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New Air Conditioner Process Cuts Energy Use 50-90%

necro81 writes "The US National Renewable Energy Laboratory has announced that it has developed a new method for air conditioning that reduces energy use by 50-90%. The DEVap system (Desiccant-Enhanced eVaporative air conditioner) cools air using evaporative cooling, which is not new, but combines the process with a liquid dessicant for pulling the water vapor out of the cooled air stream. The liquid dessicant, a very strong aqueous solution of lithium chloride or sodium chloride, is separated from the air stream by a permeable hydrophobic membrane. Heat is later used to evaporate water vapor back out — heat that can come from a variety of sources such as solar or natural gas. The dessicants are, compared to typical refrigerants like HCFCs, relatively benign on the environment."

445 comments

  1. Death by poisoning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If legionnaires doesn't get you the sulphur chloride mix surely will.

    1. Re:Death by poisoning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Considering that they don't use that as a dessicant, and more typically a Calcium Chloride solution, nice try on a first post. It's no surprise you posted anon- I'd put a paper bag over my head with me getting it that wrong.

      Oh, and Legionaires' wouldn't be able to survive in the water/dessicant mix at the end of the system that's used to dry it out.

    2. Re:Death by poisoning by cayenne8 · · Score: 1
      Who cares?

      As long as it pumps out cold air, and lowers the cost a bit. I live in New Orleans, and my AC pretty much runs on full from end of March through about the first of November. You have to....

      I've already resigned myself to sign over half my paycheck this time of year to Entergy. Any help on that greatly appreciated.

      Man, I look at those old pictures of people in the days before AC living in NOLA and wonder how the hell they did anything down here? I mean, first, they are all dressed from head to toe on hot summer days, most work was still outdoors...how did they do it without dying of heatstroke and smelling horrible all the time?

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    3. Re:Death by poisoning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      and lowers the cost a bit

      No no no you can't let the envirowackos have a victory! Go out and burn some tires now to make it even!

    4. Re:Death by poisoning by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 1

      > The dessicants are, compared to typical refrigerants like HCFCs, relatively
      > benign on the environment

      Correction. The dessicants are relatively benign on the super-high level atmosphere compared to HCFCs, which are nigh infinitely safe to biology.

      How do the dessicants fare when they leak out into someone's house?

      --
      (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
  2. Well... by Errol+backfiring · · Score: 4, Funny

    It's cheaper than using trained hydrophobes. Or are they used to create the membrane?

    --
    Nae king! Nae laird! Nae yurrupiean pressedent! We willna be fooled again!
    1. Re:Well... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't think they get the dessicant from wells. Not sure why you mentioned a well.

    2. Re:Well... by SharpFang · · Score: 1

      I'm pretty sure they don't get the hydrophobe-based dessicant from Wells. From Pratchett maybe...

      --
      45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
    3. Re:Well... by elrous0 · · Score: 4, Funny

      I'm just worried that some of that sodium chloride will end up polluting our oceans and in our food.

      --
      SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    4. Re:Well... by MrNiceguy_KS · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      He's even got another Pratchett quote in his sig.

      --
      Redundancy is good And also good.
    5. Re:Well... by EvilRyry · · Score: 4, Informative
      The article never mentions sodium chloride, I though that sounded a bit off when I read the summary.

      The kind NREL uses are syrupy liquids — highly concentrated aqueous salt solutions of lithium chloride or calcium chloride.

    6. Re:Well... by gsgriffin · · Score: 1

      I'm more worried about the Dihyrda-Oxide that they are purposely putting back into the air. What are they thinking! Environmentalists will certainly sound the alarm on this!

      --
      jsut athnoer menagiensls ltitle psrhae for you to dcoede. Why do we wtsae our tmie dnoig tihs?
    7. Re:Well... by elrous0 · · Score: 2, Funny

      Seems like everything you eat these days is just *loaded* with these kinds of chemicals. That just can't be healthy.

      --
      SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    8. Re:Well... by atrain728 · · Score: 1

      It is earth's most active greenhouse gas, after all! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenhouse_gas#Role_of_water_vapor

    9. Re:Well... by mcgrew · · Score: 2, Informative

      It won't work where I live. Evaporative cooling only works in areas where there's little humidity; they've used "swamp coolers" as they're called in Arizona for decades, and although this method seems more efficient than the old swamp coolers, it still won't be enough. Your normal AC both cools and lowers humidity, and it won't work for the same reason sweating won't cool you off in a humid place; when the air is saturated with water, it's hard to make it evaporate. Hang laundry out here in the summer and it takes forever to dry. Same principle. Plus, the drier air feels cooler than the same temperature at high humidity.

    10. Re:Well... by jo_ham · · Score: 1

      If you boil a salt solution, you are going to push water out of it (and thus re concentrate it) regardless of how humid it is. I assume pans of water on your stove still boil where you live? It will require more energy though.

      From my understanding here, it's a two step process - chemically dehydrating the air, then boiling/heating the resulting diluted salt solution to drive off some of the water.

    11. Re:Well... by davester666 · · Score: 1

      Don't tell me they've started adding these new-fangled chemicals like Dihydra-Oxide to our drinking water.

      --
      Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
    12. Re:Well... by superdave80 · · Score: 1

      I'm more worried about dihydrogen oxide getting into our water supplies.

    13. Re:Well... by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      Not to mention all the dihydrogen oxide. That stuff will kill you -- people die from it every day.

    14. Re:Well... by TemporalBeing · · Score: 1

      It's cheaper than using trained hydrophobes. Or are they used to create the membrane?

      What do witches have to do with it? They're about as hydrophobic as you can get, no?

      --
      Truth is like the sun. You can shut it out for a time, but it ain't goin' away. - Elvis Presley (source: imdb.com)
    15. Re:Well... by Gr8Apes · · Score: 1

      RTFA, "The membranes in the DEVap A/C are hydrophobic, which means water tends to bead up rather than soak through the membranes... keeps the water and the desiccant separated from the air stream"

      --
      The cesspool just got a check and balance.
    16. Re:Well... by Slime-dogg · · Score: 1

      They just have to apply the dessicant in a "first pass" before passing it over water. That will dry the air out.

      --
      You need to restart your computer. Hold down the Power button for several seconds or press the Restart button.
    17. Re:Well... by gravis777 · · Score: 1

      I was thinking the same thing - this sounded a lot like a swamp cooler. Worthless in 2/3rds of Texas. Otherwise I would jump on this - would love to see my summer electric bills match my winter electric bills (gas heating!).

    18. Re:Well... by Khashishi · · Score: 1

      Evaporative cooling won't work by itself, but that's where the dessicant factors in. The dessicant will bring the humidity down well below 100%, and then evaporative cooling will work wherever you live. Of course, drying out the dessicant will be harder, but it won't be impossible.

    19. Re:Well... by StikyPad · · Score: 1

      High sodium intake is a contributing factor in High Blood Pressure, which affects 1 in 3 Americans. So no.. it's not healthy.

    20. Re:Well... by MobileTatsu-NJG · · Score: 1

      I'm just worried that some of that sodium chloride will end up polluting our oceans and in our food.

      It's easy to imagine that half the people that laughed at this ruined it by snorting.

      --

      "I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)

    21. Re:Well... by jo_ham · · Score: 1

      Well, if they already have separated water, then there's no need to worry about how humid it is - just collect it and dispose of it.

      My understanding of a chemical desiccant is that it will become more dilute over time, and require recharging by removal of water (or addition of more solute).

    22. Re:Well... by Bigjeff5 · · Score: 1

      I'm sure sodium chloride could be used though. I'm not sure what it's efficacy is compared to these other salts, but any sort of brine solution is a liquid desiccant.

      --
      Security is mostly a superstition... Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. - Helen Keller
    23. Re:Well... by w0mprat · · Score: 1

      Food even can contain high levels of dihydrogen monoxide. Which can kill you if inhaled.

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      After logging in slashdot still does not take you back to the page you were on. It's been that way for 20 years.
    24. Re:Well... by w0mprat · · Score: 2, Informative

      I think you misunderstood the mechanism here. I do believe that absortion of H2O by NaCL is an endothermic reaction, thus a cooling effect. You can then recycle the solution by extract moisture with heat somehow.

      The cooler is two stage, the air is first highly humidified (if not too humid already), lowering it's temperature, the second stage the endothermic effect cools it further. This would work in a humid environment and indeed allows control of humidity outlet.

      --
      After logging in slashdot still does not take you back to the page you were on. It's been that way for 20 years.
    25. Re:Well... by Oxford_Comma_Lover · · Score: 1

      Table salt is sometimes calcium chloride. Maybe a submitter got confused about equivalence classes.

      --
      -- IANAL, this isn't legal advice, and definitely isn't legal advice for you. Also, Squee!
    26. Re:Well... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The liquid desiccant, a very strong aqueous solution of lithium chloride or sodium chloride, is separated from the air stream by a permeable hydrophobic membrane.

      Maybe the article didn't mention it but the summary did

    27. Re:Well... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      aaa
      it is already over polluted with natrium chloride

      so, new air conditioners will be available in Dacotas and Oklahoma

    28. Re:Well... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      hehe, yeah that'd be absolutely tragic... :P

  3. OK, so when can we buy one? by CAIMLAS · · Score: 4, Insightful

    So when will we be able to buy one of these? I know my wife is going to be asking for an AC in the house this summer, and I'm sure that the people in places like AZ, NM, and TX will be clamoring to lower their electric bill.

    Additionally, will the dessicants (or the filter) have a recycle lifespan, or will it be more like a traditional household AC, using a 'simple' radiator device?

    --
    ~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
    1. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      I know my wife is going to be asking for an AC in the house this summer

      Really? Another one? I've been visiting her for months.

    2. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Me too!

    3. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So *that* is the reason there was a long queue on CAIMLAS' house uh?

    4. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by stonewallred · · Score: 4, Informative

      AZ and NM use a lot of swamp coolers if they can't afford AC. With 100 degree 0% RH, a swamp coolers does a decent job.

    5. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's why I started using the back door. So to speak.

    6. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      Vaporware...

      (My apologies if these people actually have a viable consumer product with at least a 50% improvement in efficiency. Big numbers like that usually mean that something is decades away from consumer applications.)

    7. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I already seemed to notice the backdoors' entrance was a bit forced..

    8. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      From that statement I assume you do not have one or have ever used one for more than a recreational cooler. Electroic instruments don't like the environment they create either.

    9. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by Lumpy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      People in those climates would do well to force the builder to actually build the home right. Heat chimneys and long overhangs coupled with highly insulated homes and thermal masses would do a LOT to cool the home with very little cost.

      Problem is most homes are built wrong. the same damn cookie cutter McMansions that are designed by idiot architects.

      get a 20 SEER rating AC unit and you will have the most efficient you can get today... it's only a couple grand more than a standard AC unit.

      Oh and insulate your home, replace your windows with triple pane and low-e glass, and get rid of all air leaks.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    10. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yea... unfortunately, swamp coolers don't cut it here in Houston due to the humidity. A shame, since my electricity bill goes from $100 in April to about $350 in August for a 1900 sq ft home...

    11. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by Hognoxious · · Score: 3, Funny

      Oh and insulate your home, replace your windows with triple pane and low-e glass, and get rid of all air leaks.

      Indeed. I would highly recommend that you seal your house 100% hermetically.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    12. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by DigiShaman · · Score: 1

      Except this method won't work well in places like Houston, TX. The air is already saturated with moisture making it very hot and humid. Places like AZ however would be perfect.

      --
      Life is not for the lazy.
    13. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by drinkypoo · · Score: 2

      Problem is most homes are built wrong. the same damn cookie cutter McMansions that are designed by idiot architects.
      [...]
      Oh and insulate your home, replace your windows with triple pane and low-e glass, and get rid of all air leaks.

      Problem is, your way of building homes is wrong. If you aim your house south (or north, in the southern hemisphere) and use high-E glass and proper overhangs, you get heat in the winter and cool in the summer. If you live where you never need heat then "proper overhangs" means that they never let the sun shine in directly. Using low-E glass traps heat in the summer.

      There are numerous other things that can be done to improve heating and cooling efficiency, for example cooling towers for ventilation, or simply burying metal ducting in the earth to a depth of five feet, which in most of the world produces stable 50 degree temperatures. Running intake air through these ducts and allowing it to flow out of the top of the house can provide cooling for free. This is of course not applicable in cities.

      Preventing the sun from influencing your internal temperatures means that you have to fight the sun. This is a foolish thing to do; it will rise tomorrow, and the next day, and the next — if it doesn't, you'll be too busy to come bother me about it. You should instead make use of the sun to help control temperatures.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    14. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by Hijacked+Public · · Score: 5, Insightful

      When I was young we had no AC, and this was in rural southern Africa, so it was usually very warm during the day.

      I live in an old farm house in the US now and though it has central AC I very seldom use it. Usually when I have guests because if I don't they immediately comment on how hot it is and how can I stand it and that they are sweating just standing still. They threaten to swoon. They forecast their own death. They google map the closest hotel.

      I built a cabin on the other end of the property and it is similar to what you describe. (it is a Kundig design, which tend to be pretty green) People who visit still complain when the AC is not on, but only when it is particularly hot and humid outside.

      Anyway, I think it is a combination of dwelling design and the fact that people in the US are so used to conditioned indoor air. Even at 90F there is little real physical risk to anyone other than the elderly, but I have met plenty of people who simply can't tolerate it mentally.

      --
      "Sacrifice for the good of The State" - The State
    15. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by Malc · · Score: 1

      In what way?

      I've lived in Melbourne with temperatures of up to 47C. The heat the was a problem - I'd have to put the DSL modem in the freezer for 10 mins a few times a day as it would be become unreliable. That's without any cooling. But evaporative cooling causes what kinds of problems?

    16. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by Stoutlimb · · Score: 5, Insightful

      As a home designer, I resent that remark.

      Seeing as I lived and breathed in that field, I can tell you that just about every architect or designer gets a excited at the idea of sustainable, high energy efficient homes, built right to suit the local environment. So these "idiot architects" you rave about don't exist. Since you're obviously ignorant, let me inform you of the real problem. The general public.

      Anything other than a "McMansion" just won't sell to the vast majority of Americans. When the home buyer has a limited budget, they have to balance their wants with their needs, and often you will find that features such as low e windows, good insulation, large overhangs, large thermal mass, etc... They might not always compete when compared to that extra bedroom, the outdoor jacuzzi the wife's always wanted, or that extra bay in the garage. Saving $25 a month on a heating bill may be a priority, but in the big picture, it's rarely priority #1.

      Personally I love the idea of efficient and sustainable homes, but for one reason or another, clients who are willing to pay for that kind of thing are rare.

    17. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by jbengt · · Score: 1

      Using low-E glass traps heat in the summer.

      You should realize that heat flow is a two-way street. Using low -e glass to trap heat in the summer is a good thing, it reduces the amount of black body radiation of the hot outdoors that gets indoors.

    18. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by sgt+scrub · · Score: 1

      Where do you get a 20 SEER AC unit that doesn't cost half again the cost of the house? It would be nice if everyone could afford to install geothermal heat pumps in their yards too. Nice isnt exactly in every ones budget.

      --
      Having to work for a living is the root of all evil.
    19. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by roystgnr · · Score: 1

      I grew up with a swamp cooler in Abq, and it did do a decent job, and it did not cause any problems with electronics. (How could it? It merely raised the interior humidity to a level that occurs naturally in non-desert locations, which is lower still than the 100% that an AC cycle without reheating can leave you with.) The only thing incorrect about the grandparent post is the "can't afford AC" premise; although cool dessicated air would have been more expensive than cool humidified air, that wasn't the main reason we didn't want it.

      Not all of AZ and NM may be subject to the same experience, though. A mid-summer heat wave in Abq could sometimes be strong enough to raise swamp-cooled temperatures above 80; that probably occurs much more often in more southern cities.

    20. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by TooMuchToDo · · Score: 1

      Posts like yours make me wish I could "bookmark" comments on Slashdot. I'm off to check the SEER rating on my AC unit!

    21. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by Firethorn · · Score: 1

      But evaporative cooling causes what kinds of problems?

      At most, increased humidity. But modern electronics are actually pretty resistent to this, especially if they're producing enough heat to avoid condensation. Which doesn't take much.

      --
      I don't read AC A human right
    22. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Swamp coolers are useless in the greater Phoenix area. This area was once the swamp land in the middle of the desert (the human population dries it up). The temperatures there seem to hover around 120 all summer, and the place is fairly humid. In addition, when rain hits the the ground, it's like trying to survive at the end of a steaming tea spout, stay indoors, you can't breath. Arizona may be dry, but not in the largest AZ city.

    23. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by jamesh · · Score: 1

      At most, increased humidity. But modern electronics are actually pretty resistent to this, especially if they're producing enough heat to avoid condensation. Which doesn't take much.

      Yes, in all, the swamp cooler is more likely to increase the life of the components than decrease them. I'm a bit north of Melbourne, and only remember it getting to 47 degrees once, about 18 months ago. I sat inside my house with the evaporative cooler on and was quite comfortable, provided I didn't actually do anything other than sit.

    24. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by jamesh · · Score: 1

      get rid of all air leaks.

      Unless you live in a city where the best way to get a breath of fresh air is to open a window and stick your head in a building (with apologies to Douglas Adams), fresh air from outside is actually reasonably good for you, especially considering all the crap that evaporates (not the right word I know) from all the plastics etc that we have in houses these days.

    25. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by PitaBred · · Score: 1

      What in the hell are you talking about? And yes, I do have an evaporative cooler for my house, and it works great here in Colorado. Humid air reduces static electricity. It's fine for electronics. Or do they not have computers in Florida any more?

    26. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by Laurab50 · · Score: 1

      A Whole House Fan will provide energy efficient cooling in temperate climates, the fans by AirScape are quiet and have great CFM, I hardly ever use AC.

    27. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by wealthychef · · Score: 1

      Swamp cooler do a decent job if you don't mind humidity going through the roof (figuratively). The system mentioned here of course remove that humdity (hopefully not too much though -- is that adjustible?)

      --
      Currently hooked on AMP
    28. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by camperdave · · Score: 2, Funny

      get a 20 SEER rating AC unit and you will have the most efficient you can get today

      I don't think I could even find 20 seers, let alone get them to agree on which AC I should buy.

      --
      When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
    29. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by need4mospd · · Score: 2, Informative

      Problem is most homes are built wrong. the same damn cookie cutter McMansions that are designed by idiot architects.

      Designing by your principles won't pay the bills. It's not like architects are actively trying to push the worst home on their clients. Have you even talked to an architect this century? The last thing we want to do is design an inefficient building that the owner will hate. 90% of our business is "word of mouth" or repeat customers. Every employee in my firm is required to go through a pretty rough "green" building indoctrination when hired, and we have to maintain a certain amount of continuing education. Over the past ten years, this has become the standard, not the exception, in most major firms in the US.

      Now if you meant to say home builders instead of architects, I couldn't agree more, with a few rare exceptions.

      And FWIW, the A/C, windows, insulation is a good start. But, you can't just throw "efficient" and "green" products at your 4,000s.f. home expecting it will give you $50 electric bills. Until people go back to thinking 1,400s.f. is an appropriate home size, the problem will always exist.

    30. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by wealthychef · · Score: 1

      Swamp cooler do a decent job if you don't mind humidity going through the roof (figuratively). The system mentioned here of course remove that humdity (hopefully not too much though -- is that adjustible?)

      --
      Currently hooked on AMP
    31. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by Svartalf · · Score: 3, Interesting

      If you're in AZ, NM, or Western TX, you can already get there without waiting.

      Coolerado produces high performance indirect evaporative cooling systems for sale. Currently being mainly marketed to the business space, I'm sure you could conceivably get them to sell a 3-6 ton capacity system (as those were designed as residential/business units) to you since they work better overall than the NREL units. The NREL units have one thing over the Coolerado units in that they appear to work fairly well in areas like DFW, Houston, Miami, etc. where the humidity takes a good portion of the ability to cool anything by evaporative cooling. The DFW area is just at the edge of the region that evaporative cooling doesn't buy you nearly enough cooling.

      What I'm wondering is whether one could apply the heat driven desiccant system as a dryer front-end to a Coolerado unit. As it stands, they've got this portable 6-ton capacity cooling system on a trailer with a set of solar panels that demo the efficiency of their systems. They're doing it with only about 600 watts of power with the demo system.

      As for the desiccants, they're just something like Calcium Chloride in a concentrated solution (i.e. brine)- which means you'll have some periodic parts maintenance much like you would with a water treatment system. You might need to occasionally drain off the brine tank for maintenance, but you'll probably be able to simply capture it and put it back in the system. There's really little that can exist within a brine solution, so you won't have bacterial/algal buildup as a concern with that part of the system.

      --
      I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
    32. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by Svartalf · · Score: 1

      Heh... They may not, but someone does for the drier climates, so it's conceivable that they've got something as well, just not in a nice, tidy, 3 ton capacity unit right at the moment.

      --
      I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
    33. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by wealthychef · · Score: 1

      evaporates (not the right word I know)

      The word you're looking for is "sublimates".

      --
      Currently hooked on AMP
    34. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by Svartalf · · Score: 1

      It's only usable in the context of active cooling, however you accomplish it. If you don't actively cool well, low-e glass actually acts as a heat barrier.

      --
      I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
    35. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Are they all so inadequate? Don't make me come there...

    36. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by Spazmania · · Score: 1

      Electroic instruments don't like the environment they create either.

      That rather depends. The relative humidity standard for data centers (per ANSI/TIA-942 5.3.5.3) is 40% - 55%. If you start out with desert air (20%) and you completely don't seal the room you can get quite a bit of evaporative cooling before you top 55%.

      --
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    37. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by arc86 · · Score: 1

      This book is by a friend of a friend; I think it tackles a lot of the issues brought up in this thread: Losing Our Cool

    38. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by rickb928 · · Score: 1

      All such good advice. But when you live in the Phoenix area:

      - Geothermal will need to go deeper than five feet. Burying duct to exchange heat down there will be more expensive than you think.

      - What mechanism will cool your house passively when it is >100 degrees for 2 months? Elaborate on how you exchange the heat with outside air that has actually been heated to 100+ by radiational heating from streets.

      - Trading in my poorly designed slump-block home makes great sense, unless you consider the ROI for a $100k loss and the $100K+ premium for the best-effort construction. Multiply this by 150,000 to refit much of the Valley.

      Perhaps you meant to recommend that we abandon the Valley, and give it over to solar projects like sodium or lithium heat driven generators, or photovoltaic, or concentrated thermoelectric, or even underground compressed fluid storage? Sounds good. All you have to be mindful of are the impact of shading a few thousand (or is it million?) acres, and the problems of fabricating PV cells or the rare sodium or lithium spill. The spills are largely self-cleaning, admittedly, but you then get to rebuild fairly good chunks of the plant.

      And don't forget the hidden cost of fraud and incompetence. PV cells are not yet effieicnet enough to be profitable, even break-even. Liquid transport needs to be proven. Only the mirrors seem to work.

      --
      deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
    39. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by Spazmania · · Score: 4, Interesting

      can't tolerate it mentally.

      That's about right. I program computers for a living. Deep concentration for long periods of time is a key skill. Above the mid 70's I find it difficult to concentrate.

      Then there's the humidity. The summer humidity around here is routinely 70%. I own a lot of expensive electronics. 70% plus heat is ruinous. Rust and corrosion. Oxidation. I'd lose half the electricity savings to early failure of my electronics.

      --
      Moderating "-1, Disagree" is simple censorship. Have the guts to post your opinion.
    40. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by FatdogHaiku · · Score: 1

      As is stands, evaporative coolers (a.k.a. swamp coolers) are used quite a bit in the southwest right now. As long as the humidity is low they work great. Having two motors (typically a 1/2 to 1 hp blower and a 1/10 hp water pump) they use about 20 to 35% of the power a comparable A/C unit would pull. Of course when the humidity goes up, they do just make it worse, but in the desert that's not the norm so they will cover about 70-80% of the cooling season. It's important to note you have to open the home up so the air can get out, or the whole system suffers (and your doors slam). Often the cooled air is vented into the attic to help cool it in passing. Swamp coolers are also sometimes used as pre-chillers for large A/C units, or to supply cooled air to the condenser coil for an efficiency boost (as opposed to say, replacing a marginal system). I lived with swamp coolers for 20 years and never heard of a single case of legionnaires... the water evaporates and is replaced by fresh water. The water in the holding area is also pretty cold while the unit is running, I think that retards the growth of most nasties. A poorly maintained unit could grow bacteria, mold, or even moss... I've seen it. But if the unit is cleaned and used regularly they are very safe.

      Most people running swamp coolers do so because of money, I can't see them upgrading to the new system if they manage now. As a replacement for normal A/C, this new unit will still have the issue of not working well in humidity.

      --
      You have the right to remain sentient. If you give up the right to remain sentient, you will be elected to public office
    41. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by drinkypoo · · Score: 2, Informative

      You should realize that heat flow is a two-way street. Using low -e glass to trap heat in the summer is a good thing, it reduces the amount of black body radiation of the hot outdoors that gets indoors.

      Most of that energy comes in horizontally (if it's not moving horizontally, then any not radiated from near the house cannot make it inside) and so most of it bounces right back out again if whatever is on the wall behind it is light in color. In fact, proper overhangs all but eliminate that which comes in and does not come out again. This is actually an issue with passive solar heating; you may have to have a wall or ceiling at an angle to keep energy from the sun inside the house! Having one plane in a room at a non-right angle helps reduce echoes, though, so it's a desirable feature in any room. To minimize this effect (and provide other benefits) the property should be landscaped, possibly with hedges (especially in windy areas, again for other reasons.)

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    42. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by kcbnac · · Score: 1

      You can. Click on the number after the post info (yours is #32640042 - that is the comment ID - and you can bookmark that page)

      Then you can click back to 'parent' to see more/the article.

      Post title also works, and will give more information (sometimes) for the bookmark.

    43. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That extra garage bay can help that extra car last those extra 5-10 years, or can eliminate the need to add an outbuilding as a toolshed. The average jacuzzi uses about 2-3 bathtubs full of water for a season. This 'blame the common guy' for not wanting to live in a shack and eat dirt stuff is bullshit, and of course it's to further a nonsensical sense "us vs them" which is about the only way to market much of the green snake oil out there. There is absolutely nothing wrong with wanting the best possible for yourself and your family.

      The reason the solar panels, low e, and fancy AC systems dont sell is that they DO NOT PROVIDE VALUE. Unless the government steps in with a big fat handout of subsidies, they make absolutely no economic -- and very little environmental -- sense. Mains power is much cheaper than solar. Retrofitting Low-e windows didn't do jack shit to keep heat in the poorly insulated walls of my built-in-1968 mansion, and I'm not about to gut the entire structure to save myself the roughly $250 a year in extra heating costs that I estimated.

      But, I must say, thanks for paying for the windows with a fat kickback to the construction lobby, i mean, thanks for the tax credit, Obama and american taxpayer. I used the money I saved to buy that jacuzzi.

    44. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't know how much of AZ has very little RH but where most of the people live in AZ, Phoenix, there is a lot of humidity and refrigerated air is used. NM does have a lot of swamp coolers, but there are so many people from AZ and TX that don't know what swamp coolers are that they install refrigerated air, so now there is a worry about high water and electricity use. the water problem was solved by piping water from a distant river, like California does for agriculture.

    45. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by elrous0 · · Score: 2, Funny

      Funny you should mention that. I had mine finished just today. I'm so excited about it that I'm feeling a bit light-headed. Better go lie down.

      --
      SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    46. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by TooMuchToDo · · Score: 1

      I should've been more specific. I meant I wish Slashdot has a little Web 2.0 bookmark icon next to the post title, and by clicking it, the post would be added to a "Bookmark" list of posts that you could get to when logged into Slashdot. I'm aware you can bookmark in the browser, I was looking to have it integeated into the Slashdot UI.

    47. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by Wonko+the+Sane · · Score: 1

      I want to know if any of the efficiency improvement is due to not getting as cold as refrigeration.

    48. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by kcbnac · · Score: 1

      Ah, yes - THAT would be awesome. Greasemonkey script, perhaps?

    49. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by danlip · · Score: 2, Insightful

      As a home designer, I resent that remark. ... these "idiot architects" you rave about don't exist.

      I believe that would be "rant", and they do exist. Until recently I lived in a house that was designed like a solar oven.
      The south face had a front porch with a dark roof which was positioned underneath the second floor windows.
      It heated the air which would then blow in through the windows. That's nothing if not stupid.
      And absolutely no overhangs (which not only is a problem because of the solar heating,
      it means you can never leave your windows open if there is even a slight chance of rain
      because your house will flood). And that house was originally built by the architect for themselves.

      I am sure the market pressures you refer to have an effect, but I think a large part of the effect is producing a
      generation of idiot home designers. 100 years ago no one would have ever designed a home like that.

    50. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by adonoman · · Score: 3, Insightful
      It's all what you're used to. I'm one of those people who I'm sure would be quite incapacitated by a southern US summer. If it's warmer than 80F at night, I wake up after about an hour drenched in sweat. Fortunately we get maybe one of those nights per year. We'll crack 90 maybe 5-10 times. So living without AC here, just means that I just take a couple days off work and hit the beach instead of trying to think in the heat.

      On the other hand we regularly have 2 weeks worth of -40 as daily highs. Over most of the winter I generally only heating the house to 55. At 60F I'm comfortable in a t-shirt and jeans. When my formerly Trinidadian uncle comes and visits, he keeps his huge down parka on the whole time he's here. And the African immigrants I know here have seem to enjoy having their apartments heated to 80F.

      So yes, it's all fun to be able to handle more extreme weather than others, but be careful in thinking that others are wimps. I don't know you, so I won't make any assumptions, but people who can handle heat well, often can't handle the cold (and vice versa).

    51. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's what she said.

    52. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The problem is that evaporative cooling works well only in dry climates... the same areas where water resources are scarce. However, using this in conjunction with reclaimed water might be a viable option.

    53. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by kimvette · · Score: 3, Interesting

      In highly sealed buildings they actually need to install air exchangers due to indoor air pollution. Remember: synthetics (carpet, formica, your freezer and rerigerator) outgas, mold grows (I don't care HOW much you clean, if you live in a region where humidity resembles a steam room you WILL get mold), people sneeze, insects and other wild creatures (small rodents, etc.) will find or make a way into your home and they pollute. All mammals, including people, shed. Cooking creates pollutants (oils, soot, etc.) and so forth.

      So, in a modern semi-airtight building you need an air exchanger. Check this out:

      http://www.epa.gov/iaq/ia-intro.html
      http://www.epa.gov/iaq/is-imprv.html
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_exchanger

      --
      The Christian Right is Neither (Christian nor right). See: Matthew 23, Matthew 25, Ezekiel 16:48-50
    54. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by techguymatt · · Score: 1

      Apparently you've never been in Arizona in late July/August.

    55. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Except in monsoon season when it hits 115 and 80% humidity if not higher :(

    56. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by Nadaka · · Score: 1

      Wrong. Having high natural humidity will make it less efficient when outside air mixes with recirculating air, but it will still work because the system removes humidity from the air unlike traditional evaporation coolers.

    57. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by misexistentialist · · Score: 1

      While people could probably acclimate a bit more to hot weather if they would subject themselves to a period of suffering, there is still an individual comfort-range. I would guess that you and other South Africans are less comfortable at lower temps no matter what your mental state (and shivering is a lot better than sweat saturating your clothing).

    58. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by hoboroadie · · Score: 1

      In TFA they mentioned a patent, which they will license to the incumbent CFC manufacturers so that they will be able to properly manage price and availability. Like oil companies controlling the EV battery patents, this will insure stability in the markets. Pure science can be socialistic, but once our tax dollars fund a viable solution, it's free enterprise all the way, baby!

      --
      They feared that it could be used to suppress protest or support unpopular rule.
    59. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by Stoutlimb · · Score: 1

      Great anecdote! Funny to see that there are even some architects who don't put that kind of stuff as a priority. I think it's telling that the architect who designed the home no longer lives there. Perhaps this Slashdot article may explain his/her rationale: http://science.slashdot.org/story/10/06/20/1722255/Why-Being-Wrong-Makes-Humans-So-Smart

      Sorry to hear that your specific architect made some dumb decisions. Perhaps they just wanted to make the cheapest thing possible and flip. Greed and financial incentive often win over intelligence and reason.

      My opinion still stands... The majority of designers out there would love to do that kind of work, providing that it be somehow paid for. That's the rub.

    60. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by KingOfTheMoon · · Score: 1

      How not to do it... My first apartment was over garages with dark brown doors facing west. They'd collect heat all afternoon and radiate up into my place all night. It was miserable in the summer.

      My current place does it right. A patio door with southern exposure lets the sun warm me in the winter but not in the summer. If my insulation and sealing were better I probably wouldn't even need to run a heater when it gets cold.

    61. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by mathmathrevolution · · Score: 1

      a generation of idiot home designers

      Those houses are not designed by architects and are not a reflection of the field of architecture. Most houses are put together by developers, using variations on common pre-approved designs. Developers use the same designs in Maryland that they use in Phoenix. Some architect probably legally signed off on the plans at some point, but that is the limit of his role. Only the most superficial changes are ever made to the plans, and developers rarely consider the weather, the sunlight, or the orientation of the actual lot in which the house will sit.

      I absolutely agree that there are a lot of shitty buildings out there, but they probably weren't designed by "architects". They were mass produced by developers and purchased en mass by consumers who could either care less or are just too damn impressed with granite countertops to even consider efficiency.

      Don't blame the field of architecture. They've been the ones advocating energy efficient buildings more than anybody. Blame the developers who sell and consumers who buy such poor products because they are so nicely polished.

    62. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      What was the humidity there?

      Using the humidex, I live in one of the hottest places in North America, often it ends up beating the humidex adjusted temperatures for places like Death Valley.

      Yet I live in Southern Ontario, traditionally considered one of the coldest places.

      Today it's an average "cooler" summer day at 24 C, with a humidex of 28 C. This Saturday it will be 28 C, with a humidex of probably around 35 C. The record temperature for today was 33 C, which would put the humidex around 44 C.

      Anything above 40 C is to be considered life threatening, if you ask your doctor. Most people (including people who are "used" to the heat) will be very uncomfortable at anything above 30 C. Your body is SUPPOSED to feel uncomfortable at those apparent temperatures, because it's trying to tell you that you will soon risk your life if you don't do something about it.

      People are used to dry(er) air, and have colonized places that aren't.

    63. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      I live in Phoenix. I've never used a swamp cooler myself, but I've seen a lot of (mainly older) houses that have them, in conjunction with normal heat pumps. From what I've been told, the swamp coolers are only useful in the spring and fall. In the summer, when it gets well over 100, they're not very effective anymore. Also, other posters note that it gets pretty humid here during monsoon season in the summer, when it rains a lot but is still hot (not really at the same time; it's nice and cooler when it rains, but the rain is sporadic and after the rain is finished and it heats up again, all the water sitting around from the previous rain evaporates and turns into high humidity).

    64. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      When I was young we had no AC, and this was in rural southern Africa, so it was usually very warm during the day.

      I live in an old farm house in the US now and though it has central AC I very seldom use it. Usually when I have guests because if I don't they immediately comment on how hot it is and how can I stand it and that they are sweating just standing still. They threaten to swoon. They forecast their own death. They google map the closest hotel.

      There's a reason for this: it's because your guests didn't grow up in Africa.

      Let's see how you fare in someplace like Yukon, Canada or Minnesota, without any fireplaces or heating systems, and just a jacket to keep you warm. Your guests will probably be handling the cold much better than you do.

    65. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by nephilimsd · · Score: 1

      In Reno, a lot of people use swamp coolers or evaporators in place of AC, especially when the houses were built before central AC was standard. It costs a lot less to install than an entire central AC system, but still runs in to a significant problem: freezing tempuratures during the winter time. I've known quite a few acquantainces who forgot to drain their systems in time for first frost, and end up ruining their entire system due to freezing temperatures. Will this device run into similar problems, or is it more contained and less susceptible to outside temperatures?

    66. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      Wrong. I don't know about your area, but from what I've seen here, this is pretty much a complete lie.

      You don't design for homeowners. Your clients are the builders, not the people who live in the homes. The builders buy giant plots of land, and then build tract homes on them, all nearly identical. Even if 25% of the home buyers wanted more efficient or sustainable homes, you wouldn't design them for them because the builders don't care, and would rather make cookie-cutter homes that please the masses, and also the lenders. The entire way the market works is a race to the bottom, and the only way homes become more efficient is through government regulations to force it.

      Clients who want these features may not be an overwhelming majority, but it's disingenuous to say that they're "rare" when you never even deal with the people living in the homes.

      Now, if you're an architect who designs custom homes, it might be different, but you used the term "home designer", not "architect", which probably means you have no degree and never even went to college to learn real architecture. In fact, you're probably some guy who started out framing walls and worked his way up to "designing" houses, but has no real education at all. That's part of the problem with American homes: they're designed by uneducated fools, not people who have studied true architecture.

      You're right, though: "idiot architects" probably don't exist, but they're not the ones designing tract homes, they're designing multimillion-dollar custom homes and high-end office buildings and other buildings that are far better designed than some subdivision full of shitty McMansions, while the general contractors' drinking buddies "design" their tract homes.

    67. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by Golddess · · Score: 1

      Didn't the Mythbusters prove that something like you could be sealed inside an 8' x 8' x 8' room for 8 hours and be perfectly fine? It was the episode where they showed you couldn't expel so much methane in your sleep so as to kill you, which how they tested it seemed to imply what I'd just stated.

      --
      "I'm not sure I like the fugnutish tone you used in your post!" -RogL (608926)-
    68. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by Malc · · Score: 2, Interesting

      When the outside humidity is in the region of 10%, how high does the evaporative cooling raise it? Why is that a problem compared with other places where relative humidity could be in the range of 75-100%? I lived in Shanghai the May-Oct before I lived in Melbourne, and I'd say 30C there was worse than 45C downunder (I might react differently than my computer mind you, which certainly doesn't soak it's case through with sweat).

      I was somewhere near this weather station last year, it reported something like 46.4 on the day of the bush fires. As you can see, both Jan and Feb had days that reached 46. The only cooling we had were fans (I was working from home). Again, I'll take that over Shanghai at a lower temperature. It was quite an incredible experience, with everything in the house seemingly above body temperature (one couldn't even lay down to escape the heat as the bed was hot).

    69. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      Exactly. The real architects are busy designing skyscrapers and expensive custom homes, not shitty subdivisions full of tract homes. They're "designed" by a general contractor or some inbred friend or relative of his, using a crappy pre-existing design, and fit into the available land in the most efficient way they can figure out to make it, without any thought to orientation or anything like that.

      If you want a house designed by an architect, you'll need to buy some empty land and be prepared to pay for the service. You're not going to find it in a subdivision.

    70. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We had this problem where I live (Europe). It has been partially solved by a mandatory building energy efficiency certificate. Older or cheaper buildings with low-grade certificates have a lower commercial value. There is a strong incentive to remodel the house with energy-efficient features to have the certificate reissued with higher grade; this greatly increase the property value and covers the remodeling expense. New building always have a high grade certificate.

    71. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They threaten to swoon. They forecast their own death. They google map the closest hotel.

      When I am hot and at home, I may only wear a tank top and boxers. I'd feel a tad self-conscious at your house this way even if you don't mind it. Also, I may plop myself directly under or in front of a fan with a cool drink rather than exerting myself making small talk with assholes. I would feel very very wrong behaving as I do at home at 85 F than at your sweltering jungle home. By all means, let people know of your "I'm a dickface" policy before they arrive or YOU should crank up that AC prior to their arrival.

    72. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When I was young we had no AC, and this was in rural southern Africa, so it was usually very warm during the day.

      Correct me if I'm wrong, but southern Africa is temperate. It's northern Africa that gets excessively hot, being equatorial.

    73. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You dont have to force it when its properly lubed.

    74. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by h4rr4r · · Score: 2, Funny

      If it's that warm in the winter, summer must really suck.

    75. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      If the people move out, then the land lost can be offset by the homes removed. Not suggesting it is a good idea, just fine.

      PV cells do break even, go talk to anyone with panels on their home. Even without government funds.

    76. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      Lets see you tolerate low temps.
      In the winter I keep the house in the high 40s low 50s when no one else is home.

      I can't stand it above about 75F if I am not moving. This of course depends on humidity, 100F in AZ is far more pleasant than 75F in AL.

    77. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      Get the link to the comment and wget it into a file of comments you like. Not Web 2.0 shiny, but far more useful and portable.

    78. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by radtea · · Score: 1

      clients who are willing to pay for that kind of thing are rare.

      This is what he was ranting about: for reasons that are totally unclear you have assumed without any basis whatsoever that anything and everything you do to make a home more thermally efficient is going to cost big bucks.

      The reality is that significant savings can be made from intelligent use of simple tricks, from passive solar to cross-draught cooling, all without costing an arm and a leg. But that would require some actual knowledge of basic physics on the part of the designer, which is something that is clearly lacking.

      I'm willing to bet that that majority of people here have lived in at least one house designed by an idiot who clearly didn't know the first thing about passive solar, internal air circulation or passive geothermal cooling.

      --
      Blasphemy is a human right. Blasphemophobia kills.
    79. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      Who is willing to design a 1000-1400s.f. home?
      I have been looking and no architect nor contractor wants to do it. Not enough money in it they say.

    80. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      all you have to do is go look at the cookie cutter subdivisions and see all the cheap-as-shit appliances to get the idea that it was built cheaply.

      Hell the building that was torn down beside me and replaced with 2 buildings, I watched as all the corners were cut on that. Suffice it to say that unless the building is mostly made of concrete, it's probably not heating or cooling efficient.

      The stupid place I'm in now doesn't even have insulation in any interior walls. You can hear when someone on the other side of the building sneezes.

    81. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've been around many architects (the lesser ones, IMHO) who would not dream of going outside the stick-built box they work in. It depends a lot on the part of the country you are in. In Ecotopia (Washington, Oregon, Northern California), I think you're closer to right about the architects - I participated in building the 'House of the Year 2000' in 1971 for the Portland Home Show. It was combination of factory-built modules for the 'systems' and foam domes for the shell, and we could build a house in six days from the moment the slab was hardened. Here in New England, even today I don't think most architects are any more inclined to that 'experimental hippie crap' than their clients.

      The funny thing is that many of the most popular and important features are ones that descend purely from 'Keeping Up Appearances' - such as a separate room with the kitchen. Few people these days like having that, but originally (1700s) it was a feature of upscale homes because cooking was hot, and you could put the servants and the kitchen in a separate shed. But the common folk had one big room, which happens to be much better from a social point of view - ever notice how at parties folks tend to hang out in the kitchen? That's why the modern 'open plan' is successful - it's taking us back to the better social ergonomics of the cabin with a Great Room! :)

      The third half of the problem is the building codes and supply chain. Getting anything other than a cookie cutter stick-built house through the zoning, planning, building permits and neighborhood association rules can be a 10 year nightmare; and even then you often can't buy the stuff you need from Home Depot or Lowes - although if the need were widespread enough those stores would certainly be interested.

    82. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by cayenne8 · · Score: 1
      A little difficult to do in the areas I like to live in (New Orleans for example)...you really don't want to go cutting into and removing the charm a 100+ year old house has.

      There are things that can be done, but not nearly so much as what you describe. Not everyone wants a 'new' house....

      :)

      I like my hard wood floors, 15ft ceilings....I like my home to have character, rather that a cookie cutter house where all on the street look just the same.

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    83. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually it's more something that sounds akin to the Ballmer rant, but in regards to homes: DEVELOPERS! DEVELOPERS! DEVELOPERS!

      They're the ones that bulk buy the property to turn it into real estate, they're the ones that usually push for what designs are sold to people, and typically they're the ones that strongly influence zoning and housing codes - especially ones that restrict arbitrary things such as style of the houses which can be built in a community and things like that. They also prefer designs that are framed fairly simple, and go for designs that are easy for contractors to put up fast for the least cost. (This is also why you get shit chinese drywall and half-ass nailed joins instead of braces from contractors, even when spec. calls for better sources and build quality.) So as much as architects would like to be able to do some cool stylistic things and try newer and more efficient things, the developers prevent it from happening. If developers were more willing to go with novel and environmentally in-tune architecture, then it would be more possible for a potential homeowner to have one without the heavy markup that the current one-off custom builds cost.

      Don't be so quick to foist blame entirely on potential homeowners. If it wasn't for the heavy markup of the one-off builds, more buyers would be willing to look into more environmentally sound houses. The problem is that environmentally better houses just aren't being mass produced at more affordable prices.

    84. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by need4mospd · · Score: 1

      With the way the economy has hit the arch/construction industry, I find this hard to believe. Hell, I'd do it if you were in Houston. I know plenty of guys working for bigger firms taking work on the side, and a 1,400s.f. home is perfect for side work. They might not be openly advertising their services though...

    85. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      Getting anything other than a cookie cutter stick-built house through the zoning, planning, building permits and neighborhood association rules can be a 10 year nightmare; and even then you often can't buy the stuff you need from Home Depot or Lowes

      I don't know about this. People build custom homes all the time, even very nontraditional ones. But these homes aren't built in subdivisions; they're built on separate lots, and don't have any neighborhood associations. I don't see those houses taking 10 years to finish. Maybe you're right that doing such a thing large-scale (as in big subdivisions) would be a feat, but people do singular custom homes all the time without much trouble, especially in more rural areas. As for buying stuff you need, generally you can buy the things you need directly from the manufacturer. For instance, if you want to build a steel-frame house, there's companies on the internet you can contact directly. And things like HVAC systems aren't bought from HD or Lowe's.

    86. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I went in through the chimney like fucking Santa Claus.

      Left some coal in her stocking, too!

    87. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      They used to build them "right", with a central fireplace that served as a heat chimney and trees on the southwest of the house for shade and a natural source of breeze, but "right" changed when AC came along. However, those houses still got way too hot, even at night. One other feature of those old houses was a "sleeping porch" on the second floor, with no access from the porch to the ground. It was screened, and beds were situated there, because it would be too hot to sleep in the bedrooms. I had a house like that (built in 1918) and you still needed to run the AC in July and August.

    88. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by cayenne8 · · Score: 1
      "Anyway, I think it is a combination of dwelling design and the fact that people in the US are so used to conditioned indoor air. Even at 90F there is little real physical risk to anyone other than the elderly, but I have met plenty of people who simply can't tolerate it mentally."

      Let's put it this way, at least to sleep...I have to have it about 72F-73F.

      I can stand it higher during the day, but why if you don't have to? I prefer about 77F or so during the daytime hours. I can deal with 80F, but I'll start to perspire and be uncomfortable.

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    89. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by SleazyRidr · · Score: 1

      I hear you man. I grew up in Australia with close to 100F for most of the summer and my mother absolutely hated air conditioners, so we just got used to it.

      Moved to Texas, and no-one can tolerate any sort of heat. Given that it's near 100F for most of the summer here I thought everyone would be acclimatized just like me, but everyone's used to air conditioning, so if my house gets over 80 everyone thinks they're about to melt!

    90. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by SleazyRidr · · Score: 1

      Yes, people who want energy efficient homes exist, but they face the same problems as people who want buggy whips: there aren't enough of them to sustain a viable market.

    91. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by squiggleslash · · Score: 1

      Or do they not have computers in Florida any more?

      We generally use them indoors, where it's air conditioned.

      --
      You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
    92. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by mattack2 · · Score: 1

      Actually, I think he's looking for "outgassing".

    93. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by sustik · · Score: 1

      > and I'm sure that the people in places like AZ, NM, and TX will be clamoring to lower their electric bill.

      People could already substantially lower their bills. I live in TX and actually there is no real interest for energy efficient buildings and components. For example:
      1. They are still not using foam insulation for new construction.
      2. People who buy houses do not care about upgraded windows, doors, attic, AC. People do not look at the energy bills.
      3. Those who discuss and bitch about high bills *always* talk about $$$ amounts instead of kWh (Dummies I say, price per kWh depends on your provider etc.) They do not care about using less energy they just hate paying for it.
      4. They are still selling incandescent bulbs. No (tax) rebates for LED lighting.

      We had our roof insulated with foam. Recently we used about 35kWh on days with 95F outside temps in a 2600sqft two-story house. And this is with one newer (14 seer) and one older (10 seer) AC unit. The seller installed the new unit a year ago, I wish they went with a 16 seer or left the purchase for the buyer... Our attic temps are about 90F. (By the way, we also replaced two 12' patio doors to use Solarban 70 glass.)

      However, when I look around we are the exception and not the norm.

    94. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by sustik · · Score: 1

      I agree. We are those people who care about well built homes, appliances (AC, water heater) etc. It is hard to be in the minority and it is expensive too.
      (We live in TX.)

      I think they should increase the cost of energy. Preferably in tiered manner. It is done to some extent in Austin: the first 500 kWh is about 8c and 12c for the rest. It should be:
      0-500kWh: 8c
      501-1000kWh: 12c
      1001-2000kWh: 24c
      2001-3000kWh: 48c
      3001- : 96c

      With that price model people would start to care. And yes I would still pay the same, because we had the attic foam insulated and replaced two 12' patio doors. (We still need to upgrade the AC.)

    95. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There are several homes in the Arizona desert that do not have AC and are passively cooled. Check out your own state and look at the architects that actually have an education.

      Central air shaft "chimney" in the home that can be opened to let hot air out. low near ground level windows around the home that open to let low cool air in. cement slab floors that are slow to change in temperature and are a large thermal mass. at night cool air is pulled in lowering the temperature of the thermal mass, it's not 95+ at midnight.. during the day it pulls in cooler air from low and drags it across the cool floor... works great and has been normal competent engineering for decades now.

      If your home looks like the garbage in most subdivisions, you have a crap home. if it's stone,brick, well designed for thermal efficiency and passive cooling and heating... then your architect was a A student and not a D student.

      Lumpy is spot on. Americans are being sold crap-tastic homes designed and built by no talent morons.

    96. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Explain why ANY geodesic dome home comes on the market for sale their time to sold and selling prices is 40% faster than a traditional home and usually within 95% of asking price.

      Way outside the norm for the Mansions. When I sold mine the Realtor told me the same line as you did, "nobody will buy it, you will need to fire sale it, bla bla bla...." I listed it for what I wanted out of it which was 30% higher than the traditional homes around me.

      It sold in 2 weeks, for asking price. in fact every family that came to view it said, "It's great to see a house that is unique and different from all the copies" My only open house had 60 couples through the home.

      Now I live in a stone home and miss the dome. The outer walls are thick sandstone and real brick though not this fake crap you guys put on homes. This Home was built in 1953. I simply will not buy the crap designed today, Even a home that is new $5,000,000 cant touch the build quality of this old 2500 sq foot single level.

      I think that home designers are afraid of doing anything different. That why you will remain a nobody and not be known for all eternity like real architects such as Frank Lloyd Wright, IM Pei, or Donald Gardner.

      If you were right, then the guys building $20,000,000 homes would just build bigger mc mansions... strangely those are always unique have real character and have all the right design elements in them that take advantage of things like thermal mass, overhangs, etc......

      Posting anon as I AM a "Home designer" that refuses to simply modify the crap in the plans catalog. Builders hate me, clients love me and my designs.

    97. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by HereIAmJH · · Score: 2

      In TFA they mentioned a patent, which they will license to the incumbent CFC manufacturers so that they will be able to properly manage price and availability.

      Who they license to doesn't bother me near as much as the comment "eventually license" and the fact that they are a government agency working with tax dollars. They are patenting the results rather than releasing them to the public domain. I'm sure NREL does very important work, but those kinds of activities makes me want to tell my congressman to pull their public funding.

      --
      Another day, another update to a Google android app.
    98. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by Whorhay · · Score: 1

      I would really like to build a Monolithic Dome home. My wife wants a traditional stick built farm house... Guess who's winning that arguement :(

    99. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by lab16 · · Score: 1

      It isn't the heat waves that matter, it is when the storm fronts move in and raise the humidity. Swamps can cool better in even the hottest low humidity days than in the normal heat, high humidity days in Alb. The clouds associated with the storm fronts also block the heat in really well, meaning that if you are using a swamp cooler, it will stay hot inside throughout the night. If cheap enough, this new AC can be put in alongside the swamp coolers so that it can be used in place of them when it is just too humid for them to do their job properly. The swamp coolers can still be used on normal dry days if they are still more energy efficient than the new AC.

    100. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by rickcain · · Score: 1

      People should look at the simple Radiant Barrier, which is aluminum foil with a paper or plastic backing and a reinforcing scrim. It is stapled to the rafters inside the attic and reflects 97% of all radiant heat energy back out. Its quite inexpensive and works both in winter and summer, radiating heat back in as well, though to a lesser degree. I'm surprised its not standard for all new houses, but builders will only put what is required by code. My new house didn't even have proper attic ventilation so it was like an indian sweat hut up there in the summer.

    101. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "the same damn cookie cutter McMansions that are designed by idiot architects"

      I have no clue what a McMansion really is. I've seen that term thrown around so often, it's ridiculous. Some people think it's those 3,000 sq ft cookie cutter homes in a suburban area. I've seen others use it to describe 5,000-6,000 sq ft homes in a luxury development. I've even seen it termed for luxury small 1 story buildings of 2,200 some sq ft that was custom built in a city. I think what it is really is that people who use the term are just jealous someone has a bigger home, and wants to find some way to badmouth it, so they do it the "green" way.

      The #1 issue with the "idiot architects" isn't that they design big homes. It's that they do not consider HVAC in designing a home. I know a home that's over 10,000 sq ft that uses less electricity than new homes of similar build. Why? Because it's got solar panels, multiple DX geothermal pumps (yes, direct exchange), and solar heated hot water coupled in WITH the geothermal systems. Their average heating, cooling, and hot water bill is $50 a month for like a family of 8. (btw, I've heard people badmouth that particular home as a McMansion. At least they blew some money on energy savings and have less of an impact than the person trying to insult them.)

      A lot of problems can also be avoided using the available tech. For example, want a conventional looking home? At least add foil faced plywood on your roof, to reflect heat. Your attic temps will be 20-40 degrees lower, and your AC will run less.

      "get a 20 SEER rating AC unit and you will have the most efficient you can get today... it's only a couple grand more than a standard AC unit."

      Depends on the tonnage. Also depends on the control system. Sometimes when you replace a unit, esp. one in a hybrid system (heat pump (AC and heat) + natural gas), some installers still insist on using a 1-stage system (not sure why, probably inexperience). The max on those seem to be around 15seer.

      Also, that couple grand may be better served by adding more attic insulation and housewrap. Or an attic fan.

      "Oh and insulate your home, replace your windows with triple pane and low-e glass, and get rid of all air leaks."

      No, you need to evaluate your home and see where the cost savings are maximally applied.

      Second, you need to consider safety when an upgrade is performed in light of the current systems you have in the home. In some homes, your suggestion to seal air leaks can lead to carbon monoxide buildup if they heat with wood or heating oil (older boiler). CO is bad, and they may be unaware of the situation with their older systems yet perform an upgrade thinking everything will work out. This isn't limited to upgrades/remodeling either. This situation has been seen a lot in many new, tight, well-insulated houses--a home air exchanger has to be added to get fresh air INTO the house (an air exchanger brings in fresh air, but retains the heat/cooling in the home). There was a home in Fine Homebuilding that was covered, where the builder and homeowner worked together to build a home with good energy savings; they encountered CO *after* the home was built when the inside of the windows fogged up, so even to the experts, it's not an easy thing to take into consideration.

      btw, the number one thing you can do in many areas is to keep your large deciduous trees around. Personally, I've always wonder why people don't simply pull a mylar tarp over their homes on certain sunny days.

    102. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by Hijacked+Public · · Score: 1

      I'm in southern Indiana now, and we have a few months of cold. Last winter we had snow on the ground for about a month straight. I stand it fine if I'm active. People around here hunt deer in the winter by sitting still for long periods of time, which I admit I do not enjoy at all.

      --
      "Sacrifice for the good of The State" - The State
    103. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by Bigjeff5 · · Score: 2, Informative

      I don't know how your swamp cooler works, but any halfway decent one won't be pumping any extra water into your air. They use heat exchangers to get the cold into the building, and evaporate out the water to the open air to cool off the heated piping.

      If yours is indoors, you're doing it wrong.

      --
      Security is mostly a superstition... Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. - Helen Keller
    104. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Exactly. The real architects are busy designing skyscrapers and expensive custom homes, not shitty subdivisions full of tract homes.

      I think you have the AIA to blame for that. I recently worked on a $3M building project for a nonprofit and the architects routinely wanted 20% of the total cost for their design work, even a two-man shop, and weren't willing to negotiate. They chose to blame AIA rules for their fee. We chose to not work with a design architect and hired a (rare) structural architect for a very high hourly rate to verify the work the engineer and designer did (both on hourly rates themselves). The only reason we chose to hire an architect at all is that the government mandated it (no changes were required). Sweet work when a coercive monopoly mandates your rates. The AMA seems to work similarly.

      Given fixed percentages, the savvy architect will naturally want the most expensive jobs.

      I didn't start this comment intending to implicate government in our energy efficiency woes, but there it is.

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    105. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

      Maybe you're looking for Zotero or Instapaper?

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    106. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by Bigjeff5 · · Score: 1

      Most of that energy comes in horizontally (if it's not moving horizontally, then any not radiated from near the house cannot make it inside) and so most of it bounces right back out again if whatever is on the wall behind it is light in color.

      Depending on how the low-e coating is applied (either 2nd or 3rd pane), it can either block solar radiation or enhance the ability of glass to trap solar radiation significantly. It has no middle option. If you're in a climate that gets cool in the winter and hot in the summer, you either want no low-e and overhangs or low-e on the second pane (to block solar radiation). Such climates typically don't have long, intense winters, so the lack of solar radiation trapping is not your major cost consideration.

      If you're in a cool climate, you want low-e on the third pane to trap the radiation. If you're in a hot climate you want low-e on the second pane, to block it, and overhangs.

      A hot, humid climate is going to need every trick in the book to get the place as cool as possible, and then you're almost certainly going to need to add active cooling on top of it. In both you want to control the air flow, so you want it well insulated and sealed pretty well. The very last thing you want is an unplanned air exchange somewhere in the house. That will kill your AC/heating bill.

      --
      Security is mostly a superstition... Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. - Helen Keller
    107. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by jamesh · · Score: 1

      That's the one!

    108. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by WindBourne · · Score: 1

      skip the triple pane/low-e, and get the new double-pane aerogel that are coming. They will be cheaper than triple pane, and much better insulation.

      --
      I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
    109. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by neoprog · · Score: 1

      I swear to God, the next person that uses the meaningless 'McMansion' is gonna get it.

    110. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You tell that wife of yours that some anonymous guy on the internet agrees with you!
      (btw, I may compromise myself and build a hybrid monolithic dome/earth ship, so there is some more conventional living space.)

    111. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by cyn1c77 · · Score: 1

      I don't know how your swamp cooler works, but any halfway decent one won't be pumping any extra water into your air. They use heat exchangers to get the cold into the building, and evaporate out the water to the open air to cool off the heated piping.

      If yours is indoors, you're doing it wrong.

      Actually, it sounds like you are not familiar with the variety of available evaporation coolers.

      There are several different designs that all cool air by evaporation cooling. Some designs circulate all the moisture inside the house, some keep all the moisture outside the house by using a heat exchanger, and some cool in several stages with heat exchangers using a final evaporative stage without a heat exchanger to moisten the mostly cooled air being circulated inside the house.

      So two of the three commonly available designs will pump extra water into your air. And in a dry climate, that moisture feels pretty damn good.

    112. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by sunspot42 · · Score: 1

      It was the episode where they showed you couldn't expel so much methane in your sleep so as to kill yourself

      Oh, I bet you could after a dinner at Taco Bell.

    113. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by cthulhu11 · · Score: 1

      AFAIK, methane isn't toxic. My place was built in 2007, with modern building codes/practices such that there's a passive air vent in each room that leads to underneath the siding. Seems to me that zealous sealing to the point of having to explicitly ventilate is pointless. Apparently enough comes through the vents to keep us alive, but the air inside is depressingly stale. I soooo want to go back a couple of years and not sell my 1986-built place. Despite having double the square footage and three times the air volume, it was cheaper to heat.

    114. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by Lunzo · · Score: 1

      Air-exchangers? Talk about over complicating things. Why not just open a few windows?

    115. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by DedTV · · Score: 1

      I lived in Central CA. For a long time we had swamp coolers. Eventually bought a house with Central Air and ended up having to put humidifiers all over the place.
      We learned a hard lesson that "dehumidifies the room" is a great feature in the midwest where, when it's 95F with 80% humidity it makes you feel like crap but that in Central CA where it's 110F with 25% humidity it's not a great feature as you step outside and your nose immediately starts bleeding.

    116. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by tyrione · · Score: 1

      If you have a 4,000 sq ft home you'll have two separate Heat Systems. You'll have two 95% efficient mult-stage heat exchanger and you'll have a subsystem to recycle outside air in and out of your home that meets insulation standards to keep your target temperature you want in your home. At $3k per furnace and depending on how many large rooms you have, with high ceiling fans and more you'll get that consistent temperature, but as others have pointed out, old fashioned large overhangs and more need to be part of this big home you cite. Most people I know don't live in 4,000 sq ft homes. Most people live in 1000-1400 sq ft homes, per floor. Most of those homes are between 2,000 - 2,800 sq ft.

      I'm still quite astonished most people think one would put in fiber glass Owens Corning insulation in the attic to reach code when various forms of blow in foam insulation with much higher R density per cubic inch is the logical solution.

      Then again having family members with Finish Carpentry and General Contracting backgrounds I don't have wasted conversations on ``that's impossible! who wants to pay x,y,z in insulation costs now!,'' economically proven fallacious arguments with them. Being a mechanical engineer and one who has construction experience there are many ways to upgrade one's home that saves you consistent costs, over time.

      I've worked around contractors who charge home owners for R30 sub-flooring and put in R25, just to cite one example. States like Idaho are just now admitting their lack of regulations for construction inspectors has cost that state and it's home owners hundreds of millions, if not billions in energy costs over the past several decades. Washington state gets a bad rap for having higher regulations, yet those regulations are limited by the corruption of it's inspectors, just like Idaho. The contractors are more competent but equally greedy and often don't even file to make sure their projects are permitted properly. The amount of under-the-table bidding is pathetic.

      It's incumbent on the home owner who wants to get the most out of their investment to make sure the proper permits are purchased. That still doesn't stop most people I've met give excuses that they don't need permits and that the contractor is competent, knows his craft and wouldn't screw them over. Tell that to your homeowners insurance when you have damage and they don't pay out.

      Then again, in this flip this house America I don't expect anyone to grasp the simple idea of spending > 10 years in a home.

      So, if it costs $15,000 to bring your home into a controlled environment, with a healthy mix of outside air in and your humidity index at a safe level, it's not surprising to me that if your power bill, per month goes from $250 to $80, amortized over 120 months [10 years], you'll be saving $20,400 [Of course this assumes a linear curve, when we know it's a non-linear approximation]. What's even less surprising to me is how come people would rather spend much more using any type of A/C solution that will ultimately leave you with a poorly insulated home and high utility bills.

      They'd rather not invest in their home, and find a quick fix to those hot summer days by using A/C, instead of investing wisely in their home which ultimately will save them money and give them a greater return value later when they go to resell that investment.

    117. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by adonoman · · Score: 1

      Southern Indiana doesn't get cold. Indianapolis' all time record low is only -30F, and there isn't a month with an average high below freezing. If you get up to northern Minnesota or North Dakota, the records are around -40F, head up north to Winnipeg or Edmonton and you get -50F for a record, with snow on the ground from October straight through to May some years. After a cold winter, during the first few days of above freezing weather you'll see people (mostly crazies, IMHO) out in short sleeves and shorts in 20F weather. Dear hunting in 10F weather is hardly enduring the cold.

    118. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by kimvette · · Score: 1

      You didn't read, obviously. Air exchangers will recover about 90% of the heat from the air it exchanges. A window will not do that. Maybe you missed it but the topic here is regarding HVAC efficiency, and opening a window is not a solution, whether your HVAC is moving heat into or out of the structure.

      --
      The Christian Right is Neither (Christian nor right). See: Matthew 23, Matthew 25, Ezekiel 16:48-50
    119. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You weren't doing it right.

    120. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I live in NM - you must be one of those arrogant snobs. Most people in this part of the country can't affort what you are suggesting. Considering the current economy most people I know can't even afford to spend $2000 on a car much less on their house.

    121. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by mrchaotica · · Score: 1

      The point of sealing a house is to have adequate ventilation, but through a heat exchanger. The way your house was built doesn't make any sense.

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    122. Re:OK, so when can we buy one? by cthulhu11 · · Score: 1

      The builder was pretty clueless in certain ways. Apparently it meets code and supposedly is standard practice for townhouses here.

  4. Good for server farms? by tagno25 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Heat is later used to evaporate water vapor back out — heat that can come from a variety of sources such as solar or natural gas.

    or the servers that are being cooled?

    1. Re:Good for server farms? by somersault · · Score: 5, Funny

      And how are they going to pipe down solar gas into your server room anyway?

      --
      which is totally what she said
    2. Re:Good for server farms? by lul_wat · · Score: 1

      Multiplex the internet tubes to allocate time between Internet and Gas

      --
      Divide a cake by zero. Is it still a cake?
    3. Re:Good for server farms? by MoellerPlesset2 · · Score: 2, Informative

      or the servers that are being cooled?

      Why not? In the opposite situation to AC, I know the PDC supercomputing center in Stockholm, Sweden feeds the surplus heat from their machines into the local district heating system.
      Perhaps even more originally, those crafty Swedes have also hooked up their crematoriums!

    4. Re:Good for server farms? by Joce640k · · Score: 0

      Finally ... a CPU that can cool itself. No noisy heatsink required!

      --
      No sig today...
    5. Re:Good for server farms? by SharpFang · · Score: 1

      I'm afraid of one thing: if that filter isn't 100% efficient, salt particles everywhere!
      Not harmful to humans (quite healthy actually) but not good for electronics.

      --
      45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
    6. Re:Good for server farms? by daem0n1x · · Score: 4, Funny

      Oh, those fucking nanny-state latte-drinking faggie euro-trash tree-hugging abortionist lesbian pot-smoking liberals! That be a strike against liberty!

      God gave me the right of freezing to death without having that nanny-state surplus heat fed into my heating system. If I want heat, I'll buy my own oil and heat myself, thank you!

      First, you accept their surplus heat, then you go to the hospital for free, when you least expect it you're all dressed in red, singing "The International".

    7. Re:Good for server farms? by Pax681 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Finally ... a CPU that can cool itself. No noisy heatsink required!

      heatsinks are NOT noisy....... not one bit

      fans can be tho

    8. Re:Good for server farms? by weirdcrashingnoises · · Score: 1

      but what would the power draw of the demultiplexer be?

      --
      sigs... don't talk to me about sigs....
    9. Re:Good for server farms? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The joke's on you, solar oil is an old tradename for diesel fuel, so solar gas must be ethylene or something like that.

    10. Re:Good for server farms? by Calinous · · Score: 1

      Yes, if your servers run at some high temperature - I assume above water boiling point, based on the specific type of liquid dessicant. Maybe quite a bit more than the boiling point, as it seems this uses a chemical bond

    11. Re:Good for server farms? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      They are about to elect a president who has stated, "Swedes are jealous of you immigrants because you have a proper culture and traditions while we just have stupid and silly stuff like Midsummer's night". Imagine Obama saying that to Mexicans. Not too long ago there was a nice program of how the state crisis shelters for women effectively taught them that all men are rapists - the question was asked, "do you think that there are some men who don't rape women?" and the response from the state-employed counselor was, after a long pause, "may, just a few".

      When a journalist asked the relevant person at ministerial level about this she was told she was a traitor to the women's cause and should hope she never needed help from a shelter because she wouldn't get it.

      Yes, they are socialist - yes, they are singing the International. It is no less "funny" than if they were neo-nazis.

    12. Re:Good for server farms? by cynyr · · Score: 1

      don't worry that filter isn't 100%, even if it was once installed the monkey responsible for changing it ever 2 weeks read it as every 2 months, and won't change it until people complain it smells like fish in the building.

      --
      All of the above was encrypted with a Quad ROT-13 method. Unauthorized decryption is in violation of the DMCA.
    13. Re:Good for server farms? by Semaphore_99 · · Score: 1

      You won't need natural gas to generate heat for the AC. The heat can come from the CPU itself. This sounds like a good project for a CPU cooler.... The trick is preventing condensation from getting on your CPU/Motherboard.

    14. Re:Good for server farms? by Hurricane78 · · Score: 1

      Photonic fluids flow down mirrored tubes by themselves. :P

      --
      Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
    15. Re:Good for server farms? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Heat is later used to evaporate water vapor back out — heat that can come from a variety of sources such as solar or natural gas.

      or the servers that are being cooled?

      It sure would be great but you would probably be sued for breaking the second law of thermodynamics. You have to add some energy (eg heat) to get something done.

    16. Re:Good for server farms? by operagost · · Score: 2, Funny

      Then when you're no longer of use to the state, they can put you into their eco-friendly crematorium!

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    17. Re:Good for server farms? by jamesh · · Score: 5, Funny

      heatsinks are NOT noisy

      They never make a sound when _you_ are in the room, but just wait until your back is turned. They're bitchy little things.

    18. Re:Good for server farms? by daem0n1x · · Score: 1

      Yeah, right. I can also pull a lot of made-up shit out of my ass and post it anonymously. Good luck.

    19. Re:Good for server farms? by daem0n1x · · Score: 1

      The nutcase website you sent me has nothing about crematoriums in Sweden. Have you taken your pills today?

    20. Re:Good for server farms? by Klinky · · Score: 1

      Yet we have oil spewing into our Gulf right now thanks to private sector & capitalistic brilliance. You can find anecdotes to support your party or economic model however much you like. The real problem is that incompetence & corruption are spread in all systems, so us humans just go around in circles picking out the flaws and holding up our own ideals as the solution.

    21. Re:Good for server farms? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Pedant.

    22. Re:Good for server farms? by Pax681 · · Score: 2, Informative

      Pedant.

      this is slashdot... of course i am a pedant

      you must be new here :P

    23. Re:Good for server farms? by Spazmania · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Such as a 200 degree Fahrenheit heat source. Not servers. And solar only gets you part of the way there. Unless you have a source of high temperature waste heat (e.g. cooking exhaust) or live in a relatively dry climate, you'll spend a lot of money powering the desiccant recycling loop.

      --
      Moderating "-1, Disagree" is simple censorship. Have the guts to post your opinion.
    24. Re:Good for server farms? by steelfood · · Score: 1

      when you least expect it you're all dressed in red, singing "The International".

      Or Jingle Bells.

      --
      "If a nation expects to be ignorant and free in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be."
    25. Re:Good for server farms? by SwedishCoward · · Score: 1

      or the servers that are being cooled?

      Why not?

      The physics department would complain. It's against the second law of thermodynamics. You can't power a fridge by the heat of the food that's in it.

    26. Re:Good for server farms? by SharpFang · · Score: 1

      Still, it may go clogged, not passing any water nor air, instead of becoming leaky, passing both.

      --
      45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
    27. Re:Good for server farms? by elrous0 · · Score: 1

      First they gave me heat, then they took my guns and my Truck-Boat-Truck. Next thing you know, I was wearing tie-dye and smoking weed in San Fransisco. Those left-wingers are just insidious!

      --
      SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    28. Re:Good for server farms? by Yert · · Score: 1

      Screw that, we'll be UltraEnvironCapitalists and build the datacenter _on the surface of the Sun itself_. Then there's no need to pipe solar gases anywhere, they'll be massively abundant! As an added bonus, we'll put solar panels on all sides of the building and run a 100% off-the-grid cooling solution. This will be the most eco-friendly datacenter on the plan... er, in the worl... er. Ever conceived!

      Besides, if we can't get oil pipelines working right, can you imagine the disaster if a solar gas pipeline burst?! There'd be hydrogen and helium and such all over the place! What a nightmare!

      --
      Truck driver, plumber, Linux systems engineer.
    29. Re:Good for server farms? by Bigjeff5 · · Score: 1

      Yet we have oil spewing into our Gulf right now thanks to private sector & capitalistic brilliance.

      I hate to break it to you, but everything BP did (including the testing and installation of that failed BOP) was signed off on by the appropriate federal agency. Trust me, you can't even sneeze in the oil industry without federal approval. I frankly can't think of a more heavily regulated industry in the US. That worked out real well, eh?*

      It's a horrible accident, and lots of people definitely screwed up (which is true in all accidents, by definition), but all the bullshit in congress is just a witch-hunt to cover the fed's ass. And every congressman/woman needs his/her 15 minutes of fame, of course.

      *Note that I'm not suggesting less regulation would have been better. The system failed, it had nothing to do with the rules, and everything to do with the people enforcing them.

      --
      Security is mostly a superstition... Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. - Helen Keller
    30. Re:Good for server farms? by Bigjeff5 · · Score: 1

      At least you can admit it.

      I prefer to come up with elaborate posts that mock the general idiocy of pedants.

      It's fun, and I'm hoping it catches on.

      --
      Security is mostly a superstition... Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. - Helen Keller
    31. Re:Good for server farms? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They are about to elect a president who has stated,

      Hey you need to do better making shit up. Sweden is a constitutional monarchy

    32. Re:Good for server farms? by w0mprat · · Score: 1

      heatsinks are NOT noisy....... not one bit

      No they do, sounds a bit like "GAAAAAAAAH!" and occurs when oversize tower cooler wrenches motherboard...

      --
      After logging in slashdot still does not take you back to the page you were on. It's been that way for 20 years.
    33. Re:Good for server farms? by evilviper · · Score: 1

      Why not?

      Temperature differential. Second law of thermodynamics.

      In short: Dr. Sterling says, "No."

      In the opposite situation to AC, I know the PDC supercomputing center in Stockholm, Sweden feeds the surplus heat from their machines into the local district heating system.

      Yes, waste heat is perfect when you have free "cold". However, to get work out of heat when it's already hot out, is purely perpetual motion nonsense.

      --
      Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
    34. Re:Good for server farms? by Klinky · · Score: 1

      I think we're on the same page. Private & public sectors have their places, but both are corrupted. Anyone holding one above the other is kidding themselves.

  5. Is this a closed system? by OnePumpChump · · Score: 5, Informative

    Swamp coolers use a LOT of water. Is this better than them in terms of water use? If not, it's just trading one environmental ill for another. The places that have water to spare also have humidity high enough that even this system might not do so well with its evaporative cooling, and the places where evaporative cooling works best don't have the water to spare.

    1. Re:Is this a closed system? by Trepidity · · Score: 3, Insightful

      From what they claim, it sounds like pairing with the desiccants will allow it to work better in humid climates, so presumably that'd have some benefit for places that are hot, humid, and have plentiful water. They do mention being able to improve the usefulness of evaporative coolers in Tucson, though (by allowing for cooling to lower temps), so you might be right about it trading one environmental ill for another.

    2. Re:Is this a closed system? by Phat_Tony · · Score: 2, Interesting

      How much water does it use, and also, if it were rolled out city-wide, how much would it increase local humidity on those hot, still days?

      --
      Can anyone tell me how to set my sig on Slashdot?
    3. Re:Is this a closed system? by SharpFang · · Score: 4, Interesting

      1) it can use salty water. It's drinking water that we are short on.
      2) cooling the air extracts humidity from it. If the dehumidifier filter is ~99% efficient, it will receive more water from intake air than lose at the filter.

      --
      45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
    4. Re:Is this a closed system? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      Not only that, they are using wierd chemicals like sodium chloride which contains toxic sodium!

    5. Re:Is this a closed system? by smpoole7 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      > The places that have water to spare also have humidity ...

      It's like that here in Alabama. We're currently running in the mid-90's with dewpoints in 80's. "Swamp coolers" just don't work well in this climate, so I don't know how useful this will be to us.

      From the Wiki article on evaporative cooling: "When considering water evaporating into air, the wet-bulb temperature, as compared to the air's dry-bulb temperature, is a measure of the potential for evaporative cooling. The greater the difference between the two temperatures, the greater the evaporative cooling effect. When the temperatures are the same, no net evaporation of water in air occurs, thus there is no cooling effect."

      This is simple physics.

      In other words, it's a neat idea that'll probably work in Arizona and Utah, as others have mentioned, but where AC is used the most -- here in the humid Southern states -- evaporative cooling just doesn't work.

      Not that I wouldn't like to see it, mind you, considering the electric bills at our studios and transmitter sites. :(

      --
      Cogito, igitur comedam pizza.
    6. Re:Is this a closed system? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You don't necessarily have high humidity just because you have nearby water: aquifers, snow melt and rivers often provide a lot of water without providing much humidity, e.g. Albuquerque and the Rio Grande.

    7. Re:Is this a closed system? by rhsanborn · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately, while the United States DOES have a lot of ocean coast, we aren't plumbed for salt water (and it would be a nightmare to maintain). Then, add in all the inland states. So, 99%+ of Americans will only have access to clean, fresh, drinking water to put through something like this. As such, it needs to be assumed, and planned for.

    8. Re:Is this a closed system? by Big_Breaker · · Score: 1

      It is a lot of water but you can reclaim the water that is driven off the desiccant if water is in short supply. The stock system doesn't do it but that hot, humid exhaust air can be cooled to ambient and much of the water will condense out. In fact this type of cooling system harvests water in humid environments.

      Evaporating water creates as much cooling BTU (negative btus) or coolth as the BTUs it would take to boil a like amount of water. It works out to about 6 liters per hour per ton of AC. A ton of AC is 12k BTU per hour and a BTU is ~ kilojoule.

    9. Re:Is this a closed system? by Andy+Dodd · · Score: 1

      I think that the desiccants can reduce the wet-bulb temperature of incoming air in an (at least mostly) closed loop for the desiccants. (The desiccant salts would stay in the system but the water wouldn't.)

      It's much harder to do it for the evaporative water feed, and in fact I'm not sure if it can be done with a continuous system without effectively making it another phase change refrigeration system.

      However, it is possible to do closed-loop desiccant based systems if they are "intermittent" - I've seen one that used two chambers of silica gel. Don't have a link to it right now.

      Also there have been other absorption/adsorption based refrigeration technologies for a while. In some cases they are highly inefficient, but have the advantage of using cheap/readily available low temperature heat sources like generator exhaust, solar hot water (a LOT cheaper than concentrated solar or PV), or hot springs. (Who cares if your AC is inefficient if the energy comes from cheap thermal solar collectors on the roof, esp. since they are now contributing to cooling your house and not heating it.)

      --
      retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
    10. Re:Is this a closed system? by chrysrobyn · · Score: 4, Informative

      We're currently running in the mid-90's with dewpoints in 80's. "Swamp coolers" just don't work well in this climate, so I don't know how useful this will be to us.

      Wikipedia doesn't do the principle justice. A swamp cooler is essentially a big fiber mesh (which can look and feel similar to cardboard but holds up when it gets wet). This mesh is constantly sprayed with jets of water to keep it wet -- damp isn't enough. A big fan, bigger than a typical air conditioner, forces air through this mesh and pushes it into the house. Each room that needs to be cooled needs to vent air out, typically into the attic and out into the outside. The more air you move through this mesh, the cooler the house, so it's typical that the air volume is much higher than an air conditioner.

      The humid air introduced into the house is essentially at dew point (if it's lower than dew point, the mesh / jets aren't doing their job forcing the water into the air), so the house will likely be warmer than that, making a few assumptions about the conditions outside. Now, if you had this pre-drier in Alabama, dropping the dew point to 40 or 50, you'd be able to cool the air 20 or so degrees -- about what your air conditioner does.

      By the way, I grew up in Phoenix. Instead of the $400/month power bills from running the air conditioners, my parents opted to run swamp coolers. The water bill regularly got above $100/month, but the electric bill didn't. Financially, it was a good trade-off. I'm told there are health benefits from breathing more humid air instead of dry desert air, and the air was constantly being refreshed from the outside, so there certainly weren't any toxic house concerns that people in some areas of the country have. On the flip side, there's the monsoon season, which is typically the whole month of August; the dew point rises to the point where swamp coolers just don't cool much. Several of my Magic: The Gathering cards (mostly Revised aka 3rd Edition) felt like they had a powdery coating on them. I assume this is mold. If it was on my cards, I'm certain it was on countless other surfaces we just never touched enough.

    11. Re:Is this a closed system? by chrysrobyn · · Score: 2, Insightful

      1) it can use salty water. It's drinking water that we are short on.

      Why do you believe it can use salty water? I've seen salt deposits, and I've worked with swamp coolers. If you spray salt water at a fiber mesh and force air through this mesh to evaporate the water and cool/humidify the air, the salt remains in the mesh, right? So it's eventually so clogged no air goes through? And the salt that makes it into the air will rust out the motor driving the fan and end up depositing itself all over your ducts and house. I'd bet you'd need to replace your swamp cooler mesh every few weeks or even every month, replace the motor annually, and if you had any metal in your ducts, they'd not be worth anything after a few years. And that's ignoring the effects of salt deposits all over your home.

    12. Re:Is this a closed system? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Even where it will work there is no personal economic benefit. Like hot air the price will always rise as the costs go down and the difference will be taken up by producers to supply more users.

      As noted by a wag many years ago: The computer you want always costs $5,000. In some desert areas open windows and strategic placement of personally woven wet blankets still stands as a marvel of human technology at minimal cost and no environmental damage.

      Of course one must know how to build the house to take advantage of prevailing winds and the on site eddy of smaller currents. This of course can not be done if homes may only face the cardinal compass points and must be built side by side in rows. One could opt for a Teepee but, chained to some job 9 to 5, it is impossible to stay home and keep your blankets wet.

      The solution is to form a technology company or government and provide a wet blanket for everyone.

    13. Re:Is this a closed system? by laughingskeptic · · Score: 1

      It is not a closed system, however the concentration of the desicant would be expected to be constant on average. Otherwise you would wind up with dry salt instead of a slurry. So the moisture absorbed during the cooling process would be expected to be equal to the moisture lost by the heating process.

    14. Re:Is this a closed system? by SharpFang · · Score: 2, Informative

      Why do you believe it can use salty water?

      "a very strong aqueous solution of lithium chloride or sodium chloride"

      That's salty water.

      --
      45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
    15. Re:Is this a closed system? by jo_ham · · Score: 1

      Water still boils in Alabama though, right? With enough energy you can drive water into humid air - the trick is reducing the amount you need, so with a combination of chemical desiccants and some way to re concentrate them via heat, you can make an effective AC unit. My initial brainstorming idea would be to lower the pressure in the evaporation section, but that obviously carries an energy cost too.

    16. Re:Is this a closed system? by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      Water still boils in Alabama though, right?

      It boils into the heated air directly above the stove and then quickly condenses, making something nearby wet.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    17. Re:Is this a closed system? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The idea of swamp cooling or evaporative cooling is fairly old, but the idea of this product is to also lower the humidity indoors, so that you can get a greater evaporative effect in the usual places (drier climates) or actually get an evaporative effect in wetter climates (southeastern US). They use a chemical, since a standard dehumidifier would negate any electrical savings.

      Sure, this transfers electric bills to water bills, but I could see these working off of a grey water setup to reduce water bills. Even so, without having to pay demand and additional fees that are increased annually, there is potentially a lot more savings to be had if an evaporative solution works.

      For the math inclined, a pound of water, evaporated, will remove about 970 BTU's of heat from a given space. A 1-ton air conditioning unit (good for one room or small apartments), cools 12,000 BTU/h, or about 13 pounds of water (about 1.5 US gallons of water). Compare to a 3-ton unit, that would be 4.5 gallons of water per hour to achieve the same cooling. Running your cooler for 12 hours per day, for 30 days, would cost roughly 1620 gallons of water per month for 3 tons of cooling. If the rate for water is between 50 cents and 6 dollars per 1000 gallons, then this amount represents an increase (if uncompensated) of $0.81 to $9.72 on your monthly water bill. Fairly cheap, compared to the energy usage of a 3-ton air conditioning unit.

        The customary "average" daily usage for a person is 100 gallons per day, where a 3 ton cooler uses 54 gallons per day with 12 hours of operation. (roughly half a person extra per household)

    18. Re:Is this a closed system? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Are you in TV or radio? Which station are you working for?

    19. Re:Is this a closed system? by jo_ham · · Score: 1

      So you shape this thing into something that funnels the water away from the solution you are trying to remove it from.

    20. Re:Is this a closed system? by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      In other words, it's a neat idea that'll probably work in Arizona and Utah, as others have mentioned, but where AC is used the most

      Not if they live in Phoenix, where most Arizona residents live. It's too humid here. Between the summer monsoons, and all the swimming pools and irrigation for green lawns, the humidity here in the summer is too high to bother with swamp cooling.

    21. Re:Is this a closed system? by mathmathrevolution · · Score: 1

      First, you may recall from high school that when you add salt to water you raise its boiling point. You're going to severely compromise the effectiveness of your swamp cooler if you are using salt water. Second, the poster above you (chrysrobyn) was right: If you are constantly evaporating saltwater then the salt will accumulate and you would need to deal with that. Third, saltwater rusts the hell out of everything. Fourth, the proposed system uses salt as a desiccant, it's not using saltwater as an evaporate medium.

    22. Re:Is this a closed system? by drsmithy · · Score: 1

      Several of my Magic: The Gathering cards (mostly Revised aka 3rd Edition) felt like they had a powdery coating on them. I assume this is mold. If it was on my cards, I'm certain it was on countless other surfaces we just never touched enough.

      It's dried up minerals dust from the evaporated water - the water in Phoenix is extremely "hard", so pretty much anything that involves evaporating water (swamp coolers, humidifiers, dishwashers, etc) will result in a film of white dust building up.

      The solution is to either a) use distilled water or b) use a water softener.

    23. Re:Is this a closed system? by chrysrobyn · · Score: 1

      It's dried up minerals dust from the evaporated water - the water in Phoenix is extremely "hard", so pretty much anything that involves evaporating water (swamp coolers, humidifiers, dishwashers, etc) will result in a film of white dust building up.

      I like the theory, but I don't think that's it. If that were the case, all belongings should have this coat. Beyond dust, there should be these crystalline minerals all over everything. Every metal surface would have major oxidation problems pretty quickly. Stainless steel isn't really stainless, it's stain resistant. There's a reason most boats are constantly being repainted.

      The solution is to either a) use distilled water or b) use a water softener.

      Using distilled water in this volume is not a solution. And all water softeners work by adding more crap to the water -- so potassium and calcium would precipitate out as it's treated, so it's got to be flushed out (using even more water) or it'll be deposited somewhere worse.

    24. Re:Is this a closed system? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      this are indirect evaporators. You use swamp cooling, indirectly, to cool air via a heat exchanger, without sullying the home without raising the relative humidity. Alabama is precisely where these units should work. The think not mentioned that virtually no one will talk about here is the liquid desiccant. LiCl is expensive stuff. CaCl2 is cheap as dirt but needs a lot more surface area to absorb/desorb the same amount of water, which means big equipment. So big or expensive, pick!
        FYI, there are about 3 groups of people in the US working on this technology. Kind of pathetic given the potential.

    25. Re:Is this a closed system? by TooMuchToDo · · Score: 1

      In other words, it's a neat idea that'll probably work in Arizona and Utah, as others have mentioned, but where AC is used the most -- here in the humid Southern states -- evaporative cooling just doesn't work.

      In that case, just go geothermal. You can dump *a lot* of waste heat into the ground very cheaply.

    26. Re:Is this a closed system? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You don't replace any of those things because the problems you imagined do not occur because you do not understand how these machines work. 1) LD machines do not work with table salt, who ever said this was incorrect. They use other (highly corrosive) salty brine solutions of LiCl, LiBr, CaCl2, possibly MgCl. 2) Salt does not make it into the air. It does not evaporate and liquid solution does not make it into the air. It is non-volatile in ambient conditions 3)

      It's really unfortunate that people like you run their mouths about things that they don't understand. No wonder the general public is collectively retarded about energy; idiots like yourself are running around spreading contrary information based on zero understanding of not only the engineering, but the basic physical principles behind the machine.

      Thanks for making the world a shittier place!

    27. Re:Is this a closed system? by evilviper · · Score: 1

      Yes, it uses "salty water" to dehumidify the air. That certainly does not translate into being able to use salt water in the colling portion of the device.

      --
      Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
    28. Re:Is this a closed system? by evilviper · · Score: 1

      The places that have water to spare also have humidity high enough that even this system might not do so well with its evaporative cooling,

      The assertion is that this device will indeed work well in high humidity. Whether that's true or not remains to be seen, but I see no reason for you to assert it's not so.

      and the places where evaporative cooling works best don't have the water to spare.

      Do you have any clue how much water a swamp cooler consumes? It's not a large amount. You'd save more water getting people to shave 1min off their showers. Why do you think they use that tiny 1/4" copper tubing to supply them with water?

      With a rather small portable ("shop") swamp cooler, I rigged-up a 5 gallon tank to feed it where pressurized water sources weren't handy, and found it consuming less than half a tank, while running all day. Obviously, a pair of large whole house coolers will use much more than that, but nowhere near so much that it's going to drain all the rivers...

      --
      Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
    29. Re:Is this a closed system? by Bigjeff5 · · Score: 1

      It's designed for humid climates. If you want to use it in an arid climate you would need something to hydrate the air, like a swamp cooler. That would also boost your cooling power though, which is an added bonus and would probably bring over-all water consumption down, as these things are very efficient.

      You could probably also build an elaborate swamp-cooler + condensor system for it to make it a closed system. That would be tricky.

      Traditional AC's use refrigerants, which are just plain nasty and very expensive, so you'd have to be in an extreme water-shortage area to find them preferable.

      --
      Security is mostly a superstition... Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. - Helen Keller
    30. Re:Is this a closed system? by Bigjeff5 · · Score: 1

      "Swamp coolers" just don't work well in this climate, so I don't know how useful this will be to us.

      You misunderstood, the desiccant-based system is specifically designed for very humid environments. It extracts heat by extracting the humidity out of the air, so you end up with cool, dry air. The desiccant is then heated to release the excess water outside the home. It absolutely must have a humid air source or it won't cool anything.

      Where it doesn't work well is in dry climates. That's why in Tucson they paired it with a swamp cooler - the swamp cooler humidifies and pre-cools the air, the desiccant then extracts the moisture, which cools the air the rest of the way.

      In a humid climate the desiccant can just cool and cool to its heart's content.

      --
      Security is mostly a superstition... Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. - Helen Keller
    31. Re:Is this a closed system? by atamido · · Score: 1

      The humid air introduced into the house is essentially at dew point (if it's lower than dew point, the mesh / jets aren't doing their job forcing the water into the air), so the house will likely be warmer than that, making a few assumptions about the conditions outside. Now, if you had this pre-drier in Alabama, dropping the dew point to 40 or 50, you'd be able to cool the air 20 or so degrees -- about what your air conditioner does.

      It's important to realize that it's not just the temperature of the air, it's the humidity that is a problem. With high humidity, it doesn't matter if the the temperature is 70F. Once you do a little light work (sorting boxes?) and your body temperature rises slightly, you will begin to sweat to cool off. With high humidity, the sweat won't evaporate, so your body doesn't cool, and you sweat more. Some of us don't like to be sweaty all of the time.

    32. Re:Is this a closed system? by Bigjeff5 · · Score: 1

      This is a very old concept, the trick that these guys have managed is to make it simple and cheap to build. The complexity of previous designs is the reason refrigeration was chosen instead of desiccation for AC units.

      It is essentially the exact opposite of a swamp cooler. Where a swamp cooler relies on saturating dry air with water and pushing it through the house to absorb and carry away excess heat, the desiccant cooler dries humid air to drop its temperature and then pumps the dry, cool air throughout the house.

      A swamp cooler is most effective in very dry areas, and virtually useless in humid areas.

      A desiccant cooler is most effective in humid areas, and virtually useless in dry areas.

      In both cases, you can combine the two to get a double-whammy effect - in dry areas, put the swamp cooler in front to pre-cool and moisten the air, and follow it with a desiccant cooler to further cool and dry the air before pumping it into the house. In humid areas, you put the desiccant cooler in front to cool and dry the air, and follow it with the swamp cooler to carry away even more heat.

      From the way they are talking though, the system should be just as effective as a standard AC unit, meaning an additional swamp cooler attached to the dry output for humid areas would be completely unnecessary (and would reduce the efficiency). The only reason a swamp cooler would then be necessary for dry areas is to humidify the air, and it's entirely possible to devise a closed system for that purpose, wasting little to no water at all.

      --
      Security is mostly a superstition... Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. - Helen Keller
    33. Re:Is this a closed system? by Bigjeff5 · · Score: 1

      Minerals coming out of solution tend to form a hard crust, not a dust. It's where hard water stains come from - they definitely don't just rub off.

      If it's powder, it's almost certainly mold, which is not surprising in the slightest since the whole purpose of a swamp cooler is to pump warm air at dew point through the house in order for it to condense out and thereby cool the air.

      Homes in high-humidity areas have serious problems with mold for the exact same reason.

      --
      Security is mostly a superstition... Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. - Helen Keller
    34. Re:Is this a closed system? by SharpFang · · Score: 1

      yes, I remember: 100C pure - 103C saturated. Not so severe impact IMHO.
      If the dessicant isn't dehydrated efficiently it will get diluted beyond absorbing threshold in matter of minutes, hours at most, so it must be possible to concentrate it somehow. Which means using salty water for refill and concentrating it into dessicant should be possible, and likely circulating the water from dehydration back into the system.

      As for your remaining concerns, I'm pretty sure the inventor of the device would be very interested to hear them out. I mean, like, he must have totally overlooked the corrosive properties of sodium salts in his design!

      --
      45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
    35. Re:Is this a closed system? by Spazmania · · Score: 1

      I'm told there are health benefits from breathing more humid air instead of dry desert air,

      The optimum relative humidity for human health is 50%.

      http://www.natural-building.co.uk/microbiological_pollutants.htm
      http://www.tradewinds-at.com/images/optimum-relative-humidity-c.jpg

      --
      Moderating "-1, Disagree" is simple censorship. Have the guts to post your opinion.
    36. Re:Is this a closed system? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Where do we have a shortage of drinking water? Are all these places on the coast? It seems like the cost to truck drinking water into the middle of the dessert would be about the same as the cost of trucking fresh water there.

  6. lithium chloride or sodium chloride? by tyrione · · Score: 0, Troll

    I lost interest at this point. Wake me up when biochemists and medical doctors get a chance to run test case groups about the adverse effects of lithium in their localized atmosphere, typically inhaled into the lungs and later causing one's sense of reality to become skewed.

    Promote better insulation solutions that are efficient and cheap to deploy. It's far easier to regulate a room at a fixed temperature when the control system is properly insulated and thus eliminates the need for A/C. Heat Transfer is a standard course for us Mechanical Engineers and though I do realize billions upon billions has been made by developing HVAC systems [Home A/C] for the average idiot, the average idiot is far better off fiscally making their homes standards efficient in insulation [R30 in the exterior walls, R45-60 [depending on your temperate zone] in the ceiling, R30 in the sub-flooring and a variable speed 95% efficient furnace at 68% year round than they are throwing in a damn A/C solution. The HVAC industry doesn't give two bits about the consumer. This energy savings is a means to sell people more unnecessary A/C at much higher prices when more conventional solutions apply.

    Sell it to corporations. I'm sure they'd love to deploy multi-million dollar HVAC systems rather than bring their buildings up to code.

    1. Re:lithium chloride or sodium chloride? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes because the alternative to the lithium chloride solution is horribly dangerous .. oh wait.

      Besides, who is going to be drinking that stuff? I can't imagine it'd look particularly inviting after being sat there for months and months.

    2. Re:lithium chloride or sodium chloride? by PrinceAshitaka · · Score: 3, Insightful

      And otherr refridgerants like R-134a can also form deadly compounts when the degrade, but since they are in a closed system they can be used. I don't think the researchers anticipated tha eventuality that somone would open up one of thier units and drink the liquid inside.

      --
      quis custodiet ipsos custodes
    3. Re:lithium chloride or sodium chloride? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Your suggestion is hardly a solution for the vast majority of people who cannot renovate their home to meet standards. Apartment superintendents, landlords, and hell even members of your community can throw a wrench in your plans. Even if theres no opposition, renovation still requires licenses, permits and other red tape. $DEITY forbid you live in a "historic" area. Air conditioning is a technological advancement just as any other. Take advantage of it and move along.

    4. Re:lithium chloride or sodium chloride? by Teun · · Score: 1
      Maybe you should have read the rest.

      It does say these dessicants are relatively benign compared to the presently used refrigerants.

      But you are spot on with the rest of your post, proper insulation and appropriate construction techniques would go a long way in limiting the energy consumption of buildings.

      In the mean time we here in N/W Europe we can only hope for weather warm enough to switch off the heating.

      --
      "The likes of Facebook and WhatsApp are free to those whose privacy is of zero value."
    5. Re:lithium chloride or sodium chloride? by Chrisq · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I lost interest at this point. Wake me up when biochemists and medical doctors get a chance to run test case groups about the adverse effects of lithium in their localized atmosphere, typically inhaled into the lungs and later causing one's sense of reality to become skewed.

      Well what about the Sodium Chloride option. People have lived near oceans without adverse effects.

    6. Re:lithium chloride or sodium chloride? by rve · · Score: 5, Funny

      I lost interest at this point. Wake me up when biochemists and medical doctors get a chance to run test case groups about the adverse effects of lithium in their localized atmosphere, typically inhaled into the lungs and later causing one's sense of reality to become skewed.

      In order to get lithium chloride vapor in the atmosphere, one would have to raise the temperature to about 1600 Kelvin at normal atmospheric pressure. Under those conditions, I propose blind panic as a suitable coping strategy.

    7. Re:lithium chloride or sodium chloride? by antifoidulus · · Score: 4, Funny

      I don't think the researchers anticipated tha eventuality that somone would open up one of thier units and drink the liquid inside.

      So if they don't do stuff like that, then whats the point of having grad students?

    8. Re:lithium chloride or sodium chloride? by SharpFang · · Score: 1

      This is not really a closed system though - the hydrophobic membrane can not be 100% efficient. OTOH, you can get a salt water inhalation solutions at a pharmacy, to help with drying up eyes and nose - some salty water in the air may be a positive thing. (still, not the optimal solution for server rooms etc).

      --
      45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
    9. Re:lithium chloride or sodium chloride? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What? I've been drinking kool-aid for years you insensitive clod!

    10. Re:lithium chloride or sodium chloride? by machine321 · · Score: 1

      Well what about the Sodium Chloride option. People have lived near oceans without adverse effects.

      Well, to give you the required car analogy, salty air makes cars rust faster.

    11. Re:lithium chloride or sodium chloride? by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      I eated a pack of silica gel.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    12. Re:lithium chloride or sodium chloride? by Hognoxious · · Score: 5, Funny

      A desert is an ocean with its life undergound, and a perfect disguise above.

      Or is it the other way round?

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    13. Re:lithium chloride or sodium chloride? by KDEnut · · Score: 2, Informative

      Chemist who works with LiCl reporting in (Specifically LiCl enhanced potentiometric buffers).

      I won't be using it in my house for a simple reason: If that "membrane" gets punctured you're going to have one hell of a cleanup cost. I won't even go into the aerosolized effects. Check out any SDS.

    14. Re:lithium chloride or sodium chloride? by KDEnut · · Score: 2, Informative

      That's boiling, yes. But LiCl in water can easily aerosolize. Think Nebulizer treatments on a household scale.

    15. Re:lithium chloride or sodium chloride? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      You need to do more research. You can put R-400 in the walls and it won't help, because you are dealing with a building that has windows and occupants.

      In most places, solar heat gain is a major component that A/C has to deal with. Humidity in the makeup air is also a large problem for A/C to handle.

      Humans inject heat and water vapor into the building through cooking, respiration, appliances, and opening doors.

      Humans also need fresh air, and you can't -- legally or practically -- build an air-tight building without makeup air.... which introduces more humidity and heat into the building envelope.

      I built my house 2 years ago and used all closed-cell spray foam (isocyanate) making all walls, floor, and roof, water-tight and air-tight. 133 mm of foam gives me R-37 in the walls, and more gives me R-60 in the floor and ceiling. All ducting is in conditioned space. All external walls have thermal breaks (offset studs). I have an ultra-efficient water-jacketed earth-coupled geothermal heat pump. The solar gain in the summer still rapes my house with heat gain. The makeup air I have to have because the house is so damn air-tight, uses a high capacity heat exchanger, but still is a water-vapor sieve pumping water vapor into the conditioned space that the A/C has to then remove.

      So do a little more research before you spout off with drivel.

    16. Re:lithium chloride or sodium chloride? by edumacator · · Score: 1, Funny

      Who pissed in your cornflakes this morning?

    17. Re:lithium chloride or sodium chloride? by mprinkey · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Your argument is bogus. R30 fiberglass bats are 9 1/2 inches thick. Are you saying to frame the walls with 2x10s. You know the cost of dimensional lumber increases geometrically with dimension, right. Or do you stagger frame with 2x6s...basically build each wall twice and double your labor costs?

      What about existing structures? Because the US market has enough backlog of existing structures. Do you build another layer of insulation INSIDE the house and lose a foot of floorspace near each exterior wall..and then pay to reframe, drywall, move out electrical outlets, etc? Or do you reframe the exterior of the house and then cover and weatherize your new outside envelope?

      In either case, what about windows and doors? You do know that heat will gladly take a parallel path. Third-year ME heat transfer class...remember the resistor analogy? You can make the walls R300 and the heat will still get in (out) through "holes in the bucket." Have you priced super high R glazing options? Do you want a 8" thick front door? Even in the walls themselves, you have to worry about thermal bridging through the wood studs...all these would be problems even with some crazy aerogel insulation that is R50/inch.

      The building standard is what it is for a reason. It is an engineering trade-off between cost and performance. R30 in the ceiling and either 2x6 walls with R18 or 2x4 walls with R11-12...and maybe a dense insulation board on the outside before siding is installed. Double pane insulated glass windows. Now those trade-offs were in considered with energy and HVAC hardware costs at a certainly level. And more insulation is good but only to the point. The insulation costs goes well beyond the price of the insulation bat, and a point exists where adding more makes no financial sense. If you *insist* on having windows and doors, it doesn't make engineering sense anymore either. Your recommendation is well past that and smacks of niavete. Build or remodel a house or two (especially using your OWN MONEY) and then get back to me. A home built to your bogus specifications would cost four or five times more. I doubt you could find someone to build it for you.

      If you want to look into green houses, then look into earth bearmed homes, rammed earth homes...building underground, using lots and lots of earth as thermal insulation and thermal mass. Folks have been doing this since the 70s and there are books that give some good overviews. I'd like to see the building codes revised to make it easier to build some of these different "hippie" houses.

      And in sunny climates, I think the best ROI would be a 100x100 white canvas tarp and support structure to shade your entire house. I'm surprised no one does that. That would effectively remove the direct radiation load from the cooling...which is significant...just ask your barefeet after a walk across sunlit asphalt.

    18. Re:lithium chloride or sodium chloride? by cynyr · · Score: 1

      To pose a question, why not just stick R60 everywhere? although your windows are not going to be R60 even if they are new. You are also probably far better off installing a ground source heat pump and putting 95% eff. reheat on it(for really cold days) than you are to tack the AC on as an afterthought. Then again, Air is a pretty bad heat transfer medium anyways, maybe in floor radiant heat would be a better idea. Salt water, or mineral oil would be good choices fro the fluid as they have a large thermal mass.

      There are also a large number of homes that were built over 100 years go, and are in historical districts that have codes on the type of construction allowed. so how do you propose to upgrade those houses in place to >R30

      --
      All of the above was encrypted with a Quad ROT-13 method. Unauthorized decryption is in violation of the DMCA.
    19. Re:lithium chloride or sodium chloride? by dbIII · · Score: 1

      The answer just like with power station cooling towers or large aircon installations is DON'T GET THE STUFF IN YOUR LUNGS because there is very likely to be other nasty stuff there as well. Modern society uses a vast array of poisonous materials and instead of waiting for "biochemists and medical doctors" to declare everything safe the adult thing to do is put some form of barrier in place to keep the nasty stuff out of people's bodies.

    20. Re:lithium chloride or sodium chloride? by jackbird · · Score: 1
      Don't forget cordwood masonry. Really only an option for self-building, and likely an uphill journey with your local inspector, but really cool.

      As for the canvas tarp, have you run any wind load calculations on such a structure? That's why. Large trees on the south/west side of the house achieve much the same effect. Radiant barriers inside the attic in conjunction with good venting also have their advocates.

    21. Re:lithium chloride or sodium chloride? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So heating with an electric heating element wont degrade it?

      Contact of 1,1,1,2-tetrafluoroethane with flames or hot surfaces in excess of 250 C (482 F) may cause vapor decomposition and the emission of toxic gases including hydrogen fluoride and carbonyl halides.[9] 1,1,1,2-Tetrafluoroethane itself has an LD50 (lethal concentration for 50% of subjects) in rats of 1,500 g/m, making it relatively non-toxic. However, its gaseous form is denser than air, and will displace air in the lungs. This can result in asphyxiation if excessively inhaled.[10][11]

      Who's the FUCKING MORON now?

    22. Re:lithium chloride or sodium chloride? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, damn that sodium chloride. So dangerous to all life as we know it.

    23. Re:lithium chloride or sodium chloride? by Lumpy · · Score: 1

      It only costs $2000.00 to add a air makeup unit that is an air/air heat exhanger on it. that is almost nothing in the cost of a new home ,yet MOST homes are not built with one because homeowners are not educated enough to make sane decisions on their home design.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    24. Re:lithium chloride or sodium chloride? by Hurricane78 · · Score: 1

      Your straw man arguments fail to make us fall for it.
      We did not talk about lithium chloride vapor to get into the atmosphere, but only lithium. We did also not talk about it having to be vapor. “Dust” suffices.

      --
      Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
    25. Re:lithium chloride or sodium chloride? by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      What about the solvent? I hear they're using dihydrogen monoxide! http://www.dhmo.org/facts.html

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    26. Re:lithium chloride or sodium chloride? by plover · · Score: 2, Funny

      I lost interest at this point. Wake me up when biochemists and medical doctors get a chance to run test case groups about the adverse effects of lithium in their localized atmosphere, typically inhaled into the lungs and later causing one's sense of reality to become skewed.

      Isn't this where the reavers came from? Lithium chloride in the atmosphere to calm the population, caused 99% of the people to give up and die, and sent 0.1% into a psychotic rage?

      Oh, right. That was a science fiction movie. I always get those confused with reality.

      --
      John
    27. Re:lithium chloride or sodium chloride? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not vapor. You don't need high heat to get little droplets of salt mist in the air, just a little wind or agitation--that's why oceans smell salty. Lithium salts are psychoactive, so he has a point.

    28. Re:lithium chloride or sodium chloride? by Andy+Dodd · · Score: 1

      I don't believe NaCl is nearly as effective as a desiccant as CaCl or LiCl is, especially once in an aqueous liquid solution. (NaCl still has some desiccant properties but not much at this point, while I believe CaCl is still a strong desiccant at this point.)

      --
      retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
    29. Re:lithium chloride or sodium chloride? by jbengt · · Score: 1

      Lithium chloride is already commonly used in absoprtion refrigeration and in dessicant systems. It has not proved a health problem.

      One problem it does have: If the heat balance gets slightly off, the equipment "rocks up", that is, you end up with pipes full of solid lithium chloride. If this system were to be deployed widely to residential and other non-technical customers I could see it happening fairly often. Have fun with that.

      TFA didn't really describe the refrigeration cycle being used, but it sounds like the only innovation is the hydrophobic membrane used in the heat exchanger. My guess is that the dessicant removes moisture, which raises the temperature of the air but lowers the wet bulb, and a direct and/or indirect evaporative cooler then reduces the tempeature to reasonable levels. This is nothing new, but is somewhat unusual because it's much easier to buy an off-the-shelf refrigeration system that is cheaper to buy and install and needs comparitively little maintenance.

      TFA was isleading in some ways.
      For one, they muddle the difference between evaporative cooling and dessicant drying. Evaporative cooling adds moisture to the air, exchanging sensible heat for latent heat, reducing the temperature but not significantly changing the overall heat content of the air. Dessicant dehumidification absorbs water out of the airstream which relases heat, raising the temperature of the air in exchange for reducing the latent heat of the air. These are two totally different processes, they can't both happen "all in one step".
      For another, the dessicant cycle requires heat and the evaporative cycle requires water. Neither of those is free, and, pretty charts not withstanding, TFA offers no explanation of how this system saves money, energy, or.the environment. (not saying it doesn't, just that the same natural thrmodynamic limits apply to both mechanical cycles and this cycle, and TFA dioesn't explain how this works better than a good mechanical refrigeration cycle)
      Also, any new A/C system is not going to have CFCs or HCFCs, those aren't allowed in new systems any more. (the new refrigerants still have some global warming potentials, though)

    30. Re:lithium chloride or sodium chloride? by mprinkey · · Score: 1

      Yes, I am doing wind load study. It is all about the shape. Check out the tensile roof at the Denver airport...and that is designed for wind load and snow load. It is certainly possible to build such a thing.

      My pet design projects is an earth-bermed house with a very large "courtyard" that is covered with a tensile roof, likely two layers with a sandwich of R30 between and southfacing opening covered with greenhouse glazing. So, in the summer, the white canvas will reduce the radiative load, the R30 and the thermal mass of the ground will moderate the temperature year round...maybe 40-50s in winter...70-80s in the summer. Then only space condition the earth-bermed rooms around the periphery. I can design it and make sure it works...I can add a few "earth tubes" if I need additional temperature moderation. And with steel wire and proper shaping, I can make sure it holds up. The big task will be getting a building inspector to sign off on it. Of course, I've already convinced my wife that should could garden year-round (in PA) if I built it. So maybe the hard work *is* done.

    31. Re:lithium chloride or sodium chloride? by operagost · · Score: 1
      Or, we can do BOTH instead of setting up straw men and acting like every idea is useless if it doesn't fit into your own preconceived notions. For example, I haven't called you an idiot for not pairing a radiant barrier (which works better in hot climate zones anyway) with your super-insulated system.

      You need to chill out. Maybe you should take some lithium.

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    32. Re:lithium chloride or sodium chloride? by jackbird · · Score: 1

      That's hardly "throw a tarp over a typical single-family home" from your original post. Of course it's possible to build tensile structures, but the cost for a retrofit like you originally described is completely prohibitive from an ROI standpoint.

    33. Re:lithium chloride or sodium chloride? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      People have lived near oceans without adverse effects.

      You have obviously never been to California...

    34. Re:lithium chloride or sodium chloride? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Uh, you might inform yourself as well. Windows can be shaded with overhangs

      BTW, if you look at the physics of your well insulated tight house, there is no doubt that it performs much better than an
      average house. Also look at the difference between HRV's and ERV's .

    35. Re:lithium chloride or sodium chloride? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The old Sturgeon class SSN's had a lithium bromide air conditioning plant in them. It worked fine and did not pollute the air. Put steam in the top, and cold water comes out the bottom. It's not at all obvious how it works.

      LiBr is hard on steel parts, but didn't hurt anyone who wasn't drinking the solution. This invention sounds like an update on that technology. The steam only has to be about 15 PSI, so a decent solar collector could be able to supply that on a hot day. I think Honeywell actually built a solar-powered LiBr AC plant as a demonstration unit. Where it is and what happened to it i don't know. Probably was shut down when oil was $12/barrel in '99.

    36. Re:lithium chloride or sodium chloride? by mprinkey · · Score: 1

      I disagree. Nothing said it has to be permanent. The "tarp" solution could be nothing more than a large scale version of the Sunsetter. Just reel it in when the weather sets in. The ROI for that could be quite good, especially if roof and wall insulation is not easy to improve.

    37. Re:lithium chloride or sodium chloride? by eriks · · Score: 1

      The makeup air I have to have because the house is so damn air-tight, uses a high capacity heat exchanger, but still is a water-vapor sieve pumping water vapor into the conditioned space

      There now exist air-air heat exchangers that also balance humidity -- they are expensive, though from my research, they work quite well. A light-colored roof (and walls) can help a lot too.

    38. Re:lithium chloride or sodium chloride? by jackbird · · Score: 1
      What would you attach it to? The roof peak of a typical 2-story house is ~24 feet off the ground, and you can't have a center pole since the house is there, so you're talking about installing three or four 30-foot poles with foundations that can handle the wind load of a 5,000 to 10,000 sqft sail. You could do a lot of insulation retrofit for that kind of money, or hire specialists to plop a 50-foot shade tree or two on the south side of your house.

      Putting a radiant barrier in your attic (even if you need to add venting too) way cheaper, more neighbor/inspector friendly, and better for you home's value with close enough performance to the overengineered eyesore you're proposing.

      Note that this doesn't mean I have anything but respect/admiration for the berm/tent design you're building; it just seems a little nuts as a retrofit for a typical suburban USian house.

    39. Re:lithium chloride or sodium chloride? by Taxman415a · · Score: 1

      I built my house 2 years ago and used all closed-cell spray foam (isocyanate) making all walls, floor, and roof, water-tight and air-tight. 133 mm of foam gives me R-37 in the walls, and more gives me R-60 in the floor and ceiling. All ducting is in conditioned space. All external walls have thermal breaks (offset studs). I have an ultra-efficient water-jacketed earth-coupled geothermal heat pump. The solar gain in the summer still rapes my house with heat gain.

      Plant some shade trees? I realize that decent size trees aren't that cheap, but if solar gain is your major problem, then perhaps it may have even saved money.

    40. Re:lithium chloride or sodium chloride? by jeffporcaro · · Score: 1

      I don't understand - what is the name of your horse?

      --
      It is not the doing of things that is difficult. What is difficult is getting in the right mood to do them. ~~ Brancusi
    41. Re:lithium chloride or sodium chloride? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      M.A.S.K.?

    42. Re:lithium chloride or sodium chloride? by stonewallred · · Score: 1

      Fucking AC faggot. Since when does a refrigerant come into contact with a heating element in an HVAC system? Protip jackass and the faggot who modded my post flamebait, is that it doesn't. Talk about something you know and not some BS pulled from a wiki that is not relevant to the discussion. When you get your NC H-1,2 and 3's and are a fully licensed contractor capable of doing any HVAC/R in the state from ice machines to 200 ton plus chillers, then come and talk about HVAC/R. Until then shut the fuck up. I refrain from making many comments about tech stuff, since I am not a tech geek. I read, and ask questions, figuring that let the folks who know what they are talking about do the opinionating. I do know HVAC/R faggot, so as I said. STFU.

    43. Re:lithium chloride or sodium chloride? by Bigjeff5 · · Score: 1

      My god, you're right! Quick! We must dispose of all table salt! It's made of highly reactive sodium and extremely toxic chlorine!

      What's that? The ocean is contaminated with trillions of tons of sodium chloride? Heaven help us, we're doomed!

      In case you aren't getting it, I'm making fun of you. In case you didn't catch exactly how stupid I think you are, I'm guessing borderline retarded. At the very least you couldn't possibly have scored more than a 10 on the chemistry portion of your SAT.

      One of the magical properties of nature is that when two parent atoms combine, they form a molecule that is in no way, shape, or form similar to either atom in its elemental state. To take a very related and familiar example (which I also used while mocking you) - the soft, silvery, and highly reactive metal sodium (it literally explodes on contact with water) and the incredibly toxic gas chlorine (a small breath of which can kill you) combine to form a very hard, non-reactive, non-toxic rock commonly known as white salt. Salts are very stable, and very non-reactive. They do separate out into ions in solution, but neither the sodium nor the chlorine are able leave the solution without pairing with its partner element, they are far, far too reactive - as soon as it is about to happen, the sodium will grab a loose chlorine ion or vice-versa. As ions they have interesting properties, like facilitating electron transfers (that's what makes salt water both conductive and allows it to oxidize iron).

      Another neat property of atoms, especially those with either one or two valence electrons or six or seven valence electrons, is that they must always be bonded to other atoms (themselves, other atoms, it doesn't matter, they MUST be bonded). This is handy, because it keeps solid objects - a table, for example - from simply crumbling away into its individual atoms, like carbon. So while it seems that the Li and the CL have separated in the salt solution, in fact they remain bonded - there is no way to pull out the lithium from the solution without getting the Chlorine with it, and together they are non-toxic. It also happens to be significantly more difficult to form a lithium molecule, since it requires a half dozen lithium atoms, than it is to form lithium chloride, which requires only one lithium and one chlorine atom. The net effect is that lithium never, ever forms into lithium molecules if chlorine is anywhere nearby. Since they are in solution together, chlorine is available in perfectly balanced quantities.

      Your straw man arguments fail to make us fall for it.
      We did not talk about lithium chloride vapor to get into the atmosphere, but only lithium. We did also not talk about it having to be vapor. “Dust” suffices.

      The only way to get lithium into the atmosphere from a lithium-chloride solution is as lithium chloride. It's not physically possible without some serious, serious heat and a lot of electricity.

      Want to know how it's done? First, you have to melt the salt. Not an easy task - lithium chloride melts at 1200 degrees Fahrenheit. Once melted, all you have to do is pass a large electric current through it and the gas separates out, leaving solid lithium! Easy! Oh wait...

      Now, what natural conditions in your neighborhood are heating things up to 1200 degrees and passing an electric current through them, I wonder? I can't think of any, and if you can, tell me, so I can stay the hell away. Anyway, find one, and dump the desiccant on it, and you'll have something to be concerned about. Otherwise it is not physically or chemically possible.

      Now, who was it with the straw-man argument again?

      --
      Security is mostly a superstition... Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. - Helen Keller
  7. Is it better than this? by jcr · · Score: 0

    These guys make an evaporative cooler that sends cool, dry air into the building, and saturated air back outside. The only working fluids are air and water.

    -jcr

    --
    The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    1. Re:Is it better than this? by hcpxvi · · Score: 5, Informative

      Sheesh, RTFA, already. They mention the coolerado and explain exactly why this new idea has the potential to do better.

    2. Re:Is it better than this? by Geheimagent · · Score: 2, Funny

      Sheesh, RTFA, already. They mention the coolerado and explain exactly why this new idea has the potential to do better.

      Cause Coolerado uses Flash and TFA HTML5?

    3. Re:Is it better than this? by Calinous · · Score: 1

      Has the potential to do better in hot and humid climates (and might do better in hot and dry climates, although it might be more expensive)

  8. Insulate even in the warm climate! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    For starters, Americans should start insulating their houses better. That would cut the energy costs even more.

    1. Re:Insulate even in the warm climate! by Dutchy+Wutchy · · Score: 1

      From what I have seen, American insulation is leaps and bounds ahead of southern Japan's methods. Single pane windows with poor sealing, the walls are empty, covered with ~1/8th inch particle board, and the area between floors is ventilated to the outside.

    2. Re:Insulate even in the warm climate! by inigopete · · Score: 1

      But are those southern Japanese houses usually air-conditioned? If not, the comparison is irrelevant.

    3. Re:Insulate even in the warm climate! by Dutchy+Wutchy · · Score: 1

      Air-conditioned in summer, heated in winter. Central heating and cooling is very very rare. Usually, only the rooms you are using climate controlled. A Scottish chap commented that his family's home's heating bill for heating their entire house 24 hours a day is equal or less than his wife's family's home's bill for heating only a few rooms part of the day.

    4. Re:Insulate even in the warm climate! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      "Sir, are you aware you were going 120 in a 30 zone?"

      "Yeah, but I saw someone who was going 130!"

    5. Re:Insulate even in the warm climate! by spectrokid · · Score: 1

      Most homes in the US should be able to recuperate an investment in insulation within 4 years. Most stock market traders would bugger their own mother for that kind of a (guaranteed) return.

      --

      10 ?"Hello World" life was simple then

    6. Re:Insulate even in the warm climate! by DeadCatX2 · · Score: 1

      I just recently saw an apartment that I was going to rent. But the windows were storm windows - no primary window at all. Talk about poor insulation! And this is in the US, too.

      --
      :(){ :|:& };:
    7. Re:Insulate even in the warm climate! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Any Japanese woman will tell you that insulating a Japanese house is impossible, because any attempt to do so will ensure that mould infests the house as soon as summer comes around.

      Given the large fraction of Japanese homemakers who have never experienced a summer in a foreign home and the fact that the Japanese power giants are happily selling electricity at near double the US rate, don't expect this mentality to change anytime soon.

    8. Re:Insulate even in the warm climate! by SirGarlon · · Score: 1

      You mean I can break even after only four years? Sign me up!

      --
      [Sir Garlon] is the marvellest knight that is now living, for he destroyeth many good knights, for he goeth invisible.
    9. Re:Insulate even in the warm climate! by Charliemopps · · Score: 1

      They are... when they buy a new house. The problem is far more people buy 20+ year old houses than build new ones. Re-insulating an older house is prohibitively expensive.

    10. Re:Insulate even in the warm climate! by Born2bwire · · Score: 3, Informative

      Americans? I would say that most Western nations like America, Canada, and Western Europe are doing pretty well when it comes to insulation compared to other countries. Hong Kong makes me cringe. Cement walls and large rows of single pane glass windows for residential and most shops have open storefronts with the air conditioning blasting. Given the high heat and humidity, air conditioning accounts for a large amount of energy expenses.

    11. Re:Insulate even in the warm climate! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      **For starters, Americans should start insulating their houses better. That would cut the energy costs even more.

      Yeah, those damned Americans. Everyone knows they're to blame for all the ills of the world.

    12. Re:Insulate even in the warm climate! by jackbird · · Score: 2, Interesting

      That depends. If you're even a little bit handy and have an accessible attic, blowing in cellulose ot fiberglass to take it to R38 or better is only a couple hundred dollars and a day of your time, and should pay for itself the first winter. And if you're repainting a room, drilling holes and blowing cellulose into the exterior wall cavities isn't too bad either.

    13. Re:Insulate even in the warm climate! by Inda · · Score: 1

      My house is over 100 years old I fully insulated it for little cost.

      The fact that the engery generation business must pay for some of it helped a lot, but it would have only cost a few hundred to do it myself.

      --
      This post contains benzene, nitrosamines, formaldehyde and hydrogen cyanide.
    14. Re:Insulate even in the warm climate! by Hurricane78 · · Score: 1

      Perhaps before starting to add the insulation, they should start with building them with actual brick walls, instead of cardboard and toothpicks. ;)
      Or the whole thing might fall apart.

      --
      Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
    15. Re:Insulate even in the warm climate! by tibit · · Score: 2, Informative

      Even re-insulating the walls is fairly easy once you start doing the whole house, room-by-room. The first room is going to be hard, the second much less so, and the third one will be a non-thinker, almost.

      I have recently faced taking off a horrible straw mat wallpaper. After spending 2 hours cleaning up one 4x7' section, it became obvious that taking down the drywall will be much easier. Especially that I had to run some new wire, and I hate unsupported wires just hanging in there; there is a point when patching up drywall takes longer than putting up new sheets.

      With a tiny bit of experience (partial gut of a small half-bath), for two people working together I estimate taking down all wall drywall in a 10x20' room in one evening (6pm to 11pm) -- starting with a clean room with no furniture, and ending with a clean room with no drywall. Putting up the drywall would take say two more evenings, plus one evening for hauling the materials home from the store. Another evening for taping the joints and patching up all the screws. Then figure three partial evenings to prime and paint. You could be done in a week, and if you start on Monday, you should even have most of your Saturday and Sunday free -- painting won't take long with a sprayer.

      If you have to re-run plumbing/electrical due to the age of the building, I'd figure another 2 evenings per room. So that gives you sort of a baseline to estimate how long things should take. Advance planning is key, and unless you are very close to a home improvement center, you definitely don't want to keep going to the store every day.

      Depending on the home's layout, you may want to leave some walls exposed until the job is mostly done, if there are convenient places to run the wires/pipes to a central location.

      All the costs you will incur, assuming your time is free, are for materials -- and drywall and insulation are not particularly expensive. Of course I assume that you have all the necessary tools, but if you're clever about it you can get everything you need for such a job, starting with no tools at all, for $1k or so.

       

      --
      A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
    16. Re:Insulate even in the warm climate! by jackbird · · Score: 1
      I hear you, but the thing is, you don't really want to encourage people who don't know what they're doing to be dinking with their electrical and plumbing (especially both at the same time!) Not only is there the risk of a house fire/flood their insurance won't cover, but running afoul of the building inspector (in jurisdictions where homeowners aren't supposed to touch the machanicals), or needing to call a pro to fix a botched DIY job is expensive.

      Also, while any schmo can patch 2" holes with a joint knife and a bucket of compound, rehanging and taping full sheets of drywall requires a lot more competence, upper body strength, and access to a pickup truck or larger.

    17. Re:Insulate even in the warm climate! by name_already_taken · · Score: 3, Interesting

      You mean I can break even after only four years? Sign me up!

      Generally that's true in older, poorly insulated homes. In more recently constructed homes (10 years old or less) adding additional insulation will have a longer payback period. That is, if the builder actually insulated the home as required. Most screw it up somewhere.

      On the other hand, the 1920s portion of my home was made significantly warmer last winter with about $50 worth of cans of expanding foam sealant.

      The 1990s portion was built with really good insulation, and there's just not much to be gained there. Some, but not much.

      I am considering temporarily pulling some of the attic insulation out so I can seal all the tiny holes in the electrical boxes above things like light fixtures, and seal the boxes to the ceiling board. Supposedly the small amount of airflow leaking from these fixtures adds up to a significant heat loss, and the only expense to fix it is a roll of foil tape used on the backside of the boxes.

      Since I have a gas forced-air furnace for heat, which uses air for combustion, I'm going to install a cold-air intake on the outside of the house with insulated duct all the way to just outside the furnace cabinet. The first year we were in this house I noticed cold air coming into the basement - it was being pulled down the balloon-framed walls all the way from the attic, because the furnace burner creates a low pressure area in the basement. The cold air also had a side effect of cooling the walls as it flowed down to the basement. Cost for the cold air intake should be under $50. I expect it to pay for itself in the first month of winter.

      --
      Putting moderation advice in your .sig lowers your karma!
    18. Re:Insulate even in the warm climate! by Neil+Sausage · · Score: 1

      You can be ticketed for going too slow for the flow of traffic, even if you're driving within the speed limit and everyone else is not.

    19. Re:Insulate even in the warm climate! by Firethorn · · Score: 1

      Keyword here: Apartment. When they're not going to be paying for the electricity for it, the owner often doesn't care.

      There's always outliers.

      --
      I don't read AC A human right
    20. Re:Insulate even in the warm climate! by gknoy · · Score: 1

      I imagine you're much less likely to be ticketed for going 65 in a 65 zone (while most everyone else is going 75) than you are for going 85 in the same flow of traffic. No matter what the flow of traffic is, if you are going over the posted speed limit, you are by definition breaking the law, so you'll have a hard time fighting it in court. That, and tickets in many places scale with how far over the speed limit you are, so the faster driver is at times a more lucrative target.

    21. Re:Insulate even in the warm climate! by tibit · · Score: 1

      Of course I'm not encouraging any "schmo" to attempt such a job. First you should read up on the codes, and make sure you understand. I have ME and EE background -- that helps. Also, luckily I live in a place where homeowners can pull electrical/plumbing/HVAC permits for modification jobs and do those things themselves.

      The biggest problem I see is that almost *anything* done more than a few years ago is most likely not code compliant, so to sleep well you have to spend more money than is immediately apparent, even if a modification might otherwise not require upgrading the whole circuit to bring it up to code. Those AFCIs aren't cheap, you know...

      --
      A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
    22. Re:Insulate even in the warm climate! by wonkavader · · Score: 1

      Umm... is his wife Japanese?

    23. Re:Insulate even in the warm climate! by Rural · · Score: 1

      America and other former UK colonies tend to have much worse insulation than continental Europe (at least the colder parts).

    24. Re:Insulate even in the warm climate! by adolf · · Score: 2, Informative

      Lots of higher-efficiency furnaces already have a spot to tie an intake plenum into place. My current ancient house uses black 2" ABS pipe for intake and exhaust. My previous ancient house used 2" PVC for exhaust, and had nothing for intake, like yours. It wouldn't have been obvious to me that it was designed to support a dedicated intake line if I hadn't read the book for that particular unit, but the fittings were right there if one knew to look for them. (I never did hook that up, because we were having some real flooding problems, and the bloody thing was getting replaced on average every six months, anyway. But that's a different story.)

      On my current furnace, this intake plumbing goes straight to the combustion blower. There's also a valve in-line in the basement that is supposed to open up in the event that the outside intake becomes clogged with birds or snow or something. The old furnace was a lot different, in that the intake plumbing would have simply vented into the furnace's housing instead of directly to the blower, but the housing itself was pretty well gasketed and sealed up so it was essentially the same thing.

      And in any case, everything should slope down toward the furnace, so any condensation or moisture that occurs in these lines will find its way out through the condensate drain on the furnace rather than sit around and be annoying.

      I'd be wary about intentionally installing a leaky pipe near the furnace as an intake. It seems like a good idea, but without a system to contain the airflow, any pressure differential (from wind, say) between the rest of the house and the basement will create draft, whether the furnace is running or not. You'd go from having a predictable loss some of the time, to having an uncontrolled loss all the time.

      But, meh, anyway. I'm pretty sure I'd lose a lot more heat through using the clothes drier, the bathroom exhaust fan, and the range hood, than the bit of air the furnace uses for combustion.

  9. The key to TFA by dtmos · · Score: 4, Informative

    "By no means is the concept novel, the idea of combining the two," Kozubal said. "But no one has been able to come up with a practical and cost-effective way to do it."

    Or, maybe,

    Inventing a device simple enough for easy installation and maintenance is what has impaired desiccant cooling from entering into commercial and residential cooling markets.

    As TFA states, desiccant cooling has been known since at least Carrier's work at the turn of the 20th Century. The trick has always been to make a practical desiccant cooling system.

    1. Re:The key to TFA by SharpFang · · Score: 1

      > The trick has always been to make a practical desiccant cooling system.

      NREL has patented the DEVap concept, and Kozubal expects that over the next couple of years he will be working on making the device smaller and simpler and perfecting the heat transfer to make DEVap more cost effective.

      which means it still is not practical... or at least practical enough.

      --
      45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
    2. Re:The key to TFA by dtmos · · Score: 1

      Exactly.

    3. Re:The key to TFA by modulo · · Score: 1

      I thought I saw something on TV about 10 years ago using zeolites, this PDF mentions it http://www.nrel.gov/vehiclesandfuels/ancillary_loads/pdfs/heat_cooling.pdf

      --

      ...but the language is MUMPS, which I will not utter here

    4. Re:The key to TFA by SleazyRidr · · Score: 1

      I don't really get how this works at all. Surely the heat to refresh the desiccant would perfectly balance out the cooling effect of evaporation?

  10. Are you planning on paying? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Are you going to fund that for my 1930's construction? It will require opening up the walls and upgrading all the electrical and plumbing along with the insulation. It will also require the removal of the roof. If you are willing to pay 100% of the cost then I say we have a deal. If not then you are not being realistic.

    1. Re:Are you planning on paying? by BKX · · Score: 1

      You're making it out to be much more expensive than it actually is. If you really have 1930's construction, then insulating your home would be relatively easy and cheap. Between each pair of studs in your wall (and, possibly, ceiling if you have no attic) a hole is drilled and the gap is filled with a ground newspapers and phone books. Then you repair the holes. It has quite good insulating properties and is relatively cheap. The 1930's status of your construction actually helps, since you won't have firebreaks to drill under. (Newer construction has a row of vertical studs, called a firebreak, halfway up the wall the prevent fires from spreading as quickly.)

    2. Re:Are you planning on paying? by Ritchie70 · · Score: 1

      Do you perhaps mean a row of horizontal studs?

      --
      The preferred solution is to not have a problem.
    3. Re:Are you planning on paying? by jackbird · · Score: 1

      He might be justifiably terrified of blowing ground-up paper at high speed onto degrading fabric-insulated, ungrounded 120v wiring, no matter how much boric acid is mixed in. Shorted neutrals are fucking scary. Not sure what he means about the plumbing, though, unless he's waiting for his homeowner's insurance to replace his immenently failing pipes.

    4. Re:Are you planning on paying? by Lumpy · · Score: 2, Informative

      A better way is self expanding foam, it will even insulate homes that have the crappy 1st gen fiberglass batting. it just requires COMPETENT installers so they dont put in too much and burst the walls.

      I did an entire 2100 sq ft home for less than $2200.00 that included adding an extra 18 inches of fiberglass batting to the attic. My heating bills dropped from $210 to $80 a month in the winter with a 25 year old 55% efficient furnace. this summer that get's replaced with a 90% efficient furnace.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    5. Re:Are you planning on paying? by Critical+Facilities · · Score: 1

      Do you perhaps mean a row of horizontal studs?

      Do you perhaps mean joists?

    6. Re:Are you planning on paying? by MiniMike · · Score: 1

      Or, wait until the siding needs to be replaced and put a shell of insulation around the outside of the house, and a wrap (i.e. Tyvek) if still necessary. Obviously this won't work if you have brick, or anything other than siding. You can insulate the walls from the inside, but there will probably still be gaps and holes everywhere. You can leave your scary 1930's wiring and plumbing in place. It would probably make sense to wait until the roof needs major repair to upgrade it, since you'll already be paying to have it removed. Or just throw some insulation up wherever you can easily for a partial solution.

    7. Re:Are you planning on paying? by operagost · · Score: 1

      Clearly, before starting any insulation project you have to upgrade any knob-and-tube wiring. Even if it's in good condition, it requires air flow to stay cool.

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    8. Re:Are you planning on paying? by AvitarX · · Score: 2, Informative

      I have a house with a similar system (just purchased).

      My first house had an 80's correctly sized boiler with natural gas. It was a 1200 sq ft row home.

      It cost me more to heat than my new home (both built 1928), with foam blown in and real attic insulation. The new home had a fifties, very oversized, oil boiler. The new home is 1400 sq ft, and both had similar windows (old windows with storm added). At the time gas vs oil was similar per/BTU.

      --
      Wow, sent an e-mail as suggested when clicking on "use classic" banner, and got a fast response that addressed my msg
    9. Re:Are you planning on paying? by AvitarX · · Score: 1

      Epic typo.

      It cost me more to heat the old home, with far less exterior wall (row home), than the new one.

      Jeez I can be stupid.

      --
      Wow, sent an e-mail as suggested when clicking on "use classic" banner, and got a fast response that addressed my msg
    10. Re:Are you planning on paying? by Ritchie70 · · Score: 1

      No, I do not.

      The GP said "a row of vertical studs" when referring to firebreaks, which are short pieces of stud-material that run parallel to the floor, halfway up, inside the wall. The intent is to stop/slow fire from spreading quickly up inside the wall.

      Those are clearly not vertical. They are horizontal. Hence my post.

      Joists are horizontal boards that support floors (and perhaps roofs, I'm not sure about that.)

      --
      The preferred solution is to not have a problem.
    11. Re:Are you planning on paying? by Critical+Facilities · · Score: 1

      Ah, you're right. I admit, I read your post quickly, and assumed (incorrectly) that you were trying to communicate that he ought to put insulation between the joists (as well as between the studs), and were using the term "horizontal studs". My mistake, sorry about that.

  11. Calcium chloride not sodium chloride!!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    but it doesn't matter, its still years away from practical
    NREL has patented the DEVap concept, and Kozubal expects that over the next couple of years he will be working on making the device smaller and simpler and perfecting the heat transfer to make DEVap more cost effective.

  12. Dr. John Gorrie by dtmos · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Few people have heard of the true inventor of both air conditioning and the artificial ice machine, Dr. John Gorrie, of Apalachicola, Florida, who received the first patent (number 8080) for a machine to make ice, on May 6, 1851. While it was reduced to practice (he used it to cool the rooms of his fever patients, and gave iced drinks to his guests at parties -- a fantastic novelty in 1850s Florida) he was unable to make a financial success of the venture. His machine was the first to make use of the refrigeration method of air conditioning.

    1. Re:Dr. John Gorrie by stonewallred · · Score: 2, Informative

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willis_Carrier Think this is the guy you are looking for. An ice maker, which didn't work very well does not in any stretch equal air conditioning. And the idea of evaporative cooling, using liquids other than water, was done by a dude using ether dripping through a small hole to produce cooling.

    2. Re:Dr. John Gorrie by dtmos · · Score: 3, Interesting

      If you visit the John Gorrie Museum State Park in Apalachicola, Florida, you'll learn more about Gorrie than what is on the web. For example, he employed forced-air distribution of the cooled air by means of vents into multiple rooms, much as central air conditioning systems do today.

      As it happens, while he started work on an air conditioning system to help his fever patients, he moved to ice production as a quicker way to market. At that time, people used ice for cooling when necessary, so there was an existing market and distribution system for it. However, the ice was shipped from the North, and thus very expensive, so there was a ready market for an ice machine making inexpensive ice.* The idea of central air conditioning was a bigger conceptual leap for the times, especially since there was no electrical grid and motive power would have to be supplied by steam engines, which would make the central cooling of buildings very expensive.

      By the time Carrier arrived, in the 20th Century, the economics had changed; the electrical grid, combined with a ready industrial need for refrigeration, made all the difference -- as did his location: Carrier was from New York.
      ________
      *He thought; in reality he was "a hick from the sticks," without the funding needed to bring his invention to market, and was never able to complete with the entrenched power of the ice companies of the day -- who, of course, saw the ice machine as a threat to their existing businesses and did all they could to discourage him. Recall that there were no venture capitalists at that time; if you were a struggling inventor you either had the backing of wealthy friends (Gorrie didn't), or you got a government grant to support your work (as Samuel F. B. Morse had done with the telegraph a few years earlier). The building animosity of North vs. South that would soon lead to the Civil War didn't help matters, either; he was a Southerner, while the potential financial backers (and the ice companies) were all in the North.

  13. It's not either/or by stomv · · Score: 2, Insightful

    If you're building new, modern building codes result in a more insulated space. In my opinion modern codes -- even those in CA or the "stretch in MA or the base points in LEED -- aren't aggressive enough, but they're far better than existing conditions in most buildings. Of course, the same opportunities exist for major remodeling or work on the exterior.

    Sometimes, though, the mechanical unit needs to be replaced, and quickly. In those cases, would you prefer that this new AC not exist (assuming they work out any chemical safety issues)? For spaces which are currently being used, the interruptions caused by upgrading the building envelope may be intolerable, a non-starter. In those cases, would you rather this new AC not exist?

    You're absolutely right -- improving the insulation and air-sealing of our building stock would have a remarkable impact on our energy use. Still, this new AC system, if it works as advertised, can be applied to buildings for which an insulation and air-sealing upgrade simply isn't in the cards in the near term.

    Adding another tool to the belt isn't a bad thing, as long as we continue to use the right tool for the job. Building codes will help ensure that we do.

    1. Re:It's not either/or by Lumpy · · Score: 4, Informative

      no they dont. 4" exterior walls are common now. it USED to be 6" was required for exterior walls. but contractors wanted to increase profit margins clamored to make houses more "shitty".

      Homes should also be sheathed with 3/4" plywood instead of the craptastic fiber board they use now. I've been doing high end installs of whole house audio in $1,000,000+ homes on the side for 5 years now. Home construction has went down hill quite a bit from the late 80's where you had to have good construction quality.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
  14. This method has been used for centiries by norteo · · Score: 1
    1. Re:This method has been used for centiries by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In India, clay pots have been used for 1000s of years to cool water during summer.

    2. Re:This method has been used for centiries by SharpFang · · Score: 1

      now capture the evaporated water back into the bottle and we're home.

      --
      45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
    3. Re:This method has been used for centiries by Namarrgon · · Score: 2, Informative

      That's plain old evaporative cooling, and doesn't work too well in humid climates. TFA describes a method that combines evaporative and dessicative cooling in a novel way, without that disadvantage.

      --
      Why would anyone engrave "Elbereth"?
  15. The heat goes in... The heat goes in... by kd3bj · · Score: 1

    Heat from air evaporates water to cool air; heat from natural gas evaporates water from desiccant. Where does all this heat come out?

    1. Re:The heat goes in... The heat goes in... by Joce640k · · Score: 2, Informative

      In the street, just like every other air conditioner in the world.

      --
      No sig today...
  16. Pointless by drsquare · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    People will just run it longer, or leave their windows and doors open all the time, to make up for the energy savings.

    1. Re:Pointless by ScentCone · · Score: 1

      People will just run it longer, or leave their windows and doors open all the time, to make up for the energy savings

      You're right. There's no point in doing anything, ever. We should all just die. Also, you hate your parents, right? Because they wouldn't get you the bigger iPod?

      --
      Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
    2. Re:Pointless by delinear · · Score: 1

      I don't think people run air conditioning just to burn a set amount of energy. They run it to feel comfortable and if an advancement helps them reach that point more efficiently, all the better. There will be some edge cases (people who might otherwise not have turned on the air conditioning because they were only a little warm and it costs a lot to run), but overall if savings really are anywhere near 50-90% this should more than compensate for those cases. As other people have pointed out, there are bigger issues here than people just running the AC a little longer.

  17. No solid-state? by Twinbee · · Score: 1

    That's all well and good, but I'd rather see efficiency advances in solid state cooling (quieter, more reliable, often smaller...)

    --
    Why OpalCalc is the best Windows calc
  18. Not just insualation, setting reasonable temps too by Shivetya · · Score: 1

    I keep my house at 78 in the summer, I have ceiling fans in all the rooms I frequently use in the day. Throw in nine foot ceilings and it is very comfortable; especially when compared to the 90+ high humidity days we have in Georgia. Last year my highest bill in the summer was $140. This is four thousand square feet of home. Granted the other electrical costs are pretty low because of CFLs everywhere, a LED based projection tv - we only have one tv, and Macs/Pcs that sleep often.

    That compares to some friends of mine who burn through $300 or more per month in the summer to keep the same or smaller homes; sometimes half the size; at ridiculously low temperatures, like 72. Throw in lights on everywhere it seems if not a TV or two both running and it becomes easy to see that insulation alone won't help. Most laws in recent years require much higher R value for homes but behavioral changes must also take place. People need to want to conserve. Children especially need to learn conservation in schools in ways that does not lead to being combative at home.

    Encourage good behavior by allowing people to opt into reduced rates for sensible living. This means power meters than not only record usage but can record how its used, as in knowing what temperatures you set and such. Some regions already offer reduced power costs if you elect to lose power during certain periods to reduce the load on the whole system but it doesn't help when the behavior of those who use power inefficiently.

    --
    * Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
  19. Spelling by TeknoHog · · Score: 1

    It must be hard to spell the word "desiccant" correctly, especially after you have just copied the correct name (Desiccant-Enhanced eVaporative air conditioner) from TFA.

    --
    Escher was the first MC and Giger invented the HR department.
  20. Isn't that "old" tech? by RichiH · · Score: 1

    We are getting a new AC system in our DC in a few weeks and this sounds pretty much exactly like the things they do.

    Can someone enlighten me, please?

  21. And the *best* part... by DoofusOfDeath · · Score: 1

    Is that we'll all have this in 3-5 years!

  22. Adsorption coolers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    Adsorption coolers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absorption_refrigerator) are far better as they use water as a coolant and heat energy from solar panels. In fact, they consume only electrical energy for the controlling electronics...

  23. Want to learn about corrosion the hard way? by vlm · · Score: 0

    The liquid dessicant, a very strong aqueous solution of lithium chloride or sodium chloride

    The dessicants are, compared to typical refrigerants like HCFCs, relatively benign on the environment.

    Hah Hah Hah Hah. Maybe if you're a bacteria that lives in the dead sea. Everyone else would be screwed. Imagine the environmental costs of making everything in a house to naval ship standards (and this isn't a joke about "being full of sea men"). Imagine the environmental costs of every cheap pine wood stud or steel stud having to be replaced with something "seaproof" like teak or a good grade of marine stainless steel (not the stuff that cracks in chlorine). Imagine the environmental costs of replacing every electrical device within 6 months of purchase or having to run everything in stainless steel conduit so the inside of the house looks like the inside of a WWII submarine (which, personally, I think would be cool, but the average HGTV viewer would freak out, which is probably why I think it would be cool). It will leak and inevitably destroy everything in the house, at extreme environmental cost. But, hey, if it "saved" a hundred watts here and there, I guess thats just great.

    --
    "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
    1. Re:Want to learn about corrosion the hard way? by OneAhead · · Score: 1

      That's just silly. One property of salts it that they don't go airborne easily; it's thermodynamically unfavorable. Do coastside houses look like submarines? I think not.

    2. Re:Want to learn about corrosion the hard way? by Nf1nk · · Score: 1

      I live in a beach house. My toaster rusts. Everything I have rusts.
      I deal with this by buying less expensive stuff and budgeting for replacements.
      This would not be acceptable for my office.

      --
      I used to have a cool sig, back when I cared
  24. Re:Not just insualation, setting reasonable temps by stonewallred · · Score: 1

    My home stays 70 degrees at 50-55% RH year round. My power bill runs about 150-175 a month. My gas bills runs about 65-75 a month from late Oct to late Feb. Here in the next year or two, I will go ahead and have either a couple of cooling wells drilled or DIY a trench system for a geothermal HP. I am still using a 10 SEER HP and 90% propane converted furnace. But then again, I spent good money and a lot of effort installing insulation when building, and making an optimal duct system, along with using ERVs. I spent close to 9 grand 4 years ago when building, on HVAC/insulation. The average home owner would pay around 15 to 20K for the same set up. Owning an HVAC/R company does pay off at times.

  25. Wow...... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...that's cool.

  26. lithium mmmmm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    good to know that lithium chloride is benign.
    "For a short time in the 1940s lithium chloride was manufactured as a salt substitute, but this was prohibited after the toxic effects of the compound were recognized"
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_chloride

    Manufacturing and operation are the "low end" of the risk. What happens when they get put on the curb or go in landfills en masse. Because they will....

  27. You can- and should- do better than that. by dfenstrate · · Score: 1

    As a fellow mechanical engineer, I would have preferred you considered more practical matters, along with cost-benefit and time value of money considerations before you shot your mouth off. Either that, or not mention you're a Mechanical Engineer.

    Other responders have covered these things adequately, so I won't repeat them.

    --
    Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms should be the name of a store, not a government agency.
  28. Design the building better by Midnight+Thunder · · Score: 1

    If there is a possibility of creating a passive system over and active system, I would go with the passive system.

    Part of the problem is that buildings aren't always designed with their geography or climate in mind. One solution I have seen for passive cooling of a building is a Wind Catcher ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windcatcher ). Also, depending on geography you could add natural plants to help provide shade. None of this sounds as sexy as a high-tech AC unit, but it is probably much more cost effective and lower maintenance.

    I am not sure what solutions there are for existing buildings, but I would be interested in hearing about some.

    --
    Jumpstart the tartan drive.
    1. Re:Design the building better by B5_geek · · Score: 1

      Check out earthship.org.

      http://earthship.com/buildings/global

      These are constructed using 100% pasive heating/cooling in mind utilizing old tires as a thermopile/heatsink. They are also designed to incorporate water recycling, solar/wind power generation.

      --
      "The price good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." ~Plato (427-347 BC)
  29. Cost of desiccant? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What I noticed was the lack of any mention of the cost of desiccant, or how to reuse it. A sealed AC unit may have 13 pounds of hydrocarbons, but, unless something goes horribly wrong, all these chemicals are tightly contained. An AC system can also reuse these CFCs indefinitely, while the desiccants have a finite water absorption amount.

  30. Since I'm sitting here sweating, yet again by Rogerborg · · Score: 1

    I'd rather have an air-con that works at 50% efficiency 95% of the time than one that works at 95% efficiency 50% of the time.

    Given how long we've had to get regular aircons working, and how badly we seem to FAIL it, I think it'd be a great idea for everyone else to try out this wonderful new technology. Maybe get back to me in 20 years or so to tell me how it worked out for you.

    --
    If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
  31. OK, but when??? by hesaigo999ca · · Score: 1

    All these stories about things to come out, how about a story once where you hear your local hardware store now HAS this new air conditioner ready for you to buy, and save 50, to 90 percent energy....then I will be interested...seriously , this has got to stop!

    Breaking news> A scientist came up with a new idea last week to help with global warming,
                                                    has it written down on paper...more news at eleven....

  32. Still room for improvement by elij · · Score: 1

    Fact: The most efficient air conditioning system is hiring one of the millions of out of work Americans to walk around and fan you 24 hours a day. Even the Amish would buy into it.

    --
    hello world
  33. Desiccant reuse? by OhlenEC · · Score: 1

    What I noticed was the lack of any mention of the cost of desiccant, or how to reuse it. A sealed AC unit may have 13 pounds of hydrocarbons, but, unless something goes horribly wrong, all these chemicals are tightly contained. An AC system can also reuse these CFCs indefinitely, while the desiccants have a finite water absorption amount.

    1. Re:Desiccant reuse? by Tacvek · · Score: 1

      Really? The desiccant being used is brine based on salts like calcium chloride. Any water from the air that becomes liquid while touching the solution will become part of the solution. witha suffiently high humidity level water molecules in the air is more likely to spontaneously condense near the brine, and mix with it, than for molecules in the brine to spontaneously become gaseous and leave (a.k.a. evaporate), since the later requires more energy than the former provides.

      So with sufficiently humid air, water tends to leave the air for the brine. Now, that means that the brine becomes less concentrated over time, and becomes a less efficent dessicant.

      Like most desiccants there are two ways to reuse it. One is to heat it, the other is to expose it to sufficiently dry air. In this process, you heat it, as the summary mentions.

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    2. Re:Desiccant reuse? by jbengt · · Score: 1

      The dessicant is easily re-used: Simply heat it to drive the water out and reuse it.

    3. Re:Desiccant reuse? by jfengel · · Score: 1

      In this process, you heat it, as the summary mentions.

      And how much does that cost?

      I'd imagine it's the sort of thing you could get for free/cheap if you were clever, using solar heat to heat it and a fan to re-cool it back to ambient temperature once it had concentrated. (You'd need to get it cool again or it would be a lousy desiccant, which is precisely why it was heated in the first place, to drive off the humidity.)

      If you had to use energy to desiccate it, I suspect you'd end up with a zero-sum game. (Negative, presumably, it being mechanical.)

      It also sounds like a messy process, the kind where things crystallize and clog pipes and otherwise fail in the ways that mechanical objects like to.

    4. Re:Desiccant reuse? by Tacvek · · Score: 1

      The desiccant process be done by removing some amount of the brine, boiling excess water away in a separate tank, which then lets it cool to the exterior ambient temperature, and finally pumps it back into the main system. Also remember that heating is generally considered far cheaper than cooling, so the heating is not really the concern.

      Honestly, I would be more concerned that if blowing air though a wet screen cools it (or rather it cools the water, which cools the evaporating pad which cools the air, then doesn't the process of removing the moisture also heat the air? So You first remove the moisture to make the evaporative cooling process more efficient, but by doing so you heated the air? that does not sound right. I'm probably missing something here, but I really cannot remember my fluid physics well enough to figure out what it is.

      --
      Stylish sheet to fix many problems in Slashdot's D3: https://gist.github.com/801524
    5. Re:Desiccant reuse? by jfengel · · Score: 1

      So You first remove the moisture to make the evaporative cooling process more efficient, but by doing so you heated the air?

      Seems to me that if you remove that to a separate heat exchanger, you do heat and humidify the air, but you heat it some place you don't care about. Much the same as the air conditioning part of the system, in fact, though it will increase the size and complexity of the system.

      Doing it all efficiently seems like a challenge, but if it produces more cool air for less money (it's brutal where I am today), I'll take it.

    6. Re:Desiccant reuse? by Tacvek · · Score: 1

      Sure, but what about If you ere using a disposable dessicant? If the evaporative cooler cools the air by causing a phase change of water from liquid to gas, increasing entropy but decreasing temperature, wouldn't the phase change of water the desiccant causes which is from a high entropy state (gas) to a lower entropy state (liquid), require increasing the temperature to compensate, so the net entropy change is no longer negative, which would violate the second law of thermodynamics?

      That is what I am having trouble figuring out. But as I said, It has been a long time since i studied the physics of fluids, and even that study mostly ignored the physics of solutions, which is definitely relevant here.

      --
      Stylish sheet to fix many problems in Slashdot's D3: https://gist.github.com/801524
    7. Re:Desiccant reuse? by jfengel · · Score: 1

      I think the goal here is to use the dessicant JUST as a dessicant, separate from the heat pump aspect of the evaporative cooling.

      But within that evaporative cooling system, you've got the right idea. You use a fluid (not water, but something with a lower evaporation point) that evaporates when exposed to the room air, cooling it. Then you pump that gas outside and recompress it, heating it (quite hot, well above the outside air temperatures) but liquifying it.

      The trick is that you then let it cool to the outdoor temperature using nothing more than a fan. It's heating up the outdoors, but you don't much care about that. You can then pump the liquid back inside, where it will evaporate again.

      There's a net increase in entropy but you've produced cooler temperatures where you want them, inside. It cost you energy to produce it, in the process of compressing it.

      You can use a similar system with the desiccant liquid, only you're no longer concerned about the phase change. You can use the outdoor heat to drive off the extra liquid it's absorbed, then let it cool. This all happens outside, rather than inside; your "hot" zone is easily solar heated with black panels, and the "cool" zone has white panels and a fan. The hot zone is well above ambient temperature, and you're using the temperature differential to produce dry (or drier) desiccant. You can then pump the desiccant back to where it can absorb humidity inside the house.

  34. Propane efficiency by vvaduva · · Score: 3, Interesting

    How does it compare with efficiency of propane cooling? For the foreseeable future propane will continue to be created by oil industry, regardless of the idealism of some environmentalists, so it will continue to be used in homes for heating. For cost-saving purposes, propane fridges and freezers are being used quite often in remote areas - they are also extremely efficient. I am curious how the two systems compare in efficiency.

    1. Re:Propane efficiency by jbengt · · Score: 1

      You don't even want to think about the building code issues having to do with using a flammable refrigerant.

    2. Re:Propane efficiency by anomaly65 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I use a combo of propane(phase change coolant), butane(lowers pressure), and isobutane(carries oil through system) in my home central air (standard compressor/condensor & evaporator type found in US homes). It's roughly 25% more efficient overall than the toxic HCFC's (R22/R410a) due to much lower head pressure. Environmentalists should love it as propane has about 99% less GWP in the case of a system leak. and no patents to bother with!

      If you're thinking of the very old style absorption coolers (boiler, condenser, evaporator and absorber), which requires continuous burning of propane, that method isn't very efficient by comparison. The primary usefulness as you mention is typically due to a lack of electricity in remote areas. absorption chillers cost more to operate than electric chillers. They also cost about twice as much to purchase. Back in the 1920's/1930's ammonia was used in these systems, and leaks were quite toxic to the residents.

      If you have an industrial "waste heat" source, absorption coolers may be useful (no need to burn additional fuel).

    3. Re:Propane efficiency by vvaduva · · Score: 1

      That's fascinating. Did you design it yourself, and do you have any plans or suggestions on how to transition a traditional AC system to propane?

    4. Re:Propane efficiency by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My hunting cabin just got a propane fridge this last year. Man that thing is nice, though I do have to say that living in that bus is getting less and less like 'roughing it'.

      (Our traditional fridge was 'put that stuff next to the wall that doesn't have much insulation').

    5. Re:Propane efficiency by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Look up absorption cooling - very inefficient.
      A COP (coefficient of performance), typically of less than 1.
      Electric driven (mechanical compressors) can have COPS > 12.

    6. Re:Propane efficiency by anomaly65 · · Score: 1

      Actually, under the EPA rules (I hold an EPA HVAC license here in the US) there wasn't much to consider design wise.

      I utilized all standard R-22 AC components, but instead of utilizing R-22, I purchased a "mix" (http://www.es-refrigerants.com/ ; no affiliation, just a customer for more than a few years) and installed according to directions. This was done after an electrical brownout burned up my old system in late 2008.

      Replacement system was identical in size and efficiency rating, but I'm seeing lower electric bills as a result.

      The "best bet" (not advertised) is to do the math correctly for charge amount, and to have a TXV (thermal expansion valve) on the system (standard on many newer systems) to regulate flow into the evaporator (cool side coils). My system charge was less than 4lbs of coolant.

      I always get the safety question, but there's a natural gas line going into the furnace already with a lot more supply than the charge in the AC system!

      http://www.refrigerantsnaturally.com/home.htm is a good location for info, and members include mcdonald's, cocacola, the UN environment program, etc.

    7. Re:Propane efficiency by jbengt · · Score: 1

      Your point is well taken, but your math is off.
      Efficient mechanical A/C: EER 14 = COP 4
      Efficient absorption A/C: COP +/-1

    8. Re:Propane efficiency by evilviper · · Score: 1

      Environmentalists should love it as propane has about 99% less GWP in the case of a system leak. and no patents to bother with!

      I was enthusiastic about propane as a refrigerant as well, but after a couple years of seeing automotive accidents (which breach the condesner) and random idiots trying to repair or disassemble A/C systems, I can see the wisdom in having non-flammable refrigerant as the standard.

      --
      Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
    9. Re:Propane efficiency by anomaly65 · · Score: 1

      Hi Evilviper,

      couple items to consider:
      flash point of R134a is lower than most propane mixes, in other words, more flammable. Both R134a and propane (tried to light a BBQ grill with the mix not quite right?) are difficult to ignite.

      There's another 10-20 gallons of hydrocarbons in the gas tank. Again, order of magnitude more worrisome. You can actually toss a match into an open container and the usual result is the match is extinguished.

      lesson is, unless the mix of oxygen and either refrigerant is just right, ignition is highly unlikely.

      http://www.refrigerants.com/msds/r134a.pdf however does cause testicular "bumps" ;-)

      As required by EPA regulations (in the US at least) proper labeling is a definite must.

      All that said, I've personally seen far more house and car fires caused by electrical problems than hydrocarbon issues. (there's a great mythbuster's episode on the subject too).

      Cheers,
      andy

  35. Sex by SmallFurryCreature · · Score: 2, Funny

    Remember, separate your grad student: Females under the desk, males on the dissection table.

    --

    MMO Quests are like orgasms:

    You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.

  36. Except it won't work in where you need AC by MrData · · Score: 1
    Typical ... read the article a bit and you will see it only works in drier climates where evaporative cooling systems work.

    But in areas where you need Air Conditioning (i.e. cooling + humidity reduction) in a humid climate it is useless (i.e. Gulf Coast, deep south, Florida). And this area is where the bulk of energy use is used for (indoor) climate control.

    So why don't researchers work on a solution for the 80% that could use it instead of the 20% where it doesn't matter ?

    Maybe we need to move their labs out of AZ, CO, and CA down to TX and FL and only allow them to use their own inventions to cool the lab.

  37. Sorry, I don't believe your story! by Hurricane78 · · Score: 1

    For me the basic rule for chemicals is, that if I don’t know if it’s good or bad, then it’s bad until proven good.
    And lithium chloride definitely is more in the bad area than in the good one.
    I’m not going to get in a room with that stuff, until all effects and all cross-reactions are studied and proven to be OK by trustworthy sources.

    --
    Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
  38. Benign, but not good for you.... by davidwr · · Score: 1

    "Honey, we are out of Gatorade, and by the way, did you get my prescription filled?"

    "No, just tap into the air conditioner line, it's okay if we are hot for a day or two."

    --
    Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
  39. So whos going to right the first by JohnnyGTO · · Score: 1

    Instructable, my York is on it's last legs!!

    --
    Si vis pacem, para bellum! For evil to succeed good men need only do nothing!
  40. Re:Not just insualation, setting reasonable temps by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    yea right, try that with a newborn and see how far it gets you...

  41. This is the Way to go About Golbal Warming by sycodon · · Score: 3, Interesting

    This is a perfect example of how any approach to reducing the carbon should be handled.

    Instead of brow beating everyone into paying more for less and prattling on about the environment and how we are all going to die, just make a device that accomplishes what you want while making it cheaper for the consumer.

    Reduce Carbon, impact "global warming"...sorry, "climate change", pay more = boring, politically charged, scam written all over it.

    Reduce cooling costs 50%-90% = Where can I buy one NOW!?!

    This is what you call a win-win.

    --
    When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    1. Re:This is the Way to go About Golbal Warming by sycodon · · Score: 1

      WTF doesn't Firefox spell check stuff in the subject line?

      --
      When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    2. Re:This is the Way to go About Golbal Warming by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, this is what you call "vapor-ware". Literally.

    3. Re:This is the Way to go About Golbal Warming by SatanicPuppy · · Score: 1

      Eh. There is no magic bullet. You'd be surprised at how often people resist even obvious innovations. I just got my attic re-insulated, and I heard from every damn neighbor the same tired crap: "What, you don't have insulation? (I do, but it's old and only about 4 inches thick at this point)" "What, you cold?" (because insulation only keeps heat IN, apparently)

      800 bucks worth of insulation, and my heating bill dropped 30%. Should pay for itself before fall.

      --
      ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
    4. Re:This is the Way to go About Golbal Warming by Nadaka · · Score: 1

      because it is a input type=text field and not a textarea

    5. Re:This is the Way to go About Golbal Warming by mathmathrevolution · · Score: 1

      yeah, f*** those scientists and their "golbal warming". If scientists were so smart then where is my carbon neutral car????

      As an American, I believe the role of scientists should be to enable me and my fellow fat ass countrymen to live a cloistered, ignorant life of immense ease and comfort. Frankly, the lure that all my problems will be magically solved by scientists is the only reason I can tolerate all those people who think they are so smart.

    6. Re:This is the Way to go About Golbal Warming by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      No, as another poster said, this is vaporware (and not in a good way). Evaporative cooling only works in very dry environments. Inventing an improved version of a swamp cooler isn't going to make it effective in a humid environment.

    7. Re:This is the Way to go About Golbal Warming by sycodon · · Score: 1

      OK...read the summary carefully...especially this part...cools air using evaporative cooling, which is not new, but combines the process with a liquid dessicant for pulling the water vapor out of the cooled air stream.

      If that doesn't work for ya, then RTFA.

      All that said, you are right that it is vaporware in the sense that you can't pick it up at Home Depot yet. But it appears the theory is sound.

      --
      When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    8. Re:This is the Way to go About Golbal Warming by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If fuck heads like you had not killed nuclear power 40 years ago, all this would probably be moot right now.

    9. Re:This is the Way to go About Golbal Warming by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      And it dry the liquid desiccant out using free energy. At least the energy required is not accounted for in the 50-90% savings.

    10. Re:This is the Way to go About Golbal Warming by squiggleslash · · Score: 1

      just make a device that accomplishes what you want while making it cheaper for the consumer.

      Aw wow! *slaps forehead* If only I'd known it was that SIMPLE!

      --
      You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
    11. Re:This is the Way to go About Golbal Warming by sycodon · · Score: 1

      OK smart ass...

      The principal is that simple.

      Example...LCD panels reduce electricity consumption and decrease cooling costs. Do people buy them because they help mitigate "climate change"? No, they buy them because the panels help cut their expenses.

      If you come to me yelling and screaming that I need to stop what I'm doing and just sit in a corner because of climate change, I'll just tell you to fuck off.

      If you come to me with a solution that make it easier and less expensive to do something (and BTW happens to help mitigate climate change), I'll buy it.

      If you take all the time, money and effort the Jihadists are expending trying to take us back to the stone age and apply it to coming up with solutions (which you all say is possible), then you will achieve your goal sooner than you would otherwise.

      --
      When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    12. Re:This is the Way to go About Golbal Warming by Bigjeff5 · · Score: 1

      'Cause.

      It's not a text box.

      --
      Security is mostly a superstition... Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. - Helen Keller
    13. Re:This is the Way to go About Golbal Warming by squiggleslash · · Score: 1

      Example...LCD panels reduce electricity consumption and decrease cooling costs. Do people buy them because they help mitigate "climate change"? No, they buy them because the panels help cut their expenses.

      There are so many things wrong with your example that it's not funny.

      LCD panels took many decades to develop. They weren't something that could be developed in a short period of time at little expense.

      Their popularity never had to do with cutting costs. The momentum behind LCD panels for desktop computers began at a time when LCD panels cost typically four or five times the price of a much "better" (larger, higher resolution) CRT. When LCDs started to take off, the cost of a standalone 15" 1024x768 LCD was around $400, vs around $50-100 for an equivalent CRT, and around $150-200 for a 19" 1280x1024 CRT. While CRTs use more energy than LCDs, the notion anyone would save $300 in electricity bills over a two or three year expected use of such a device is questionable.

      Why did LCDs take off? Because the reduced glare and flicker, the better (to most eyes, I appreciate it's still a matter of controversy) color, the more consistent resolution, and lighter, smaller, shape of the LCD was infinitely preferable to the giant, flickering, blurry, CRTs.

      LCDs took off because of issues entirely unrelated to their energy consumption. That they saved energy was a happy accident, not a conspiracy by green monitor makers. It was almost a matter of luck that we didn't get stuck with plasma instead (LCDs had an edge for high resolution/high density displays because they needed to be used by laptops.)

      It's not easy to create a technology that's unambiguously cheaper to run due to its energy efficiency and that large enough numbers of people will buy. The only example I can think of would be the CFL, where people have bought slightly more expensive CFLs knowing that they'll pay for themselves several times over. Even then, to get CFLs used by a majority, several governments have taken steps to ban incandescents.

      Hybrid vehicles remain ultimately so much more expensive than their gas guzzling cousins that there are still relatively few of them on the road. They remain a small subset of the vehicles sold, and despite recent energy shortages, people continue to buy very inefficient vehicles regardless of income. Travel by air remains the default in the US, because the cost of producing a viable high speed rail alternative is simply astronomical and will take decades to do in an environment where people care more about the deficit than our ability to pay it down in the future, and because other, more efficient, alternatives, such as airships, will also take decades to fully develop, and may never be successful.

      Yes, it's always a good thing that someone can produce something that does the same thing as something else, but uses so much less power it's more efficient in the long run. But in the majority of cases, it's not easy to do, and proposing it as a solution to our energy problems is a non-starter. To deal with our energy issues, we need a systematic approach, that deals as much with the causes of energy use as the technologies we use. Until we do so, we cannot pretend we're taking the energy issue seriously.

      --
      You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
    14. Re:This is the Way to go About Golbal Warming by drsquare · · Score: 1

      Reduce people's AC costs and they'll just spend the money on something else that's even more polluting. The only way to solve carbon emissions is to charge for externalities. And not just for carbon but for all externalities in the economy. If course this ironically will have the free-marketers bleating about losing their de facto subsidies.

    15. Re:This is the Way to go About Golbal Warming by sycodon · · Score: 1

      There is nothing Free Market about imposing artificial costs. And make no mistake, these are artificial, made up costs.

      --
      When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    16. Re:This is the Way to go About Golbal Warming by sycodon · · Score: 1

      You obviously don't remember the power crunch that CA went through. It is common knowledge for anyone who was paying attention that companies were switching wholesale from tubes to LCSs because at the rates they were paying, the could save $300 a year. Plus, tubes generate much more heat the LCDs so their cooling costs dropped dramatically.

      they cut expenses then and they cut expenses now.

      --
      When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    17. Re:This is the Way to go About Golbal Warming by drsquare · · Score: 1

      Paying for your externalities is not an artificial cost, not paying for them is an artificial subsidy. If I make money by dumping chemicals into a lake, and don't pay for it, I'm being subsidised by everyone who suffers from it.

    18. Re:This is the Way to go About Golbal Warming by sycodon · · Score: 1

      I believe that every time you post on slashdot that the space time continuum is damaged, thereby risking a rupture in the fabric of space itself. So...you should pay $53 every time you post to mitigate the damage. Which, by the way, we will spend on more domestic programs and handouts.

      Or, you can just pay me 30 cents every time you exhale.

      The "cost of carbon emissions" is made up. There is no real incurred cost. My exhaling, driving my car, or smoking a brisket over a wood fire does not take any money out of your pocket.

      --
      When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
  42. ready techonlogy that can save upto 50% by Prodigy+Savant · · Score: 1

    ok, here's easy technology to get your domestic AC to consume about 50% less. All you need to do is continuously spray your radiator with water. This can be recycled via a tub sitting under your AC.

    All the benefits of both technologies and you chill all the way to the bank :)

    --
    Dont make a better sig, you insensitive clod!
    1. Re:ready techonlogy that can save upto 50% by havardi · · Score: 1

      Make sure it is distilled and you'll probably want to clean it often anyway with acid. Calcium build up will destroy your unit pretty quick.

  43. Interesting article, but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    not for sale yet. It is . . . vaporware.

  44. No, it's a firebreak by name_already_taken · · Score: 2, Informative

    Do you perhaps mean a row of horizontal studs?

    Do you perhaps mean joists?

    Neither. The horizontal pieces between the studs are called firebreaks. They are there solely to slow fire down and help prevent it from spreading between building floors vertically through the wall stud space. They don't serve much mechanical structural purpose, but they do also help prevent vertical cold air flow inside the walls which helps the insulation (fiberglass insulation doesn't stop airflow, it just filters out the dust).

    The 1920s portion of my house does not have any firebreaks in two of the exterior walls, as it's built using so-called "balloon framing" which used long vertical studs that run continuously from the rim beam on top of the foundation all the way to the attic. Because of this, cold air can flow down the walls from the attic in winter. I've injected firestop foam into strategic parts of the wall to stop this, as I found some parts of the interior wall surface were below freezing last winter.

    --
    Putting moderation advice in your .sig lowers your karma!
  45. Who's the baby? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    yea right, try that with a newborn and see how far it gets you...

    Human babies and their ancestors survived the least 100,000 or so years without air conditioning, and continue to do so in most parts of the world.

  46. Gov patent not public domain? by laughingskeptic · · Score: 2, Insightful

    "NREL has patented the DEVap concept ... Eventually, NREL will license the technology to industry"

    I thought that inventions that we all paid for with our taxes were public domain. How is it that this government lab will be licensing this technology?

  47. NOT 50-90% more efficient by sheepofblue · · Score: 2, Interesting

    This is another typical over statement. They calculated the efficiency without including the energy that is required to reverse the desiccant used thus the calculation is misleading at best and really just a lie. This seems to be a trend that started with "zero emissions" cars that had the electricity magically appear.

    Believe it when you see calculations based on a closed loop system as I am betting that the efficiency advantage will tumble a LONG way.

    1. Re:NOT 50-90% more efficient by havardi · · Score: 1

      Did you also notice the graph was labeled "cooling" energy yet displayed a 12 month calendar. The evaporative cooler had nearly zero energy usage during the winter months, for some reason. /s

    2. Re:NOT 50-90% more efficient by JSBiff · · Score: 1

      "This seems to be a trend that started with 'zero emissions' cars that had the electricity magically appear."

      In that case, I think it's legitimate. Why? Because it is at least theoretically possible to generate electricity in ways that generate no emissions. I think we'll get there someday (maybe some mix of fission, fusion, wind, solar, geo, hydro, etc).

      When solving a problem, you have to solve it one piece at a time. An electric car really does produce zero emissions (that is, the car itself). That's step one. Now, we need zero emissions electricity. If you have zero emissions electricity, and a "zero emissions" car, you have (almost) solved the problem (the last set of problems being to make sure that no emissions are released in the manufacture or building of the power plants, extraction/refining of fission or fusion fuel, no emissions in the manufacture of the materials that the cars and power generators are made from, construction/transport/installation of solar panels, wind turbines, powerlines, etc.

      But, at least we have one component (the car itself, in operation) which doesn't cause any emissions.

    3. Re:NOT 50-90% more efficient by sheepofblue · · Score: 1

      But if the car consumes electricity in an inefficient manner and the grid you use has high loses from an inefficient power plant then it might create MORE emissions. If you want feel good physics that is fine, but I prefer reality. The reality is that the car consumes energy that DOES come from an emissions generating source and you have merely concentrated the quantity at one place and for most green madness victims this also starts a NIMBY fight to eliminate that source. This A/C unit IS NOT as efficient as claimed but they are pumping the numbers up to fish suckers in so they can make a crap load of money from their patent. This is becoming a common practice as the smug people multiply.

    4. Re:NOT 50-90% more efficient by stereoroid · · Score: 1

      That's what I think too: as the dessicant absorbs water, it loses its effectiveness, so could say you have to "recharge" it so that it can absorb more water. The bad news is that that process will be more energy-intensive in humid climes, since you'd have to heat the dessicant to a higher temperature to get water vapour to leave it quickly enough. The good news is that those humid climes tend to have more sunlight, and thus more scope for using passive solar heating for this job. Someone needs to build a complete system and experiment over a full year, I think, before they start claiming energy savings.

      I was looking at other NREL pages, and this one takes a more general look at the use of dessicants in HVAC. One possibility that intrigues me is their use in less humid climates over a complete year cycle: allow them to absorb water to dehumidify the air in summer, then heat them to release the water vapour in winter, to humidify the air. I used to work in an office here (Dublin) with an AC that worked OK in summer, but would dry the air out badly in winter. The relative humidity would drop as low as 20%, so people were feeling cold even though the temp was 25C (77F), and suffering problems with dry eyes and skin. The Irish HVAC people clearly didn't understand the need to control relative humidity at ~50%.

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      (this is not a .sig)
  48. Oh come on by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    I hear you, but the thing is, you don't really want to encourage people who don't know what they're doing to be dinking with their electrical and plumbing (especially both at the same time!) Not only is there the risk of a house fire/flood their insurance won't cover, but running afoul of the building inspector (in jurisdictions where homeowners aren't supposed to touch the machanicals), or needing to call a pro to fix a botched DIY job is expensive.

    Also, while any schmo can patch 2" holes with a joint knife and a bucket of compound, rehanging and taping full sheets of drywall requires a lot more competence, upper body strength, and access to a pickup truck or larger.

    Based on your recommendations, I am going to abandon my precision engineered abode and live in a cave.

    Be reasonable. Drywall may be messy, but it's not exactly an engineered science. Anybody who isn't an invalid can do it.

    1. Re:Oh come on by jackbird · · Score: 1

      Sure, anyone can do it, but having everything plumb/square, putting the holes for outlets in the right places without big gaps that negate the nice insulation you just installed, making the seams look nice, and not ruining your carpet in the process is more effort and learning curve than many are willing or able to put in.

    2. Re:Oh come on by russotto · · Score: 1

      Sure, anyone can do it, but having everything plumb/square, putting the holes for outlets in the right places without big gaps that negate the nice insulation you just installed, making the seams look nice, and not ruining your carpet in the process is more effort and learning curve than many are willing or able to put in.

      When the professionals get those details right, then you can complain about suggesting people do it themselves. Professional = getting paid for the job = (too often) will take any shortcut which reduces time on the job.

  49. That's quite a range by AthleteMusicianNerd · · Score: 1

    You're salary will be $5000 - $200,000 per year. Would you like the job?

  50. Publicly owned patents by DaveKAO · · Score: 1

    FTA:

    "NREL has patented the DEVap concept, and Kozubal expects that over the next couple of years he will be working on making the device smaller and simpler and perfecting the heat transfer to make DEVap more cost effective.

    Eventually, NREL will license the technology to industry, "We're never going to be in the air conditioner manufacturing business", said Ron Judkoff, Principle Program Manager for Building Energy Research at NREL. "But we'd like to work with manufacturers to bring DEVap to market and create a more efficient and environmentally benign air conditioning product." "

    Anyone else bothered that a publicly funded organization now owns a patent to this 'new' technology?

    1. Re:Publicly owned patents by JSBiff · · Score: 1

      As a taxpayer, I think I'd be somewhat happy if they managed to generate some residual revenue to re-imburse my tax dollars spent on this. Why should the share holders of G.E. (or whoever ends up making these units) be the only ones to see any profit off this, if it's publically funded?

      I *suppose* that there could be a counter argument that, since the government gets to collect sales (although that's usually local/state governments - I don't think there's any federal sales tax in the U.S.) and income/profit taxes, that the government will be making some revenue off the sales of such units, anyhow. However, the problem with that is that companies are great at finding ways to not pay nearly as much tax as their sales would indicate they should be. A patent makes the revenue much more direct and mandatory. Lost money this year? Made large contributions to non-profits? Don't care - you still gotta pay your royalty

  51. Re:lithium chloride or *CALCIUM* chloride? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The fine article calls for Lithium Chloride or *CALCIUM* Chloride. Sodium Chloride is table salt, and will not work (in a liquid dessicant system).

    The two salts mentioned are hydrophilic, and will pull moisture out of the air. They are in solution in this system to make it easy to transport them; pumps are more durable than scoop shovels.

    The big difference in this system is that the dessicant solution is used to extract humidity from the air, thus lowering the wet bulb temperature. This DRY air is then the input to a swamp cooler,
    which can now produce cold air (lower temperature than the outside dew point/wet bulb temperature.) The dessicant solution eventually gets too dilute to pull water from the air, so it must be regenerated
    by heating the solution above the outside temperature, and letting the outside air take the evaporating water away.

    The other trick they use is a two-pass evaporative cooler (see Coolerado) that divides the input airstream into parts, cools the first portion with evaporation of water, making cool wet air, and then using a heat
    exchanger to use this cool air to lower the temperature of the other portion of the input air to get cool dry air. Cool and dry goes inside for air conditioning, and wet warm air is exhausted outside.

    So far, this system is just putting an industrial dehumidifier in front of a swamp cooler. BUT those dessicant salt solutions encourage corrosion, so the dehumidifying front-end has to be made of plastics,
    fiberglass, glass and materials that tend to be less durable in a vibrating environment (hey they are next to a huge fan that is moving all the air for the building!) Even the pump has to be corrosion-proofed,
    and is usually made with titanium...
    The real innovation seems to be that instead of spraying the salt solution into the airstream and then using baffles and filters to keep the salt out of the output air, they are dripping the solution down a water
    repellant membrane, and letting the air pass by these larger droplets as the run down the film. No tiny spray droplets to filter out, so the whole thing tends to be robust and cheaper to build.

    Overall, the system looks very good for improving the reach of the Coolerado type cooling to more humid environments. And you CAN buy the Coolerado now with an EER of up to 66 (yes, that is better than
    any refrigerant based air conditioning that is 'good' when it has an EER of 12.)

  52. Re:Not just insualation, setting reasonable temps by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "People need to want to conserve ..."

    I guess that's why YOU have a 4000 square foot house, HUH ?

    Next time you look in the mirror, say "hello, hypocrite".

  53. Salt solutions != sodium chloride by meta · · Score: 1

    From the article: "highly concentrated aqueous salt solutions of lithium chloride or calcium chloride"

    From the summary: "very strong aqueous solution of lithium chloride or sodium chloride"

    Dumbed down too much.

    --
    Sometimes they fool you by walking upright.
  54. Salty Air is highly corrosive by littlewink · · Score: 1

    As anyone who lives in a coastal area knows, the salty sea air will rust steel severely. Cars, cooking gear, electronics are all vulnerable and short-lived in such areas. So it is a necessity that they do a good job of preventing any salts from becoming airborne.

  55. R-Values. by Firethorn · · Score: 1

    R30 fiberglass bats are 9 1/2 inches thick

    True, but fiberglass is far from the best insulator we have. Today I'd argue spray foam is the better choice in most cases. Natural vapor barrier and no air leaks.

    Aerogel insulation would be neat, but isn't yet commercially practical. Then again... R-50 per inch (10x foam).

    Fiberglass, loose-fill: R2.5-3.7/inch, Batts: R3.1-4.3
    Foams: R3.6-7

    When I get around to building my own house, it's going to be a low energy cost one, but even I'll admit that I'll be sacrificing a few rooms worth of floorspace to get it...

    --
    I don't read AC A human right
    1. Re:R-Values. by mprinkey · · Score: 1

      I am a proponent of insulation and building a house from scratch make it possible. In fact, I'd argue FOR double framing walls with 2x4s outside and 2x3s inside with an insulation (and wiring and plumbing) gap, rather than framing with 2x6 (to code). If you stagger them, you can avoid the thermal bridging in the wall studs.

      But I still insist that the doors and windows are more expensive and persistent problem, both thermally and economically. Maybe that R50/inch foam will fix the door issue. But the window problem is still there, unless you live in a cave.

      And I think you will see that earth berming will help more than any of the insulation options you've mentioned. The proper goal for future housing should be figuring out how to get light and open feeling architecture that works with earth berming and working out cheap efficient dehumidification.

    2. Re:R-Values. by Firethorn · · Score: 1

      In fact, I'd argue FOR double framing walls with 2x4s outside and 2x3s inside with an insulation (and wiring and plumbing) gap, rather than framing with 2x6 (to code). If you stagger them, you can avoid the thermal bridging in the wall studs.

      Personally, I was going to go with Insulating Concrete Forms for the outside...

      Earth Berm has it's own problems.

      Maybe that R50/inch foam will fix the door issue. But the window problem is still there, unless you live in a cave.

      True, but there are tricks even with windows, especially if you get everything else to R-50 levels w/thermal mass.

      Dehumidification isn't an issue in my area; Heating is the primary concern. Build a structure that retains heat well enough, go with a buried air exchange(probably need a tower away from the house tall enough to avoid being buried in snow), etc... Have to put the exchange pretty deep, but in the middle of winter 'barely freezing' is better than -30. Then just use an actual heat exchanger to bring it up into the 60s.

      --
      I don't read AC A human right
  56. Lithium distribution. ALL units end in land fills. by Fantastic+Lad · · Score: 1

    Even if the runoff water from this AC unit isn't filled with toxins, then AC units have life spans, which means pretty much every unit they ship is going to end up in a land fill or dump somewhere. So, sure, this is about making cold air and saving energy, (if the press release is truthful), but it's ALSO a clever scheme for invisibly distributing a rarefied psychoactive substance used in anti-depressant medications into ground water.

    And everybody sure loves air conditioning! We're talking millions of gallons of this stuff over a few years.

    Combined with the billion or so cell phone and laptop batteries which are currently and ever-so-quietly leaching lithium into the environment, I do pause to wonder why the government is so eager to exacerbate this situation.

    -FL

  57. Build your Own by havardi · · Score: 1

    C'mon guys, this isn't rocket science. Keep it modular and keep it off-the-shelf, right?

    First stage, convert a regular evaporative cooler to pump the dessicant solution instead of water. It just needs to be highly corrosive-resistant. Now your incoming 100F air at 40% RH is now like 120F at 10% humidity or something like that. Hotter, but drier.

    Next, you need a heat exchanger to pull some of that energy out without adding humidity. Adobe Air makes a modular product to do this. Or, you can skip this piece and get a two-stage evap such as the OASys. Or just insert a Coolerado here.

    Finally, to really get cool temperatures, we need to add water back in. If you inserted a two-stage unit above, you're done. Otherwise just use a regular-ole evaporative cooler here.

    Since we actually want to make this feasible without vast quantities of free energy, we will recharge the dessicant in a more sustainable manner. Obtain two empty swimming pools. The first pool is for the dry dessicant, the 2nd pool for the wet dessicant. After the cooling season, use a small solar concentrating array to recharge the dessicant pool. It'll take all winter but that's fine.

  58. TX is way too humid... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...in most parts of the state during the summers for any kind of evaporative AC to work efficiently . Even here in north central TX, where it has been around 100F or higher for almost the past week, and forecast to hit 105+ the next couple days, we're still having +80% relative humidity. In fact it's already 92F and 85% right now at noon. The only places in where it is a "dry heat" during the summer are those parts of extreme west and southwest TX near the NM border, and the population density is very low out there.

    Also, by the time such DEVap AC systems are commercially produced, they'll likely be very expensive to buy because mostly of:

    1) The technology is patented and the patent holders will want to get rich off them.
    2) The energy savings will be substantial, and any big system that is much cheaper to operate than its competition, will be priced as high as the market will bear, because the makers of teh systems will want to get rich off them.

  59. Vaporware by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    > The DEVap system (Desiccant-Enhanced eVaporative air conditioner) cools air using evaporative cooling, which is not new, but combines the process with a liquid dessicant for pulling the water vapor out of the cooled air stream.

    Sounds like vaporware to me!

  60. Years by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This method has been in use for years to dehydrate food completely without using heat.

    Put desiccant in a sealed chamber with food. Food dehydrates slowly in ultra-low humidity environment.

    Profit!

    There are some species of mushrooms that need to be dried completely to be preserved long-term. Some of those cannot be exposed to heat without breaking down the chemicals that they are cultivated for.

  61. Most of this is not new by wonkavader · · Score: 1

    The idea of using a salt-based desiccant and heating it to release the water has been around for a long time. The liquid aspect of that desiccant, and the permeable membrane seem to be the new ideas, here.

  62. Shouldn't lithium be recyclable? by JSBiff · · Score: 1

    I'm not sure I've actually heard of any large-scale commercial recycling efforts (other than, I think, Toyota recycles the batteries for their hybrids), but shouldn't lithium (from batteries, electronics, and evaporative air coolers) be recylable? It's not like the lithium is destroyed by use - it simply ends up in different compounds, right?

    Why not just recycle it?

  63. buy one?... thats not the ways things work here by cdpage · · Score: 1

    First, we find a new technology that will make a HUGE impact.
    Second, we find ways to introduce it piecemeal over a 5 year period... such as find ways to make said new technology less efficient... Once we figure that out,
    Then and only then can we begin production working our way up to 50% over the 5 year term.
    After that, we look for a new technology to compete and confuse the consumer while we ramp up to 90% efficiency.

    So, you see you're not getting a new Air conditioner that will use 50%-90% less energy in the next year or so... You MIGHT get one that one next year that uses 10-15% less energy if your lucky...

    It'll also cost you 20%-30% more.

  64. Isn't this the plot in a Mel Gibson Movie? by Virtucon · · Score: 1

    Wasn't there a Mel Gibson movie? One where he's an eclectic inventor who comes up with a refrigerator and moves to Central America with his family? I don't remember the entire plot but I think something happens and then the refrigerator winds up polluting the river.

    Yeah, I know, not a memorable Mel Gibson flick... but it did follow an Apocalyptic ending, which is the genre for most of his films.

    --
    Harrison's Postulate - "For every action there is an equal and opposite criticism"
    1. Re:Isn't this the plot in a Mel Gibson Movie? by mark_osmd · · Score: 1

      No, that was "Mosquito Coast" and the inventor was played by Harrison Ford and not Mel Gibson

    2. Re:Isn't this the plot in a Mel Gibson Movie? by Virtucon · · Score: 1

      Okay, Thanks for the clarification. But wasn't it along the same lines?

      --
      Harrison's Postulate - "For every action there is an equal and opposite criticism"
    3. Re:Isn't this the plot in a Mel Gibson Movie? by mark_osmd · · Score: 1

      Yes, H.Ford's character is an inventor and packs up his family and leaves the US because he thinks that the US and modern society is doomed. They go live in the jungle in South America and he builds a ice machine for the natives..various bad things happen.

    4. Re:Isn't this the plot in a Mel Gibson Movie? by penguinchris · · Score: 1

      You may also be interested in the film Fitzcarraldo, which also involves an eclectic European inventor who comes up with an ice-making process and brings it to South America. I haven't seen Mosquito Coast but I guarantee you will enjoy Fitzcarraldo a lot more.

  65. Dessicant reaction by russotto · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Calcium chloride is interesting: put a pan of it in a humid room and it dissolves in the water it absorbs. But it also gets hot when it does so, which would seem to defeat the purpose. I wonder how they get around that problem.

    1. Re:Dessicant reaction by havardi · · Score: 1

      You're right, it gets hot, but they use an evaporatively cooled heat exchanger to remove this heat. So it literally is a heat pump.

  66. It isn't evaporative cooling; adsorption chiller by Colin+Smith · · Score: 1

    They're using a dessicant to pull water out of the air thereby reducing the humidity. It sounds more like an adsorbtion chiller but using liquid rather than solid dessicants. They've been around for donkeys years but are expensive.
     

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  67. skip it; go geo-thermal by WindBourne · · Score: 1

    Seriously, geo-thermal HVAC is the RIGHT way to go.

    --
    I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
  68. Chlorides? Hello? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Lithium Chloride is a salt - formed with weak ionic bonds. Chlorine will escape at a fairly rapid rate. MUCH more so than it does from the covalent bonds in CFCs, which are highly durable by comparison. Since it is CHLORINE that has been liberated from CFCs that was supposedly killing our Ozone, this seems to be an amazingly dumb-headed idea.

    OH, and BTW - the reason that the Ozone hole isn't closing - *could* have something to do with the millions of gallons of Chlorine bleach we use in our laundry every year - virtually ALL of which escapes into the atmosphere.

    The only reason that CFC's were singled out is that environmentalists are genocidal racists who wanted to cause mass starvation in the third world by raising the cost of refrigerating food in order to protect habitat for wildlife.