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Japan Successfully Deploys First Solar Sail In Space

An anonymous reader writes "This morning the Japanese space agency, JAXA, successfully unfurled a solar sail in space for the first time. Solar sails offer the best hope for deep space exploration because they eliminate the need to carry fuel. The Japanese spacecraft IKAROS created centripetal force by spinning, allowing it to launch the 0.0003-inch-thick sail. While deployment is a challenge in a zero-gravity environment, spacecraft — unlike airplanes — don't have to contend with drag, so with each photon that hits the sail helps the spacecraft gather speed."

284 comments

  1. come sail away by 54mc · · Score: 3, Funny

    I thought those crazy japanese were angels, but much to my surprise, they climbed aboard their starship and headed for the skies.

    --
    Joy! Beautiful spark of the gods!
  2. It's my childhood future... by History's+Coming+To · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Jetpacks? No. Flying cars? No. Sentient robots? No.

    Solar sailing? Oh yes! I love this, it's one of the signals that we're living in the future, if you grew up on Clarke, Asimov et al. Required reading: Clarke's "A Wind From The Sun", Stross's "Accelerando".

    --
    Please consider this account deleted, I just can't be bothered with the spam anymore.
    1. Re:It's my childhood future... by owlstead · · Score: 1

      Do you mind if I add Vacuum Flowers of Michael Swanwick? The persona of Rebel Mudlark flew / crashed a solar system if I'm not mistaken. It's only a small part of the book, but I had much fun reading about all the strange worlds in there.

    2. Re:It's my childhood future... by pluther · · Score: 4, Informative

      And don't forget Forward's Flight of the Dragonfly in that list.

      So, when can I take the space elevator up and catch a sailship for Mars? And do I have to learn Japanese first?

      --
      If the masses can keep you down, you're not the Ubermensch.
    3. Re:It's my childhood future... by owlstead · · Score: 1

      A solar sail, not a solar system. D'oh!

    4. Re:It's my childhood future... by noisebar · · Score: 1

      As a teenage, I was fascinated by the story in A Wind From The Sun. Since then, I've been waiting for it to become a reality.

    5. Re:It's my childhood future... by Monkeedude1212 · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      Sentient robots? No

      That's debatable.

    6. Re:It's my childhood future... by toygeek · · Score: 1

      Indeed, "The Wind from The Sun" is a great short story, and that particular compilation of short stories is just wonderful. I happened to get it at a used book store for $2 and it is my my most prized SF book for sure. If anybody wants to know what solar sails might be able to do in the future, this is a *must read*!

    7. Re:It's my childhood future... by chill · · Score: 2, Informative

      It seems you missed this story on the first commercially available jetpacks back in March.

      --
      Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
    8. Re:It's my childhood future... by Topwiz · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The book version of Planet of the Apes has one.

    9. Re:It's my childhood future... by Sir_Lewk · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I'll second that recommendation for Accelerando. That's the book that convinced me solar sails are way way cooler than chemical rockets.

      It's even available as a free ebook, though I of course recommend picking up a hard copy.

      --
      "linux is just DOS with a UNIX like syntax" -- Galactic Dominator (944134)
    10. Re:It's my childhood future... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      also the classic a mote in gods eye!

    11. Re:It's my childhood future... by cp.tar · · Score: 2, Informative

      I would add Cordwainer Smith’s The Lady Who Sailed The Soul to the list.

      --
      Ignore this signature. By order.
    12. Re:It's my childhood future... by mcgrew · · Score: 2, Insightful

      They had jetpacks in the late '60s. Not very utilitarian, but they had them

      The Wright Brothers invented the flying car in 1903 when my grandmother was a baby.

      Sentient robots? Nope, not unless we ever figure out what sentience is and how it works.

    13. Re:It's my childhood future... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Rodney 1
      Rebel 0

    14. Re:It's my childhood future... by AP31R0N · · Score: 1

      [pedant]
      Many robots are sentient, and couldn't do their functions without it. They "know" where the next bolt is, where the frame of the car door is so it can push the bolt into it. Any robot with sensors has some degree of sentience (relatively speaking).

      Sapient robots... that's another matter entirely. The smartest robots around are dumber than ants.
      [/pedant]

      --
      Utilizing the synergization of benchmark e-solutions to pre-workaround action items!
    15. Re:It's my childhood future... by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      The Mote in God's Eeye (Pournelle and Niven)

    16. Re:It's my childhood future... by Abstrackt · · Score: 1

      The Wright Brothers invented the flying car in 1903 when my grandmother was a baby.

      Just to clarify, when you say "the Wright Brothers invented the flying car in 1903" are you referring to the fact that they had the first recorded controlled, powered, and sustained heavier-than-air flight or the flying car (the Aerobile) built by Waldo Waterman in 1937?

      --
      They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance. - Terry Pratchett
    17. Re:It's my childhood future... by geekoid · · Score: 1

      We won't need to understand how 'sentience' works. As it looks right now, just mimicking the brain may be enough.

      Of course, the idea of 'sentience' may turn out to be a false premise. Something we tagged onto ourselves in order to seem extraordinarily unique among animals.
      A remnant from a time when we needed gods to give us the illusion that there was some sort of control over things we had no way of understanding.

      OF course the initial results from what have been pretty primitive test may not bear out. If the initial tests do pan out, you will start seeing some interesting lab reports in about 3 years.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    18. Re:It's my childhood future... by miserere+nobis · · Score: 1

      Sentience doesn't just mean "having some trait that can be analogized to the concept of 'knowing' something," it means being aware of something, which implies the presence of some kind of being capable of experiencing awareness. My wallet "knows" how rich or poor I am on a given day, but it isn't sentient, nor my refrigerator for "knowing" whether its door is open or not.

      Sapience, well, that's something I'm still hoping we can develop in human beings, much less robots.

    19. Re:It's my childhood future... by miserere+nobis · · Score: 1

      Agree that "knowing how it works" is not guaranteed to be a criterion for making it happen. However, "as it looks right now" can't really be said. The appearance of sentience may or may not have any connection to its actual presence, and every single "sentience-arises-magically-out-of-the-right-interaction-of-some-kind-of-information-network-or-sufficient-complexity-or-whatever" theory is really just running on its own assumed truth, and the lack of any good idea where else it comes from. Mainly this is because we have the unavoidable problem that the presence of sentience at any level or in any quantity can't be tested for. So we can only kind of guess that results we do see in tests are actually building blocks leading toward something that somehow ultimately results in sentience...and they might be, or might not be at all.

      I'm not sure what you're getting at by the whole idea being a false premise. We can't "seem" extraordinarily unique unless sentience actually exists, because there would be nobody to whom "seeming" can occur. Do you mean it likely exists in a wider spectrum of things than human beings? That could be entirely true, sure.

    20. Re:It's my childhood future... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's a confusing book. Spoiler: At the end the entire universe becomes one big computer after all the matter is broken down

    21. Re:It's my childhood future... by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      How could you build a radio if you didn't know hoe a radio worked, or what those parts inside were or what they did? You can simulate anything, but simulation isn't reality. We'll certainly have robots that mey seem to be sentient, but the sentience will be an illusion.

  3. Focus by AnonymousClown · · Score: 5, Insightful
    Did anyone else have the thought that, here are the Japanese, designing and building spacecraft to further explore our Universe and progress mankind's knowledge.

    Here are we, the US, once the leaders of space exploration, have spent billions of dollars to go back and relive some glory (Moon shot) and canceled that, we have canceled the Shuttle program with no other vehicle to replace it, and in the process put a halt to much basic research.

    We're kind of like that pathetic ex High School jock that's trying to relive his glory days.

    --
    RIP America

    July 4, 1776 - September 11, 2001

    1. Re:Focus by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      We're kind of like that pathetic ex High School jock that's trying to relive his glory days.

      But we threw 4 touchdowns in one game, man. IN ONE GAME!

    2. Re:Focus by AffidavitDonda · · Score: 1

      But the shuttle is only relevant, if you want to bring people into space, which I think isn't the way to go for now. All we want to do, is bring equipment up there, satellites, telescopes, shoot robots to Mars...

    3. Re:Focus by 0xdeadbeef · · Score: 4, Informative

      Can you count?

    4. Re:Focus by copponex · · Score: 1

      No, we're an ex jock with a coke problem they are still in denial about. We're wondering why we're always broke, when the answer is under our proverbial noses.

    5. Re:Focus by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You must be one of the jocks if your competitive side makes you grow nationalistic feelings and an irrational bond to a loose and undefined group of people/piece of land most of whom/which you have no knowledge of of or personal connection to.

      Who care what country does what.

    6. Re:Focus by paeanblack · · Score: 1

      But the shuttle is only relevant, if you want to bring people into space

      The shuttle is only relevant if you want to deorbit satellites from LEO intact. Launching equipment, launching people, and bringing people home can be done cheaper by other means. Hauling a pair of wings to space and back on every trip is not very fuel-efficient.

    7. Re:Focus by blind+biker · · Score: 1

      We're kind of like that pathetic ex High School jock that's trying to relive his glory days.

      Absolutely not. If only the US tried to revive the old glory! Instead, it's more akin to a guy watching TV all day and drinking beer, overweight, lacking curiosity, enthusiasm, courage. His greatest ambition is watching the Super Bowl.

      The USA could not get back to the Moon even if she wanted to - the knowledge is lost, gone. There is no past glory, because the Apollo program could not be re-created today, without a massive investment in research. The Apollo program is not past glory, it's lost glory, and don't fool yourself thinking the USA is ready for the next step - the USA would need to return to the Moon just to re-learn how that's done, before thinking of the next step.

      --
      "The agriculture ministry is not in charge of Gundam" - Japanese ministry official.
    8. Re:Focus by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Can you count?

      Constellation is still listed there, as are ESA missions like XMM-Newton.

    9. Re:Focus by Charliemopps · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I can count the number of non-scientists excited about those projects on 1 hand. Does that count? If NASA continues only to accept projects that do not interest the general public they are going to completely lose funding within a few decades.

    10. Re:Focus by Symbha · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I will only point out that Hubble would have been a complete failure, without the shuttle.
      The reason to have a manned space program, is entirely about the unforeseen.

      When we do need to send Bruce Willis up to the asteroid to blow it out of the way, we are really going to wish we had a suitable manned space program.

    11. Re:Focus by BJ_Covert_Action · · Score: 5, Informative

      Meh, don't bother. It's hard to convince the people who keep posting this kind of shit that the American space industry is anything but dead. Nevermind the fact that NASA still has the most impressive space research facility on the planet (JPL) or that they are working on various lifting technologies that include everything from hypersonics to extremely advanced aerodynamics (AMES research facility). Nevermind the fact that American business are now starting to launch vehicles into space, without existing government contracts, unlike almost any other nation on the planet. Nevermind the fact that Cassini has just detected evidence that methane based lifeforms may exist on Titan. Nevermind the fact that NASA is trying to land a rover the size of a mini cooper on mars.

      Nah, we can just forget all of the missions that NASA has currently studying the Sun, Mercury, Pluto, Saturn, and just about every other interesting object in our solar system because Obama killed the space industry, dontcha know?

      As old as it gets to see people post this kind of crap all over the internet, there is absolutely nothing that will convince them that America, space industry included, is nothing more than a washed up has been that is wallowing in its own filth these days. It's like trying to talk reasonably to a kid who has his fingers in his ears and is shouting, "La la la la la I can't hear you!" They'll only learn otherwise when they make the conscious decision to remove those fingers and grow up.

    12. Re:Focus by c++0xFF · · Score: 1

      I hadn't thought about it before, but Pioneer and Voyager are still on that list. Considering the science that's still being done by Voyager (mild, but still ground-breaking), I think it's more than appropriate.

      Maybe one day we'll contact Pioneer 11 again.

    13. Re:Focus by geekoid · · Score: 1

      "nd in the process put a halt to much basic research."

      False.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    14. Re:Focus by Nyeerrmm · · Score: 1

      Of course we could go back to the moon in 5-10 years if we wanted to -- we just need the budget. Constellation (which I believe should be shut down) was perfectly capable of getting back there, if only it were funded properly.

      The research we need is in ways to do it better and cheaper, because Apollo-level funding was an apparition of the cold war and was unsustainable. Things like propellant depots, electric propulsion, radiation shields, and long term life support are what we need.

      Going back to the analogy, the high-school jock is perfectly capable of doing new things, he just needs a kick in the pants to show him that he can't keep doing it the old way, because he doesn't have the youthful body (politically-expedient funding) that he used to.

    15. Re:Focus by 0xdeadbeef · · Score: 2, Insightful

      No, you can't, because the highest you can go is 0x1F.

    16. Re:Focus by sexconker · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Seems to me that the US and Russia (and the Germans working on both sides) did all of the leg work in the field.

      Seems to me a satellite, however fancy, is orders of magnitude simpler than manned space travel.

      Seems to me Japan doesn't exactly a military to waste money on, on account of that whole World War II thing. Or two current wars. Or failed banking and auto industries. Or morans who bought houses they couldn't afford. Or...

      Seems to me the US is shying away from public space exploration, while the private industry prepares to take over.

      You show a complete lack of understanding of the situation. You might as well post about how Japan has better residential internet speeds than the US.

    17. Re:Focus by grumpyman · · Score: 1

      Sounds like Al Bundy :)

    18. Re:Focus by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Certainly does seem that way. There just seems to be a subculture of Americans, of which Slashdot has more than normal, that love to hate on America. Whatever America does, it's bad. They see the nation in a continually bad light. The flipside of that is usually that they look at other nations with rose coloured glasses. They see only the good, they don't see any down side. The fail to see that there are problems with any nation, as nations are made up of people and we are all flawed.

      For some I think it is just because the see that America may be sliding from a position of dominance and they take that to a nihilist extreme where it means America will become nothing, a 3rd world hellhole or worse. For some reason it never occurs to them that there have been other places like, say, England, or France that once were superpowers and now are just very nice places to live.

      Whatever the case, it does get rather annoying. Criticizing the problems America has is healthy, and necessary. Only though looking at the faults and trying to correct them can you get better. Just hating on America all the time is stupid and unproductive.

    19. Re:Focus by revjd909 · · Score: 2, Informative

      The part that's most frustrating is "What's the size of the NASA budget?" And how does that compare to the size of our military budget? We could have a colony in space or on the moon by now, if we weren't spending close to $1 trillion/year making war. Here's a little look at more of what Japan's planning: http://pinktentacle.com/2010/06/futuristic-mega-projects-by-shimizu/

      --
      *** once i really listened, the noise just went away. -liz phair
    20. Re:Focus by astar · · Score: 1

      Precise is good. US manned space exploration is dead. Indeed, there s reasonable evidence that OMB is in charge of NASA. From there, it is reasonable to wonder about the future of unmanned space exploration by the US.

      On the other hand, what do I know? Perhaps you can point to concrete officially announced plans for a manned misson even to a lagrange point?

      And if everything is all so sensible and rosy, it is odd that there is substantial concern that Obama et al is violating the law with his cutbacks. So he says "not quite". Ah well, the recession is over.

    21. Re:Focus by oatworm · · Score: 1

      Correct - instead of spending $1 trillion/year making war, we could instead spend an additional $1 trillion/year on various entitlements like Europe. Whether that's a good thing or a bad thing depends on your point of view, of course; many people would rather just keep the $1 trillion in their pockets and not redistribute it all over the place.

      The reason we're (by "we", I mean everyone, not just the US) not spending a bunch of money on sending people to space is because, outside of a few die-hards on Slashdot and physics symposiums, nobody wants to. There are a variety of reasons for this - pure self-interest (spend the money on health care instead!), a lack of immediate return on investment in manned spaceflight (so, what did getting someone to the moon do for us, really?), high risks (the various Space Shuttle accidents) - but they're there.

      The exciting thing about private space exploration is that it will finally give those with the capital and the desire to send people to space the opportunity to do so directly, instead of waiting for various bureaucracies to get into alignment. Will it get us into the moon anytime soon? No, but, once we get there, we're going to stay there.

    22. Re:Focus by abigor · · Score: 1, Troll

      It's not just the US - it seems there are people in every modern western society who hate their country/the west in general. They think that "we" owe the rest of the world for all eternity, even if it means our own destruction. Stupid and unproductive, like you said. I experience it on a regular basis from hand-wringing self-loathers.

    23. Re:Focus by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 1

      I can count the number of non-scientists excited about those projects on 1 hand. Does that count? If NASA continues only to accept projects that do not interest the general public they are going to completely lose funding within a few decades.

      Fine by me. That will just remove all the political ill-will that's been focused on holding back commercial space development.

      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    24. Re:Focus by c6gunner · · Score: 1

      I'm shocked that it's been almost 2 hours since you commented, and NOBODY has butted in to spout some nonsense about how the manned program is unnecessary because it would have just been cheaper to launch a new Hubble.

    25. Re:Focus by oatworm · · Score: 1

      Actually, Japan is still cleaning up the mess from when its banking sector collapsed in the early '90s; it's a big part of the reason that Japan's public debt is nearly 200% of GDP. How did it collapse? Well, back in the late '80s, the Japanese were heavily speculating in... you guessed it... real estate.

      As Mark Twain once said, history doesn't repeat itself, but it does rhyme.

    26. Re:Focus by ChromeAeonium · · Score: 1

      I think the point is that we're holding NASA and the US space program to a different standard. It's been 40 years since we first landed on the moon. Sure, there have been tons of other things since then, rovers and faint traces of molecules possibly-maybe connected with life, but people want something that can top that. People want something as significant and monumental and inspirational as putting humans on another body. And we're just not getting it. I'm not saying the US is a has-been, just an underachiever.

    27. Re:Focus by sunspot42 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It would have been cheaper to launch a fleet of Hubble Space Telescopes than to support the Shuttle program. Hubble cost something in the neighborhood of $2.5 billion. Shuttle missions are somewhere between $500 million and $1.5 billion each, depending on how you handle the accounting. We'll have spent about $200 billion on the Shuttle program by the time it ends. That's around 80 Hubble Space Telescopes.

      Getting humans, their life support equipment and their supplies into space is outrageously expensive using chemical rockets - especially the Shuttle, which has ridiculous per-pound launch costs compared to other boosters. Manned spaceflight is impossible to justify on a cost basis. Robots can do more, cheaper, and that'll continue to be the case unless and until we can develop some better way to get people, their habitats and their supplies into orbit. Which is one of the main things NASA should be focused on.

    28. Re:Focus by ZirconCode · · Score: 2, Insightful

      There just seems to be a subculture of Americans, of which Slashdot has more than normal, that love to hate on America.

      Do you want to know why so many people hate Americans? It's because Americans are so full of themselves that they can't imagine a non-American English speaker.

    29. Re:Focus by Waffle+Iron · · Score: 1

      I'm shocked that it's been almost 2 hours since you commented, and NOBODY has butted in to spout some nonsense about how the manned program is unnecessary because it would have just been cheaper to launch a new Hubble.

      It's not nonsense. It would have indeed been cheaper (and safer) to launch new Hubbles for each and every time it got "fixed". It's called assembly line production: Each additional Hubble gets cheaper. (This is also why disposable rockets are cheaper than doing a custom overhaul of the space shuttle after each launch.)

      Notice that the National Reconnaissance Office, which has a lot more experience operating Hubble equivalents in orbit than NASA, doesn't waste time trying to send humans up to fix things.

      Had we gone the more sensible route, we also wouldn't have been subjected to endless Discovery Channel documentaries about how Story Musgrave and his friends had to spend 8-hour shifts trying to twist stuck screws in zero-G.

    30. Re:Focus by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You do realize this has been going on since the 1600's? It's a pretty natural "tribal" thing--My tribe is better than that upstart tribe.

      nothing new here

    31. Re:Focus by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      And now we sell shoes, Peg.

    32. Re:Focus by WindBourne · · Score: 1

      Sadly, I think that you might be about as bright as one.
      Yes, W did in fact cancel the shuttle program with none to replace it.
      But, will that put a halt to basic research? Not even close.
      Since we lost the columbia, it has been used ONLY for the ISS (and the hubble rescue). Since the start of the ISS, it is been dominantly used for the ISS (and from my perspective, that is all that it should have been used for; The ISS is a much better platform for science missions than the shuttle).

      Now, exactly what science is going on? Loads up at the ISS. In addition, America now has multiple private companies launch vehicles. It IS true that for the next 3 or so years, we will have lost HUMAN LAUNCH capacity, but that will re-start with falcon 9, as well as Boeing and L-Mart. It is all but certain that we will have 3 or more human rated crafts by end of 2015, and at least 1 by 2014. In addition, we will be starting private space stations in 2014 or so (as soon as we have one human rated space craft).

      Finally, we are re-doing our RD aimed at taking humans to space for long distance voyages. This is exactly what we need, and nobody is doing (well china pretends, but a lot of that is by stealing the tech from America and Russia, and out and out copying).

      --
      I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
    33. Re:Focus by murdocj · · Score: 1

      No, I wouldn't have that thought, because we in the USA have increased the space budget, cancelled the underfunded retread program to go to the moon, and have started focusing on the cool advanced space technologies that will propel humans to other planets.

    34. Re:Focus by UK+Boz · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Why does Japan's Success have to mean America's failure?

      --
      www.boznz.com Simple solutions to complex problems.
    35. Re:Focus by gstoddart · · Score: 2, Interesting

      That's around 80 Hubble Space Telescopes.

      As true as those numbers are, it ignores the fact that without people going into space, Hubble would be floating up there blind as a bat.

      It may come to pass that we can put Really Complex Things up into space and have them work and stay working. For now, Hubble could never have happened without manned space flight.

      Besides, maybe it's because I'm old and have a romantic attachment to it, but I do think it's a shame that I both remember the beginning and the end of the Shuttle program. When the first ones launched, they used to stop classes and watch it live.

      I'm sure it is cheaper and safer. I just seems somehow, less cool. :(

      Oh, but kudos to the Japanese for deploying a frickin' solar sail!! That rocks! Go Team!

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    36. Re:Focus by lonecrow · · Score: 1

      It's not like you have been standing still technologically. Perhaps you can take pride in the fact that you have the developed the most fearsome killing machines ever imagined.

      How many countries can boast about how many teenagers they have flying predators from the safety of a carpeted office building and killing people on the other side of the globe.

    37. Re:Focus by steve_bryan · · Score: 1

      With the confirmation that ice (water) is available in some craters near the moon's poles (and lots of it) much has changed. It could be possible to build self sufficient bases on the moon. I don' know what other activities might be pursued but it would be a great place for astronomical observatories away from signal pollution of the Earth (ok, actually mainly people) on the far side of the moon. Also there really is tritium in the moon's regolith. I don't know about the economic issues of sending it back to Earth but it might be possible to explore fusion research right there rather than some sensitive place like the Gulf of Mexico.

      You might want to go easy on the glib psychobabble about the US. The recent and current exploration of the Solar System (missions to Jupiter, Saturn, their moons, etc), the solar observatories and cosmic background radiation observatories at the Lagrange libration points, impacting a comet, the list goes on and on. These are all arguably much more impressive scientifically and technologically.

    38. Re:Focus by osu-neko · · Score: 4, Insightful

      That's around 80 Hubble Space Telescopes.

      As true as those numbers are, it ignores the fact that without people going into space, Hubble would be floating up there blind as a bat.

      ...and we wouldn't care, because we'd be getting perfectly good images from most if not all of the other 79 of them.

      --
      "Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies."
    39. Re:Focus by sunspot42 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Without wasting $200 billion sending men into space, Hubble could have been replaced 79 times over with, presumably, better telescopes. Or we'd have been able to easily afford one or two replacement craft, even better than Hubble, which built on its successes and (hopefully) improved upon its failures.

      Instead we've sunk $200 billion into the Shutles and another $100 billion plus into the ISS, to boldly sit where Skylab has sat before. Manned spaceflight has proven to be a colossal money sink with virtually no scientific returns. Imagine if we'd spent just a tenth of that money on our unmanned space program? You could quadruple the number of interplanetary probes and space telescopes we've launched and still have money to burn.

      You do realize the next generation of telescopes NASA plans to launch won't even be man-serviceable, since they're destined for Lagrange points and other destinations far outside low earth orbit?

    40. Re:Focus by sunspot42 · · Score: 1

      we have canceled the Shuttle program with no other vehicle to replace it, and in the process put a halt to much basic research.

      What basic research? The Shuttles have been diverting literally tens of billions of dollars a decade away from basic research since the 1970's. They've proven to be scientific and financial black holes. Pretty much the only thing we learned from the Shuttles is that the Shuttle didn't live up to any of the promises that were made while it was being developed and built. They proved fantastically more expensive to build and operate than existing disposable launch systems and in choosing them over continuing Apollo we completely lost our ability to boost payloads in excess of about 64,000 pounds into LEO. The Shuttle represents a staggering misallocations of resources, one that should have been put out to pasture after the Challenger disaster, by which point it was already obvious that the Shuttles were inferior to the disposable launch systems they were meant to replace.

      I'm also not clear on why we "need" a vehicle to "replace" the Shuttle, since pretty much the only thing the Shuttle has done for the past decade is contribute to the construction of that other orbital white elephant, the ISS, another $100 billion drain on money that could have been spent far more productively on "basic research".

    41. Re:Focus by Trepidity · · Score: 1

      The poster in question explicitly identified himself as an American, using the phrase, "we, the US". It has nothing to do with assuming all English speakers must be American. It is reasonable, I think, to assume that people who use the pronoun "we" to speak about the United States are Americans.

    42. Re:Focus by melikamp · · Score: 1

      Getting robots there is very important, but it is also nice that humans get to go. May be one day all of the heavy-duty space construction will be done in the asteroid belt, where you don't have to climb out of the gravity hole to go anywhere, unless it's to a different star, and even then it's a milder climb than from the Earth's orbit. Without making necessary first steps, humans cannot hope to leave this planet and expand into space. I just can't get enough of ISS: it looks like something out of science fiction, but it's totally real.

    43. Re:Focus by H0D_G · · Score: 1

      Seems to me that Japan knows how to manage an auto industry.

      --
      Kids! Bringing about Armageddon can be dangerous. Do not attempt it in your home!
    44. Re:Focus by DerekLyons · · Score: 1

      If NASA continues only to accept projects that do not interest the general public they are going to completely lose funding within a few decades.

      Which is sad really, because most of the interesting work is deadly effing dull. NOAA (for just one example) gets that kind of work funded, why can't NASA?

    45. Re:Focus by DerekLyons · · Score: 1

      Here's a little look at more of what Japan's planning: http://pinktentacle.com/2010/06/futuristic-mega-projects-by-shimizu/

      With the niggling problem that Japan isn't actually planning on doing any of those things. They're bold architectural 'visions' by a private company - and it's not clear they plan on actually doing any of these things either. But it makes great PR either way.

    46. Re:Focus by KlausBreuer · · Score: 1

      Mhm... yes and no.

      Hating the USA (or any other country, for that matter) is simply a sign of being part of those 50% of humanity (the ones with below-average IQ).
      Why hate an entire country? It can be that it's run by a particularly lousy dictator (dictator bad citizens bad) or a government selling itself out to the industry (also doesn't mean that the citizens are bad), or your local PR agency is cursing the country because .

      The leaders of countries are usually idiots. Politics is typically not something done by bright people, so you can't even blame them for it. Hating them will not help you much, especially as you've never met them in person, getting to know them better.

      Best thing you can do is ignore these morons, and stay away from countries who are currently giving trouble (such as the USA, for insists on the right to take away our notebooks at the border for at least six months, without needing reasons) .

      But don't blame the citizens. They're just people like you and me.
      The above post is quite correct - there are a large number of countries who used to be world powers, and now they're simply nice tourist destinations: Italy, Spain, Greece, Egypt, Portugal, the UK, Holland... they were all big, then came a crash + collapse, and now they're harmless. Same thing will happen to the USA - good. Just wait for it to blow over, then you can go and visit again.

      --
      Free PC version of ChipWits at http://www.breueronline.de/klaus/chipwits/
    47. Re:Focus by sunspot42 · · Score: 1

      Without making necessary first steps, humans cannot hope to leave this planet and expand into space.

      The "necessary first steps" involve finding much, much cheaper ways to get people, their life support equipment and the environments they require into orbit. The Shuttle and the ISS do exactly zip to solve that very real problem.

      Until the issue of transport costs is resolved, humans won't be going anywhere on more than an experimental basis at best. It's too outrageously expensive.

    48. Re:Focus by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's because Americans are so full of themselves that they can't imagine a non-American English speaker.

      Or...possibly the fact that this is an American website may have something to do with it?

      Guys! Guys! I'm gonna go post on the BBC website! I bet they realise I'm an American instantly due to the way I colour my words and don't assume I'm a fellow Brit instantly! Not like you Yanks assuming everyone posting on your websites are one of yours!

    49. Re:Focus by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We voluntarily lead:

      http://www.planetarysociety.org/news/2010/0527_LightSail_Firming_Up_the_Spacecraft.html

      The planetary society would have been the first if the Russian rocket they bought to launch their cargo had not exploded. Keep in mind, the planetary society is entirely funded by donations, which is why they had to go that route.

    50. Re:Focus by mikael_j · · Score: 1

      You think it's not the way to go, there are lots of us who think it is the way to go. And those handling NASA's funding don't care either way, they just want large chunks of government money sent to their states and if they can't get it they do all they can to make sure no one else gets it either...

      --
      Greylisting is to SMTP as NAT is to IPv4
    51. Re:Focus by hairyfeet · · Score: 1

      The problem is we meatsacks are fragile things, and the tech we have right now doesn't do squat to help us. Until we develop better means than chemical rockets the best bet is to send non meatsacks, as robots can take much more stress, don't need pesky things like air and toilets, and don't mind spending decades on one way trips.

      While I like the idea of Capt Kirk (lets face it, we ALL wanted to be as cool as Kirk) our space tech right now is barely above stone knives and bearskins and it is just too big of a money sucker to bother with meatsacks in space. If private enterprise, the Chinese or Indians want to try? Good luck, hope you have a safe trip. But for taxpayer money we can get a lot more real science done with robots exploring the far reaches of our solar system.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    52. Re:Focus by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      a 3rd world hellhole or worse

      I live in a 3rd world hellhole, you insensitive clod!

    53. Re:Focus by IrquiM · · Score: 1

      ssssh - don't give away our secret!

      --
      This is blinging
    54. Re:Focus by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So go east to Germany, or south to Spain or Italy, or north to England.

    55. Re:Focus by c6gunner · · Score: 2, Funny

      Ah, thanks. I was starting to get worried. When the usual talking points don't get trotted out, I start wondering what kind of crap you're coming up with now.

    56. Re:Focus by delinear · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Plenty of human endeavours have been colossal money sinks, few have given us the ability to make a claim so bold, that we left this little planet of ours under our own speed, even for just a tiny fraction of our history. Even if the universe is teeming with life, I have to believe that spaceflight is still a monumental accomplishment. Certainly one I'd rather leave as our epitaph than "we killed a bunch of people for something as tawdry as resources or religious differences". If the fact that, in evolutinary terms, we were barely out of the trees before we got our kind into space doesn't embiggen the soul, I don't know what will.

    57. Re:Focus by argStyopa · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I found your statement to be amusingly ironic. Only on /. would it be rated 'insightful'.

      First, please understand that Americans are generally staggeringly provincial; most Americans don't (and never will) own a passport. Most will never leave the US, because they don't have to. Most do not speak a foreign language. Contrary to the view of 'world citizens' like many Euros (as well as a significant number of patronizing, elitist Americans), this isn't because the bulk of Americans are stupid hicks, they simply don't need these things. Everything they can do, need to do, and want to do, all can take place within the comfortably-broad confines of US borders. If they're feeling slightly adventurous, they can go to Canada (barely another country) or even Mexico (where most vacation destinations are less hispanic than Laredo, TX anyway).

      So to your point, regarding Americans' 'inability to imagine a non-American English speaker', of course they don't generally assume that, it wouldn't make any sense for them to do so in context.

      Secondly, what other countries seem to interpret as arrogance appears to be some sort of reverse projected narcissism: "OMG you are so self-centered, you never notice me!"...and if you don't get the irony in that statement, well, then you're hopelessly humorless.

      To suggest that lack of regard equals arrogance is naive, presumptuous, and ultimately self-defeating. To then use THAT as a motivation to generically HATE someone, based on nothing more than their country of origin? I'd call that a self-justifying conceit - dare I call it arrogance? - itself.

      Get over yourself - nobody automagically is entitled to that level of importance; not Americans individually, and certainly not you.

      --
      -Styopa
    58. Re:Focus by loufoque · · Score: 1

      Maybe you shouldn't be caring about what country does what.
      Space exploration is done by humanity as a whole.

      I seriously don't understand the problem americans have with wanting to be the leaders in every domain, the best at everything and control everything that goes on everywhere. That's just a shitty paternalistic and megalomaniac attitude.

    59. Re:Focus by silentcoder · · Score: 1

      >When we do need to send Bruce Willis up to the asteroid to blow it out of the way, we are really going to wish we had a suitable manned space program.

      Can we make a case to send Bruce Willis up to an asteroid to blow it up even if it's technically headed toward Jupiter ? I mean sure it would be pricey but honestly, anything to get rid of the guy... :P

      And to be semi-on-topic I didn't just arbitrarily say "Jupiter" - if it wasn't for our really big cousin, we'd get hit by a LOT more space debris than we do (and bigger stuff too) but it's massive gravity is what means stuff like Shoemacher-Levy tend to get pulled there instead of here.
      On the other hand... if it wasn't for that same massive gravity well, a LOT fewer KBO's would get pulled out of their orbits into solar orbits - fewer comets would mean fewer potential earth-approachers...

      So now explain this ONE to the politicians... do we send old Bruce up there to protect Jupiter or to blow it to smithereens ? :P

      --
      Unicode killed the ASCII-art *
    60. Re:Focus by delinear · · Score: 1

      [...] the best bet is to send non meatsacks, as robots can take much more stress, don't need pesky things like air and toilets, and don't mind spending decades on one way trips.

      Just so long as you don't tell them it's a one way trip.

    61. Re:Focus by sunspot42 · · Score: 1

      That's nice. But instead of burning through $200 billion in order to float where lots of other monkeys in tin cans have floated before, why not spend that money developing cheaper methods of getting into space, so that mankind actually stands a snowball's chance in hell of getting offworld in appreciable numbers?

      Wasting $200 billion dollars on a money pit like the Shuttle isn't inspiring. It's depressing and stupid. It's money that could have been spent doing something useful in space, or on lowering the cost of access to space.

    62. Re:Focus by silentcoder · · Score: 1

      >Getting humans, their life support equipment and their supplies into space is outrageously expensive using chemical rockets

      But honestly, rockets are by far the most primitive part of the entire space program. Getting into space by strapping yourself to a giant firework has all the design elegance of a Wile E. Coyote contraption.
      Sadly though - none of the possible alternatives are (yet) viable. The X-prize vehicles are still rocket powered, they just use smaller rockets because they hitch a plane-ride for the first piece of the trip... wasteful and inelegant. Lazer-beam projection seems good but requires massive power bases (though at least on the ground) - but that only works while still in the atmosphere - once you leave it, you're back to needing some other propulsion system (though lazer-beam + solar sail could be a nice one) current experiments are limited to about 90ft however and rather depends on spinning the capsule at several thousand RPM the entire trip... I'm sure that would be enough to make even astronaughts feel a bit queezy.

      The space elevator is probably the most elegant - especially since it can become a near-zero running energy cost (the weight coming down lifts the weight going up) but the initial cost to build it seems massively prohibitive.

      Space Bolas have the same problem - and in fact a few new ones. The Elevator only has to worry about stuff flying into the cable - the Bolas has the additionally worry of potentially flying into stuff.
      No you can't solve it all with proper air-space management, not everything flying around is sentient human beings or even built by sentient human beings.

      Even if you solve that... well both depend on cables with tensile-strength-to-thickness ratios that currently don't exist. Some carbon nanotubes have come close... if you don't mind your space elevator having a milionth-of-a-micron cable... which is as long as we can currently make them. If it turns out possible to thread them and make a longer things out of them - well their not strong enough anyway, maybe we can make them stronger, maybe we can't -nobody actually knows yet.

      So basically, the hard part of space travel remains the same as always, it takes a lot of energy to escape earth's gravity well, the stuff outside is advancing wonderfully because that's EASY - energy is cheap in space - and frankly since Verne's "A trip to the moon" the only actual advance we've made was to figure out that riding the gun is better than riding the bullet...

      meh.

      --
      Unicode killed the ASCII-art *
    63. Re:Focus by sunspot42 · · Score: 1

      Perhaps if folks don't want to hear the "usual talking points" (i.e. facts) they should avoid making silly statements, like, "The reason to have a manned space program, is entirely about the unforeseen." Yeah, our manned space program really "saved" us from unforeseen problems with Hubble, a cost far greater than just building and launching a new scope into orbit. Some "savings".

      Beyond that, NASA's greatest problems with "the unforeseen" these past three decades have all come from its manned space program. Challenger and Columbia, anyone?

    64. Re:Focus by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hating the USA (or any other country, for that matter) is simply a sign of being part of those 50% of humanity (the ones with below-average IQ).

      Nice try. I guess all those intellectuals who criticise the unfair global practices of their country have a below average IQ and all those dumb rednecks who paint their flag on their pickup and think their country "RULEZ" are the smart ones, right? Well, no issue figuring out which 50% you come from...

    65. Re:Focus by delinear · · Score: 1

      It seems if all interested countries could pool their resources and knowledge, we'd get a lot further a lot faster as a species. Of course, nobody wants to do that because it's all about owning the technologies that emerge - as usual short term monetary considerations trump long term scientific endeavours.

    66. Re:Focus by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

      Everything they can do, need to do, and want to do, all can take place within the comfortably-broad confines of US borders.

      Wow.

      Seriously, wow.

      I heard a radio host, back when I was working in Detroit c.2000, say something like that. "I've been to 48 of the 50 states, what else is there?"

      Oh, sure, you're absolutely right, the vast majority of Americans don't need to travel to another country. But neither do the vast majority of Australians (of which I am one), or Europeans. But we do, because there's a whole world out there, and the fact that they're not 'just like us' makes it more interesting to go visit.

      Show some imagination, will ya...

      For what it's worth, I've only been to about nine different countries, so I've got a lot more to see. But the place I felt most "at home"? Sweden. True, I don't speak more than three words of Swedish, but I felt a hell of a lot more at home there than almost anywhere I've been in the US (only 7 states so far, though they're spread from coast to coast).

      Oh, and by the way, I think you meant "parochial", rather than "provincial". Or maybe that's another bizarre twist the English language has taken in the US?

    67. Re:Focus by damburger · · Score: 1

      US business is only putting stuff into space with the US government holding its hand, and is providing services no better (or inferior) to existing space agency ones from around the world. Corporate space exploration is an annoyingly over-hyped, ideologically driven addendum to actual space exploration.

      SpaceShipOne is a toy. Falcon 9 is, optimistically, a marginal improvement on the $/kg rate you get from a Russin Proton launch. Way to kick 1960s Soviet rocket ass, guys. And you only needed the help of the USAF to do it!

      NASA does a fine job, no-one with any knowledge disputes that. The shuttle was burdensome and now its gone, it frees NASA up to look at getting to Mars. If they've the political will and the money behind them, there is no real doubt they can do this. Seems unlikely in the long term.

      In short, the US space program is great, its just let down by the US as a nation; the blind reductionism applied to any government program, the ideologically motivated notion that corporations always perform better than government agencies (ignoring the fact that their efficiency largely comes from sweeping their costs under the carpet, which a democratically accountable government can't do nearly so much), and the general inability to commit to a single mission for your space program as you did in the 1960s.

      --
      If we can put a man on the moon, why can't we shoot people for Apollo-related non-sequiturs?
    68. Re:Focus by arth1 · · Score: 1

      Certainly does seem that way. There just seems to be a subculture of Americans, of which Slashdot has more than normal, that love to hate on America. Whatever America does, it's bad. They see the nation in a continually bad light. The flipside of that is usually that they look at other nations with rose coloured glasses. They see only the good, they don't see any down side. The fail to see that there are problems with any nation, as nations are made up of people and we are all flawed.

      Then there are those who see criticism of particular incidents as hatred for the country or its people. In many cases it seems that they dismiss the critique based on this perception. I think it may be part of a cultural propensity for dualism; if you're not 100% behind us, you must be 100% against us.

      For what it's worth, I find that people outside the US are generally good at both pointing out (and even laughing at) idiocy and bad things taking place in not only the US, but any country. The question is whether the American sees that; Swedes bitching about German stupidity might not be something the American is aware of.

      And, to be honest, sensationalism has to be part of the reason too. I doubt that Fox would bother to report when a foreign politician praises something that happened in the US. That doesn't sell as well as when a foreign politician verbally blasts the US for whatever. And neither sells as well as speculation on whether statistics really show that the Boston Celtics has problems with damages this year.

      As for slashdot, a large part of what makes the headlines here are screw-ups, and a large part of those do take place in the US. Partially because it is an American web site open to the world.
      Those who don't like how non-Americans post about us are free to start their own web site that doesn't welcome comments from furriners.

    69. Re:Focus by Lumpy · · Score: 1

      Why deorbit?

      Why not actually build a space station that is useful and then get a "shuttle" in orbit that can go and get the satellite, take it to the service bay on the space station and work on it there.

      Waiting for parts? The FedEx rocket will launch next thursday so be sure to get your order in on monday.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    70. Re:Focus by damburger · · Score: 1

      That is debatable

      When Kennedy made his speech committing the US to go to the moon, the US had been building up a base of rocket science experience for over 15 years - a combination of import German experts and indigenous projects, learning systems management the hard way through repeated explosions.

      For the last 15 years (more in fact) the US has funneled most of its top achievers into the idiotic financial industries and internet start-ups (or White Star Line deckchair management, as I like to think of it). Everyone is conditioned by advertising and education to think primarily of financial rewards, and thus science and engineering have become increasingly unattractive to graduates and those sectors have suffered. I am not having a particular go at the US here - the situation in this regard is considerably worse here in the UK - but it is the US being discussed here.

      Historically there seems to be a gap of at least 15 years between a government starting to take rocketry/spaceflight seriously and them becoming a leader in the field:

      Verein für Raumschiffahrt contracted by German army to develop liquid fueled rockets in 1930, V-2 becomes a viable weapon 1944-1945

      Soviet government started GIRD in 1931, Launched Sputnik in 1957 - total war mobilisation (directing rocket efforts to Katushyas and such) and Korolev being shipped to the Gulag along with several other key people probably contributed to how long this took.

      US basically ignored rockets and laughed at Goddard until the V-2 showed up, they acquired it and von Braun in 1945 but didn't start pulling ahead in the space race until the mid 1960s

      As a counter example, some European countries formed the ELDO (European launcher development organisation) in 1964 without much indigenous expertise; it failed to produce a single functioning rocket before being embarassingly sidelined in 1974. However, in 1979, the first Ariane rocket flew, and the series has gone on to become very successful.

      The point is, you can't just throw money at space when you've not got a science/engineering culture in place that can use it, and expect results. Today is not 1960 - is highly unlikely there is fertile ground for funding to fall on even if there was a political will to return to the moon/go to mars.

      --
      If we can put a man on the moon, why can't we shoot people for Apollo-related non-sequiturs?
    71. Re:Focus by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There just seems to be a subculture of Americans, of which Slashdot has more than normal, that love to hate on America.

      Do you want to know why so many people hate Americans? It's because Americans are so full of themselves that they can't imagine a non-American English speaker.

      So, ZirconCode, from what you say, Americans hate Americans because they only speak English?

    72. Re:Focus by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      we have canceled the Shuttle program

      THAT was the only intelligent thing NASA has done in human space flight in the last 30 years. The false promise of the Shittle is the main reason we are in this mess to begin with. The Shittle destroyed our dreams of what NASA should have been doing from the mid 70s to today.

      F the shuttle

    73. Re:Focus by silentcoder · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Sorry but any country whose citizens routinely describe it as "the best country in the world" while having - as per your own post - exactly ZERO grounds for comparison IS arrogant (to say the least).

      It is also exactly that same uninformed and uncritical nationalism that drives imperialism. It worked for France, then for England and now for you. Ultimately, like everybody else before you the only possible outcome is you eventually getting a major knock back and then discovering you were never all THAT great after all - and like everybody else who made the mistake before you - realizing that nationalism is a stupid philosophy that has in all of human history never been usefull for anything except an excuse for atrocity.
      And believe me I know, the government that committed some of the worst atrocities in the history of my nation were even CALLED the Nationalist Party. For that matter, at risk of Godwin'ing myself, nationalism was a fundamental part of Hitler's philosophy as well...

      Why do you think American nationalism (or patriotism as you prefer to call it- but seriously, the words are exact synonyms) is any different ? Why do you think people in South Africa hear your presidents' (yes, I was using it in the plural possessive so my apostrophe is correct, now shut up grammar nazis) speeches and are strangely reminded of H.F. Verwoerd, B.J. Vorster and P.W. Botha (hell the last one was utterly indistinguishable from G.W. Bush - they even had the same catch-phrase-like finger-in-the-air stance !).
      Because it's the exact same rhetoric. We are the chosen nation of god. The flame of liberty. The free and the fair and everybody else is godless communists and muslims and faggots.

      "We are the true human beings"... how much more tribal can you get ? You don't GET to be called a civilization until you stop thinking like a tribe, and certainly not until you stop being barbarians when it comes to how you treat every other country out there.

      I speak with plenty of self-critique a large part of the current generation here hasn't even learned from the fall of nationalism in my country yet and long for the "Good old days"... but they are dying breed, the majority of us have realized that in embracing people regardless of culture, and making all cultures your own you become a fuller human being with more empathy, and kindness and importantly a more fullfilling life as your experiences in this world is not limited to the narrow scope of one worldview only.

      I'm sorry, but those Americans who decry the situation your country speak from having studied history, and having seen other nations and THEIR histories and want to warn you not to repeat their mistakes. Well... it doesn't look like anybody's listening.

      Wouldn't it be great if, just for once, the most powerful nation around actually learned something from history, and used an approach and attitude toward the rest of the world that was devoid of such arrogance and self-superiority and perhaps didn't have to end up like the previous ones ... perhaps didn't end up hated by every other nation they had any dealings with ?

      My country was never the most powerful in the world but we were and are without a doubt the most powerful on our continent... we've been everybody's love-to-hate, now we're the country everybody else in Africa wishes they lived in (hence the one with the constant flood of illegal immigrants and refugees) - and the single most important element that changed to make this happen was to replace a nationalistic government with an all-embracing one (granted, that is often more true in theory than practise but it's at least a BETTER theory).

      --
      Unicode killed the ASCII-art *
    74. Re:Focus by argStyopa · · Score: 1

      Ironic that you post anonymously. LOL.
      But I'll bite.

      1) If one lives in Monaco, or Germany, or Serbia, traveling to another country is trivial; one might even point out that in some Euro countries, one CAN'T drive an hour in any single direction without traveling internationally. For most of the US, traveling internationally is major exercise. The distance comment doesn't explain Australia, but my answer there would be to ask a question that applies to both Australia and Europe: how much vacation time do you get?

      2) Going to Canada (Montreal aside) is pretty much the same as most of the US (or parts), and frankly speaking the bulk of Mexico is a shathole I wouldn't WANT to visit (again, much like parts of the US). The regional variation within the US is fading, certainly, but the cultural differences between a New Englander, an Oklahoman, and a Californian used to be (language mostly notwithstanding) easily comparable in scope to that of Germans v. Dutch, or Swedes v. Danes. It might also have to do with Americans' lack of roots - I'd guess that most Americans have significantly changed their place of residence, moving more than 100 miles, at least once within the last 5-10 years. Not sure that's true for other cultures, and would directly speak to ones' inclination to 'see other places'.

      And truth-in advertising: I speak 3 languages, have had a passport for 30 years, and have visited 49 states to one degree or another, as well as visiting every country in Western Europe save Portugal, a good handful of E European countries, Japan, Taiwan (only a day), and Singapore. I've worked for a European company now for nearly 18 years, with much of my job being the 'interpretation' of expectations between a Central European multinational and their US customers, despite both sides of the table speaking very fluent english. I think I can speak authoritatively on the characteristic differences between Americans (generally) and Europeans (generally) that I've observed.

      Oh, and by the way, I appreciate your effort to correct my grammar, but I did indeed mean 'provincial' precisely as I used it: http://www.yourdictionary.com/provincial - provincial (pr vinshl, pr-), adjective
      1. of or belonging to a province
      2. having the ways, speech, attitudes, etc. of a certain province
      3. of or like that of rural provinces; countrified; rustic
      4. designating or of a style, esp. of 18th-cent. European furniture, that was characteristic of the provinces and was a simpler and plainer copy of the style characteristic of the capital and cultural centers
      5. narrow; limited; unsophisticated: a provincial outlook

      I might add another definition: 6. assuming that someone else's use of a word in a way one is not familiar with must be inherently wrong without bothering to look it up oneself; subsequently misinterpreting and extrapolating one's assumption, inflating it into a general condemnation of an entire other culture's use of language when it remains one's own failure. ...but that might in fact be parochial.

      --
      -Styopa
    75. Re:Focus by BobMcD · · Score: 1

      Why deorbit?

      Why not actually build a space station that is useful and then get a "shuttle" in orbit that can go and get the satellite, take it to the service bay on the space station and work on it there.

      Waiting for parts? The FedEx rocket will launch next thursday so be sure to get your order in on monday.

      Very this.

      How many of the covered wagons sent West were ever returned to Missouri?

    76. Re:Focus by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      When we do need to send Bruce Willis up to the asteroid to blow it out of the way, we are really going to wish we had a suitable manned space program.

      He'll be fine in one of those South Korean rockets. Trust me.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    77. Re:Focus by BobMcD · · Score: 1

      That's nice. But instead of burning through $200 billion in order to float where lots of other monkeys in tin cans have floated before, why not spend that money developing cheaper methods of getting into space, so that mankind actually stands a snowball's chance in hell of getting offworld in appreciable numbers?

      Probably because going offworld is colossally stupid, for a number of reasons:

      1) This Earth has vast resources, in every way, that we have not figured out how to develop. We can only get at the thinnest of the edge of the crust, for example. There entire continents without a human in sight for hundreds of miles in any direction. There's the floor of the sea, which is almost completely unknown to us. Big place, not yet conquered.

      2) There isn't anywhere else like Earth. Period. And we've looked for such a place using every technology we have. The only destinations we can feasibly reach are less hospitable than all the nasty places on this planet combined. Not to mention the gaps in cost, both fiscal and opportunity, between, say Antartica and the Moon.

      3) Combining 1 and 2 above means that the only places you could go will have less than what you had when you left Earth, be a lower quality of life, and be ridiculously expensive to reach in comparison.

      So, unless you're learning by the endeavor, there's NO POINT in looking towards getting people off the planet. Not until we gain FTL transit, which is a long, long, long way away from where we sit today.

    78. Re:Focus by BobMcD · · Score: 1

      If NASA continues only to accept projects that do not interest the general public they are going to completely lose funding within a few decades.

      Which is sad really, because most of the interesting work is deadly effing dull. NOAA (for just one example) gets that kind of work funded, why can't NASA?

      NOAA gets its funding from fear. The best and oldest source of funding. NASA used to do the same, thanks to Sputnik. Not so much any more.

    79. Re:Focus by BobMcD · · Score: 1

      Sorry but any country whose citizens routinely describe it as "the best country in the world" while having - as per your own post - exactly ZERO grounds for comparison IS arrogant (to say the least).

      If I called my wife the 'most beautiful woman in the world', would I also induce such ire?

      I guess you guys haven't discovered hyperbole yet, but you really ought to look into it.

      Your post goes on to claim that France no longer thinks it is superior to the rest of us. Ditto England. Dude, seriously. France won't even allow the word 'e-mail', and England still has a QUEEN, and we're the backwards barbarians. Bias, bias, bias.

      Because it's the exact same rhetoric. We are the chosen nation of god. The flame of liberty. The free and the fair and everybody else is godless communists and muslims and faggots.

      Now this is close to true. There are a lot of people in my country that feel this way. Though, in the fairest assessment, I'll wager that are a lot in your own as well. Or in China, or Korea, or probably just about every place on the planet. "We are better" is an entirely human emotion that was not invented in the US. Sorry if that cuts back on your hate-fuel, but there it is.

      Wouldn't it be great if, just for once, the most powerful nation around actually learned something from history, and used an approach and attitude toward the rest of the world that was devoid of such arrogance and self-superiority and perhaps didn't have to end up like the previous ones ... perhaps didn't end up hated by every other nation they had any dealings with ?

      Sure it would, but it would also be impossible. You can't be the 'most powerful' without being hated. It simply doesn't work that way, for a whole bevy of reasons that I'm sure you already grasp.

      In that light, no, maybe it wouldn't be so great. After all, we'd be less human that way, and maybe it isn't such a good idea to turn us all into blabbering wussies. Vive la différence!

    80. Re:Focus by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Criticizing and hating are two different things. If you can't see the distinction then I have no issue figuring out which 50% you came from.

    81. Re:Focus by ubermiester · · Score: 1
      Mars Rover? James Webb Tele? X-51? Aurora? And that's just the govt/nasa stuff. How about the private businesses now getting into the act?

      Bashing NASA and the US in general is fun for a while, but it gets old fast.

    82. Re:Focus by sexconker · · Score: 1

      Seems to me that Japan knows how to manage an auto industry.

      Seems to me that the Japanese auto industry doesn't have to pay out ridiculous pensions or health benefits.

    83. Re:Focus by misexistentialist · · Score: 1

      I don't think the USA has ever been that nationalistic. The population is too diverse to be able to consider "American" as a race/religion, and the States still maintain some identity themselves. Granted, we have plenty of bigots who get press because they say outrageous things and we have a lot wealthy people who think they are masters of the universe, but I don't think we have a higher percentage of these people than other countries. And while politicians might give rather outrageous speeches, it's more of a stylistic convention than an actual belief. Humility is rather un-American.

      If Americans do have too inflated an idea of themselves it is a somewhat inevitable result of being a superpower. If it's up to you to make the decisions you have to have a good deal of self-confidence or you are paralyzed with indecision (a state the EU and UN seem to frequently find themselves in).

    84. Re:Focus by melikamp · · Score: 1

      lets face it, we ALL wanted to be as cool as Kirk

      What's is the point? Just to be eclipsed by Jean-Luc Picard?

    85. Re:Focus by RivenAleem · · Score: 1

      I refuse to read this *puts fingers in eyes*

    86. Re:Focus by c6gunner · · Score: 1

      I hear ya. That's also why I oppose any kind of medicine. It's so much more efficient to just make a new human than to fix the ones we have. Where's the benefit? Do you have ANY idea how wasteful it is to train doctors and send them out to treat people?

      It's all good though - one of these days we'll replace the human race with machines, and then we won't have to worry about all these wasteful expenditures. Long Live the Matrix!

    87. Re:Focus by ScientiaPotentiaEst · · Score: 1

      >>Manned spaceflight is impossible to justify on a cost basis.

      CURRENT manned spaceflight is impossible to justify on a cost basis. It seems to me that the effort should be toward lowering the cost. Unfortunately, it currently has the aura of "Buck Rogers" - with test pilot supermen as the default space travelers.

      However, there is hope. With the likes of Rutan, Musk, Bigelow, etc., there appears to be some progress in the realm of lowering costs of human access. Yes, I know Rutan's vehicle is sub-orbital and Musk's Dragon was only just launched. But they're starts. Things move much more quickly when there's a possibility of a buck being made.

    88. Re:Focus by geekoid · · Score: 1

      You would have a point if the shuttle was only used to support the Hubble.

      Your reasoning is weak, to say the least.

      The shuttle provided us with some very valuable advances, and allowed us to to some really cool stuff that expanded what we know we can do in space.

      " Manned spaceflight is impossible to justify on a cost basis"

      See that tells me you don't knw what the hell you are tlaking about. Your too busy listening to some ignorant SOB poo poo ths speace program to actually learn to think fr yourself.

      The American Government has gotten more money from the industries that manned space flight spawned then to has cost.

      Almost all innovation from manned space flight has gone on to be mulit-billion dollar industries.

      Everything you need to develop to get humans someplace and back will have uses here on earth. Whether is a better way to scrub the air, better way to recycle waste, battery batteries, better energy storage, better materials. ALL of it has a use on earth. That means people get paid to make it sell it and people and companies pay taxes.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    89. Re:Focus by mbo42 · · Score: 1

      To start with, I think you are interestingly right, I agree with your point. Why go abroad when nothing draws you, you're at the 'top' so why look elsewhere?. Reverse 'tall poppy' syndrome?. Also, there are a lot of you, so you get a pretty good boost in the identity stakes just from weight of numbers. The bits I think you don't mention (from your tone, I doubt that you were unaware of them) are the things I find really hard to forgive in the U.S. You seem so selfish, you're always 'right'. Very few other western democracies approve of capital punishment, lousy medical care for the non-rich, millionaire only political candidates (and all the problems that creates!), hypocritical foreign policy for decades. I'm sure you're sick of being ragged, but own up to some of the criticism?. You're system is far from perfect, it's just economically powerfull, but often socially behind the rest of us. I'm not rubbishing your average everyday 'Yanks', I just wish you, as a nation, would consider that other western democracies have some ideologies worth considering too? P.S Go the solar sails, whichever Earthlings build them !

    90. Re:Focus by sandmaninator · · Score: 1

      Hate to ensmallen your soul but, you are using a word made up by "The Simpsons" writers without any trace of irony.

    91. Re:Focus by geekoid · · Score: 1

      Space is cheaper it get into then it was when the shuttle started. One of the many ways the Shuttle has advanced space flight.

      That 200 billion isn't burned up. It goes into the economy and gets spent and taxed.

      Millions, if not 100's of millions, of people get clean drinking water as a result of RnD effort to support the shuttle.

      remote control tractors with a margin of error of 1 centimeter are a direct result.

      200billion is a bargain for what we got out of the Space Shuttle., you myopic twit.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    92. Re:Focus by geekoid · · Score: 1

      A) Doing nothing means we will NEVER develop a way to get humans to other planets.

      B) The Earth is ALSO being explored. NASA funds several mission that explore the planet

      C) ALL technologies used to get people off the planet can be used hear on earth to improve the quality of life and explore the planet.

      You have to be a moron not to see the developments that come out of the manned space program. I'm not talking about intangibles here, I am talking about real products being manufactured, sold, and used every days. Products that are taxed along the way.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    93. Re:Focus by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nevermind the fact that NASA is trying to land a rover the size of a mini cooper on mars.

      Mini won't win us the war with Martians. We need to send tanks.

    94. Re:Focus by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ..explore our universe(?) Since when will a solar sail take one beyond our solar system at which point the pressure from neighboring solar systems will pretty much leave them stranded.

    95. Re:Focus by BobMcD · · Score: 1

      You have to be a moron not to see the developments that come out of the manned space program. I'm not talking about intangibles here, I am talking about real products being manufactured, sold, and used every days. Products that are taxed along the way.

      Sure, sure, but these could likewise have come out of the manned Earth program. Sextant, for example.

      Likewise, I think I pretty clearly suggested 'not now' rather than 'not ever'. Get the travel technology done first. Until then it is basically just a science project and/or a theoretical exercise, is it not?

    96. Re:Focus by Overzeetop · · Score: 1

      JPL isn't a NASA facility. CalTech owns and operates under a contract from NASA. There are no NASA engineers doing actual engineering in Pasadena.
      Actually, most of what NASA does today is hand out money. You can "thank" Ronald Reagan for that.

      --
      Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
    97. Re:Focus by hairyfeet · · Score: 1

      Now I will give you that Picard was probably smarter than Kirk, Kirk had him beat by miles in the balls dept. Old Kirk had big brass balls, and spent most of his career bullshitting, bluffing, and just generally using those big brass balls of his to pull off the win. I would say Kirk had bigger balls than the rest, Picard was smarter, Sisko was the best at negotiating, and Janeway was the meanest, especially by the last 2 seasons where she just threw out the rulebook. And how sad is it I'm stuck contemplating Star Trek capts while waiting on the &^%*&^%*& cable company so I can finish moving?

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    98. Re:Focus by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well said.

    99. Re:Focus by silentcoder · · Score: 1

      Right... that's a very thinly veiled call to tradition you got there - a fallacy. It's okay for a sense of superiority because every OTHER superpower did the same when THEY were in power, and a bit of the old naturalistic fallacy just to mix it up "it's human nature"...

      Sorry, they are both fallacies for a reason - they hold NO water in a sensible argument.

      And while it's true that there are those who would hate a superpower simply for being a superpower, you answer my "ALL who deal with them" with this as an excuse ? So you suggest ALL people are like that ? Nobody would like you even if you WERE being good guys ?

      Here's a voice from outside. I was working at university radio during 2001 as a newscaster. I had to read the 9/11 story. It was the most emotional moment of my two year career as a journalist. I felt such sympathy, such enormous empathy with your people. I supported the Afghanistan war DESPITE being a pacifist, I felt it was truly a defensive war... but by the time of the Iraq war I had come to despise your president.
      He made MY life miserable and I didn't even GET the option to vote against him.

      No you're wrong. When the holder of power is benevolent in how they use that power, the majority of people will welcome it. We despise America not for HAVING power, but for ABUSING it.

      And enforcing your way of life onto other cultures IS abusing your power. Assumning it's better is by any kind of reasoning wrong. Quite frankly, my little poor country has a MORE liberal (in the proper sense of the word, not the American political definition) constitution than yours does ! And the greatest power in the land here is NOT the executive government. It's the constitutional court which has the right to
      1) Enforce policy [if certain policy decisions would need to be made in order to follow the constitution]
      2) Require governement to make or abolish laws [if said laws are against the constitution / required to uphold it]

      In my country, do you know what it took to get gay marriage legalized ? One court case. A lesbian couple went to the constitutional court. The court ONLY asked ONE question: are gay people being treated differently ? Answer: yes.
      That violates article one of our constitution which bans discrimination on any grounds, ever.

      Ergo the court FORCED the government to legalize gay marriage. That simple. My poor country, most powerful in it's region but not even IN the G8 globally, actually has a governmental system that gives MORE power to the citizens than yours does because ANYBODY can bring a constitutional court case and thus far, the majority of times - it has been the citizens bringing those cases who have won.
      The same court made nevaripine not only legal but REQUIRED the government to supply it free of charge in state hospitals and to rape victims.

      Your supreme court comes CLOSE to that, but it isn't quite there, it cannot actually FORCE the government to make a law or enact a policy on behest of ANY citizen who has a case.

      Yet YOU are the bastion of freedom ? Hell you could take LESSONS from us. Despite our numerous problems, including corrupt government - we're a freer society than you are. In my home city of Cape Town, individualism is so highly prized that I would say it EXCEEDS America at the time in it's long forgotten history when you called that your greatest value.

      You're not really a Cape Townian until you've done something so completely outrageous that nowhere else in the world (except maybe San Francisco) would it be tolerated, and noticed how nobody even cared. Like ferrying 5 people on a scooter while wearing a wizards robe in the middle of the day in the middle of the busines district... that kind of thing is NORMAL here.

      Why do I tell you this ? To say to you - your assumptions are wrong. Many cultures have entirely moved beyond prescription and self glorification and see that as tribal or barbarian traits and America appears to be stuck in those ancient stupidities. For us... it's lost.

      Another poster a

      --
      Unicode killed the ASCII-art *
    100. Re:Focus by sunspot42 · · Score: 1

      Space is cheaper it get into then it was when the shuttle started. One of the many ways the Shuttle has advanced space flight.

      The Shuttle has literally nothing to do with any decrease in the cost of spaceflight. You can largely thank the Russians for that, and their relatively inexpensive and highly reliable Soyuz and Proton boosters. Also the ESA and their Ariane boosters. The Shuttle has in contrast proven to be one of the most expensive boosters ever produced, draining $200 billion away from R&D which could have been conducted to dramatically lower the cost of access to space.

      That 200 billion isn't burned up. It goes into the economy and gets spent and taxed.

      Well by that logic, we should send the police around to break everybody's windows. Think of all the money that would be injected into the economy from repairing all those windows!

      Millions, if not 100's of millions, of people get clean drinking water as a result of RnD effort to support the shuttle.

      Cite please. And why couldn't that technology have been developed without wasting $200 billion on the Shuttle?

      remote control tractors with a margin of error of 1 centimeter are a direct result.

      Cite, please. I suspect that has more to do with advances in computer technology, which again have literally nothing to do with the Shuttle.

      200billion is a bargain for what we got out of the Space Shuttle., you myopic twit.

      Christ you're an idiot. Please don't breed.

    101. Re:Focus by sunspot42 · · Score: 1

      That's also why I oppose any kind of medicine. It's so much more efficient to just make a new human than to fix the ones we have. Where's the benefit? Do you have ANY idea how wasteful it is to train doctors and send them out to treat people?

      The average physician sees up to 30 patients per-day, at a cost that represents a minuscule fraction of a given patient's lifetime earnings. It doesn't cost $200 billion to deploy one physician to treat one patient.

      Thanks for the stupid analogy, though. At least it's consistent with the rest of your "reasoning".

    102. Re:Focus by sunspot42 · · Score: 1

      You would have a point if the shuttle was only used to support the Hubble.

      Right. So what else has the Shuttle done? Sent some fruit flies into orbit. Launched stuff that could have been launched on cheaper disposable heavy boosters, if we hadn't eliminated that capability as part of an attempt to justify the existence of the Shuttle? Sent astronauts to float around in the ISS, keeping that $100 billion white elephant from falling apart and plunging into the Pacific?

      Quite a record of "accomplishment".

      We could have been more productive with the $300 billion we've pissed away on manned spaceflight over the past three decades by converting it into $1 bills, chucking the money into an incinerator and generating electrical power from the waste heat.

      The shuttle provided us with some very valuable advances

      You keep claiming this. Name them, and provide cites. Explain to us why these same "advances" couldn't have been developed for a hell of a lot less than $200 billion in pork barrel spending.

      and allowed us to to some really cool stuff that expanded what we know we can do in space.

      Like what? They haven't done anything fundamentally different with the Shuttles than the stuff we or the Russians were already doing as far back as the early '70s.

      The American Government has gotten more money from the industries that manned space flight spawned then to has cost.

      Ha! Cite, please. (Good luck with that!)

      Almost all innovation from manned space flight has gone on to be mulit-billion dollar industries.

      Right. "Almost all"?!? Again, how about a cite.

    103. Re:Focus by Eivind+Eklund · · Score: 1

      You're forgetting using the *length* of the fingers to increase counting range. The grandparent is a real man and has a knife.

      --
      Doubting the existence of evolution is like doubting the existence of China: It just shows that you're uninformed.
    104. Re:Focus by c6gunner · · Score: 1

      Awesome, I'm glad we agree! I'll work on dismantling the medical establishments, while you tear down NASA. Let's get started!

    105. Re:Focus by ZirconCode · · Score: 1
      I apologize for the late reply, I was very busy and just read my mails today.

      So to your point, regarding Americans' 'inability to imagine a non-American English speaker', of course they don't generally assume that, it wouldn't make any sense for them to do so in context.

      It would make a lot of sense to a 3rd grader who has just learned that ENGlish is spoken in ENGland and that American was a originally a colony of said country. Unless of course you are suggesting that isolationism is a reason to be uneducated.

      Secondly, what other countries seem to interpret as arrogance appears to be some sort of reverse projected narcissism: "OMG you are so self-centered, you never notice me!"...and if you don't get the irony in that statement, well, then you're hopelessly humorless.

      To suggest that lack of regard equals arrogance is naive, presumptuous, and ultimately self-defeating.

      Yes, I do see irony in that statement, however not the one you intended. It takes immense arrogance to see a person pointing out your arrogance as a case of reverse projected narcissism. Self-Defeating eh?

      To then use THAT as a motivation to generically HATE someone, based on nothing more than their country of origin? I'd call that a self-justifying conceit - dare I call it arrogance? - itself.

      Get over yourself - nobody automagically is entitled to that level of importance; not Americans individually, and certainly not you.

      I never said I hated Americans, I live in Japan as a European person. I simply intended to point out a flawed assumption in the parents post, namely that even those people which hate Americans must all be Americans.

  4. Which force? by icebike · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Centripetal or Centrifugal?

    Spinning creates what is commonly called Centrifugal force, and the tethers of the sails constitute what is generally referred to as the Centripetal force.

    About here is where some physicist jumps up and tells me everything I learned in the past is wrong and I should shut up and sit down.....

    --
    Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    1. Re:Which force? by Fluffeh · · Score: 2, Funny

      About here is where some physicist jumps up and tells me everything I learned in the past is wrong and I should shut up and sit down.....

      Yes. Sit down and shut up. Also, because you didn't pay attention the first time you learned it, I won't waste time explaining it again.

      *smirk*

      *sips coffee*

      --
      Moved to http://soylentnews.org/. You are invited to join us too!
    2. Re:Which force? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      Obligatory xkcd:

      http://xkcd.com/123/

    3. Re:Which force? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      About here is where some physicist jumps up and tells me everything I learned in the past is wrong and I should shut up and sit down.....

      No offense, but it is obvious that you didn't actually learn it. Centrifugal force is what exists when people forget Newton's first law of motion.

    4. Re:Which force? by pluther · · Score: 2, Informative
      You are correct. Centripetal force is the force exerted by the tethers holding the sail to the spacecraft. (Force from the edge towards the middle).

      Centrifugal force is what pulls the sail out. (Force from the middle to the edge.)

      Also, there's no such thing as centrifugal force: as explained by, who else, xkcd

      --
      If the masses can keep you down, you're not the Ubermensch.
    5. Re:Which force? by sammyF70 · · Score: 2, Funny

      What exists when people forget Newton's first law is a Darwin Award contender (possibly with a posthume leading role in the next anti-drug campaign movie).

      --
      "DRM is like the Ford Pinto: it's a smooth ride, right up the point at which it explodes and ruins your day."-C.Doctorow
    6. Re:Which force? by PatPending · · Score: 1

      [Emily Litella]

      What is all this fuss I hear about centipedes being forced out? It's terrible! Centipedes have enough problems as it is!

      [/Emily Litella]

      --
      What one fool can do, another can. (Ancient Simian Proverb)
    7. Re:Which force? by pluther · · Score: 1

      Also, TFA had it right.

      The writer of the summary changed it for some reason.

      --
      If the masses can keep you down, you're not the Ubermensch.
    8. Re:Which force? by blueg3 · · Score: 1

      Or when they insist on using a non-inertial reference frame.

    9. Re:Which force? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, I agree with you actually, centrifugal would have been more appropriate. The real difference is simply the coordinate system. In the inertial coordinate system, the object is rotating, and a centripetal force accelerates a mass toward the center of rotation, in this case it would be the reaction force unfurling the sails. In the rotating coordinate system, the object is stationary, but in order for newtons laws to apply, one has to add two virtual forces, centrifugal and coriolis. That is the easiest coordinate system in which to visualize this sort of operation so I think that would be the appropriate one.

    10. Re:Which force? by random_ID · · Score: 1

      AFAIK Centrifugal force was debunked. It was the "force" that pushes stuff out into a circle when you spin it around (like a rock tied to the end of a string). This is actually just inertia - objects in motion (the rock) try to continue on in a straight line, and the string applies centriPetal force towards the center of the circle - forcing the rock to move in a circle around the center point (your hand).

    11. Re:Which force? by confused+one · · Score: 1
    12. Re:Which force? by Late+Adopter · · Score: 1

      You got it.

      Centrifugal force is the apparent outward force that results from constant acceleration tangent to the circumference of a circle (constant angular acceleration).

      Centripetal force is the real force that counters the apparent centrifugal force, by a tether or a platform.

    13. Re:Which force? by Late+Adopter · · Score: 1

      Negative points for confusing acceleration and velocity in a post meant to explain, sorry. Maybe just go look up wikipedia =P

    14. Re:Which force? by Tetsujin · · Score: 1

      AFAIK Centrifugal force was debunked. It was the "force" that pushes stuff out into a circle when you spin it around (like a rock tied to the end of a string).

      I don't think it's right to say it was "debunked" - we've known how it works since Newton, at least...

      The thing is, it's not really a "force" - it's therefore, arguably, a poor choice of terminology. But in a certain context (i.e. standing on the inside of the colony wall), it seems like a force - and to the extent that this frame of reference is useful, the concept of "centrifugal force" is useful as well.

      --
      Bow-ties are cool.
    15. Re:Which force? by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      Personally, I love it when someone knowledgable (like a physicist talking about physics) corrects me here. That's one of the things I love about the place; there are some intellegent, knowledgeable people who actually outnumber the trolls, dumb kids, and asshats, and sometimes I learn something.

    16. Re:Which force? by SleazyRidr · · Score: 1

      I wouldn't say they outnumber the asshats, but they do tend to get modded up more often. (At least for non-political topics.)

  5. Commence Whining by RobinEggs · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Commence whining about the death of the US Space program, the US falling behind other nations, and how it's all the (Pick one: Obama, Bush, Clinton, Bush Sr.) administration's fault in 3.....2......1....blastoff.

    Don't get me wrong, it's all basically true; it's just tiresome whining to listen to.

    1. Re:Commence Whining by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hard to have it both ways...

      We either catch up by dropping less immediately relevant spending areas (NASA) or keep falling behind in every area except space technology.

    2. Re:Commence Whining by Monkeedude1212 · · Score: 1

      I blame Jack Thompson. If he had pushed just a LITTLE harder against violent video games, none of this would have happened.

      And don't ask how, I hate spelling out every little detail. Figure it out.

    3. Re:Commence Whining by pluther · · Score: 1

      What killed the American space program was not any one administration (let's start with Nixon for that, and include every president since).

      It was the American people themselves, with their apathy, demand to be constantly amused, and lack of imagination.

      We've all heard it:
      "We went to the moon, there's nothing there!"
      "Why spend money in space when there are still problems on Earth that need solutions?!"

      That said, though, NASA, as defunded as they are, are still doing some pretty damn awesome things - just not with manned exploration (or solar sails).

      --
      If the masses can keep you down, you're not the Ubermensch.
    4. Re:Commence Whining by geekoid · · Score: 3, Informative
      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    5. Re:Commence Whining by D+Ninja · · Score: 1

      administration's fault in 3.....2......1....blastoff.

      Won't happen. We don't have any rockets for a successful launch because the U.S. Space program is dying.

    6. Re:Commence Whining by grumpyman · · Score: 1

      X Prize did push this sector from a private angle.

    7. Re:Commence Whining by Nyeerrmm · · Score: 3, Interesting

      It's a common theme -- but I think its a little misguided. It occurs to me that part of the problem is that NASA thinks of Apollo-level funding as the rule rather than the exception.

      Done right, we could do quite a bit with the current Human Spaceflight (HSF) budget. Given that the post-Apollo budget levels are relatively consistent, it seems that current funding level is the politically sustainable level, without external influences (i.e. Cold Wars). If there had been no space race, I can't help but think that NASA would be much better at doing impressive things on the HSF side on their more modest budget.

      $17B is a pretty good chunk of change, and the fact that its been increased despite an across-the-board budget cut on other non-defense discretionary spending shows that there is some significant support for it. We (the space community) tend to think of 1% GDP as the "correct" amount that should be spent on space exploration. Maybe if we get used to the idea that what we have now is closer to normal, we'll be much better off.

    8. Re:Commence Whining by NewsWatcher · · Score: 1

      It occurs to me that it probably shouldn't be up to the US alone to carry the can for global space exploration.

      The International Space Station showed the world can cooperate to push the boundaries in outer space when it is just too damn expensive for any one country to undertake the work unilaterally.

      Perhaps if we earthlings saw ourselves as that, representatives of this planet, rather than citizens aligned to arbitrary markings on a map, we could start to see some real progress being made.

      If the USA, Russia, Japan, Europe and China pitched in and worked in unison, I am betting we would have had earthlings on Mars about the same time the rovers made it there.

      --
      If the pattern goes 9am, 10am, 11am, why isn't noon 12am?
    9. Re:Commence Whining by arth1 · · Score: 1

      Subtract the missions that are already underway, and subtract those that deal with monitoring our own planet, and there's not a lot left.
      The number of planned space missions is rather low, and if we also subtract studies of how external objects could affect Earth, I can't find any.

      It's understandable, though. Where congress once upon a time had Visions, this seems to no longer be the case, and they now want to see a predicted ROI before funding anything. So they may OK projects that deal with Earth, but it's getting harder to get funding for projects dealing with space.

  6. A Victory ... provoking thought by abbynormal+brain · · Score: 1

    Very cool - given the lack of gravity. Definitely a technological win - should lead to other technological advancements. However, with all the "debris" (like micro or larger meteorites) in the solar system (not to mention the outside of our solar system), is this hope for long distance space travel actually practical? Solar sails seem really fragile.

    --
    L'esperienza de questa dolce vita (The experience of this sweet life) - Dante Alighieri, The Divine Comedy
    1. Re:A Victory ... provoking thought by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Lack of gravity? I think you'll find that there is plenty of gravity at the solar sail's location. Some of that gravity is from very far away places!

      I agree it is difficult to unfurl the sail while traveling along a null spacetime geodesic in a vacuum. But the spacetime in which the geodesic lies is curved.

  7. Deploying Pierce Brosnan in 3...2...1 by Firehed · · Score: 3, Funny

    Seriously. If you're going to make a real-life attempt at a Bond plot, at least change the name of your giant solar sail.

    --
    How are sites slashdotted when nobody reads TFAs?
  8. Origami by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm guessing all that origami expertise helped out...

  9. pro skills by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    from now on if anyone asks me who's leading space development, I'm no longer going to say 'well no one really, I guess russia has the best plans going on' to 'fuck yeah JAXA all the way'

  10. warp drive is better by fullgandoo · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    Sailing might be ok from a recreational point of view, but unless we get warp drive, space exploration is a dead end. Speaking figuratively, that is.

    Best we concentrate our energies in that direction.

    1. Re:warp drive is better by Monkeedude1212 · · Score: 1

      Whats wrong with automated space flight with solar sails & Cryogenic sleep chambers? It's worked for Sci-fi movies.

    2. Re:warp drive is better by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Whats wrong with automated space flight with solar sails & Cryogenic sleep chambers? It's worked for Sci-fi movies.

      Brain damage?

      While most of the dogs were fine, a few of the revived dogs had severe nervous and movement coordination damage, causing them to be mentally disabled, and demonstrating behavior that was deemed "zombie" like. This has been pushed further by the media which named them "zombie dogs".[3] There is concern that this technique, if used on humans could result in brain damage similar to those suffered by some of the dogs in the experiment.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suspended_animation

    3. Re:warp drive is better by grimJester · · Score: 1

      Yes. I was going to go to work tomorrow, but I'll stay home concentrating on warp drive.

    4. Re:warp drive is better by istartedi · · Score: 1

      Sailing is OK from a recreational point of view, but unless we get steam engines, looking for a new continent is a dead end.

      What if the warp-drive experiments turn out to be, you know, kind of dangerous? The kinds of things you don't want to do on earth or even in LEO? It would be nice to have a decently fast way of getting out to, oh, say, the Heliopause where you could conduct the experiment safely. Then, if a shower of warp-speed comets don't get propelled out of the Oort Cloud and destroy Humanity, we'll know that warp is safe to operate near the home planet.

      --
      For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
    5. Re:warp drive is better by Nyeerrmm · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Somehow I think it will be easier to get some form of suspended animation working than to develop a functioning FTL drive.

    6. Re:warp drive is better by TooMuchToDo · · Score: 1

      Why not work on both?

    7. Re:warp drive is better by Tetsujin · · Score: 1

      Sailing is OK from a recreational point of view, but unless we get steam engines, looking for a new continent is a dead end.

      What if the warp-drive experiments turn out to be, you know, kind of dangerous? The kinds of things you don't want to do on earth or even in LEO?

      Yeah, the last thing we want is for another fiasco like South Ataria Island...

      --
      Bow-ties are cool.
  11. 1st step in something useful for deep exploration. by hadesan · · Score: 3, Insightful
    One question, how does it stop with no fuel (aka an ability to brake?)

    Also, how well does the membrane hold up to minuscule debris? Is it durable for extended voyages (outer solar system, extra solar)?

    What is the maximum velocity it could reach with the available solar wind prior to it ending at the heliosheath?

    If they could combine it with something to scoop up stellar gas, along with something to process the gas into energy for steering and braking, you would have something useful.

    And please no Uranus comments for my subject line...

  12. There is drag in space by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Actually, there is drag in space. Radiation from the sun will exert a force on your satellite. A solar sail uses the change in photon momentum to accelerate. However, there are second order effects due to thermal heating of your space craft.

    The Yarkovsky effect is due to asymmetric emission of thermal photons in a rotating object. This causes asteroid orbits to change slowly over time.

    The Poynting–Robertson effect is even more obscure, and is due to the fact that the radiation field is not isotropic in a moving bodies frame due to special relativity. This causes dust-sized particles to slowly spiral into the sun.

    Finally, there is the solar wind. This can give a thrust dependent on the size of the magnetic field bubble around an object.

  13. Better Articles! by BJ_Covert_Action · · Score: 5, Informative

    Oh for fuck's sake why do we keep linking to Inhabitat for news on space missions? The Ikaros project is, indeed, a newsworthy and exciting piece of nerd information. However, linking to a stupid environmental blog that holds informational gems like:

    "Solar sails offer the best hope for deep space exploration because they eliminate the need to carry fuel." (Hint: No, they don't. They don't do that at all. You need maneuvering thrusters to align your spacecraft before deployment. You need a power source to provide electricity to power your control motors when you get too far away from the sun. Saying solar sails eliminate the need to carry fuel is like saying that a spoiler eliminates the need for a gas tank on a car because it improves gas mileage. That is a completely asinine statement.)

    And:
    "spacecraft — unlike airplanes — don’t have to contend with drag," (Also untrue. Depending on what orbit/space environment you are in, you may still have to contend with the drag of Earth's atmosphere. If you are deploying in LEO, this could induce a significant moment on your spacecraft. Also, thank you for pointing out the difference between aircraft and spacecraft...that was really weighing on my mind while reading about a spacecraft mission that is proof-of-concepting a new technology).

    And:
    "Of course, aliens aren’t the only reason to want to travel through space without carrying rocket fuel. NASA is also working with solar sails to develop ultra-efficient spacecrafts. " (Aliens and ultra-efficient spacecrafts eh? That's your high-quality independent journalism right there? Give me a break this kind of stupid babbling about a very important mission does nothing but patronize the spacecraft industry and the folks who worked on this particular bird).

    Let me give you a hint Inhabitat readers, if you want to track the progress of an impressive space mission, try going to a news site that actually is focused on space. Maybe you should check out: Centauri Dreams or one of JAXA's own website's regarding the hardwork and impressive design that went into designing this mission. Perhaps you should read and link to some articles that actually contain interesting, relevant, tech-centric discussions of the mission rather than your latest, retarded, three paragraph, juvenile blog whose most interesting mission detail: "....allowing it to launch the .0003-inch-thick sail," borders on painfully irrelevant.

    /endnerdrage

    1. Re:Better Articles! by Oidhche · · Score: 1

      Solar sail still eliminates the most significant part of fuel usage. And it's not something that you'd use in LEO.

    2. Re:Better Articles! by bi$hop · · Score: 1

      Couldn't agree more. I find it ironic that their logo says design will save the world and yet every image in their "slideshow" is a separate freaking page--so the whole damn site has to refresh to show the next image. Could we get some Ajax please? Hell, I'd even take a Flash slideshow.

    3. Re:Better Articles! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      To be quite fair, calling inhabitat an environmental blog is a misnomer as well. They wanted, at one point, to be one, but now they report anything they might find cool, regardless of whether or not it's green. My biggest issue with them is exactly as you said, they lack any scientific (or in some cases basic) logic. I recall them explaining how great this 3d rendering of a grass tunnel is, when in reality, grass is not known for it's ability to grow on the ceiling of a structure, hidden from light...

    4. Re:Better Articles! by MMatessa · · Score: 2, Informative

      I also came here to complain about the poor article. Good coverage comes from the blog of the Planetary Society, which is working on its own solar sail and actually has people visiting JAXA.

    5. Re:Better Articles! by strack · · Score: 1

      nitpick much? you dont need thrusters to correct the orientation, you just turn one corner of the sail away from the sun and bleed the gyroscope speed off on the resulting imbalance of solar sail pressure. and solar panels provide power. no fuel there either. and i think its pretty clear he was talking about it in the context of after its been launched into orbit. i.e. the 'spacecraft' part. which also precludes the atmospheric drag. especially when your talking about interplanetary space.

    6. Re:Better Articles! by BJ_Covert_Action · · Score: 1

      solar panels provide power.

      Solar panels provide less and less power as you move away from the Sun. Once you get past the asteroid belt, and certainly once you get out to the likes of Jupiter and Saturn, they are practically worthless for energy generation. The solar panels that you would have to bring out to produce an appreciable amount of power at those distances would be so large as to make a solar sail nearly useless in propelling your spacecraft. And before you start talking to me about thin-cell, flexible membrane solar cells buttoned onto the back of your solar sail, please consider that such membranes tend to have about 1/3 the lifetime of typical space hardened PV's and about 1/2 the efficiency. This means your going to be toting one massive damn solar sail (which is perfectly feasible, but you start to hit a point of diminishing returns).

      In other words, solar sail technology is best for slowly towing spacecraft back and forth between the inner planets of our solar system. Once you start talking about deep space exploration (beyond the asteroid belt) you need to start packing a better power source and a better means of attitude control (you also must realize that the further you get from the Sun, the less impulse can be imparted on a solar sail from the Sun). So, in the end, yes, this is a useful technology with limited applications. Making bold claims like it eliminating the need for carrying fuel, being the future of deep space exploration, or being one of the driving technologies in future space missions is just damn retarded. That was my point.

  14. life.. by Jorgandar · · Score: 1

    I always thought that it would be NASA that would be the first to announce the discovery of extraterrestrial life. Now i'm thinking Japan may have that honor.

    As a side note, maybe this will spark a new "space race". That would be probably be a good thing at this point.

    1. Re:life.. by DarenN · · Score: 1

      good god, don't let the Japanese have first contact! While I've great respect for the Japanese in general, their fascination with tentacles makes the prospect... tricky

      --
      Rational thought is the only true freedom
    2. Re:life.. by Tetsujin · · Score: 1

      I always thought that it would be NASA that would be the first to announce the discovery of extraterrestrial life. Now i'm thinking Japan may have that honor.

      They have to go somewhere to find new markets for Pokemon merchandise...

      --
      Bow-ties are cool.
  15. Ya! The US has done nothing! by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I mean they most certainly didn't recently deploy two rovers to Mars that WILDLY exceeded expectations. They didn't then also deploy another, fixed, lander which while not as wildly successful exceeded it's planned mission significantly. Nope, none of that happened...

    Oh wait, yes it did.

    Please, while the US space program is not without troubles, it isn't as though it is at a standstill. NASA continues to do some amazing work, and much of it like the landers are pure science, to further our knowledge.

    Stop with the US hate that is so popular on Slashdot. The US is not perfect, no nations is, indeed no human endeavor is. There's plenty to criticize and that includes in the space program. However trying to pretend as though they accomplish nothing of note is silly. Two successful recent Mars missions shows that. No, they weren't manned, neither is this Japanese craft. Putting people in space is dangerous and often not worth the expense. We can learn a lot with remote operated equipment.

    1. Re:Ya! The US has done nothing! by exomondo · · Score: 1

      Stop with the US hate that is so popular on Slashdot.

      oh get over yourself, everyone claims they're persecuted on slashdot. if you've got a problem with it don't be a part of the community.

    2. Re:Ya! The US has done nothing! by geekoid · · Score: 1

      Yes, that's the answer, don't try to fix things, just leave instead.

      Your defeatist attitude is sickening and and show that you are a coward.

      Plus, the irony of you post is rich.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    3. Re:Ya! The US has done nothing! by mbo42 · · Score: 1

      Hey, you guys must be pleased that some other nations are throwing some cash at space research! No?, as long as they don't hide what they learn behind IP Law (Look at the God awful state of genetics research), we all benefit!. This is not a parochial baseball game, this is human knowlwge. I Love 'Erf !

    4. Re:Ya! The US has done nothing! by exomondo · · Score: 1

      Yes, that's the answer, don't try to fix things, just leave instead.

      What are you trying to fix? Every group complains that they are persecuted when they are not, haven't you read enough slashdot to realise this?

      Your defeatist attitude is sickening and and show that you are a coward.

      lol @ coward? scared of what? lol...some internet douchebag like yourself? ooooooooohhhh...

  16. 0.0003-inches ?! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Are you serious? I've lived in Omaha, NE nearly my entire life, and I have no IDEA how thin that actually is. USE METRIC PLZKTHX.

    I don't know if they think it's patriotic or what, but AS sucks, and this is the *world wide* web.

    1. Re:0.0003-inches ?! by SharpFang · · Score: 1

      0.0003 inch = 0.00762 millimetres
      This isn't anything "amazing". It's a thin gauge alufoil.

      --
      45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
    2. Re:0.0003-inches ?! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And the news in question is from Japan, which is a metric country anyway.

    3. Re:0.0003-inches ?! by ArbitraryDescriptor · · Score: 4, Funny

      Seven point six two micron: Full Metal Ja- er, sorry, just 7.62 microns.

    4. Re:0.0003-inches ?! by skastrik · · Score: 1

      Fractions would have been more readable. As in slightly more than 6 / 20736 inches.

    5. Re:0.0003-inches ?! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      to be fair, 0.0003 inches really means nothing to most americans either

    6. Re:0.0003-inches ?! by bmo · · Score: 2, Funny

      You don't know how thick it is?

      If they said .00762mm, you still wouldn't have been able to visualize it anyway.

      This is how you visualize it:

      It's 1/10 the thickness of a human hair. Now get out.

      --
      BMO

  17. Thank you Slashdot. by CrazyJim1 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I want to hear stories like this. I want to know if Solar Sails are viable. Back in highschool I wondered about a space ship propulsion device. My theory was to make particle accelerators to get the maximum propulsion out of hydrogen atoms and fire them out the back of the craft. The problem was you could run out of hydrogen. Its not something serious, but just trying to figure out something better than rockets. The solar sail sounds like it is plausible, and I'll be excited to hear this story develop. The last thing I was excited about was the Mars Rovers. How cool were those.

    1. Re:Thank you Slashdot. by TooMuchToDo · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Why not use magnetic fields to scoop hydrogen from in front of your craft and accelerate them out the back using a particle accelerator/cyclotron. This could be powered via solar near our/other suns, or nuclear RTGs further out. Similar to an ion drive, but without the need to carry the propellant.

    2. Re:Thank you Slashdot. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ion thrusters are extremely similar to CRT's, which wikipedia defines as a "low energy particle accelerator". So the quick answer is yes, it is feasible.

    3. Re:Thank you Slashdot. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Something like a Brussard Ramjet?

    4. Re:Thank you Slashdot. by BJ_Covert_Action · · Score: 1

      If you want to hear more stories about space missions, particularly cutting edge ones, check out some of the following sites:

      Spaceflightnow.com
      Space.com
      The Space Fellowship
      The Planetary Society

      and, of course,

      JAXA
      NASA
      JPL

      There are other sites, but those are some of my favorite.

    5. Re:Thank you Slashdot. by geekoid · · Score: 1

      Hydrogen Density is the issue.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    6. Re:Thank you Slashdot. by TooMuchToDo · · Score: 1

      So, you're stuck either carrying quite a bit of propellant, attempting to find sources along your route to scavenge (asteroids, comets, suitable planetary bodies), or us coming up with some other propulsion method that doesn't rely on propellant ("warp drive" sounds so cheesy, but some method of dragging yourself across the fabric of space). Lovely.

  18. what about micrometeorites by tenverras · · Score: 1

    I'll admit, I wasn't able to read the article yet, but am I the only one who thought of this? Was this covered in the article? With a sail so thin, that would be an easy thing to rip

    1. Re:what about micrometeorites by SharpFang · · Score: 1

      The big surface is to catch maximum amount of light, even far from the Sun. This doesn't need high tensile strength because the forces are minimal. So a micrometeorite will make a hole and...? Nothing. The sail efficiency is reduced by a tiny fraction. The strength applied by light is not nearly high enough to let the rip propagate.

      --
      45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
  19. Re:1st step in something useful for deep explorati by SixAndFiftyThree · · Score: 5, Informative

    How does it stop? If it accelerates tangentially to the Earth's orbit, which is still the most efficient way to get to another planet, then it can decelerate by tilting the sail the other way. In each case, the acceleration vector will have a component outwards from the Sun; the ways to cancel that include furling the sail and waiting for the Sun's gravity to do the job, using a nearby planet's gravity, aerobraking in a nearby planet's atmosphere, or lithobraking. If none of the above work, then perhaps you can't stop. A bizarre scheme that has been suggested would be to bring a second, smaller sail along and use it to collect light reflected from the main sail towards the Sun (you cut the main sail loose and let it drift ahead of you), thus providing reverse thrust until the main sail is too far away. Hard to be sure how well this would work.

    Debris hitting the sail? A few pinholes will make no appreciable difference to its performance. A real sail would have to be made with some sort of "ripstop" reinforcement.

    Max speed? You have a misconception here: solar sails don't use the solar wind (much), but the pressure of the Sun's light. Since e=mc2, momentum equals e/c. I don't have the formula handy, but the important factors are the thickness of the membrane (thinner is better) and how close to the Sun you start (closer is better, provided the membrane doesn't melt). In theory, solar escape speed is attainable, if you're only pulling a small payload. Significant fractions of the speed of light are not attainable.

    Scooping up the gas would need one **** of a scoop!

  20. The Bajorans did it first... by dhavleak · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Lightship Ancient grace and function.

    1. Re:The Bajorans did it first... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That episode was pretty retarded.

  21. say What? by FatdogHaiku · · Score: 1

    ...unlike airplanes — don't have to contend with drag, so with each photon that hits the sail helps the spacecraft gather speed.

    Sorry, but I have complex instruments telling me that not only will there be drag, but that it will increase as the sail recedes from it's current solar power supply. My instruments are my eyes, and they tell me that a lot of the photons arriving here are going the wrong way to propel anything away from earth. You can verify my work by going to an unlit location on a clear night and taking note of all the starlight striking your eyes... Those are the wrong way photons and the weaker our sun shines on the sail, the more those photons will come into play. That said, there is also dust and what not along with small and large fast moving objects any of which can work against or at cross direction to a sail.

    There really is no free lunch...
    But sometimes you can find half price margaritas.

    --
    You have the right to remain sentient. If you give up the right to remain sentient, you will be elected to public office
    1. Re:say What? by blair1q · · Score: 0

      Eff stellar photons.

      Space is full of other things, like gas molecules.

      Luckily, most of them are being emitted by the sun, and at great speed, so this sail will use them to accelerate to their average speed and direction.

      After that, any additional speed gained from bouncing photons off the sail will have to contend with drag from the particles the vessel will then be overtaking.
       
      ...no drag in space...amateurs...

    2. Re:say What? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah thats the problem...

    3. Re:say What? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I so hope your not a physicist because this is such an amateur way of thinking.

    4. Re:say What? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Try looking at the photons going the right way. Oh yeah you will go blind, because it's a lot more of fuckin' photons.

    5. Re:say What? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I was with you at first but then got to thinking that all those 'wrong way' photons are probably balanced out by the 'right way' photons coming from stars on the other side of the sun (coming into your sail from the same direction as the photons from the sun). Can't refute the 'dust and what not' though.

  22. Ah the solar sail... by amightywind · · Score: 1

    The wind turbine generator of space engineering: all the hype, and just as ineffective.

    --
    an ill wind that blows no good
  23. Good F---ing Gracious by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Good god, I think posts like the parent's are just stupid. Do you truly think the Japanese did this all on their own? Was it not for years of research, much of which occurred within the U.S., that this could be possible? Has not the U.S. set the stage of modern space exploration? Did not the U.S. send a robot to Mars to find water? Does not the U.S. have outer space telescopes scanning the universe? And so on?

    Grow up. Although you seem to fail to realize it, the U.S. doesn't always need to be first. The support of the U.S. government lets researchers more or less be able to pick and choose which problems it finds most interesting, which is good, and not be that sniveling kindergardener that needs to be in the front the of the line every time.

    1. Re:Good F---ing Gracious by delinear · · Score: 1

      Well the US and USSR governments can take some of the blame here. In their race to outdo each other, they associated having a strong space programme with being a strong nation, so it's only natural that, when the US announces it's cutting funding for space just as other nations are expanding it, some people will question what that says about the countries themselves.

  24. Solar sails good for inner solar system by syousef · · Score: 1

    Solar sails get less practical the further you go out from the sun due to the inverse square law. Somewhere between Mars and Jupiter is about the accepted limit. Certainly not useable for exploring Uranus and Neptune for instance. You can define "deep space" many ways but inner solar system isn't one of them.

    --
    These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
    1. Re:Solar sails good for inner solar system by blair1q · · Score: 1

      They'd better define it as this side of the oort cloud, because getting through that without powered guidance is a crap-shoot.

    2. Re:Solar sails good for inner solar system by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So accelerate until Mars/Jupiter and coast from there. It's not like rockets can accelerate for that long..

    3. Re:Solar sails good for inner solar system by John+Hasler · · Score: 1

      > They'd better define it as this side of the oort cloud, because getting
      > through that without powered guidance is a crap-shoot.

      The density of material in the Oort is so low that you would have to pass through it thousands of times to have an appreciable risk of hitting anything.

      --
      Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
    4. Re:Solar sails good for inner solar system by syousef · · Score: 1

      You do realise that spacecraft have to make minor corrections to stay on course don't you?

      --
      These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
    5. Re:Solar sails good for inner solar system by blair1q · · Score: 1

      "one in a few thousand" is an unacceptably high risk for something that costs what a space mission costs.

      Every satellite (I think; maybe there are a few dumb ones) has maneuverability and can be commanded to duck debris in Earth's orbit. The density of stuff there is about the order of magnitude of the oort cloud. And putting a satellite in GEO is cheap, compared with sailing to interstellar space.

  25. Re:1st step in something useful for deep explorati by toygeek · · Score: 1

    One question, how does it stop with no fuel (aka an ability to brake?)

    Flip it around at the half way point. Rockets. Solar parachute? That's question 1.

    Also, how well does the membrane hold up to minuscule debris? Is it durable for extended voyages (outer solar system, extra solar)?

    I thought you said you had one question. It would hold up just as well as a sailboats sail would with thousands of micro tiny itsy bitsy holes in it. Just fine, thanks.

    What is the maximum velocity it could reach with the available solar wind prior to it ending at the heliosheath?

    Hmmm this is three questions. I'm beginning to question the validity of your inquiries based on your lack of ability to count. The real answer to your question is yet another question: "Laden or Unladed?"

    If they could combine it with something to scoop up stellar gas, along with something to process the gas into energy for steering and braking, you would have something useful.

    At last, a statement instead of yet another question. A stupid statement, but still an improvement.

    And please no Uranus comments for my subject line...

    You can't say that and not expect one.

    At what point in orbit does Uranus have it's maximum radial velocity?
    At its semi-latus rectum.

  26. Re:1st step in something useful for deep explorati by toygeek · · Score: 1

    Damn typos. UnladeN not unlaDED.

    That'll be a demerit on my geek card.

  27. Re:1st step in something useful for deep explorati by DowdyGoat · · Score: 4, Interesting

    NASA had a proposed "Interstellar Probe" mission that was to use a 200 meter diameter solar sail to travel 200 AU in 15 years (the heliosheath, or edge of the solar system, is about 100 AU from the Sun). It was thought they could keep contact until 400 AUs distance. Link (go to the Interstellar Probe Report link there):

    http://interstellar.jpl.nasa.gov/

    This mission, as well as a proposed follow up mission (I think called Interstellar Probe 2) that would have had a bigger sail, gone twice as fast, and reached around 1000 AU, were both shelved quite a while ago. (There was a single NASA page on that second mission a long time ago, but I cannot find it now.)

    You could use probes like these to sort of act as galactic weather probes, testing the interstellar space that our solar system would encounter in coming decades/centuries and seeing how that "interstellar weather" affects the Sun the the Earth's environment as we pass through it.

    A theoretical improvement on a solar sail would be a "light sail"--you could set up satellites with powerful laser systems orbiting the Sun and use that focused and powerful light to push sails much faster. Some folks have hypothesized reaching 10% to 30% the speed of light using techniques like this if the lasers were powerful enough and coordinated enough. Assuming success, you could possibly send an unmanned probe to Alpha Centauri in a matter of decades. In this instance, you could theoretically use a solar sail to use the solar wind/light of the Alpha Centauri system to slow down once you started nearing it (although that could potentially add more travel time).

    Things like these could be a relatively fast, cheap, and safe (as compared to nuclear) way to explore our external solar system (Kuiper Belt) and nearby interstellar space (Oort Cloud), and get a good handle on how our surrounding interstellar space affects our solar system. Very interesting stuff. I hope more of it happens!

  28. 0.0003-inch-thick? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    0.0003-inch-thick? Come on, this is the 21st century. Measurements in metres (or centimetres, or millimetres, or microns, etc)

    Amazing how America, the country that is so on the pace, so setting the pace, is often so behind in a few key aspects.
    Next you'll be telling me the speed of light in yards per second!

    1. Re: 0.0003-inch-thick? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      the speed of light = 327 857 019 yards per second

    2. Re: 0.0003-inch-thick? by osu-neko · · Score: 1

      0.0003-inch-thick? Come on, this is the 21st century. Measurements in metres (or centimetres, or millimetres, or microns, etc)

      Amazing how America, the country that is so on the pace, so setting the pace, is often so behind in a few key aspects. Next you'll be telling me the speed of light in yards per second!

      There is substantially less benefit from having every nation on earth use the same units of measurement (i.e. speak the same language in terms of measuring things) than there would be from having every nation on earth simply speak the same language, period. As soon as France adopts English as its official language, the United States will adopt the metric system as its official measuring system.

      (Note, I'm not actually suggesting France adopt English. I'm just pointing out the bizarreness of the argument that somehow one nation is "behind" for not adopting the other's way of doing things. It's not "progress" to switch from one arbitrary means of communicating information to another equally arbitrary means, whether it's language in general or just measurements. That says... "Hey, it's the 21st century, people! Speak English for gods' sakes!")

      --
      "Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies."
    3. Re: 0.0003-inch-thick? by Archon-X · · Score: 1

      This is why SI exists.

    4. Re: 0.0003-inch-thick? by Tetsujin · · Score: 1

      the speed of light = 1.72435995 × 10^15 cubits per month

      --
      Bow-ties are cool.
    5. Re: 0.0003-inch-thick? by dwye · · Score: 1
      Which month? February, June, or August? And whose cubit? By one cubit, Goliath was 9 ft tall; by another, a very reasonable 6ft 9 inches.

      Seriously, use proper units. How many furlongs per fortnight?

    6. Re: 0.0003-inch-thick? by Tetsujin · · Score: 1

      Which month? February, June, or August? And whose cubit? By one cubit, Goliath was 9 ft tall; by another, a very reasonable 6ft 9 inches.

      Seriously, use proper units. How many furlongs per fortnight?

      furlongs per fortnight is old hat, IMO. I decided to leave it to someone else to do that one.

      It's common practice to use a 30-day month when counting time in "months" without a specific frame of reference. (But, yeah, I know actual months aren't all the same length - so going beyond three significant digits was pretty silly... but that was half the fun of choosing "months" in the first place...)

      As for the cubit - I'm using the Roman version. :)

      How about atomic units? It always seemed to me that if there was a better basis for "standard" than metric, it would be atomic units...

      the speed of light = 137.0359991059 Bohr Radii * Hartree Energy per Reduced Planck's Constant

      --
      Bow-ties are cool.
    7. Re: 0.0003-inch-thick? by Tetsujin · · Score: 1

      Or I guess you could be all boring and say:

      the speed of light = 1 Planck Length / Planck Time

      --
      Bow-ties are cool.
  29. Re:1st step in something useful for deep explorati by blueg3 · · Score: 5, Funny

    Lithobraking is an ingenious term for "fuck it, we'll just crash into the planet".

  30. Re:1st step in something useful for deep explorati by SixAndFiftyThree · · Score: 1

    I forgot to say that, almost by definition, a solar sail is not very useful when you are far from the sun: the inverse square law works against you. Neither sunlight from behind you nor starlight from in front of you provides much thrust.

    Even when you are near Earth orbit, sheer scale is a big problem. To propel a small spacecraft at useful acceleration, you need a sail the size of a small town (and I live in the USA, where small towns are not very small spatially). The sail also has to be very thin in order to save mass, perhaps a hundredth the thickness of the Japanese sail, so handling and controlling it will be tricky, as Clarke points out in _The Wind From The Sun_. He envisages the sail as one or a few huge panels; I wonder if many small panels would be easier, both to use and to manufacture. Oh, there are lots of problems to solve. And then you wouldn't (notwithstanding Clarke) use the sail for anything shorter than a trip to Mars.

    Somebody will probably point out that if you could focus all the sunlight that falls on a small town, you could make a hostile spacecraft very uncomfortable, though you couldn't get them any hotter than the surface of the Sun.

  31. Space has "drag" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The entire Solar System exists because of the Sun's gravity well. I doubt a Solar Sail could overcome the Sun's gravity well and explore interstellar space but IANA Physicist

    1. Re:Space has "drag" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The solar sail isn't the only force, it's just one that can be used over a longer period of time.

  32. Re:1st step in something useful for deep explorati by ArbitraryDescriptor · · Score: 1

    You could make a hostile spacecraft very uncomfortable, though you couldn't get them any hotter than the surface of the Sun.

    Not good enough! *activates trap door to shark pit*
    Send in the next scientist!

  33. hmm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ITs not the first deployed one. Its the first usable one in space. Russia deployed one when mir was still up in space.

  34. Anybody else notice the fake photo ? by boogahboogah · · Score: 2, Informative

    Looking at the photos in the referenced article, the fourth picture, showing the solar sail fully extended with all kinds of nice wonderful colors (photo from a perpendicular angle) cannot have been shot from the same camera as the other photos. Different color saturation, different focus, different depth, different starfield luminosity, a rather idealized picture of the earth. Offhand, I think this is an artistic or fictional or Photochop representation, and, it is not labeled as such.

    It's nice that the Japanese have launched a sail, but that hoked up photo just killed it for me.

    1. Re:Anybody else notice the fake photo ? by osu-neko · · Score: 1

      Captain Obvious to the rescue! XD

      You'll also notice that the second planetary body in the picture (why you're calling it a "photo" when it clearly isn't, I'm not sure) is not the moon...

      --
      "Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies."
    2. Re:Anybody else notice the fake photo ? by T.Sawamoto · · Score: 1

      No, that is not a fake photo. That is a artist's image for commentary of IKAROS. The image was drawn before launching IKAROS. You can see it in the commentary page of IKAROS.

      If you want a real photo, see the press release.(Japanese language)

    3. Re:Anybody else notice the fake photo ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's a space station?

  35. Patent Time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They should patent it so the US can never explore space.

    1. Re:Patent Time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I do believe we learned in Armageddon that patents don't apply in space. DUH.

    2. Re:Patent Time by rossdee · · Score: 2, Informative

      Prior art:

      The Wind from the sun - Arthur C Clarke
      The Mote in God's Eye - Niven/Pournelle
      The Flight of the Dragonfly - Robert L Forward

      Not to mention an episode of DS9 where Sisko recreates a Bajoran solar sail.

    3. Re:Patent Time by geekoid · · Score: 1

      None of that is prior art. You. like most people on /., have no idea what prior art means in this context.

      Saying "We deploy a sail to travel through space is a lot different then developing bad building one.

      Prior art is based on wild ass ideas people have. It's based on function devices.

      If I said "We will travel through space using FTL", doesn't mean I have prior art on build FTL drives.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  36. Re:1st step in something useful for deep explorati by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Deep exploration... INTO URANUS!

    A HAW HAW HAW HAW!!!!

    Now to read the actual post...

  37. Oblig. Commander Hoek and Stimpy ref by RevWaldo · · Score: 1

    "Man, it's a good thing that planet was there, or we never would have stopped!"
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4iiEj1lAhM

    .

  38. Re:1st step in something useful for deep explorati by Chris+Gunn · · Score: 0

    How does it stop? If it accelerates tangentially to the Earth's orbit, which is still the most efficient way to get to another planet, then it can decelerate by tilting the sail the other way. In each case, the acceleration vector will have a component outwards from the Sun;

    As the photons are reflected, and not just absorbed, angling the sail will give you thrust at another angle. Also, until you attain escape velocity, turning the sail to 90 deg will decelerate you to 0 eventually. As I understand it, any orbit should be attainable.

  39. Re:1st step in something useful for deep explorati by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    One question, how does it stop with no fuel (aka an ability to brake?)

    You can use the sun's gravity to slow down, if you angle the sail so that it reduces your orbital velocity around the sun. But you probably wouldn't bother - just do a flyby of the planet you're looking at, then keep going to the next one.

    Also, how well does the membrane hold up to minuscule debris? Is it durable for extended voyages (outer solar system, extra solar)?

    At these velocities, minuscule debris makes tiny holes in the sail. So you lose 0.001% of your sail area. Not a big deal.

    What is the maximum velocity it could reach with the available solar wind prior to it ending at the heliosheath?

    You've got a misconception here. The solar wind is a stream of charged particles emitted by the sun - and solar sails don't use it. Instead, they use sunlight. So they can keep accelerating so long as the sun is brighter than the stars in front of them.

  40. A mistake of Clarke's? by Chris+Gunn · · Score: 0
    From what I remember of, I think it was his books, he assumed that the Vacuum of interstellar space would be harder (less gas), enabling higher speeds with solar-sails/ram scoops (Asimov?).

    The opposite is true however.

  41. details, details by v1 · · Score: 1

    have to contend with drag, so with each photon that hits the sail helps the spacecraft gather speed."

    Only a very novice astrophysicist would ignore the fact that such a large sail is going to plow through dust too. And how many photons do you think it will take to counter the effects of even a small grain of dust, when the dust is stationary and you're clipping along at hundreds of km/sec? (or vice-versa for that matter - you could quite conceivably get hit by a spec of dust traveling at some fraction of c)

    Space is a rough environment. Long-haul long-term propulsion that these sails target is going to end up like a butterfly went through a tornado too.

    Slim odds you say? At least one probe we've gone planet-hopping with has been hit by a small asteroid, enough to knock its orientation off for a bit before it (thankfully) managed to correct itself. It's a big place, but when you're traveling for a number of years, at an ever growing rate of speed, the odds start catching up with you.

    --
    I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.
    1. Re:details, details by osu-neko · · Score: 1

      Slim odds you say? At least one probe we've gone planet-hopping with has been hit by a small asteroid, enough to knock its orientation off for a bit before it (thankfully) managed to correct itself. It's a big place, but when you're traveling for a number of years, at an ever growing rate of speed, the odds start catching up with you.

      I wouldn't say slim odds. The larger you make the sail, the more likely it is some rock is gonna hit it. Any significant sail used for any significant time is going to get hit many times. And the effect will be... unnoticeable. Oddly enough, when you have a few square kilometers of surface area, a hole the size of a tiny pebble subtracts a very tiny percentage of your operational surface area. And sunlight is not known for its ability to rip things apart once they develop a small tear or hole.

      --
      "Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies."
    2. Re:details, details by geekoid · · Score: 1

      Your right, we should all hide under our beds because something might happen, something happened to some other person once.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  42. Centrifugal, not centripetal by Geoffrey.landis · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    What, nobody's posted the obligatory xkcd reference yet?

    Oh, wait--

    --
    http://www.geoffreylandis.com
  43. Debris- not a problem [Re:A Victory ...] by Geoffrey.landis · · Score: 1

    However, with all the "debris" (like micro or larger meteorites) in the solar system (not to mention the outside of our solar system), is this hope for long distance space travel actually practical? Solar sails seem really fragile.

    Turns out debris and micrometeoroid hits are almost irrelevant to sails-- they basically poke small holes in the sail, but the area removed is not enough to make a difference.

    --
    http://www.geoffreylandis.com
  44. We know what this is really about... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Next up, they will figure out how to use this to kill more whales. For research.

  45. Faster than solar wind by ProfessionalCookie · · Score: 1

    The question I have is, like conventional sail vehicles, is it possible for the sailcraft to go faster than the solar wind?

    1. Re:Faster than solar wind by wolfv · · Score: 1

      as conventionally understood based on past science there is nothing that can travel faster then the speed of light (ie the wind) that is not sub atomic.

    2. Re:Faster than solar wind by ProfessionalCookie · · Score: 1

      as conventionally understood, woosh ;)

  46. Solar sails. Huh. That's nothing. by fyngyrz · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The ship in Poul Andersen's The Makeshift Rocket uses beer for propellant.

    You can't top that. You're always on the right heading, see? Heading froth into the stars!

    Solar sails, indeed. [sniff!]

    --
    I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
  47. This was highly expected... by broknstrngz · · Score: 1

    ... from the creators of Sailor Moon.

  48. The Voyager by Ivan+Stepaniuk · · Score: 1

    Somebody is forgetting about one of the most successful space program ever. Worse than not learning from our mistakes is not learning from our success.

    --
    My other signature is a car
  49. You sure about tilting the sail? by IRoll11!s · · Score: 1

    OK so IANAS (sailor...) but I thought the ability to tack against the wind was due to the interaction between the hull/rudder and the water. There's nothing to um, grab onto in space, so I can't see how you can get any impulse in any direction other than directly away from the sun?

    1. Re:You sure about tilting the sail? by TheTurtlesMoves · · Score: 1

      Mirrors reflect light-light is momentum. You control the direction of the reflected light.

      Detailed solar sail trajectories are around the internet. My favorite is the H-reversal sun flyby trajectory.

      --
      The Grey Goo disaster happened 3 billion years ago. This rock is covered in self replicating machines!
    2. Re:You sure about tilting the sail? by radtea · · Score: 1

      There's nothing to um, grab onto in space, so I can't see how you can get any impulse in any direction other than directly away from the sun?

      Gravity. Solar sails in orbit can use the sun's gravity in exactly the same way a sailboat uses a keel, and therefore can be made to move in any direction.

      --
      Blasphemy is a human right. Blasphemophobia kills.
  50. Re:1st step in something useful for deep explorati by fredrik70 · · Score: 1

    Somebody will probably point out that if you could focus all the sunlight that falls on a small town, you could make a hostile spacecraft very uncomfortable, though you couldn't get them any hotter than the surface of the Sun.

    Hmmm , reminds me of the book "The Mote in GOd's eye", where there is a ship with a solar sail using the sail to focus beams of light as a defence mechanism on another ship trying to investigate it.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mote_in_God's_Eye

    --
    if (!signature) { throw std::runtime_error("No sig!"); }
  51. Grrr... by yoshi_mon · · Score: 1

    ...allowing it to launch the 0.0003-inch-thick sail.

    Can't we at least get our science stories to use the metric system? Come on!

    --

    Really, I know what I'm doing...Ohhhh, look at the shiny buttons!
  52. OT: spoonerisms in my brain by thePowerOfGrayskull · · Score: 1

    No, we're an ex jock with a coke problem they are still in denial about.

    Anyone else read that as "an ex-cock with a joke problem", and trying to figure out how exactly that would work?

  53. Re:1st step in something useful for deep explorati by Chardish · · Score: 1

    Debris isn't really something that the engineers need to worry about. Space is very, very empty - I read something once about how if you took all the matter in the known universe and evenly distributed it throughout the volume of the known universe, it'd work out to something like one hydrogen atom per cubic kilometer. If you launch something out of orbit, the odds of it striking another object in your lifetime are virtually nil, even objects of microscopic size.

  54. ass-to-mouth grafting by Tetsujin · · Score: 1

    [Emily Litella]

    What is all this fuss I hear about centipedes being forced out? It's terrible! Centipedes have enough problems as it is!

    [/Emily Litella]

    Especially the human ones...

    --
    Bow-ties are cool.
  55. Re:1st step in something useful for deep explorati by khallow · · Score: 1

    NASA had a proposed "Interstellar Probe" mission that was to use a 200 meter diameter solar sail to travel 200 AU in 15 years (the heliosheath, or edge of the solar system, is about 100 AU from the Sun). It was thought they could keep contact until 400 AUs distance.

    That's interesting. When I had first read of the project, they were proposing radiothermal generators and electric propulsion. There's more than one way to skin a cat.

  56. Lithobraking by Tetsujin · · Score: 1

    Lithobraking is an ingenious term for "fuck it, we'll just crash into the planet".

    Hey, it worked for the Saiyans...

    --
    Bow-ties are cool.
  57. Not True! by DarthVain · · Score: 1

    It's because they are stupid and ugly.

    Just Kidding! :) Please don't liberate me!

  58. Re:1st step in something useful for deep explorati by RivenAleem · · Score: 1

    If none of the above work, then perhaps you can't stop.

    From the country that brought you Toyota

    (oh no, I didn't just go there...)

  59. Two words: by copponex · · Score: 2, Funny

    Ron Jeremy.

    1. Re:Two words: by thePowerOfGrayskull · · Score: 1

      Ouch - walked right into that one.

  60. Re: Obligatory xkcd: by Dr.+Zed · · Score: 1

    Obligatory HTML:

    http://xkcd.com/123/

  61. Re:1st step in something useful for deep explorati by BJ_Covert_Action · · Score: 1

    As an addendum to this, NASA already has, or is currently planning (I can't recall) a solar sail project involving a cubesat and (IIRC) a 40 m^2 solar sail. I'll leave the googling for that mission up to the user.

  62. Pierre Boule's "Monkey Planet" by danielpauldavis · · Score: 1

    Begins and ends with a couple solar sailing around the solar system (at the end, he wraps all four of his hairy limbs around her in an affectionate embrace.) This was some decades ago; prescient, wasn't he?

    --
    Cranky educator.
  63. Re:1st step in something useful for deep explorati by mdielmann · · Score: 1

    Sci-fi authors, such as Robert Forward, have discussed the theories about this for a while. If you're in a gravity well, you are in a similar position to a sailing vessel. Gravity gives one constant acceleration vector, and the sail is the other. By tuning your sail (rotating in one direction or the other), you can get lateral motion (the angular momentum is based on the relative energies of the photon impacting and the photon leaving, and the difference in direction of those two photons). To 'furl' your sail, and leave the only force acting on your vessel being gravity, you just turn your sail perpendicular to the sun.

    Of course, if you aren't in a gravity well, you probably aren't getting much light, either, and the next step is to wait til you get to a new gravity well (which will probably also have light for braking).

    Also, if you're going to disparage the work of sci-fi authors such as Robert Forward, check their bios first. Forward has a doctorate in physics, and consulted for NASA. Knowledgeable sci-fi- authors are some of the best people to explain leading-edge science.

    --
    Sure I'm paranoid, but am I paranoid enough?
  64. Must be stopped: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Solar Pirates! Enough said.

  65. Re: nationalism by tqk · · Score: 0

    You must be one of the jocks if your competitive side makes you grow nationalistic feelings ...

    Agree. However, it's doubtful we'll ever get over nationalism. The best we've come up with so far to replace it are MLB, NFL, FIFA, ... Go Uruguay.

    --
    "Tongue tied and twisted, just an Earth bound misfit ..." -- Pink Floyd.
  66. What by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    No Crazy Eddie tag?