MINI-ITX and the Future of PC Case Design?

An anonymous reader writes "One of the interesting things to come out of the recent Computex electronics show in Taiwan was striking new PC cases — in particular systems built around tiny Mini-ITX boards. What may have once been regarded as the weird little brother of the more common Micro-ATX, the popularity of PCs built with these boards seems to be gradually building. This year at Computex saw the first Mini-ITX boards to support USB 3.0 and SATA 6Gbps, and a variety of new shapes and styles in both Micro-ATX and Mini-ITX case design. This photo gallery shows some of the more striking examples of these new PC cases from Computex, including one that appears to be modelled on an Xbox 360, and one with a VESA mount for strapping to the back of a monitor. Interestingly, while these designs have usually been associated with home theatre system PCs, or for saving space on office desktops, there is also now a trend towards pushing 'gamer' features like windows and multiple fans into these small form factor cases."

Comments

That's cute and everything....

[AnonymousClown]

That's cute but if you put those small motherboards in a small case, what's going to happen with all that heat generated by the processor and all the other components for that matter?

Or put to it this way, if you have to put it in a large case to allow for enough air flow, what the point in having such a small motherboard?

Re:That's cute and everything....

[tepples]

what's going to happen with all that heat generated by the processor and all the other components for that matter?

You don't have to use the fastest CPU. You can use a CPU with a lower thermal design power, add liquid cooling tubes, and fit it into a smaller case. Hey, it works for Microsoft (or at least it does as of the Jasper revision of the Xbox 360 console).

Re:That's cute and everything....

[InsertWittyNameHere]

I'm in the market for an affordable mac mini sized computer (with similar specs, i.e. no Atom) to use with my TV. I find my PS3 just doesn't cut it anymore since it won't play ALL media formats (lame).

So ya, I agree with parent. MAKE THE CASES SMALLER!

Re:That's cute and everything....

[LWATCDR]

You do not need a big case for good airflow. In fact the best cases often have ducts to direct the airflow. Also people are working hard to cut down on heat.

Re:That's cute and everything....

[IndustrialComplex]

That's cute but if you put those small motherboards in a small case, what's going to happen with all that heat generated by the processor and all the other components for that matter?

I've built several systems using these small form factor items, and with careful placement I've built fanless systems that are still running 2-3 years later. I was on a budget, so I dind't use flash storage, and even then, the heat remained 'manageable'.

What I would do today is this: I'd run a standard wall-wart power supply to provide the DC power and thus remove the powersupply as part of the equation. I'd use the mounting as a heat-sink near the heat generating portions of the board. I'd also use a flash drive for data storage. I didn't do any of those things with my current setup and as I mentioned, it is running well.

Re:That's cute and everything....

[Enleth]

It's probably going to be removed by the means of air ducts and high flow fans. The size of a case is not directly linked to its heat removal capacity. Sure it helps with piss-poor heat management with no ducted or at least heavily directed air flow and semi-random fan selection and placement as seen in most generic ATX cases, but it's still perfectly possible to remove a huge amount of heat from a very tightly packed case. It's somewhat more expensive and requires more know-how and though wchich increases the final cost, but it's nothing for someone who can afford dual 5790s.

Re:That's cute and everything....

[level_headed_midwest]

These mini-ITX units are more or less laptops in a slightly larger case and without an integrated monitor and keyboard. They generally have to use low-TDP processors (45-65 watts or less) because you can't fit a high-capacity ATX PSU in a mini-ITX case and the small fans required by the small cases can't dissipate the heat from high-TDP parts. They are popular for HTPCs and business desktops since you generally want a small, unobtrusive machine that can be easily connected to a separate monitor, has standard, replaceable parts, and does not need to be particularly powerful. But you certainly won't see anybody who does much for heavy work using one of these machines. They'll continue to use larger desktop boards and cases that fit high-TDP, high-performance parts and multiple disks.

Using a larger case to fit a smaller board is not necessarily a bad idea. Larger cases can accommodate more disks, a larger number of larger fans for better cooling, and give more room to work in while building and maintaining the computer. Mini-ITX cases are seriously small and a real PITA to work with, but putting one of those boards in a micro-ATX case solves that problem very well. I learned my lesson trying to shoehorn parts into cases that were technically large enough but a very tight fit with everything installed and now almost always buy a case that fits a board one size larger than what I'm intending to install. A good desktop setup with an ATX motherboard, a decent GPU (which is generally about 9-10" long) and a few disks is a tight fit in an ATX mid-tower case but has plenty of room in an Extended ATX-capable full-tower case.

Re:That's cute and everything....

[level_headed_midwest]

You are correct in the fact that you don't need a big case for good airflow due to ducting. However, you need a larger case to fit large enough fans to get good airflow quietly. A 1U server case generally has good enough airflow to passively cool several hundred watts' worth of CPUs, but those little fans have to spin so quickly to provide that airflow that they're almost deafening.

Re:That's cute and everything....

[Anonymous Coward]

Or no airflow at all. Some of the best Mini-ITX cases use heat pipes from the processor and use the entire case as a heatsink.

Take a look at some of the Serener cases for example:

http://www.serener-case.com/

Re:That's cute and everything....

[jedidiah]

No Atom?

The only thing that Atom excludes you from is HD Flash video and that's because Flash isn't adequately exploiting the available hardware.

If it fully exploited the GPU (like mplayer or xine), even Flash wouldn't be a problem.

Re:That's cute and everything....

[Logibeara]

I expected crazy case designs when reading the summary, i.e. Non box shapes. However, I was very disappointed to see that cases have been more or less similar for the last 5 years.

When do I get to see boards mounted inside of hollowed out encyclopedias?

Re:That's cute and everything....

[Willuz]

I run a mini-ITX with Core 2 Duo Mobile chip and it runs fast, cool, completely silent and still plays HD video flawlessly. Having a large case actually makes it harder to move the air since there's more volume to be moved. The low volume of a mini-ITX case allows it to exchange it's hot air for cool air much faster even with low RPM quiet fans.

Re:That's cute and everything....

[jedidiah]

There's a lot of potential space in the A/V footprint. PCs just don't use it terribly
well because they have their own history and a tendency to grow in different directions.
A big case could be built to fit in an A/V cabinet. Big PCs cases just aren't built with
that in mind. Even the highend HTPC cases from speciality vendors fail in this respect.

Book PCs have been around for a long time (longer than the mac minis). They aren't really
showing off anything new here. This is just more of the same designs that have been around
for quite awhile now.

Re:That's cute and everything....

[rwa2]

I have one of these on my desk:
http://www.mini-box.com/M350-universal-mini-itx-enclosure

You'd need to throw in an external optical drive, but then you could get whatever you wanted.

Re:That's cute and everything....

[Rogerborg]

people are working hard to cut down on heat.

They'd be more successful if they took it easy.

Re:That's cute and everything....

[0100010001010011]

My 1.6 gHz Celeron will play 1080p with 0 skipping.
Granted I have an Nvidia GT220 that does VDPAU, but you don't need a fast CPU.

The awesome guys over at xbmc are working on wrapping up a huge merge to release 10.05 that should bring VDPAU, VAAPI, and BroadCom decoder support. Once Again, you DON NOT need a fast CPU.

Acer Revo 1600s can be found for around $150 refurbed or used. People get them working with XBMC with minimal problems.

Or if you want to hold on, supposedly there are rumors of people getting XBMC running on a PopCorn hour, running on a BeagleBoard is a Google SoC project.

You have plenty of options.

Re:That's cute and everything....

[moonbender]

Small cases do limit the size of the heat sink, though.

Re:That's cute and everything....

[LWATCDR]

Well A 1U case is an extreme example.
But CPUs are getting cooler and cooler per mip these days.
No I wouldn't use a tiny case like this for a CAD workstation or gaming rig but for a small business PC or student PC it will be fine.
The truth is that most PCs are a lot faster than they need to be for most users. Speed issues tend to be slow ram, drives, and frankly malware.

Re:That's cute and everything....

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.mini-itx.com/projects/encyclomedia/

Re:That's cute and everything....

[b4dc0d3r]

Would a "standard wall-wart" be able to supply the required power for all of the internal components and all connected USB devices? I have big and small adapters, some are noisy, but they output very few watts compared to what's going to be needed to run a PC - even a low power PC - with everything connected.

Re:That's cute and everything....

[GNUALMAFUERTE]

You can solve that easily.

The problem is that even if you have properly configured GLX for your Intel GMA or similar, Flash thinks it's not a supported GL environment, and uses software rendering. That's because Flash sucks donkey balls.

Just go and edit /etc/adobe/mms.cfg, and set OverrideGPUValidation to 1.

I did that with several atom-based motherboards, including several mini-itx mobos from Intel and Foxconn (with Atom 230, 330 and 510) and several GMA cards, including the 950 and the 3150. I can play HD flash video just fine.

Re:That's cute and everything....

[Willuz]

That's why I run a mobile processor instead. They are still quite fast but use a tiny heat sink and produce less heat.

Re:That's cute and everything....

[0100010001010011]

Unless the case IS the heat sink.

Re:That's cute and everything....

[default luser]

having a large case actually makes it harder to move the air since there's more volume to be moved.

No. It is easier to move a volume of air through an unconstrained space than it is through a constrained space. Just try breathing through a 2-inch PVC pipe and then a garden hose, and tell me you're getting the same amount of air for the same amount of work performed by your lungs. Ducting is essential to cooling inside of a case (thus the enclosed space), but wider-open ducts are way less of an impediment.

Small cases also have the disadvantage that the airflow is rarely straight-through: there are often very tight turns inside the case required to pack so many components inside. Every time the airstream has to turn, it slows down. An open mid-tower ATX case has very few blockages between the front and back, so airflow is much less impeded.

The low volume of a mini-ITX case allows it to exchange it's hot air for cool air much faster even with low RPM quiet fans.

That logic is terrible. Just because you can replace the air inside of a case faster with air outside does not mean you are cooling things faster. It's not the air volume of the case that matters, but the continuous air flow that cools things down. The size of the case has NOTHING to do with cooling potential, so your sentence shows you have no clue what you are talking about.

As far as airflow goes: smaller cases are typically limited because they cannot use larger fans - and since quiet operation is usually the goal for these things, you are severely limited by how much airflow you can push through while maintaining silence.

Most MiniITX cases use 60mm to 80mm fans for airflow, as-opposed to the much more efficient 120mm (and larger) fans used on quiet ATX cases. It's a well-known fact that the larger an axial fan gets, it can generate more CFM per watt / per decibel. Smaller cases just can't leverage that fact, and so they are limited to low-wattage operation only.

I'm not trying to disrespect your setup, but PLEASE don't spread bullshit you know isn't true. The only reason your MiniITX system is silent is because you started by paying extra for (or compromising on) low-power components (like your mobile core 2 duo, which is slower than desktop equivalents, and costs more). You really can't build anything like a powerful gaming system or a 6-core processing behemoth, and expect it to remain silent inside of a MiniITX case (it's going to sound like a wind tunnel). But you have the potential to do this in a full-sized case.

Re:That's cute and everything....

[IndustrialComplex]

Would a "standard wall-wart" be able to supply the required power for all of the internal components and all connected USB devices?

Most Laptops seem to be able to get by. Though those are less on the wall and more in-line. But I don't see why you couldn't do the same using modern components. I'm certain you would probably push the envelope of what that type of powersupply could deliver if you tried to build it as a top end machine, but if you designed it with power consumption as a limiting factor, I'm certain you could do it.

Re:That's cute and everything....

[Anonymous Coward]

Believe it or not, you CAN get fairly powerful wall warts. An example is the infamous Targus "universal laptop charger" kit, which outputs more than 60 watts of juice. (but has a voltage of 18v, instead of 12. Would require a voltage regulator inside the ITX case.)

Re:That's cute and everything....

[UnknowingFool]

Depends on what you want the computer to do. People who want a small computer footprint may not need the penultimate gaming machine. They might just want one to handle office computing like emails, web surfing, etc. Such a machine does not need the most power hungry/cooling intensive components like a quad-core CPU and 3-way SLI GPU. It may even use an all-in-one MB that has a mobile components specifically designed for lower power and cooling.

Re:That's cute and everything....

[travisco_nabisco]

That's funny, my PS3 has no problem playing LAME encoded MP3's

Re:That's cute and everything....

[evilbessie]

But the core i3/5 have the memory controller and graphics on the processor, so really it is the only thing other than memory generating heat, which probably makes controlling the airflow much easier. IIRC the TDP is close to the core2 so I don't honestly think this will be an issue at all.

Re:That's cute and everything....

[b0bby]

The only thing that Atom excludes you from is HD Flash video and that's because Flash isn't adequately exploiting the available hardware.

The Flash 10.1 betas use hardware acceleration, that's why things like the Acer Revos (with the ION chipset) make good HTPCs. The Atom chips don't have to do all the work, the ION handles the video. I'm using one & it can handle 1080p mkvs flawlessly (that's not Flash, obviously). The only playback issues I'm seeing in Media Center is with the built in Netflix streaming - maybe it's a Silverlight issue, but it's not smooth for me right now. I suspect that Silverlight may not be correctly using the hardware acceleration.

Re:That's cute and everything....

[Anonymous Coward]

Heat sinks rely on ambient temperature for cooling and this is achieved by replacing the hot air in the case with the cooler air outside. Smaller volume in the case requires less CFM from the fans to bring in cold air for the heat sink. It's just like A/C in a house. If you have 10' ceilings instead of 8' then you need an air conditioner with higher CFM output.

I'm not trying to disrespect your setup, but PLEASE don't spread bullshit you know isn't true.

There is plenty of disrespect in your entire post while you compare apples and oranges. You might as well say a Prius can't carry as much as a Hummer. While this is true it doesn't mean that the Prius isn't fully sufficient for most transportation purposes. The same is true of mini-ITC computer vs a 6-core processing behemoth. My statement is that selecting cooler components in conjunction with a small case and slow fans results in a quiet PC sufficient for HD video. This remains true.

Re:That's cute and everything....

[Anonymous Coward]

That logic is terrible. Just because you can replace the air inside of a case faster with air outside does not mean you are cooling things faster. It's not the air volume of the case that matters, but the continuous air flow that cools things down. The size of the case has NOTHING to do with cooling potential, so your sentence shows you have no clue what you are talking about.

Actually, your logic is terrible. Here's a thought experiment for you: You have a sealed box the size of a house, the internal temperature is 100 degrees, cool air (say 50 degrees) can only move in from a 1" hole, and out from a small fan. After 1 hour what is the temperature inside the house? Now, same scenario but instead of a house you use a toilet paper roll.

Re:That's cute and everything....

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

They rather stretch the definition of "standard"; but you can get some pretty beefy wall-warts.

The "ultra-small form factor" dell optiplexes have, historically, been powered by external power supplies(because hiding several pounds of the computer under the desk sure does make the case look smaller in the marketing glamor shots). This is a "wall wart" running a PC built with standard components(you could even get them with Prescot based Pentium Ds, back in the day, which were toasty bastards). The last such power supply I saw was rated at 220 watts, DC output, with a slightly higher draw at the wall.

Laptop chargers, for your basic cheap 15-17 inchers, are routinely in the 60-80 watt range. Your absurd desktop replacement units can push 150watts(you know that it isn't a good sign if your laptop's adapter has a 40mm fan in it...)

Re:That's cute and everything....

[jonadab]

> what's going to happen with all that heat

I assume the engineers can sort that out, one way or another, even if they have to use active cooling to do it.

The bigger downside as far as I'm concerned would be that these babies would be a royal pain to work on, almost as bad as a laptop. Have you ever tried to work on a laptop when it develops a hardware problem? Have you ever tried to find a computer repair shop that will work on a laptop that has a hardware problem? Take the miniaturization too far and what you're going to end up with, essentially, is a disposable system: when any part of it breaks, you toss the whole thing in the wastebin and buy a new one.

Of course, if you're an extreme case modder and don't MIND spending eleventeen hours figuring out how to get each tiny little component wedged into a place where it only just barely fits with zero tolerance and inadequate connector head room and no space for your hands while you're working on it, because it's your hobby and you think it's fun, then hey, knock yourself out. Everybody's got to have a hobby. Some people collect bottle caps. But that doesn't mean it's ever going to make sense for mainstream use.

You know what? ATX is pretty good, really. I actually kind of like ATX.

Re:That's cute and everything....

[sexconker]

Heat sinks rely on ambient temperature for cooling and this is achieved by replacing the hot air in the case with the cooler air outside. Smaller volume in the case requires less CFM from the fans to bring in cold air for the heat sink. It's just like A/C in a house. If you have 10' ceilings instead of 8' then you need an air conditioner with higher CFM output.

You mean PASSIVE heatsinks.
Using a PASSIVE heatsink is about the dumbest thing you could do when trying to build anything of decent power.
ESPECIALLY in a lower-volume environment because that lower volume will simply heat up that much faster.
Your post is invalidated.

Re:That's cute and everything....

[Enigma2175]

That logic is terrible. Just because you can replace the air inside of a case faster with air outside does not mean you are cooling things faster. It's not the air volume of the case that matters, but the continuous air flow that cools things down. The size of the case has NOTHING to do with cooling potential, so your sentence shows you have no clue what you are talking about.

Actually, your logic is terrible. Here's a thought experiment for you: You have a sealed box the size of a house, the internal temperature is 100 degrees, cool air (say 50 degrees) can only move in from a 1" hole, and out from a small fan. After 1 hour what is the temperature inside the house? Now, same scenario but instead of a house you use a toilet paper roll.

Your thought experiment fails if you add a 500 watt heater to both spaces. The toilet paper roll will heat up very rapidly while it will be difficult to raise the temperature in the house, We aren't just cooling a space that is hot, we are cooling a space that is constantly heated. The bigger case has a higher thermal inertia - it takes more energy to heat it.

Re:That's cute and everything....

[khellendros1984]

Either way, you've got to have a heater in there that gets hot enough to melt lead, when left to its own devices.

Re:That's cute and everything....

[sexconker]

Actually, your logic is terrible. Here's a thought experiment for you: You have a sealed box the size of a house, the internal temperature is 100 degrees, cool air (say 50 degrees) can only move in from a 1" hole, and out from a small fan. After 1 hour what is the temperature inside the house? Now, same scenario but instead of a house you use a toilet paper roll.

No, it is YOUR logic that is terrible.

How long does it take a house to heat up to 100 degrees?
How long does it take a toilet paper roll to heat up to 100 degrees?

The heat comes from inside the container, using the same source.

The degree to which a smaller space improves your ability to exchange volume is the exact degree to which your smaller volume increases your requirements on how often you need to exchange said volume.

Obstructions that impact airflow work have a far larger impact in smaller designs, thus, smaller designs need to move a much larger volume of air per time than a larger design.

Fans need to move a volume of air, PER TIME, that will result in a desired temperature.

Re:That's cute and everything....

[TeknoHog]

You can get laptop-style PSUs for ATX power, the most famous brand is probably PicoPSU. They have a 12-volt adaptor, similar to laptops, and a voltage converter board inside the case. I've used these since 2004 so it's not exactly a new thing.

Re:That's cute and everything....

[cynyr]

it's not always the size of the heatsink, but how you use it....

Anyways, some small heatsinks work just as well or better than a lot of large ones. Also things like airflow management have at least as much impact as the size of the coolers.

Re:That's cute and everything....

[cynyr]

or good fans. make that square area of that 1u case a square and then see what size fan you can use.

Re:That's cute and everything....

[Anonymous Coward]

You really can't build anything like a powerful gaming system or a 6-core processing behemoth, and expect it to remain silent inside of a MiniITX case (it's going to sound like a wind tunnel). But you have the potential to do this in a full-sized case.

You're generally right, but it is possible to fit a quiet full-fledged gaming rig inside of a mini-itx case. Not easy, but possible.

This case was designed in Sketchup and built from scratch using a CNC cut acrylic frame with water cooled internals that include a quad core processor and high end gaming card.

Here's the build log of the case:
buildlog

And since some of the pics seem to be down on the original thread, here's a link to a blog with a summary and pics:
pics and summary

I have nothing to do with case, just stumbled on it when I was researching a mini-itx HTPC and thought the build log was really interesting. My reason for wanting a mini-itx PC is so I could stuff the whole thing into carry on luggage and fly with it if I ever want to. Also I just like the aesthetics for HT purposes.

On a sidenote, while the low TDP atom procs really are ideal for Mini-ITX form factor cases, I don't want my hands tied in case I want to do more with the box like on the fly video transcoding, or audio mixing and editing.

From what I've found there are a couple of non atom routes you can go while still shooting for the lowest possible TDP:
This was a very useful reference: List of CPUs by power dissipation
To get an idea of the relative performance you might be sacrificing for power savings this is useful: benchmark charts Most of the ones I was looking at are in the High to Mid Range CPU Chart.

* So called "mobile on desktop" motherboards which are desktop boards that have sockets that support mobile processors such as the Jetway NC64-LF, which accepts core 2 duo mobile procs with TDP in the 35W range. This is a more expensive route, but easier to cool silently, especially when you consider that manufacturers cram these components into laptops which are way smaller than even mini-itx.
* AMD has several dual core procs in the AMD Athlon X2 line that have a TDP of 45W. They even have a 35W one, but it seems a little difficult to track down, and is probably just an undervolted version of a 45W proc.

I think if you do some planning it's possible to get a reasonably powerful PC into a mini-itx case while still keeping noise levels low. Naturally not ideal for hardcore gamers, but for others if aesthetics is a consideration, you can put together a cool little PC.

Re:That's cute and everything....

[Anonymous Coward]

"Using a PASSIVE heatsink is about the dumbest thing you could do when trying to build anything of decent power."

Funny, my 4 core 45 watt amd processor goes up to only 30C at load with nothing but passive heatsinks. Next time, learn what you are talking before posting.

Re:That's cute and everything....

[dbIII]

That's what the little VIA based ebox III machines had a few years ago - thick aluminium case that looked a bit like a BBQ plate. I got the "big" one with space for a parallel port, but still the entire machine is around the size of the DVD drive in a normal desktop machine.

Re:That's cute and everything....

[dbIII]

You've made the common mistake of misunderstanding things by going on "feel" instead of simple physics, and I'll outline how simple it is.
With heat transfer you have conduction, convection and radiation.
You've only considered conduction from hot metal to still air at ambient, which isn't much since air is not a good conductor. With conduction the amount of heat you can move is only set by the temperature difference.
With convection the heat moved is determined by the speed the air moves at and the temperature difference. The heat transfer is going to be a lot more by convection, and for convection the speed the air moves determines how much heat is lost. The volume of the case DOES NOT MATTER if you can be sure that there is a supply of cool air and is a lot less important than being able to supply even fairly hot air at a high enough speed.
Radiation relates to temperature difference to the fourth power and is very small unless there is a fairly large temperature difference.
So in a PC case convection is really the only way you can get a lot of heat from the heatsink to the air, and the easiest way to do that is to have a high velocity. All a big case gives you is a slightly larger temperature difference which you can get with a small case anyway if a lot of air is coming in from outside.

Re:That's cute and everything....

[hellop2]

Brah, don't sound so smug. You said:

"Just because you can replace the air inside of a case faster with air outside does not mean you are cooling things faster."

Actually, it does. And this is the point of ducting. There was a whole slashdot topic on the concept of ducting.

I think the parent's point was that given the smaller volume of the case, you have more of a ducting action. Whereas, if you had two 80mm fans on a large case, the fans could just be swirling the air around inside the case, and you would have less of a temperature differential flowing over critical components. Imagine if your case was the size of a garage, with two 80mm fans on either end and a MB sitting in the middle. Would the two fans produce much airflow over the CPU?

Re:That's cute and everything....

[metalmonkey]

Exactly, small fans spin much faster nosier to remove the same heat.
I have a mini-itx board as home theatre pc, when I had it in mini-itx case the small fans were too noisy, and the cpu fan still ramped up to ~6krpm.
I ended up putting it in standard case with half speed standard size fam and now its quiet cpu fan never ramps up.

Small board in big case is a winner.

Re:That's cute and everything....

[Anonymous Coward]

Define powerful gaming system. A core i5 has a TDP below 75W. Add a Raden 5570 (low profile, TDP 50W) and you can build a system with a max TDP well below 150W that will run all current games (including Crysis) at 1280x1024 at reasonable settings with playable framerates.

And with some good undervolted 80mm fans, a decent case and ideally mounted behind a monitor/HDTV at a reasonable distance with some padding at the wall it will be easily cooled and completely silent.

It is not a "powerful gaming system" compared to some dual-card, core i7 extreme behemoth but definitely powerful enough for almost all gamers. Quite a lot of gamers I know still use LCD's with a natice resolution of 1280x1024...

Re:That's cute and everything....

[moonbender]

A well designed small heatsink will work better than a poorly designed large heatsink. And you're right that airflow management is important. But all things being different, I think, a heatsink with a large surface area will be more efficient than a heatsink with a smaller area. Of course, there are a lot of variables there, e.g. widely spaced fins tend to work better with low airflow.

Re:That's cute and everything....

[joelmax]

Well, I'll tell you since I have been working with these boards for a bit now... its really not bad.. I have an Intel Core2Duo E6400 system (Desktop CPU, intel DG945FC mobo if I remember the model correctly) inside an original NES case with a thermaltake meOrb HSF unit. It runs like a dream and the NES case has NO Externally visible vent additions with the exception of the rear exhaust fan (60mm). It is in a small, enclosed cabinet in my tv stand and I have had no heating issues. My next project is to put one of these into a mbox m350 mitx enclosure that mounts on the back of a monitor (VESA 75 standard if I remember correctly, maybe 100 though). You definitely don't need a huge case, you can actually go quite small on the form factor and pack a lot inside small areas, just make sure that your ventilation is adequate, it really doesn't take much to keep the systems cool. Now, if you want a hardcore gaming rig, these aren't what you want (Although the NES does do Half Life2 @ 1920x1080 with all settings jacked), but for a business setup, this is the perfect form factor. People just need to take the time to start making small cases for these boards (Well, companies are now, but not many are trying to make it really small) and start targetting the market that would benefit from these systems (Point of sale, etc.. and yes I know that they already are in these markets and have been for a bit, but broader adoption would be a good thing). For some pics of the NES setup: http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v145/ayrus/NES%20PC/

Re:That's cute and everything....

[joelmax]

I'd mod this post up if I could...

Re:That's cute and everything....

[choekstr]

penultimate means second to last. I think you used the wrong word and meant to use "Ultimate".

Re:That's cute and everything....

[thsths]

> No I wouldn't use a tiny case like this for a CAD workstation or gaming rig but for a small business PC or student PC it will be fine.

I would mind a tiny case for a workstation or gaming rig. But the problem is that despite technological progress, the heat generated by graphics cards needed to play recent games is going up! So in terms of consumer use, gaming PCs are getting worse and worse from year to year. There should be a way to change this, but it would involve reshuffling the whole industry.

Re:That's cute and everything....

[LWATCDR]

But gaming is a small part of the PC market.
The fact that notebooks are selling so well is proof of that. Very few notebooks can play high end games well.
Once we can get 1080p at 60fps out of a cool running graphic chip a good 90% of the gaming market will satisfied.
Until 32?

Re:That's cute and everything....

[wondershit]

but PLEASE don't spread bullshit you know isn't true.

That's why I only spread bullshit on things I know nothing about. That way I don't even know I'm wrong.

I'm no expert, but I'm curious

[IndustrialComplex]

These boards are getting very close in size to some of the microcontrollers I've worked with in the past (HC12, etc) It was just for college, and I've no real world experience in them, so I was wondering if some of the more advanced hobby builders or professionals could comment on this:

These boards are getting much lower in power-consumption and seem to offer a lot more in terms of flexibility, and by providing the ability to run standard operating systems through the use of SSDs you have available to you a vast number of open projects which you can tailor for your purposes. The cost is now around $100 or so, which is what I remember the microcontrollers costing.

So, given the choice between some of the newer mini-ITX systems, what are the advantages that a basic microcontroller would offer?

(Again, it's been a while since I did anything with them, so I might be missing something big)

Re:I'm no expert, but I'm curious

[Anonymous Coward]

Microcontroller boards have different I/O. Such as an LCD controller (to connect directly to a panel, not through a VGA cable), general purpose I/O pins to control or take input from any wire you want, SPI and I2C for communicating with other chips. They'll have USB, but are likely to have a device or on-the-go port in addition to a host only port. And they usually need fewer chips to build a working system, sometimes only one, so they can be smaller.

Re:I'm no expert, but I'm curious

[Enleth]

There's no such thing as a "basic microcontroler". There's so much variety amon microcontrollers that your question almost makes no sense.

An ATmega88, a lower-end uC, costs $0.50, measures about 10x10x3mm and consumes less than 15mA at 5V when running at full speed, which is 20MHz and less than 250uA at 1.8V, 1MHz. With a few kilobytes of RAM and a few more of flash it might look like a joke, but a skilled programmer can implement quite a lot on one and it will work on a single AAA battery for weeks. Years on a sealed AGM.

Re:I'm no expert, but I'm curious

[Tetrarchy]

Well, they're really two different things when it comes down to it. a mini-ITX is a pc platform, while a microcontroller is a well, microcontroller. you add all your pc components into a motherboard including cpu, ram, graphics card, etc, and you can run windows/linux/whatever on the finished hardware and software. The microcontroller development boards i believe you are talking about are really much more basic. You might have additional components like ram or video output, and even might be able to get an embedded linux system together, but you're not going to be able to stick windows on there and play games or anything.

Re:I'm no expert, but I'm curious

[Anonymous Coward]

The microcontroller will offer you much less power consumption. Down to the mili/microwatt. A microcontroller is all in one. doesn't require external memory / bridges / storage etc. The program is stored on the chip. Microcontrollers are more application specific. You get many combinations of DAC ADC PWM communication options (SPI TWI/I2C CAN UARTs). They can have DSP specilizations, built in audio functions and radios and for voice or data. etc etc

Basically low power, low complexity for hardware and software. low cost (usually a few bucks +/-).

Re:I'm no expert, but I'm curious

[bill_mcgonigle]

So, given the choice between some of the newer mini-ITX systems, what are the advantages that a basic microcontroller would offer?

Power is one. The MiniITX boards I've worked with have tended towards 22W or so. Last I measured was with a Via, now using Atoms but not with the low-power north/south-bridges yet (they're available, but more expensive currently).

So you might want to run an Arduino on a AAA battery in some applications and then that would be a much better solution.

Re:I'm no expert, but I'm curious

[jwietelmann]

There's no such thing as a "basic microcontroler".

BASIC Stamp Microcontroller Module

(Yes, I know that's not what you meant.)

Re:I'm no expert, but I'm curious

[Anonymous Coward]

Apples and oranges.

Your college "microcontroller" looks big because it's the dev kit. The industry certainly isn't plugging 18gauge wire into breadboards, screwing the thing into a box and sending it out to consumers. What the industry is doing with those microcontrollers and systems on a chip solutions is building chips and boards for small electronics - things comparable to the electronics inside of remote controllers, phones, walky talkies, audio equipment, etc. A much different beast than personal computing.

1st?

[Anonymous Coward]

why is nobody commenting?

optical illusion

[buback]

I thought the first picture in the gallery was a joke for a couple seconds. The angle of the shot makes it look like it's the size of a coffee table!

Re:optical illusion

[KlaymenDK]

Yeah, I was paging through that slide show thinking "hideous, hideous, also hideous ... and hideous." Are these the more notable ones because they're fugly, or is that just the state of the art?
I mean, individuals can make cases that are so much more attractive ... such as the "Deco Box" or the "Rundfunker", or even toaster fer cryin' out loud!
http://mini-itx.com/projects/decobox/
http://mini-itx.com/projects/rundfunker/
http://mini-itx.com/projects/toasterpc/page3.asp

I was looking for a case for an htpc recently, and the only useful case I could find that didn't come with un-covered front (usb, fiwi, headphone) ports was a Silverstone LASCALA LC16M. Seriously, one case?

Re:optical illusion

[Rogerborg]

The first case is microATX, which (in typical "99% of people over-use hyperbole" fashion) is larger than miniATX.

Re:optical illusion

[Corporate Troll]

That "Deco" style case is lovely... My wife would even allow that in the living room, methinks :-)

Re:optical illusion

[CharlyFoxtrot]

No kidding. PC design needs more Dieter Rams and less Liberace.

Re:optical illusion

[vlueboy]

That "Deco" style case is lovely... My wife would even allow that in the living room, methinks :-)

But would she allow the Manga Doll case there? ;)
Maybe changing the Doll to look like a french maid girl?

Re:optical illusion

[Corporate Troll]

Ah, oldie but goodie... Don't think I'd get through with that one....

Uhm.. no

[Kjella]

The huge majority of the market is laptops. Of the people that don't want laptops, most of those do it because they want large - for relative values of large - towers with big hot cpus, big hot gpus, many hdds and so on. The intersection of small and !mobile is very slim outside the HTPC market.

Re:Uhm.. no

[LWATCDR]

Not really.
Walk into any bank, insurance company, or government office. Lots of PCs that are not using big hot cpus or big hot gpus.
For those type of places small is good as long as it is cheap.

Re:Uhm.. no

[tepples]

The intersection of small and !mobile is very slim outside the HTPC market.

Perhaps they want to expand the HTPC market. The market could use more gaming-capable HTPCs.

Re:Uhm.. no

[TheLink]

Yeah, and though some people want low power computers - media or 24/7 home servers, nowadays I wonder if they could just use a laptop for most such stuff. Not all laptops are that expensive.

Built in 3-6 hour UPS (especially with the screen off). Compact, built in keyboard and screen.

Re:Uhm.. no

[Corporate Troll]

I replaced my MILs computer (huge ass hand-down old gaming machine from her son) with a Atom D410PT with 2GB RAM, 250GB SATA disk and DVD/RW. All fit in a nice shiny "piano black finish" case. She doesn't want or need a laptop and when I installed it for her I got a lot of "oooohs-and-aaahs" because it was pretty and tiny and silent.

It runs Ubuntu 10.04 by the way and from what I gather very well. (My first contact with the Atom platforms was an ION 330, which might be quick on Win32, but was hellishly slow on Ubuntu 9.04 or was it 9.10. NVidia drivers were the cause... My brother uses that one now with XP and it seems to be working perfectly fine)

There are a lot of people who prefer to work at a desk on standard keyboards with big LCD screens, instead of what a laptop has to offer.

Re:Uhm.. no

[sznupi]

You forget about China, Indonesia, India, the general region; also parts of South America or Africa...you know, places with plenty of growth and where people do care about cost a lot more. And those machines will be cheap.

(or some variant could just as well be a standard building block for "laptops" which aren't densely packed inside and don't ship with much of a battery (if any), but do include monitor, keyboard, etc.; and still cheaper)

Re:Uhm.. no

[mr_mischief]

A cheap APC UPS is more capable and easier to replace than a laptop battery for use as a UPS. The runtime of a full-powered PC on an entry-level UPS is terrible compared to a laptop, but you're talking UPS here and not primary power source. Most laptop batteries are terribly expensive to replace after the laptop is only a couple of years old. They are often literally more expensive than replacing the laptop with a like model from eBay. I've had good luck with some batteries, but others like to fail as soon as the warranty is over. APC's UPS batteries to to last for years longer than the warranty, and usually until they have been abused in some way.

A built-in keyboard and screen is much harder to upgrade. Laptop keyboards are also much more expensive to replace. Laptop keyboards mostly suck. A laptop keyboard adds to the footprint of the screen, unless you pay for a back-folding tablet/conventional.

Laptop touch pads and pointing sticks are a pain to replace and sometimes a pain (literally and figuratively) to use. A nice external touch pad or trackball works nicely in a cramped environment, especially if it's cordless.

There's no hinges to bust on a small box. If the stand for your external LCD monitor wears out, you don't have to ship the computer off to get it fixed.

While expansion of these things is limited, it's still often better than a laptop.

Yeah, you could get a netbook for the price of a cheap monitor, keyboard, mouse, and mini-ITX or flex-ATX system. If you're not going to carry it around though, why give up other features for portability?

That's all not to mention running a full PC compatible headless in the size of a consumer electronics component. For $200 you can use netfilter as your firewall, make it an access point, use it as a NAS, run dedicated game server software for the likes of the Battlefield series or the Valve games, make it a print server, serve boot images to other systems on your network, use fetchmail to grab your mail off your accounts and use IMAP locally to store as much as you want (just make sure to back it up), set up a backup server (no, a NAS is not a backup server although a backup server can write to a NAS or back one up), use it as a node in a file/application level/MPI/single image cluster, have it run security scans on your other systems, use it as a music player, make it stream video to systems that do have monitors, use it as a dedicated development box for non-graphical server software, use it as your own intranet web server, or more.

Then, of course, there are KVM switches out there, too. You could get a four-port KVM or KVMA and hook up three of these little boxes right next to your main desktop without shelling out for a monitor apiece. It's much handier than putting four full desktops at one desk or putting a telecom rack in your home office next to your desk.

Re:Uhm.. no

[Nadaka]

I have been planning on retiring all my old worn out laptops into home servers. The problem is that old worn out laptops is that not only have no battery life to speak of, but they tend to have broken cooling systems as well that make running a reliable server difficult.

Re:Uhm.. no

[TheLink]

My cousin's old but nonretired laptop seems to work much better after I bought her one of those laptop coolers - you put the laptop on it and it has fans that blow on it. Doesn't need to be expensive.

The battery life bit sucks too.

Re:Uhm.. no

[TheLink]

1) Once the laptop battery goes, just buy a UPS :). BTW I suspect the runtime of a laptop on a UPS can be quite long ;).
2) The hinges, keyboards etc aren't going to wear out fast or matter much if you use the laptop as a home server.

The main problem I'll have with laptops is they don't come with multiple Ethernet NICs (but the usual 1 x Ethernet + 1 x WiFi might be good enough for many popular scenarios). The other major problem is many crappy ones will probably die fast if they run 24/7 without extra cooling[1].

[1] In one of the companies I worked for, an old laptop was once used as a temporary firewall. It would sometimes hang from overheating. But after I put it on the cool metal case of a "real server" it was fine :).

Re:Uhm.. no

[Anonymous Coward]

Perhaps they want to expand the HTPC market. The market could use more gaming-capable HTPCs.

What the hell is a 'Hot Top PC'?

Re:Uhm.. no

[mr_mischief]

Just make sure you're not using one of those crappy laptops that power through the battery and only use AC to charge the battery. ;-) Many of these small box systems can be specified and configured with processors, chipsets, and drive systems that make their power draw comparable to laptops.

They can also be configured to draw quite a bit of power, too, though. You can get anything from a Via C3 through an Athlon II X4 (including a Core 2 Duo E7500 and lots of Atoms for Intel fans) in small form factors. And that's just if you're buying rather than building.

My main laptop's fan runs much more than most of my desktops given the same sort of use. I can imagine it's going to be a pain to replace when it goes. At least fans are cheap.

I can, at least, use the built-in 10/100, the built-in 802.11b, some USB networking (up to 4 with no hub if I give up my external mouse), and a PC Card adapter. I can actually upgrade my wifi because it's on a MiniPCI. Heck, this thing even has a built-in modem.

There is a case for a laptop, but I think there's a case for a small standalone PC, too.

Re:Uhm.. no

[Anonymous Coward]

Most laptop batteries are terribly expensive to replace after the laptop is only a couple of years old. They are often literally more expensive than replacing the laptop with a like model from eBay. I've had good luck with some batteries, but others like to fail as soon as the warranty is over. APC's UPS batteries to to last for years longer than the warranty, and usually until they have been abused in some way.

Difference is, laptops need to be mobile, which means Li-ion, almost universally Co-based -- best energy/weight option. UPSes need to last forever while kept fully charged, and lead-acid is perfect for that.

It just happens that, not content with simply failing to be the _best_ option for the other role, each of these two battery techs is essentially the _worst_ option for the opposite role.

Li-ion have a fixed shelf-life; varies by chemistry, but Co-based are usually EOL (80% capacity) at 3 years. They degrade _fastest_ when fully charged. (They also have an annoying tendency to burst into flames when abused...) Some other Li-ion options (Fe-based most prominent) offer a trade-off with better life and safety in exchange for reduced capacity in the same volume (and similar weight), and might work OK for UPSes, but are used in very few laptops because of the capacity penalty.

Obviously, of course, any battery with lead in its name isn't going to be good for portability. Lead-acids can be drained quite deep occasionally (although with cumulatively significant harm), but will last ages kept full or under shallow discharge/charge cycles. So for laptops, not only are they crazy heavy, but you have to derate capacity to maintain a decent lifetime.

But the cool thing about old laptops power-wise, IMO, is the 18V DC input required by most. A homebrew 9-cell (3x6V batteries in series) battery could handily power them, cheaper and more efficient a regular UPS (that has to produce AC). At least that's why I've got an old laptop (with about 5 minutes of battery life on a full charge) sitting in the closet as a file server, although since it's been over a year and I still haven't bought the batteries and charger yet, it does seem pointless.

I've been thinking about this

[Pojut]

Be sure to take a look at the [H]ard|Forum worklogs, there are a lot of active, small form factor projects going on right now. One guy has a SUPER awesome mITX rig in the process of being built, complete with custom case and watercooling solution.

Also, for kicks, my (non-impressive) [H]ard|Forum sig:

Display: Asus VH236H | Dell 2005FPW
Foundation: Cooler Master Storm Scout | OCZ ModXStream Pro 700w
System: Gigabyte GA-MA785GM | AMD Athlon 64 X2 5400+ @ 3.2 GHz | Corsair XMS2 4GB DDR2 800 | ATI 4850
Internal Storage: Diamondmax 21 system | WD15EADS archives
External Storage: 1.25TB in a KINGWIN DK-32U-S | WDMER1600TN
Input: Kensington 64325 Expert Mouse | Saitek Eclipse II | M-Audio Axiom 25
Headphones: non-amped Audio Technica ATH-AD700

Not a huge surprise...

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

With the increasing levels of integration(heck, you pretty much can't buy a motherboard without NIC and sound and scads of USB ports, and buying one without basic video isn't getting any easier), and the fact that we have all the lessons learned about cooling during the Prescott/space-heater era being applied to much cooler chips, the rise of mini-ITX seems like a obvious development. Multilayer PCBs aren't crazy expensive; but every square inch isn't free.

1 Step Closer...

[FinchWorld]

...to building my own laptop? Ok, I can technically do this now, but parts are often motherboard specific, with ITX and smaller form factors it might be possible to buy generic laptop cases/batteries and swap parts as it ages.

Well, I can dream anyway...

Re:1 Step Closer...

[Anonymous Coward]

With SFF PCs, light weight LCDs, and flexible/foldable keyboards, you almost don't need to build a laptop so much as just figure out a portable power solution.

Re:1 Step Closer...

[IndustrialComplex]

Well, I can dream anyway...

5 years ago I had the idea to build a briefcase sized laptop. I was going for style over performance, and changed my design half-way through due to the expense (I was just out of college and still on ramen budgets) so I didn't invest in a laptop LCD. However, I kept the laptop formfactor for my internal components. Here is what I did:

Using only non-laptop components. I found a very slim power supply that was typically designed for a 1U rack. This ran alongside the motherboard and was about as tall as the entire board (PCB+RAM height) I used a board that had built in video,ethernet,sound so I wouldn't have to have any vertical PCI cards. Since I didn't have to use the PCI ports, I placed the HDD over this location and it rested on the plastic risers (Top of the HDD on the plastic) I couldn't do much about the RAM but it didn't stick up above the capacitors very much. I used a processor heatsink with a fan since this would let me get away with a smaller heatsink, though the processor in the board would probably run with just a basic heatsink and no fan. I used a standard 5.25" DVD drive which sat next to the power supply and next to the motherboard.

I took two aluminum sheets and drilled holes to attach the motherboard to the bottom sheet, and the HDD, DVD, and Powersupply were attached to the upper sheet. They were then sandwiched together and I used short bolts to hold the two halves together.

The result was something on the order of 12" x 12" x 1.75" (can't remember the exact dimensions). Due to the way the components were sandwiched, it was fairly robust and I was able to mount it with shock absorbers inside a travel case.

Later when I had more cash, I built it into an ammo-can and included a fold-out monitor and keyboard/touchpad. It turned into an AMAZING little portable server for things like LAN parties.

With it's 1'x1'x1.75" dimensions, I'm sure that I could have easily put it inside a briefcase and built in a display. I just went with the ammo-can because having a truly rugged portable computer was useful to me. (in addition to being waterproof)

With today's boards and SSD storage It would probably be no trouble at all.

Re:1 Step Closer...

[TagrenHawk]

Pictures, please!

Re:1 Step Closer...

[IndustrialComplex]

Pictures, please!

It's rather boring actually, but I was planning on reusing some parts. (I never took pictures as I was making it.

It's completely sealed. The ammo can is a 30 cal can for a machine gun, so a little larger than most. When shut, it looks completely normal (which was the point so it could fall overboard in a boat and be fine). If you open it up, you will see a sealed silicon rollup keyboard, a power supply cable, a network cable, and a touchpad (which I've also applied a sealant too for moisture.

About 4 inches in, you can see a lexan faceplate where I used a template to cut holes for the ports. Just above the faceplate there is now a screen where an LCD I gutted will slide out, and then up.

The point was I wanted to make an ammo-can computer but not cut holes into the can. The actual computer components were mounted in the can using vibration isolators (Fancy term for a cheap rubber shock absorber with springs).

I always thought it silly that people would take the looks of these cans, but never realize that they were great for environmental protection. (Then again, I'm probably the only guy that would toss a computer on his ATV to go camping)

form vs function

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't care about the dimensions, as even in a mini apartment a tower does not eat up too much space.
Smaller is nicer, but in 1988 with the apple //gs and in the 92 with the mac lc, i had cases that could be disassembled without needing even a screwdriver. I installed an audio card and ram in the //gs more easily than i did in my 2002 tower pc. Are we sure we have our priorities right? Make cases like in the eighties and add an optional lock for those needing to secure the boxes, case solved! (pun intended)

Re:form vs function

[jedidiah]

> I don't care about the dimensions, as even in a mini apartment a tower does not eat up too much space.

Are you nuts?

Even in a 3000 sqft house, not having an oversized monstrosity in the home office is nice if you aren't
treating that room as a mini data center. Most of the space in a desktop PC is totally wasted. Many of
the name brand systems aren't particularly upgradeable despite their size. The last brand name crap-box
I bought was like that: no more upgradeable than a mini.

Re:form vs function

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

If you want toolless, your best bet is actually soulless corporate drone-boxxen. They tend to be crushingly ugly; and slightly more expensive per unit spec than gamer homebuilds; but they are explicitly designed so that a monkey could replace pretty much FRU(with the possible exception of the motherboard, which is often screwed down) with its bare hands, and an experienced tech can replace all the FRUs in ~5 minutes.

Generic whitebox cases have gotten somewhat better in the toollessness department; but corporate drone-boxes have always been two steps ahead in that department.

Re:form vs function

[Rudeboy777]

Not only that, because replacing an FRU that is covered under warranty costs the OEM money (on-site tech or RMA) you can expect pretty high quality and life expectancy from the most common components to fail (PSU, hard drive, motherboard).

See Dell Optiplex or HP Elite.

agreed

[butterflysrage]

the market for these are slim... people who want small and portable and are willing to sacrifice upgradability to get it are going to get a laptop (maybe hook a big monitor to it via a base station at home), and those who want upgradability and are willing to sacrifice size to get it are going to buy a full sized tower.

I've had enough headaches trying to fit stuff into a full sized tower without conflicts, I would hate to try it with one of those tiny things.

Re:agreed

[mr_mischief]

Think "restaurant" or "retail shop". A POS system generally doesn't move around much. Buying an all-in-one is expensive. Messing with long cables and big boxes hidden under the counter eating dust isn't a very good use of tech time (usually billable per hour since these businesses rarely have any IT staff, or traveling staff if it's a chain) or of space at the checkout station. Screwing a VESA-mount PC onto the back of an LCD monitor and running really short cables makes loads of sense. If you think POS isn't a big enough market to make it, remember that IBM and NCR both got big that way.

Also, HTPCs really don't need their own monitors, and small is good there too.

Office complexes could be much nicer if when moving people around you picked up their tiny little PC and carried it to their new desk, not to mention the same problems with dust, heat, and rats' nests of cables as in POS but across many more machines. Getting a PC up off the (carpeted!) floor in the corner of the office or under the desk where it'll be kicked repeatedly is a good thing.

I don't really want a full tower or a laptop on my kitchen counter or on my nightstand. I'd rather have something small, quiet, and cheap. Hook it up to a cheap LCD, a cheap keyboard and a trackball or touch pad. I can use cordless I/O if I want, and slide the pointer and keyboard into a drawer when I'm not using one or the other. I don't really need to pay for a laptop or have the bulk of the keyboard on my table or counter when I'm not using them this way. A laptop may be portable, but even the smallest netbook has more footprint than an LCD monitor.

Oh, you were just talking about a person's main all-purpose consumer PC? That's all well and good, but the market is so much bigger than that.

Wow, rectangles!

[Junior J. Junior III]

I fail to see what's so striking about rectangular boxes. These aren't really any different from what we've been seeing for the last 10+ years or so. Some of them are a bit stylish, but I don't see any new innovations in the photos posted in TFA. What's so striking about these, exactly?

Re:Wow, rectangles!

[Logibeara]

Hey, one looks just like an xbox 360. Amazing amirite?

Re:Wow, rectangles!

[newcastlejon]

While a sphere may enclose the most volume with a given surface area a square object wastes none from a stacking perspective.

Re:Wow, rectangles!

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

That and the fact that making boxes out of sheet metal is cheaper than making spheres out of sheet metal...

And PC-boards that aren't flat rectangles are very much special order items.(can you even get curved PCBs? There are those flexible plastic ribbon cables that sometimes have an IC or two soldered on; but I don't think I've ever seen a PCB of any nontrivial size that wasn't flat.)

Re:Wow, rectangles!

[newcastlejon]

That and the fact that making boxes out of sheet metal is cheaper than making spheres out of sheet metal...

Depends how big they are; I'm sure you could spin a mini-itx one fairly easily if you wanted to.

Re:Wow, rectangles!

[adeft]

You wouldn't happen to like Apple products would you? ;)

Re:Wow, rectangles!

[Anonymous Coward]

I order PCB's with odd shapes on a regular basis. You don't pay for the shape but for the total surface area that is wasted on the manufactured panel, the result is usually that you pay for width*height but it costs nothing extra to cut of the corners to make the cards circular. (Torpedos often have circular PCB's btw.)
So to answer your question: Non-flat PCB's are more or less special order, non-rectangular not so much. (I have run into a lot of companies that manufacture flexible PCB's but usually they have been a bit more expesive. My guess is that they become cheaper than regular PCB's in larger amounts but if you bend them at the places wheere you have components you tend to get fracures in the components and things don't work so well after that.)

Re:Wow, rectangles!

[Hognoxious]

I tried it, but it kept rolling off the desk.

I'd consider the families a little differently.

[mr_mischief]

Micro-ATX is the little brother of ATX, and Flex-ATX is the little brother to Micro-ATX. ITX is a different nuclear family (call them cousins). Mini-ITX, micro-ITX, nano-ITX, and even pico-ITX boards exist.

ATX was initially designed by Intel and the official updates to it have been specified by them as well. The original design was as a replacement for the dated AT boards as a general-purpose desktop and server role. Smaller versions have become popular as more circuitry has been built onto the motherboard, requiring fewer expansion slots. ATX, EATX, Micro-ATX and Flex-ATX use the same mounting hole layout (except that EATX uses a few extra holes).

AMD designed DTX to be hole-compatible with ATX cases, BTW.

ITX was initially designed by Via, as are the updates. ITX was initially designed as an embedded or industrial form factor where size, cooling, and energy efficiency were key factors. The smaller sizes (mini, nano, and pico) have been around for some time, but have been slow to become popular for general desktop use as they have been primarily built for Via's own low-power processors.

The industrial and embedded form factor PC/104 is actually smaller than all of these form factors, with mobile-ITX (which requires an additional I/O board) being the only open standard board smaller. PC/104 was developed by AmPro and has been around since 1987.

The Beagle Board is smaller still, but is not x86/x86_64 compatible. The only current ways to get smaller that I'm aware of is to ditch the motherboard altogether and go with a computer-on-module or system-on-chip design or to pony up and design your own motherboard standard.

Re:I'd consider the families a little differently.

[CAIMLAS]

Companies like Dell haven't used the 'standard' board formats for some time. Why they do this, I don't know; maybe it's to lock people into buying a new computer instead of simply replacing the failed-motherboard-on-account-of-shit-PSU with a new board. And now there's Mini-BTX as well.

Don't forget microATX can get quite small! It's only just-barely larger than mini-ITX. It's out there and has been for quite some time, just not terribly popular.

Ironically, all these board formats are ATX power supply compatible (20 or 24 pin): they can use the same PSU.

We probably won't get much smaller in the 'common workstation' arena until we move away from slot expansions and on to pinless sockets, fiber optic connectors, or something similar. It's simply not possible to cram too many more connectors onto the boards (I mean, look at some of those pictures). There are also the limits of the RAM and PSU connector form factor in addition to the card slots and breakouts. Even taking those off, you're not likely to shave more than 1/2" dimensionally: there's too much room dedicated to that backside breakout and support chips/electrical systems.

Re:I'd consider the families a little differently.

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't forget microATX can get quite small! It's only just-barely larger than mini-ITX. It's out there and has been for quite some time, just not terribly popular.

I think you mean something else, because Micro ATX boards are about 9"x9" and are very popular boards. Most of them are all-in-one designs with built in video and a few expansion slots. I use them a lot for desktop builds where the user doesn't need a real video card (but with the PCIe/PCI slots we can add one later). They take standard power connectors just like their bigger ATX brothers and really don't limit you in any way other then having 2-3 fewer expansion slots.

Computer form factor

(Although there are some smaller then normal Micro-ATX boards out there. Maybe that's what you referred to.)

Re:I'd consider the families a little differently.

[metamatic]

Thank you, that's the most useful and informative post I've seen on Slashdot in months. I'd wondered why there were two ?TX families.

Re:I'd consider the families a little differently.

[mr_mischief]

There are also BTX, which was an Intel attempt at a smaller format but which has been superseded by micro-ATX and flex-ATX since they, unlike BTX, are compatible with ATX cases.

I think I mentioned DTX, which AMD introduced specifically for HTPC and such.

Intel also had WTX specifically for servers and high-end workstations. It was even larger than EATX, but the extra size is really unnecessary these days since you can get dual-socket boards in EATX. Most quad-socket boards are in a form factor called SSI MEB, which is about the same size WTX was. There are also SSI CEB and SSI MEB in that SSI family. Notice Wikipedia knows little about SSI.

Then there's the ETX and XTX family which are actually COM systems rather than true motherboards.

Then there's all the non-?TX stuff like NLX, LPX, EBX, EPIC, and a few more besides. Then there are all the proprietary boards out there.

For a pretty good comparison of the more common formats, Wikipedia has a computer motherboard form factor article and several individual articles for ATX, NLX, LPX, etc.

Then there's formfactors.org which, as the name suggests, is a whole site dedicated to documenting and reporting news updates on motherboard form factors. They have comparisons, specs, guides, info on testing equipment for system designers and builders, and list news on updates to specs and such on their main page.

Then there are embedded systems company sites and small-board enthusiast sites like smallformfactor.com (industry journal), mini-itx.com (small system enthusiasts_), pc104.com (list of PC/104 part suppliers), PC/104 Consortium, and places like Embedded Planet which sells embedded computer stuff including even more specialized small form factors, like AMC, PCI, microPCI, PrPMC, and other "industrial" form factors that typically require a chassis and backplane system designed for rack mounting in the industrial control or telecommunications applications.

Re:I'd consider the families a little differently.

[evanspw]

From memory BTX came out somewhat after micro-ATX, but never took off. None of the Taiwanese name-brand mobo makers went for it. It was meant to have better cool-ability (ie, air flow over the board and CPU). Don't most Dell designs use BTX or something very similar?

Re:I'd consider the families a little differently.

[mr_mischief]

TBH, I can never remember what Dell machines followed what motherboard standard to what extent, if at all. Their systems seem reliable enough for the money, but being able to order stock replacement components has never been their strongest point.

Nice

[lennier1]

Should be enough for a living room system with a bit more power or an office machine that doesn't have to run more than an office suite and a browser. But it won't beat a dual socket Xeon graphics workstation built to run 3D software.

Re:Nice

[Anonymous Coward]

Thanks for that, Captain Obvious.

Think HTPC

[tepples]

even in a mini apartment a tower does not eat up too much space.

Think "home theater PC". A smaller, quieter, less boxy case would fit in better next to an HDTV monitor.

i had cases that could be disassembled without needing even a screwdriver.

Every Dell desktop PC that I've owned has had latches that pop open to reveal the inside of the case.

Blame Nvidia

[Anonymous Coward]

From a (non-free) Linux point of view, Nvidia single-handedly made mini-itx a mainstream useful thing. Yeah, a few years ago there were still uses for mini-itx, but they were all on the fringes (who really wants a car computer? yeah, some people, but not many).

ION came along, and suddenly a mini-itx computer became the nearly perfect ass-kicking PVR. The only thing keeping it from being perfect, is the closedness (and all the inconvenient consequences that brings) of the VDPAU drivers. Eventually there will be free-driven alternatives to Nvidia's hardware, so there will be a second wave of enthusiasts, but that'll just be an echo of the first thunder.

Mini-itx is here now, in a way that your girlfriend or grandmother wants one. It just wasn't quite like that, before.

Yes, this is looking at the world through a pinhole. Get away from Linux, and tiny machines were around (e.g. I'm typing this on an Apple Mac mini) but they all kind of suck compared to their bigger brothers. (Would anyone really want one?) The difference with the ION Linux PVR, is that while it is also underpowered too, it's good enough for the specific job of PVR stuff. That makes it a great appliance in a way that the non-Linux mini-itx systems just never really match. Windows Media Center is just horrible, and Apple's stuff is too low-performance (at least the last time I tried it). Outclassed by the often-justifiably-flamed MythTV, and even XBMC. Who would have guessed this would happen? Three cheers for VDPAU for making good hardware finally available.

*sigh*

[sootman]

Looking at the "striking examples" I have to ask, does anyone other than 14-year-old gamers build computers anymore? Whatever happened to six flat sides? A basic cube-ish design is inexpensive to manufacture, easy to open up and get into, minimizes wasted space (are any of your components curvy? no? then your case shouldn't be either!) and you can easily lay it down, stand it up, or put things on top of it. I can understand no one wanting to put together a gallery of beige boxes but it would have been nice to see at least one clean example.

Re:*sigh*

[mewsenews]

The great thing if you want a "clean" case is that there is usually a manufacturer offering one, stock. If you want a great example of a cleanly designed Mini-ITX case, I'd suggest you check out the Lian Li PC-Q07B. It's very spartan, all aluminum, and has room for a regular ATX-sized power supply.

Here's a youtube unboxing video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZceNJAW7AU

One of the weird down-sides to the case is that some Mini-ITX boards consume so little power that they come with laptop-style power supplies, which would end up leaving a big gaping hole.

Re:*sigh*

[HolyLime]

So umm... at what point did that kids need to get off your lawn?

Re:*sigh*

[CAIMLAS]

"First adopters" have always been into the pretty curvy thing. Think: sports cars. Nobody makes boring first-release products; the early ones are "sexy", with the $20 just-the-facts-ma'am variety will come later.

Re:*sigh*

[DragonWriter]

Looking at the "striking examples" I have to ask, does anyone other than 14-year-old gamers build computers anymore? Whatever happened to six flat sides?

If you check any place that sells cases (newegg, etc.) you'll find plenty, for just about any motherboard size.

Re:*sigh*

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey I'm 29....

Re:*sigh*

[Anonymous Coward]

are any of your components curvy?

One of mine is...

21st Century Calling!

[Shuh]

These smaller form factors are overdue. Tower PCs the size of a labrador retriever are 90's technology.

Re:21st Century Calling!

[evilviper]

Tower PCs the size of a labrador retriever are 90's technology.

Actually, they're 80's technology, but that's no reason to get rid of them.

Cars today aren't substantially different from designs in the 50's, and yet, nobody is clamoring for drastic redesigns.

Honestly, unless you're in a brutally tiny apartment, why do you care how big your PC is? Put it on the floor, out of the way, and forget about it. Sure, it's not stylish, but it's much cheaper than any alternatives, and it offers extreme flexibility should you want to add some new devices to it. What happens when you decide you need more space, better graphics, and next-gen WiFi? Buy a whole new system, or drop in 4 expansion cards? Oops, system's too small, no room for those.

Re:21st Century Calling!

[fluffernutter]

I think it depends on the situation. I live in a fairly big house and I have two systems with XBMC on them. My basement is open and there is lots of free space so I have a normal mid-tower with a mini-ATX board. However, I have a 40" TV sitting in a space pretty much just the right size for it. My acer revo sits in there nicely; there is no room for a full size PC.

Also sound is a concern. the PC is louder with the fans but I have a louder sound system downstairs to compensate. I prefer having the silent revo upstairs.

Re:21st Century Calling!

[evilviper]

there is no room for a full size PC.

No? Turned sideways? Laying on it's side? Still no room? I'd be inclined to run longer cables (in fact I did), rather than get a mini-system to fit in a cramped space.

Also sound is a concern. the PC is louder with the fans but I have a louder sound system downstairs to compensate. I prefer having the silent revo upstairs.

The larger the case, the better your chances of making it quiet, NOT the other way around.

Re:21st Century Calling!

[fluffernutter]

No? Turned sideways? Laying on it's side? Still no room? I'd be inclined to run longer cables (in fact I did), rather than get a mini-system to fit in a cramped space.

Nope, it's on top of two side by side IKEA wordrobes. The TV is in the middle on the edges so it's fine but they are filling an indent in the wall exactly, making a cubby-hole at the top. No place to put something the size and weight of a full PC.

The larger the case, the better your chances of making it quiet, NOT the other way around.

*shrug* My $300 acer revo is absolutely silent and low power. A fan is not even required with an atom although I think it has one. I'd have a hard time putting something together that quiet. An absolutely silent PSU, CPU fan, and case fan would probably run around $180 alone. Plus there are no guarantees how silent it actually is until it's put together and then a lot of shops around here won't take it back.

Re:Golden Girls!

[Anonymous Coward]

Your heart is true you're a pal and a cosmonaut.

So... Mondegreens in space?

original xbox case

[OrangeTide]

There were a few vendors many years back that made a MicroATX case that looked like a slightly large Xbox1. So that someone makes a 360 case is not all that exciting to me.

Re:original xbox case

[Golddess]

Personally, my first thought was it looked more like a Wii than a 360.

Re:original xbox case

[Golddess]

...Disregard that. One that was labeled as looking like a 360 looked like a Wii to me. There is also a 360 like one later on.

Where is the AMD one? at least with that on video

[Joe The Dragon]

Where is the AMD one? at least with that on board video is good for most uses unlike intel where a add on video card is need for much of base use for a small system that has VESA mount

Design FAIL

[Itninja]

The best (read: worst) one is this one with the DVD drive upside down.

Re:Design FAIL

[InsprdInsnty]

Thats the case on the back of the monitor, of course its gonna be upside down from that side. If you looking at the monitor from the correct side then obviously it would be the right way up.

Re:Design FAIL

[hoboroadie]

It shows that more clearly on the previous picture. I was wondering about that, I guess it would be pretty intuitive reaching over the monitor and fitting the disc in the carrier; It does look weird.

Re:Design FAIL

[toddestan]

Still would be a bit awkward if you have your monitor leaning mack.

Video Card Sizes

[lymond01]

What are these little "gamer" cases doing about the massive video cards these days? Without a fairly long case, most gaming cards won't fit.

Re:Video Card Sizes

[adeft]

I know this is slashdot, and no one looks at the article, but there are several examples of very large cards fitting in very small cases.

I love mine

[Lord Ender]

Zotac makes mini-ITX boards with decent NVIDIA cards onboard, and with the ability to use quad-core CPUs and DDR3 memory. It's pretty cool to have a system which takes up almost no space and uses almost no power, but is capable of playing games passably!

Too bad Zotac support sucks--I needed to flash my BIOS (with a DOS disk of all things! WTF? In 2010??) before the damn board would boot, and the drivers available from Zotac are broken and out-of-date. But once I finally got it working it was wonderful.

The next time someone asks me for hardware recommendations, I will tell them to go with mini-ITX unless they are a hardcore gamer who needs SLI.

Re:I love mine

[mdwntr]

Yep, love mine too. Runs cool and quiet, fits on my desk easily, takes some decent video cards and looks great in my opinion (AMD build in a SilverStone SG05). It's a bit of a pain to work inside, but that's a minor issue. I don't imagine I will ever build a larger computer again.

These may have some interesting uses in HPC

[deadline]

I just wrote and article Low Cost/Power HPC using Atom processors and Mini-ITX boards. The first table is rather interesting (HPC = High Performance Computing):

The Nehalem Xeon runs 1.8 times faster, generates 7.3 times as much heat and costs 22 times as much as the D510 Atom. The performance is 7.7 times faster, but when you factor in the price-to-performance the Atom is 3 times better than the Xeon solution. Interestingly, the TDP/performance ratios are almost identical for both processors.

Re:Golden Girls!

[Anonymous Coward]

Scuse me while I kiss this guy

WWAD (What Would Apple Do?)

[Ukab the Great]

I'd like them to bypass the futuristic sexy case nonsense and concentrate on getting rid of 30 year connectors that have no business on a minimalist form factors like Mini-ITX.

They don't seem that stylish..

[91degrees]

They're variants on cubes and monoliths. Curves and colours are nice but nothing new. The VESA mountable ones are a pretty decent idea though.

In front of me I have a DVD player. it's about 4cm high and has a steel finish. No fan, and an internal PSU. Can we put a PC into one of them please?

Or build one into a keyboard like many 1980's home computers.

just what need $30 adapters apple is may have dp +

[Joe The Dragon]

just what need $30 adapters apple is may have dp + usb + more custom cable.

So want to use a DVI / DP display pay $30-$99 for the adapter
Usb key board / mouse $30
E-net $30

WTF are these?

[Anonymous Coward]

I find the inroads of Rackmount design ideas into consumer computer cases desirable. Removable HDD cages / front planes and all that. Easy ways to take a mainboard or a component out while not having to remove most other parts. And good air flow for cooling.

Most of the designs portrayed just seem based around looking ugly on the outside and being pointlessly heavy, with no other features. How lame.

BTX - The Old Future of Case Design

[BigSes]

I have a BTX style Gateway case, and I still love it. Its spacious with a good amount of open bays, ample USB and Firewire connections. All while running quiet and cool (although the Northbridge puts off a bit of heat). I would love to upgrade it, as the box currently runs an older single core P4. However, there are only a handful of BTX mobos out there, and they dual core is the best you can get with a Socket 775 (I believe thats what it run, memory a bit hazy). I even thought about rigging something inside to attempt to upgrade a bit to something newer (tri or quad core), while keeping the same tower. After doing a good amount of research, it doesn't seem very logical to do, I suppose I will have to just find a case that I like as much as my Gateway.

Re:just what need $30 adapters apple is may have d

[Ukab the Great]

I was thinking more along the lines of a mobo limited to 4 usb 3.0 ports and 2 hdmi ports.

Not a huge appliance...

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd say NOW is a good time to build an HTPC and making it look attractive. The Boxee Box and the Popbox are leading the way with showing that small is good, and that customers want attractive appliances.

ARM?

[ChristTrekker]

Where's the ARM-based mini-ATX boards? I thought ARM netbooks were supposed to be taking the market by storm in 2010, so small form ARM mobos couldn't be far behind. I've yet to see either.

ITX

[pheonixus]

Mini-ITX is very cool, i think. I'm running a mini-ITX intel board right now, with the atom N330 chip (1.66 GHz, 533 fsb, 2GB RAM, 1Tb sata hdd for anyone interested) Its an awesome little board! By little of course i mean 6.75x6.75 in. When in all reality, its closer to a thin-client, i use it as my primary, and for everything it is, it does it's job and a little more. I run Fedora on it; multi-tasking, compiling, light gaming, etc. runs like a dream; plus, its ultra-low power. (not that that matters all too much for me) I think that these systems embrace a new market. Embedded isn't so well defined anymore! Look at the VIA Artigo systems. Where does that fall? ARM processors have made it into (albeit unpopular) netbooks. Computing, especially mobile computing, has become so ubiquitous and important that what used to be niches have fanned out into a continuum. I really think that the market can, will, and does embrace this area of computing. Welcome the Nettop.

HTPC defined

[tepples]

No, not a hot topic. A home theater personal computer is a PC connected to a TV monitor, used in part for watching video and playing games.

Cube

[epr]

I've been thinking of something along the lines of a mini-ITX board along with a G4 Cube casing. The only real problem seems to be to find an external PSU powerful enough.

Good!

[TomXP411]

It's about time we move to a more compact form factor for desktop systems. About 75% of the space in my PC cases is simply wasted. Yes, I'm a power user, and my computer has 4 HDD's, a DVD burner, a BD-ROM, and 4 internal PCI/PCI-e cards. But there's no reason those can't be set up with a Linksys-style stacking system.

We can make all of our drives external now, thanks to SATA. Figure there'll always be one internal HDD or SSD, then stack the rest.

Then get rid of the old-school internal expansion card, moving PCI-e devices outside the case as well. Give high-draw video cards their own PSU's.

Re:Good!

[toddestan]

All that air is important for keeping all that stuff cool. Not to mention it's also nice to have room to work inside the PC when it's needed (I really don't want to go back to the days of the AT-based minitowers from the Pentium era).

What I'm looking for...

[metamatic]

I have a server that's been running for over 6 years now, but its VIA C3 1GHz CPU is starting to have trouble dealing with current Linux distros, so I want to build something beefier.

What I'm having trouble finding is fanless cases that take standard size components, i.e. 3.5" hard drives and 5.25" optical drives.

I'll put up with one fan. I'll put up with a slimline optical drive. But I absolutely don't want to be stuck with laptop hard drives. So... anyone happen to know of any good cases that fit the bill? It seems like everyone assumes that if you want fanless and silent, you want tiny.

Re:What I'm looking for...

[toddestan]

If size is not an issue, why not get one of the standard ATX cases built to be low noise and remove all the fans save the power supply fan? You can get some pretty quiet power supplies, and if the components are low power it won't have any issues staying cool. You could even try a fanless power supply and slow case fan too.

Re:What I'm looking for...

[KlaymenDK]

Same as toddestan, I'd recommend a regular-sized case. Size helps dissipate heat without excessive ventilation (read: noise).

Check out "Silent PC Review" at silentpcreview.com, they're a *very* good source for both silent and "just " very, very quiet components!

The most tricky part seems to be finding a case that's understated enough to go unnoticed; the rest is easy sailing.

Two years ago I built a new workstation for myself. I chose an Antec P180 that may seem large on paper, but you hardly even notice it because it's so quiet to both ear and eye. It houses a dual-core 3GHz cpu that's *passively* cooled by a rather large Thermalright HR-01 which remains cool to the touch even under load. Even with a couple of slow big fans and a couple of huge disks in it, it's still quieter than the fridge next in the next room.

Mac Mini...

[blankoboy]

I'm no Mac fanboy but I find it sad that we still don't have anything in the PC realm that comes near the sexiness of the Mac Mini. I sit beside my hulking full ATX case and stare at my wife's desk with envy.

No ECC Support!

[dimension6]

I wanted to use an ITX board for a small-power home server, but, apart from this $1000 Lippert embedded board, not a single Mini ITX board supports ECC, registered or unbuffered. Is the market really too small for this?

Fast, cheap, small.

[Snufu]

Choose any two.

PC = Eye sores.

[Anonymous Coward]

If striking means ugly, yes, these boxes are very striking.

Seriously, the whole PC industry needs a slap up the back of the head. While you might have fast 8 core processors and GPU's that are mini super-computers, the rest of the junk in your PC box, including your PC box, is just that, junk.

I was looking for what case I would buy if I was putting together a new computer, and I could not find a single case I would want to own. Most are either ugly or garish, while most of the others are just tiresome rehashes of the same core architecture that has plagued the PC industry for decades.

When I see what is going on with the notebook and all-in-one computer markets, I start to ask myself why has the desktop PC case has had zero evolution in the same time frame. They are still large boxes of 80% air with a bunch of wires haphazardly webbing components together. The 3.5" HDD is just too big these days, the optical drive is unused for the most part in a day of digital distribution, the motherboard is just as large and unfriendly as it was 20 years ago, the only thing needing a "slot" inside your computer is the GPU, they haven't even come out with nicer solutions for power connectors in the last 20 years, except that at least the power supplieds are modular. Bottom line is, there is absolutely nothing elegant about PC architecture.

Seriously, these days I want to buy a Mac just because I am tired of having a big loud garish PC box whirring away by my desk. But I think the whole PC industry needs to re-invent the PC, from the motherboard makers, to how a CPU is installed, to how components are wired together (or rather, modular wireless design please!). It is very dissapointing that as we enter the second decade of the 21st centurty that people are calling big ugly PC boxes striking, and claiming these new mini-itx are actually small elegant solutions.