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Free Software, a Matter of Life and Death

ChiefMonkeyGrinder writes "Software on medical implants is not open to scrutiny by regulatory bodies. Glyn Moody writes: 'Software with the ability to harm as well as help us in the physical world needs to be open to scrutiny to minimise safety issues. Medical devices may be the most extreme manifestation of this, but with the move of embedded software into planes, cars and other large and not-so-large devices with potentially lethal side-effects, the need to inspect software there too becomes increasingly urgent.' A new report 'Killed by Code: Software Transparency in Implantable Medical Devices' from the Software Freedom Law Center points out that, as patients grow more reliant on computerized devices, the dependability of software is a life-or-death issue. 'The need to address software vulnerability is especially pressing for Implantable Medical Devices, which are commonly used by millions of patients to treat chronic heart conditions, epilepsy, diabetes, obesity, and even depression.' Will making the source code free to scrutiny address the issue of faulty devices?"

197 comments

  1. I've got to say... by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 4, Funny

    That the Pacemaker Genuine Advantage warning I got last week was a bit of a shock...

    1. Re:I've got to say... by natehoy · · Score: 2, Funny

      ... or potential lack thereof when you need it.

      --
      "This post contains words, known to the State of California to cause thought. Wash brain thoroughly after reading."
    2. Re:I've got to say... by jaak · · Score: 2

      Haha, just think... somewhere out there is someone who is thinking it would be a great idea to run Windows Embedded in a pacemaker.

    3. Re:I've got to say... by Mongoose+Disciple · · Score: 5, Funny

      Blue Screen of Death, now with real death?

    4. Re:I've got to say... by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 4, Funny

      Well, do you want your pacemaker to have intuitive manageability through Group Policies, or not?

    5. Re:I've got to say... by CeruleanDragon · · Score: 1

      Blue Screen of Death, now with real death?

      I wish we could up-vote comments ourselves, I'd give this a ++.

      --
      ad astra per alia porci
    6. Re:I've got to say... by Mongoose+Disciple · · Score: 5, Funny

      Thanks!

      At least I didn't say it'd be the first killer app for the platform. Man, these jokes write themselves!

    7. Re:I've got to say... by Sponge+Bath · · Score: 4, Funny

      Roy: [answers phone] Hello, IT. Have you tried turning it off and on again?

    8. Re:I've got to say... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Party on Wayne

    9. Re:I've got to say... by jgagnon · · Score: 2, Informative

      Make sure you leave it off for at least 15 seconds before turning it back on...

      --
      Remember to maintain your supply of /facepalm oil to prevent chafing.
    10. Re:I've got to say... by Monkeedude1212 · · Score: 3, Informative

      I wish we could up-vote comments ourselves, I'd give this a ++.

      We do. You just have to earn them, that's all. And once you earn them, you can waste them on as many +funny's as you want.

    11. Re:I've got to say... by angelwolf71885 · · Score: 2, Funny

      i can just see it now bonzi buddy taping his bongos to the heart beat

    12. Re:I've got to say... by camperdave · · Score: 4, Funny

      just think... somewhere out there is someone who is thinking it would be a great idea to run Windows Embedded in a pacemaker.

      Just think... Somewhere out there is someone who writes pacemaker software who is thinking "There are alternatives to Windows Embedded?"

      --
      When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
    13. Re:I've got to say... by that+IT+girl · · Score: 1

      But then we could make real Androids.

      --
      10 FILL MUG WITH COFFEE
      20 DRINK COFFEE
      30 GOTO 10
    14. Re:I've got to say... by socrplayr813 · · Score: 0

      Blue Face of Death.

      --
      The confidence of ignorance will always overcome the indecision of knowledge.
    15. Re:I've got to say... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Whoa, A pacemaker with software. No need..... well mebe for a 400 pound cow that ate at mac dees all of there life. Adjust the rc network before the implant. They didn't have a life to start with.

    16. Re:I've got to say... by darkpixel2k · · Score: 1

      Make sure you leave it off for at least 15 seconds before turning it back on...

      Don't forget to reboot three times.

      --
      There's no place like ::1 (I've completed my transition to IPv6)
    17. Re:I've got to say... by davester666 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If this were important, then why is it so difficult to get to examine the software used in devices that can get your vehicle taken away, your drivers license suspended and/or revoked, and yourself thrown in jail for varying lengths of time?

      --
      Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
    18. Re:I've got to say... by natehoy · · Score: 1

      Because they, like voting machines, are written with piss-poor software that has so many holes anything any of them do would be inadmissible if anyone with half a brain cell really knew how much guess work was in... hey, who are you guys?

      Sorry, what was I saying? Oh, yeah, because if we do that the terrorists win. Now look directly into the 4 vertical lines at the end of paragraph for a few seconds and it'll all become clear to you.

      ||{begin code mindwipe
        brain.goback(10 seconds);
        brain.wipeRecentMemory(permanent);
      }||

      I just hope Slashdot supports embedded code.

      --
      "This post contains words, known to the State of California to cause thought. Wash brain thoroughly after reading."
    19. Re:I've got to say... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Who the fuck has an ID of 101334 but doesn't know shit about moderation??!

    20. Re:I've got to say... by CeruleanDragon · · Score: 1

      Who's got an ID of 101334? Is that good?

      --
      ad astra per alia porci
  2. Same article different day by guruevi · · Score: 4, Informative

    Dupe! This was covered a couple of days ago.

    --
    Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
    1. Re:Same article different day by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      care to provide a link? I read every day and did not see it, and couple searches turned up nothing.

    2. Re:Same article different day by betterunixthanunix · · Score: 2, Informative

      And as people pointed out the first time around, medical devices are tested extensively before being deployed. I am an ardent free software supporter, but the safety/reliability issue is simply the wrong argument. I would say the more important argument when it comes to medical software is control -- do you really want to have a corporation that you have absolutely no control over to be in control of a device that sustains your very life? What happens if that company goes bankrupt, and the source code dies with the company? What if they decide they want to start charging people a yearly fee for using their pacemakers (a situation that does not seem too far fetched, given what I have seen proprietary software companies do in the past)?

      --
      Palm trees and 8
    3. Re:Same article different day by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 4, Funny

      Not to worry. Authentication dongles will be available in a variety of sizes, to make insertion endurable for all our users.

    4. Re:Same article different day by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That's not specific to software-controlled devices though. If you're dependent on taking a pill every week to keep you alive and/or healthy, you're in trouble if the supply chain gets disrupted in any way.

    5. Re:Same article different day by kipd · · Score: 4, Informative

      Yes... No bugs, thoroughly tested: http://www.ccnr.org/fatal_dose.html

    6. Re:Same article different day by digitig · · Score: 1

      And as people pointed out the first time around, medical devices are tested extensively before being deployed.

      Not just tested. Safety-of-life systems are usually subject to extensive checks on the development process and in the most significant cases to extensive static analysis. Even if you opened the code up to inspection it would be pretty much useless without all of the design documentation and all the other documentation that explains why the code is sufficiently safe. I don't see how the free software model gives any significant safety advantage; all that would happen is the developers would get bogged down by people commenting that they haven't used the latest tricks for "efficiency", whereas in fact mission critical software deliberately sticks to boring, old-fashioned, tried-and-tested techniques.

      --
      Quidnam Latine loqui modo coepi?
    7. Re:Same article different day by shentino · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Running out of pills is one thing.

      Having your pace-maker shut down due to non-compliance with an EULA is quite another.

      Sure, corporations can make a killing...but it will come with a murder conviction.

      I seriously doubt it would EVER be legal to remotely disable a pace-maker.

    8. Re:Same article different day by jgagnon · · Score: 1

      "We didn't sell you that pacemaker, we leased it to you. You read the EULA before it was inserted, right?"

      --
      Remember to maintain your supply of /facepalm oil to prevent chafing.
    9. Re:Same article different day by betterunixthanunix · · Score: 1

      I seriously doubt it would EVER be legal to remotely disable a pace-maker.

      Why do you doubt that? "Our licensing is reasonable and non-discriminatory."

      Do you also doubt that a pacemaker manufacturer would refuse to provide a critical software update unless each pacemaker user pays them for it?

      --
      Palm trees and 8
    10. Re:Same article different day by Draek · · Score: 1

      Hell, what if some third-party finds your pacemaker infringes on their patent and demand monthly royalties from you? replacing, say, a pacemaker is a *bit* harder than uninstalling your copy of ffmpeg.

      --
      No problem is insoluble in all conceivable circumstances.
    11. Re:Same article different day by loshwomp · · Score: 1

      And as people pointed out the first time around, medical devices are tested extensively before being deployed. I am an ardent free software supporter, but the safety/reliability issue is simply the wrong argument. I would say the more important argument when it comes to medical software is control -- do you really want to have a corporation that you have absolutely no control over to be in control of a device that sustains your very life? What happens if that company goes bankrupt, and the source code dies with the company? What if they decide they want to start charging people a yearly fee for using their pacemakers (a situation that does not seem too far fetched, given what I have seen proprietary software companies do in the past)?

      I'd say those are all safety and reliability issues.

    12. Re:Same article different day by mea37 · · Score: 1

      Hmm... so by posting a ilnk to a single instance of a medical device on which testing was not sufficient, the point to which you're drawing attention is that no bug has ever escaped the scrutiny that goes with an open source philosophy?

      No significant system can be guaranteed bug free, regardless of the number of eyes on the source code. There are defined standards for safety of medical equipment. Would the overall safety be greater if you added "many eyeballs" to the testing already required? Maybe, maybe not; but - to GP's point - it's not a compelling argument. If it were a compelling argument, the safety standards would be tighter.

    13. Re:Same article different day by vlm · · Score: 1

      Sure, corporations can make a killing...but it will come with a murder conviction.

      I seriously doubt it would EVER be legal to remotely disable a pace-maker.

      Kind of like it would be illegal for an insurance company not to cover all prescription medicines, or for a pharm company to ever stop manufacturing a pill?

      --
      "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
    14. Re:Same article different day by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      More than a few proprietary software products have a "kill switch" or spyware functionality (sometimes at the request of governments, see http://www.phonearena.com/htmls/Microsoft-says-remote-app-kill-switch-in-Windows-Mobile-6.5-not-there-for-evil-article-a_6991.html ).

      Given that, why is it not conceivable that medical hardware also includes this functionality...especially since dictators in various countries might have no choice but to use these devices. If one of these dictators get too uppity, an "unfortunate heart attack" is just a signal away.

    15. Re:Same article different day by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      If any of those scenarios are possible they are possible with hardware just as easily as with software.

    16. Re:Same article different day by mcgrew · · Score: 2, Interesting

      do you really want to have a corporation that you have absolutely no control over to be in control of a device that sustains your very life?

      I'm glad my eye implant is mechanical and doesn't have any software.

      medical devices are tested extensively before being deployed

      I'm damned glad of that, too, but as it was only approved three years before I had the surgery, I do worry that the struts might break twenty or thirty years down the road. OTOH, I wouldn't have wanted to wait until I was 70 to have it; it's an acceptable risk to me.

    17. Re:Same article different day by westlake · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Do you really want to have a corporation that you have absolutely no control over to be in control of a device that sustains your very life?

      It can't be any other way.

      The development, testing, and licensing of the device could cost ten million dollars, a hundred million. There is no upper limit - and any company taking over the production and distribution of the device is going to see costs on the same scale.

      There simply aren't very many companies with the strength and experience to do that.

           

    18. Re:Same article different day by bberens · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Do you also doubt that a pacemaker manufacturer would refuse to provide a critical software update unless each pacemaker user pays them for it?

      Wait, do you mean before or after I talked to Action 9 news?

      --
      Check out my lame java blog at www.javachopshop.com
    19. Re:Same article different day by DerekLyons · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I would say the more important argument when it comes to medical software is control -- do you really want to have a corporation that you have absolutely no control over to be in control of a device that sustains your very life?

      And how is that worse having a group of random self appointed individuals, over whom I have absolutely no control, in control of a device that sustains my very life?
       

      What happens if that company goes bankrupt, and the source code dies with the company?

      From the number of FOSS projects I've seen die on the vine because the developers drift away to other interests or just drift away, I'm not certain that FOSS is any better. Making the assumption, of course, that for such a project as pacemaker code that a sufficient number of developers with the proper experience can be herded together at one time... This isn't a video codec or yet another word processor clone. This is a device upon which, as you said, people's lives depend. I'd be hesitant to trust 'some guy in a basement'.

    20. Re:Same article different day by hey! · · Score: 1

      I'm not so ready to believe that testing catches all possible bugs, especially when you are talking about a device that interacts with its environment and inputs in real time, as in the Therac 25 incident.

      Clearly that is much less likely to happen today, if modern software engineering employed. But the real world is full of the unexpected, and putting a CPU in a device makes its response to the unexpected potentially much more complex. How complex? As complex as a faulty algorithm could be. And you'll never catch that fault if the algorithm looks right to casual inspection and passes the tests you happen to have contrived.

      I believe, of course, that medical device software can be made reliable enough for a reasonable person. But in a universe of software that is safe enough for a reasonable person to trust, there are bound to be quite a few horrible mistakes. The vast majority of proprietary software will be fine, but when there is a problem, there are two issues we have to consider. The first is that the software developer's management has a conflict of interest. If it doesn't kill that many people (or hasn't killed anyone yet), they might choose to hide a defect and fix it in the next release. The second is that the software developer's engineers may not be able to find the fault, because it reflects deficiencies in their thinking and technique. Fresh eyes, free of any preconception are needed.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    21. Re:Same article different day by AaxelB · · Score: 1

      Nobody's suggesting that pacemaker code should be written and maintained by random volunteers, but that it should be *available* for anyone to review. I'd certainly feel more comfortable if I knew that the software keeping me alive was written and tested by a faceless corporation, reviewed and approved by a faceless government agency, and skimmed over by at least a few J. Random Hackers, as opposed to just written and tested in private by the faceless corporation without any external verification.

    22. Re:Same article different day by patchmaster · · Score: 1

      What if they decide they want to start charging people a yearly fee for using their pacemakers (a situation that does not seem too far fetched, given what I have seen proprietary software companies do in the past)?

      While possible, it's highly unlikely. These companies aren't proprietary software companies. They're medical device companies. They don't sell software, they sell medical devices. While the software is an integral part of the device, it's just one piece of many. These companies simply don't think of the software as a separate entity.

      As to the source code dying with a bankrupt company, do you really care? The device implanted in your body does what it does. If it doesn't work, you have it replaced. Would you really want to chance bricking your pacemaker during a firmware upgrade?

    23. Re:Same article different day by darkpixel2k · · Score: 1

      "We didn't sell you that pacemaker, we leased it to you. You read the EULA before it was inserted, right?"

      Insertion constitutes acceptance.

      Disturbing on the pacemaker and a variety of other levels.

      --
      There's no place like ::1 (I've completed my transition to IPv6)
    24. Re:Same article different day by DerekLyons · · Score: 1

      I'd certainly feel more comfortable if I knew that the software keeping me alive was written and tested by a faceless corporation, reviewed and approved by a faceless government agency, and skimmed over by at least a few J. Random Hackers

      Why? It's not J. Random Hacker has any capability to verify the code at any but the most basic level. This is custom code running on custom hardware with it's functions heavily bound by medical considerations.

    25. Re:Same article different day by Xarius · · Score: 1

      I don't think the idea behind this is to have a group of free loving hippies write the software for medical devices to "scratch an itch" (no offence intended!). The big companies that manufacture these should continue to write the software, but make it open source. This means it can still be peer reviewed, and if they go bust the next big company can pick right up from where they left off.

      --
      C17H21NO4
    26. Re:Same article different day by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sometimes I'd prefer only one corporation in control of something.
      But if you ever need a pacemaker you are free to get an open source variation and I'll happily post the wireless interface protocol to 4chan.

    27. Re:Same article different day by hitmark · · Score: 1

      "We didn't sell you the heart, we leased it to you. And your payment is overdue".

      --
      comment first, facts later. http://chem.tufts.edu/AnswersInScience/RelativityofWrong.htm
    28. Re:Same article different day by Jedi+Alec · · Score: 1

      "We didn't sell you that pacemaker, we leased it to you. You read the EULA before it was inserted, right?"

      Hmmm, and here I thought Repo Men was a work of fiction ;-)

      --

      People replying to my sig annoy me. That's why I change it all the time.
    29. Re:Same article different day by mpe · · Score: 1

      From the number of FOSS projects I've seen die on the vine because the developers drift away to other interests or just drift away, I'm not certain that FOSS is any better.

      It's rather more difficult to find out when something similar happens with proprietary software. Nor is it easy to identify proprietary software which really should have "died" for various reasons. Including being superceded by a better tool, being of very poor quality, etc.

    30. Re:Same article different day by mpe · · Score: 1

      But the real world is full of the unexpected, and putting a CPU in a device makes its response to the unexpected potentially much more complex. How complex? As complex as a faulty algorithm could be. And you'll never catch that fault if the algorithm looks right to casual inspection and passes the tests you happen to have contrived.

      An issue certainly not helped if it's possible to put what amounts to a general purpose OS into an embeded device. Which adds much unnecessary complexity which may avoid being tested at all.

      But in a universe of software that is safe enough for a reasonable person to trust, there are bound to be quite a few horrible mistakes. The vast majority of proprietary software will be fine, but when there is a problem, there are two issues we have to consider. The first is that the software developer's management has a conflict of interest. If it doesn't kill that many people (or hasn't killed anyone yet), they might choose to hide a defect and fix it in the next release. The second is that the software developer's engineers may not be able to find the fault, because it reflects deficiencies in their thinking and technique. Fresh eyes, free of any preconception are needed.

      It's quite possible that a major fault maybe very obvious to many people may be overlooked by those involved in the project because they are "too close to the problem"; it's outside of their specialty (security and cryptography being issues raised in the original article); etc.

    31. Re:Same article different day by mpe · · Score: 1

      While possible, it's highly unlikely. These companies aren't proprietary software companies. They're medical device companies. They don't sell software, they sell medical devices. While the software is an integral part of the device, it's just one piece of many. These companies simply don't think of the software as a separate entity.

      In which case what is the point of their using proprietary software in the first place?

    32. Re:Same article different day by DerekLyons · · Score: 1

      True, but irrelevant to my point - which is that the OP is treating FOSS as a panacea. It isn't.

    33. Re:Same article different day by DerekLyons · · Score: 1

      I don't think the idea behind this is to have a group of free loving hippies write the software for medical devices to "scratch an itch" (no offence intended!).

      If the can't write it - then what exactly are they doing?
       

      The big companies that manufacture these should continue to write the software, but make it open source. This means it can still be peer reviewed, and if they go bust the next big company can pick right up from where they left off.

      Given the unlikelihood of the 'free loving hippies' having any experience with specialized code running on specialized hardware, I really don't see how that's of much use. This isn't a program running on a vanilla PC. (And I haven't even mentioned the medical considerations that define the code and hardware's function - and with which the 'hippies' are equally unlikely to be familiar.) Worse yet, the code and hardware evolve separately and interdependently - and both are bound by the evolution of medical knowledge. (So any other company is unlikely to adopt the code - as it's heavily hardware bound.) My gut feeling is that the more specialized the problem domain, the less useful that FOSS is going to be - the 'hippies'/'basement dwellers' simply lack the education/experience to do much more than review the code at the most basic of levels.
       
      But my basic point is that the poster was complaining about the opacity of the Big Corp and that they are beyond the control of the end user - but in this instance, FOSS is no better from the same POV.

  3. Formal methods, not open code by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Just require that all such software rigorously use formal methods to mathematically prove that it functions as intended. The manufacturer could then send their proofs to some regulatory/standards agency to verify.

    1. Re:Formal methods, not open code by TheLink · · Score: 1

      It may work as intended/designed. But the intention/design could be wrong/mistaken.

      So what if you can prove that the software does "X" as designed? Very many bugs are because the spec/design should be to do "Y" instead.

      That's why math proofs of "software correctness" are not that useful in most real world scenarios.

      --
    2. Re:Formal methods, not open code by kav2k · · Score: 1

      But it is my understanding that from such a full proof of an algorithm's specification you can extract the algorithm itself, thanks to Curry-Howard.. Then again, maybe not always.

    3. Re:Formal methods, not open code by shentino · · Score: 1

      GIGO

    4. Re:Formal methods, not open code by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's effectively what's required. Proof how it will perform with of every possible state. The process is such a pain, medical device manufactures keep software use to a minimum. And if used, complexity to a minimum.

      That's why computer technology in medicine is so far behind the rest of the world.

    5. Re:Formal methods, not open code by jgagnon · · Score: 1

      GIDI (Garbage In, Death Imminent)

      --
      Remember to maintain your supply of /facepalm oil to prevent chafing.
    6. Re:Formal methods, not open code by Mikkeles · · Score: 1

      'It may work as intended/designed. But the intention/design could be wrong/mistaken.

      So what if you can test that the software does "X" as designed? Very many bugs are because the spec/design should be to do "Y" instead.

      That's why tests of "software correctness" are not that useful in most real world scenarios.'

      Modifying correct (verified) code to be valid is many times easier than modifying incorrect code to be valid.

      --
      Great minds think alike; fools seldom differ.
    7. Re:Formal methods, not open code by digitig · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Formal methods on their own are not enough -- at least, not with the current state of formal methods. Formal methods and testing tend to expose different bugs. But the principle is right: maybe an independent safety assessor evaluates the process and products, and the manufacturer submits their argument as to why the system is acceptably safe to a regulator.

      We need to be careful about what is "sufficiently safe" though. If somebody would die for sure without the implant then "the implant probably won't kill them" is a big improvement, whereas achieving "the implant almost certainly won't kill them" might price the implant out of reach of most people who need it so it goes back to the situation in which they die. As a rule of thumb, moving up one IEC61508 SIL increases costs by about an order of magnitude. Formal proofs mean that you're talking about SIL 4, so you're talking of the order of 10 000 times the cost of normal commercial standard software (treating that as SIL 0). Increase the development cost of a life-saving implant by a factor of 10 000 and unless you have massive economies of scale you're going to end up indirectly killing people by pricing it out of the market.

      --
      Quidnam Latine loqui modo coepi?
    8. Re:Formal methods, not open code by russotto · · Score: 2, Funny

      Just require that all such software rigorously use formal methods to mathematically prove that it functions as intended. The manufacturer could then send their proofs to some regulatory/standards agency to verify.

      Look, if you don't like the idea of implanted medical devices controlled by software, just say so.

    9. Re:Formal methods, not open code by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Look, if you don't like the idea of implanted medical devices controlled by software, just say so.

      I don't understand the problem? Is it strange that people find it more comfortable when they know that the software is safe?
      What does that have to do with not liking medical devices controlled by software? Of course the software have to be safe.

  4. Makes sense by MBGMorden · · Score: 4, Insightful

    To me, this is just common sense. This code doesn't necessarily have to be FL/OSS in my mind - let them keep the copyright, but it most definitely should have code available for public review. Would you be willing to take a new wonderdrug where the drug company won't tell anyone what's actually in it, but assures you that it'll work? If they must disclose the formula to their drugs, then they ought to be required to disclose the code to their software. Let existing laws like copyright ensure that no one else uses it.

    --
    "People who think they know everything are very annoying to those of us who do."-Mark Twain
    1. Re:Makes sense by betterunixthanunix · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Except that the mechanisms behind many of the drugs we use are not fully understood by the companies that make those drugs. They only disclose the chemical formula behind the drugs, not the logic of why that particular chemical works the way it does.

      --
      Palm trees and 8
    2. Re:Makes sense by MBGMorden · · Score: 1

      While that presents some difficulty, it's still not that bad. IMHO, that's akin to releasing the code with the comments stripped out. Sure, it makes testing more difficult, but it does ensure that you can reproduce their pill/executable to run tests on yourself.

      --
      "People who think they know everything are very annoying to those of us who do."-Mark Twain
    3. Re:Makes sense by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      In that case the engineering drawings for a 777 (or anything else) should also be open to public scrutiny. Is that reasonable?

    4. Re:Makes sense by MBGMorden · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Some level of documentation for such things will be available. How do you think A&P's all over the country work on them? Just pop the hood and figure it out as they go along?

      And yes, I think that anything on which the safety of a life depends should be open to scrutiny. Alarm clocks and keyboards? Not so much.

      --
      "People who think they know everything are very annoying to those of us who do."-Mark Twain
    5. Re:Makes sense by dj961 · · Score: 1

      Not it's more like a black box where we know most of the inputs but don't know the all outputs.

    6. Re:Makes sense by LWATCDR · · Score: 1

      Maybe but this problem has already been solved.
      The aerospace industry has been flying code that can kill for decades. They have a procedures to develop and test mission critical code for everything from navigation to flight control systems.
      Is it prefect? No but the system does seem to work well. Just base the certification process for medical software on the certification process for aerospace software and you have a good working solution.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    7. Re:Makes sense by Snowmit · · Score: 1

      What you're describing is patents on software.

      --
      I have a lot of opinions about Cyborgs and Architects
    8. Re:Makes sense by Hatta · · Score: 2, Informative

      This code doesn't necessarily have to be FL/OSS in my mind - let them keep the copyright

      Authors of open source software retain their copyright.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    9. Re:Makes sense by daviee · · Score: 1

      Do you think any civil engineers with a degree can just walk to any construction site and get full compliance from the site people to give them anything they need to analyze whether their design, construction, etc. are safe?

      Now open that up to let anyone walk in...

    10. Re:Makes sense by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The cheap Chinese copies made from the "open to scrutiny" plans are probably not going to be as safe as the Boeing originals.

    11. Re:Makes sense by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is true of all medical treatment. Until full-body molecular simulation is possible, this will continue to be the case.

    12. Re:Makes sense by JWSmythe · · Score: 2, Insightful

          It's the same argument that an automobile manufacturer doesn't release the detailed specs of a vehicle, because the owners manual doesn't show a breakdown of the engine. They are available (for a price, of course) to the people that need the information.

          Here's the list of manuals for a Boeing 777.

          But for both aircraft and auto manufacturers, I don't believe they release detailed specs of say the software that makes their vehicles work. I doubt A&P mechanics are fixing software flaws in the autopilot, just as auto mechanics can't fix the software in the cruise control. It's the same as a doctor wouldn't be able to change the software controlling a pacemaker.

          I know plenty of automobile electronics have been reverse engineered, but that's due to the number available to work with, and the potential profit to be had from tuning the software. Most of us wouldn't know where to get our hands on a new or used pacemaker to begin reverse engineering it. I definitely wouldn't be able to get my hands on a new or used 777, nor have anywhere to store it. It's a bit bigger than most of our garages, and I can't imagine our significant others not minding that we have one in the garage.

      --
      Serious? Seriousness is well above my pay grade.
    13. Re:Makes sense by MBGMorden · · Score: 1

      No, I said copyrights. Patents are a completely different animal. I personally see no need to protect the manufacturer's algorithm on detection of a particular trait, even if it could be reimplemented in different code. And yes, I feel that that algorithm should be publicly reviewable if someone's life depends on it.

      --
      "People who think they know everything are very annoying to those of us who do."-Mark Twain
    14. Re:Makes sense by MBGMorden · · Score: 1

      True. Poor choice of wording. Authors of open source code keep their copyright, but it really only applies to the opportunity to close the code again. Any version that has been legitimately released under the GPL and makes it into the wild can't be retracted. Others could still re-release the code again with modifications. That ability doesn't need to be there at in in this case. The point here isn't to promote or enable derivative works, but rather to ensure safety and security of the code.

      --
      "People who think they know everything are very annoying to those of us who do."-Mark Twain
    15. Re:Makes sense by digitig · · Score: 1

      The number of people in this discussion who think that safety is a matter of testing seems to me to be a pretty good indicator of why the idea won't work.

      --
      Quidnam Latine loqui modo coepi?
    16. Re:Makes sense by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      I very much doubt the full engineering documentation is available, and it is almost never available publicly. Many critical systems manufacturers will already make some parts of the software specifications, testing methodology, troubleshooting guides, etc. available to people authorized to make repairs or do troubleshooting.

    17. Re:Makes sense by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      Mechanics also don't fix the cruise control hardware. They throw out the unit and buy a new one. Ditto with pacemakers and 777s. If the part doesn't work, you get a new one. The provided information usually only describes the system down to the level of replaceable components, not below. The software in each of those replaceable components is part of the black box.

      Did your computer come with the circuit diagram for the motherboard (the Apple II did)? Suppose something goes wrong and you need to fix it? Today you don't - you toss it and get a new one.

    18. Re:Makes sense by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Let us be very clear, the originator of a piece of software absolutely retains the copyright to that code when publishing it under any OSI or FSF approved F/OSS license. Please try your best not to proliferate FUD. The meaning of F/OSS isn't that copyright is relinquished, rather it is a guarantee that it will be enforced in a particular, and permissive, way. To be sure, without the retention of copyright, GPL-style licenses would NOT be enforceable at all. How can I, the originator of a piece of software prosecute an entity for redistributing a GPL-licensed work in violation of the terms of the GPL without retaining my copyright?

    19. Re:Makes sense by socrplayr813 · · Score: 1

      This is what the FDA (in the USA) is for. There are similar organizations in other countries.

      I do quality assurance for a medical device manufacturer. Anybody who has dealt with medical devices and the FDA knows that you don't mess with the FDA. Period. They take public safety very, very seriously.

      Opening code to the public is not necessarily the best way to do this. I can't say it's definitively a BAD thing, but I can see it causing more issues than it's worth. If everybody knows how the device works, everybody has the potential to exploit it, and many devices would not be easily fixed - pacemakers and the like, obviously, are not removed very often. I see quite a bit of potential for trouble when it comes to medical stuff.

      --
      The confidence of ignorance will always overcome the indecision of knowledge.
    20. Re:Makes sense by JWSmythe · · Score: 2, Interesting

          I almost totally agree. Most parts are made to be replaced as a module. When's the last time you replaced the bearings in a hard drive, or soldered a pin on a memory stick? But, sometimes we do, and that's without the assistance of technical schematics.

          A few months ago, I was given a hard drive to fix. The machine had been hit by a power surge, and a chip on the control board (the one on the bottom of the hard drive) melted. I replaced the board, and the drive started working again. Normally I wouldn't have touched it, but there's a long back story on it, and I didn't want to send them off for a very expensive hard drive recovery. Even still, I could have opted to replace the chip, rather than replacing the whole board.

          In my car (4th gen TransAm), the headlight motor stopped working. Normal procedure is to replace the motor. The better fix is to replace the worn gear with a better one, which involves dismantling the defective component. GM doesn't provide documentation on doing that.

          I know with aircraft, if it's not done the "right" way, the FAA gets a bit upset. I'm not an aircraft mechanic, but I'd suspect if you cracked open a modular component and swapped a piece of the inside, they would be less than entertained.

      --
      Serious? Seriousness is well above my pay grade.
    21. Re:Makes sense by trout007 · · Score: 1

      Here is one of those "when I was a kid" stories. Back in the old days when you wanted to safely control a machine you used pneumatic logic. You had the same logic operators like and/or delays,ect. So your sensor would be a little valve that when pressed would cause air to flow and activate the circuit. Then relay logic took over which was much faster and allowed the addition of electronic sensors like micro switches. Then we had Programmable Logic Controllers. These were computers but not general purpose. Their only purpose in life was to read the inputs, run the logic, set the outputs, and repeat. What was great about them is they didn't do anything else and the cycle time was fixed. They would run forever. What was neat is the programming language was called ladder logic and looked like a relay logic schematic so replacing a relay system with a PLC was pretty easy. You would store the program on an EEPROM. For fail safe systems we would write the requirements for the program and have two different engineers write the code to implement it and the two PLC's would read in and if there was a difference in the output than the system would shut down in a safe mode. If you needed fail operational you could use 3 PLC's or more PLC's and have them vote.

      --
      I love Jesus, except for his foreign policy.
    22. Re:Makes sense by karcirate · · Score: 1

      That's true, they don't tell us why. Why? Often they do not know themselves.

      Though I have actually seen drug info sheets that specify the formula and then actually state outright that they do not know exactly why it does what it does (but hey, it works, so who cares?)

    23. Re:Makes sense by cdrguru · · Score: 1

      Actually, that is a really great idea. A large part of the cost of such devices is the development of the software, so opening it up would enable other companies to just reuse the software with cloned hardware. Cheaper and it would be available to more people.

      We have seen how good the Chinese are at cloning, maybe they should try medical devices to go along with drywall, toys and cat food. Then your doctor could offer the insurance company a cheaper device that they would gladly pay less to get put into the patient.

      Software has value, and if you want to destroy that value you are going to get the consequences showing up in very creative ways. Forcing a company to release their software would be destroying the value of it.

    24. Re:Makes sense by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      Yeah, there are people who crack open the modules in a car or do interesting things to circuit boards, without the help of schematics. There are also people who do the equivalents of those things to software, without the source.

      Personally I don't think we'd gain anything from making it mandatory to publish the source code OR the engineering documentation for a 777, say. Although the average Slashdotter thinks he's a software engineering expert, the expertise to properly assess either of those things is fairly rare, and the people with that expertise are generally too busy with their real jobs to do thorough code validation for free.

    25. Re:Makes sense by ThrowAwaySociety · · Score: 1

      In that case the engineering drawings for a 777 (or anything else) should also be open to public scrutiny. Is that reasonable?

      Absolutely

    26. Re:Makes sense by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      I'm sorry, I wasn't able to download the CAD files for the wing design of the 777. Perhaps you could provide a deeper link?

      Actually, the page you linked to seems to be talking a lot about software.

    27. Re:Makes sense by mpe · · Score: 1

      Most of us wouldn't know where to get our hands on a new or used pacemaker to begin reverse engineering it.

      Considering that such devices would be considered "hazmat" in the case of cremation quite possibly even in a grave there's a quite obvious place to look.

  5. Not a question of badly written software by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

    The thing about this is that this is not really a question about badly written software. I think the current regulatory system provides a high enough level of protection against badly written software that making the software open source would not add a significant amount of increased security. However, a greater concern is the possibility that someone could insert code with specific triggers which could be used for malicious purposes. It is not that I believe that they would, it is that the implications for our society if someone did are so severe that some effort must be made to reduce the chances of that happening.

    --
    The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    1. Re:Not a question of badly written software by Fallon · · Score: 1

      The thing about this is that this is not really a question about badly written software. I think the current regulatory system provides a high enough level of protection against badly written software that making the software open source would not add a significant amount of increased security. However, a greater concern is the possibility that someone could insert code with specific triggers which could be used for malicious purposes. It is not that I believe that they would, it is that the implications for our society if someone did are so severe that some effort must be made to reduce the chances of that happening.

      I have several diabetic friends with insulin pumps... It's been found that the wireless protocols used by these pumps to communicate with sensors & other devices is plain text and completely unauthenticated. That makes the very real possibility somebody can hack the pump and kill my friends with very little defenses in the way to stop them. A lot of implanted devices are no different, wide open just relying on people not bothering to try. Very poor security that I wouldn't want to stake my life on. What regulatory system has caused the devices to be secure so far? None.

    2. Re:Not a question of badly written software by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      I've worked many years on medical devices (not implantable). The FDA has a strong regulatory oversight, as long as many other regulatory bodies (international as well). This includes scouring through bug lists, reviewing QA procedures, etc. And these were relatively safe and benign devices.

    3. Re:Not a question of badly written software by bws111 · · Score: 1

      This is exactly why the code should not be 'open'. You just wind up with hysterics like yours, and very little in the way of actually useful information. Did it occur to you that security may be way down on the list of concerns when making such a device? Actual real-world things are somewhat more important. Like battery life. Trying to maintain communications under all circumstances. Heat generated. Reliability.

      Yes, theoretically someone could kill your friends by hacking their insulin pumps. Or, they could just shoot them, or run them down with a car, or poison their food, or steal their insulin, or use any of the other thousands of ways you could kill someone.

    4. Re:Not a question of badly written software by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      And in what way would any of the various regulatory agencies catch an intentional backdoor left in one of these devices? Or a kill switch?

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    5. Re:Not a question of badly written software by Yetihehe · · Score: 1

      Yeah, but typically not by passing by in a place with many people with a radio in pocket. Plus no one would notice it immediately and the user would just collapse some time after.

      --
      Extreme Programming - Redundant Array of Inexpensive Developers
    6. Re:Not a question of badly written software by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      You are right that there are other things that are more important than security in the design and development of these devices and those things were rightly solved first. Now that those things have mostly been solved it is time to start thinking about security and to start fixing the security issues that were left open while the more important issues were resolved.
      Most of the other ways that someone could kill another person leave significant evidence as to who committed the crime. Right now, there is very little chance of identifying who used wireless access to a medical device to kill someone.
      This is not an "OMG the sky is falling, do something NOW" type of problem. This is a "You know, this is going to cause problems sooner or later, we should figure out how to prevent as many of those problems as possible as we get the chance" type of problem.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    7. Re:Not a question of badly written software by bws111 · · Score: 1

      The lack of security is not a flaw, it is a design choice. The company (and regulators) know very well that the device is insecure. What could possibly be gained by exposing that situation to the world?

      Secondly, you can't magically add security and not affect one of the other things. Encryption is compute-intensive, which means more heat, less battery life, and more complexity. Now, maybe if new longer life batteries come along you could add security and not sacrifice battery life. Or you could say 'which do my customers prefer more - longer battery life, or protection against some remotely thin possibility of hacking'?

    8. Re:Not a question of badly written software by bws111 · · Score: 1

      What would be the point of putting an intentional back door or kill switch in a medical device?

      Once you have reached your level of paranoia you should know that just because you are looking at SOME source code does not mean it exactly matches the binary in your device. There could always be something in the tool chain that inserts backdoors and kill switches independent of the source code. So unless you are planning on building your own tool chain from scratch, inspecting, compiling, and actually installing the result on your device you still don't know that it is 'safe'. And once you do all that, you can kiss your warranty and any manufacturer liability goodbye.

    9. Re:Not a question of badly written software by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      The risk of these devices getting hacked is not "remotely thin". As they become more common the odds of one or more of these devices getting hacked rises steadily. At some point someone will hack one of these just for kicks (if for no other reason). When that happens, if there are no security measures of any kind, it is likely to become either an epidemic of copycats or the first person will be a serial killer.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    10. Re:Not a question of badly written software by patchmaster · · Score: 1

      I would add a couple things to this line of thought. First, the individuals I've worked with take product safety very seriously. Our fathers and sisters and children may well be in line to use the products we develop. This is not an issue that's taken lightly.

      Second, the medical device companies I've worked for take FDA oversight VERY seriously. Aside from the moral considerations, the FDA has the power to literally padlock the doors and pull your products from store/hospital shelves. If you don't satisfy the FDA that you're doing a good job, you can be out of business overnight. No business person takes something like that lightly.

      Open review of medical device software would be unlikely to increase safety, yet would be guaranteed to greatly increase the cost of developing these devices as people would have to be assigned to investigate code review issues from the public, regardless of whether they were well founded. The number of trash complaints about code formatting, naming conventions, etc. would be overwhelming.

      .

  6. Open - not necessarily free by kubitus · · Score: 1
    open to allow analysis

    and maybe free as in reusable to improve it,

    but not necessarily free as in beer!

  7. People will die by clang_jangle · · Score: 1

    People will die from shortcomings of technology, whether the tech is FOSS or not. Capitalism being the state religion in most of the developed world, I think it's safe to say that proprietary software will be with us forever. Fortunately, idealism is still a common enough human trait we can say the same of FOSS. One isn't going to "win" over the other, ever. We will simply continue to have both. And that's as it should be.

    --
    Caveat Utilitor
    1. Re:People will die by betterunixthanunix · · Score: 1

      Personally, I would not be very comfortable if a company I have absolutely no control over has control over the software that runs the pacemaker in my chest. What if they decide to start charging a yearly fee for their pacemaker software? What if they refuse to provide critical software updates unless I fork over more money to them?

      Medical software should be libre, there is just no arguing that. When it comes to software that sustains a person's life, no single corporation or entity of any sort should have absolute control over that software.

      --
      Palm trees and 8
    2. Re:People will die by bws111 · · Score: 1

      Their software makes you 'uncomfortable'? Well, don't use it - that should ease your discomfort. OK, you may be dead, but hey, at least those greedy bastards aren't getting any of YOUR money.

    3. Re:People will die by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Dude, too much paranoia...
      1-) If things get THESE far, government should be the one to take action.
      2-) If they do such a thing, no one else will use their stuff, and they will get out of business.

    4. Re:People will die by digitig · · Score: 1

      People will die from shortcomings of technology, whether the tech is FOSS or not.

      And since we're talking about medical implants here, even more people will die without the technology. That's no reason not to try to improve the safety of the implants, but we need to keep it in perspective.

      --
      Quidnam Latine loqui modo coepi?
    5. Re:People will die by digitig · · Score: 1

      Personally, I would not be very comfortable if a company I have absolutely no control over has control over the software that runs the pacemaker in my chest.

      If you needed one, you'd be a damn site less comfortable without the pacemaker. Briefly.

      What if they decide to start charging a yearly fee for their pacemaker software?

      How would they enforce it? The things are not connected to the internet, you know.

      What if they refuse to provide critical software updates unless I fork over more money to them?

      Er -- do you actually know what a pacemaker is? What would comprise a "critical software update"? The whole thing gets replaced every few years, anyway, because of battery life.

      --
      Quidnam Latine loqui modo coepi?
    6. Re:People will die by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh sure, but *whose* perspective?
      Mine is this: homo sapiens is not exactly an endangered species. I don't want to live forever and I don't want you to live forever either.
      Let's trim us down to 2.5 million or so on earth, the sooner the better! And yes, if it were to be seriously considered for implementation, I would volunteer to be one of the culled. Your selfish ass may vary.
       
      --
      DUH!

    7. Re:People will die by digitig · · Score: 1

      I'm with you completely. I'd volunteer you to be one of the culled too.

      --
      Quidnam Latine loqui modo coepi?
    8. Re:People will die by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      What if they decide to start charging a yearly fee for their pacemaker software? What if they refuse to provide critical software updates unless I fork over more money to them?

      In a medical device that it required to be tested and certified, they couldn't use the exception that it's not intended for be fit for a particular use nor could they get it certified if it stopped functioning before the allotted time span for any reason.

      What you would have if they attempted to apply either of those is a device that never makes it to market legally or an obvious warranty issue that would be backed by a medical malpractice issue because of the critical update and not being addressed by the testing and certification process.

      You cannot compare medical software on critical devices like a pacemaker with your windows powered laptop or your Linux converted desktop. Neither of the two have the same requirements and/or liability expectations as a medical device. It's not even the same as say an Xray or MRI machine being inoperative until you give payment or risk the guy in ICU capturing the images with his android phone. You have a lot better position of leverage when the device was purchased with the idea of keeping you alive because the FDA allowed them to make that claim.

  8. You mean this stuff has to be robust? by Just_Say_Duhhh · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    commonly used by millions of patients to treat chronic heart conditions, epilepsy, diabetes, obesity, and even depression.

    Of course, the #1 software used to treat depression (even though it doesn't work) is Facebook. Does that mean they need to go open source?

    And Facebook is also the #1 software used to cause chronic heart conditions, diabetes, obesity (and very successfully, thank you).

    --
    I need trepanation like I need a hole in the head.
    1. Re:You mean this stuff has to be robust? by betterunixthanunix · · Score: 1

      Here I was, thinking that Facebook was the software the created depression...

      Or was that MySpace?

      --
      Palm trees and 8
  9. Lots of tedious details by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I am sure I will be mod'd down for this but... Writing safety critical software requires a level of testing, documentation and traceability that I seriously doubt the open source community would tolerate. Many, if not most, open source projects don't even keep a reasonably current wiki let alone a complete set of traceable requirements, design and formal tests. I don't blame people for not wanting to do this sort of work for free - but it is very important when developing systems which need to run reliably for decades or someone will die.

    1. Re:Lots of tedious details by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I don't think that the notion is that all medical code is going to be written by happy-go-lucky FOSS volunteers, the notion is that people ought to be able to inspect the code that is going to becoming a part of their life-critical systems...

    2. Re:Lots of tedious details by Kjella · · Score: 1

      This is pretty much what I'm thinking too, you can't just throw up an open source repository and say that's good enough testing. You have to run through a proper process with testing and documentation of all that testing, and if that is proof of sufficient testing then what does open source add to that? Sure, there's the possibility that some random open source review will find flaws that the official, documented process missed but it'd be no necessity. If it was a necessity it would mean the formal process is insufficient to put it to medical use. Or to put it more bluntly, this is "nice to have".

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    3. Re:Lots of tedious details by bws111 · · Score: 1

      What good is that going to do? Who is qualified to look at it? It seems to me you would not only have to understand programming, but also the actual hardware it is controlling, the conditions it is supposed to be treating, biology, etc. If you can do all that chances are you work for a medical devices company. If someone does inspect the code, and says it is OK, does that absolve the manufacturer from all liability?

  10. Where is this ideal world where the FOSS? by not+already+in+use · · Score: 1, Insightful

    The typical FOSS argument usually involves living in a perfectly ideal world. You know, the kind of world where highly qualified individuals scour the internet for code to audit. And where Russian (et al) hackers don't scour open source code looking for exploits to cash in on.

    --
    Similes are like metaphors
    1. Re:Where is this ideal world where the FOSS? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      The typical FOSS argument usually involves living in a perfectly ideal world. You know, the kind of world where highly qualified individuals scour the internet for code to audit. And where Russian (et al) hackers don't scour open source code looking for exploits to cash in on.

      No, that's the strawman FOSS argument. Most of us FOSS guys are living in the real world, where neither of those things happen.

        FOSS doesn't rely on people "scouring the internet" - just the coders and users of a program tracking down bugs in a natural way, which will usually turn up problems in a timely manner.
        Some security group about 7 or 8 years ago ran a study of a few different webservers and their code flaws -- the result was that they all started out with a similar number of bugs, but the open source project slowly pulled ahead of the closed source project, as its bugs got fixed more often and faster.

        Also, Russian hackers don't "scour open source code looking for exploits" because finding a bad piece of code is an entirely separate issue to finding out how to exploit a flaw. Just because you've found an unchecked boundary or something doesn't necessarily mean you even can exploit it, and it generally doesn't do more than give you a hint of how it might be exploited.
        Which is a huge waste of time, compared to actually banging on the compiled program with automated tools looking for something that works.

    2. Re:Where is this ideal world where the FOSS? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And where Russian (et al) hackers don't scour open source code looking for exploits to cash in on.

      Haha, yes, nice dig against the Russians there. The cold war's over, didn't you get the memo?

      For that matter, this isn't about exploits, either - how many pacemakers have you seen that are connected to the Internet? This is about being able to verify the correctness of the code, ideally in a strict mathematical sense (i.e., proving it formally correct), and that's kinda hard to do when you don't have the code in the first place.

    3. Re:Where is this ideal world where the FOSS? by gmuslera · · Score: 1

      In open code, if a good guy checks the code and finds it, the authors gets the message, the community is warned till an official patch is usually fast released and the problem fixed. If a bad guy does, at least have the same chances than the good guy, the developers, or big companies that plan on deploy it and check it.

      In close code, if a good guy... well, forgets it, licences dont enable you to do almost anything, in fact, reverse engineering or even trying to find bugs could gets you prison, and if you avoid that, hell will fall upon you if you try to disclose it. Even if the authors notice it, they could take months or years trying to keep that secret till appears some extended enough exploit, and then they will consider on fixing it. And if a bad guy using whatever illegal method as he don't care find some vulnerability, will exploit it, and with a bit of bad luck, in a targetted way on you.

    4. Re:Where is this ideal world where the FOSS? by RAMMS+EIN · · Score: 1

      Actually, I live in a world where I don't get access to the source code to Windows, but the Russians (et al) that you seem to fear so much do. Now, I don't actually use Windows for anything critical, so this doesn't affect me as much as it does some, but if you are so concerned about Russian (et al) hackers, shouldn't you be _for_ open source, so that you and the rest of the good guys can look at the source and fix and/or defend against any flaws that are found?

      --
      Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
    5. Re:Where is this ideal world where the FOSS? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In open code, if a good guy checks the code and finds it, the authors gets the message, the community is warned till an official patch is usually fast released and the problem fixed. If a bad guy does, at least have the same chances than the good guy, the developers, or big companies that plan on deploy it and check it.

      You forgot the case where the authors can't be bothered to fix the problems you found because they've moved onto other things and fixing those particular problems doesn't really fit with their vision for the project, and when pressed on the issue, they tell you that the source is available so stop bothering them and fix the code yourself.

    6. Re:Where is this ideal world where the FOSS? by not+already+in+use · · Score: 1

      Since people seem to nitpicking the hypothetical example I used rather than the point itself, let me use a real world example.

      FOSS advocates are known for saying things like, "Release the code, and the community will port/fix/whatever!" So Chrome is released and initially isn't ported to Linux. So what does the FOSS crowd do in the real world? Complain that Google doesn't support Linux because *they* won't port their open source product to Linux for them. And then of course is the ATI driver fiasco.

      So to reiterate my general point -- Only in an ideal world do unpaid, highly qualified people do with open source code, what the FOSS community says they will.

      --
      Similes are like metaphors
    7. Re:Where is this ideal world where the FOSS? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In this case, I think you might actually have those highly qualified individuals available - any programmer with such a device (pacemaker, etc) is going to have a lot of self-interest in auditing the code.

    8. Re:Where is this ideal world where the FOSS? by RAMMS+EIN · · Score: 1

      ``So to reiterate my general point -- Only in an ideal world do unpaid, highly qualified people do with open source code, what the FOSS community says they will.''

      I don't know. Of course, there are always people in any community who make claims that will not be substantiated. So in that sense, you are right. However, that doesn't tell us anything about whether open source is a net win or not.

      Since you didn't want me to pick on your examples, I won't (even though I don't think they support the point you are trying to make, whatever it is). But we were talking about Free software in systems that people's lives depend on, and you seemed to be making the point that the argument for Free software depends on living in an ideal world where the good guys scour the code for bugs to fix, and the bad guys don't scour the code for bugs to exploit. That is the point you are trying to make, right?

      My response to that is that, no, the argument for open source does not depend on those premises. In fact, the assumption is and should be that the bad guys are going to find bugs to exploit. Real world experience shows that this is the case for software no matter if it is open source or not. Access to the source? They may or may not have it. At least China and Russia have been given access to the source code to Windows. The bad guys are probably not going to be stopped by laws and licenses that say they cannot copy, modify, disassemble, etc. Open source _allows_ the good guys to inspect the source and so more easily find the bugs form themselves, and _allows_ the bugs to be fixed by the good guys. So the argument for open source in this case is that, given that the bad guys are going to find bugs and are going to exploit them, open source _allows_ you to find and fix the bugs before they get you.

      --
      Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
  11. Crowd sourcing your Quality Assurance department? by stagg · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I'm a big fan of FOSS, but I've got my QA methodology hat on right now. Opening up the source code isn't providing better Quality Assurance coverage, it's just getting more eyes on the code, and at best a bunch of User Acceptance Testing. (Though clearly not with pace makers, I doubt people are going to line up for that Beta test. Unless maybe Blizzard claims it's part of their next big MMO.) This could be as much an argument for higher standards of quality assurance as for open source software. In face, hell, I can see companies opening up the source to reduce their liability and cut the costs of their own QA.

  12. Give new meaning to the word by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    heartworm.

  13. Operator Error by Darkness404 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Even the best software can go completely wrong with the wrong person operating it.

    --
    Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
  14. Favorite Quotes from TFA by xemc · · Score: 0

    In one experimental attack conducted in the study, researchers were able to first disable the ICD to prevent it from delivering a life-saving shock and then direct the same device to deliver multiple shocks averaging 137.7 volts that would induce ventricular fibrillation in a patient. The study concluded that there were no “technological mechanisms in place to ensure that programmers can only be operated by authorized personnel.” Fu’s findings show that almost anyone could use store-bought tools to build a device that could “be easily miniaturized to the size of an iPhone and carried through a crowded mall or subway, sending its heart-attack command to random victims.” ..

    Though the adversarial conditions demonstrated in Fu’s studies were hypothetical, two early incidents of malicious hacking underscore the need to address the threat software liabilities pose to the security of IMDs. In November 2007, a group of attackers infiltrated the Coping with Epilepsy website and planted flashing computer animations that triggered migraine headaches and seizures in photosensitive site visitors.13 A year later, malicious hackers mounted a similar attack on the Epilepsy Foundation website.14

    1. Re:Favorite Quotes from TFA by xemc · · Score: 1, Informative

      The article also links to: http://cio-nii.defense.gov/sites/oss/Open_Source_Software_(OSS)_FAQ.htm#Q:_Doesn.27t_hiding_source_code_automatically_make_software_more_secure.3F

      Excerpt:

          Q: Doesn't hiding source code automatically make software more secure?

      No. Indeed, vulnerability databases such as CVE make it clear that merely hiding source code does not counter attacks:

              * Dynamic attacks (e.g., generating input patterns to probe for vulnerabilities and then sending that data to the program to execute) don’t need source or binary. Observing the output from inputs is often sufficient for attack.
              * Static attacks (e.g., analyzing the code instead of its execution) can use pattern-matches against binaries - source code is not needed for them either.
              * Even if source code is necessary (e.g., for source code analyzers), adequate source code can often be regenerated by disassemblers and decompilers sufficiently to search for vulnerabilities. Such source code may not be adequate to cost-effectively maintain the software, but attackers need not maintain software.
              * Even when the original source is necessary for in-depth analysis, making source code available to the public significantly aids defenders and not just attackers. Continuous and broad peer-review, enabled by publicly available source code, improves software reliability and security through the identification and elimination of defects that might otherwise go unrecognized by the core development team. Conversely, where source code is hidden from the public, attackers can attack the software anyway as described above. In addition, an attacker can often acquire the original source code from suppliers anyway (either because the supplier voluntarily provides it, or via attacks against the supplier); in such cases, if only the attacker has the source code, the attacker ends up with another advantage.

      Hiding source code does inhibit the ability of third parties to respond to vulnerabilities (because changing software is more difficult without the source code), but this is obviously not a security advantage. In general, “Security by Obscurity” is widely denigrated.

  15. New meaning to iHeart Huckabees? by CeruleanDragon · · Score: 1

    New from Apple, the iHeart, with iPod/iPhone docking station, it'll give new meaning to dancing to the beat.

    --
    ad astra per alia porci
  16. Visible code helps... by 91degrees · · Score: 1

    But really what you need is established code standards, designed to substantially reduce the possibility of errors based on known faults, and an absolute rule that they not be violated, code reviews, and an independent third party auditing both the standards and the code produced to ensure it's compliant with these standards.

  17. Double-edged sword by gmueckl · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Making the code available for scrutiny is a double-edged sword. Sure, it might help to catch critical bugs in the software faster. But with some devices, it really raises a host of new issues. Some pacemakers out there are configurable wirelessly once they are in the patient's body. This is actually a very critical feature. But do you want to risk everyone being able to reverse-engineer the protocol used for adjusting the settings for such a device? A wrongly configured pacemaker can be deadly. Right now these things are fairly secure because they are rather rare and not interesting enough as targets for hacking.

    Besides, proving that some piece of code works as intended (or at least fails gracefully in all circumstances) in an essentially uncontrolled environment is quite a feat. Embedded equipment is hard to service, has to have a longer hardware lifespan than normal hardware, is often custom designed for a single application and thus may have subtle hardware defects not reproducible on similar test systems... oh, and who says that the compiler or even the CPU is bug free? This is all common knowledge around here, but I just want to give the full list. What this means is that just opening the source code might not cut it. The validation would have to be performed on the hardware it was designed to run. So, where's the call to open up the hardware design and documentation to public scrutiny as well?

    --
    http://www.moonlight3d.eu/
    1. Re:Double-edged sword by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Making the code available for scrutiny is a double-edged sword. Sure, it might help to catch critical bugs in the software faster. But with some devices, it really raises a host of new issues. Some pacemakers out there are configurable wirelessly once they are in the patient's body. This is actually a very critical feature. But do you want to risk everyone being able to reverse-engineer the protocol used for adjusting the settings for such a device? A wrongly configured pacemaker can be deadly. Right now these things are fairly secure because they are rather rare and not interesting enough as targets for hacking.

      So what you're saying is that you're worried about a heart-hack...har harr...

    2. Re:Double-edged sword by Hatta · · Score: 5, Insightful

      But do you want to risk everyone being able to reverse-engineer the protocol used for adjusting the settings for such a device?

      Yes. Security through obscurity is essentially no security at all. The only thing that should be secret is the private encryption key that is uniquely associated with the remote control, which should be under strict physical security at all times.

      What you say? There's no encryption implemented in these devices? That's a big problem whether the code is open or not.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    3. Re:Double-edged sword by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      Security through obscurity by itself is to be avoided. Obscurity does add security to an otherwise secure system. Ask a secure facility sometime if you can have a copy of their guard patrol schedule.

      Giving up the extra security requires something in return. It's far from clear that the extra bug-finding ability (if there actually is any) that is associated with open code is enough to be worth it.

    4. Re:Double-edged sword by steelfood · · Score: 1

      You know, that's just security by obscurity, and you know what they say about that...

      --
      "If a nation expects to be ignorant and free in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be."
    5. Re:Double-edged sword by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What you say?

      You have no chance to survive make your time.

      HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA...

    6. Re:Double-edged sword by abigsmurf · · Score: 1

      Is it not ironic to criticize security through obscurity only then to recommend that the device be secured in a method that is relying 100% on obscurity to function?

      Security through obscurity being no security at all is a myth that simply doesn't hold true.

      If that was so, why bother with classifying top secret documents? Why keep details on how Nuclear codes get entered hush hush? Why not publicise exactly what the secret service will do before every public appearance by the president?

      Obscurity shouldn't be the only security measure (if you know the Secret Service's routes, you still have to deal with their guns and training), but it is a valid method. Just as binaries can be decompiled or run through attack tools to look for weaknesses, so can encryption be brute forced or passwords social engineered.

      There seems to a double standard that code is somehow special from physical actions/objects.

      Why is knowing the code for a fly by wire system any more important than knowing the schematics for the physical control systems? Am I more at risk not knowing how a CPU controls the amount of fuel going to a jet engine than I am not knowing the make up of the pumps and delivery system?

      I wouldn't expect Rolls Royce to make their engine blueprints public, why should we expect it of code?

    7. Re:Double-edged sword by mpe · · Score: 1

      Security through obscurity is essentially no security at all.
      BR>When you have large numbers of devices you don't even have obscurity.

      The only thing that should be secret is the private encryption key that is uniquely associated with the remote control, which should be under strict physical security at all times.

      For an implanted device you don't even require the "remote" to be that remote. Especially if you have a device powered by batteries which cannot be recharged in place.

      What you say? There's no encryption implemented in these devices? That's a big problem whether the code is open or not.

      When it comes to cryptography proprietary software is a problem. Even if those writing it don't try to invent their own (typically worthless) algorithm it's very hard to verify if their implimentation is correct. It can be hard enough even with OSS.

  18. How about software escrow? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    With rigorous testing and regulation, I don't worry too much about a device while the company that made it is still thriving, but what if the they go out of business?

    I propose that the FDA require all design data for "complex" devices, including the software" be placed into some form of escrow so it can be released if the company goes under.

    1. Re:How about software escrow? by cdrguru · · Score: 1

      The "right" way to do this is to make sure that the software escrow release is conditioned upon filing for bankruptcy or other protection from creditors or non-payment of the escrow fee.

      Effectively what this does is destroy any possibility of using the code as an asset in selling the company and ensures that any type of financial problem becomes terminal. This is pretty much equivalent to using cynaide as a cold remedy - see, no more cold or cold symptoms.

  19. The code is going to do you a whole lot of good .. by Ihlosi · · Score: 3, Interesting
    ... if you don't know the hardware it runs on and the external circuitry.

    Really. Finding security holes in software that runs on a plain vanilla PC is one thing, finding the cause of glitches in the nanosecond range on an embedded system is another thing entirely.

  20. Is there at least some kind of vault storage by kg261 · · Score: 1

    I would imagine this kind of software would be too complex and specialized to be effectively reviewed at large. And who would still be responsible if something was wrong? There would be discussions to no end on how to do things. However, some kind of vault (government or 3rd party) to store the source would be good just to prevent intentional or accidental loss of the information should long term statistics show something is not right. If the software is open source, then the whole design may have to be open.

    1. Re:Is there at least some kind of vault storage by Dribbitz · · Score: 1

      The FDA and other regulating bodies have meticulous requirements for the archival of all medical device records, software, design history files, test reports, etc. Compliance with these requirements is one of their favorite things to audit, and medical firms typically have an entire document control department on hand to look after these things. Implantables have archiving requirements which can exceed 100 years.

  21. If i get a pacemaker... by drolli · · Score: 1

    i will overclock it. Live fast. Die young.

  22. The GPLv3 makes this completely impossible by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    First of all, most device manufacturers would prefer to build based on a closed-source infrastructure so that they do not have to re-publish their source code. So it's unlikely that we will see much GPL software in medical devices. Look at how effectively threats of lawsuits over busybox completely removed Linux from consumer routers post-2005.

    Second of all, the GPLv3 prevents you from signing a binary to run on a specific piece of hardware. So no GPLv3 on medical devices.

    It is entirely within the rights of free software publishers to impose these restrictions. However, it is disingenuous for them to express surprise that their software is then avoided for certain applications.

    1. Re:The GPLv3 makes this completely impossible by selven · · Score: 1

      Second of all, the GPLv3 prevents you from signing a binary to run on a specific piece of hardware. So no GPLv3 on medical devices.

      The GPLv3 does not prevent you from designing a binary for a specific piece of hardware, it just prevents making it impossible for any other software to run on the hardware. If you're going to run untested code on a pacemaker, you deserve what you get. I see no problems here.

    2. Re:The GPLv3 makes this completely impossible by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      signing, not designing.

      Thanks for coming out.

    3. Re:The GPLv3 makes this completely impossible by PipsqueakOnAP133 · · Score: 1

      You know what? It's a pacemaker. It's got a specific purpose a QA department tested and then got certified. It's an embedded device that is a matter of life or death.

      I think I would prefer that it be impossible for other software to run on the hardware.

    4. Re:The GPLv3 makes this completely impossible by selven · · Score: 1

      Why? What situation is there that someone would actually try to install other software on the hardware? If someone's crazy enough to try that, then he's crazy enough to go poking around the device with a screwdriver.

    5. Re:The GPLv3 makes this completely impossible by PipsqueakOnAP133 · · Score: 1

      Because if it's not possible for me to screw around with, it's highly likely that it's not possible for other people to screw around with too.

      I get it, it's nice to have the freedom to do whatever you want your hardware.

      That said, if the entire thing was locked down so tight that I can't do anything with it, then I at least have the piece of mind that it's highly unlikely anybody else can tamper with mine either.

  23. After Therac-25, there is no excuse by ChipMonk · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The Therac-20 radiation therapy device worked reasonably well. Despite the software flaws, the hardware safeties in place prevented any deadly accidents. Problem is, because of the hardware safeties, nobody knew just how bad the software was. It had never been formally verified.

    Then some numbskull decided, "Hey, let's let the software handle the safety interlocking, and we can cut down on hardware manufacturing costs!" The result was the Therac-25, which maimed and killed people.

    After the machine was recalled, someone finally sat down and did a real analysis of the code, and found a whole raft of problems and bad assumptions. Nancy Leveson wrote the definitive report (PDF) on the failures in the R&D processes that made the Therac-25 so deadly.

    Yet, armed with this warning (among many others), both manufacturers and purchasers keep human lives as transactions on a double-entry ledger. It simply comes down to, how many deaths per thousand uses are "acceptable"? Manufacturers and medical facilities already have so many costs. Is it worth it to add on the cost of formal code analysis?

    But nobody will ask the Therac-25 victims and their families.

    I decided early on in my I.T. career, that I didn't want the stress of people's lives depending on my correct code. I hadn't had any training in formal verification. In hindsight, I see my worries would have come from incompetent management, more than from myself.

    1. Re:After Therac-25, there is no excuse by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      So what? Engineering hardware is just the same. The Pinto is the classic example.

    2. Re:After Therac-25, there is no excuse by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But nobody will ask the Therac-25 victims and their families.

      You've got a good point there.

      On the other hand, while this makes for a wonderful tragic story, the same thing's happening all the time, everywhere, and nobody gives a damn.

      Take cars, for example. Seatbelts and airbags are standard nowadays, but nevertheless, high-end models will come with safety features that lower-end models do not have, regularly not even as an option.

      This is done in the name of earnings, of course. And there's no doubt that it'll lead to deaths that could've been prevented.

      The only differences to the Therac-25 case seem to be that a) it's a deliberate decision rather than human failure (failure to produce correct code, that is), and b) it's happening on a larger scale: there'll be more than 3 deaths as a result of this.

      Both these differences would actually suggest that the problem is worse for cars. Yet nobody really cares about this in cars, me included. It logically follows that the Therac-25 case, while bad, is even less important.

      Yeah, the families of the victims will care. And that's the way it should be. But for society, the whole thing is really not nearly as important as our emotional programming makes it appear.

  24. Re:The code is going to do you a whole lot of good by gknoy · · Score: 1

    No, but it makes it easier for an auditing body to do so, or for competitors to point out (and prove) that their device is safer.

  25. RoboCop Ref by MrTripps · · Score: 1

    Apparently the Family Heart Center will now let you overclock the Jarvik and Yamaha models, but it voids the warranty.

    --
    "I'm not a quack, I'm a mad scientist! There's a difference." - Dr. Cockroach
  26. Licensed Professional Software Engineers? by davidwr · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Some mechanical devices and most bridges and buildings require licensed engineers or architects to put their stamp of approval on the designs. They do not require publication of the engineering or architectural drawings though.

    I for one would welcome professional licensing for certain "it can kill you if it goes wrong" software, particularly in isolated devices whose software can't be tampered with undetectably.

    If a licensed Professional Software Engineer puts his seal on a pacemaker or airplane, and the software kills someone, he's just as responsible as the civil engineer would be if a faulty bridge design kills someone. In both cases, the licensed professional's responsibility would come back to "was the engineer acting in accordance with professional standards at the time" and "was the device built and maintained in accordance with the design."

    --
    Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
  27. UP THE IRONS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Had to do it, saw them live the other day.

  28. Re:The code is going to do you a whole lot of good by Ihlosi · · Score: 1
    No, but it makes it easier for an auditing body to do so,

    Official auditing bodies could have the source code any time they ask for. They don't.

    , or for competitors to point out (and prove) that their device is safer.

    ... which still doesn't help you a lot if you don't know _their_ hardware. Your software might malfunction in one out of 2^21 cases due to some obscure bug, but their hardware could go up in flames the second you look at it the wrong way.

  29. Re:The code is going to do you a whole lot of good by Dribbitz · · Score: 2, Insightful

    ^THIS

    Implantable pacing devices, cardioverters, and pumps (life-sustaining devices) depend on complex custom hardware designs as their platform, and that hardware is *highly* interactive with the software. Many of these devices can only achieve their miraculous longevities on a primary cell by deferring functions to hardware. If you don't have access to the information re: the hardware, the code itself might as well be inscriptions in Atlantean glyphs. You'd have to bust trade-secret protection to get a public viewing of everything needed to review the code, because you'd have to see, *everything*.

  30. Re:Crowd sourcing your Quality Assurance departmen by ducomputergeek · · Score: 1

    From what I've seen, most FOSS projects seem to skip the QA step unless it's a dual licensed product with a company behind it.

    --
    "The problem with socialism is eventually you run out of other people's money" - Thatcher.
  31. A story from the industry? by Mint+Sharpie · · Score: 1

    A friend of mine who does programming for heart-lung machines once told me about something like this. One of the radiation machines used to treat cancer patients had a multi-core processor, but its programming didn't always take this into account. So every so often, the machine would have a race condition, and administer radiation several thousand times more powerful than it was supposed to. The poor patient would go in for a routine procedure and end up in worse shape than he/she was in already. I'm not sure if this is one of those apocryphal things that floats around or if it actually happened, but it seems like it could be possible if all the software isn't carefully checked first.

    1. Re:A story from the industry? by DaveV1.0 · · Score: 0, Redundant

      As there is no supporting evidence or story and nothing that can be verified, it is, by definition, apocryphal.

      --
      There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
  32. Hi, Vince here! by uremog · · Score: 1

    But if it's made by German Engineers, you know they make good stuff!

  33. Re:The code is going to do you a whole lot of good by duredhil · · Score: 1

    This is a faulty argument. The layman can no more review code destined for a GPC than they can an embedded device. To suggest that there is no opportunity for peer review of other industry members and subject matter experts within the particular development community, but outside of the specific organization responsible for a given project is as ludicrous as to suggest that every single adult in the world is capable of reviewing the design for an automobile to ensure it meets safety standards. My grandmother has never carried out a security audit on Firefox, but yet its track record remains far superior to that of Internet Explorer.

  34. SNMP by wowbagger · · Score: 2, Funny

    "Well, do you want your pacemaker to have intuitive manageability through Group Policies, or not?"

    No, just a good SNMP MIB and traps.

    I was joking with an ex-sys-admin friend of mine who just underwent open heart valve replacement, and commenting on the idea that the wireless ECG gear needed SNMP to alert when it detected a loose lead. She laughed - not good when you were doing a good impression of an Aztec sacrifice just a couple of days previously.

  35. Re:Crowd sourcing your Quality Assurance departmen by stagg · · Score: 1

    Although that's a legitimate concern, and relates to my suspicion that Open Source is a bit of a red herring here, I don't think it's always true. I work for an institution that has both outsourced and done in house QA on open source projects before implementing them. Some of the larger Open Source projects have had extremely extensive QA work done and have great community support for it. And of course, some do not.

  36. How the Flash was actually made... by ctchristmas · · Score: 1

    Dude check it out! The developers released the source code to my heart monitor! I am going to mod it so that it makes my heart beat 10 times faster. It's going to be awesome.

  37. Re:The code is going to do you a whole lot of good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    A panel of industry professionals could certainly do a credible job reviewing this stuff. A problem would lie in the affiliations of these experts; they had to get "professional" somehow. The big med companies have a lot of work invested in their devices and guard their secrets jealously. Even with good NDA protection or other guarantees I doubt there would be trust.

    Given the ability to create such a panel, a sort of "consumer reports" for the implants industry, I think regulatory agencies would welcome this but the industry would have to be forced into it.

  38. I don't like the idea of tossing out the pacemaker by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I don't like the idea of tossing out the pacemaker and getting a new one.

    If the unit fails, it's hardly likely to do so when I'm near a pacemaker replacement shop, is it.

  39. No kidding by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 1

    And if OSS is so immune to bugs, how come Firefox has so many problems? How come they patch tons of security updates with each release? This isn't just an OSS project, it is a popular, well funded one. And it has bugs left and right.

    So, if OSS is so good, what's going on?

    Or maybe, just maybe, is the real trick the quality of the review and the methods for writing code, which can be done closed or open?

    1. Re:No kidding by Thinboy00 · · Score: 1

      And if OSS is so immune to bugs, how come Firefox has so many problems? How come they patch tons of security updates with each release?

      Because the don't delay all the fixes until the next Patch Tuesday, instead releasing fixes when they exist.

      --
      $ make available
    2. Re:No kidding by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 1

      Well two things:

      1) MS fixes way less on a patch day than FF does with most minor releases.

      2) Why are there bugs at all? This whole thing is about medical devices and how bugs can kill. So if OSS = no bugs why are there bugs?

      That's the point we are trying to get across here. OSS does NOT eliminate bugs in code.

    3. Re:No kidding by badkarmadayaccount · · Score: 1

      If closed source is so good, how come IE suck donkey cock?

      --
      I know tobacco is bad for you, so I smoke weed with crack.
  40. You can FOSS it if you like but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'd rather keep writing my software for embedded avionics to the RTCA DO-178B standard http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DO-178B

    While I think public review may provide some defect discovery, the complex nature of embedded software in purpose built hardware is beyond the skills of the casual observer. Besides, DO-178B provides a process and set of rules for developing safety critical software. There are documentation and testing rules that go well beyond anything that consumer grade software developers even contemplate. It has been this way for decades specifically because the FAA determined a long time ago that bad software on airplanes can kill people. So they have been making avionics companies develop to a higher standard for a very long time.

    I really doubt that making the source code public would add any real safety.

  41. Only in the minds of OSS heads by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 1

    It is pure fantasy that there are tons of people with tons of time on their hands who will work diligently to solve the boring and difficult problems (which bugs are) in software. In reality, many OSS projects get almost no help at all from anyone but the core developers.

    My favourite example, since I use it all the time and it annoys me, is Firefox. This is a major OSS project. It has financial backing, and large status. None the less it is riddled with bugs. Many are annoyances (like all the plugin trouble recently) others are security issues (look at the number of critical fixes per release). It is an ideal case for open source, in that there's people who can work on it full time, the source is open to all, and it has the popularity that people know about it, and yet it is problematic.

    Part of the problem is just what I said, that finding bugs is boring. It is tedious work to try and peg where a bug is, especially with elusive ones that aren't something like a crash where you can look at the dump file. It is even harder when you don't know if there is a bug at all, when you are just straight out auditing code, hoping you see something that someone else missed. It is hard, boring work and thus many of the "freelance OSS" types don't do it. For that matter, those that do may be no good at it. They look over the code and say "Yup, is fine," just assuming they are so brilliant they'd see any bugs in it.

    The "Many eyes equals no bugs" hypothesis just doesn't hold up in real life.

    1. Re:Only in the minds of OSS heads by RAMMS+EIN · · Score: 1

      ``My favourite example, since I use it all the time and it annoys me, is Firefox. This is a major OSS project. It has financial backing, and large status. None the less it is riddled with bugs.''

      Yes. It's also a hugely complex project. I might have worked on it if it weren't for the fact that, years ago, I looked at it and decided that, with the direction they were going in, it would never end up being the lean, fast, robust software that I like to use. It's also at the cutting edge of development. Even if, recently, Chrome has been stealing the show, Firefox has been one of the most advanced web browsers in the world since before 1.0.0. That, apparently, is more important to the developers and the users than simplicity and robustness. It's not that finding and fixing bugs is boring (I actually like doing that), it's just that getting Firefox bug-free is not a target for the developers. New bugs are introduced while existing ones are fixed.

      ``The "Many eyes equals no bugs" hypothesis just doesn't hold up in real life.''

      It doesn't, but I don't think that is the hypothesis, either. Fewer bugs, perhaps, but "no bugs" is wishful thinking.

      --
      Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
  42. Do you really want to trust... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...that OSS update you need NOW for your ailing grandma's pacemaker to some basement dwelling Linux freak who will get to it "when I'm done compiling the latest kernel"?

  43. Re:The code is going to do you a whole lot of good by DaveV1.0 · · Score: 1

    As there is no professional certification for so-called software engineers nor for programmers, such "other industry members and subject matter experts" are neither. Who is to say who is an expert and what is to stop Joe Wannabe from claiming to be an expert programmer because he took C and Assembler 10 years ago in community college?

    --
    There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
  44. An instance of a larger problem... by Genda · · Score: 1

    This is simply one more instance of a larger problem. I once heard a brilliant observation; "If uncertain, you can always discover the game you're actually playing (vs. the one you think you're play) by whichever game you happen to be winning." Our society is predicated on a game called "PROFIT". Period, end of discussion. There are a lot of other games... satisfaction, fulfillment, sustainability, quality of life, or even personal freedom. All of these other games we say we're playing. All these other games fall short and are being lost, because the game we're actually playing is the game called "PROFIT". You really want to get, the human enterprise of this culture measures only one thing. If for example you had a company that saved the world, and lost the "PROFIT" game, it would be out of business tomorrow by 9:00 AM.

    Said another way... We measure Gross National Product. Disasters are great for the GNP, it skyrockets when cities are destroyed, families broken, houses burn down and children are killed in car crashes. If you think I'm mistaken, look at what Katrina's impact on New Orleans did for the economy, house value shot up like a rocket. This is the game we are winning. If instead, we were to get interested in a different game, for instance the Gross Domestic Satisfaction, or perhaps the Gross National Quality of Life, then perhaps dumping toxic waste into other people's drinking water would instantly become a problem, instead of a solution. When Halliburton fracs shale to get at natural gas, and oh by the way, just happens to poison an entire town by releasing toxic horrors into their ground water, then proceeds to cover it up, hide the facts, tie the town up in litigation, and it can do this in the first place because it got laws passed that exempted it from the Clean Air Act, Clean Water Act, and virtually any other national law preventing environmental destruction and abuse to human safety, you can be very certain its doing great business. In fact, its making making a mountain of profit. Its happy, because its winning the game its playing.

    Mr. Cheney is truly an honest man, he wins the games he plays, and he's very good at it. It just happens that the game he's playing is: "Rape the planet in the name of PROFIT". When our current Vice President is a hit man for the RIAA, or the entire Republican party can barely restrain itself from collectively smooching the behind of British Petroleum, or when we put judges into the Supreme Court, who's only reason for being, is to rubber stamp laws designed to give the Profit Makers what they want, no matter how obscene, or what the cost to the future, or how egregious the assault to the dignity and humanity of the other 6.8 billion people on the planet might be, it must be clear to everyone. We are gleefully winning the "PROFIT" game. You could get mad, or self righteous, or even subversive, but until we as a society demand that we begin to play other games instead, it would be silly to expect a different outcome. You simply can't hit a home run if you're shooting hoops (unless you're playing Base-ket Ball)

  45. On Funding Digital Public Works by Paul+Fernhout · · Score: 1

    On rethinking public funding: http://www.pdfernhout.net/on-funding-digital-public-works.html
    "An outdated scarcity perspective in the non-profit community is still manifesting itself, however. There remains a continued emphasis on charitable projects which include plans for restricting access to the resulting publicly funded digital works now, in the hopes of creating revenue streams later. The funded organization usually proposes continuing to improve the work itself under its solitary control using money derived from selling licenses to the work. Contrast this with, for example, the post-scarcity development of the GNU/Linux operating system, made by thousands of volunteers contributing improvements to an initial base contributed by Linus Torvalds and the Free Software Foundation (FSF) GNU project.
        The old scarcity criterion towards selecting what makes a viable project (based on a recurring royalty stream for static content) is completely at odds with the new post-scarcity model (based more on streams of attention, status, service, and customization). The new collaborative development process made possible by the internet (resulting in a work made by sharing licenses to copyrights made by a distributed network of authors funded indirectly by other means) is fundamentally different than the old process (resulting in a work made by centralized copyright ownership with a development process funded by selling licenses to the result)."

    --
    A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
  46. Re:Crowd sourcing your Quality Assurance departmen by DerekLyons · · Score: 1

    I'm a big fan of FOSS, but I've got my QA methodology hat on right now. Opening up the source code isn't providing better Quality Assurance coverage, it's just getting more eyes on the code, and at best a bunch of User Acceptance Testing.

    But really - will it improve things? You get a bunch of eyes on the code that spot dumbshit mistakes like an undefined variable... But how many eyes will understand the code, and the specialized hardware it runs on, and the medical factors that go into determining how the software and hardware must work in the first place.
     
    This isn't yet another web browser or word processor running on a vanilla PC. This is a highly specialized problem domain running in an unusual environment on nonstandard hardware.

  47. Again, capitalism works the other way by holophrastic · · Score: 1

    Once again, people forget the benefits that capitalism has. Requiring medical devices to have open source software will completely ruin the benefits of capitalism, and instead advance the negatives of capitalism.

    The world of capitalism revolves around reputation. If a medical device has a software problem, and it kills 3 people, 3 million people will know about it -- the media works that way with life-and-death products really really well. The media also eliminates propeganda in a capitalist society.

    Now, if 3 million people know that ACME medical just killed 3 people, the question is simply: who's fault is it?

    It can be ACME's fault, it can be the software's fault, it can be the government's fault, it can be the users' fault.

    If the software is proprietary, it's ACME's fault, plain and simple. No one else is to blame, we blame ACME. ACME's stock plummets. ACME either goes out of business, or is super-safe for decades to regain any semblance of trust. Either is good. That's what we want -- accountability, and and improved industry either by elimination or by improvement.

    If the software's open, then the fault lies with whomever approved the software for public use. So you can trust your government safety regulation inspectors -- trust me, it's good to have them but they don't do anything. And no one pays them enough to be accountable for anything.

    Alternatively, you can fault the software -- that being the operating system or the platform, or the borrowed code, or the licenced code, or whomever. The problem is, you now have thirty companies contributing to the software, and the problem is usually with the interaction between them, not with any one of them. So there's no one to actually blame.

    It can be the user's fault. Sure. They used their cruise control in the rain, and it accellerates when hydroplaning -- they do that by the way. You're not supposed to use cruise control when the ground is even a little bit wet. But relying on users to not screw themselves really isn't going to be successful in saving their lives.

    So what you're left with is a big complex situation where everyone and no one is at fault. And so you're left with no one caring any more. So much so that an airline considers broken airplanes an act of god, and are no longer accountable for delays due to poor aircraft maintenance.

    Make companies responsible for their actions, so you can then hold them accountable for their actions. You'll find that just like people, they act to improve their own situation only when it matters.

    So tell me, who's at fault when your baby falls off of the changing table and hits his/her head on the edge of the table?
    The table manufacturer for leaving a sharp edge?
    The changing-table manufacturer for not putting a lip high enough to stop a rolling baby?
    The manufacturer's safety inspector?
    The government's safety inspector?
    The baby for rolling?
    The adult for not child-proofing the edge of the table?
    The adult for not increasing the lip of the changing-table?
    The adult for not strapping the baby to the changing table?
    The parent for entrusting their baby to an adult who clearly is too stupid to be anywhere near a baby?

    Let's hope you got it right. Let's hope you picked someone who did something actively negative, and not someone who didn't do something positive. Welcome to decision-making 101. Act.

  48. Medical software review is rigorous enough already by proggoddess · · Score: 1

    I'll dupe my reply to this dupe, but only because I have a clue of what I'm talking about.

    I work for a medical device manufacturer. We don't make a life-essential device, but all the laws apply to us as well as the manufacturers that make critical devices. The FDA already has the power to examine a manufacturer's source code. When they come in to perform an inspection, the inspectors have the same powers as federal marshals. They can look at anything - just time and resources are the limiting factors. When a device is submitted for FDA clearance, there is a lot of software documentation that has to be included in the application. Our software section is one of the thicker sections in an application. Depending on the level of concern of the device, a manufacturer has to submit all test results, software detailed design, etc. The stuff we have to do during development here is incredible and we're a minor level of concern.

    Regulation requires that all designs be periodically, formally reviewed. It requires that the review includes an independent reviewer and that reviewers are just as (if not more) technically competent than the designer. The FDA may not have the resources to review every line of code, but they do have the resources to look at the documentation from the reviews and to look at the documentation listing the qualifications of the reviewers.

    Manufacturers are required to conduct risk assessments for their devices and identify any/all reasonably foreseeable hazards and to mitigate those hazards until they are as low as reasonably practicable or the clinical benefit to the patient outweighs the risk. The risk assessment must be conducted by clinical and technical experts. Each mitigation (or fix or change to a line of code) has to be re-evaluated for risk and possible repercussions to the rest of the device. Testing is also quite rigorous and safety and reliability are the top priorities. Our testing takes months. Changes that affect safety may have to be tested in expensive clinical trials on human subjects and the results resubmitted to the FDA for clearance.

    Perhaps by having the public look at source code there will be some bugs found. But I'm sure that the bug has already been considered as part of the manufacturer's risk assessment, and any fixes for that bug will not be fast in coming considering the heavyweight nature of the development process.

    --
    --The Programming goddess from Gorflaz
  49. CMM Level 5 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Some of my old friends work writing software for medical devices, like pace makers and defibrillators. They use a development method similar to that used by the GN&C code in the space shuttle flight software. We all worked together writing shuttle software. It is certified CMM-5. At this point in time, there is no safer way to produce software, IMHO. Real-time software is very different from the crap placed into PCs. Man-rated software gets added hardware redundancy, in addition to the extremely cautious development techniques. For real-time software, there are considerations beyond what 99% of the software writers out there understand. It is a big deal and the developers understand what life and death mean. At least 50 people see, review, test, and otherwise validate this software before it ends up inside grandma.

    The entire team knows about grandma and takes every precaution possible to ensure the software works as designed. It is hard to explain unless you've worked in that type of environment. Safety trumps every other concern. EVERY OTHER CONCERN. For the team I was in, we didn't worry about monetary loss or harm to the company. We didn't care about that. We worried about the people who would die if any tiny mistake got into the software. We worried about hardware errors that could tell the software to do something wrong - killing people. We worried a bunch, then we wrote the software defensively. Dangerous decision trees were affirmed, not defaulted. All variables were initialized to known values - never left dangling with unknown, random data (like FOSS software often does). We weren't allowed to use dynamic memory allocations and using pointers required an exception approval. They were deemed dangerous, so the use was limited.

    Software used in other medical devices ... well, I have no idea about it. I've heard claims that x-ray machine software was using double the recommended dose due to a software error, but that was 10 yrs ago.

    I don't worry about the software in pace makers at all. I worry about the idiot mech tech running the x-ray machine or the scientist that hates computers using some custom code written in a 4GL that wasn't designed to be used in the way they are using it now. And I worry about hospital computers having internet access, viruses, spyware and people inside emergency rooms watching the world cup on PCs that shouldn't be on a network at all.

  50. If FOSS is meant to indicate code quality... by petrus4 · · Score: 1

    ...then please explain this to me.

    Why does PulseAudio exist?

  51. No, the cat does not, in fact, "got my tongue." by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 1

    What is the rate of death and injury due to software bugs?

    Before proposing a solution, first show there is a problem. There could *definitely* be a problem if people figure out how to "hack" the source code of a pacemaker or other device which, keep in mind, have EM interfaces of one type or another.

    --
    (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
  52. no... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    it's more important than that.

  53. The many eyes are more interested in porn by judeancodersfront · · Score: 1

    as seen by the Unreal trojan that sat undetected for almost a year. http://www.webupd8.org/2010/06/linux-trojan-goes-unnoticed-for-year.html