Alternatives To Paypal's Virtual Credit Card Service?

An anonymous reader writes "Paypal has quietly killed the Paypal plugin and the related virtual-card service. The service generated on-the-fly, one-time-use credit card numbers. When I called in and inquired about the service, I was told that the service has been discontinued, but may be relaunching something similar depending on interest. They are treating inquiries as a sort of petition, taking down names and contact info. The forums seem to be a lost cause, as no Paypal reps have replied to the numerous posts regarding virtual cards being discontinued. Does anyone know of a good alternative source of one-time-use credit card numbers?"

Comments

Look for an option from your credit card company

[mysidia]

Citibank, Citicard virtual account numbers.

Bank of America ShopSafe

Discover card

[Anonymous Coward]

Discover Card still offers Secure Online Account Numbers using either a web or desktop app. http://www.discovercard.com/customer-service/security/create-soan.html

Re:Discover card

[Anonymous Coward]

DISCLAIMER: I work for Discover in IT and know the guys that implement and support this functionality.

The Discover system is pretty straight-forward. You just log into the site and request a temporary number. I personally use it on a lot of my online transactions...it's simple and easy to use. Why use your real number?

Re:Discover card

[0100010001010011]

Could you get the IT guys to fix the massive error when entering passwords?

My password is at the limit for the discover card website, which I think was 10 or 12 letters, so my discover password is:
abcdefghijkl.

Now if I go to the virtual credit card login, which is the flash based entry as long as I start off with abcdefghijkl, it doesn't matter what I enter after that:
abcdefghijkl938498719823 and it still lets me in.

Re:Discover card

[Anonymous Coward]

discover card sucks balls. Don't use them. They stole my $500 cash back bonus. Thieves.

Re:Look for an option from your credit card compan

[dicobalt]

I can vouch for the Citibank virtual numbers, I have been using it for years. It even works with recurring charges for up to 1 year. You specify the max amount to be drawn over the year. Amazon.com sometimes chokes up when using it but I have never had problems anywhere else.

Re:Look for an option from your credit card compan

[mysidia]

Interesting... recurring charges longer than a year break?

I never had a problem opening up an 'active virtual account number', and extending the expiration date to 12 more months....

Try CitiVAN

[bauzeau]

Citibank offers a "Virtual Account Number" service for their credit cards (Mastercard). It works fairly well. You can do one-shot purchases, or recurring purchases with the same merchant only, or even cap the total you're willing to spend via a virtual number over a number of months.

They have a web interface, but you can also download a Java applet that can generate numbers and fill in purchase forms for you.

Re:Look for an option from your credit card compan

[MoeDumb]

And I can vouch for Bank of America's ShopSafe. Have used it for years without a hiccup. Discover Card's equivalent seems a bit harder to navigate for some reason.

A regular bank account?

[Anonymous Coward]

I dont know about you but my bank account can create VCC's without me even having a credit card. All I need is the debit card and enough cash to actually create the VCC, and of course internet banking enabled. The VCC gets destroyed in a couple of days like normal and the balance amount goes back into your account. Considering that youngsters are advised against taking credit cards, and I haven't this is almost my only option for online shopping.

Re:A regular bank account?

[mysidia]

The advise to youngsters against taking credit cards is flawwed. Because of how the current financial industry and credit reporting works.

If you never get a credit card or loan of any type, you will not have a credit history. This will be very bad later, when you need to apply for credit or a loan, you will be denied, or require a cosigner, and pay a much higher interest rate..

Unless the youngster is going to be independently wealthy, and never need to borrow money for the rest of their lives (Going to buy your house outright with cash, going to buy all your cars outright with cash, no mortgages, no loans), the sooner you start a credit history, and the higher quality the history you establish, the better (more financially beneficial) terms you will be able to negotiate in the future, when you need a loan.

I would suggest any youngster get at least one credit card, but be very careful and judicious in the management of it.

Even if that means you get a debit card, and leave the credit card locked away in a safe, and only use it once a month.

For the most part, it's beneficial for just about anyone to have at least one CC.

Re:A regular bank account?

[tapanitarvainen]

The advise to youngsters against taking credit cards is flawwed. Because of how the current financial industry and credit reporting works.

If you never get a credit card or loan of any type, you will not have a credit history. This will be very bad later, when you need to apply for credit or a loan, you will be denied, or require a cosigner, and pay a much higher interest rate..

As far as I know that is pretty much a US-only phenomenon. At least in most of Europe, the notion of "positive credit history" is all but unknown, when applying for a loan it doesn't matter if you've ever had a credit card unless you've failed to pay up. In many European countries many people don't have credit cards at all.

Re:A regular bank account?

[networkBoy]

A cell phone contract will establish history in the US as well.
Any contractual obligation over time whether pre or post paid (I.e. phone Vs. Car loan) will show up on your credit history. So does renting an apartment, paying facilities (gas, electric, cable, phone, etc.)

Re:A regular bank account?

[phantomfive]

Credit cards are so much better than debit cards for online purchases, or anything really. If someone steals money from your debit card, it is your money that is gone. If someone steals money from your credit card, it is someone else's money that is gone.

Re:A regular bank account?

[Kr3m3Puff]

As far as I know that is pretty much a US-only phenomenon. At least in most of Europe, the notion of "positive credit history" is all but unknown, when applying for a loan it doesn't matter if you've ever had a credit card unless you've failed to pay up. In many European countries many people don't have credit cards at all.

The UK has been starting to introduce a "credit rating" system (thanks to the same companies in the US flogging their wares over here). It isn't as rigorous or specific as the US one and simply rates the risk. It tends to be some financial activity is good (no matter what type) but late payments or defaulted debt is bad. A lot of it has to do with a verifiable history. When I first moved over here from the US, I had a really hard time because I didn't have a previous address. Once I moved about a year in, and had a previous address in the UK, everything got substantially easier. Youth (I think 25) get a high risk rating no matter what.

In the UK they are card happy (whether it be Debit or Credit) and has moved more and more to a cashless and chequeless society, but I had to remind my partner, who is a Brit, that on our recent holiday to Germany, we needed to carry cash with us and pay for things in cash, because lots and lots of places don't take credit cards and in fact, we found places that do take a card, only take one type of Debit card. Not fun if you aren't prepared.

Re:A regular bank account?

[Anonymous Coward]

No, it doesn't. A cell phone contract may require a credit check, but it will only be reported to the credit bureaus if you do not pay. If you get a cell phone and pay it on time, it'll never show up after the initial credit check, which itself will disappear after two years. Student loans, credit cards, store cards, mortgages, etc, all show up. Get a credit card early, use it once every 1-3 months, pay it off when you do use it, and you'll be building a steady history.

Another tip: if you get an American Express card, all future cards you get with them will be backdated to your original account start date. This can be super helpful if you need to boost your average credit age.

Re:A regular bank account?

[Redlazer]

It's true for any 'debt-based' (probably not the best term) economy, which is just about everyone.

Same can be said for Canada: If you ever need to borrow money, and don't have a credit history, you're going to be in rough shape.

It occurred when my family moved back to Canada, after living in the US. My mother couldn't get a credit card because she had no Canadian credit history, even though her US credit was quite good.

Re:A regular bank account?

[angel'o'sphere]

A cell phone contract will establish history in the US as well.
Any contractual obligation over time whether pre or post paid (I.e. phone Vs. Car loan) will show up on your credit history. So does renting an apartment, paying facilities (gas, electric, cable, phone, etc.)

Interesting and unbelievable ... in most western countries keeping such records would be illegal.

Regards angeel'o'sphere

Re:A regular bank account?

[icebraining]

That's why debit cards here in Portugal all have a PIN, and almost all the shops have little readers with keypads.

Re:A regular bank account?

[TheEyes]

I actually don't recall any of that showing up on my credit history either, and I just had a look at my credit history because I got a home loan. My student loans, car loan, credit cards, and now home loan all showed up (basically as a bunch of check boxes showing if I paid on time or not), and that was it.

As far as I know, cell phone bills and the like don't show up at all. You can use phone bills and the like as proof of address for background checks, if you don't have two forms of photo ID, but that's completely different from credit history.

Re:A regular bank account?

[TheEyes]

More to the point, it's the credit card company's money that is gone, so they are a lot more proactive about hunting down fraud. Most banks don't give a flying crap if someone drains your account of $5,000, but if someone charges $100 at a gas station on another person's card the company is quick to nullify the charge. They usually don't even charge to stop payment, unlike the banks who've been getting really creative with fees lately.

Re:A regular bank account?

[Khyber]

none of my cell phone contracts have shown up on credit reports. I'm still totally blank.

Re:A regular bank account?

[bazorg]

As far as I know that is pretty much a US-only phenomenon. At least in most of Europe, the notion of "positive credit history" is all but unknown

I live in the UK and confirm what the other guy said. If your credit history shows a blank list, you will not get a normal mortgage.

Re:A regular bank account?

[PiSkyHi]

I was refused an AMEX card a fee years ago because 7 years prior to that I lost a mobile phone on a contract. At the time I had a very small income and the loss of the phone forced the network to demand payment of the entire remaining 14 months contract period in 1 month. I could not pay. What's funny is this didn't stop me gaining credit with other banks. At the time of rejection I had around 27,000 AUD in credit from different banks and an excellent payment histroy with no debt.

Actually, I think that's why they rejected me, because I was using the initial no interest for 6 months balance transfer option to borrow nearly the full amount of a new credit card and put into a savings account for that time. It gave me a good credit history and made me money at the same time. I was also offered limit increases.

AMEX probably would have ignored the 7 year old default if it wasn't for my lack of debt. They only want interest payers. Not system abusers

Re:A regular bank account?

[Anonymous Coward]

Just because they perform a credit check doesn't mean it shows up on your credit history. All of the services that you mention will only show up on your credit history if you fail to pay for them, and that certainly isn't a good thing.

Re:A regular bank account?

[Mr. Freeman]

"If someone steals money from your debit card, it is your money that is gone. If someone steals money from your credit card, it is someone else's money that is gone."

I'm not convinced that you understand how credit cards work, or for that matter, how money works.

Doesn't matter if it's your bank or your credit card company, it's YOUR money that's gone. With a debit card the money comes out of your bank, with a credit card the money initially comes from the credit company, who sends you a bill, and you send them money from your bank. In either case you can file paperwork claiming fraud, and in both cases a valid claim of fraud will result in your money being returned. (specific policies vary by company and bank)

Given the choice, I'd rather deal with a bank than a credit card company. I can walk into my bank and actually talk to someone, can you do that with ANY credit card company? My bank actually wants me to remain a customer, not because I have so much money that it's in their interest to keep me there, but because they actually care about customer service. Any credit card company won't give a flying fuck about you unless you hold one of their super exclusive cards (i.e. Amex Centurion, aka Amex black) that actually cost you roughly two grand per year to have. That's two thousand dollars per year just to hold the card. You're not even eligible for it unless you spend HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of dollars on an Amex gold card. So, yeah, they'll take care of you if you're in the top 0.5% of customers.

Re:A regular bank account?

[Anonymous Coward]

Completely untrue. On what basis are you making this statement?

Re:A regular bank account?

[Anonymous Coward]

"Starting to introduce"? Credit rating and credit rating agencies for individuals have been with us in the UK for at least the last 20 years when I first encountered them, probably much longer.

Re:A regular bank account?

[Cimexus]

Indeed. The US system seems bizarre to the rest of the world.

In the rest of the world, countries either don't even have a credit reporting system, or if they do, it works from the assumption that you start with GOOD credit history, and the only thing that hurts it are previous debts you have defaulted on. I.e. someone that has never had any credit cards or other debt will be able to get a loan just as easily as someone who has had previous debt, but has paid it off on time etc. The idea of 'building' a credit history is un-necessary - just don't default on debts and you will be fine.

In my country all they do is look at your income, assets, expenses and any records of previous defaults, and make a judgement on that. There is no 'credit score' as such. The US system seems really weird (and unfair!) to me - since I am a person that has never really had any debt and almost never uses credit cards.

Re:A regular bank account?

[JWSmythe]

    That's interesting. Most of mine did. I've used various carriers over the years.

    I had a case of identity theft years ago, and that's how I found out about detail on two of them. Someone went on a buying spree and purchased phones online from a few different carriers. Once I found out about the first ones, I called all the major cell carriers to find out if "I" had an account. The ones who said "yes", I asked to be immediately transferred to their fraud department. One of them had allowed the purchase, but refused to fulfill it, and marked it as fraud. I told them to keep it that way, since I wasn't a customer. Another one said the attempt was made, but they flagged it as fraud before the transaction was completed.

    I didn't live anywhere near where the person doing the fraud was at. Since a couple of them gave me "my" information including the street address where the phones were to be shipped, I considered going there and beating the shit out of the guy who did it. Since they were over 1,000 miles away, I called their local police who were completely disinterested in it. "File it with your local police." My local police were again completely disinterested, since the suspect was so far away. {sigh} I finally got someone to at least write down my complaint and hand me a semi-formal piece of paper saying that I had filed a complaint.

Re:A regular bank account?

[Anonymous Coward]

Step one: Get a credit card.
Step two: Don't spend more than what you could pay.
Step three: Avoid going over 30% of your unsecured credit. So, $500 limit means don't spend over $150 on the card per month.

For me, it works like this...
Maybe I buy $10 worth of groceries per day on average. I use my debit card. So, maybe for 15 days of each month, I'll use my credit card instead, then just transfer the money from my checking to credit card to pay it off.

Anything wrong with this? Please let me know.

Re:A regular bank account?

[jareds]

I'm not convinced that you understand how credit cards work, or for that matter, how money works.

And I think you're being willfully obtuse.

Doesn't matter if it's your bank or your credit card company, it's YOUR money that's gone. With a debit card the money comes out of your bank, with a credit card the money initially comes from the credit company, who sends you a bill, and you send them money from your bank. In either case you can file paperwork claiming fraud, and in both cases a valid claim of fraud will result in your money being returned. (specific policies vary by company and bank)

When you receive a bill, there is no force of nature causing you to send payment. Here's how it works with a debit card:

1. Money is stolen via your card, coming immediately from your bank account.
2. You notice the discrepancy (perhaps because you want to withdraw money you expected to have but don't, in which case it sucks to be you).
3. You ask the bank to return or restore the money, claiming fraud.
4. (a) The bank returns the money, or (b) the bank denies the claim.

In case 4(a), you have no access to the money in the time between 3 and 4(a), which could be 10 business days (two weeks). In 4(b), it is up to you to pursue legal action against the bank.

Here's how it works with a credit card:

1. Money is stolen via your card, being paid from the card company's accounts.
2. You receive a bill including the fraudulent charge (note: the company is asking you for money, rather than vice versa).
3. You make a claim for fraud.
4. You send a payment only for the non-fraudulent amounts.
5. (a) The company accepts your claim, and that's the end of it, or (b) they deny your claim, so you keep getting bills and other collection action.

In 5(b), it's up to the company to pursue legal action against you, rather than vice versa. In all cases, the money remains in your control at least until the company wins in court. (Of course, you would lose the money with the debit card as well if you lost against the bank in court, but the money would have remained out of your control immediately.)

The point is clear: your money is gone with a debit card in that you lose actual control of it, and have to ask for it back. The card company's money is gone with a credit card because they have to ask you for it back (perhaps not entirely, if they haven't paid the merchant yet, but that's not your concern).

Re:A regular bank account?

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

I'm not convinced that you understand how credit cards work, or for that matter, how money works.

It doesn't take a black card to get good response to fraudulent charges on a credit card because federal banking laws very explicitly define what the banks must do and for once the rules are very favorable to consumers instead of the banks. Meanwhile the only rules governing fraudulent debits are arbitrary ones set up by individual banks and the debit networks. Violating a federal law is a huge deal, the banks don't play around with that -- but breaking their own internal policies, the consequences are practically nil, it puts you at the mercy of someone who might just be in a bad enough mood to take it out on you.

Furthermore the previous poster is exactly on the mark about it being the bank's money at risk for fraudulent charges and your money for a fraudulent debit. At best you can expect your bank to refund the lost money and any of their internal fees. But if that fraud caused any of your checks to bounce or your automated payments not to go through you are looking at fees from the payees - returned check and late payment fees - and you have no chance of getting your bank to reimburse those fees since they aren't internal and really are whatever the payee wants to set them at.

No, the only people who should ever use a debit card are the ones who just plain can't qualify for a credit card or are so bad with money that they can't control their spending (and they better be sure not to get so-called "over-draft protection" on those debit accounts because until recently it was impossible to get a debit card without over-draft protection since those over-draft fees are massive cash cows for all banks).

Re:A regular bank account?

[Anonymous Coward]

That's illegal though (at least over here, and probably in aus too), placing overdrafts in a savings account.

Re:A regular bank account?

[MoonBuggy]

Really? Why?

Re:A regular bank account?

[Anonymous Coward]

If you never get a credit card or loan of any type, you will not have a credit history. This will be very bad later, when you need to apply for credit or a loan, you will be denied, or require a cosigner, and pay a much higher interest rate..

So your life (in this society dependent on the credit... well... cancer) depends not on whom you you vote for, but on the unwritten rules of the banking establishment.

Re:A regular bank account?

[MightyYar]

I'm not convinced that you understand how credit cards work, or for that matter, how money works.

In the US, Federal law limits you to $50 in exposure to theft of a credit card. With debit cards you are at the mercy of your bank, so I'm glad you are comfortable with yours!

Re:A regular bank account?

[CrashandDie]

The UK being the big exception. I always refer to "mainland Europe" when I talk about the banking industry, considering that the UK (and I expect Ireland, but never checked) is roughly the same as the US when it comes to credit cards.

When I first arrived to the UK, it took me about 6 months before my bank (HSBC) trusted me with a credit card. I was making in excess of 30k GBP a year (first job), and never had any overdraft. I did have a whole lot of working expenses (consultant, so travelling around the world), hence I really had to juggle.

Then when my CC came, I was in heaven. I could sweat out a couple of grand on travel, hotels and other expenses if required, and not worry about paying extra. Having on average a small month to repay it meant I could do my expenses with relative ease of mind, and never pay interest.

I still have about 8 credit cards (even though I don't live in the UK anymore, they never shut down the accounts), and I've only had to pay interest twice. Once because in Australia the UK debit cards don't work in all ATMs (and neither do they work in most shops), and I had to take out some cash (which means automatic and immediate interests), and once because I bought an expensive bike, and I made the conscious decision to pay it off in 2 months.

Why do I have so many cards? Because in the UK, they're free. Everyone and their brother will give you a credit card if you have a good history (and mine is pretty good now). I have one for food, one for vehicle expenses, one for eating out, one for travel, two for company expenses, etc. This allows me to get the bills and just put them in folders easily. I don't have to go over one big bill, just a handful of small bills that are all very specific.

As with everything, if you're smart about it, credit cards can be extremely helpful. You just need to put a few sliding appointments in your agenda (28 days, if you're lucky your wife or girlfriend can remind you to pay the bills when she gets cranky) and pay on time. Also, don't spend more than you earn, and budget, budget, budget.

Don't buy something on impulse. Research it, spend 10 minutes on the internet to understand if it's a good buy, what is the next best item (even if it's more expensive, just to get a feeling of the price gap), etc. Most people can live a very healthy and luxurious life if they just think about money, rather than putting their head in the sand.

Added bonus? If shit hits the fan, I've got about 40 grand worth of credit card I can use. That, plus the savings I have.

Re:A regular bank account?

[bongk]

From my experience generally credit cards do have a few nuances that make them safer than debit for online purchases.
Both have zero liability for unauthorized purchases.
With some (all?) credit cards you get a satisfaction guarantee for authorized purchases. For example, if you buy a collectible model car online and receive a poor quality, crappy cheap plastic toy, and the company wont do a refund, a credit card likely would refund, while a debit card wouldn"t. Or in another example, if you buy plane tickets and the airline folds before your flight, the CC generally would refund and the debit card would not.

Re:A regular bank account?

[butlerm]

"That's why debit cards here in Portugal all have a PIN, and almost all the shops have little readers with keypads."

That is the case in the United States too. The difference (apparently) is that in the U.S. a debit card can also be processed like a credit card - no PIN required. I probably shouldn't, but I use my debit card to purchase things online all the time.

Re:A regular bank account?

[butlerm]

"In the US, Federal law limits you to $50 in exposure to theft of a credit card. With debit cards you are at the mercy of your bank, so I'm glad you are comfortable with yours"

Both Visa and Mastercard have a zero liability policy for unauthorized use of your card, provided you report a lost card within 24 hours. The only difference with a debit card is that you have to wait for your money to be returned to you, because it was taken directly from your account.

Re:A regular bank account?

[hedwards]

It's far worse than you think it is. While we now have the legal right to look at our credit report once a year, we don't have the legal right to look at our credit score without paying for it. And often times that's the only thing the lender looks at. Worse still is that a bad credit report can result in a person being unable to find work, as employers view such people as a risk for theft and fraud.

Re:A regular bank account?

[hedwards]

In that respect I have to tip my hat to Capital One. Capital One uses a very tough anti-fraud algorithm on their CCs, I have to call them a dozen or so times to get the block on my card lifted, which is a pain in the ass, but as I've told them each time I'd rather call them and verify things than have to deal with the much bigger headaches that could come should somebody steal my CC number and try to drain me dry.

My main complaint about the card though is that they don't offer me virtual numbers.

Re:A regular bank account?

[Idbar]

At least in the US, you're right. Moreover, they will charge you a large deposit upfront if you want to get an Internet, phone, or other service without a score/high score.

My country has a different approach as to credit. It's a database with "faults". If you fail to pay stuff, they can report you. And people querying the database will know how "good payer" you are. This sounds more appropriate for a country with a legal system following the "you're innocent until proven guilty".

Nevertheless, there's always a stupid company that gets you in the database just because a glitch or problem and then, when you try to get some loan, it's a hell of a problem to know who added you, why, and try to get yourself out of the problem.

Re:A regular bank account?

[pigwiggle]

It is trivial to "build credit, or get credit without a credit history. In fact, there are droves of folks concerned that it is too easy for young people to get and use credit.

Re:A regular bank account?

[pigwiggle]

The kinds of things that employers are concerned with are listed on your free credit report. And if they are legitimately listed, you wold know without seeing it. They are the sorts of things that would require them to garnish - legal judgments, and so forth. Perhaps bankruptcy and large CC balances as well. They aren't using your score. You could have a reasonable score and still carry the sorts of things that worry an employer.

Re:A regular bank account?

[Anonymous Coward]

Incorrect. The only time a cell phone contract shows up on your credit report is when you stop paying. Sucks doesn't it?
Same goes for renting an apartment, paying facilities.

none of this does anything to *help* your credit score.

Re:A regular bank account?

[Jarik C-Bol]

i think i get the gist of why thats illegal, but could you elaborate a bit?

Re:A regular bank account?

[Jarik C-Bol]

even more unsettling, is having several checks of your credit score in a short period (less than a month, more than 7ish days) can make it go down. (all checks inside of a particular period, which is around 7 days, all count together as one check against your score, after 7 days, they are counted individually, and each reduce your score by X amount)

Re:A regular bank account?

[MightyYar]

Both Visa and Mastercard have a zero liability policy for unauthorized use of your card, provided you report a lost card within 24 hours

This is true, but doesn't help you when someone uses only your NUMBER fraudulently and you don't notice until your statement comes... or worse, when checks start bouncing. How many $35 bounce fees is it worth getting before you start to think that maybe tying a card to your bank account wasn't such a fantastic idea? :)

Re:A regular bank account?

[mikefocke]

You can also be denied credit despite having a very large net worth if you don't have your name on the prior credit card accounts you have used or if the credit reports have the information wrong. My wife just got turned down asking for credit in an amount that is a rounding error compared to her net worth. But since the credit history doesn't show any of the assets she might have nor does it list her participation in the credit I might have had (she has paid the bills for the last 37+ years) her history/worthiness looks sparse/doubtful.

It amazed me how many facts the 3 credit reporting agencies got wrong or how they were listed differently on each of their reports.

I'd urge you to check yours...and your spouse's if you should have one. The results may shake your confidence in the system.

Re:A regular bank account?

[unitron]

How did they know that you had lost the phone?

Did they refuse to let you continue making monthly payments? Did you ask them how they intended to deliver 14 months of service instantaneously upon full advance payment?

Didn't they try to sell you a new phone and the contract extension that goes with it?

Re:A regular bank account?

[Anonymous Coward]

This is true, but doesn't help you when someone uses only your NUMBER fraudulently and you don't notice until your statement comes... or worse, when checks start bouncing. How many $35 bounce fees is it worth getting before you start to think that maybe tying a card to your bank account wasn't such a fantastic idea? :)

That's one of the reasons why Internet Banking is so useful. I can, almost in real time, check to see how much money I have, what checks have and haven't cleared, and if any funky charges show up.

Re:A regular bank account?

[Anonymous Coward]

You are liable to report the fraud to your credit card company for charges you didin't make and according to the FTC (http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/edu/pubs/consumer/credit/cre07.shtm)

"By law, once you report the loss or theft, you have no further responsibility for unauthorized charges. In any event, your maximum liability under federal law is $50 per card"

I use my Credit Card for all online transactions and recommend you do the same. The temporary card number is a great idea though because whatever card number you use stays at the vendor (i.e. Amazon, T.J. Max, etc.) and you are now exposed to hacks into their system.

Re:A regular bank account?

[PiSkyHi]

credit card debt is not an overdraft

Re:A regular bank account?

[Solandri]

Indeed. The US system seems bizarre to the rest of the world.

In the rest of the world, countries either don't even have a credit reporting system, or if they do, it works from the assumption that you start with GOOD credit history, and the only thing that hurts it are previous debts you have defaulted on. I.e. someone that has never had any credit cards or other debt will be able to get a loan just as easily as someone who has had previous debt, but has paid it off on time etc. The idea of 'building' a credit history is un-necessary - just don't default on debts and you will be fine.

This may be because the U.S. has a larger immigrant and migrant population than most other countries. I personally know someone who came to attend a university in the U.S., got a credit card, ran up tens of thousands of dollars in charges, then when he finished school he simply moved back to his home country without paying. Another person intended to move to the U.S., got a work visa and was in line for a green card, racked up over $100k in loan and credit card debt, decided he could never repay it, and simply moved back to his home country.

Anti-discrimination laws prohibit profiling based on race or nationality, and it's simple enough to lie about citizenship (a proper visa will get you a social security number). So there's no easy way to determine if someone is a risk to flee the country without repaying debt. Assuming everyone is such a risk until proven otherwise would be a logical response, so you get a system where everyone starts with bad credit and has to work towards good.

Re:A regular bank account?

[PiSkyHi]

I recall saying something rather tersely along the lines of "If I hadn't reported it stolen I could pay it off monthly as per usual"

They basically want the phone number back if you can't use it.

Re:A regular bank account?

[Anonymous Coward]

That is a complete load of B.S., largely promoted by credit card companies. Paying your bills on time is more than enough to get a good credit score. It's not about your past of buying on credit, it's about how dependable you are at paying your bills on time. Paying bills on common services is enough for that. Add to that things like student loans, or car loan payments and your score will be just fine. I've never owned a credit card and my score is just fine. In fact I've been told by my insurance agent that I'm getting a better rate because of a good score in combination with never have owning a credit card.

Re:A regular bank account?

[unitron]

So they were unable to move the number to a new piece of hardware, which has the virtue (from their point of view) of tying you into another multi-year contract?

Re:A regular bank account?

[PiSkyHi]

Yeah, this was some time ago a Motorola brick phone using CDMA with no removable SIM.

Re:A regular bank account?

[MightyYar]

True, but the same advantage applies to your credit card.

I'm old for around here, but I still won't get a "check card"... I just don't see the advantage vs. a credit card that you pay off every month or a debit card that requires a PIN.

Re:A regular bank account?

[Anonymous Coward]

True, but the same advantage applies to your credit card.

I'm old for around here, but I still won't get a "check card"... I just don't see the advantage vs. a credit card that you pay off every month or a debit card that requires a PIN.

That's the thing. A large percentage of people that have credit cards use them to buy more than they can afford to pay off at the end of the month (due in no small part to credit cards that keep raising spending limits far beyond what a lot of people can reasonably afford), ensuring that customers will pay financing fees for the rest of their lives. While on the other hand, it's really hard to go too far beyond your means with a card that's tied directly to your bank account. It's probably better to think of a debit card as a more versatile replacement for checks than a replacement for credit cards.

Also, most bank cards can be used as credit cards in almost all circumstances, requiring only your signature.

Re:A regular bank account?

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

A large percentage of people that have credit cards use them to buy more than they can afford to pay off at the end of the month (due in no small part to credit cards that keep raising spending limits far beyond what a lot of people can reasonably afford), ensuring that customers will pay financing fees for the rest of their lives.

Yep, stupid people shouldn't be given the ability to do stupid things. Unless you want to raise your hand and say you are a stupid person, that's really not applicable to this conversation.

While on the other hand, it's really hard to go too far beyond your means with a card that's tied directly to your bank account.

Not true. It took federal legislation to make it even marginally true because until recently it was essentially impossible to get a debit card without "overdraft protection" - it was just not an option the banks offered. The reason why was precisely because of that erroneous belief - that a debit card constrains the user to the money in their bank account. Overdrafts are essentially super-high interest loans that you get automatically by going over your balance with effective interest rates in the triple and quadruple digits.

So, if you are one of those stupid people who shouldn't be using a credit card, then you really shouldn't be using a debit card because (a) you are probably too stupid to have taken advantage of the recent changes in the law to turn off overdraft protection on your debit account and (b) interest rates on debit overdrafts tower over the interest rates on credit cards.

Re:A regular bank account?

[petermgreen]

In the UK they are card happy (whether it be Debit or Credit) and has moved more and more to a cashless and chequeless society,
That hasn't been my experiance in the UK. Round here (near Manchester) most smaller places (conviniance stores, non-chain fast food places) either won't take cards or will only take them for purchases over a certain value. I'm also pretty sure bus drivers don't take card payments.

Cheques mainly seem to be used for paying tradesmen and similar.

Re:A regular bank account?

[unixan]

If you never get a credit card or loan of any type, you will not have a credit history. This will be very bad later, when you need to apply for credit or a loan, you will be denied, or require a cosigner, and pay a much higher interest rate..

Bullshit. I bought a house without a credit history, without a cosigner, with lower interest rate than anyone else I know. I merely had to prove my identity, my steady income, my steady bill-paying history, and have a 20% down payment documented in a bank account.

While my loan broker had a smaller choice of banks to choose from, the ones available were falling over themselves to offer me a 15-year loan. (This is no fault of the banks, but a no-credit 30 year loan according to Fannie Mae's post-bubble rules would've been unfeasible. I didn't want a 30-year anyways.)

Re:A regular bank account?

[mysidia]

Bullshit. I bought a house without a credit history, without a cosigner, with lower interest rate than anyone else I know. I merely had to prove my identity, my steady income, my steady bill-paying history, and have a 20% down payment documented in a bank account.

In other words, you had to jump through hoops, and you managed to get a much better deal than other people you knew who were buying at that time. However, this is all anecdotal, and the 20% downpayment alone, makes you relatively unique. I believe the average downpayment is 10%

It's also possible the amount of money you were borrowing for the purchase lead the house to be better security for the debt than other peoples' you knew.

Try something more mundane like a new car purchase without credit history, where most lenders aren't willing to go the extra mile, and the asset securing the debt will depreciate in value rapidly.

Re:A regular bank account?

[demonlapin]

And to make yourself safe, be sure to ask your bank to issue you a debit-only card for ATM use - one without a Visa or Mastercard logo. That way, if you ever do lose the card, it's not possible for someone to empty your bank account before you notice the loss and cancel the card.

Re:A regular bank account?

[MightyYar]

A large percentage of people that have credit cards use them to buy more than they can afford to pay off at the end of the month (due in no small part to credit cards that keep raising spending limits far beyond what a lot of people can reasonably afford), ensuring that customers will pay financing fees for the rest of their lives.

That's a whole separate issue, though. For a responsible person, "check cards" make little sense.

I could see using one to "enforce" a budget, though. Create a separate account with your spending money in it and attach a check card to it... are there people who are super-anal-organized but have no self control? :)

Re:A regular bank account?

[FragHARD]

Of course this assumes you want to have a credit rating???? and be on the grid.------.

Re:A regular bank account?

[mysidia]

Mobile phone companies do not report anything to CRAs, unless you default on your obligation to pay according to your contract.

The only other thing that might show up on your credit report due to a cell phone, would be a soft pull inquiry from when you signed up (Cell phone company will check your credit report, but not add any information to it about your cell phone accounts, if they are in good standing).

Re:A regular bank account?

[mysidia]

Or the rest of the world seems bizarre to the US. The US being a leader. Just because it's in the minority, doesn't mean its practice is not superior and the economic best choice.

I suppose in other countries more consumers are more responsible, do what they promise they will do, manage their finances intelligently, and live up to their obligations.

In the US, we have some people receiving government assistance who buy buy buy, people mortgaged to the hilt, and other participants in rampant consumerism who feel entitled and don't bat a second thought at ignoring all their obligations and filing bankruptcy.

Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that debtors' prisons were abolished in the US many years before they were in other countries.

Or maybe the banks are just plain greedy and throwing out some of the babies with the bathwater is just the cost of doing business to them.

Re:A regular bank account?

[mysidia]

The FCRA prohibits the credit reporting agencies from disclosing information about credit report pulls that were not requested to approve a consumer transaction (application for a credit or insurance transaction)

Only hard inquiries hurt. Hard inquiries pertain only to a credit or insurance transaction initiated by the consumer, and can stay on the report for up to 2 years. Your score can be effected, and hard inquiries are visible on your report.

Inquiries you perform yourself (account review) are completely invisible and don't effect your score.

Soft/promotional inquiries don't effect your score or ability to get credit. Third parties cannot see soft inquiries.
If you have lots of companies pulling soft inquiries to send you pre-screened offers for credit, this is beneficial, as they will generally cause the hard inquiries to 'fall off' of the report sooner than otherwise.

Re:A regular bank account?

[mysidia]

There's a difference between one day having $65,000 in fraudulent charges showing up on a credit card statement, and one day seeing your bank account balance has dropped $65,000 and is now in the negative with $50,000 in overdraft charges added.

I assure you, the latter is more distressing, as it effects even your ability to write a check or pay other bills until the whole thing gets worked out, with your bank returning items for all those bills you paid that month...

Re:A regular bank account?

[Teancum]

This is very horrible advise, and my advise to "young people" (aka somebody earning a minimum wage job and just starting out in life) to completely ignore this completely. Credit cards are not needed, and "credit" will be extended at the time you really need it in life... if it is needed at all.

Do, however, check your credit scores and get your "free annual credit report" to at least check up to see if some idiot is using your name and "identity". If that comes up as a complete blank, don't fret it either.

There are times that having a modest credit card does come in handy. "Judicious use and management" means that you find one that has a $0 annual fee (if you can find one) and making dang sure that you pay off the balance completely each month if at all possible. Still, it is possible to get by without one.

Do open a bank account and establish a relationship with a bank at some level.

The point here is that if you have a lack of a credit history, building "good credit scores" is much, much easier to accomplish than trying to repair a horrible credit score and paying off a mountain of debt due to jumping into the credit game far too early in life. If you are still living with Mom & Dad and don't need to pay for much in life, don't seek or get credit at all. Most kids going into college don't need credit cards either, certainly not most freshmen. College graduates? Perhaps or if you are married and having kids and dealing with stuff like rent, utility payments, groceries, and medical bills.

Advise to "young people" is to pay as much with cash as possible, mainly because it is far and away too tempting to "charge it" when you really don't have the resources to pay it off. When you run out of cash, it is easy to say "I can't buy that" and stick to your guns as you really don't have the money to be able to afford it.

When it comes to the time in your life when you need to get a mortgage or buy that commuter car that is absolutely necessary for transport to & from work (hopefully paying a good salary to justify that expense), if you are simply out of debt and have some money tucked into savings you will find that you can get the credit needed. By the time you get to that stage in your life, it is possible you may even have expense accounts and other ways to "build credit" that is rather painless.

Re:A regular bank account?

[Anonymous Coward]

You know it's interesting, because I think the exact opposite way. Knowing people who have been drugged, or overcharged... What happened is...
1. They paid with a credit card some reasonable amount (they thought)
2. They realized they had been charged thousands of $$$
3. They reported it to their card company
4. Their card company puts the charges on hold while they investigate for 2 months.
5. The merchant dummies up some receipt (may not even be required if they just added a few 0s to something you signed...).
6. The verdict comes down that you have to pay.

the only way out would be to go to the police, and they aren't going to do that much for a few thousand dollars, until a whole lot of people complain about the same place.

OORrr.....

You can use a debit card, and the most they can take is what is in your account. (I am assuming this is not your main savings account, but an account you use to pay bills).

Most of my friends (and I myself) perceive the second way to be much safer, since they can't take what's not in there.

Re:A regular bank account?

[Anonymous Coward]

I call BS here. If you claim fraud with a bank, they often credit you the money right away while they investigate. The same is true of credit card companies (they will put the charges on hold).

What happens next, though, is somewhat random. Often the companies would rather bill you than fight with the merchant (who is more likely to fight them in court). If they find against you, then you have to pay. You can say "It's up to them to bring legal action", but the reality is, if you don't pay your bill:
1. You lose your card. (which could be anywhere between a minor annoyance, to a major hardship).
2. You get bad things on your credit report.

And then they will bring legal action, and show in court that they already investigated, and have no proof that the charge was fraudulent, and .... the court will likely make you pay...

Re:A regular bank account?

[Teancum]

So why are you buying that shiny new car in the first place? That sounds like your problem, not the lack of ability to get "credit" for the thing. If you are trying to "establish credit", perhaps that used junker of a car for a couple thousand dollars on a signatory loan would be a better kind of purchase anyway... even presuming you have a very good paying job at the same company and having been employed there for a decade or more.

Odds are very likely that if you have "good" credit, you are more likely to get in over your head as well.

Don't get caught up into this game. Good credit scores are much easier to obtain than repairing a bad credit score and recovering from a mountain of debt for purchases that aren't asset building in the first place. Generally an automobile loan is not a good move, unless you are a salesman trying to con somebody in the first place. If you have the surplus cash and a good income, that is one thing, and likely you will get the loan if you ask for it as well. A high paying job and longevity at the job are far more important things to worry about than a good credit score.

Re:A regular bank account?

[mysidia]

So why are you buying that shiny new car in the first place? That sounds like your problem, not the lack of ability to get "credit" for the thing.

You are making some sort of value judgement here. Obviously you don't value shiny cars, even if the buyer can easily afford the loan with gobs and gobs of cash to spare, you think they should buy some junker that does not appeal to sensibilities, instead.

And there may be an opportunity cost there in taking cash out of investments such as bonds or other instruments in a tax-deferred format earning higher interest rates than the costs of loans at the time available to people of good credit standing.

Other people will have a different value opinion -- even if not shiny cars, the availability of inexpensive credit has benefits.

Odds are very likely that if you have "good" credit, you are more likely to get in over your head as well.

This is like saying if you have a more powerful table saw, you are more likely to cut yourself badly. Therefore young adults should stay away even from hand saws.

Don't get caught up into this game. Good credit scores are much easier to obtain than repairing a bad credit score and recovering from a mountain of debt for purchases that aren't asset building in the first place.

Which is why judicious use is strongly recommended. However, a younger person has fewer purchases to make and less money to spend, also. They are less likely to get themselves into trouble than someone who starts first getting access to credit and starting to deal with it and establish 'bill payment habits' only later.

Generally an automobile loan is not a good move, unless you are a salesman trying to con somebody in the first place.

People will buy automobiles on loan or (god forbid), leases, regardless. It's less costly for them, at least, if they can get a lesser interest rate.

Preferably by sidestepping dealers and taking out a direct loan with the bank they can negotiate the best rate with.

Re:A regular bank account?

[DM_Slicer]

I live in the UK and have two credit cards - one with CapitalOne, the other with my Bank (I also have a seperate debit card with this bank). The bank credit card I hardly ever use, except as a "Backup" for if the other card fails... I usually carry it about in a seperate bag when I'm going on holiday, etc.

About 9 months ago I got called form my bank who noticed a small charge being made to the credit card from some random business - something in the region of 20 pence or so. I didn't recognise the company, so they "blocked" the charge and said no more about it. About two weeks later I noticed there were two further charges made on this account I didn't recognise - both for about £10. A quick call and the person on the phone from the bank was able to tell me that the charges were payment for phone "top up cards" somewhere in England (I live in Ireland - so this is nowhere near me). They were refunded, and I got a new card in the post. Zero hassle getting it refunded, nothing else since.

Two days ago, I got a call from CapitalOne for much the same thing - a bunch of small charges made on the card. Given that I use this card all the time for everything under the sun, I watch the monthly statements for it pretty closely. I've had the card for a good many years this is the first time they've phoned me up. The charges in question ended up being something I recognised off Amazon.co.uk - the retailer had charged my account several times for a bunch of small items all ordered at the same time (the day before), instead of lumping them all into one bigger charge. It's probably not the only thing that might have qualified as "suspicious activity" on that card over the years, but it surprised me that they noticed and jumped on the event so quickly.

I've been impressed with the security when ordering online using the CapitalOne card before too. The majority of uk sites I submit it to as a payment method bring me to a secure password login screen, which over the years has evolved from the usual drab and just-waiting-for-an-exploit "Enter your password" business to "enter the Xth, Yth and Zth characters of your [rather-long-and-non-dictionary-attack-brute-forceable] password". I type it wrong (happens occasionally- try remembering the 3rd, 8th and 22nd characters of a long random string of alphanumeric characters offhand at 2am! This also cuts down on the more dumbass/drunk purchases), no sale, and no option to just continue and charge the card "normally".

Virtual-card load with paypal?

[smasha]

I would also love to know where i would be able to get a virtual card that can be loaded with paypal. All the sites I've been to all seem like scam sites.

I'm interested too... but where?

[Anonymous Coward]

Depending on your needs I know of no good solutions but here are some:

You can buy a Simon Gift Card at malls around the country. Don't be fooled by the name. You probably know your mall by a different name even though it is owned by Simon malls. You most likely have one in your town even if you think you do as I discovered. If you don't you will within close driving distance. I live in in the middle of nowhere practically! Not a major city or anything. The NJ/PA border area and have one even. Initially I thought I had to drive a ways. Wasn't true though. Had one 5 min down the road. The fee is $2.95 and you can get them as low as $20. The nice thing about these cards is whatever is left on the old one can be put onto the new one. BUT don't ask them to transfer it- that will cost money. Instead when you buy the new one split the transaction paying partly cash and pay the rest with the old Simon Gift Card. You can have them check the balance of the old Simon Gift Card if you don't know what it is for free.

http://www.simon.com/giftcard/

Another one is citiibank. I'm not a fan of citibank but you can open a checking account and they have a feature just like what paypal had which lets you create virtual numbers. Of course this doesn't work if you are a privacy conscious consumer. Or at least you can't open an account without ID.

Cash Credit Card

[Anonymous Coward]

Why don't you just use a (re)loadable credit card? Pretty sure most major banks have them.

Re:Look for an option from your credit card compan

[ls671]

I opened an 'active virtual account number' valid for an unlimited time and unlimited amount and also valid with an unlimited number of merchants and it is the only one I use all the time ;-)

Orbiscom has the patent

[Distan]

The general patent to do virtual credit card numbers is held by Orbiscom. They are the provider of most of the Credit Card vendor's solutions: Citi, Discover, BoA, etc.

http://www.orbiscom.com/

Re:Orbiscom has the patent

[Anonymous Coward]

The general patent to do virtual credit card numbers is held by Orbiscom. They are the provider of most of the Credit Card vendor's solutions: Citi, Discover, BoA, etc.

http://www.orbiscom.com/

Business patents just got tossed and software patents will be curtailed or tossed soon enough.

This post smells like lawyer put it up.

Re:Orbiscom has the patent

[iammani]

So?

Re:Orbiscom has the patent

[Anonymous Coward]

They might have told PayPal to go shove an anvil where the sun doesn't shine or get sued if they never had a licence for it. (most likely)

Re:Orbiscom has the patent

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

Well, for one thing, Mastercard recently bought Orbiscom. Mastercard sees paypal as a competitor. Since all disposable credit card numbers (including disposable VISA numbers) are handled through Orbiscom's systems Mastercard may have made it prohibitively expensive for Paypal to do business that way.

Entropay

[DamonHD]

See https://www.entropay.com/

Disclaimer: I'm biased as I was one of the founders!

Rgds

Damon

Re:Entropay

[Anonymous Coward]

looks like for a 5% +2.50 fee you can get around credit card charges for cash withdraws.

Re:Entropay

[tru3ntropy]

This is exactly what i need. Thanks

Re:Entropay

[ygslash]

See https://www.entropay.com/
Disclaimer: I'm biased as I was one of the founders!

This looks like a great service - the best that I've seen in this topic, among those that don't require an existing account at a specific bank.

Here are several other pre-paid card services that are designed for youth accounts, but can be used as a plain pre-paid card as well:

• PayJr
• Allow Card
• Prepaid cards of various kinds directly from Visa, supported by at least 30 different banks (see drop-down lists on site)
• USAA Federal Savings Bank (requires USAA membership - really, really worth it if you qualify)

Re:Entropay

[Anonymous Coward]

4.95% charge to deposit? $8--9 to get it back.? Do you use computers or have guys with green eye shades?

Re:Entropay

[sco08y]

4.95% charge to deposit? $8--9 to get it back.? Do you use computers or have guys with green eye shades?

No, they're based in the UK. Someone's got to pay for all that free education, free health care, generous social programs, etc.

Re:Entropay

[DamonHD]

1) That's considerably less than the loading some credit-card acquirers gouge their merchants for, by comparison, and which you probably never see.

2) Fraud prevention and customer service are expensive wherever you are in the world. I suspect you'll find that you're still getting decent personable service from Entropy.

But please note that I'm no longer involved day-to-day and I don't in any way speak for Entropay.

Rgds

Damon

Re:Entropay

[smallfries]

Nice service. I've used for a while to get around Ryanair's charges, and then for other online purchases.

I doubt that I'll continue using it though as I've got a Visa Debit turning up in the post that doesn't skim 5%. You considered cheaper payment options?

Re:Entropay

[sco08y]

That's considerably less than the loading some credit-card acquirers gouge their merchants for, by comparison, and which you probably never see.

When other people do it it's "gouging," but your motives are purer than the driven snow.

Color me skeptical. I understand that handling money safely is expensive, and I don't begrudge people making a living off it.

But the 5% has nothing to do with how much merchants have to pay. They're still going to pay fees to their acquirer with your card. If you were selling a regular credit card, you'd charge interest to your customers.

And, yes, customer support and financial security are expensive. You live in a highly regulated country, yet with all those regulations, you have about the same problems with fraud as here. You also have to provide more benefits and pay more income taxes to your support staff, driving up your costs. Higher taxes and more regulations do make goods and services more expensive, and that helps explain why you charge 5% while banks fund similar services by reinvesting deposits.

Having said that, the numbers may be changing if Paypal is canceling this service.

Re:Entropay

[DamonHD]

With respect, you have no idea where the staff are located.

And yes, some merchants may be able to pay lower acquirer fees if accepting Entropay payments for various reasons, so Entropay's cut is not necessarily on top. (I'm out of the loop and don't know if any take advantage of those features.) A fixed fee hides a great deal of complexity in how Entropay is/was itself charged and its risks. I was for exposing all its eyewatering rigmarole for transparency and pushing customers to use things in ways cheaper for all of us, but was overruled by wiser heads.

And your sniping at EU social benefits is simply distasteful in this context. Actually, I'm glad I don't live in the US, shackled to some nasty employer because of the long-standing medical conditions that I do have. Though not terrible, I haven't had to worry about bankrupting myself if I've needed treatment and I've been able to take bigger risks than I might otherwise, and stay freelance all my working life, just about. I also notice that much of the difference in my US peers' income/taxes and mine has been spent by them on health insurance. And yes I've spent plenty of time in the US. I would not have been able to start Entropay in the US health regime AFAIK. So please let's just drop this line of attack since at best it's pots and kettles.

So, back to the issue. Knowing some of what goes on to provide the service, and the need to present a simple charging structure to end users, that fee is in no way gouging. And there's lots of competition.

Rgds

Damon

Re:Entropay

[RKBA]

"Load an EntroPay card from a personal credit or debit card: 4.95%"

Almost 5% transaction fee to use your "virtual card"? Are you kidding? A person would have to be a fool to pay that kind of fee. Have any customers yet?

Re:Entropay

[DamonHD]

Yes, many.

Rgds

Damon

Re:Look for an option from your credit card compan

[Kelbear]

I love this service as well.

I wish they could offer the same thing for in-person or over-the-phone purchases. I really don't like having to hand over my credit card to strangers. Perhaps one day security technology will catch up. Anybody could easily come up with a half-dozen ways to improve security in the process. Sure there are obstacles for implementation, but they're far from insurmountable. It seems like the risks and occurrences have to get worse before they get better.

I would like to pose another question

[mysidia]

Is there a way you can get a virtual account number with multiple physical cards issued against the same CC account?

Of course, optimally would be a physical card that changes its own magstripe, based on you typing a code and a mnemonic identifying the vendor.

Online shopping may be risky... However, offline shopping can involve the same risks.

Old fashioned physical theft by employees is a real possibility, especially in restaurants where your physical CC leaves your sight. While the cashier is behind the counter, you have no idea they are running your card through a hidden skimmer.

Also, big companies store CC information in their computer systems nowadays, just like online stores do.

Virtual account numbers are nice, and solve one problem, but they aren't comprehensive.

Especially if you use the physical CC associated with the same account you have virtual numbers against. If your physical CC gets lost, the thief can make unlimited charges against your entire account, and when you get it cancelled, suddenly you can't use your virtual accounts based on that card anymore either......

So are there more comprehensive solutions? :)

Re:I would like to pose another question

[Anonymous Coward]

If your physical CC gets lost, the thief can make unlimited charges against your entire account, and when you get it cancelled, suddenly you can't use your virtual accounts based on that card anymore either

Untrue, at least with BoA's ShopSafe. I had my physical card number compromised by a stupid data breach by an "undisclosed party", so I was automatically forced to get a new "physical card"/account number. BoA Did The Right Thing and automagically repointed my virtual account numbers over to the new account. In short, it seems that the problems you purport are based on a flawed premise.

I love the level of indirection that I get from my ShopSafe numbers. Were you cognizant that once an account number has been used by a merchant, then it is *solely* valid for subsequent charges from the same merchant? (up to the limit that you have preset, naturally) So, even if someone compromised the number—which I have only used with one vendor—then it still can't be used by the thief. This allows me great confidence that I can create a virtual account number and never have to worry about having a recurring charge (internet service, etc) bouncing in the future due to compromise of my "root" account number or the virtual account number.

That said, there can be issues. I once had my health insurance premium bounce on an virtual account number because the company changed their charge entry and the BoA system thought that counted as a different merchant. However, that was certainly a boundary case; how often does a sane merchant change their charge entry?

To summarize, it's great to have these numbers, especially when you can stick it to vendors who think they can keep charging you indefinitely once they have your credit card number (I am looking at you XBox Live). "So sorry, bitches!"

Re:I would like to pose another question

[JoshDM]

Is there a way you can get a virtual account number with multiple physical cards issued against the same CC account?

Citibank Virtual Cars allow this.

Re:I would like to pose another question

[Anonymous Coward]

chip+pin ... type your damn PIN into a legit machine... safe and secure like

Try the Citibank/Citicard

[Lobsang]

I have a Citibank/American Airlines card that has this option. The interface to create the virtual card number is somewhat crappy (flash) but it works. This is probably available on other citibank cards as well.

Neteller has virtual preloaded Mastercards

[twomi]

See intro about Neteller's virtual MC here: http://public.neteller.com/content/en_GB/cards_virtual.htm

Re:Neteller has virtual preloaded Mastercards

[Black.Shuck]

I don't have mod-points, but I can vouch for Neteller's service.

Re:Neteller has virtual preloaded Mastercards

[Anonymous Coward]

But, who can vouch for you?

Not dead

[tagno25]

The Paypal virtual credit card service is not dead. I can still create new virtual credit cards and did just yesterday. It may just be limited to specific people or you just need to know where to click.

Re:Not dead

[butlerm]

It is not dead yet, but it will be. Paypal has announced they will be discontinuing service after September 22, 2010. Check out the link.

Re:Look for an option from your credit card compan

[adolf]

I wish they could offer the same thing for in-person [...]. I really don't like having to hand over my credit card to strangers. Perhaps one day security technology will catch up. Anybody could easily come up with a half-dozen ways to improve security in the process. Sure there are obstacles for implementation, but they're far from insurmountable. It seems like the risks and occurrences have to get worse before they get better.

Cash.

For those outside of America

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.virtualvcard.com.au/home.aspx

can be used from Australia, New Zealand, Hong Kong, India, and the United Kingdom

still exists to prior users

[ZeroNullVoid]

people grandfathered in can still use it,

I have only used the plugin once prior to uninstalling, but if you were a member with it, the option is paypal plugin on the right when you login.

I depend on it and use it all the time.

One side note, if paypal detects fraud because you login from an unusual area in their opinion, all your virtual cards get deleted and you will have to make new ones and send them to people who regularly charge on them for reoccurring payments.

Will never deal with Paypal

[syousef]

I've had what I consider a very bad experience with Paypal and now I only use them begrudgingly if I have no other alternative. I consider their assurances technically accurate but due to their execution to be of no use whatsoever to me. So I treat all transactions put through Paypal as high risk "might not get what you pay for" transactions. If I were looking for a credit card, I'd rather poke out both my eyes than get one with that company. I don't think I'm alone.

Re:Will never deal with Paypal

[iamhassi]

"I've had what I consider a very bad experience with Paypal and now I only use them begrudgingly if I have no other alternative."

I've had more "very bad experiences" with Paypal than you can shake a stick at, watching them steal thousands of my dollars over the years using various excuses, and of course they won't provide any evidence as to why I owed them the money. Unfortunately I still use them because they are the only ones. They have the easiest website integration, thousands of programmers know how to setup advanced shopping carts and customers trust them. There's nothing I can do.

I seriously considered google shopping cart but apparently there's just as many complaints again them and there's no 800 number for customer service, everything is by email.

If anyone knows an alternative to Paypal that customers trust please let me know.

Re:Will never deal with Paypal

[Zemran]

I find Paypal completely unusable as they freeze my account every time I use it. I am always traveling (currently in Kazakhstan) and each time I access the account they see my access as unauthorised because I am in a different country and they freeze my account until I re-authorise it by jumping through a series of hoops. I have spoken to people and complained but they are unable to see my moving around as normal for me. One time, whilst in Azerbaijan, I transferred some money from my bank account to pay for something and they froze the account with my money trapped in the Paypal account and I had to wait until I returned home (several months later) to release the money as they wanted me to be able to check the amount of a couple of payments they make into my bank account. I felt like they had stolen from me. How many unauthorised users pay money into the account? I could not use my money to pay for what I wanted to buy and had to use an actual credit card. Now I just accept that they are rubbish and I have to use actual credit cards.

Re:Will never deal with Paypal

[jroysdon]

I'd suggest using a US-based webproxy service so your web traffic appears to come from the US.

Re:Will never deal with Paypal

[flyingfsck]

Well duh - set up a socks proxy to a server in a friendly country.

Re:Will never deal with Paypal

[iammani]

Amazon Payments is a good alternative. Google (as in Google Checkout) has always have had customer service problems, but in terms of easy of web integration and shopping cart setup, I would rank them pretty much on par with paypal.

Re:Will never deal with Paypal

[thegarbz]

Well duh - set up a socks proxy to a server in a friendly country.

Are you actually saying that your solution to a rubbish company is to use stupid workarounds so you can keep using that company? I ... simply don't know what to say to that.

Re:Will never deal with Paypal

[SpzToid]

All I can do is mention www.moneris.com since a friend in the CC industry suggested this fairly recently, towards a charity we're both involved in. Aside from this suggestion to research on my own for our own purposes, I have nothing else to offer you except this simple mention.

Re:Will never deal with Paypal

[beadfulthings]

If anyone knows an alternative to Paypal that customers trust please let me know.

I don't think there is one, and it's something I've searched for. The other problem is that they've become a household name on the end-user side of things, and most buyers trust them, rightly or wrongly. It's rare to find a customer who refuses to use them. When you do find one, their story is usually pretty bloodcurdling.

I'd like to shuck them as well, but I don't see myself doing it for a long time. I set up a pretty good service (Propay) that enables me to take cards in person at shows and over the phone (and that doesn't cost me the $30-plus per month that "Paypal Virtual Terminal" soaks you for). But Propay wants hundreds for the api that would let me interface them to my shopping cart.

Re:Will never deal with Paypal

[smallfries]

There are only two kinds of people:

• Those who have had a bad experience with Paypal and stopped using them.
• Those who haven't had that experience yet.

For me it was a refund over a graphics card from ebay that was dead on arrival. They lied to me about the refund process until the card was returned to the seller and then once it was posted switched their line and insisted that they would never have agreed to a refund. I never used them again.

Re:Will never deal with Paypal

[shadowofwind]

You could try contacting your state attourney general. Paypal gave our money back ($1200) when the Ohio attourney general inquired on our behalf. The Washington attourney general seemed interested also, calling us a couple of times, and it appeared likely they would have done something if Ohio hadn't first.

Re:Will never deal with Paypal

[Anonymous Coward]

gpal... google it

Re:Will never deal with Paypal

[egcagrac0]

In other words, PayPal is not for people who travel internationally a great deal. Rather, it is designed for the other 99% of the public.

This guy's insightful. +1 in my book.

Re:Will never deal with Paypal

[Anonymous Coward]

I 2nd Amazon Payments. I've been using them for about 6 months now and have had no issues.

Re:Will never deal with Paypal

[iamhassi]

I've never heard of them and I doubt my customers have either.

I see from their website that they offer a online payment gateway which is nice but I actually don't want customers to enter credit cards on my website.

I know that sounds strange, but the reason is no one trusts the internet unless you're Walmart.com, Amazon.com, etc. If you're JackAndJillsStore.com they're not going to want to put their credit card number on your website no matter what great price or product you offer. By using Paypal or Google Checkout or Amazon Payments I'm sending the customers to a website they do trust and they are familiar with and they will give them their credit card number.

Re:Will never deal with Paypal

[Zemran]

Not so, most financial companies are able to see patterns. If you never travel abroad and then your credit card is used in Romania the credit card company sees a change in your pattern of use but as I travel around all the time they do not see a change in my use. I have 'TOLD' Paypal about my habits but they are unable to see my usage as not being unauthorised.

As for proxies, I guess you guys do not travel much. Paypal normally detects them and refuses to accept the login, which I respect, and they are blocked in most countries I go to. Try to use one next time you are on holiday in somewhere like Thailand. In some Arabic countries (like the UAE) that I go to, their use is actually illegal.

Re:Will never deal with Paypal

[bill_mcgonigle]

As for proxies, I guess you guys do not travel much. Paypal normally detects them and refuses to accept the login, which I respect, and they are blocked in most countries I go to. Try to use one next time you are on holiday in somewhere like Thailand. In some Arabic countries (like the UAE) that I go to, their use is actually illegal.

I don't travel all that much but I'm on call and need to be able to use a real Internet when I need to. The DNS+HTTP/S only WAP's are all too prevalent in cafes and hotels these days, so I've set up an OpenVPN instance at my office on port 443 which I use to tunnel all my traffic. It's a consistency play, not getting around any stupid website or national policies specifically.

If there's a real proxy in your way, not just a port-allow, it's a tiny bit more complex, but you can make OpenVPN do real SSL too:

http://blog.foppiano.org/2008/07/24/how-to-openvpn-over-proxy/

If you don't have an office, a rackspace cloud vm or similar should do.

Re:Will never deal with Paypal

[bdobbs]

How did you manage to get attorneys general of two states to take an interest in your complaint?

Re:Will never deal with Paypal

[shadowofwind]

Washington was doing a general investigation of similar cases. I don't recall specifically what made them aware of ours.

Ohio we contacted. Our case was quite clear cut: Paypal was simply trying to steal our money, without any kind of plausible pretext. This was back before eBay bought them. It appears that whenever there was any kind of confusion in relation to a large transaction, Paypal policy was to grab the funds and stonewall, with their reps incentivized their to tell the buyer and seller any truth or lie that minimizes the chances of Paypal losing money. I found it quite shocking. We fought them for months, and collected extensive documentation of this. We sued them in Ohio, but the judge claimed that the user agreement (since reworded) precluded lawsuits for any reason. Then when Ohio attourneys general contacted them, Paypal immediately folded without an explanation. It wasn't entirely satisfying, but at least the regulatory system sort of worked.

[USA only]

[krischik]

Well, this looks like USA only products. Paypal services are world wide.

Re:[USA only]

[mysidia]

Paypal is worldwide, but as far as I know, when this particular service operated, the option to use this particular service, virtual debit card was only shown on PayPal's US website to US customers...

Re:[USA only]

[laederkeps]

Swedbank (Sweden) offers customers an unlimited number of virtual Visa cards with a given maximum amount and expiration date. They are debit cards tied to the same account as your real plastic card.

Re:[USA only]

[Anonymous Coward]

One time auto generated card numbers have been available here in Sweden for quite some time. So its definitively not an us only product.

Can't recommend Citibank . . .

[Anonymous Coward]

I had a CitiBank card, and this was a nice feature. Unfortunately a few years ago it seemed like they started to get desperate and started playing any game they could think of to collect extra fees. Like changing the billing date and interest rate every billing cycle. When I set up automatic weekly payments to thwart that, they sent me a letter saying they were going to start charging me a yearly fee for a card that wasn't supposed to have one. When I declined, paid off the full balance, and asked them to close the account, they kept it open for several months and continued to charge small fees. When I asked why the account hadn't been closed they told me it was all a mistake and the fees would be removed and the account closed, but then they sent me a letter threatening to report me to a collection agency instead. Over less than $2 in fees charged to an account that was supposed to be closed two months prior to the fees being charges. So, what I'm saying is, I can't really recommend them as an alternative to PayPal -- when I canceled my account with them (or tried to anyway) I was disappointed to hear that PayPal was killing off their program. I have a Discover now, but their system is much more limited.

Convenience factor

[Anonymous Coward]

Virtual card numbers are primarily beneficial for the banks, since they cover the losses if your number gets stolen. I used to generate virtual card numbers with Citicards all the time in hopes of avoiding the inconvience of reporting fraud, getting a replacement card, etc. even though it was a hassle (because I could otherwise memorize my number and not have to login to citicards.com to generate one). Still, twice in the last year my card number was stolen somehow and had to be replaced. The first time, fraud was detected before the transaction was allowed, so I just got a notification stating as much, and that my card would be replaced. The second time, I caught the fraud while checking my account online. I reported it and again, the card had to be replaced.

So, I no longer bother with virtual card numbers. PayPal may be a little different, but since other commenters are recommending Citicards, I felt this was relevant.

An alternative

[Anonymous Coward]

An anonymous, alternative to paying online.

www.bitcoin.org

Dumpster behind Olive Garden, Penny's, near mall

[catmistake]

YMMV

Re:Look for an option from your credit card compan

[ChipMonk]

You can't push coins or bills down an IP connection, no matter how fat or thin.

HDFC Bank India

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.hdfcbank.com/personal/payments/netsafe/netsafe.htm

It's an Indian bank. I have been using it successfully and with no hassles over the last 5 years.

Why are things like this discontinued ?

[Anonymous Coward]

Why the hell do good services like this get discontinued ? American Express and another bank I used also had this. Simple to use and gave me peace of mind since more or less no one takes security seriously. Both services were killed without a reasonable explanation. They must profit off fraud or something.

RIP Paypal

[Anonymous Coward]

The one useful feature they still had over other services, aside from breadth of use, is now gone. I'm for switching - there have been to many bad experiences for me to realistically continue using it. It's time to let the market forces do their work.

-eruditorum

Re:Look for an option from your credit card compan

[amRadioHed]

You'll note that the OP was talking about better security for in-person transactions. For IP connections, the one-time use card numbers this thread is all about work nicely.

Virtual Visa

[tru3ntropy]

I use virtual visa card http://www.virtualvcard.com.au/home.aspx dont know if it works in America but it was the only thing i could find at the time. Instead of giving you a one time card number it allows you you to deactivate and reactive the number any time.

Other Options

[Netbrian]

I've had reasonably good luck with prepaid cards such as Visa giftcards. It's not quite one-time use, but has most of the same advantages.

Re:Other Options

[JWSmythe]

    I've been totally satisfied with the Green Dot cards. They're sold under a few names, including the "Walmart Money Card". It's a physical card, so it doesn't totally apply to the question. It costs something like $3 for the card, and you can add cash to it at any Green Dot vendor. (plus a small service fee). Put as much as you're going to spend on it, and use it. If it becomes compromised, cut it up. :)

    You get a temporary card in the package. They mail the real card with your name on it within about a week. I bought one to make a road trip with, and used the temporary card at gas stations along the whole trip. You can't refill the temp card though, it only gets the initial balance. So if you get a card and put $200 on it, it costs you $203. When that $200 is gone, the card doesn't work any more. Once you get the real card with your name on it, you can add money as you see fit.

    I use mine a lot. There's no overdraft fees, since they simply don't allow it. When it gets down towards $0, it's done. The big problem is when you have like $1.68 on it, you either have to make a small purchase to burn that up, or let it sit. It's not like you can pull $1 out of an ATM, or at least nowhere I've seen.

Re:Other Options

[bill_mcgonigle]

The big problem is when you have like $1.68 on it, you either have to make a small purchase to burn that up, or let it sit.

Hrm.... question - if I setup a website to allow you to donate that small balance to charity would you be willing to fill out the form?

Re:Look for an option from your credit card compan

[Sycraft-fu]

Shopsafe works great, I use it any time I am buying from a small merchant (Newegg and the like I order enough they get to have the real number). It creates the numbers in real time so you just log in to the bank as you are going to check out and make a new number, or add money to a number.

Discover has the same kind of thing, though I've not used it. Looks like the same idea though.

Seems to be getting to be fairly common with banks.

Damn, what about the people who refuse to use cred

[dhickman]

I am of the crowd who simply does not use credit.
I have been using the paypal virtual cards for years for internet transactions and just used it an hour ago to buy new book for my kindle.
I have no problems paying a reasonable price for the service.
What alternatives are there for those of us who does not use credit cards under any circumstance?

Mod Down

[Anonymous Coward]

Above post has been copied from http://yro.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1739310&cid=33099926.

Feel free to mod redundant, flamebait or troll. Khyber usually falls under all 3 categories.

Re:Mod Down

[petermgreen]

While the two posts say essentially the same thing they don't appear to be direct copies.

Re:Mod Down

[Khyber]

Apparently the fool thinks that one sentence in a slashdot post = a full paragraph from another person's post, although mine directly relates with having had to try getting a loan not last week for a house. My credit score showed as 2010 - which means I have NO credit. I've had several phone contracts.

Oh well. Note how they must post anonymously to try to make a fool out of someone that has done nothing. Sometimes I do wish I could find these people. I'd tie them up, shove tubes down their throats, and hook a cow's ass up to the main tube.

Not that I know of

[Sycraft-fu]

The best thing over all to deal with that is just watch your account carefully. In this day and age of online banking there's no excuse not to check your accounts once a week minimum. The next thing to do is get yourself multiple CC accounts. That way if one is deactivated, you don't have any real problem. Personally I have 4, a visa, a mastercard, a discover card and an american express card. The discover and amex are basically for special deals, since they sign on some merchants to give you bonuses if you use them, and there are some places (like Costco) that only take them. The visa is my primary card since it gives miles on the airline I like. The mastercard is a general purpose backup. Have a card compromised isn't a big deal with a setup like that.

Something else you can do is pick a card that is your "high risk" card. Since there's less activity on it, it is easier to monitor and you don't have as many problems if you have to cancel it. I usually use my mastercard, the backup card, for phone purchases like pizza orders for that reason.

You can go and get a prepaid debit card if you really want to have some insular security. These are cards you put money on to and then can spend. Problem is that it is a pain to do, and that it is debit. With a credit card, if fraud happens you haven't lost anything. You are simply disputing you owe the money. That means if push comes to shove they have to take you to court to get money out of you in the case of a disagreement. With a debit card the money is gone and your are claiming they should give it back. That means if push comes to shove you have to take them to court to get it back.

Just keep a backup card or two and you should be fine. If you are really worried, keep one of them in a safe at home. That way if your wallet is taken it is still available.

We can hope that some day they'll start to use smartchip cards in person. This is popular in some other countries and between the chip and the pin they require they are extremely hard to use fraudulently. But until then you just have to deal with it from time to time. Just take some precautions and it is fine. You are never responsible for fraudulent charges by law.

Even if you do everything right, you may get hit sometime. One of my cards was hit (though it never got used) because a payment processor got broken in to. No problem, the bank was informed by the processor, canceled the card and issued a new one. A pain, but not a big one.

Re:Look for an option from your credit card compan

[Anonymous Coward]

Even virtual coins and bills?

alternatives for ontime pay, how about one vendor

[dhickman]

I see that there are other one time virtual cards.
The other feature that paypal had was single vendor cards for a year. I used those alot for amazon, t-mobile etc.

This was to protect from either a vendor that I do monthly business with from getting hacked or in the case of vendors like T-mobile who require a credit card for monthly service and I want the ability to cancel the account without it affecting my actual bank account.

Running out of credit card number

[kamaaina]

Wonder if we are going to run out of credit card numbers.

These virtual credit cards are the reverse of NAT.

Re:Running out of credit card number

[JWSmythe]

    I suspect they'll recycle after a period of inactivity. Either that, or maybe that's why PayPal dropped the program. It was a pretty neat little deal though. I enjoyed it for online purchases. I was buying from a questionable site once. They took my card info, but then didn't allow the transaction to complete (internal error, not a card error). Rather than risking them taking money for a transaction not completed, I canceled the virtual number.

Re:Running out of credit card number

[DamonHD]

Recycling is key, just as with phone numbers, given the finite (though large) numbering space some of which is given up to structuring that space.

It's good to leave used numbers fallow for as long as possible of course, and there are some thresholds that you probably don't want to undercut such as the maximum time to be sure a card is clear of chargeback and other processing, and get out of any directories/DBs/etc.

And tainted numbers should generally be left for even longer of course (such as a card number that has been stolen and misused and/or is otherwise blacklisted), or a phone number that was, for example, a massage or pizza parlour (or both)!

Rgds

Damon

Re:Look for an option from your credit card compan

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

I wish they could offer the same thing for in-person or over-the-phone purchases.

Nothing stopping you from using the disposable credit card numbers over the phone.

In person - well you could try picking up a mag-stripe writer and using it to write a disposable number to a regular credit card. Just make sure you only swipe that card once before you re-write the mag-stripe with a new number...

Re:Look for an option from your credit card compan

[yyxx]

Is ShopSafe actually back? It had stopped working for a while, and support knew nothing about it. I eventually just canceled my accounts with them.

Neteller

[_Shad0w_]

I use NETELLER for times I need to use a card to buy stuff on the net, which is usually when they don't accept PayPal.

Re:Damn, what about the people who refuse to use c

[Anonymous Coward]

I am of the crowd who simply does not use credit.
I have been using the paypal virtual cards for years for internet transactions and just used it an hour ago to buy new book for my kindle.
I have no problems paying a reasonable price for the service.
What alternatives are there for those of us who does not use credit cards under any circumstance?

3 words: prepaid credit cards

Re:Look for an option from your credit card compan

[bev_tech_rob]

Ummm....that sounds like just a regular credit card account...big whoop.... not the same thing we are talking about...

Re:Look for an option from your credit card compan

[Anonymous Coward]

That was a whoosh, son. I say, a whoosh. Of course, in Texas we have whooshes five times as big as that.

Portugal's MBNet

[Sodki]

Virtual every debit and credit card in Portugal can have access to MBNet, a nationwide initiative in which you can have your one time credit card numbers.

We actually have a pretty accessible banking system here in Portugal. We have a state regulated entity called SIBS that pretty much guarantees that every banking system should be able to talk to the others. In practive, this means that every bank has at least one ATM that is compatible with every debit and credit card in the country, and can be used for free, with no taxes for money withdrawal and other operations. It's pretty sweet.

Re:Portugal's MBNet

[higuita]

Agree, i make a my online pays using this services and works great, never failed.

you are required to have a bank account and activate the MBNet service (and set the max limit MBNet usage per month). You can activate onine, on the ATM machines or directly on the bank.

The bank then automatically create the account in the MBNet and you are ready to use.

When you need to pay something, just login on the MBnet, choose the card limit and it creates one operation card with the shorter expiration allowed.

i think it only have Portuguese banks right now (https://www.mbnet.pt/adesao.html), but you can try to ask your bank to join this service and see what happens.

The MB ATM and services are one of the most advanced in the world (if not the most advanced) and free for the final user...and maybe that explain the lack of outside banks... they all like to take money from their clients, not give service for free! :)

Discover Card

[Anonymous Coward]

They have such a feature available to download. Does virtual cards and fills in forms if you wish. Easy online application. I got one a few months back and they seem to understand the net better than the traditional companies. They also have mobile apps.

Re:Look for an option from your credit card compan

[JamesP]

You're right, EXCEPT for the multitude of places that DON'T take cash (as of course I found out the hard way)

- Hotel rooms
- Car rental places

And I mean, not even "ok, can I pay with cash what I owe then you put your hold, whatever, in the CC??" "no."

You missed Discover you insensitive clod!

[Anonymous Coward]

Discover Secure Online Account Numbers

Re:Look for an option from your credit card compan

[Anonymous Coward]

I can second BoA's ShopSafe. Anyone know if they ever reinstated the standalone app for number generation?

Re:Look for an option from your credit card compan

[zippthorne]

If you don't specify a term on the VAN, I think it defaults to the max of a year. You can increase the time and money limits at any time, so theoretically you should be able to keep it going by just adding time as you get close to the end of the term.

Re:Look for an option from your credit card compan

[camperdave]

You can't push coins or bills down an IP connection, no matter how fat or thin.

YOU can't, but Chuck Norris...

How do I check my account once a week when...

[tepples]

In this day and age of online banking there's no excuse not to check your accounts once a week minimum.

I can't log in to my Target credit card account anymore. Once I enter my username and password, the site prompts me to set up self-service password reset by choosing five distinct "personal security questions" and entering their answers. This wouldn't be a problem, except all the available questions are things that one might find on someone's public Facebook profile. Examples:

• What was the name of your first pet?
• What is your nickname?
• What is the first foreign country you visited?

Even a telephone representative wasn't able to put in an exception for me after I explained the issue. See Bruce Schneier's take on this.

Re:How do I check my account once a week when...

[Sigma 7]

What was the name of your first pet?

FnLmBwfT

What is your nickname?

(U8L.T/1

What is the first foreign country you visited?

x)pENC^j

(I didn't look at the article before thinking about that. Of course, I was thinking about using a common theme among all three.)

Given that some of those questions are dynamic (e.g. what is your favourite color), it's sometimes hard to remember what should be the correct answer. I've seen people having trouble authenticating through that system, even when they're the ones typing in the answers - not only do they have to remember the answer, but they also have to remember the spelling as well.

If they want real security, send out keyfobs that have a randomly changing password. The only way to compromise them is within a 1-minute window.

Re:How do I check my account once a week when...

[DamonHD]

I had the same problem with my bank (Nationwide Building Society in the UK).

I pointed out that I don't have a favourite colour/pet/group/heartthrob, etc, not being a teenage girl, and I certainly won't have made-up answers to hand without *writing them down and carrying them around with me* at the stressful moment when my primary authentication fails.

Thankfully enough people complained that the bank backed down an introduced a rather smarter (though not totally sensible) system based on a stand-alone card reader. Now, in effect, your normal car PIN authorises significant online banking transactions.

I wish all my client's understood the same security reasoning.

Rgds

Damon

Re:How do I check my account once a week when...

[unitron]

The first pet question is easy. Who was the first Penthouse Pet (or Playboy Playmate of the Month) that really got your attention? There must be at least one whose name you still remember.

First foreign country you visited? Well, which did you read first, Tolkein (Middle Earth) or Lewis (Narnia)? Or maybe Honalee (Puff, the Magic Dragon).

Just because it's an "institution" asking the questions doesn't mean you're limited to the literal truth.

Re:How do I check my account once a week when...

[tepples]

Just because it's an "institution" asking the questions doesn't mean you're limited to the literal truth.

The truth is easier to remember than some set of fake answers that you made up years ago to work around a misguided security policy.

Re:How do I check my account once a week when...

[bickle]

I can't log in to my Target credit card account anymore.

Correction: won't. Hyperbole isn't an effective way of arguing your point.

Re:How do I check my account once a week when...

[tepples]

Correction: I can successfully enter my username and password, but the user interface has exactly two buttons: set personal security questions, or log out.

Re:How do I check my account once a week when...

[commanderfoxtrot]

One bank I used in the UK had a great question. "What is your grandfather's name"?

When I pointed out that I had two such grandfathers (each with different names), the call handler seemed rather surprised.

Dirt cheap postpaid mobile phone service?

[tepples]

A cell phone contract will establish history in the US as well.

Because I use my cell phone primarily to arrange an occasional ride, I pay $7 per month to Virgin Mobile USA for prepaid dumbphone service. What U.S. carriers offer a postpaid plan that is price-competitive with prepaid for someone who makes as few calls as I do?

Walk into your bank

[tepples]

I can walk into my bank and actually talk to someone, can you do that with ANY credit card company?

For one thing, banks are the credit card companies. My Wal-Mart Discover card, for example, says "GE Money Bank" on it. For another, you might not live near any branch of the bank where you have your savings and checking accounts, such as if you have an account at an online bank such as Ally, or if you're in the armed forces and deployed, or if you're away at college.

Re:Look for an option from your credit card compan

[Anonymous Coward]

I have used a credit card extensively while traveling. I have never had an issue with them taking cash instead of charging my card. The only reason they take the card is to hold reservations and in case you skip the bill. When check out comes, I ask what do I owe, and hand them cash. Makes it much easier to hide that non-taxed money I am spending when doing so.

It's you that doesn't understand

[sirwired]

I'm not convinced that you understand how credit cards work, or for that matter, how money works.

Doesn't matter if it's your bank or your credit card company, it's YOUR money that's gone. With a debit card the money comes out of your bank, with a credit card the money initially comes from the credit company, who sends you a bill, and you send them money[emphasis mine] from your bank. In either case you can file paperwork claiming fraud, and in both cases a valid claim of fraud will result in your money being returned. (specific policies vary by company and bank)

It's YOU that doesn't understand. Namely, you are completely oblivious to the fact that while it doesn't matter in the long run, in the short term, it can make a great deal of difference if the money is missing from your bank account, or is merely a line item on a credit card statement. With a credit card, you have the option of NOT sending them money while you fight. This is a vast improvement over your money missing from your checking account while you fight.

With a debit card, if the initial claim is denied, your bank account is empty and your rent payment is bouncing as you teeter on the edge of eviction while you argue with the bank. Your money (as in, the money that used to be in your checking account) is GONE. With a credit card, all they do is send you NastyGrams and call you when you refuse to pay; in the meantime you can still pay your rent and other bills while arguing with the bank. This is a huge difference. You are in a MUCH better position in the meantime than taking months to sue your bank to recover your hard-earned cash.

Given the choice, I'd rather deal with a bank than a credit card company. I can walk into my bank and actually talk to someone, can you do that with ANY credit card company?

You DO realize that virtually all branch banks offer credit cards, don't you? If you want a credit card from your local credit union, they almost certainly have one to offer you; likewise your community lending institution, etc. If you want to deal with nothing but a local bank, you can surely find one that will offer you a credit card.

(And, this is just picking nits, but all credit cards are offered by banks. They may not be branch banks, or retail depository institutions, but they are indeed banks.)

SirWired

Re:It's you that doesn't understand

[butlerm]

"With a debit card, if the initial claim is denied, your bank account is empty and your rent payment is bouncing as you teeter on the edge of eviction while you argue with the bank"

That is one reason not to use a debit card, especially online, without at least a months worth of savings in a separate account. That is my insurance policy for the scenario you describe.

Re:It's you that doesn't understand

[egcagrac0]

Or to have a debit card draw off a separate account.

The minor hassle of having to make a transfer from one account to another before making a large purchase is offset by not having a compromised account number possibly draining the main account.

Re:Damn, what about the people who refuse to use c

[higuita]

i dont use ANY credit card, i just use the MBNet virtual cards below... knowing how many online shops works, i dont trust a real credit card on ANY online service and i recommend everyone to do the same (and all the news about stolen credit cards databases proves that the system cant be trusted)

Re:Look for an option from your credit card compan

[hedwards]

At least in the US, they don't get a choice, they can take your CC number, but once it comes time to pay they are legally required to take cash. Because you typically pay for said services after you've used them they're debts which means that the company is legally obligated to take cash. Paying ahead of time, they can turn down cash, but once it's a debt they don't get a choice in the matter. If cash is what you want to pay with, cash is what they have to accept.

What in the hell are you talking about?

[DogDude]

"Unfortunately I still use them because they are the only ones. They have the easiest website integration, thousands of programmers know how to setup advanced shopping carts and customers trust them. There's nothing I can do."

What in the hell are you talking about? They're the only what? The only way to pay? The only way to accept credit cards? They're not the "only" anything, so I don't know why you say you're "forced" to use them.

Re:What in the hell are you talking about?

[iamhassi]

They're the only ones that offer:
1) easy website integration
2) thousands of programmers know how to setup advanced shopping carts thanks to the developer network
3) customers that trust them (that's very important)

and I thought of some more:
4) instant access to funds using the Paypal debit card.
5) 800 number where I can speak to a real person when I have a problem. Doesn't happen often but when the account is frozen (again) I want a real live person to tell me why ASAP

someone mentioned Amazon Payments which might be a great alternative since everyone's heard of Amazon and Amazon's fees are the exact same as Paypal's fees, 0 to $3,000.00 USD = 2.9% + $0.30 USD per transaction

I'll check out their API and see if we can use it.

Re:What in the hell are you talking about?

[DogDude]

1/2: Not true at all. I use Miva Merchant (a popular shopping cart), and there are dozens of payment providers that I can choose from.

3: What customers trust them? Stupid ones? I wouldn't give a credit card number to Pay Pal, and I don't know anyone who would. I don't understand where you're coming from on this one...

4. Merchant services deposit the money straight into your bank account. Using their debit card is just another way for them to siphon fees.

5. Funds shouldn't be frozen in the first place.

No real business should ever use Pay Pal. Get a merchant services account like a real business.

wirecard

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.mywirecard.com/en/Home.html

Re:Visa Gift Cards

[Exp315]

These gift cards are widely available for purchase everywhere, but there are many problems with them:

1. Fee to buy (usually about $3)
2. Balance is drawn down by "account maintenance" fees after 6 months and expires in about 18 months.
3. Restrictions on how it can be used for items such as restaurant bills (must allow 15% margin for tip?!!)
4. Can't be used in many places that a real Visa can be used

I can't see any good use for them. You'd be wasting your money for small online purchases.

baring prior agreements or notices to the contrary

[way2trivial]

http://www.ustreas.gov/education/faq/currency/legal-tender.shtml

Q? I thought that United States currency was legal tender for all debts. Some businesses or governmental agencies say that they will only accept checks, money orders or credit cards as payment, and others will only accept currency notes in denominations of $20 or smaller. Isn't this illegal?

  The pertinent portion of law that applies to your question is the Coinage Act of 1965, specifically Section 31 U.S.C. 5103, entitled "Legal tender," which states: "United States coins and currency (including Federal reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal reserve banks and national banks) are legal tender for all debts, public charges, taxes, and dues."

This statute means that all United States money as identified above are a valid and legal offer of payment for debts when tendered to a creditor. There is, however, no Federal statute mandating that a private business, a person or an organization must accept currency or coins as for payment for goods and/or services. Private businesses are free to develop their own policies on whether or not to accept cash unless there is a State law which says otherwise. For example, a bus line may prohibit payment of fares in pennies or dollar bills. In addition, movie theaters, convenience stores and gas stations may refuse to accept large denomination currency (usually notes above $20) as a matter of policy.

Re:baring prior agreements or notices to the contr

[Jarik C-Bol]

you pose a rather valid question. Now, i can understand some businesses 'requiring' bills smaller than 20, because they don't want to keep enough cash in the till to make change for several 100's or 50's, that way if they get robbed, they don't lose as much. however, most of these places *will* take a 100, it just takes 10 minutes for them to make the change because they have to get the manager, etc. Places that refuse cash on the other hand, trouble me.

Re:Look for an option from your credit card compan

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow. I've never been turned down for cash for a hotel room. Sometimes they get a little bit confused or reluctant, but they'll do it. Unless, maybe, you're staying places that are so fancy they see cash as something only the proles use.

Discover recurring payments on secure #'s

[Zen]

I use secure #'s from my Discover card for every purchase I make online that I can - I have however come across a few that won't accept Discover, and then I think twice before I purchase on a non-secure card. This feature is available on every Discover card of every persuasion and has been for a few years. It's not technically one time use. My understanding of it from experience is that if the same company charges the exact same amount to your number at a common interval (1 month, etc), then the charge will be accepted. It has worked for me before - I believe with Tivo. However, many times companies will process the first payment themselves, and subsequent recurring payments will go through a clearinghouse. The different payment info is enough to get the payment denied, which can be both good and bad depending on if you really wanted to setup a recurring payment.

I used to have a Visa credit card from MBNA and they offered secure numbers as well. They probably still do, but check into it before making the plunge. Unfortunately I got rid of MBNA and now just use Chase, and they do not offer secure credit numbers, so I have no backup if Discover isn't accepted. Maybe they paid too much for Bank One and Bear Stearns.

Re:Discover recurring payments on secure #'s

[Mattpw]

I am curious, what sort of authentication is required on their websites to generate the numbers?

Re:Look for an option from your credit card compan

[Anonymous Coward]

You can also write a check on a pig, and tender it, and there is precedent that you can then consider your debt paid in full.

Re:Look for an option from your credit card compan

[Skewray]

And I can vouch for Bank of America's ShopSafe. Have used it for years without a hiccup. Discover Card's equivalent seems a bit harder to navigate for some reason.

I've been using Discovercard's Deskshop for years to create single-use numbers. I've never had a problem.

Re:Look for an option from your credit card compan

[egcagrac0]

Running that pig through the MICR code reader is a bitch though, and the routing number doesn't always scan.

GPal.net

[Anonymous Coward]

Gpal.net is a paypal alternative. Actually you don't ever need a credit card for credit history. A credit score is actually an indication of how good of a borrower you are, not necessarily what you can afford. Hence the state of the economy in the US right now. I also have had good experiences with ShopSafe from Bank of America.

Good alternative

[guitar486]

http://www.merchantinc.com/

Wirecard

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.wirecard.com/wirecard Love it.

Re:Look for an option from your credit card compan

[yottabit42]

I've been using BOA ShopSafe for many years... long before BOA bought MBNA America which is who started the service originally. You can set expiration dates as short as 2 months. I've used it numerous times for shady websites.

Epassporte

[dindi]

Epassporte gives you an ATM card and a Virtual card (not many though, only one). They allow different deposit methods, and are accepted pretty much everywhere.

Hope this helps

Re:Look for an option from your credit card compan

[0100010001010011]

Discover also has them, although they're not as cool as CitiBank's.

No end date, no limit and the expiration is the same as your normal credit card.

The ONE advantage they have over Citi is that the number generated doesn't have any spaces in it so it's a straight copy paste job.

I went through the trouble of making 2 shortcuts so I don't have to sign in through the website just to launch a separate window:

CitiCards:
javascript:window.open('https://www.accountonline.com/Athena/PageServlet/thinclient.prod.xsl?loginlib=loginlib&issuerid=1&brand=Citi',"_blank","resizable","scrollbars=no");void 0

Discover:
javascript:window.open('https://deskshop.discovercard.com/thincard/thinclient.html',%22_blank%22,%22resizable,scrollbars=no%22);void%200

Re:Look for an option from your credit card compan

[no-body]

Citibank is a goner for me - despite their virtual number thingie which is great.

They changed their game plan - either take it or loose your account.
I had cash reward cards and they dropped the % of rewards and other rules to my disadvantage.
You will get a new card, your current card will no longer be valid was one of their writings, if you don't use your new card, your accounts will be closed...

So - what happened is that the new cards were issued, accounts transferred but cards were in the mail and could not get activated.
Effect was virtual number generation failed, I am on an internet purchase, PayPal would take up to 3 days to verify a new CC - could not complete transaction.

Citi customer service (bad connection, probably far away...) hung up 3 x until I was able to find out why it does no longer work.

Background for this changeover is probably the new rules coming out against abusive CC bank behavior cutting into profits and to keep up their C?O bonanza payments, they will use new tricks to milk a lot of people even more: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704895004575395823497473064.html?mod=WSJ_hpp_MIDDLENexttoWhatsNewsForth

Citibank

[RKBA]

Citibank still has virtual credit card numbers (one time use for a single merchant with user selectable maximum charge and expiration date). You can generate using one of their websites, or (if you use Windows) you can run a small application that lets you generate them without visiting a web browser.

Re:Look for an option from your credit card compan

[Anonymous Coward]

For the specific example of a hotel room, they simply won't let you stay unless you have a credit card.

Re:Look for an option from your credit card compan

[mysidia]

That's neat. I've not actually used ShopSafe.

Citibank's VANs by default expire in 1 month, can only be used by one merchant; dollar amount is unlimited by default.

And you can also use the webui to "close" any of the active VANs whenever you are ready to do so.

When generating a number you can pick 'advanced options' at the last step before generating, to select number of months (up to 12) and a dollar limit.

If you used advance options, you can also increase time/dollar limits later.

Possible online fraud attack with virtual numbers?

[Mattpw]

I am curious, some people above have mentioned that their online bank account allows them to instantly generate virtual credit card numbers. I am wondering with the trojans like Zeus etc which actively go after online accounts instead of the trojan trying to authenticate an outgoing transfer to a local mule account they could or are switching tactics and going after banks these virtual number generating accounts and then sucking the money out of the accounts from anywhere through the virtual card number charges. I know with the existing schemes they have to bounce the outgoing cash off a local mule and pay him 10% before sending it out overseas but a credit card transaction would rarely be flagged as fraudulent and if the trojan owns the browser like zeus does the account holder wouldnt even know their account was being drained. Can anyone explain why this isnt feasible? Id like some of the above mentioned account holders to explain what authentication is required by the bank websites to generate the card numbers?

Re:baring prior agreements or notices to the contr

[Raenex]

The way I read that is they can refuse to sell or offer services for cash, but once a debt has been created they have to accept cash. For example, if you try to buy a movie ticket with all pennies, they can refuse you, but if you've stayed at a hotel, and they are now demanding payment, it's a legal debt, so they must accept cash. I don't see how their policy can trump federal law.

Re:Look for an option from your credit card compan

[Machtyn]

The nice thing about the Citicard VANs is that they have a nice little application that integrates with Firefox and IE to auto-fill the fields for you. I've found that functionality to be spotty, but at least I can drag and drop the numbers into the right place.

how such a patent could ever be granted?

[Anonymous Coward]

how is this different from issuing a normal credit card (skipping some steps)?

How to create a Paypal Virtual Card manually

[Anonymous Coward]

Only the Paypal plugin for Mozilla Firefox was disabled. You have to create a new virtual credit card manually. Follow these steps below to create a Single Use or Multiple Use virtual credit card:

1) Login to Paypal.com
2) Goto "My Account" tab
3) Click "Paypal Plug-In" (mid-right side of page)
4) Select "Secure Cards" (second option down on left side of page)
5) Select "Generate a New Card" (top center of credit card table)

Now you can create a new virtual credit card. You can have up to 10 active at a time.

Cheers.

Just don't buy anything you might want to return

[DJ Wipeout]

A couple of years ago I bought some emerald earrings from a jeweler in NY that used Amazon. They had really good prices, but I was a little worried, so I used a Citibank virtual credit card number. When I received the earrings, they were pretty crappy, so I tried to return them. This process took over a month. When the jeweler tried to refund my money back onto the card, they couldn't, because the card had expired. (I had set it up to expire in a month) Citibank said there was nothing they could do, so the jeweler ended up mailing me a check. Lesson? Either get a number that lasts longer than a month so you can possibly return stuff, thereby exposing that CC number for longer than necessary, or make sure you don't buy anything with them you might want to return. :P

And I have no idea if things purchased with virtual credit card numbers are covered by extended warranties touted by the credit card companies....

How to manually create a Paypal Virtual Card

[Anonymous Coward]

Only the Paypal plug-in for Mozilla Firefox was disabled. You have to create a new virtual credit card manually. Follow these steps below to create a Single Use or Multiple use virtual credit card:

1) Log in to Paypal.com
2) Go to "My Account tab
3) Click "Paypal Plug-In" (mid-right of page)
4) Select "Secure Cards" (second option down on the left side of the page)
5) Select "Generate a New Card" (top center of the credit card list)

Now you can create a new virtual credit card. You can have up to 10 active at a time.

Cheers.

They already got your card number + authorization

[beanluc]

That's how many hotels do it.

And, once they charge your card, there's no outstanding debt.

At that point, can you legally make somebody take your tender then? And credit it back to your charge card?

Re:Dumpster behind Olive Garden, Penny's, near mal

[Anonymous Coward]

oooo... modded down! Some moderators have no sense of humor.

Not true

[vanyel]

I just logged into my account and went to the secure cards section and I still had the option to generate a new card. Maybe the actual browser plugin was killed (I don't use that), but the virtual cards are still there.

Re:baring prior agreements or notices to the contr

[Anonymous Coward]

The key word here is "debts", implying that in upfront exchanges, businesses can accept or deny any form of payment. (ie. vending machines)

3V

[frisket]

Here (Ireland) there is a service operated by 3V which I have used without problems. It appears you have to have a physical address within the state, though, which is probably the same as the restrictions applied by US issuers.

Re:Look for an option from your credit card compan

[yottabit42]

Sounds very similar to the BOA offering then. I'd imagine they're about identical.

Re:Look for an option from your credit card compan

[Kelbear]

Precisely! This sort of thing is why I get so damn nervous when somebody takes my credit card. Waiters charging a card at the back, or reception making a photocopy of my card in the backroom. Credit cards should at least have pin numbers. Even for online purchases. It wouldn't be too much trouble for them to place a hold on my card, then for me to go release payment after logging into my credit card account. When they receive the payment, then they ship the product/start their service.

Far far far superior to only needing to read the numbers off the front, and the last 3 off the back. Weak security is at least a step up from no security at all.

http://it.slashdot.org/story/10/07/09/1232214/Hotels-Lead-the-Industry-In-Credit-Card-Theft?from=rss

PRIOR AGREEMENT

[way2trivial]

if at a hotel the registration restricts the forms of payment accepted- then it was a prior notice
(read your reg card) or if there is a sign on the wall

when you checked in, you agreed to the terms.
check out time, rate, # of people.. etc..
if the terms included a list of acceptable payments, you are stuck with it.

Re:PRIOR AGREEMENT

[Raenex]

Contracts can come into conflict with federal law. If they don't have your credit card when payment is due, and you refuse to give them one, you owe a debt. If they want to collect, federal law says that cash is legal tender.

Happy

[Acecoolco]

I am happy its gone! I tried the plugin, and the plugin actually snoops around, downloading every website that is linked to the page you are on. It also caused browser freezing for a few seconds at a time. Once uninstalled, everything was back to normal.

WHAT?!

[John Pfeiffer]

What the hell?! When did this happen? I _RELY_ on the virtual debit card service when buying from places like Amazon, as well as all my electronic component suppliers! Hell, I just made purchases on Friday! D:

Uhh, wait a second... I just checked and I can still generate cards, so I don't know what the OP is talking about.

Re:Look for an option from your credit card compan

[Anonymous Coward]

Cash.... unless you are buying an Iphone at an Apple store AND you have an existing account. They won't let you use Cash. If you are a new customer they will, but not if you are an existing customer.

And

[mahadiga]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controlled_payment_number

Re:Look for an option from your credit card compan

[mysidia]

The trouble with cash is you have to carry a lot of it with you, if you plan to do that, and you have to deal with things like change.

Cash is also easily stolen. Otherwise we wouldn't be wanting physical CCs in the first place.

Re:baring prior agreements or notices to the contr

[mysidia]

Payment in exchange for goods and services are not payment of debts. Your bus fare is paid in advance, not after the debt is incurred.

Refusing to accept coins is different from trying to refuse to accept any form of cash, by the way.

Re:Look for an option from your credit card compan

[Johnhds]

Yes...the Citi Virtual Card is a great choice for on-line purchases and I have been using it for years. Makes on-line buying safe and secure.

Re:Look for an option from your credit card compan

[tamboril]

I use Discover's Secure Online Account Numbers all over the place. They are only good for the first merchant to charge them, and that merchant can charge indefinitely. You can cancel a single number any time. Charges go to your regular Discover account.

I found them to be a problem on Amazon, because regular purchases come from a "different" merchant than the one that MP3 downloads do and will get declined. So I just have two virtual cards on file and choose the appropriate one.

The Paypal Version sucked in the end...

[linuxrunner]

I loved the service and used it a lot, but the problem was, in the end, every time I went to use it, they would put my order on hold, call me and leave a message and force me to call them back to be sure it wasn't a fraudulent charge. Really puts a damper on using it when you know they're going to call you every time.

I even asked them, why they bother to call me, and they said they have to do it for everyone. I can only imagine a stupid policy like that was cost prohibitive.