Firefox 4 Will Be One Generation Ahead

An anonymous reader writes "Mozilla's Chris Blizzard talks about the rising competition by Google Chrome, the evolution of the web platform and the prospects for WebM. He also promises that Firefox 4 will be 'one generation ahead' of other browsers in relation to Javascript speed."

Comments

...And one generation behind on HTML5

[elrous0]

Look, I *love* Firefox. I use it pretty much exclusively myself. Nothing can touch add-ons like NoScript, AdBlock, etc. (and most of my add-ons and their associated functionality can't be found on Chrome, Opera, etc.). But if they think that Google, who provides about 85% of Mozilla's total revenue, is going to sit back and let them take the technical lead over Chrome, they're nuts. And speed has always been one of Chrome's few positive qualities over Firefox.

Not only that, but Mozilla can't afford to license h264. And that already puts them behind on HTML5. I am hoping that either html5 never catches on, the other browsers all agree to an open format (like WebM), or there is some kind of flash-player type add-on made for Firefox to support h264. But without one of those, Firefox is (sadly) already in a rough spot for the next gen.

And I say all that as someone who hates the idea of giving up my Firefox and having to get my browser from an increasingly-evil Google, an already evil Microsoft, or a closed-off Opera. If I wanted evil and closed, I would have bought an iPad, not a netbook.

Re:...And one generation behind on HTML5

[Ethanol-fueled]

From the summary:

He also promises that Firefox 4 will be "one generation ahead" of other browsers in relation to Javascript speed."

The browser vendors' fetishistic obsession with Javascript speed is most irritating.

Re:...And one generation behind on HTML5

[betterunixthanunix]

if they think that Google, who provides about 85% of Mozilla's total revenue, is going to sit back and let them take the technical lead over Chrome, they're nuts.

Except that Google benefits from faster Javascript engines in any browser, not just Chrome. Firefox is a popular browser, and if Firefox can execute Javascript faster, that means that Google's web apps (which I am just going to guess account for more revenue than Chrome) will perform better. It also means that Google could potentially do more, i.e. have heavier Javascript programs, without worrying that people are going to get annoyed at how slow their applications are. How does Google lose here?

Re:...And one generation behind on HTML5

[garcia]

The browser vendors' fetishistic obsession with Javascript speed is most irritating.

I have mod points but I decided to respond instead... I agree with you, it is irritating especially when the browser's speeds themselves are miserable. Yay great, Chrome loads faster but I have random issues with plugins which affect my work (one of the plugins is disabling me from reading GMail messages) and AdBlock still doesn't work nearly as well as it does on Firefox for the sites I use most often.

I wish Firefox would stop trying to compete in Javascript and go back to one of the biggest reasons they started the project: speed of the browser itself. That means it should open instantaneously and have low overhead--even with the usual plugins installed (AdBlock, NoScript, etc).

Re:...And one generation behind on HTML5

[Haedrian]

That's because most 'web applications' (such as google docs) or stuff like Facebook is chock full of Javascript.

In ye olde days when java script was just used to pull up a popup or block your right clicks it wasn't so important, but nowadays most popular sites are full of it. Whenever you need 'dynamic' content on a web page - that's Javascript.

Even /. by the way.

Re:...And one generation behind on HTML5

[Mr. Spontaneous]

Show me where h264 is a requirement in the HTML5 spec.

kthx.

Re:...And one generation behind on HTML5

[pushing-robot]

Nothing can touch add-ons like NoScript, AdBlock, etc.

You mean like Adblock for Chrome and NotScripts for Chrome?

Chrome and Safari got a nice extension makeover recently that puts them on par with Firefox IMHO.

Re:...And one generation behind on HTML5

[Anonymous Coward]

That should be modded up. I've about had it with lag and eventual shutdown of FF. After using for a few days with only a few windows open, FF eventually becomes so unresponsive that I've got to restart it. I mean, click a link and it's takes 4-5 seconds for FF to even start to do anything. Pages load fast, but then the cycle starts again. As an early adopter of FF, I'm now considering a switch to Chrome. Ugh.

Re:...And one generation behind on HTML5

[sd.fhasldff]

h264 isn't going to be a practical problem for the vast majority of users, since Firefox can just use a system codec (non-Windows-users would have to make sure they have one, of course).

As for JS speed, Mozilla are very ardent in their speed claims, so it's hard not to believe they have something to back it up. It's difficult for users and external testers to figure out exactly how fast they are, despite being open source, because the Moz team is pursuing several parallel tracks to increase JS speed. There's "fat-val", "tracer JIT" and "method JIT". Each is currently significantly faster than the "normal" versions, but there hasn't been any public testing on a build that combines all three.

Mozilla claim they'll be faster than everyone else and while they may be scuppered by new advances from Google and Opera, it seems reasonable that they will at least be faster at launch than where everyone else is now. That alone would ensure "next-generation JS performance".

Where they trail Chrome is in "use speed". Chrome starts and shuts down a lot faster -- and I think that's going to be a problem for Firefox moving forward (more than it already is).

Re:...And one generation behind on HTML5

[drinkypoo]

H.264 will be solved on Firefox with a plugin whether it's official or not.

The real claim I have a problem with is is this "generation ahead" nonsense. How are they magically going to go from a generation behind to a generation ahead? Are they planning to milk a unicorn and pour the results into the codebase? So far each and every Firefox claim of improved javascript has fallen short of the competition.

Re:...And one generation behind on HTML5

[elrous0]

Nowhere. But right now it's the most widely adopted and implemented (pretty much everyone but Firefox either does or is planning to support it). Until there is an alternative that all the major browsers support, Firefox is going to continue to lag behind. WebM is promising. But without MS onboard, it's going nowhere.

Re:...And one generation behind on HTML5

[maxwell demon]

Don't the extensions (at least the cross-platform ones) implement their functionality mostly in JavaScript? If so, then improving JavaScript speed would do very much to fulfil your wish.

Re:...And one generation behind on HTML5

[IANAAC]

Nowhere. But right now it's the most widely adopted and implemented

For what? Actual video content? I don't think so. Would some of us like to see it more popular than, say, Flash to serve up video? Sure. But that's not the way it is now.

To suggest it's the most adopted is wishful thinking.

Re:...And one generation behind on HTML5

[Anonymous Coward]

Show me where h264 is a requirement in the HTML5 spec.

kthx.

Show me where GIF, PNG, JPG, BMP and ICO are required for the IMG tag in the HTML 1/2/3/4/5 spec.

Now tell me what you'd think about browsing without support for these in anything, but lynx.

kthx.

Re:...And one generation behind on HTML5

[mini me]

Not yet. However, unlike previous HTML specifications, HTML5 is attempting to define which formats are required to be supported by media tags. Microsoft and Apple want it to be H.264. Mozilla says they won't support it leaving the specification at a standstill.

Re:...And one generation behind on HTML5

[TheLink]

> There's "fat-val", "tracer JIT" and "method JIT".

Just curious, given all these advances in JS speed, are there technical reasons why stuff like Python, Ruby and Perl aren't getting similar improvements in speed?

Re:...And one generation behind on HTML5

[diegocg]

Not just extensions, the Firefox UI is written in javascript.

Re:...And one generation behind on HTML5

[Fnkmaster]

Yes, yes, and double yes! Firefox *IS* faster than most other browsers in every part of browser performance that matters *except* Javascript speed. But yeah, browser load time and overhead, as well as initial rendering and scroll-rendering speed are all critical to the browser experience for me.

I have tried Chrome 3 times now and every time I give up on it - mostly because I find scrolling performance on complex HTML pages to be distractingly bad. Firefox does not have this problem - it is zippy and smooth, at least on modern Core 2 Duo or better hardware. I gather that for lower end hardware, Webkit seems to do better.

I know that on the 10% of websites with intensive Javascript code, Chrome will blow the pants off of Firefox right now, but this is not the primary use case of the web for me.

Re:...And one generation behind on HTML5

[TeXMaster]

Exactly. The main problem I have with Firefox is that by the time I've customized it to my liking, it's unusably slow.

Maybe you should consider a browser that doesn't need to be bogged down to death to be useable. One of the reasons why I use Opera, for example, it's precisely that it does all the stuff I want it to do without me needing to scrape around the web to get extensions that kill it.

Re:...And one generation behind on HTML5

[marsu_k]

Regarding the "awesome bar" (I really like the functionality, but loathe the name), the sqlite database can get fragmented over time. You might want to try this ever now and then. Can make a world of difference, especially with slower computers/disks.

Re:...And one generation behind on HTML5

[cyfer2000]

I hope you realized that the UI and extensions of firefox are written in Javascript, when you complain those speed issues, most of them are somewhat related with speed of javascript.

Re:...And one generation behind on HTML5

[Enderandrew]

Mozilla has different groups working on different projects. Firefox had some bloat and memory leak issues and even since then, they've worked hard to address those.

Firefox uses less memory than Chrome. It's UI will never be quite as fast because of XUL but it isn't like the only thing they are working on is JS.

And JS is important because so many web apps depend on it. I have to use IE at work, and Gmail is painfully slow in it.

Re:...And one generation behind on HTML5

[beelsebob]

I love that browser vendors are obsessed with javascript speed. The bottom line is that rich internet applications that don't use flash depend entirely on javascript being fast. The reason flash even got a foothold was because we had no alternative runtime because most implementations of javascript were abysmal. Javascript is important in html 5, deal with it.

Re:...And one generation behind on HTML5

[Qzukk]

The awesome bar is one of two things I miss after switching to Chrome. Chrome tries to pack too much into the URL dropdown (search history, suggestions, etc) without doing any of it well. For instance on Firefox, I can type Q[tab] and have my comments page up. sl[tab] is slashdot. c[tab] is my bank site. f[tab] is the firehose journal search I use. Just about any site I go to is four keystrokes max counting hitting enter to load the site. On chrome, I have to type sl[right arrow]/[down arrow][right arrow] to get to my comments page. Note that moving the hand between the arrow keys and the main keyboard adds extra effort. If I don't add the /, Chrome lists only list two options: slashdot.org and search google for slashdot.org.

The other thing is Nuke Anything, which I can't find anything like it for Chrome. Useful for removing that floating div blocking the bottom right corner of every slashdot comments page.

Re:...And one generation behind on HTML5

[thePowerOfGrayskull]

Still not quite up to par, as shown on the home page itself:

New in version 2.0: Ads are actually BLOCKED FROM DOWNLOADING now, instead of just being removed after the fact! Note that Chrome doesn't actually support this all the way, so a few resources might still load before AdBlock can get to them, in which case we'll remove those as usual.

Which means that while most content is blocked, some gets loaded -- and any content that gets loaded is great for those who like to aggregate your usage data across multiple sites.

Re:...And one generation behind on HTML5

[SimonTheSoundMan]

Mozilla are working hard with browser performance. From startup performance, I/O reduction to speed up some things, even a new caching system. I could name more, but you get the idea.

Re:...And one generation behind on HTML5

[Urza9814]

Yea, isn't the whole point behind Chrome that Google needed to improve Javascript speed and browser efficiency? I mean, they certainly aren't making money off it. Gaining information, maybe, but if _that_ was the goal, why open source it? My bet is they finally decided that they'd get more for their money by launching their own browser rather than spending that money on Mozilla. But still, improving browser speed is nothing but good for Google.

Re:...And one generation behind on HTML5

[slim]

Not yet. However, unlike previous HTML specifications, HTML5 is attempting to define which formats are required to be supported by media tags.

The HTML5 spec is done. Big players could not agree on a video codec, so the W3C regretfully had the standard leave the choice of codec as an implementation detail. Tsk.

Microsoft and Apple want it to be H.264. Mozilla says they won't support it leaving the specification at a standstill.

To paraphrase the other responder. "Mozilla, Opera and Google want it to be Theora. Apple and MS say they won't support it leaving the specification at a standstill."

Why are you furious at Mozilla for impeding progress, yet happy about Apple doing so?

Both parties are at deadlock. The difference is that Mozilla's position comes from a pragmatic desire to keep the Web open. (And Apple's from a pragmatic desire to profit from their software patent licensing).

Re:...And one generation behind on HTML5

[Maskull]

Not just the UI (and extensions), but much of FF internals, too. Firefox is essentially a collection of libraries, written in C++, tied together with a lot of Javascript.

Re:...And one generation behind on HTML5

[A Big Gnu Thrush]

Yeah, but if they fixed it, what would we bitch about? Slashdot produces crap HTML and JavaScript to engender sophisticated discussion about web standards and coding practices. Also, the developers are not beaten with enough frequency or severity.

Re:...And one generation behind on HTML5

[smash]

With the increasing prevelance of web-apps, I'd argue that Javascript performance is critical.

I've not experienced any slow scrolling problems in chrome, used it on everything from a core2 1.8 duo mac mini, an old pentium D 930 win7 box, and a variety of Core2/i5/i7 laptops...

Re:...And one generation behind on HTML5

[Thinboy00]

Also, the developers are not beaten with enough frequency or severity.

+1 Cigar.

Re:...And one generation behind on HTML5

[morgan_greywolf]

Yep. JavaScript :: Firefox as Lisp :: Emacs

Re:...And one generation behind on HTML5

[MrFurious5150]

where the predominant position is that web developers aren't 'real' developers and that web development is 'easy'

Dude, don't flame me for this, but the only people I ever hear say this are web developers. This is how this usually goes:

Me: So what are you working on?

Them: Doing a project for work. ASP is a PITA.

Me: Ah, cool. How long have you been doing web development?

Them: GAH! I AM A PROGRAMMER!!!

This has happened more than once. Look, I've worked with everything from assembly language to BASIC to C to C++. Lately I've been working in C#. They're all just tools, and what tool you're currently working with has no bearing on your worth or intelligence. Many C++ coders I've met can't code for shit, and many web developers I've met are freakin' geniuses.

Re:...And one generation behind on HTML5

[Bert64]

The trouble is, a small lightweight browser isn't terribly useful for most people...
Most people will need additional features, different people will need different features, and you can either build these features in (meaning bloat as there will be features there you never use and its unlikely the default set of features would suit every niche) or you make the base extensible so people can install the extensions they need.

Re:...And one generation behind on HTML5

[Requiem18th]

He said usable, as defined by his standards not yours.

Re:...And one generation behind on HTML5

[darrylo]

but one advantage is that if you close a tab, the memory it is consuming is released.

That's the one big reason why I'm still using chrome. As attractive as FF is, some extension or something eats and eats and eats memory, and the only way to reclaim it is via a full restart. With chrome, you just kill the offending tab. I want to continue using FF, but the memory growth is driving me crazy.

I hear the occasional rumor that some upcoming FF release will support chrome-like multiprocess handling, but I'll believe it when I see it.

Re:...And one generation behind on HTML5

[aztracker1]

However, what one person considers an absolutely needed piece of functionality another will find useless... I find that greasemonkey, and firebug + yslow are invaluable. I don't really get that with Opera... also, Opera has had a few UI annoyances that really irked me in the past... The 10.x versions not so much though... I do have to test in Safari, Opera, Chrome, Firefox and IE6-8 currently, but my main browser for dev at work is Firefox. I use IE at work (because it's friendlier with the firewall), and Firefox at home... I've used Opera and Chrome as my main browser each for two weeks about once a year, but keep going back to Firefox.

Re:...And one generation behind on HTML5

[msclrhd]

In the old days, JavaScript was interpreted. This means that the JavaScript engine is evaluating the program as it runs, instead of the CPU evaluating the program. This is what the Firefox SpiderMonkey engine does and it is slow.

When Chrome was released and there was a push to make things faster, Mozilla wrote an engine called TraceMonkey. This engine supports tracing jit, which is to say that the engine watches what javascript code gets executed (the tracing part) and uses that to produce optimised code that the CPU will execute (the jit -- or just-in-time compilation -- part).

Chrome's V8 engine, Apple's Nitro engine and others use what is called method jit. This means that the javascript code for a method (function) is compiled to code the CPU can execute when that method is called.

Mozilla are currently working on a similar method jit engine called JaegerMonkey. This engine is taking the nitro assembler (the code that generates the CPU instructions) and writing everything else on top of this. In addition, they are also taking the Yarr! regular expression engine that IIR, Chrome is using to speed up their regular expression handling.

Mozilla are looking to blend the method jit and tracing jit together -- hence the "one generation ahead" comment.

Mozilla are also optimising various javascript calls (a contrived example would be replacing calls to Math.sin with the sin CPU instruction) to provide "fast paths" that speed up code that uses those calls.

http://arewefastyet.com/ shows the performance of these over time.

In Before...

[Kc_spot]

Flamewar

One generation ahead?

[hcs_$reboot]

FF4 will be one generation ahead in November (according to Wikipedia). Aren't 3 months enough for the competition to catch up?

But...

[dispatch]

...my company insists on remaining one generation behind!

Re:But...

[Robert Zenz]

He said one generation...not a freaking century.

Re:Javascript is dead

[armanox]

Java and Javascript are related in name only. Whatever convoluted scheme Oracle comes up with for Java has no bearing on Javascript.

Do these guy get paid?

[Spy Handler]

"Mozilla's Chris Blizzard talks about...."

Do these guys get paid a salary? Or do they work for free?

Re:Do these guy get paid?

[multipartmixed]

Christopher Blizzard is an Open Source Evangelist working for the Mozilla Corporation and a long-time contributor to Open Source projects, notably with Mozilla, Red Hat, and One Laptop Per Child.

Years Behind

[Carebears]

Our work computers still use IE6, I however prefer Chrome. Cause I have to have my butterflies theme!

Re:Javascript is dead

[The MAZZTer]

Sun marketing is rumored to have been responsible for the similar names (they wanted JavaScript to leech off of Java's success) but they have nothing in common with each other.

Re:Javascript is dead

[Mr. Spontaneous]

How about ECMAScript? ;-)

Re:GPU Graphics Acceleration

[VGPowerlord]

If Firefox for doesn't have GPU graphics acceleration it will be a generation behind Microsoft Internet Explorer.

All the Javascript speed in the world won't make up for last generation webpage rendering that nails the CPU while the GPU sits idle.

RTFA

Specifically:

derStandard.at: Firefox 4 is going to use hardware acceleration through Direct2D and DirectWrite on Windows, are similar things coming up for Linux and Mac OS X?

Chris Blizzard: Within what's provided: Yes. We're trying to give the best experience possible on each platform. So for Windows Vista and 7 we see huge improvements when doing certain graphically intensive stuff. On OS X for example we have support for OpenGL for doing compositing, on Linux we do the same. But generally the Windows APIs that we have are better and more rich than what we have on other platforms. To give you an example: On Linux Cairo and Pixman were supposed to be fast, but unfortunately the underlying infrastructure never really got fast. On OS X we are actually pretty fast but Direct2D gives the performance advantage to Windows at the moment.

Re:Javascript is dead

[Arancaytar]

or patent eclipsed ?

Man, don't get me started on Eclipse. :P

Re:What would be better than faster JavaScript...

[sd.fhasldff]

This is probably due to sqlite and a severely fragmented / huge / whatever history+bookmarks.

Try a clean profile. If that does the trick, try backing them up and importing in a clean profile. Probably "prune" them a bit while you're at it.

Um, I Think You Mean Videos in That Format

[eldavojohn]

Nowhere. But right now it's the most widely adopted and implemented (pretty much everyone but Firefox either does or is planning to support it).

Huh, that's really confusing. Because according to Wikipedia, Ogg Theora looks more supported in browsers than H.264. Perhaps you meant that there are more videos online in H.264 than Ogg Theora -- that goes without dispute.

On top of that, IE's H.264 is only implemented so far in a nightly build and not released.

But, come on, big players like Apple and Google have been pushing HTML 5 and if Ogg Theora gets accepted in the HTML 5 spec and H.264 doesn't ... well, guess how long people would use IE if it suddenly didn't work with YouTube and currently Firefox, Chrome and Opera do support Ogg Theora. You want to see people migrate from IE to Chrome? Put up a big tutorial to install and use Chrome right in the little YouTube window for every video that won't load because it's in Ogg Theora.

Someone's going to lose users and I don't think it'll be Google.

Re:SQLite database vacuum

[Sami Lehtinen]

There are a few alternatives to yet another plugin:
1) You can use standalone SQLite3 installation to open bases and vacuum those.
2) Use Python script for vacuuming.
3) You can use Error Console with following string to vacuum bases:
Components.classes["@mozilla.org/browser/nav-history-service;1"].getService(Components.interfaces.nsPIPlacesDatabase).DBConnection.executeSimpleSQL("VACUUM");
I personally prefer last option, beacuse no additional software is required.

Re:whoop-de-doo

[multipartmixed]

> Saying you're the fastest at running JavaScript is like celebrating that you came in 1st place in the Special Olympics.

No, it's more like saying you came in first in one event in a triathlon.

Doesn't mean you won, doesn't even mean you finished mid-pack. But it does mean you're really good at at least one thing, meaning maybe you can concentrate a bit more on the others for the next event.

Re:SQLite database vacuum

[jameson71]

Yeah, but it would be nice if a *web browser* didn't require DBA level maintenance to keep it working right.

Re:GPU Graphics Acceleration

[Abcd1234]

If they use platform specific APIs to accelerate stuff, WHY THE HELL don't they use platform specific APIs for rendering video?

Because they're ideological blowhards who are more interested in pushing an agenda than doing what the users actually want.