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Apple Sues HTC Again Over Patents

Posted by samzenpus on from the litigation-pie dept.

recoiledsnake writes "Apple is suing HTC again over patent infringement. Apple is adding two new patents to the 20 included in the earlier case while adding additional details to two patents included previously. Although Android is not mentioned in any of the court documents, many of the patent infringement complaints refer to the software rather than the hardware that HTC manufactures, leading to speculation that Google is the real target, especially considering that Android sales are surpassing the iPhone's. With HTC countersuing Apple, Microsoft siding with HTC over Android, and Apple trying to stop import of Nokia phones, it seems like Apple has set off a patent Armageddon in the mobile space."

34 of 263 comments (clear)

  1. I hope they win by YA_Python_dev · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I hope every single fucking patent lawsuit for smartphones in the US succeeds. So HTC, Nokia, Apple, Motorola, all the Android phones and pretty much everyone will be prohibited from selling smartphones in the US.

    Maybe it would be the time that you fix your stupid patent laws that allows software to be patented (most of the patents involved in this shit, especially to most wide-reaching ones and more difficult to avoid, are software patents).

    --
    There's a hidden treasure in Python 3.x: __prepare__()
    1. Re:I hope they win by __aaaaxm1522 · · Score: 3, Informative

      Yeah, I gotta agree with this. Of course they're all suing each other - the only people to make money from this are their lawyers and why *wouldn't* they take advantage of the patent system?

      Also: Apple didn't "set off a patent Armageddon in the mobile space", as the original poster suggests. Nokia started it in October 2009 - prior to that, Apple was a sleeping patent-giant.

      http://www.engadget.com/2009/10/22/nokia-sues-apple-says-iphone-infringes-ten-patents/

    2. Re:I hope they win by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      "Nokia started it in October 2009 - prior to that, Apple was a sleeping patent-giant."

      At least Nokia's patents were proper *hardware* patents related to GSM technologies *they developed* (and everyone in the industry licenses them). Nokia really did *invent* that stuff (first on market with those, ever). So hardly the same as Apple suing ppl around with lame software patents.

    3. Re:I hope they win by JAlexoi · · Score: 4, Informative

      Nokia did start the battle, but contrary to what Apple did they originally only asked the court to set the price for their patents(read the damn complaint, but this is ./ ...). Apple, however, went for the throat with plain patent violation lawsuit.

    4. Re:I hope they win by pieterh · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Do you know what a patent is?

      It is a legal tool designed to reduce competition in some area of business, in exchange for documenting that specific knowledge so that future generations can reuse it.

      So two questions. One, do we need such documentation for software, in the form of patents? One might argue that patents do document, for example, steam engines from the 19th century. Are patents conceivably a proper form of documentation for software knowledge?

      Second question, is the stopping of competition worth this documentation? For example, patents on the GSM stack are why we pay so much for mobile data and calls. Patents allow a cartel (ITSUG) that controls prices, legally. The only justification for ITSUG's existence is that future generations will receive a neat stack of over 500 patent families documenting how to build GSM networks and phones. Is this better than, for example, the unpatented RFC stack which allows the Internet to function, without cartels, and at a cost that is as much as 1M times less?

      If you can answer YES to both these questions, go ahead with ways to improve software patent quality. If either answer is NO, abolish all legal monopolies on trade in software knowledge.

      There is no grey area here.

      --
      My blog
    5. Re:I hope they win by digitig · · Score: 5, Funny

      There is no grey area here.

      Only becasue somebody has probably patented "A means of generating shading with an absence of color by setting the R, G and B elements of the shading to identical values between 0 and 0xFF, not including the boundary values themselves which are covered by separate patents".

      --
      Quidnam Latine loqui modo coepi?
    6. Re:I hope they win by sznupi · · Score: 3, Insightful

      patents on the GSM stack are why we pay so much for mobile data and calls

      You...seriously...believe that?...

      --
      One that hath name thou can not otter
    7. Re:I hope they win by pieterh · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Yes, it's pretty clear from (failed) anti-trust proceedings in the EU against the telecoms operators that patents are the underlying long term reason for high costs that even regulators cannot correct. Patent licensing makes legal a cartel that would be criminal in any other case. There are no technical reasons for high mobile voice/data costs. Landline costs are low. Internet costs are low. GSM infrastructure is now 10+ years old in Europe.

      The cost of spectrum might be responsible for short term high costs but those licenses are long paid off.

      ITSUG controls who can and cannot do business with GSM in Europe and USA. Competition is excluded, prices are defined between members, and anti-trust authorities are powerless to intervene because it's all legal, thanks to patent licensing.

      It does not even matter what the patents actually say. They simply enable the cartel, that's their key role here.

      --
      My blog
    8. Re:I hope they win by sznupi · · Score: 4, Informative

      I don't really share you observations. Perhaps you really want to look at a very small part of the issue (omitting how the 10+ year old infrastructure is in constant upgrade; or how exorbitant 3G licenses often were)...or apparently you don't realise how cheap mobile services have become here, in the EU, in some places (what, they have "patent moratorium"? Riiight...)

      Yes, the cartel might be the problem. But if patents were behind it, no carrier would be able to get away and start a pricewar. Which does happen.

      --
      One that hath name thou can not otter
    9. Re:I hope they win by Lars+T. · · Score: 4, Interesting

      At least Nokia's patents were proper *hardware* patents related to GSM technologies *they developed*

      Ohh, so they changed their suit to not include all the "Method to" patents? Which were about half of them? Not to mention the fluffyness of the rest of the patents:

      Data transmission in a radio telephone network

      Abstract

      For bidirectional transmission of packet data, a packet data service unit (Agent) is disposed in a digital cellular system connected to be in association with a Mobile Switching Center, and connecting the cellular network to the date network. As a mobile station is connected to the packet data service unit, signalling related to connection formation characteristics of the network is first accomplished. As a result thereof, the mobile station and the data service unit are provided with a number of stored parameters relating to each other. This situation creates or is called a virtual channel. When a mobile station wants to transmit or receive data packets between the mobile station and the data service unit a packet data transfer channel is established making use of the parameters of the virtual channel and thereby using substantially less signalling than the channel establishment signalling characteristic of the network, one part thereof being a radio channel and the other part a time slot in a digital trunk line. On termination of data packet transfer, at least said radio channel is disassembled but the virtual channel is maintained until the disconnection of the mobile station from the data service.

      Translation: when a device connects to a network, both sides keep the connection open - over RADIO. Wow.

      --

      Lars T.

      To the guy who modded me down from perfect to terrible Karma - Apple haters still suck

    10. Re:I hope they win by elrous0 · · Score: 3, Funny

      I hope the judge makes them Thunderdome for it. I'm willing to bet that, in a life-or-death situation, Steve Jobs sheds his fake human skin and shows his true alien form.

      --
      SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    11. Re:I hope they win by Cornelius+the+Great · · Score: 4, Informative
      Lesson #1 on deciphering patents: Ignore the title and abstract- read the claims. Claims are far more specific, and are the only enforceable part of the patent.

      Here is the patent you're referring to.

      Here are the claims:

      Claims:

      1-59. (canceled)

      60. In a mobile communication system, a method comprising:adopting a robust header compression (ROHC) scheme;configuring uplink parameter information and downlink parameter information based on the ROHC scheme, wherein the downlink parameter information and the uplink parameter information are asymmetric with respect to each other, and wherein the downlink parameter information includes Reverse_Decompression_Depth parameter information.

      61. The method of claim 60, wherein the uplink parameter information includes at least one of uplink MAX_CID parameter information and Packet Sized Allowed parameter information.

      62. The method of claim 60, wherein the downlink parameter information further includes downlink MAX_CID parameter information.

      63. The method of claim 60 further comprising:receiving mobile terminal capacity information associated with the ROHC scheme from a mobile terminal.

      64. The method of claim 60 further comprising:transmitting mobile terminal capacity information associated with the ROHC scheme to a network.

      65. In a mobile communication system, and apparatus comprising:an entity in a PDCP (Packet Data Convergence Protocol) layer adapted to perform header compression and/or decompression; andan entity in an RRC (Radio Resource Control) layer adapted to configure uplink parameter information and downlink parameter information for the entity in the PDCP layer, wherein the uplink parameter information and the downlink parameter information are asymmetric with respect to each other, and wherein the asymmetric parameter information comprises at least one of MAX_CID parameter information and Reverse_Decompression_Depth parameter information.

      66. The apparatus of claim 65, wherein the uplink parameter information includes at least one of uplink MAX_CID parameter information and Packet Sized Allowed parameter information.

      67. The apparatus of claim 65, wherein the downlink parameter information further includes downlink MAX_CID parameter information.

      68. The apparatus of claim 65, wherein the header compression involves a robust header compression scheme.

      69. The apparatus of claim 65, wherein the entity in the RRC layer is further adapted to transfer the asymmetric parameter information to the PDCP layer.

      70. In a mobile communication system, an entity in a PDCP (Packet Data Convergence Protocol) layer comprising:a compressor performing header compression based on uplink parameter information transferred from an RRC (Radio Resource Control) layer;a decompressor performing header decompression based on downlink parameter information transferred from the RRC layer, wherein the uplink parameter information and the downlink parameter information are asymmetric with respect to each other, and wherein the downlink parameter information includes Reverse_Decompression_Depth parameter information.

      71. The entity in the PDCP layer of claim 70, wherein the uplink parameter information includes at least one of uplink MAX_CID parameter information and Packet Sized Allowed parameter information.

      72. The entity in the PDCP layer of claim 70, wherein the downlink parameter information further includes downlink MAX_CID parameter information.

      73. The method of claim 70, wherein the header compression involves a robust header compression scheme.

      In summary: this is a little less obvious than your analysis of the abstract. Unless there is prior art, this patent has teeth.

      --
      Sigs are for losers
    12. Re:I hope they win by goombah99 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      So, Nokia sues Apple, who kicks the dog (htc)?

      mod up. this is the first person to notice the Han Solo Shot first. Saying that Apple has unleashed patent armegeddon is a bit much. Apple is not a patent troll who produces no product or innovation but simply sues others with dubious IP. The IP in question here is not dubious or obvious. If it was obvious then why was the late-comer iphone such a run-away hit? others had plenty of time and funds to originate it.

      You can of course argue that somethings should nto be patentable or the degree to which patents should matter. But the point is Apple is not abusing the system here like actual patent trolls do.

      Is Nokia abusing apple? is HTC abusing apple with it's counter suit? Given that HTC was well aware of Apple's patents why did they choose to run smack into them? well that's pretty obvious: the patented innovations were crucial to success in that market, thus demonstrating precisely why Apple is on solid ground to patent them. They are not dubious innovations they are critical.

      One can say the same thing about the Nokia innovations that apple has stepped on. apple knew they existed but chose to template their protocols on Nokia's successful ones presumably because they had proven successful.

      I have no doubt that some of these patents are silly or restating past work with small tweaks of language. But It seems pretty clear that Nokia gor where it is, and Apple got where it is on the basis of innovation in highyl cometitive active markets. Thus they have every right to try to protect their crucial innovations that caused their sucess.

      Moreover there is likely more sound than fury here. The real issue is cross licensing. What is the relative value of the Nokia patents to apple comared to the Apple patents to Nokia. They obviously could not decide amongst themsleves or at least could not do do quickly enough for market timing, so instead they will measure each other in court. Then settle and cross license. In the end each will get a fair result and everyone else is doomed.

      On the other hand, if the sound is great enough and there are enough vested interests this may become political in which case the EU might doi something like force apple to give its patents at less than fair value. Or there could be equivalent pressure from the US on Nokia and HTC. Or HTC might engage some trade leverage from it's home country.

      THe problem is thus not the court settlements but potential political ones.

      --
      Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
  2. Re:in re Bilski by jonbryce · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Bilski is a computerised business method / mathematical algorithm patent. Invalidating that is a step in the right direction, but I don't think it will help HTC.

  3. Re:in re Bilski by Fallen+Kell · · Score: 3, Interesting

    It depends on how the court rules. If indeed it does uphold the fact that math can't be patented and concludes that ultimately, all software is math, then all software patents go poof. This might not help for any hardware based patents (and I am sure there are a few in this case), but a lot of the ammo disappears.

    --
    We were all warned a long time ago that MS products sucked, remember the Magic 8 Ball said, "Outlook not so good"
  4. Shackled Market Economics by freddled · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I fondly remember the days when products lived and died on their fitness for purpose, not in the courts. So much for free market economics. What shall we call this? SHAckled Market Economics

    1. Re:Shackled Market Economics by randomsearch · · Score: 3, Insightful

      "I fondly remember the days when products lived and died on their fitness for purpose, not in the courts. So much for free market economics. What shall we call this? SHAckled Market Economics"

      You do? When was that? Some time prior to capitalism?

  5. Re:Apple is flailing. by Aeternitas827 · · Score: 4, Informative

    I sincerely hope android destroys the iphone.

    Looks like Cupertino might have given them a hand on that...not enough data yet to pull out the failboat, but it doesn't look promising...

    As an aside, I will admit that the source above might not be the most objective; but I likely wouldn't link it if it were one person, one device, on each item so far...time will tell if we see other sites getting the same reports and all.

    --
    I don't post AC. I like my -1, Flamebaits. Trump/Sheen 2012 on the Batshit Insane ticket!
  6. YAWN by paimin · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The iPhone vs. Android flamebait stories are getting real fucking boring, guys.

    --
    Facebook is the new AOL
    1. Re:YAWN by L4t3r4lu5 · · Score: 3, Funny

      So spice them up a bit!

      "Apple iPhone used to bludgeon pensioner, HTC handset used as shield by rescuer!"
      "iPhone used as canoe by 14 year old stranded after typhoon!"
      "Beowulf Cluster of HTC phones used to cure cancer!"

      See? It's like working for a News Corp company!

      --
      Finally had enough. Come see us over at https://soylentnews.org/
    2. Re:YAWN by CaptainZapp · · Score: 4, Funny

      "iPhone used as canoe by 14 year old stranded after typhoon!"

      Yes, but apple didn't honor the warranty, since the hunidity indicators on the outside of the phone went red.

      --
      ich bin der musikant

      mit taschenrechner in der hand

      kraftwerk

  7. There's two issues here by Whuffo · · Score: 5, Insightful

    One issue is the corporate use of questionably valid patents to attack their competitors. This does nothing to advance science or technology and is a clear abuse of the patent system. I'm not talking about legitimate patents covering real inventions - I'm talking about all of those patents that cover pre-existing technology or obvious ideas. There's far too many of those and they're taking a toll on our economy.

    The other issue is the free riders - those corporations that choose to copy other's inventions and profit from someone else's ideas. This is what the patent system was intended to address and it's not doing very well at that either.

    Rather than point fingers and toss accusations, I'd like to offer this thought to my fellow Slashdot readers: think back to what cell phones were like before the iPhone came out - and what they're like now. Say what you will about Apple but they did cause a revolution in cell phone design. They provided the "inspiration" for all of the touch-screen Iphone wanna-be phones that are now being produced by numerous companies - including HTC. Who will win in this latest exchange of legal briefs? One thing is for sure: it won't be the consumer.

    One thing you can depend on is that patent suits take time and money - huge amounts of money for both the winner and the loser. And these expenses will be passed on to you in the cost of your new cell phone and the price of the cell service - the corporations aren't in business to do anyone a favor and they'll always make a profit no matter how much it costs you.

    Situations like this one clearly show that the US patent system is badly broken - it's not promoting science and the arts and it's not protecting those who invent useful technology. It's become nothing but a weapon that corporations use to beat up on their competitors legally. This needs to change, and change soon.

    1. Re:There's two issues here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      In a truly free market, why shouldn't you be allowed to "copy other's inventions and profit from someone else's ideas.". Think it through.

      That's what grates me, these people harp on about how they're love a free market, yet everything they DO says otherwise.

      It's an odd sort of freedom where a clearly winning strategy is to be aritificially restricted.

    2. Re:There's two issues here by Vapula · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Palm smartphones did exist BEFORE the iPhone...

      iPhone, Android phones, ... are *NOT* Phones, they are "Smartphones" which are a mix between PDA and phone... And that did exists before... Palm had several of them which already had big touch screen

      Keep in mind that most progress are improvements over something that already exists... And Apple marketting make you think they "invented" the technology...

      Blueberry/Palm --- iPhone
      Creative/Sony/... --- iPod
      Xerox --- Macintosh GUI
      Arm --- A4 processor (it's nothing more than common blocks put together, nothing new)
      And so on... But with a good marketting, they make people believe they invented the wheel !!!

      What they did create is the market for smartphones, not the smartphones... Before, smartphones were limited to a few CEO... Now everyone wants a smartphone (even if he has no need for it) And there are no patents protection for "creating a new market", only for creating a new product.

      In this case, Apple IS the freerunner... Nokia holds most of the mobile phone patents (the technologies needed to connect to mobile networks). Apple made the iPhone without paying royalties to Nokia...

    3. Re:There's two issues here by sznupi · · Score: 4, Informative

      Yeah, "inevitable" in 2007...

      Not a surprise really, since it was there in 2004: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nokia_7710
      (a bit sooner really via UIQ devices; and many others, really)

      Oh wait, or was it 1993? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_Simon

      --
      One that hath name thou can not otter
  8. Re:I never understood by Kvasio · · Score: 3, Funny

    Yes, but you've got to buy license.

    Patent #3928742023483: business method in which you make money without common sense
    Patent #3928742023491: business method in which you make money without common sense with computers

  9. Misinformation about Android sales beating Apple by jmcbain · · Score: 3, Informative

    The original posting cites a May report from NPD that says that Android beat iPhone sales in Q1 of this year. However, that was now found to be erroneous: that survey was only for the consumer market. When business/enterprise sales were counted and reported in June by Nielsen, then iPhone beat Android by 3-to-1 and is closing in on RIM. Furthermore, most likely the only reason Android beat out iPhone in Q1 for consumers was because people were already anticipating the newest iPhone 4 released today. Apple sold 600K iPhone 4 during pre-orders, which as 10x the sales for the iPhone 3GS.

  10. Re:Android sales greater than iPhone sales? by Totenglocke · · Score: 4, Interesting

    First quarter 2010, there were more Android phones sold than iPhones. Also I was reading various articles on this, and a site (I wish I'd bookmarked it now - maybe someone reading knows which one it is) showed graphs for mobile browser usage - over a one year time span, May 2009 to May 2010, iPhone browser usage dropped 8% and Android browser usage increased 12%.

    I had an iPhone 3GS from the day they went on sale until two weeks ago when I bought an Evo. I loved the iPhone at first, until all of it's shortcomings (virtually none of which have been fixed in the new version) became too obvious to stand. Android is a much better platform and you get a large selection of different handsets to choose from. Out of all the people I know, it's about 50/50 for iPhone vs Android ownership. However, I currently know no one looking to buy a new iPhone - but I know several people looking to buy a new Android phone and several who want to switch from an iPhone to an Android phone (but that's just my personal experience).

    --
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." ~Thomas Jefferson
  11. Re:Apple is flailing. by JAlexoi · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I am an Android fanboy and develop for it. But I sincerely hope that iPhone doesn't die, but rather becomes more open so that everyone can win....

  12. Re:Apple is flailing. by Jesus_666 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Why? So Google has less incentive to innovate? Competition is good. A healthy market is one where multiple systems compete against each other, constantly being forced to improve in order to gain an edge. A market where Google stands alone is neither competitive nor healthy. Of course there's still Microsoft (well, not if they continue down the path they are on), Nokia (small presence in the USA) and RIM (not very attractive for non-business customers) but as far as brand recognition goes it's currently iOS vs. Android.

    --
    USE HOT GRITS WITH STATUE OF NATALIE PORTMAN (NAKED AND PETRIFIED)
  13. Re:Misinformation about Android sales beating Appl by BlackCreek · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Yesterday at the Droid X launch, the quote was of 160.000 Android phones being sold per day. I assume that this number is global. So at any 4 working days Android (sales world wide) matches the iphone 4 (US) launch. How well do you think the sales between these two fare on a normal week world wide? Truth is, we both don't know.

    I think that at the high-end price point, the iphone seems to sell a lot more. But the trick is that, world wide, not that many people have the disposable money. Android OTOH is present both at the high-end and at the mid-range.

  14. Re:in re Bilski by MarxMarvellous · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Certainly, since the one of the foundations of quantum theory is the many worlds hypothesis...

    The many worlds hypothesis is NOT one of the foundations of quantum mechanics. It's an interpretation of quantum mechanics - one of many. And that bit in your argument where you jump from the *concept* of digital logic being unpatentable to a specific *hardware* implemenation being unpatentable is really shakey too. How did this get modded +4 insightful?

  15. Re:Misinformation about Android sales beating Appl by LingNoi · · Score: 3, Informative

    In Thailand you can buy an android based WelCom A88 for around $277. That's about a months salary for someone making a really shitty salary here.

    There is definitely a huge amount of variation in android devices from around the world and I bet you've only heard about the ones in the US.

  16. Not necessiarly by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The federal government doesn't have to wise up and fix the patent problem overall, they can just take away the patents in question. Since patents are a power specifically granted to the government, it also means they are theirs to do with as they wish. The government can revoke patents for various reasons.

    Well, if smart phones were going to get banned, that would have national security implications. The government relies heavily on mobile phones for communications. National security is a reason they are allowed to revoke patents for.

    This sort of thing was threatened in the RIM lawsuit, and is one of the reasons it settled. The federal government told the court that if an injunction was issued against RIM stopping their operations, it could have national security implications. They asked the court not to grant it, and it was strongly implied if it was they might just take the patent away. The court then strongly suggested to the parties that they might want to settle this shit.

    Not saying that's what would happen, just saying it is a possibility. The government could basically say "Ok all the patents in question are gone now, anyone can use the tech. Problem solved, let's all go get drunk," and ignore the underlying problem with the system.