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Timberwolf (a.k.a. Firefox) Alpha 1 For AmigaOS
An anonymous reader writes "We're happy to announce the availability of the first alpha release of Timberwolf, the AmigaOS port of the popular Firefox browser. Timberwolf needs AmigaOS 4.1 Update 2 installed. Please read the documentation for information about usage and limitations. This is an alpha release, meaning it will have a lot of problems still, and be slower than it should be. We are releasing it as a small 'Thank you' to all those that have donated in the past to show that development is still going on. Timberwolf is available on os4depot.net. For further information and feedback, check the Timberwolf support forum on amigans.net."
How responsive is this port? Is it fast enough to get a first post on slashdot?
You can mark this as flamebait or whatever, but this was clearly posted here because of the novelty of porting a modern, popular program to an obsolete OS.
Which means that the obsolete OS still has users -- so I think my question has some merit.
There's no -1 for "I don't get it."
Does this run on anything besides official Amigas? Does it run on anything fast enough to make Firefox worthwhile? If so, does it still support all the original Amiga software?
Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
| Guru Meditation Error |
Waiting for an amusing sig.
Quite. It's dead Jim, give it up. What's next? a DOS version, CPM Acorn OS. OK It's a geek thing to say we can. How many Amiga systems still work? So 3 other people download it, say WOW, and then never use it again? No doubt I'll be called a troll but really shouldn't you put your mad skillz to a better use?
People use new PowerPC Amigas because they can. Classic Amigas are at least collectible because they were 10 years ahead of their time when they came out. They have held their value well.
PCs depreciate very quickly by comparison. The fact that every new version of the OS needs more hardware each time drives the value of used PCs through the floor.
I can understand why people think the next-generation Amigas with the PowerPC chips are not so great though. They use commodity hardware internally instead of doing original stuff like Commodore did.
Three things:
1) Why call it Timberwolf? To avoid the Iceweasel debacle?
2) Timberwolf sounds a whole lot cooler than Firefox.
3) AmigaOS looks pretty from the screenshots.
I call it 'The Aristocrats'
Awesome, now Gurus will be mediated to troubleshoot Firefox (I mean Timberwolf) issues.
So does anyone know the exact string the browser identifies as?
I am thinking I should set my browser to match this.
...and Commodore64 application development continues unfalteringly.
I can understand it perfectly. It's the novelty, the nostalgia, and the challenge. If people think they'll enjoy the results, why not?
--
You must be new here...
It's not AS obsolete as one might think, amiga OS 4.1 update 2 was released in 2010. Amiga OS 4 was released in 2006. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amiga_OS_4
Anything starring Rob Schneider or Ben Stiller? The first 15 seconds of the movie is usually the limit of what any normal person could stand of them.
This isn't the old Amiga OS running on old hardware. This is a new version (as in 2000's) of the Amiga OS to take advantage of newer, more powerful hardware etc.
Could someone with mad hacker skills and way too much time on their hands please post some figures comparing the computing power of an Amiga to an iPad?
I'm just nostalgic as anyone else who started messing with computers in the 70s and I remember the first machines I used and owned with great fondness. But you have to recognize that your "hobby time" spent with antique hardware and software is of very little benefit to the world.
Which is why it's called a hobby.
XML is a known as a key material required to create SMD: Software of Mass Destruction
You can mark this as flamebait or whatever, but this was clearly posted here because of the novelty of porting a modern, popular program to an obsolete OS.
Which means that the obsolete OS still has users -- so I think my question has some merit.
The wonderful thing about open-source software is that "because you can" is a perfectly valid reason, as are "because I personally want it" and "because it's a challenge."
If this was an announcement of, say, Microsoft Office or Adobe CS5 being ported to an obsolete OS, you'd have to wonder about the sanity of the company in question.
Both users should be very impressed.
And ya, it's not flamebait. Silly mods.
Serious? Seriousness is well above my pay grade.
OS4.1 is a decent enough OS, and the current Amiga OS machines have fast modern CPUs.
Some people simply like Amiga OS. The way the Amiga does screens (every application on its own desktop at its own resolution) and the fast boot time and the datatypes system are all pretty nice innovations that you don't get with other platforms.
Mac user: Your sad devotion to that dying religion hasn't helped you conjure up the stolen Commodore glory!
Amiga user: I find your lack of faith disturbing. Pinch. Pinch. Damnit. Why isn't it working!?
"He who would learn astronomy, and other recondite arts, let him go elsewhere. " -- John Calvin, commenting on Genesis 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvUc7hXUAX8 - Timberwolf on micro A1 - it's fast, despite the Alpha Version.
It's quite simple:
The most used software of todays computers for most people is the web browser.
So having a decent web-browser make AmigaOS much more usable. And for most else it already have good software. Sure it may not be the state of the art for video editing or something such but for everyday use everything is there and people enjoy their old apps I assume.
Origyn Web Browser is a Webkit based browser for MorphOS and AmigaOS4:
http://fabportnawak.free.fr/owb/
http://os4depot.net/share/network/browser/owb.lha
Someone has obviously made it possible to play Youtube videos from within iBrowse, which atleast back in the day was an Amiga browser not based on any other engine which I know of:
http://os4depot.net/share/network/browser/ib_youtube.lha
iBrowse web page:
http://www.ibrowse-dev.net/
Looks like it got a flash plugin for MorphOS:
http://www.ibrowse-dev.net/news.php?id=1169229504
And there exist a PPC-version of AWEB:
http://os4depot.net/share/network/browser/aweb.lha
Enough people use it that they have donated more than 5000 euro to get it ported to that page. I don't know if it handles the donation from the old project which was about the same think, getting a modern browser (gecko) on AmigaOS.
New as in april 30th, 2010 even...
My other account has a 3-digit UID.
The RISC OS port of Firefox was overhyped and painfully slow even on the Iyonix last time I tried it. It wasn't a "true" port either, it didn't use the native GUI of the operating system. It would be a shame if this port has similar setbacks.
If you have to ask, then you're not a nerd. Go away. Shooo!
Camping on quad since 1996.
I've heard good things so far about the alpha, things are looking up =)
I don't do any development for old systems - I was just saying I can understand the appeal of it. I have actually gone skydiving...and paragliding...and bungee jumping (but I can't drive). And that's only in 20 years on the planet. That's fun for a change, but TBH, I prefer spending more time tinkering with machines and instruments. A general interest in the Universe is a wonderful thing to have.
And it gets you laid pretty often if you can also engage in conversation ;-)
--
No doubt I'll be called a troll but really shouldn't you put your mad skillz to a better use?
And people with the best skills has shown time and time again that they prefer to put it into something they enjoy, hence the demo scene (though some has of course decided that food was a good idea, and hence moved on to developing games or whatever.)
Lots of applications "suffer" from programmers ego by having functionality which may not make sense, be very useful or mostly bloat the application just because "it would be cool to be able to" / "I wonder if I could ..", maybe less so the more commercial, large and managed the project is.
Typical Amiga user - completely oblivious to the rest of the industry. Compaq discontinued the Alpha over a decade ago...
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
Fuck off.
Seriously. Fuck off. You're on a tech site, full of people who do things because it interests them, for the sake of doing it.
You don't belong here. You're everything we fight against. Go watch Glee or whatever it is you people do.
You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
>>>an obsolete OS - I think my question has some merit.
Your question makes an invalid assumption, which is why it was labeled "flamebait" or "troll" by moderators. AmigaOS 4.1 is just over 1 year old. You can that "obsolete"? Hardly. It's younger than the Vista, XP or OS X 10.5 operating systems many of us are still using. - And "I didn't know" isn't a defense when you're only a mouseclick away from google: http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=amigaos+4.1
The Amiga hardware is a bit slow (~800 megahertz), but then again it's always been a lightweight OS, so it doesn't need much speed. The original Amiga did true multitasking with just 0.25 megabytes of RAM and the modern Amiga OS is just as efficient.
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
>>>Quite. It's dead Jim, give it up...How many Amiga systems still work? So 3 other people download it, say WOW, and then never use it again? No doubt I'll be called a troll but really shouldn't you put your mad skillz to a better use?
>>>
If Amigas are dead why can I go buy a brand-new system, right now, for less than $1000. If Amigas are dead why is a new model being released in just a few months?
The only thing that's dead here is your curiosity. You'd rather jump to false ASSumptions, rather than GOOGLE for information about the Amiga: http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=amiga+os+4.1
You're not a troll.
You're just an ignorant boob with a big mouth, and
you made yourself look like an idiot with your "Amiga's dead" comment.
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
For all four of them.
I am anxiously waiting for the ZX Spectrum port.
Aaaaaaactually... Firefox was originally ported to RISC OS 5 years ago.
http://www.riscos.info/index.php/Mozilla_Firefox
IIRC, there's issues with GTK2 preventing a Firefox 3.x port from being usable, but there is Firefox for "Acorn OS."
Uh, age is not a measure of obsolescence. Rather, something is obsolete when it falls sufficiently far below current baseline standards. It sucks, and it didn't deserve it, but AmigaOS is obsolete. Think of it as WALL*E if that helps soften the blow.
Second.
Even more practical than that, a tenant literally just handed me some cash, I'm popping into my Amiga software (I created with CanDo years ago) as we speak to record the transaction, with records going back almost two decades. All my banking/financial stuff I do w/Amiga software.
Okay technically my daily use "Amiga" is currently WinUAE running on my laptop, but I always wanted a laptop Amiga (and I have an A4000 and A500 still kicking, actually bought the A4000, my second, just a couple years ago for ridiculously little money from an Amiga dealer).
So the answer is you can still do some things easier on an Amiga, but web surfing via AWeb was annoying (and no Flash), that's what took me to a Linux box and ultimately to Windows. However I miss ARexx integration, standard through all software, to this day--AutoHotKey in Windows is a poor substitute.
I have MP3s that were brought over from my Amiga, as well as digital photos from way before digital cameras were mainstream, heck the background screenshot on my cellphone is carried over (was digitized with DCTV and composited/converted to JPEG with ADPro).
Just because it's not currently being promoted doesn't mean it doesn't work! Heck, it was easier/cheaper to connect my PDA to my Amiga than it was to connect it to my laptop.
No memory protection is one reason why Amiga OS is fast. Unfortunately, it's also a big reason why it's obsolete, regardless of the chronology of its latest updates.
Thirded.
>>>something is obsolete when it falls sufficiently far below current baseline standards.
And who decides those standards? YOU? hahahahaaha. You clearly know nothing about this subject. There are many people using Amigas to surf the web, listen to music, and/or watch videos just as easily as we use our Macs or PCs to do the same tasks. The Amiga exceeds whatever "baseline standards" you have floating in your close-minded brain
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
>>>No memory protection
(cough) (whispers) That hasn't been true since 1992. Per usual the Amiga had this feature before either Mac or PC had it.
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
What's next? a DOS version
DOS isn't a operating system, it is a system that operates disks. Porting Firefox to DOS would pretty much require you to write a modern operating system first. The disk/file support that comes with DOS just scratches the surface.
That would actually be an awesome universe! I remember the Amiga people were bright and happy and smart. Kind of like Apple people today, except they were more fun and they weren't scared of hacking and open source thinking.
It could have happened, too. There was this weird period where everything shifted. It was when Lucasarts released X-Wing on the PC and nothing else. I know guys who bought whole $2000+ systems just to play that game. (Such was the power of Star Wars before Phantom). Imagine if Lucas had released it on the Amiga?
Heck, Bill Gates might not have become such a force in everybody's lives.
Of course, the Evil Overlords were prepared for such an eventuality. Some ex-CIA spooks managed to work themselves into power over at Commodore, and tanked the company. Interestingly, it's very hard to look up the details of that since Google searches on the subject get confused by one of the chips inside the Amiga, called the "CIA" chip.
But whatever.
Instead we got Linux and Mozilla. And Slashdot, for that matter. Can't keep the good guys down!
-FL
For the money
I don't need to test my programs.. I have an error correcting modem.
Well, as a geek born in the 90's I'd like to understand why people still use Amigas...
If it's just for the coolness I can easily appreciate it, hell, I ran Windows 3.11 for a few months on my Core 2 Quad as my primary OS just because I could, but otherwise are there any significant applications or niches Amiga OS fills that aren't quite addressed by modern Unix or Windows operating systems?
Are you talking about enforcer? That really was more of a developer tool - chances are if enforcer kicked in you could either (try to) debug or reboot because at that point the app was unusable, and so was the rest of the machine (especially if enforcer kept looping).
At any rate I wouldn't call it memory protection.
Both of them.
The biggest way that slashdot has gone downhill since I started reading it has been the amount of people who ask "why" a person would do some neat bit of coding, or engineering, or hacking, or whatever. Why does someone climb a mountain or paint a painting.
Everything will be taken away from you.
Really, a lot of people jumping to PC ship always wondered how come Amiga could work without memory protection.
Why? Basically, we had some real mean Amigas (A3000, A4000) which were in use at production, sometimes in live TV (titling etc, still used) and I never remember any of them crash. 3d titling animations like stuff sometimes required days to render and at the end, you always had the result, not some "guru meditation". Such machines were never turned off, rebooted, always used in hot environments, heavily multitasked and full of unsupported CPU upgrades.
So, really, why didn't Amiga crash that much?
If we are talking about "didn't deserve but..." thing, Apple PowerPC, including G5 (which is 64bit) has been obsoleted by Apple right after 10.6 release.
It gets security updates, Safari update but at the end, core OS (including open source parts and most importantly, drivers) doesn't get updated. That is not some eccentric platform either, it is 64bit to begin with.
Amiga OS users say they got last OS update a year ago. What is obsolete? Amiga or PowerPC Mac, from $250 billion Apple Inc?
I used Netscape 4.x and IE 4 (or 5?) on a PowerBook Duo 270c, which has a 68030 with 24 MB of RAM running MacOS 7.6. You know what? It worked fine, except (unsurprisingly) Flash animations.
As I know the power and culture of Amiga, which runs 32bit for ages to begin with, I can't see a reason why such a modern code like Firefox should suck on it, especially in days with PowerPC processors running Amiga.
If you mean A1200/A4000 Amigas by official, I really wonder about it too. For example if one could port 68060 running Amiga 4000 and how would it perform?
Well, you might call it obsolete. But it still(!) runs circles around so-called modern systems when it comes to interface responsiveness, and elegance of OS design.
Whenever I have to struggle with Pain(t)ShopPro or, even worse, GIMP, I wish for DPaint, and MaxxonCAD might not be a contender for AutoCAD, but it was way easier (and more affordable) for casual use.
And the development environment around SAS C with its blazing fast compiler that could produce ass-tight code (Try making a "Hello World!" program in less than one K of executable on a "modern" system) is still on my mind. Especially with its support back then - far superior over what I get today with the different commercial development systems I use.
Yes, it might be obsolete, because it had no memory protection, but a MMU is not the solution for for all the problems out there. No memory protection also made interprocess communication way easier, and if you consider how well Amiga programs interact with each other via a system-wide AREXX scripting engine, the lack of an MMU is neglectable.
At least editor-wise I finally found something at least comparable to the decade-old super-duper-editor CygnusEd: Notepad++. The sad part is that NP++ does not run on Linux...
Does AmigaOS have a big base of hackers actively writing viruses, worms and various malware exploits for it? No? Then, it's obsolete.
2019 is going to be the year of Linux on the desktop.
Amazingly some people like old cars too, They spend ages tinkering with them.
Some of them didn't even have air-con or sat-nav!!
Navid you have messed up. Enjoy your skydiving.
Because some of us just can't let go.
And, to be fair, OS4.1 and beyond is pretty good and is only available for new PPC hardware (like the Sam440, as well as the upcoming Sam460 and X1000). It comes with lots of GNU tools, gcc, a decent browser that actually works, good internet connectivity, and so on.
www.6502asm.com - Code 6502 assembly or.. DIE!!
Awwwwww
I was really looking forward to telling Firefox what IRQ/port/DMA to use for the soundcard. And *then* I get to setup emm386.exe and himem.sys just right for it to run...
Ahhh, good times, good times.
People replying to my sig annoy me. That's why I change it all the time.
Memory-protection.
Don't forget about the settings for the network card, and the video card, and a DOS extender...
Maybe Eric Schwartz can enlighten you:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mg6wrYCT9Q&feature=related
Why not? Do we have this discussion everytime on Slashdot there's a story about say Macs? (Or maybe we could ask it of Windows:)
It's not like people are still using A500s. And even for those that are, there are occasional stories on other old systems too (e.g., classic Macs).
Why not have a story on historical classic platforms - this is meant to be "News for Nerds" isn't it, or have we turned into "Consumer News for iPad users" already?
Yeah, you never get any interest or stories about proprietary OSs round here, certainly not... And no one ever liked PowerPC, right.
Well yes by that definition, AmigaOS is obsolete for me, but I'm not sure it's a good definition. By that standard, IphoneOS is obsolete for me.
The definition of "obsolete" is "no longer in use or no longer useful".
If it's being used by people, then "no longer in use" doesn't apply. It's no longer useful to most people who once used AmigaOS. But again, it depends on the person - it's evidently still useful to those who are using it. Also note that this definition doesn't apply to those people who never used Amigas (just as I wouldn't say that Iphone is obsolete for me, because it's never been useful to me).
Not that being obsolete is a bad thing - all the operating systems of the 80s and 90s, and even the early 2000s, are "obsolete" to most people: DOS, Windows 9x, NT/2000, Mac OS (the original, not the OS X which shares its name but is a different OS). But equally it just seems pointless - what's the need to have a hundred comments of whiners going "it's obsolete"? If you're no longer interested, then read another story. We only have an Amiga story once a year at most, compared with the three Ipad stories we get a day, so it's not like it's taking up much space...
Multitasking. Oh oops, the Amiga does make that baseline, it's the Ipad which doesn't :)
Still, at least we no longer have to put up with people criticising the Amiga for its lack of Flash or Java - such "limitations" are now considered an advantage.
If the big questions (why?) are asked in good faith, as I think this one is, it is a great opportunity for people with answers to come out and educate the masses.
Rather than opposing the question, maybe you should put some work towards an answer, as I haven't seen any satisfying one in this thread yet.
-- Home is where you eat your heart out.
3rd-party apps are not allowed to use the functionality, but the ipad OS multitasks just fine.
Windows 3.1 came out in 1992; the Amiga, in 1985. 7 years is a long time in the computer industry. And yet, the Amiga was a far better GUI-based OS. That's why it's so important to so many geeks. I'm still sad about the (original) company's tragic end as a PC-contemptible manufacturer.
I don't know whether anyone still uses an Amiga as their day-to-day machine, but it wouldn't surprise me too much. My Amiga 500 (with sidecar 30M HD, 3M of RAM (I think) and 68010 CPU) is deceased, but I wish I could boot it up and play some of the old games...
That's not really fair. I owned an used an Amiga until '99 or so and was very active in Amiga newsgroups and mailing lists. I'm not a hater by any stretch of the imagination, and I think my nerd credentials are up to date. And yet, I think that's a valid question: why do people still use Amigas? I can't imagine any objective way in which they'd be better than another modern desktop. Subjectively, sure: some people just want to use something different. That's cool. But nostalgia and quirkiness aside, are there any other reasons to use one?
Don't read that as an attack or criticism, because it's not. Again, I like Amigas and have nothing whatsoever against them. I just can't imagine wanting to use one as my primary desktop today.
Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
So, are you suggesting it's not socially acceptable for slashdotters to watch Glee? What if they watch it streaming online? How about if they pirate it?
Seriously, where's the CoCo love!? ;-)
AmigaOS 3.x and 4.x both have memory protection, same as a modern Mac OS X or Windows 5.x/6.x have memory protection.
3.x was released in 1992
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
"That hasn't been true since 1992. Per usual the Amiga had this feature before either Mac or PC had it."
The IBM PC AT had hardware memory protection in 1984 and ran flavors of Unix that supported it. Windows first got memory protection in Windows/386 in 1987. OS/2 had it from the start in 1987. Windows NT also had it from the beginning although that was 1993.
"In what alternative world are you living ?"
Indeed. Not in yours.
Yep, fair enough, withdrawn.
Nostalgia is a huge reason, but you asked for more. Many times it's more fun to code for older machines due to their architectural simplicity. Sometimes people enjoy assembler coding, which can be easier on them. Some people see unfulfilled potential and want to see how far they can push the hardware beyond its expectations. Many of these machines were never pushed to their limits because techniques were discovered after the machine's popularity shrank. Some people want to be different. Fooling around with obscure platforms will make you "unique". Many people keep the machines to play Amiga games. Playing those games on new PCs just isn't the same. Porting modern apps to these machines becomes a game to see who can get XYZ running on the box. (Similar to how porting XYZ to Linux was the "new" thing in the 90's.) Some people merely want to bring new apps and games to the Amiga to support communities devoted to the preservation of the hardware. Some people are hardware collectors and need reasons for playing around with the machines. New apps = new interest.
A lot of Amiga owners are going to have std Wintel desktops lying around and this particular update is for AmigaOS 4.1 which runs on the faster/newer Amigas. I believe those machines are fast enough to be used for primary desktops; although, I doubt you'll find instances where the classic 68k Amigas are the sole PC in the home, but that doesn't mean they aren't heavily used.
This phenomena is nothing unique to Amigas. The exact same thing exists among the groups for Atari, Apple, Tandy, 8086/88, Palm, NES/SNES/N64/GC/GBA/XBOX/PS, TI calculator, and numerous hand held gadgets.
Camping on quad since 1996.