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HSBC Bank Sends Activated Debit Cards Through Mail
Knowzy writes "At least two divisions at HSBC Bank apparently failed card issuing 101 and are mailing out debit cards pre-activated. Because they are debit cards, fraudulent transactions come directly out of a victim's checking account. A similar report from 2004 suggests this issue is longstanding and widespread. When confronted with the evidence, HSBC would not commit to fixing this issue, preferring instead to offer vague statements like, 'Through our systems and analytics, we focus on the greatest and most active threats in an effort to avoid negatively impacting customer experience.'"
This what you get when a bank to gets to big
HSBC Customer Service (1.800.975.4722) HSBC Bank USA, N.A. P.O. Box 2013 Buffalo, NY 14240 https://www.hsbctaxpayerfinancialservices.com/htax/Cust/inquiry If it were my bank I'd take my money and walk....
'Through our systems and analytics, we focus on the greatest and most active threats in an effort to avoid negatively impacting customer experience.'
Oh by the way look at this other shiny pretty stuff we've been doing to divert your attention from this major fuck up, which we kinda did on purpose to save on customer service costs when you idiots try to use your unactivated cards.
Not that they are perfect but I've been much happier with my credit union than any commercial bank I've used in the last 20 years...
I still cannot find the droids I am looking for...
'Through our systems and analytics, we focus on the greatest and most active threats in an effort to avoid negatively impacting customer experience.'"
If you look at identity theft there are 3 "greatest" threats, stupidity on the part of the cardholder, stupidity on the part of the bank, or stupidity on the part of a third party. Even the best individual practices can't protect against stupidity from the bank or stupidity from a third party that has your card info for a legitimate reason.
For some reason banks seem to think that they aren't a threat to someone's security of their identity, they are a -huge- threat because they have all the information identity thieves need to make fraudulent purchases. Such things like this will undoubtedly have pressure put on the post office and mail handlers rather than the main culprit, the bank.
Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
They aren't Chinese - they British. They were incorporated in London in 1990 and have been headquartered in London since 1993. Even the Wikipedia page will tell you that.
Well, you know, if they are going to pay for adequate customer service, then the upper level management will not be paid as many millions of dollars per year as they are paid now. Think of the suffering of executives and shareholders before you start worrying about customers!
Palm trees and 8
HSBC was the old Marine Midland bank -- a horrible institution under any name. Anyone who puts any money in HSBC is already a huge risk. This is only a single issue they gamble with your money.
"By sending a combination package of the security embedded transaction device, and its use activated within our customer database, we have increase satisfaction by lowering cost and increasing responsiveness to banking service requests"
Oh. I could have been a master marketer. Why oh why did I go into science and peddle objective considerations when banging a stick in a swill bucket pays so much better! :|
According to the expiry date on my HSBC card, one of the mailed cards could very likely have been mine.
I will be cancelling my HSBC account as soon as I can find an effective replacement bank. We have an ESL Credit Union nearby; looking for any other alternatives if anyone has any suggestions.
Informatus Technologicus
I insist my Bank either mails to the local branch for pick up (with ID) or in some cases sends by signed courier. Almost every service representitive, when questioned thinks this is a "good idea" because they admit they hear of an enormous ammount of fraud this way. Banks have no interest in doing this by default in my area.
I understand it's usual practice in MOST countries to mail pre-activated cards (maily credit, debit not so much) to residential addresses. Indeed credit cards go 'missing' in the mail often.
This is one of the most common methods of physically obtaining a credit card. Even if you have to go to the branch to get the card activated by a pin, which occurs with Debit cards (credit cards you just need to sign the back of them and their good to go) the fraudsters know branches are slack about correctly checking ID and obtaining a fake or doctored ID is trivial.
My advice, for you own good, insist you pick up your new card from your local branch, if you have the option of paying for a signed courier if the bank won't then do so.
After logging in slashdot still does not take you back to the page you were on. It's been that way for 20 years.
Here's the thing. You need a database server, an interactive phone system, and humans to talk to people who hit wrong buttons or don't have a clear enough phone line for touch tones... all of which cost money!
So, if the cost of faking the authentication and paying the fraud off weeks later (if it's caught by the consumer in time) is less than running the real system, that's profit for the bank's shareholders and our financial system requires the bank do what's best for the shareholders, not the customers.
Visa, MasterCard, AmEx, Discover, etc. should enforce a standard for these things, but they don't because if they did they'd have to punish HSBC, and in order to do that they'd lose transaction fees from a competitor that HSBC would most likely start....
HSBC becomes the first bank to issue pre-signed checks to make check writing easier for it's customers. Simply fill in the amount and date and use the checks as easily as their pre-activated debit cards.
Up here, in Canada we have Eskimos, igloos, and whatever else you cliché of the moment is. We also got NIPs on our freaking bank cards, so if a bozo gets one in the mail they can't do zit with it if they aren't the trueful owner. Didn't read TFA though, maybe I missed somethin'
Intrust Bank, NA, for example, mails debit cards, ready-to-use.
The problem is not with mailing, it's with pre-activation. The customer has to be made to activate manually to confirm that they did receive the card anyway. Activating manually generally requires user credentials. This can be done online, saving the hassle of having to go to a bank personally. (required: key from issued card + key from user account)
Also, if "the fraudsters know branches are slack about correctly checking ID and obtaining a fake or doctored ID is trivial", I have more issues with the bank than just the mailing of cards. Switch banks ASAP.
An elderly relative of mine is with HSBC. Being quite savvy she liked to browse the Internet for bargains, and inevitably her search took her to eBay. Long story short a scammer sent a faulty item, lifting about £65/$100 from her debit card as payed through Paypal. Obviously the cardinal rule of debit card use is to avoid using one online as much as possible...never use one on eBay.
With what is certainly an anomaly in Paypal's so expertly rendered services that we now expect of a caring quasi-bank, she found herself delayed from getting her money back. Meanwhile our scammer had apparently left or been banned from Fleabay. So she called HSBC, citing the 'debit protection' they'd included with her current account.
Explaining the incident to the first man somewhere on the subcontinent was a nightmare. To his credit he seemed very pleased to help, but his listening skills and speaking style were out of touch with a native British English speaker. Simply put my relative couldn't understand half of what he was saying...and the calls degenerated into his profuse apologizing and her asking him to speak slower, politely.
This went on for a few more calls, two more foreign customer service people abroad went on - until eventually the lodged claim had enough clarity that it warranted getting a person who spoke better. Eventually an employee with English much closer to that of a typical Briton got on the phone, and despite being strenuously nagged over this seventy quid refused to pay because it was against the bank's policy to refund debit transactions.
But it all ended well as my relation had a cash ISA with the bank - it took a politely worded threat of changing accounts and ISA to a competitor before firmly requesting a superior a few times before an apparant manager reneged on HSBC's refusal and refunded the account in full. A whole lot of headaching for all concerned bar our scammer who apparently did a bunk with a nice chunk of change.
Moral of the story is to casually check with older/quite naive people who have the Internet but are not as experienced with the world of online shopping. Use credit cards not debit cards; if they are suspicious of credit explain it to them. Else they might have to talk to 'John or 'Richard' or 'Hannah' over at the other end of the commonwealth for hours chasing up. My family member was lucky judging by all the horror stories of 'debit protection' floating around.
The lack of even the rudimentary security is precisely the reason I refuse to carry a debit card. Without your knowledge, your checking account is empty and your mortgage bouncing.
With a credit card, you get to argue with the bank about their money.
With a debit card, you get to argue with the bank about your money.
What happens when the bank denies your dispute? With credit cards, you get nastygrams. With debit cards, your mortgage starts bouncing. Again.
I'll take an ATM card any day of the week over a signature debit card.
SirWired
This may appear to make no sense but I get it. Let me walk you through it. They do something horribly insecure and stupid. Then they issue this: "Through our systems and analytics, we focus on the greatest and most active threats in an effort to avoid negatively impacting customer experience." Then they realize that the biggest security threat at the moment is themselves. That blows their minds and with blown minds, they're unable to immediately solve the problem. That's how the sequence of events led up to where we are now with them still doing nothing about it.
Google's Super Secret Search Algorithm: SELECT @search_results FROM internet WHERE @search_results = 'good'
I got a new debit card from HSBC a few days ago. It was not preactivated...
They aren't Chinese - they British. They were incorporated in London in 1990 and have been headquartered in London since 1993. Even the Wikipedia page will tell you that.
And before it was London British, it was Hong Kong British. HSBC was never Chinese except geographically.
They were originally based in Hong Kong but reformed itself as HSBC inc and moved to London when Hong Kong reverted back to Chinese rule.
Can someone explain what the law is regarding banks' responsibility for safeguarding customers' money?
I have a similar story... change to credit, make HSBC the charger of fees on my account and it's much the same.
I recently made a large purchase on a HSBC co-branded card (the large retailer offered a "payment plan" which included the HSBC card). I figured I'd pay it out in two months but didn't have the cash right now. I also needed the large whitegoods item since mine had just died.
Long story short, I call them up, activate the card, confirm the payment details (so I can repay it) and seek assurances that if I pay half the balance soon that I won't have to pay more at statement time.
I do just that. I pay them two payments totalling $1k. One within a week of opening the account, another one or two days before the first statement is generated. HSBC refuses to accept that those two payments count towards the monthly account (actually, my lawyer informs me that consumer law says they do) and charges me late fees and interest on the full purchase amount.
Cut to three months later and I am filling paperwork for a police fraud report and small claims court to recover my costs in dealing with their fraudulent and illegal business practice.
Their primary business practice seems to be: "be evil, because most people won't notice or dispute it and the costs of dealing with the 0.5% who do care are insignificant next to the money we're printing". Nothing new there - most big companies behave that way.
Get back to work. My iPhone 4 is still on backorder.
HSBC does not pay nearly the same costs for fraud when the card is a debit card, instead customers pay far more.
It's entirely possible that you'll never notice the missing card for 60 days, given banks usually send cards unsolicited when nearing expiration. If so, all the money taken from the account, even after those 60 days will not be reimbursed by your bank.
Credit cards offer more protection largely because you're spending the banks money, therefore banks usually don't make this mistake with credit cards.
The Christian religion has been and still is the principal enemy of moral progress in the world. -- Bertrand Russell
You are NOT liable for debit fraud over $50 on your account, provided you notify the bank within 3 days of it occurring. The $50 exemption for banks is to incentivize you to report fraud quickly rather than waiting until the end of the statement cycle and looking at the paper, long after the fraudster has disappeared.
If your credit sucks too much to get a real credit card through a credit union---go get a secured credit card from people like Public Savings Bank or a credit union that offers secured credit cards. You put up a security deposit and that's your credit line. If you close the account, you get the deposit back. If you get the secured card through some banks like CapOne, etc---they may unsecure the card after a while and return your deposit, which means then you have an unsecured credit card with a credit line.
Nonetheless... good luck with some of these banks in getting NSF funds due to fraud reversed. Large banks generally do whatever they can to keep their fee income, including pissing you off to the point where you close your account and take all your business away. Large national and regional banks as a whole only get concerned if you're a large customer that has significant deposits; mostly because branch managers do get graded on retail stats like how many new accounts opened and products purchased, etc. Losing a big depositor makes weekly stats look ugly, so they will bend over to save you. They really don't care much about the depositor who can barely keep $1,000/£500 in the bank.
The same goes with lending products. Customers with excellent credit (which the banks checks periodically by doing soft pulls on the credit bureaus), revolve their accounts somewhat and generate lots of transaction volume are woo'd and if you call to cancel a card--you will get xfer'd to a "customer save" department... ALWAYS manned by native English speakers, where they try to save the account from closure. Contrast that with borrowers with mediocre credit, make only minimum payments, late-pay or don't use their accounts much at all, the bank is happy to see them go.
You should always use a credit card when making purchases because it's the bank's money on the line, not your own and if you detect fraud, you can ask for a chargeback. Chargebacks cause the merchant to get money wiped off their credit card remittances for the amount of the chargeback.
I did a chargeback once when a kid at Starbucks rang up my coffee, twice, on two tickets. I only got one receipt but when I checked my credit card statement... two transactions for the same money for the same day hit my account. I clicked on the charge and clicked "Contest charge" and explained why I thought it was wrong. The next day the charge was gone off my statement, and that Starbucks store got $4.96 wiped off their credit card remittances for charging me twice, which leaves it to their store manager to search their records to find out why they got a chargeback and who caused it to happen, etc.
You can't easily do chargebacks with debit cards because you have to fight your bank. With credit cards it's easy, because Visa/MC/Amex/DISC build purchase protection into their credit card contracts.
HSBC isn't really Chinese, it just owns Hong Kong, I'll tell you a story about it.
...for in this time the Empire was a devil of many faces, a merchant in India and a gaoler to Australia. But to the Chinese they appeared as Cai Shen, the god of wealth and bid the city folk pay sacrifice in the hall of HSBC and be rewarded with prosperity and monthly compounded interest .... And though the empire now sleeps in the dust, the high priest Sir Thomas Jackson still stands where his empress once stood, under the shadow of his great temple to money, which towers like a steeple over Hong Kong and reminds all those who look upon it of their piety.
Also China doesn't own the majority of American debt, they own roughly the same amount as Japan or the US does domestically, and the banks that own it are predominately the People's Bank of China (central bank) as well as the big 4 (ICBC, CCB, BOC, ABC)
When Argumentum ad Hominem falls short, try Argumentum ad Matrem
...but it's really just a tax and welfare program pair.
It's not run like insurance at all, they just call it that because people are comfortable with the idea of insurance.
Yes, governments love taxes and welfare programs. To take money from people who are making it, and distribute it among those who they think deserve it, gives them power. The more taxes, the more welfare programs, the more power. There's nobody in government who doesn't love power.
Whether it's manufacturing subsidies, or farm subsidies, or family allowance, or employment insurance, or social insurance, or food stamps, or socialized medicine, it's all the same thing: take from whoever has it, give it around as you see fit. It's all about power. Not about loving you, or protecting you. About their power, and you being dependent on it.
I would worry a lot about the statement 'Through our systems and analytics, we focus on the greatest and most active threats in an effort to avoid negatively impacting customer experience.'
That would seem to indicate they have much worse problems than the pre-authorized debit cards in the mail that must require a lot of resources and planning to take control of.
Definitely a bank to avoid as both a customer and investor.
If my bank did this I would change banks. I know I have heard of small local banks being hacked and getting debit card numbers. But sending an activated debit card threw the mail is just bad business and bad security.
http://www.thetechnologygeek.org
When I worked in the mortgage industry, everyone said that these people would destroy your credit. I saw instances of them submitting the same account to the 3 credit rating bureaus under different business names so that credit reports made it look like people had way more outstanding debt. I've heard horror stories about them as a lender in general in fact, so much so that I've been given advice to never accept a store credit card that's backed by HSBC. I also briefly did work for them as a real estate appraiser, and our firm rather rapidly decided to stop doing business with them entirely, though I cannot remember what the reasoning is now (it's been several years).
Nonetheless... good luck with some of these banks in getting NSF funds due to fraud reversed. Large banks generally do whatever they can to keep their fee income
hm.. sounds like an opportunity to take the bank to court, on charges of unjust enrichment (in regards to the nsf fees), negligence (sending out pre-activated debit cards), breach of duty (in regards to securing the plaintiffs' account), and false advertising (in regards to advertising their debit cards as 'secure').
In addition, if the fraudster drained your account, and the bank enabled that... this may have prevented you from entering into a business relationship with someone else to buy goods at a certain price.
Not having the funds, you may have been unable to complete the transaction on time, or might have had to pay a higher price.
Bury the bank in paperwork and legal filings, and not only will they be refunding NFS fees, they should be paying you more, either when the gavel comes down against them, or they agree to settle on reasonable terms.
They aren't Chinese - they British. They were incorporated in London in 1990 and have been headquartered in London since 1993. Even the Wikipedia page will tell you that.
At the time, they may indeed have been Chinese. How do I know this? I worked for Marine Midland Auto Financial Group, a Division of Marine Midland Bank; who was also Saab Scania Credit Corporation, Suburu Credit Corp, Porsche Financial Services and a number of other financial arms for major auto manufacturers (hey, didja really think the auto companies were their own banks?). This was back in 1986 and 1987... MMAFC and MMB were fully bought out by the (at that time) Chinese The Hongkong and Shanghai Banking Corporation.
At THIS time, Hongkong Shanghai Banking Corporation is STILL based in Hong Kong (as it's name implies).
The Hongkong and Shanghai Banking Corporation Limited, based in Hong Kong, is a wholly owned subsidiary and the founding member of the HSBC Group, which is traded on several stock exchanges as HSBC Holdings plc.
HSBC
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HSBC Holdings (who owns it) is based in London, and apparently for regulatory reasons due to an earlier acquisition.
Headquarters
HSBC's Hong Kong headquarters are at 1 Queen's Road Central in the Central area on Hong Kong Island. The HSBC Hong Kong headquarters building was also home to HSBC Holdings plc's headquarters until the latter firm's move to 8 Canada Square, London to meet the requirements of the UK regulatory authorities after the acquisition of the Midland Bank in 1992. It was designed by British architect Lord Norman Foster, and was the most expensive building in the world based on usable floor area at the time it was built.
HSBC Holdings
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Seems to me, like they are a London company in regulatory and legal requirements and location only, if Wikipedia's slant is correct. Sounds a lot like being a Delaware Corporation in this country...
StarTrekPhase2 - The Five Year Mission Continues!
They aren't Chinese - they British. They were incorporated in London in 1990 and have been headquartered in London since 1993. Even the Wikipedia page will tell you that.
Wait, another thing we can blame the British for?
Hope you all had a happy Fourth of July, everyone!
'Through our systems and analytics, we focus on the greatest and most active threats in an effort to avoid negatively impacting customer experience.'"
this translates to: 'Any of our 15434534 lawyers will gladly take on your claims and humble you.'
If you Google HSBC, their site description says, 'Welcome to the home of the worlds local bank.' They forgot an apostrophe. That speaks worlds of confidence.
The line about "majority of American debt" is utter horrible bullshit. A large majority of US government debt is domestic (probably about 70%.) Even when you consider foreign debt only, the PRC is roughly tied with Japan and makes up a pretty small minority of the total, with 23.4% of US foreign debt.
You are NOT liable for debit fraud over $50 on your account, provided you notify the bank within 3 days of it occurring. /I?
Is that true everywhere? ISTM the OP (or maybe just some of the original replies) was in the UK. TWIAVBP.
They say what they mean. They've got over 12 billion branches spanning from Perseus to Norma. Rumor has it they're opening a new main branch in the galactic core.
They aren't Chinese - they British. They were incorporated in London in 1990 and have been headquartered in London since 1993. Even the Wikipedia page will tell you that.
Also, the author P. G. Wodehouse worked at HSBC for a time... for certain minimal values of "worked". The New Asiatic Bank in Psmith in the City is based on the HSBC London offices of 1900 or so.
I'm not sure why going to the bank. With most banks in Europe you activate the new card by using it in an ATM or performing a purchase that requires PIN. The rule of thumb is to send in the PIN by a different means than the card, say, you get it at the bank while signing the papers, or you get it with your confirmation papers through registered letter. At worst it is mailed 1 week before the card. If the card is a continuation of expired one, PIN is never sent, it is transferred over from the old one. So, in order to use the card in fraudable 1% uses scenario you first have to use it in a secure 99% uses scenario to activate it. (you don't even have to withdraw any money from the ATM, checking account balance is sufficient to activate the card).
45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
I was under the impression this was a fairly common practice (in Europe, never seen it in North America). I do expect they send the pre-activated pin on a different shipment, on a different day. (The usual is about a week apart). TFA doesn't give any information on this crucial point. It doesn't make it totally secure (or acceptable), but somewhat less worse than presented here.
I think that pre-activated credit card are much worse for the system (and yes, this seems fairly common too). Although you are legally protected in that case, they are much easier to exploit in case of postal-theft. At that time you won't be monitoring it (because you did not receive it yet) and flags won't be raised because your usual buyer profile has not yet been identified.
And err, no, not every bank does this. HSBC seems to be a bit "special" in this respect.
Some things in life are really when you come to think of them.
If you took more than a cursory glance at the wiki page you'll see that HSBC has never been Chinese. Hong Kong was part of the British Empire and the bank was founded by a British citizen. It has been run by British citizens ever since.
At that time Hong Kong was still part of the Realm, and the chairman of HSBC was Michael Sandberg, later Baron Sandberg. There is nothing Chinese about HSBC except its location.
"A week in the lab saves an hour in the library"
This is a bank that hands the entire contents of a business account to a member of staff who isn't even on the account mandate, AFTER a lawyer has warned them.
So, no surprise there.
Insert
So what - this is common practice for repeat issue cards (where they do not have to also send the PIN). The notion of "activating" your card is stupid as the normal way to activate the card is to use it in a cash machine (ATM). They are NOT sending out the card with the PIN printed on them so nobody can use them fraudulently anyway. I really don't see what the issue is here.
'Through our systems and analytics, we focus on the greatest and most active threats in an effort to avoid negatively impacting customer experience.'
Translating through booblefish gives "Through our posture and orientation of our balance within Earth's gravity field, we focus on our experience that when our cranial crown is applied to our rectal region with sufficient impact, the former can be forced into a state of mechanical immobility, and an extended distance, within the latter."
Naw, I'm just kidding. They can't tell their rectal region from a position on the Earth's surface with an accumulation of topsoil which when measured in height produces a negative number, the ability to differentiate between them being a prerequisite for the assertion above.
"I may be synthetic, but I'm not stupid." -- Bishop 341-B
you sound to me like a rep for HSBC doin' some PR damage control...
I'm not sure how debit cards work outside of New Zealand, however here in New Zealand it is impossible to use a debit card without entering in a PIN code to authenticate yourself to the terminal. In other words signing off a debit card transaction isn't possible. So if a bank were to post a pre-activated card out to a customer, there's no security risk since the customer would have picked a PIN code when they originally signed up for the card in the branch.
I'm with the ANZ Bank here in New Zealand and they post out replacement debit cards with the PIN already assigned to the card. As far as I know the PIN isn't loaded on the card itself. The bank just adds a record on their side saying this new card has the same PIN as the previous card. No security risk since only me and the bank's debit card system knows my PIN number. Someone stealing my card would have to guess my PIN.
Perhaps this is not the case outside of NZ. However I personally think the 'signature required' type of transaction should be withdrawn, leaving PIN as the only authentication method. We in New Zealand have managed to do without signature transactions for debit card transactions since EFTPOS was introduced in the 1980's.
Signature authentication is only allowed for Visa/MC/Amex credit transactions since NZ based merchants have to accept foreign cards which allow signature required transactions. So basically we only allow signature required transactions due to having to keep that security loophole open to allow foreigners to pay for goods and services in NZ.
If you cannot get your problem resolved during the first call to an outsourced call centre... Stop Calling.
Write a letter to your branch manager (if a bank) or local head office (for any other organisation) instead. It gets much quicker attention from a native English-speaker, and they take written communications much more seriously than phone conversations because it is easier to legally prove that such communication took place.
If your writing skills are not up to producing a business letter by yourself, ask someone who can do it for you. In the UK, Citizens Advice Bureaux should be able to help with this.
--- The key to knowledge is not to rely on people to teach you it ---
confidence in Uncle Sam indeed!
New Economic Perspectives
I once had a few visa cards come to me pre activated...I called them up and told them that this was any activity on the card i was not responsible and to cancel and send me a new one, they tried to explain....bla,bla,bla, I told them i don't care, send me a new one and unactivated, that way I have to be the one to call it in, this happened about 3 times in a row, and then they caught on, that I was not going to accept it, since I never have had a problem, and I cancel cards after 4 or 5 transactions....my own way of securing my account if you will, but at least they respected what I said about not wanting to go with this new way of doing things...they left me alone and continued as it was before....
I guess they thought for most people they would have no problems, but with me, I would never surrender under their policies.
You believe the government has a duty to protect you?
Why, yes, actually. Ever heard of "social contract"?
Or the police? Or the coastguard? Or the military?
One of the primary duties of government is to protect its citizens, in any number of contexts. The extreme right/libertarian crowd have either forgotten (or never learned) the key difference between civilization and the jungle, and what makes a society a society rather than a rubble-strewn city such as Mogadishu. One of the dangers of learning your socioeconomic from a fiction writer like Ayn Rand and closing your mind to anything not conforming to her toxic ideology, but I digress.
The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
If you have to fight your bank, you're doing it wrong. My credit union lets me dispute charges instantly online, too.
If you don't trust your bank, why are you letting them hold your money?
HSBC aren't alone in this: Barclays just sent me a pre-activated debit card as well. Not only that, but it was also "contactless enabled", meaning that -- for small transactions at least -- it can be used without a PIN. How about that for security?
Suffice it to say that Barclays won't have my business for much longer.
With a credit card, you get to argue with the bank about their money.
Not with the new chip cards.
If you read the fine print of your credit card agreement, you'll find that the bank's logs are the definitive record of the transaction, and so if they say you made the purchase there's no arguing with it, regardless of whether you may have any "proof" showing otherwise (e.g., like not even being in the country in which the transaction took place).
Hopefully this will change now that the Chip'n'PIN has been shown to be completely busted:
http://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/2010/02/11/chip-and-pin-is-broken/
In the UK a lot of shops/businesses won't let you use a card (debit or credit) for transactions less than five pounds.
Who pays for a coffee except by cash anyway?
To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
Well, on their actual UK website it says "the world's local bank" complete with apostrophe.
To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
My HSBC Card just expired and I haven't received a new one yet, so I'm getting a kick out of this topic.
Michael Geoghegan, Chairman
Peter Wong, CEO
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hongkong_and_Shanghai_Banking_Corporation
The Hongkong and Shanghai Banking Corporation Limited, based in Hong Kong, is a wholly owned subsidiary and the founding member of the HSBC Group, which is traded on several stock exchanges as HSBC Holdings plc.
StarTrekPhase2 - The Five Year Mission Continues!
HSBC also runs Household Bank. I had a credit card with them for about two years. For the first six months it was great because I had a 1.9% interest rate. I know how to read credit card applications and the rate it jumped to was not too high. I mostly have credit cards with no balance on them however I do have some credit card debt. I proceeded to move my debt over to this card by paying the full amount on my other card and the minimum on this one. When the rate jumped, I raised the amount I paid on it every month.
Everything was going swimmingly until the first scam came. The "credit protection" service. I was sold on it as being a trial that was free. Then the fees showed up so I called to cancel it. What a nightmare. I'm pretty sure they use a call center in India for all their Customer Service at the first level. I finally got that taken off. I kept paying my card down.
Note at this point that my credit is as perfect as it could be with no late or missed payments and the only thing counting against me was too much open credit (although much of it was not used). Well I think you can figure out where this is going. Even though my credit was great, Household bank kept raising my interest rates in small incriments until it was close to 28%!!!!
I've never closed a Credit Card until that one. I promptly got a Capital One loan with a fixed monthly payment and paid off that account in full. I then called Household Bank and closed the account. I also swore never to support HSBC or a subsidiary with my business ever again.
My argument is that what happens while you are fighting the dispute is different.
Sure, if the transaction is fraudulent, you eventually get your money back for good. And yes, during the initial dispute you get the money back; but it may not be until AFTER your mortgage bounced that you found out you were out the money to begin with.
With a credit card, I don't have vital bills that MUST be paid (like the mortgage) that bounce until I discover the fraud. With a credit card, I'm not out the money again if the bank refuses the initial dispute.
SirWired
AC, I feel sorry for your family and friends (if any) that have to put up with you if the presence of a line break and a single word launches you into a frothing rage.
Me putting my name at the bottom of my post is this old-fashioned thing called a "signature". I'm hardly the "only" person that signs things they put online.
I could understand anger if my signature contained a half-dozen stupid quotes, five urls, and ASCII art. It doesn't. It's a line break and my handle. Deal.
SirWired
That would seem to indicate they have much worse problems than the pre-authorized debit cards in the mail that must require a lot of resources and planning to take control of.
youtube
Actually if you read the company history (the title of which escapes ,me at the moment, something to do with a plant as I remember), you will find their heritage is Scottish. A junior member of the great British trading companies in Hong Kong, they actually issue the currency for the Hong Kong government. They have a very interesting culture one element of which was a sinking fund, the annual contribution to which was never published before the annual statements were printed up. When the NY State Banking Dept. (Murial Seibert) objected they merely converted Marine Midland from a state to a fed charter. As savvy Scots they had some notable success until they bought Household Finance Corp. which was a disaster. They quickly righted the ship and cleaned up the mess well before the Mortgage meltdown. They are now the 12th largest bank in the world and own subsidiary in the Bank of the Middle East and Malaysia, Canada, Turkey and a host of others. In fact as an employee I had a 22 page memo of companies which we could not lend money to as they were in some way owned, controlled etc. by HSBC..
This is the fucking utter stupidity and bullshit corporations are famous for.
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Voting up, Voting down - If I really gave a fuck about your approval or not, I'd come and ask you.