoure]

Need some SCA armor?

Re:Civil war?

[mcvos]

That must be the reason every mainland country in Europe associates "Brittish soccer fans" with the worst kind of hooligans?

I have no experience with British football fans, but British tourists have a really bad reputation around here.

Sure, and the French go around with stripey T-shirts and wearing necklaces made of onion, while the Germans live on a diet of beer and 15 different kinds of sausage.

Or maybe decades-old stereotypes that apply to a tiny fraction of the population aren't very helpful.

I don't know where you get your French stereotypes (I've never seen any with striped shirt and onion necklace), but your stereotype of Germans is spot on.

I thought beer and sausages was mostly a Bavarian thing, but on a recent weekend to Trier, there was a square where people were preparing for some festival celebrating cultural diversity, having lots of foodstuffs from lots of different countries. But really, mostly beer and sausages.

Re:Civil war?

[Anonymous Coward]

Since that uses a Bendy bus, under the soon to be instated Johnson convention, it may be ruled out. Just a Warning. Ill happily let it pass today.
Tottenham Court Road

Re:Civil war?

[McNihil]

I don't know about that... I regularly see that the cost comes out about equal...

it takes a junior admin a lot longer than a senior one to do the same thing and with same quality. When things need to be payed it comes out about the same with the big difference being that with an admin that knows their stuff doing things a lot faster making the services looks smoother and well oiled.

Same goes for coders. Either you can have a junior diddly-doodling it for a week or two or a senior in an afternoon (YMMV regarding senior devs.)

The largest question is IF the senior dev wants to lower themselves to do trivial work... after a while they get apathetic if they live too long in the land of trivialities.

Re:Civil war?

[Anonymous Coward]

But they sure are amusing! I love the soccer hooligans in Euro Trip.

Re:Civil war?

[yuhong]

Part of it is because of cutting costs in order to maximizing shareholder value, which is fundamentally flawed in more than one way, as I said before.

Re:Civil war?

[blackraven14250]

Getting a higher percentage of brits arrested vs nationals of other countries doesn't disprove the stereotype of hooliganism, given it's a legitimate percentage.

Re:Civil war?

[fishexe]

What is with people typing "server" instead of "serve" lately?

Maybe it's one of these. What would you expect from a community of people who frequently have servers at the back of their mind?

Re:Civil war?

[fishexe]

They're British. The war is implied, but they're being civil for appearances.

Pretty soon someone will call out Mornington Crescent :)

The worst thing they have there is drive-by arguments.

Re:Civil war?

[frank_adrian314159]

They want IT to be the next Factory job where you get low wages and bad hours.

But no unions. Remember that part! Don't want the unions in there mucking up your "professionalism", do you? Face it... you are the blue-collar workers of the information age.

Re:Civil war?

[jeremypbennett]

You can become a Chartered Engineer through the BCS (I did 20 years ago). That's a qualification worth having, although these days it costs a lot more than £80/year. A lot of the argument is about the BCS moving to be an IT society, and losing interest in those members who are engineers.

Re:Civil war?

[mick232]

But still the parent was mentioning this rate in a way that was meant to make it sound high, as opposed to what he thinks is a low wage. This is what I am getting at.

Re:Civil war?

[Patch86]

Hooliganism is actually the end-stage of a very cunning government plan, whereby the entire British criminal element is imprisoned in foreign countries, at zero cost to the British tax payer.

Think of it as a modern version of the Australia plan.

Re:Civil war?

[ajlisows]

To some degree I do agree with you. There are a lot of pretty low paid, low skill people in IT. I consulted for a few years just to see different sized environments. I have spent the most time with manufacturing companies though, so these observations may not be valid in another industry.

It seems to me there is always at least one (usually more, depending on the size of the company) IT worker who is getting paid solid money. That person usually has some understanding of what the various departments in the company actually do. That person has some knowledge of the product the company is selling as well as an idea of internal processes. They are the ones that are valuable to the company because while there are thousands (millions) out there that can do generic IT work, they can do the IT work and understand how it needs to be done in the context of the company.

This trend is especially true in smaller companies it would seem. For that reason, I found a small place that had a lot of room for improvement as far as leveraging IT and went right to work understanding how the place functioned. The result? They threw more money at me than I really thought I deserve and let me set my own hours/work from home. They went through 4 or 5 terrible MCSE mill kids before I came along so they think I am something really special that they need to hold onto. To be fair, I do really good work for them.

So yeah, for a lot of IT workers we are starting to see the shift towards $11/hr cogs in the machine. There does seem to be opportunity for motivated and talented people to carve out their own little fiefdoms. Having a certification or whatever just isn't an automatic ticket to success anymore....and in all fairness it never SHOULD have been one.

Re:Civil war?

[thegarbz]

That I see as part of the problem. You shouldn't be able to get the qualification of this title by simply paying for the privilage. Am I correct that 80pounds / year is all you need and you can instantly put MBCS on your business card? The CPEng letters need to be justified by years of examples of professional conduct. Furthermore once you have it you need to show continued improvement and adaptation to IE Aust in order to justify why you should keep the titled of Chartered Professional.

Legit question: Is this the same for "Chartered IT Professionals" because if it's not it could be one of the critical reasons why it isn't taken seriously.

Re:Civil war?

[Cederic]

I'm a member, for the CITP entry on my CV.

It got me through HR for my last job, and in the technical interview when asked what I thought of it, the contemptuous expression on my face helped me get the job.

CITP needs to actually have intrinsic value (through demonstration of knowledge, skills and experience) before it will become a requirement for jobs.

Re:Civil war?

[Cederic]

There are a lot of pretty low paid, low skill people in IT.

There are a lot of low skill jobs in IT, and I have no problem in populating them with lower paid workers. Why pay higher than call centre rates for IT support staff that sit there answering the phones reading from scripts?

What annoys me are the vast number of pretty high paid, low skill people in IT.

Re:Civil war?

[Cederic]

I became CITP by writing them a letter saying nice things about myself. A couple of guys I worked with sent them letters saying nice things about me too. In response, they gave me CV fodder.

Since then, they have tightened the process - there's now an interview and/or test.

It lacks credibility for many reasons, but it's only in the last year or so that the BCS has finally realised that giving MBCS/CITP to anybody that's successfully stayed employed for 8 years isn't giving them any credibility at all.

Me, I waited until I could go straight to CITP before even joining - I resented the fact that people with a 2:2 in Computer Science from a crap university had a 2 year shorter qualification for MBCS than I did with a good BSc in an unaccredited degree from a Russell Group uni.

Re:Civil war?

[Cederic]

No, it highlights the biased nature of foreign police towards British fans, the aggressive way in which they attack our fans and the corruptness of the foreign courts.

Sorry, did I just stereotype based on anecdote?

Re:Civil war?

[Cederic]

Tell that to the residents of Manchester, who still haven't forgiven the Rangers fans.

Re:Civil war?

[jimicus]

That I see as part of the problem. You shouldn't be able to get the qualification of this title by simply paying for the privilage. Am I correct that 80pounds / year is all you need and you can instantly put MBCS on your business card?

Pretty much. You need an accredited degree (which is, AFAICT, most computing-related degrees from most universities) and/or a certain amount of experience for MBCS, but for the vast majority of IT professionals that's a non-issue.

Re:Civil war?

[Kittenman]

Seconded squared. Back when I was in the group, they struck me as a bunch of snobs, more concerned about the membership fees and status than anything to do with the profession.

Re:Civil war?

[jonbryce]

They are Rangers football hooligans. Other Scottish teams and the Scottish national team have a much better reputation.

Re:Civil war?

[Cederic]

Aye, but the Scottish football fans don't get the chance to attend many major tournaments.

See also: The Welsh.

Re:Civil war?

[Lunzo]

I thought he was referring to this Oxford St. Full of gay bars.

Re:Civil war?

[LifesRoadie]

Ditto, I was in the Australian equivalent, until I found that having MACCS after your name on your resume didn't mean squat to any prospective employer.

Re:Civil war?

[Anonymous Coward]

Look, I'm British myself. Personally, I find football one of the most boring, tedious ways possible to spend a few hours, but the fact is - England is not alone in having a vocal minority who use football as a reason to cause trouble.

*Every* European country has the same. Gangs of thugs who organise themselves around football. The football is incidental to what they do.

No, the reason Brits are arrested and charged more than other nationals is not because we have a bigger problem (though there *is* a problem), it's because the stereotype and prejudice says that only Brits are hooligans.

It's the same kind of thing that tells you that all French are cowards, smell of garlic, and don't shave. The same thing that tells you that all Germans are Nazi sausage eaters, that all Russians spend the day drinking Vodka, that all Americans are untravelled rednecks who are unaware of anywhere outside of the United States of America.

Yes, stereotypes become stereotypes for a reason, but to ignore the reality just because it doesn't fit in with your comfortable little world-view is particularly small-minded, don't you think? Actually, don't bother answering that one, based on your comment, I think I already know the answer.

Re:Civil war?

[xaxa]

I have no experience with British football fans, but British tourists have a really bad reputation around here.

My New Zealander friend corrected someone in Prague who complained about "those British drunks". She said they all had Australian and New Zealand accents. The Czech person said they were "British drunks" anyway, that was just the words used to describe groups of rowdy, drunk people.

In my (and her) experience, in the UK and elsewhere, AU/NZ/ZA tourists are worst for rowdy, drunken behaviour. (Though I wouldn't be surprised if UK people in NZ were worse than AU people in NZ, for example. They're further from home, etc.)

Re:Civil war?

[Anonymous Coward]

Seconded.

I was a member for a while, I cancelled the membership when I figured I was paying £80/year for the privilege of putting MBCS after my name and... er... that was about it.

The only way I can see it being important is if the computing industry ever reaches the point where there's a real benefit in being able to call yourself a "Chartered IT Professional" or somesuch (much as you can be a Chartered Engineer, Chartered Accountant or Chartered Surveyor and if you are, you're legally allowed to do some things you wouldn't otherwise be able to).

You're right - I'm cancelling my membership too - all seems like a load of tosh with so much expensively printed BCS stuff coming through the post these days. I'm not going to pay out my hard earned cash for that to be used for expensive voting forms to be printed and sent that then try and change the constitution to stop people complaining..... duuurrggghhhh!

Re:Civil war?

[vilms]

Mudchute (very good!) leaves me little room for manoeuvre. So I'll take the reverse shunt option and assume widened lines are in play too: St Johns Wood?

Re:Civil war?

[speardane]

well I'm a member - so far

whatever it is about:

neither party appears to be telling the truth about each other

neither party can explain it's point of view succinctly - and I am used to reading poor specs....

neither seems to be genuinely focussed on professionalising IT.

I recently joined PMI - if I could work out how to translate my experience and qualifications into a recognisable level - I think I'd drop BCS as well

I was asked to join this ..

[Idimmu Xul]

When I finished my BSc and MSc we were given application forms and things to join the BCS but I didn't see the point. What benefits does it have?

Re:I was asked to join this ..

[beelsebob]

Basically, you can attain levels of experience that you can then use to demonstrate to potential new employers that you have experience, and skills used in industry. Unfortunately, it's all very management biased, and anti actually doing any computing biased. For example, IIRC, the various programming skills start at level 1 qualifications max out at level 6, while management skills start at level 5 and max out at level 10.

Re:I was asked to join this ..

[malkavian]

Under the "old way", the benefits were lots of lectures that you got to go to on various subjects, plus the chance to network with other professionals. Useful stuff really; some of those lectures were great.

Under the 'new way', they've altered the way the "chartered" membership works; as it was in the old days, you could become a chartered IT professional without having to prove anything other than you'd stayed in the IT sector for 5 years. Now there are a series of exams to pass and frequent re-evaluation to maintain it (more in line with chartered engineer status from the engineering professions).

Really, I think a lot of the new changes are to make the BCS more relevant to what commerce wants to know, rather than being a comp sci enclave. The thrust has changed direction, though this isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Re:I was asked to join this ..

[orbitalia]

you get some letters after your name...

Re:I was asked to join this ..

[oiron]

Quite a few, it seems...

Rajan Anketell DIC CEng CSci FBCS CITP FIBC CMC FORS MIET FRSA

That's quite a collection you have there, Mr. Anketell...

Re:I was asked to join this ..

[Securityemo]

And what exactly does this crude grading system represent? If it's across-the-board for IT personell, the test would either be toothless or unfeasible due to sheer scope.

Re:I was asked to join this ..

[beelsebob]

It represents bragging rights when applying for new jobs –a CV with "I have BCS level 9 qualifications" on it helps at some companies.

Re:I was asked to join this ..

[Arancaytar]

... so you have to double-class to manager to join?

(All this stuff about skill levels sounds funny. :P )

Re:I was asked to join this ..

[PeterBrett]

• CEng: Chartered Engineer (awarded by a chartered engineering body, probably the IET in this case)
• CSci: Chartered Scientist (awarded by a chartered scientific body; it isn't clear which)
• FBCS: Fellow of the British Computing Society
• CITP: Chartered IT Professional (awarded by the BCS)
• CMC: Certified Management Consultant (haven't heard of this one before)
• FORS: ????
• MIET: Member of the Institute of Engineering and Technology (so am I!)
• FRSA: Fellow of the Royal Society for the encouragement of Arts, Manufactures and Commerce.

Re:I was asked to join this ..

[AHuxley]

FORS could be Fellow of the Operational Research Society

Re:I was asked to join this ..

[Anonymous Coward]

You mean the same way saying you're a level 70 Mage in world of warcraft is?

I've been in IT in the UK for 20 years, I've never joined the BCS, never seen the point of it, and I've never been asked if I was a member by any interviewer or job agency.

I got the impression it's more like a social club for people looking for other techies to go for a drink with.

Re:I was asked to join this ..

[Anonymous Coward]

NO the max is 80 right now. It will change to 85 later this year.

Re:I was asked to join this ..

[AtomicJake]

Basically, you can attain levels of experience that you can then use to demonstrate to potential new employers that you have experience, and skills used in industry.

Cool. Like getting modded up at /. Can I trade in my Karma?

Re:I was asked to join this ..

[digitig]

• CEng: Chartered Engineer (awarded by a chartered engineering body, probably the IET in this case)

More likely awarded by the BCS, since he's a Fellow of the BCS and only a Member of the IET. It's impossible to tell, though. If he were a Fellow of both or a Member of both then he should put the awarding membership first, but I think the rule about listing Fellowships before Memberships overrides that rule.

Re:I was asked to join this ..

[jimicus]

You mean the same way saying you're a level 70 Mage in world of warcraft is?

That's a pretty good description.

I got the impression it's more like a social club for people looking for other techies to go for a drink with.

It's not even very good for that - I was a member for a while and the locations they chose for meetings were invariably out-of-town hotels and conference centres you'd need to drive to.

Re:I was asked to join this ..

[Another, completely]

the various programming skills start at level 1 qualifications max out at level 6, while management skills start at level 5 and max out at level 10.

Call me an out-of-place mathematician, but what's the difference between a scale from 5 - 10 and a scale from 1 - 6? They both have six levels. The fact that they re-use known symbols (sequential Arabic digits) to name those levels is just convenience. Numbering management with a minimum qualification level of 5 is consistent with standard assumptions about managers (that they don't know what a baseline is), so maybe the numbering system is really a subtle joke?

Re:I was asked to join this ..

[Anonymous Coward]

You can't trade Karma, but I understand that some levels of the organization accept British Airways mileage plan points. You might even find one or two folks that would accept XBox Live MS dollars.

Re:I was asked to join this ..

[GIL_Dude]

I agree with that, but I would point out that they probably try to represent this to folks outside their organization as being one scale instead of separate programmer and manager scale. Which would tend to show a manager at level 7 as more experienced than a programmer at level 6.

Re:I was asked to join this ..

[beelsebob]

Nothing particularly, except that most people *aren't* mathematicians. Most people see "ah, I see you're a level 6 manager, you must be as experienced, and wonderful as this level 6 programmer", despite the programmer having to have 20 years experience and done crazy amount of testing, and the manager basically being a basic line manager.

Re:I was asked to join this ..

[IBBoard]

The difference is that Level 1 is "newbie with no experience and easy to achieve" where as level 5 is "experienced professional requiring a reasonable amount of evidence".

I had to use the levels when I did an "Industrial Experience" year and found that even moderate programming experience shot you up to about level 3 without much effort. The problem was that I was supposed to show development, but level 4 required more specialist things that not everyone does.

Re:I was asked to join this ..

[xaxa]

Xaxa MEng ACGI

More effort needed?

Re:I was asked to join this ..

[NekSnappa]

BCS? What does college football have to do with IT?

Re:I was asked to join this ..

[MadJo]

Well, it takes a lot of grinding to reach management level 6.

Re:I was asked to join this ..

[AGMW]

Oh yes, the "FORS" is something about having relatives (the "R" as I recall) also in the industry, actually it's an abbreviation of the original FORS Kin from the early 80's.

Re:I was asked to join this ..

[Filthio]

They should have one that goes to 11.

Re:I was asked to join this ..

[Anonymous Coward]

you get some letters after your name...

Indeed, and when you become a Senior member of the CHartered Institute of IT it will look great:

Mr. Anonymous SCHIIT Professional

Re:I was asked to join this ..

[Anonymous Coward]

Well alright, and who do I have to blow to get the 4th of July off?

Re:I was asked to join this ..

[Stooshie]

Perhaps:

Xaxa GA BOR

:-)

Re:I was asked to join this ..

[blackraven14250]

Uncle Sam.

Re:I was asked to join this ..

[fishexe]

And what exactly does this crude grading system represent?

It allows you to sell your persona to wealthy Americans who don't want to take the time to level-farm themselves. Oh wait, I'm thinking of WoW levels...

Re:I was asked to join this ..

[fishexe]

... so you have to double-class to manager to join?

I would only do that if it also allowed me to dual-wield.

Re:I was asked to join this ..

[Cederic]

Really, I think a lot of the new changes are to make the BCS more relevant to what commerce wants to know, rather than being a comp sci enclave. The thrust has changed direction, though this isn't necessarily a bad thing.

I concur - I hated the old bias towards arcane and irrelevant computer science degrees, while penalising people that were far more capable at IT but had a degree in something else (or even no degree).

The whole thing continues to be fascinatingly public sector biased though, which isn't an area in which I really want to work (even disregarding the impending gutting it's overdue).

Re:I was asked to join this ..

[Anonymous Coward]

How many experience points do I need to accumulate to go up each level?

I already wrote a program to kill the dragon with my mouse ... how many experience points do I get for that?

"First nerd war"?

[Gaxx]

Not the first and not the last but maybe it will prop up companies selling rubber-band launchers....

Re:"First nerd war"?

[Daniel Dvorkin]

Is there ever a time when nerds aren't at war?

Re:"First nerd war"?

[Anonymous Coward]

When they're taking their revenge.

Re:"First nerd war"?

[forkazoo]

Is there ever a time when nerds aren't at war?

There will be. Just as soon as the damned EMACS is burned off the face of this world, we can finally have peace. Until then, the corpses will just keep getting stacked up.

Re:"First nerd war"?

[Midnight's Shadow]

Is there ever a time when nerds aren't at war?

There will be. Just as soon as the damned EMACS is burned off the face of this world, we can finally have peace. Until then, the corpses will just keep getting stacked up.

Funny, I was thinking the same thing about VI...

Re:"First nerd war"?

[Anonymous Coward]

...quick everyone...KILL HIM !!!!!

Re:"First nerd war"?

[Goffee71]

No, this is a British argument, no killing needed. Just knock over his teacup and steal his cake.

Re:"First nerd war"?

[ErroneousBee]

Steady on old boy!

Re:"First nerd war"?

[chrysrobyn]

Funny, I was thinking the same thing about VI

VI is power. Do the math.

Seriously. Voltage times current ...

Re:"First nerd war"?

[Improv]

Brothers, we should struggle together against the common enemy, Microsoft Word!

Re:"First nerd war"?

[Anonymous Coward]

I need more glass - Break More Windows

Re:"First nerd war"?

[Phrogman]

No, this is a British argument, no killing needed. Just knock over his teacup and steal his gateau.

Fixed that for you

Re:"First nerd war"?

[fishexe]

No, this is a British argument, no killing needed. Just knock over his teacup and steal his cake.

That, and someone might get called a stupid git.

Re:"First nerd war"?

[Goffee71]

Well, if that's how you splurge in your hoity-toity offices, with peacocks on the lawn no doubt! But I can't envisage anything more exotic than a slab of Victoria Sponge or, if its a really special day - new delivery of paper clips perhaps - then maybe some marble cake.

love, The JamRolyPoly People's Front

Re:"First nerd war"?

[Cederic]

'bloody idiot' is a lot more likely.
'daft plonker' is unlikely, but recognisable.

the BCS...

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not surprised they're having internal issues, despite some of my uni tutors being so pro-BCS you'd think they were on commission, none of them have been able to give me a single valid reason why I should actually pay the joining fee, what it would actually gain for me.

When things are not simply a charity, I'm sure your supposed to receive something in return for an outlay.

Brilliant!

[Anonymous Coward]

I had to meet with a bunch of BCS reps when my course was re-accredited, and the experience matches up with what the summary says. They were obsessing over whether the mathematics of CS were too difficult and all kinds of bogus concerns

I think their problem is that higher level courses are (inherently) not an "everyone's invited" thing. Because not everyone will succeed. And that's how it should be. They're difficult if they're done right, because they include a lot hard-line theory behind the soft 'Let's do Java' exterior. The BCS just can't seem to accept this though. They want to pervert the courses to make them easier, basically

More people on courses = more power to them? Or maybe they get extra money for getting a certain % of the population onto courses? I have no idea of their motives but whatever they are, they're going about them the wrong way

Re:Brilliant!

[Anonymous Coward]

you dont need calculus for normal everyday business programming. if you feel you need to be elite, go join the guys in the pride parade.

Re:Brilliant!

[CrashandDie]

I did a quick course after the equivalent of high school. Mostly because I was bored, and my buddies were going that route.

I'm one of those guys who's not particularly bad at math, but just sucks at the way it's being taught in school. Anyway, this is a course mostly directed towards students who completed electronics and electrotechnics degrees. Those degrees are aimed at people who have a "scientific" mind, but didn't score well enough in math and science in the previous years. Something for everyone, right?

The first day of that degree, our math teacher informed us that most of us were going to fail math. Not because we were bad or stupid, not because we'd be smoking drugs and getting wasted every weekend, but quite simply because the stuff he'd be required by law to teach us was way out of our league, and that he expected almost half the class to be dumped by the end of the first semester.

What he aimed for, was not for most of us to ace, he would be trying to get us to not fail too badly. Out of 24 students who started the course, 10 dropped out by the end of the first year, partly because they didn't like CS, but mostly because they were completely drowned in math and physics. Out of 10 students who got to the final exams in the end, 2 or 3 passed Math.

The problem is that (in France), what the teacher has to teach the students is decided by some fat guys in suits who haven't seen nor remember what a student looks like for the past 20-30 years. They are stuck, getting insane requests from the industry, about 10 years too late, and trying to work out what might help. By the time the new stuff reaches the teachers and students, 15 or 20 years have passed. What you end up with are continuously deprecated degrees, where students come out, filled with hope and joy based on the lies their schools and teachers told them for the past few years, and are hit in the face during their first job interviews (if they ever get one) where they realise that nothing they've learned will be useful.

Now, I got my degree, and most of friends did as well (only 1 didn't get it, as I recall, so 10%), but seriously, what's the point of giving uber-hard math, where kids just drop off and don't give a shit anymore, and doesn't stop them from getting their diploma in the end anyway? I went to maybe 3 math classes in my last year, and still got my diploma with flying colours. It's not about making it easier, it's about making it useful.

Re:Brilliant!

[digitig]

You don't need a CS degree for normal everyday business programming either.

Re:Brilliant!

[Spad]

It's the misunderstanding de jour, at least in the UK, that the ideal situation is for everyone to be getting top marks in every exam they take - mostly due to bloody school league tables and the "everyone must go to uni" mentality. This does of course defeat the entire point of exams, which is to differentiate people based on their level of ability in a given field, to the extent that some universities are finding that *every* applicant for certain courses have 5 A's at A-Level and so deciding who to take is often a crap shoot. The (previous) government's brilliant solution to this issue? Add an A* grade at A-Level and carry on as normal.

Re:Brilliant!

[Anonymous Coward]

I have a good quality, first class CS degree from a good quality, BCS-accredited course. I didn't scrape by, either.

At a BCS-associated employment post later I found was not eligible for automatic BCS accreditation from my degree because I failed one module in my first year (a teamwork-based module that was negligible in the overall scoring of my degree).

The BCS, struggling for members at that time, was inflexible, and their only solution was for me to return to university to retake a first year module.

I laughed and thanked them for the suggestion.

Re:Brilliant!

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe not, but you need various advanced mathematical skills to do supply-chain optimisation. You might also find image analysis to be a popular subject in the real world, and getting your algorithm to complete in reasonable time will often need some mathematical background. Some people really do use mathematics professionally, and many of those people think of themselves as computer scientists. If they want to improve those skills, it doesn't make them elitist to hope that their professional society (by computer people for computer people) should have some course recommendations.

Re:Brilliant!

[amw]

The (previous) government's brilliant solution to this issue? Add an A* grade at A-Level and carry on as normal.

Much as I enjoy kicking them now they're down, to be fair the main reason for that was the range of marks an 'A' grade covered. 'B' could, in theory, cover 60 to 69%, whilst 'A' covered 70% all the way up to 100%. 'A*' simply made it possible to differentiate between the increasingly common (for other, more fundamental reasons) 'A'-grades.

The danger is that in the future, people will forget exacrly when A*s were introduced, and judge 'old' A grades as being inferior.

Re:Brilliant!

[jayegirl]

what's the point of giving uber-hard math, where kids just drop off and don't give a shit anymore, and doesn't stop them from getting their diploma in the end anyway? I went to maybe 3 math classes in my last year, and still got my diploma with flying colours. It's not about making it easier, it's about making it useful.

Perhaps some of the point is, for once in the cess-pool that is the modern, utility and mediocrity obsessed tertiary education system, to attempt to provide broad-ranging bases of abstract knowledge to the students who actually want to learn, and are capable of doing so. That way we'll at least get some people who can work at the coal face of knowledge creation as opposed to just another batch of clueless, money-grabbing code monkeys?

The sort of useful you're talking about is concerned with places where all the interesting, hard problems have already been solved. Sounds dull as dishwater if you've got a brain in your head.

Re:Brilliant!

[Anonymous Coward]

'A' covered 70% all the way up to 100%.

I don't think the range for an 'A' was quite as wide as that. At least when I did A-Levels (about 7 years ago) an 'A' grade was 80% and above. I think the new 'A*' grade is for those scoring 90% and above.

Re:Brilliant!

[mike2R]

The (previous) government's brilliant solution to this issue? Add an A* grade at A-Level and carry on as normal.

I'm all for bashing Labour, but to be fair I got some A* GCSEs when John Major was PM.

Re:Brilliant!

[Zaiff Urgulbunger]

Any idea why they don't just use percentages instead rather than tying the percentage to a letter?

Re:Brilliant!

[luis_a_espinal]

you dont need calculus for normal everyday business programming. if you feel you need to be elite, go join the guys in the pride parade.

That depends on what you mean by "everyday business programming". To be honest, if you narrow down "business programming" to writing forms and putting a webbie face to a database table, well, you don't even need a CS degree.

And you don't need do perform integration or differentiation in what we could refer as 'hard-core' business programming, you do need to understand limits and rate of change for discrete mathematics, theory of computation and algorithm analysis. You can' t understand the concepts behind fault tolerance, scalability and high performance (which you need if you work with high volume transaction systems, the heart of biznesses) if you don't understand these.

The very concept of rate of change is crucial in many aspects of life. You can't analyze business trends or write complex systems without knowing that. And you can't get a firm grasp of that without calculus.

Re:Brilliant!

[DrgnDancer]

I think the biggest problem with the way programming is taught in school is that everything is "Computer Science".

"The sort of useful you're talking about is concerned with places where all the interesting, hard problems have already been solved."

There's a place for that. The fact of the matter is that business needs a class of reasonably skilled code monkeys who can take someone else's algorithm, or design and write code around it. Business also needs the software engineers who can design that algorithm or design. The world also needs the guys who understands computers in and out and can push the envelope of what we think computers can do. Right now all three of those guys go to college and get computer science degrees. Which essentially try to teach them to be that last and most elite guy.

This is changing a bit. You're starting to see some level of specialization in degrees and associates degrees meant to provide low level grunt programmers and IT people, but you still see a lot of "Company looking for entry level IT monkey. CS degree required!" ads out there. The simple fact of the matter is that we're not all going to pushing the boundaries of Computer Science with every project we work on.

The vast majority of us will be solving problems that have already been solved most of the time. A lot of people are happy with that. Personally I'm glad I studied "real" computer science. I like working on new and challenging problems and situations (one of the reasons I'm not terribly happy with my current job), but I can also see where people who don't want to do cutting edge research professionally also don't see why they have to take Calculus 4 to become junior Java devs at Megacorp.

Re:Brilliant!

[ciderVisor]

Sounds dull as dishwater if you've got a brain in your head.

The expression is "dull as ditchwater".

Re:Brilliant!

[petermgreen]

GCSEs have had A* for years, A levels have only recently aquired them.

Re:Brilliant!

[petermgreen]

Indeed A is 80% and above

A* is more complicated and varies by subject (it's NOT just another higher threshold on the overall mark for the subject). IIRC in maths it's an average of 90% on C3 and C4 but i'm not positive on that.

Re:Brilliant!

[ConceptJunkie]

I think you've got a good point. I graduated with a degree in CS from Virginia Tech in 1987. Not a whole lot of what I was taught was specifically and directly relevant to any job I'd had subsequent to that. In other words, my college experience was more of an education than training, and that's what it should be. The classes from which I felt I got the most value were seldom CS classes. That is not to the fault the CS department which I thought was pretty good, just that there is, or should be, more to a university degree than job training, otherwise it's just a glorified vo-tech school and should cost a third as much.

For instance, my first job was as a C programmer, when I'd used Pascal almost exclusively prior to that. The company that hired me was looking for entry-level C developers, so they were not looking for prior experience (and with the salary they offered, their expectations were appropriate). They offered a fairly simple test for us to take along with the interview. I don't recall all of the test, but one problem was to write a simple string handling function in C. I think it was to write a strcpy( ) function. Sounds pretty brain dead, huh? Well, apparently not...

I found out later that out of a group of 15 people that took the test, 2 of us aced it. Apparently, none of the rest did even marginally well. The company's attitude about the selection process also was an important factor in my decision to accept their employment offer and turn down another for more money.

There are two important realizations to this little anecdote. First, it confirmed that my CS degree served me well because I came out knowing how to program, and was able to get a job (and be successful at it) writing a language I had not heretofore used. In fact, I did so again in later years with both C++ and Tcl. Nowadays, languages come and (often) go like pop singers. If you can't adapt, you won't have a future in software development.

My other big realization, lo those many years ago, is that someone can come out with a Computer Science (or similar) degree and not be able to figure out how to implement strcpy( ). Although I suspected the case all along, I'd never seen such stark evidence.

Re:Brilliant!

[ninjacheeseburger]

The problem is also the fact that lots of university don't differentiate between the a-levels you take so someone with a C in physics can be competing against someone with an A in art when applying for a computer science course.

Re:Brilliant!

[CrashandDie]

the modern [...] education system [...] attempt[s] to provide broad-ranging bases of abstract knowledge to the students who actually want to learn, and are capable of doing so.

(Editing mine)

Sure. And there is are degrees for that. Math degrees. Physics degrees. Teaching abstract stuff is useless unless you explain, at some point, how those theories can be applied to real world situations.

What you end up with are stupid problems where all the variables are given (or easily findable) in the context of the problem, and absolutely NO "education" of how to find the variables, nor anything else. What you end up with are kids (or young adults) who can probably work a Laplace transform with their eyes closed (90% of the transforms we had to work with were Z-transforms, in other words, ideal scenarios you will NEVER come across when measuring crap), but would never realise that they can use a Laplace transform (and the inverse to calculate the phase delay of a [insert something here].

Current schools (and more specifically, current math and physics, at least in France), do not ask students to formulate questions, or the problems they have to solve themselves. Everything is spoon-fed. The "application of math processes to the world around us" is a sham, a complete utopia that very few teachers have been able to achieve, and sadly I've never met a single one.

Dan Meyer summarises this exceptionally well.

• Lack of initiative: After finishing a lecture, immediately 5 hands go up; students asking to re-explain the whole thing at their desk.
• Lack of perseverance
• Lack of retention: Teachers have to re-explain concepts every 3 months or so. Once they've remembered the formula and aced 10 exercises, they think they store it, but really, the same memory spot gets used for whatever the teacher will explain next.
• Aversion to word problems: Students are usually unable to explain how the problem is setup. They can't paraphrase, because they don't understand.
• Eagerness to formula: Students just want to take their TI-5billion, store a small app that will spit out the result.

The problem is that when students get fed bite-sized problems, that are solvable within 10 minutes (so that the teacher can do a handful in an hour), you completely kill the student's ability to think for longer than 10 minutes. And we do this again, and again, and again. What's even worse, the studies I was talking about in my previous post (GP), we received a "cheat sheet" that had all the formulas for the duration of the degree. Want to know what's even worse? The damn cheat sheet was provided during the exam. Don't believe me? Here is a copy of the exam paper I had a few years ago. Pages 8 'till 14 are standard formulas to help us. That's 6 pages in a 14 page exam.

How do expect people to use the hardcore math they're being taught[1] in real life applications when you *never* ask them to find the variables themselves, *never* ask them "what would be interesting to know about this [insert object]?".

[1]: I shall put aside for once the fact that is utterly ridiculous to try and teach the inner workings of Fourier and Laplace to guys who just got a degree in a branch because they failed math and physics. You don't need Fourier, Laplace and whatever we were taught in order to write java sockets. PS: I loved maths when I lived in Belgium. I participated in what is roughly the equivalent of spelling bee but for maths. Competition math, on a national level. When I moved to France, I started hating it with a passion. Coincidence? Racist maths? I think not. Stupid education system where theoretical knowledge trumps real-life application, yes sir.

Re:Brilliant!

[mike2R]

Ah, thank-you

Re:Brilliant!

[pjt33]

It gives a nice shorthand for universities to offer conditional places. For example, and simplifying slightly, I had one offer of AAB (as in, get two As and a B to get this place); another of BBB (less prestigious university); etc. I'm not saying this is the reason, but it's a reason why the letter system has value.

Re:Brilliant!

[Cederic]

that last and most elite guy.

I have every bit as much respect for the hardware designers and software engineers as the computer scientists.

Anybody that doesn't hasn't experienced the unfeasibly complex social dynamics of an overdue business project in which they're trying to prevent the company making an expensive mistake. Trust me, to deal with that well requires a vast range of skills, with mere programming a trivial distraction.

Re:Brilliant!

[Patch86]

Student's in the UK are in an awful catch-22 at the moment. If they do well, people complain that their exams were worthless, and that they've only achieved what they have because everything's so much easier than "back in the day". If they get a mediocre (what might once have been considered "normal") grade, they're made to feel like failures, as A*s are supposedly so common.

It's lose-lose.

Re:Brilliant!

[Anonymous Coward]

What's even worse, the studies I was talking about in my previous post (GP), we received a "cheat sheet" that had all the formulas for the duration of the degree. Want to know what's even worse? The damn cheat sheet was provided during the exam. Don't believe me?

Umm... What is wrong with this. It completely would jive with the last bullet point. If a comprehensive formula sheet is provided, then a nontrivial exam cannot focus on questions that simply require regurgitating a formula.

Re:Brilliant!

[jayegirl]

Oh? Please show working.

Re:Brilliant!

[Anonymous Coward]

The questions that children ask, are often the issues facing us in relation to our lives as adults. So let's widen field on which children should ask questions (on history, politics, economy), we come to a point where questions of the children may become uncomfortable. We than should have the courage to face these issues and not run away. Otherwise all the talk about better education is superfluous, because we lie to and deceive our children only to maintain order to protect ourselves.

Nerd war, huh?

[Darkon]

Choose your weapons!

Re:Nerd war, huh?

[polle404]

Nerd rage, like no other...

Re:Nerd war, huh?

[AndGodSed]

No Klingon warsword?

Re:Nerd war, huh?

[biryokumaru]

Is that anything like a bat'leth?

Nothing beats a good CV (resume)

[niks42]

Having membership of the BCS gives you nothing when it comes to getting a job. A CV glowing with past achievements; actually doing things, delivering things and demonstrating that you have the cuts and weals from real-world engagements is worth much more than being a fellow of a society. I'd have to explain to potential employers who the BCS are and what they do.

Re:Nothing beats a good CV (resume)

[yakumo.unr]

Aside from when a friend of mine was flat out told he got the job because from a bunch of otherwise pretty much identical candidates, he was a member of the BCS, and none of the others were.

Other than that I've been struggling to see why I should join myself.

Re:Nothing beats a good CV (resume)

[digitig]

And I wouldn't have my job if I were not a member of the BCS. I think the English speaking world has a problem with the distinction between technicians and engineers. The BCS is an engineering institution, and is relevant to jobs in IT engineering, but most IT jobs are technician jobs.

Re:Nothing beats a good CV (resume)

[niks42]

An exception that proves the rule ;-)

Having applied for over 200 jobs in the last 18 months, been turned down for the other guy because they had slightly more experience of Government Security standards, or were slightly younger, or had more sexual appeal to the (non-technical) Technical Director, landed a great job with a CV that just demonstrated experience, and the cuts and bruises of encounters with hostile customers, a willingness to be flexible, and the wisdom to know when not to be. Cut out all of the technical stuff, except the statement that ! was a pro-Unix and Open Source, and anti-MS Bigot.

Result!

Re:Nothing beats a good CV (resume)

[augustw]

Personally, as a compiler writer, I've found my higher degrees in CS much more useful than the BCS membership which I had, but gave up as a useless expense about 15 years ago. I've certainly never, in 25 years, employed, recommended, or preferred, someone on the grounds that they are MBCS, or CITP. Both are about as useful indicators of ability and knowledge as CCNE or MSCE.

Ironically, MBCS would probably be more "useful" to me now that I've given up CS, and am retraining as a lawyer!

Re:Nothing beats a good CV (resume)

[Anonymous Coward]

Holy fuck, dude! If your resume read anything like your post, age and attraction had nothing to do with being passed over...

Re:Nothing beats a good CV (resume)

[TapeCutter]

I have a fair bit of experience interviewing programmers. I tailor my own CV to please the HR grunt who ticks boxes so that they will pass it on to the manager who will interview me. Mostly this just means mentioning all the acronyms that were in the job advertisment.

Re:Nothing beats a good CV (resume)

[Anonymous Coward]

Amen brother!

Give that man an OBE! ;)

Re:Nothing beats a good CV (resume)

[niks42]

Thanks for that, Mr Ballmer.

Of course I exaggerate to make a point, but the point is well made; when you have had the opportunity like I have to grow, and pursue ones career while the IT industry took shape, a membership of a society is not overly important. Early in my career I would have gone for the IEEE, or the IERE anyhow as I started as an electronics engineer. How much relevance would that have now, though my skills at end-end troubleshooting are doubtless almost entirely due to that upbringing.

Re:Nothing beats a good CV (resume)

[niks42]

What about architects? Are they engineers?

Re:Nothing beats a good CV (resume)

[Cederic]

I've found the skills, techniques, approaches and cynicism learned as a software engineer invaluable in my subsequent architecture career.

Re:Nothing beats a good CV (resume)

[niks42]

I totally agree. I was mithering about the arbitrary division of the world into 'Technicians' and 'Engineers', wondering where architects (seemingly like me, from the job title) come from.

Well then.....

[csueiras]

KAPLAAAR!!!!!!

Slow..

[Anonymous Coward]

I think the no confidence voters have been a bit slow to get their message out, the BCS has already sent out shiny information packs explaining why you should vote for them (I abstained due to this information shortage). I voted no about scrapping the rule of 50 members for a vote of no confidence though, seems like a nice democratic safeguard to me.

Definitely the BCS has been dumbed down successively over the past 16 years I have been a full member, I suspect that this is because they basically want more members so lower the entry bar, in order to get the membership funds in their coffers. I definitely did not like the CITP membership level, it is the British COMPUTER socienty, that should cover anything in the field of computing and not just information technology.

Anyway, I think a rocket up the ass like this is good for any organisation so we will see what comes out of it.

Re:Slow..

[MichaelSmith]

I recall that many years ago the Australian Computer Society ditched the IT mob, so that you had to be a computer scientist to get in. I was a "member" when I was a student, because it was free for me.

Re:Slow..

[digitig]

I think the no confidence voters have been a bit slow to get their message out, the BCS has already sent out shiny information packs explaining why you should vote for them (I abstained due to this information shortage). I voted no about scrapping the rule of 50 members for a vote of no confidence though, seems like a nice democratic safeguard to me.

Yes, presumably the BCS (ie, our) resources are being used to put out the material opposing the original motion, whereas those who called the EGM probably don't have the resources for a publicity campaign. The key issue seems to be one of financial transparency, with suspicion of irregularities.

Re:Slow..

[IBBoard]

Definitely the BCS has been dumbed down successively over the past 16 years I have been a full member, I suspect that this is because they basically want more members so lower the entry bar, in order to get the membership funds in their coffers. I definitely did not like the CITP membership level, it is the British COMPUTER socienty, that should cover anything in the field of computing and not just information technology.

The odd thing is that I agree with the sentiment, but not with the votes. If you read the monthly magazine then you end up skimming it - management, management, buzzword, management buzzword, etc - and it does feel more Pointy Haired Boss than Alice and Dilbert. I can't say I've gained much from the BCS (I had to join when I was a student to do Industrial Experience, then my company paid for it) but there definitely seems to be a focus on the management aspects rather than the techy aspects.

That said, I think there probably was still a need to invest in change for the future, especially when politicians are screwing it up with things like the Digital Economy Bill.

Re:Slow..

[TapeCutter]

Heh, I was a free student memeber of the ACM in 1990, couldn't see any value in it after I graduated.

Oh come on

[antifoidulus]

It's not a real nerd war until someone gets hit in the head with a plastic light saber!

Re:Oh come on

[L4t3r4lu5]

What? I thought it would have been with a LIGHTNING BOLT! LIGHTNING BOLT! LIGHTNING BOLT!

Either that, or a Nerf projectile.

Re:Oh come on

[TapeCutter]

Looks like a real nerd war to me, light saber skirmishes have been reported in Bristol, it was sheer luck that nobody lost an eye.

I think

[maroberts]

only the CEng (Chartered Engineer) and FBCS (Fellow of the BCS) are the fault of the British Computing Society.

I'm not sure what a DIC is (in a non-sexual way, of course)

Re:I think

[AHuxley]

DIC could be Diploma of Imperial College

Re:I think

[hedwards]

You know, that alone would be worth 80 quid a year.

Re:I think

[AGMW]

The "CITP" is another one you pick up for free with the BCS membership now.

I can see why

[Anonymous Coward]

After all.. computer science has some semblance of respectability, whereas IT is *applied* computing to the whim of neurotic, dimwit office workers.

Nobody, even IT types, likes the term IT. People who actually make computers work instead of scripting an install or two? Even less so!

Could you imagine an electronic engineering guild being renamed to 'the electricians club'?

The BCS is an irrelevance

[Viol8]

Its a society run by and for people who cut their teeth on 1950s and 60s mainframes. Nothing wrong with that, but people seem to assume it has any relevance or authority today. It doesn't. No one I know in IT belongs to it or is even the slightest bit interested in it. Its the computing equivalent of a historic car club with similar types of people as members.

Re:The BCS is an irrelevance

[Tim C]

I belong to it, but only because my employer pays the membership fee. For that, I get a monthly glossy magazine that I sometimes flick through, invitations to lectures, events, etc that I never attend, and the ability to put "MBCS" after my name - not that I ever would. (I don't put my real qualifications after my name, why would I put that there?)

Re:The BCS is an irrelevance

[Rogerborg]

I've always viewed it as a cabal of ancient gummy git-wizards, with a three foot beard and lifetime membership of the Campaign for Real Ale being pre-requisites for membership.

As far as I can see it, the current Grand High Git-Wizard rescued the BCS from total irrelevance, and is actually in danger of making it an organisation with a purpose. This angers the other git-wizards, who want to get back to the real business of the BCS: finally concluding the debate over whether the PDP-11 was a retrograde step from the PDP-8.

Re:The BCS is an irrelevance

[Viol8]

Spot on. You'd get +1 funny from me if I had any points :)

Re:The BCS is an irrelevance

[niks42]

Hah! you're so right .. like the MG Owners Club trying to tell Toyota how to design the next-gen Prius .. oh, wait ..

Re:The BCS is an irrelevance

[Alioth]

Is it? I'm not a member (it seems too much "IT and management" and not enough "computing") but I do go to their talks reasonably often (and indeed have been a speaker). Most of the talks are about things that are of interest for today and the future. I've not seen any evidence at least in our local group of "historic car club" type attitude.

As I said, the reason I'm not a member is that it has an overwhelmingly business IT focus, and I'm not really interested in joining an organization focused on business matters, but it's still worth it for me to go to their overwhelmingly business related IT talks because it's given me useful practical information in that respect.

Re:The BCS is an irrelevance

[biryokumaru]

For that, I get a monthly glossy magazine that I sometimes flick through, invitations to lectures, events, etc that I never attend...

Okay, I get it now, it's just like IEEE!

Re:The BCS is an irrelevance

[elrous0]

a cabal of ancient gummy git-wizards

That would actually make for a pretty accurate description of most legislative bodies in general.

Bad choice of words

[houghi]

Officially at war would mean a deceleration of war. Even though the intend to use deadly weapons is not needed, it is to be expected. I doubt that that is the case, even without reading the articles.

After reading them, it is clear that is is a bad use of the word war. In the linked article one talks about "a row" and the other talks about "concerns". Now I understand that the British are very good and underplaying, but calling a war a row or a concerns is even to cool for them.

Even the fake war on drugs, terrorism and piracy is more of a war then this.

Sure it is a headline catcher. But if people are not willing to read it if it isn't, you should not make it louder, you should consider not posting it at all. This is not (yet) Foxnews.

Re:Bad choice of words

[Anonymous Coward]

A vote of no confidence is a pretty nasty offensive weapon.

Re:Bad choice of words

[SimonInOz]

>> Officially at war would mean a deceleration of war.

Slowing down of war - I like the sound of that.

Re:Bad choice of words

[just fiddling around]

I think "civil war" is a fitting description.

Re:Bad choice of words

[fishexe]

>> Officially at war would mean a deceleration of war.

Slowing down of war - I like the sound of that.

Unfortunately, in the US only Congress can decelerate war.

Re:Bad choice of words

[fishexe]

Officially at war would mean a deceleration of war. Even though the intend to use deadly weapons is not needed, it is to be expected....

Perhaps you're not familiar with figurative language...

Re:Bad choice of words

[Anonymous Coward]

more of a war then this

Bad choice of words? Pot, meet kettle.

You get experience at uni and in jobs

[Viol8]

"Basically, you can attain levels of experience that you can then use to demonstrate to potential new employers that you have experience,"

If people already have a computer science degree how are some noddy certificates from a self important club going to help? Potential new employers will be a lot more impressed if you have a first or 5 years doing hard core development at a blue chip.

The first Nerd War?!?!

[Anonymous Coward]

Clearly the first and greatest of nerd wars was Vi vs Emacs.

Nerds.. respect your history.

They're an elitist waste of space

[Anonymous Coward]

When they introduced the Chartered status they automatically upgraded every member. Then the set the boundaries at a certain number of years experience, plus qualifications. Then they changed it to a framework whereby you had to have managed a certain number of people, and had a certain size budget. Then they changed it so that you had to have complete strategic accountability in a significant organisation. They're completely alienating a significant proportion of their members, who are technical professionals, not guys in boardrooms.

Re:BCS

[Anonymous Coward]

Wake me up when FBS declares a civil war against the BCS and forces a playoff system to crown the college football national champion.

Oh wait. Wrong BCS. /stupidamerican

Typical bureaucratic garbage

[DNS-and-BIND]

Here's how it goes: Somebody has a great idea to form an association of some sort. Then, the idea of the actual association gets lost. Why? Narcissistic empathy-lacking morons are attracted to it because they can control the apparatus instead of deliver actual services. Then, the people who started the service get angry and fight back, and we get the situation we have here. Usually, the good guys lose and are forced to start their own splinter group. The new group never gets as big as the original because the original group has all the clout and relationships.

I know a local "chamber of commerce" type organization. They spend all their time in committee meetings, electing general secretaries, and deciding who gets what title than actually promoting local business. Their association is a joke - it's obvious to everyone but them. To themselves, they're king ding-a-ling and they strut around like they're important people.

Re:Typical bureaucratic garbage

[arethuza]

I seem to remember at least one society at University (I think it was the Economics Society or similar) that only existed so that the members could take turns holding various posts so they could put it on their CVs. I don't think they ever did anything other than hold meetings to decide who was going to do what for the next month.

Bad Summary

[dcollins]

"More financial- and spreadsheet-related fixations and less computer science have made a few members cross"

I've read all the links provided, I don't see anyone referring to this whatsoever. All of the discussion centers on whether BCS remains a member-driven professional group and charity, or a top-down corporately-structured business. To quote the second link in its big-font and boldface summary:

Among the active members of the BCS, there are many dissatisfactions with how the Society is run; but when it comes specifically to why this EGM has been called, it all boils down to the issues of governance and probity. [http://bcsreform.wikispaces.com/Message+re+EGM+call]

Re:Bad Summary

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah but he's not wrong. Look at their quiz to see if you fit the bill for chartered IT professional. It doesn't matter how many highly succesful software projects you've run for example, if you weren't directly in charge of a budget or managing a set number of people or whatever you're not eligible.

The BCS is nothing to do with computing, and everything to do with those IT middle manager types who need something to add to their list of acronyms on their CV in an attempt to cover up their lack of real, actual, achievements.

If you compare it to an organisation like the IMA you can see the stark difference, the IMA focusses on those who actually practice math rather than those who manage those who practice math but don't actually do any themselves.

Re:Bad Summary

[Anonymous Coward]

The signatories don't like how the money is being spent, don't like the new name and don't like how the society is being drawn away from its original purpose.

BCS officially support software patents

[Anonymous Coward]

Enough said really - they support software engineering as a business model, not as a professional discipline - hence they do not reflect my interests as a software engineer. That's why I laughed and refused to pay the 150ukp annual fee.

British icon

[MichaelSmith]

Maybe we should have an icon for articles about Australia as well. I am not sure what though. I don't think a picture of a Sydney bus would convey the right impression. So whats our icon? A can of beer? A kangaroo diving head first through a windscreen?

Re:British icon

[Ash-Fox]

Maybe we should have an icon for articles about Australia as well. I am not sure what though. I don't think a picture of a Sydney bus would convey the right impression. So whats our icon? A can of beer? A kangaroo diving head first through a windscreen?

The icon should be a cap, symbolizing how Australia is well known for it's bandwidth caps.

Re:British icon

[RandomFactor]

A digger.

Re:British icon

[Lunzo]

There's usually a picture of Crocodile Dundee's hat next to the Aussie articles.

I had the similar concerns with the I.E.T.

[Anonymous Coward]

The final straw was when I realized that they were hand in glove with Microsoft (they call MS a "Business Partner"). I resigned.

As an outsider, the "war" seams lost

[jabjoe]

I'm a drop out. 10 years ago I dropped out of a VR design course to do programming for a living. I have always had mixed feelings that I should have done a CS degree. I say mixed because I have met such varied results. I have met some that have been taught exactly what I wanted to know and had to find for myself, but I have also met hordes that I don't feel know what they should. They can't program anything but C#/Java and I wouldn't trust them to with what they know about compilers, registers, stack and heap, operating systems, etc. Which is basically, NOTHING. Seams to depend what Uni. The trouble seams to be the pressure is to get bums on seats, and the way of doing that is to dumb down. Which seams to be a general trend. But as I said, I'm not unbiased, and could be deluding myself to make myself feel better. ;-)

Re:As an outsider, the "war" seams lost

[ledow]

Most uni courses are an absolute waste of time. Anything real/interesting is saved until the MSc / PhD years, at least in the UK. By then, if you *don't* know your stuff, you're dead in the water anyway. Learning is 99.9% to do with user motivation... if someone doesn't want to learn, no course in the world can teach them. Other people, though, will absorb knowledge like it's going out of fashion and be far ahead of the class before they even start.

I have a CS degree from a good London university. I can honestly remember two courses that were worth my time (in my opinion) and providing me with useful CS knowledge... Graph Theory and Coding Theory - both technically taught by the mathematics department. The Java programming courses? I never even bothered to attend the lectures or classes, I just emailed my coursework in from home - I'd never programmed in Java before, but I'd been programming in one language or another since I was 8. Some of the MSc students didn't know simple things, though, and ended up dropping out. The Windows/Linux dual-boot computers baffled most people and I was the only one who ever used the Linux side for any non-coursework tasks (in fact, I used it almost exclusively). Some of the people on the pure-CS courses had never programmed a single line of code. Some of them couldn't do binary arithmetic. Others were clueless as to how to even operate a computer for everyday purposes.

That was 10 years ago, when people *didn't* generally have their own machines (or if they did, it probably wasn't a laptop), had to take paper-notes in lectures, etc. - I don't suppose it's got any better since. I used to sit and help final-year and MSc students with their Java projects because I could spot optimisations and problems in their code from a million miles away. To me, it was just something I did for them while I was browsing the web and waiting for a page to load - to them, it was their final-year projects that had taken them all year to get to a compilable / prototype stage.

The only thing a degree proves is that you had the dedication to learn things you didn't necessarily need to learn. It's a recognition of X number of years of hard work, not a certificate of a particular achievement. When you get into the workplace, even the "relevant" skills crop up only once or twice a year, if that, and aren't anything that you couldn't research online nowadays. My degree got me my first job, every subsequent job, and a well-paying, stable career doing what I want (which isn't the usual rat-race) - without it I wouldn't have been considered. But relevant to real-world computing of any kind? Nope. The people who *KNOW* their subject are in a vastly disjoint set to those who *STUDIED* their subject or even those who *WORK* in their subject for a career.

If you weren't taking things apart and programming before you left school (in the UK, that means age 16/18), the chances that you *KNOW* your subject are greatly reduced. A good degree proves nothing about capability except dedication and ability to learn.

Re:As an outsider, the "war" seams lost

[Anonymous Coward]

I bet you think you have a giant penis too.

Seriously, that is one of the most egotistical posts I've ever seen on here. Which is saying something.

Sheesh.

Re:As an outsider, the "war" seams lost

[Anonymous Coward]

I found it interesting. It's in agreement with my observations of CS courses at one university. And I'm curious to know what it took others to become successful in life.

Re:As an outsider, the "war" seams lost

[ledow]

Just a condemnation of CS-degrees, really. The last (and main) coursework for the programming course I did for that degree had an exercise that was to "implement the KMP algorithm in Java". For reference, this is the KMP algorithm: http://www-igm.univ-mlv.fr/~lecroq/string/node8.html and that page does it in about 30 lines of C code, most of which is boilerplate, comments and whitespace. Even with the analysis and figuring out the big-O notation of such things, that's *NOT* degree-level stuff, not in my opinion. That's the sort of thing you could get some students of about 13-14 to do quite easily, even without prior technical skills - I work in schools and I've seen better stuff from 15-year-olds. Hell, my classmates in secondary school were doing more interesting and challenging things than that five years previously when they were being taught BASIC. Give any programmer an adult and they could teach them how to complete that (and understand how they did it), the most difficult exercise given on that course, in the space of an afternoon even if they couldn't program at all before.

The toughest course on my degree was Compilers and Interpreters, which was 90% dealing with parsing trees and the like and which was only "bad" because the lecturer did the old trick of making the first few lectures seem tough in order to get rid of the wastrels. Seriously, there was nothing on the computing side that would tax someone who could already program, or had a decent grasp of what would have been considered "O-Level" logic / mathematics 20 years ago. It was embarrassing. It wasn't that they focused too much on the theory, or not enough on the actual practice, they just dumbed it all down in order to raise pass rates. An MSc project that I helped someone out with in their final year of their MSc was implementing the Minimax algorithm on a game of draughts (again, in Java) - I kid you not. This is the sort of thing that I was reading in Personal Computer World when I was 15, and many, many years before that. I have a set of INPUT magazines from the 80's aimed at teaching children programming on the ZX Spectrum, BBC Micro, etc. and it has more interesting and complex algorithms in it.

Go have a look at the courses offered for any modern computing degree - I just looked up my old uni and found that you could do a project for the entirety of your last *two* years of your MSci (and pretty much the *ONLY* thing that you do) by choosing to use things like "XML and Structured Information" or "Entrepreneurship in Information Technology". It's all complete bollocks that has nothing to do with computer *SCIENCE*. It's just Yet-Another-IT-Qualification now, nothing to do with degrees, computing skills, picking out the good students, and nothing whatsoever to do with computer science at all - most of the students will never stray from their Windows desktops with Eclipse installed (with the help of the uni IT department) for the entirety of their degree.

How many of the people on those courses went on to a "real" (i.e. non-management) IT job? Almost zero I should think. I wouldn't trust them to install Windows, let alone program the damn thing or analyse real-life systems and protocols. Degree courses do not demonstrate knowledge/skill in the subject any more (if they ever did), they just demonstrate that you can follow instructions for three/four/more years.

Re:As an outsider, the "war" seams lost

[luis_a_espinal]

I bet you think you have a giant penis too.

Seriously, that is one of the most egotistical posts I've ever seen on here. Which is saying something.

Sheesh.

And why is that? To be honest, this matches what has been reported as a general observation of how things are. It certainly matches what I've seen in the real world. There is evidence to suggest that you need to collect a certain amount of hours taking things apart and programming to make your CS degree worthwhile. And you don't get that just by cruising through the CS curriculum.

Anecdotal as it might be, my observation has been that decent developers spent a large amount of time programming and taking things apart, time that was *outside* what they did for their courses. Either in the form of internships, working at a computer lab, or simply programming, programming and more programming for fun (sometimes to the detriment of their own homework), that's what makes good developers.

There is no reason for me to see a CS graduate who doesn't understand pointers (I've seen this), even if it is for a Java programming shop. There is a strong relation between knowing the intricacies of pointers and explicit resource management and writing memory-efficient, scalable Java systems. This is just a general observation, one of many. I've also met people who were darned good at development and never actually took a CS course... but they have been playing with hardware since they were teens.

I don't find that post egotistical at all; it reflects reality as we have seen it in the trenches. And I actually found it to be quite objective. If you find it egotistical, that has more to do with *you* than with anything else.

Not everyone is cut out for engineering in general, and software in particular. Testament of this is the mass of crappy, high-schoolish work done by people with 4-year degrees, people who would have never made it past their junior year 15-20 years ago, and who would have been better served at a different type of profession.

Re:As an outsider, the "war" seams lost

[Anonymous Coward]

Balls.

You could pick an element from pretty much any degree course in any subject and argue that 13-14 year olds could do it. They could. They wouldn't necessarily have a full comprehension of it, but they could do it. That doesn't make the degree worthless. It's moronic to think it does.

And the content of any course is not going to be as useful to someone who has obsessively immersed themself in the subject before taking it as it is to someone who hasn't. If you'd spent your childhood studying mathematics, reading Mathematics Magazine, working on proofs in your spare time, etc., etc. you'd have found you already knew a lot of the content of a mathematics degree too. That would not make the mathematics degree course worthy of condemnation.

Yes, there are bad CS degree courses. But again, you can apply the same principles you do above to virtually any degree. I mean I helped a friend with parts of their Modern Languages degree, and, later, parts of their MA. I have a basic qualification in French and German and that's it. That doesn't mean their degree was easy, or that I'm some sort of genius, just that specific elements of virtually any degree-level subject can be broken down to a level such that the understanding required can be portrayed as not being of degree-level. It's a trivial exercise and applying it as you do shows a deep lack of understanding of the content and purpose of a degree course.

Meh, I could go on, but basically you seem to have a largely unrealistic idea of what a degree level course should provide, seemingly based on the idea that it should be tailored to your level and useful to you personally. Because you are, presumably, representative of what everyone should be and the universe should revolve around you. But you're not and it doesn't. Get over it.

Re:As an outsider, the "war" seams lost

[Anonymous Coward]

Seriously? You don't find this:

I used to sit and help final-year and MSc students with their Java projects because I could spot optimisations and problems in their code from a million miles away. To me, it was just something I did for them while I was browsing the web and waiting for a page to load - to them, it was their final-year projects that had taken them all year to get to a compilable / prototype stage.

reeks of arrogance?

He's claiming that as an undergrad he helped final-year and MSc students with their projects while waiting for a page to load. Come on. Even if he was on a terrible CS course populated entirely by morons, that would still be some feat.

It comes across not as an honest indictment of CS course standards, but as bragging from an arrogant egotist, pure and simple.

The first nerd war?

[dangitman]

A vote of no confidence against the current board of directors has erupted in what is possibly the first nerd war,

Seriously? Nerds have been fighting for centuries, and you think this is the first?

What about the British Boffins (including Alan Turing) versus the Nazi Boffins (some of whom would later work on NASA missions). What about Tesla versus Edison? Plato versus Aristotle? Star Trek nerds versus Star Wars nerds? Amiga nerds versus Atari ST nerds?

Re:The first nerd war?

[Anonymous Coward]

Nazi's were nerds? W D F?

Re:The first nerd war?

[Skater]

I was thinking of the old Fidonet message boards that had three topics banned in the Star Trek forum, because they always devolved into flame wars:

1. Kirk vs. Picard
2. Religion in Star Trek
3. O'Brien's rank

Re:The first nerd war?

[domatic]

Churchill called it the Wizard War.

http://www.vectorsite.net/ttwiz.html

The Nazis weren't nerds but they employed some of the best nerds. Germany had a history of being very very good at chemistry and mechanical engineering at the time WWII started. So Germany had an early start and funding and developing rockets and jet engines. As the war started to go badly, Hitler had high hopes for "Wonder Weapons" that would allow Germany to reverse their losses in a flash of uber wizardry so things like the V2 rocket, the ME-262 jet fighter, and the Sturmgewehr assault rifle were designed, produced, and fielded on a forced march. On the drawing boards and prototype stages were things like the "America Bomber" and flying wing aircraft. I sometimes wonder if Germany might have held out a bit longer if they concentrated more on proven weapons systems and didn't spend so much resources on "Wonder Weapons"; an ME-262 is a heller of an aircraft but what it took to develop it probably would have put 10 ME-109s in the air.

Germany was also good but not the best at electronic warfare and codebreaking. But the British put considerable effort into those areas. Everyone here knows about Alan Turing and his team of codebreakers. The British also had an anti-submarine radar that operated at a wavelength the Germans considered impractical to achieve. The Germans thought the British were detecting U-boats by excessive EM emissions and put a lot of useless countermeasures into place for that. Late in the war, they shot down an antisub bomber and were shocked when they got into the radar. There was much much more of this sort of thing.

Other than the bomb, the US did some of this too. We figured out how to build miniaturized tube electronics that could survive being fired out of a gun a high percentage of a time. Late in the war, we had radio proximity fused anti-aircraft shells and field artillery shells. The AA shells were deadly and were estimated by Vannevar Bush to be 7 times more effective than the old 5-inch AA shells.. The electronics only survived and operated correctly a relatively low percentage of the time but even so were vastly superior to shells that detonated on contact or at specific altitudes. The field artillery version was equally deadly as they exploded at pre-set heights; Patton loved "those funny shells" by all accounts.

Re:The first nerd war?

[domatic]

Those are boring and done to death. I always wanted to see one over "Who is the biggest dog? Commander Riker or Captain Kirk?"

For my part, it is Riker by a long shot. He got into a really plain looking hermaphrodite and was even addicted and used to push a mind altering "game" on the rest of crew by another notch on his bedpost. Kirk just chased green skinned women around.

Re:The first nerd war?

[VendettaMF]

There were no Atari ST nerds. It was a games machine with a keyboard duct-taped on at the last moment.

Re:The first nerd war?

[jalefkowit]

I sometimes wonder if Germany might have held out a bit longer if they concentrated more on proven weapons systems and didn't spend so much resources on "Wonder Weapons"; an ME-262 is a heller of an aircraft but what it took to develop it probably would have put 10 ME-109s in the air.

Probably not, since by the time it mattered (1944-1945) the Luftwaffe's biggest shortage was in experienced aircrews, not aircraft. The drain of six years of war had resulted in training standards being dropped dramatically just to get recruits into cockpits as fast as possible to replace casualties. By the time the Me-262 reached service they could barely scrape up enough good pilots to use it, which resulted in numerous cases of Allied airmen shooting down 262s even though they were flying inferior propeller-driven aircraft.

Even if the Germans had chosen to use the resources put into the Me-262 to produce quantities of Me-109/Fw-190s or the like, they would never have been able to fill those cockpits. So in the end it probably didn't matter.

Re:The first nerd war?

[fishexe]

A vote of no confidence against the current board of directors has erupted in what is possibly the first nerd war,

Seriously? Nerds have been fighting for centuries, and you think this is the first?

Perhaps the OP thinks this is severe enough that the nerds may literally take up weapons this time.

Re:The first nerd war?

[fishexe]

I was thinking of the old Fidonet message boards that had three topics banned in the Star Trek forum, because they always devolved into flame wars:

1. Kirk vs. Picard
2. Religion in Star Trek
3. O'Brien's rank

O'Brien's rank was "Chief Petty Officer", shortened to Chief when used as a title, which ranks below all commissioned officers, and was made clear in the conversation between Worf's father and Chief O'Brien in the second episode of the fourth TNG season.

How can you make an argument out of that? The question is totally settled! Man, talk about people with no life.

Re:The first nerd war?

[dangitman]

There were no Atari ST nerds. It was a games machine with a keyboard duct-taped on at the last moment.

You are right. I stand corrected.

Re: Student furniture

[Anonymous Coward]

I shared a student flat in Manchester with a bunch of fellow geeks in the early 80s.
We used the piles of unread BCS glossy newspapers as furniture.
(Too shiny for bathroom use.)

Zomg it's the end of the world!

[wye43]

It's World War III, no wait ...
It's Civil War, no wait ...
It's only in UK, no wait ...
It's only a society, no wait ...
It's only some nerds, no wait ...


It's nothing.

"cross"

[hammarlund]

You just don't see the word "cross" used very much anymore. It's just the perfect word sometimes.

Re:"cross"

[fishexe]

Roger, you're pushin' my buttons!

The first nerdwar?

[Anonymous Coward]

The author clearly has never been in a university....

Chartered Institute of IT?

[zephvark]

Oh, ChIT. I can see how that might be a problem.

From what I know of Australia your icon

[SmallFurryCreature]

From what I know of Australia your icon should be a passport. Because every single last one of you must be somewhere else by all the aussies I meet around the world. If you sit in the middle seat of an aircraft, one person next to you will be from Australia/New Zealand. Same thing.

Runs for it.

Still I wonder. What makes you such globe trotters. Want to see the world or just want to get the hell out of that place?

Re:From what I know of Australia your icon

[MichaelSmith]

What makes you such globe trotters. Want to see the world or just want to get the hell out of that place?

My parents did it in 1975 when I was 9 years old. We bought a Commer van outside Australia House in London and drove it around the continent for a year. We had a great time. We almost blew ourselves up a couple of times and very nearly fell into a gorge in Yugoslavia. I missed grade four and to this day I can't do long division.

Part of the reason may be that while there are plenty of things to see in Australia you often have to travel a long way to see them, so international travel is not such a big deal. Christchurch is closer to Melbourne than Brisbane for example.

Many of us have relatives and friends overseas so this gives us reasons to travel, and somebody to fall back on if it doesn't work out. I travel for work quite a bit and one thing I notice when I return to Melbourne is that our airport has an "end of the line" feeling about it. Its where they turn the planes around and send them back to asia. Its a nice place to live but you know you are in a different place when you leave.

And for me now, my wife was born in Malaysia and her family have a house and car there. If we want a holiday it makes sense to make use of them. The funny thing is that I haven't been to Brisbane since I was five years old.

Re:From what I know of Australia your icon

[Anonymous Coward]

Still I wonder. What makes you such globe trotters. Want to see the world or just want to get the hell out of that place?

With respect to NZ, we love travelling. Our forebears travelled to get here, and we still love to travel and see the world.

Uh?

[Anonymous Coward]

No serious company is replacing trained and experienced IT professionals with "MCSE" kids. None.

Seriously, no one. Companies know better, specially the ones that may lose millions *per hour* if they don't have a qualified, experienced professional tending to their machines during crisis.

I am sorry to hear that $US rates are so low, here in the UK I am getting the equivalent of $75/hour, I don't think I would need to go much lower even during the recession.

Re:Uh?

[Khyber]

"No serious company is replacing trained and experienced IT professionals with "MCSE" kids. None."

You're telling a huge lie. I can name SEVERAL IT places that hire cheap MSCE kids. Hell, the kids don't even need an MSCE.

I'm looking at you, Solectron and Flextronics.

Libel is libel

[Anonymous Coward]

no merely a bad choice of words, its defamation

Re:Libel is libel

[Anonymous Coward]

Story submitted by an anonymous writer? Not so scary when it's anonymous.

ACM deja vu...

[tomhath]

This reminds me of the infighting at the Association for Computing Machinery back in the 1980's. Up until then it was very relevant to programmers' interests; but then a group of people who were more focused on social issues took over and diverted much of the budget and journal space to their own agenda. Membership plummeted and the ACM never really recovered the status it had in the 60's and 70's.

Re:ACM deja vu...

[Smallpond]

ACM never regained because the 60's and 70's were the early days when the most interesting computer science was being invented. Now the stuff they publish is only of interest to the author. I see an interesting title once in a while, but I don't remember the last time the article lived up to it.

Re:ACM deja vu...

[lamber45]

I'll agree that there's a certain amount of fluff, especially in CACM (which was redisigned to look like mid-1990s Byte a couple years ago --- I don't consider that a good sign --- Byte went out of print soon after), but ACM also still has a lot of active technical journals and SIGs. The cost of basic membership seems reasonable. Based on this incident, I'd say it's much more relevant than BCS; but I don't live in Britain.

Now, IEEE's basic membership really is just expensive fluff, and doesn't even include access to the digital library; I still haven't renewed this year, probably won't. I won't say I didn't get anything out of my membership last year, but over the years I've been a member I received a lot less value that I had hoped. One item of note: many of the items I see in the e-mail newsletter IEEE Spectrum Tech Insider have already been discussed on Slashdot by the time I get it.

The FIRST Nerd War????

[morgauxo]

Emacs Forever and Apple Sucks!! Friends don't let friends use IE!! No, this is not really a troll, just pointing out why this is not the FIRST nerd war.

official is the new literally

[Anonymous Coward]

They over/misused literally to the point it has no impact (we now you don't mean literally) so they need a new word to use.

They would never actually use virtually or figuratively.. correct but no impact (may as well say "x event sort of but doesn't really leads to y consequence").

So they've hijacked officially and will use that instead of a correct word until it has no meaning...

Yay for headline/blurb writers.

Word IT is my filter

[Anonymous Coward]

Any organization that has the word IT in it just means it is probably whole bunch of MCSE's impersonating CS/EE engineers. Actually you can probably use the word Technology as filter.

The inside story..

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm one of the 52 ‘nerd rebels’ who supported the call for the EGM.

Basically we're angry that the BCS is turning into a (global) profit making accreditations company instead of focusing on supporting its British members and standing for professionalism.

I personally also feel that the BCS is delivering very bad value for money to its members.

I very much doubt that the EGM will be successful in overthrowing the leadership especially because:
- The current leadership has biased the voting questions
- Sent out shiny pretty leaflets
- Most members don’t really care as long as they get their postnominals.
- The rebel faction isn’t particularly well organised.

The current leadership is particularly cut throat I wouldn’t be surprised if I’m thrown out or blacklisted for supporting the EGM.
 

Re:The inside story..

[Anonymous Coward]

- Most members don’t really care as long as they get their postnominals.
- The rebel faction isn’t particularly well organised. The current leadership is particularly cut throat ..

Welp there it is. Most members only want accreditations, you have an accreditation company. The management superstructure is there to maintain the illusive organizational respectability. Professionalism is worth what exactly to outsiders, other than symbolically?

Emergency Meeting July 1

[GuruBuckaroo]

Man, that sucks, having to have an emergency meeting on a holiday weekend.

...

Re:Emergency Meeting July 1

[PeterBrett]

Man, that sucks, having to have an emergency meeting on a holiday weekend.

Firstly, July 1st is a Thursday. Secondly, the weekend of the 4th July is not a holiday weekend in the UK, which is where the British Computer Society is based.

Could be worse

[petes_PoV]

how about:
Associated
Register of
Software
Engineers
Having
Obligatory
Levels of
Education in
Science

or is that already taken? although that might be a better description

The IT Crowd

[KPexEA]

http://www.youtube.com/user/ITCrowdChannel

0.1% of the membership = vote of no confidence?

[Anonymous Coward]

Posted anonymously as a simple google of my Slashdot username would turn up my webpage which would tell you who I am, and what I do for the society (and I'd rather speak cowardly but frankly here).

I'm a chartered member of the BCS (MBCS CITP - I will admit to having been grandfathered into the CITP as an "old" non-chartered but full MBCS when they changed the rules) and undertake some voluntary work for them (arguably I can be seen as "part of the problem" as it is for one of their "products"), trying to make things better from the inside. This post should be taken as my own personal views and not those of the Society etc. etc. yadda, yadda. I also abstained on all the motions, as - whilst I don't agree with the key motions raised by the petitioners - I do see some things happening within the Society that I am not keen on.

Yesterday I received the paperwork from the society putting both sides of the argument across. I don't understand quite why I should be written to twice on the matter (once of these was with a glossy cardboard leaflet despite the paperwork being about 4 pages of A4 or so - why was is in the interest of the Society?).

Whilst I'm not too happy with the upper echelons of the Society deciding the scope of their rebranding and the new focuses without decent consultation from the membership (and I was insulted to discover that the Society was calling itself the Chartered Institute for IT via a third party rather than having been informed by the society itself), I'm still of the opinion that the Society urgently needs to modernise itself.

There's too many fossils in the membership opposed to change of any kind (this isn't purely an aspect of age, it's one of outlook), and it is (perhaps rightly) perceived by non-members as being irrelevant in the modern world (and that's to those who even know what it is - typically there's more of the education sector involved in the Society than people from the Real World(tm)). Granted, some in the society view the Society as becoming too commercial, or putting the money-making areas of the Society ahead of other aspects - and they might have a point. I'm also not quite sure why the Society caters so much for middle management when it could easily cater for a much broader range of people in the Industry.

I do find it a bit bizarre that a vote of no confidence has been called by a petition of 52 members out of a professional membership of around 50,000, though.

Finally, with regards to course accreditation - what a strange beast that is! I have a bachelor's degree in what is now called Computer Science (but wasn't back in the day) from an institution listed in the top 4 in the Times Higher Education's 2008 world listings (for what that was worth), and was informed when I applied that - because it was non-BCS-accredited - it was worth the same as any other degree (that has a fair bit of IT in the curriculum) from any old institution; i.e. the equivalent of 3 years experience towards the 10 years that was required at the time to qualify. Getting a third class honours on an accreditated course (e.g. BSc Computing from London South Bank University) would count for the equivalent of two additional year's experience.

Re:0.1% of the membership = vote of no confidence?

[bears]

As a Pom who has been developing software professionally for 20 years, and who did a fair amount of academic CS too, I've looked repeatedly during that time at joining BCS.

Damm right it needs modernisation. They barely seem to know what a computer does. The question is whether the current track will make that worse or better. And from where I sit, as an interested outside observer, it looks worse. The active distain for anyone who actually programs, rather than (genuflect) manages has always been there, and now the management types are running the asylum it's getting worse. In BCS-land, DMR (say) would be heavily outranked by anything in a suit, and I don't want to be any part of an organisation like that.

For us /.ers, BCS is and will remain completely, utterly and spectacularly irrelevant. And if BCS is irrelevant and hostile to us, what the hell business does it have proclaiming itself as the institute for the industry of which we are the engine room?

By the way, you have checked the credentials of those calling the EGM? They are far from random members. And the vilification and threats heaped on those who dared to question the current course has been shameful.

I'm sticking happily in ACM, which does still manage to pay serious attention to the technical side of life.

No, the cat does not, in fact, "got my tongue."

[Impy the Impiuos Imp]

"what is possibly the first nerd war"

Never heard of Mensa chapters, eh?

Depends on "IT"

[bussdriver]

IT support, sysadmins, etc. The higher posts are about right, its management again undermining a profession - IT workers can be mechanics or even janitors if they are lucky; otherwise, it'll migrate towards McDonalds (and favor vertical lock-in solutions that dumb down the job.) Sorry, but that profession will be lucky to get on par with plumbers. BTW, janitors can do quite well... plumbers somehow have kept their trade up.

Programmers and "higher level" IT workers are more difficult to attack and undermine at this time - its a different game but don't think its not under assault by the MBAs as well. Bringing in foreign workers claiming the native work force is too small is not an act of desperation as the lobbyists assert its an attempt to drive down wages for that level of IT work.

Re:Depends on "IT"

[Lumpy]

It's because plumbers and Electricians have a "trade union" here in the states. They have been able to make it so you cant be one without being in the Union. Even laws passed in some states that require it.

There are real advantages in it.

Re:Depends on "IT"

[TapeCutter]

"plumbers somehow have kept their trade up."

Of course employers want to drive down wages but plumbers will always make a decent living because they know what they are doing and are prepared to get knee deep in other people's shit to fix their problems. Metaphorically speaking, IT proffesionals are not that different.

Re:Depends on "IT"

[russotto]

BTW, janitors can do quite well... plumbers somehow have kept their trade up.

In my area, a plumbers license is apparently a license to steal. I recently bought a disposal and tried to pay to have it installed. $135 was the quoted install cost (and I told them I didn't have a disposal). When they showed up they told me that because I didn't have a disposal already, it would be an additional $165 for the plumbing and I'd have to hire an electrician too. (I didn't pay; I'll install the damn thing myself.)

This means they were prepared to charge $135 for installing a _replacement_ disposal. A job that can be done by one guy in 10 minutes. That's robbery. And since I was having a dishwasher installed at the same time, it's not like they would have had to come out just to do the disposal.

Not representative

[dugeen]

I won't have anything to do with the BCS. I suspect them of constantly lobbying the government to gain recognition as an official chartering body, which would mean £££ for them and lots of hassle and paper form-filling for the rest of us.

first nerd war... it is to laugh......

[nerdpocalypse]

dude, all we do is war with each other.... http://www.nerdpocalypse.net/news.html no, not anything like a complete listing... just took the first 15 things that ran through me head in like a minute......

Anonymous Coward

[Anonymous Coward]

Having a distinguished CV, I was told my FBCS was a complete waste of time and brought down the quality of my CV,
so I left them and am £170 better off.
Let's face it this 3rd rate organisation only represents less than 5% of the IT industry in the UK.
What's everyone getting worked up about - they are completely inconsequential in the overall world.

Going for a Gong

[Anonymous Coward]

Nah - you got it wrong. You should check out the Grand High Hit-Wizard on the internet.
Got unceremoniously removed from his last 2 companies and track record prior to that is dubious.
The GHHW aka Little Dictatorial Bully (ring any bells?) just wants his knighthood and will do and say whatever it takes to get it.
Once he's got that, you won't see him or the new Institute for dust and it will still be irrrelevant.

Very close to the truth!

[Anonymous Coward]

You got the players a bit off tho'.
The main narcissist, megolamaniacal tyrant (aka the CEO) runs the show. What he says goes. You disagree, you go.
Cultures of blame, fear, intimidation and bullying are so healthy in Charitable organisations. Yes?

Your narcissitic morons are really just inept yeh-men to the CEO - aka Trustees - they have to be, or else they have to go.
Getting the picture now?
The CEO doesn't want the members any longer. They have served their purpose - they have allowed him to build his puny little empire
(to match his puny little self).
But he does want the Royal Charter and he does want the Charitable status (mega tax savings in his already bulging coffers).

What he does want is for the members to start their own group and have nothing more to do with it.
This whole saga is helping him achieve that goal even faster than he could have imagined.
He's now a very happy king ding-a-ling!

Re:Civil war? Knives at dawn.

[Anonymous Coward]

Not far wrong. More like the other way round though.
1 trustee - Board Member of the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority - is flexing those infinite financial muscles of his and suing fellow trustees and members calling for the EGM - http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/06/21/bcs_rebel/
How uncool is that.