Firefox 4 Will Be One Generation Ahead

An anonymous reader writes "Mozilla's Chris Blizzard talks about the rising competition by Google Chrome, the evolution of the web platform and the prospects for WebM. He also promises that Firefox 4 will be 'one generation ahead' of other browsers in relation to Javascript speed."

Comments

...And one generation behind on HTML5

[elrous0]

Look, I *love* Firefox. I use it pretty much exclusively myself. Nothing can touch add-ons like NoScript, AdBlock, etc. (and most of my add-ons and their associated functionality can't be found on Chrome, Opera, etc.). But if they think that Google, who provides about 85% of Mozilla's total revenue, is going to sit back and let them take the technical lead over Chrome, they're nuts. And speed has always been one of Chrome's few positive qualities over Firefox.

Not only that, but Mozilla can't afford to license h264. And that already puts them behind on HTML5. I am hoping that either html5 never catches on, the other browsers all agree to an open format (like WebM), or there is some kind of flash-player type add-on made for Firefox to support h264. But without one of those, Firefox is (sadly) already in a rough spot for the next gen.

And I say all that as someone who hates the idea of giving up my Firefox and having to get my browser from an increasingly-evil Google, an already evil Microsoft, or a closed-off Opera. If I wanted evil and closed, I would have bought an iPad, not a netbook.

Re:...And one generation behind on HTML5

[Ethanol-fueled]

From the summary:

He also promises that Firefox 4 will be "one generation ahead" of other browsers in relation to Javascript speed."

The browser vendors' fetishistic obsession with Javascript speed is most irritating.

Re:...And one generation behind on HTML5

[betterunixthanunix]

if they think that Google, who provides about 85% of Mozilla's total revenue, is going to sit back and let them take the technical lead over Chrome, they're nuts.

Except that Google benefits from faster Javascript engines in any browser, not just Chrome. Firefox is a popular browser, and if Firefox can execute Javascript faster, that means that Google's web apps (which I am just going to guess account for more revenue than Chrome) will perform better. It also means that Google could potentially do more, i.e. have heavier Javascript programs, without worrying that people are going to get annoyed at how slow their applications are. How does Google lose here?

Re:...And one generation behind on HTML5

[garcia]

The browser vendors' fetishistic obsession with Javascript speed is most irritating.

I have mod points but I decided to respond instead... I agree with you, it is irritating especially when the browser's speeds themselves are miserable. Yay great, Chrome loads faster but I have random issues with plugins which affect my work (one of the plugins is disabling me from reading GMail messages) and AdBlock still doesn't work nearly as well as it does on Firefox for the sites I use most often.

I wish Firefox would stop trying to compete in Javascript and go back to one of the biggest reasons they started the project: speed of the browser itself. That means it should open instantaneously and have low overhead--even with the usual plugins installed (AdBlock, NoScript, etc).

Re:...And one generation behind on HTML5

[Haedrian]

That's because most 'web applications' (such as google docs) or stuff like Facebook is chock full of Javascript.

In ye olde days when java script was just used to pull up a popup or block your right clicks it wasn't so important, but nowadays most popular sites are full of it. Whenever you need 'dynamic' content on a web page - that's Javascript.

Even /. by the way.

Re:...And one generation behind on HTML5

[Mr. Spontaneous]

Show me where h264 is a requirement in the HTML5 spec.

kthx.

Re:...And one generation behind on HTML5

[pushing-robot]

Nothing can touch add-ons like NoScript, AdBlock, etc.

You mean like Adblock for Chrome and NotScripts for Chrome?

Chrome and Safari got a nice extension makeover recently that puts them on par with Firefox IMHO.

Re:...And one generation behind on HTML5

[elrous0]

Nowhere. But right now it's the most widely adopted and implemented (pretty much everyone but Firefox either does or is planning to support it). Until there is an alternative that all the major browsers support, Firefox is going to continue to lag behind. WebM is promising. But without MS onboard, it's going nowhere.

Re:...And one generation behind on HTML5

[maxwell demon]

Don't the extensions (at least the cross-platform ones) implement their functionality mostly in JavaScript? If so, then improving JavaScript speed would do very much to fulfil your wish.

Re:...And one generation behind on HTML5

[Anonymous Coward]

Show me where h264 is a requirement in the HTML5 spec.

kthx.

Show me where GIF, PNG, JPG, BMP and ICO are required for the IMG tag in the HTML 1/2/3/4/5 spec.

Now tell me what you'd think about browsing without support for these in anything, but lynx.

kthx.

Re:...And one generation behind on HTML5

[diegocg]

Not just extensions, the Firefox UI is written in javascript.

Re:...And one generation behind on HTML5

[Fnkmaster]

Yes, yes, and double yes! Firefox *IS* faster than most other browsers in every part of browser performance that matters *except* Javascript speed. But yeah, browser load time and overhead, as well as initial rendering and scroll-rendering speed are all critical to the browser experience for me.

I have tried Chrome 3 times now and every time I give up on it - mostly because I find scrolling performance on complex HTML pages to be distractingly bad. Firefox does not have this problem - it is zippy and smooth, at least on modern Core 2 Duo or better hardware. I gather that for lower end hardware, Webkit seems to do better.

I know that on the 10% of websites with intensive Javascript code, Chrome will blow the pants off of Firefox right now, but this is not the primary use case of the web for me.

Re:...And one generation behind on HTML5

[TeXMaster]

Exactly. The main problem I have with Firefox is that by the time I've customized it to my liking, it's unusably slow.

Maybe you should consider a browser that doesn't need to be bogged down to death to be useable. One of the reasons why I use Opera, for example, it's precisely that it does all the stuff I want it to do without me needing to scrape around the web to get extensions that kill it.

Re:...And one generation behind on HTML5

[marsu_k]

Regarding the "awesome bar" (I really like the functionality, but loathe the name), the sqlite database can get fragmented over time. You might want to try this ever now and then. Can make a world of difference, especially with slower computers/disks.

Re:...And one generation behind on HTML5

[Enderandrew]

Mozilla has different groups working on different projects. Firefox had some bloat and memory leak issues and even since then, they've worked hard to address those.

Firefox uses less memory than Chrome. It's UI will never be quite as fast because of XUL but it isn't like the only thing they are working on is JS.

And JS is important because so many web apps depend on it. I have to use IE at work, and Gmail is painfully slow in it.

Re:...And one generation behind on HTML5

[beelsebob]

I love that browser vendors are obsessed with javascript speed. The bottom line is that rich internet applications that don't use flash depend entirely on javascript being fast. The reason flash even got a foothold was because we had no alternative runtime because most implementations of javascript were abysmal. Javascript is important in html 5, deal with it.

Re:...And one generation behind on HTML5

[Qzukk]

The awesome bar is one of two things I miss after switching to Chrome. Chrome tries to pack too much into the URL dropdown (search history, suggestions, etc) without doing any of it well. For instance on Firefox, I can type Q[tab] and have my comments page up. sl[tab] is slashdot. c[tab] is my bank site. f[tab] is the firehose journal search I use. Just about any site I go to is four keystrokes max counting hitting enter to load the site. On chrome, I have to type sl[right arrow]/[down arrow][right arrow] to get to my comments page. Note that moving the hand between the arrow keys and the main keyboard adds extra effort. If I don't add the /, Chrome lists only list two options: slashdot.org and search google for slashdot.org.

The other thing is Nuke Anything, which I can't find anything like it for Chrome. Useful for removing that floating div blocking the bottom right corner of every slashdot comments page.

Re:...And one generation behind on HTML5

[thePowerOfGrayskull]

Still not quite up to par, as shown on the home page itself:

New in version 2.0: Ads are actually BLOCKED FROM DOWNLOADING now, instead of just being removed after the fact! Note that Chrome doesn't actually support this all the way, so a few resources might still load before AdBlock can get to them, in which case we'll remove those as usual.

Which means that while most content is blocked, some gets loaded -- and any content that gets loaded is great for those who like to aggregate your usage data across multiple sites.

Re:...And one generation behind on HTML5

[A Big Gnu Thrush]

Yeah, but if they fixed it, what would we bitch about? Slashdot produces crap HTML and JavaScript to engender sophisticated discussion about web standards and coding practices. Also, the developers are not beaten with enough frequency or severity.

Re:...And one generation behind on HTML5

[morgan_greywolf]

Yep. JavaScript :: Firefox as Lisp :: Emacs

Re:...And one generation behind on HTML5

[Bert64]

The trouble is, a small lightweight browser isn't terribly useful for most people...
Most people will need additional features, different people will need different features, and you can either build these features in (meaning bloat as there will be features there you never use and its unlikely the default set of features would suit every niche) or you make the base extensible so people can install the extensions they need.

Re:...And one generation behind on HTML5

[msclrhd]

In the old days, JavaScript was interpreted. This means that the JavaScript engine is evaluating the program as it runs, instead of the CPU evaluating the program. This is what the Firefox SpiderMonkey engine does and it is slow.

When Chrome was released and there was a push to make things faster, Mozilla wrote an engine called TraceMonkey. This engine supports tracing jit, which is to say that the engine watches what javascript code gets executed (the tracing part) and uses that to produce optimised code that the CPU will execute (the jit -- or just-in-time compilation -- part).

Chrome's V8 engine, Apple's Nitro engine and others use what is called method jit. This means that the javascript code for a method (function) is compiled to code the CPU can execute when that method is called.

Mozilla are currently working on a similar method jit engine called JaegerMonkey. This engine is taking the nitro assembler (the code that generates the CPU instructions) and writing everything else on top of this. In addition, they are also taking the Yarr! regular expression engine that IIR, Chrome is using to speed up their regular expression handling.

Mozilla are looking to blend the method jit and tracing jit together -- hence the "one generation ahead" comment.

Mozilla are also optimising various javascript calls (a contrived example would be replacing calls to Math.sin with the sin CPU instruction) to provide "fast paths" that speed up code that uses those calls.

http://arewefastyet.com/ shows the performance of these over time.

One generation ahead?

[hcs_$reboot]

FF4 will be one generation ahead in November (according to Wikipedia). Aren't 3 months enough for the competition to catch up?

But...

[dispatch]

...my company insists on remaining one generation behind!

Re:Javascript is dead

[armanox]

Java and Javascript are related in name only. Whatever convoluted scheme Oracle comes up with for Java has no bearing on Javascript.

Re:Javascript is dead

[The MAZZTer]

Sun marketing is rumored to have been responsible for the similar names (they wanted JavaScript to leech off of Java's success) but they have nothing in common with each other.

Re:Javascript is dead

[Mr. Spontaneous]

How about ECMAScript? ;-)

Re:GPU Graphics Acceleration

[VGPowerlord]

If Firefox for doesn't have GPU graphics acceleration it will be a generation behind Microsoft Internet Explorer.

All the Javascript speed in the world won't make up for last generation webpage rendering that nails the CPU while the GPU sits idle.

RTFA

Specifically:

derStandard.at: Firefox 4 is going to use hardware acceleration through Direct2D and DirectWrite on Windows, are similar things coming up for Linux and Mac OS X?

Chris Blizzard: Within what's provided: Yes. We're trying to give the best experience possible on each platform. So for Windows Vista and 7 we see huge improvements when doing certain graphically intensive stuff. On OS X for example we have support for OpenGL for doing compositing, on Linux we do the same. But generally the Windows APIs that we have are better and more rich than what we have on other platforms. To give you an example: On Linux Cairo and Pixman were supposed to be fast, but unfortunately the underlying infrastructure never really got fast. On OS X we are actually pretty fast but Direct2D gives the performance advantage to Windows at the moment.

Re:SQLite database vacuum

[Sami Lehtinen]

There are a few alternatives to yet another plugin:
1) You can use standalone SQLite3 installation to open bases and vacuum those.
2) Use Python script for vacuuming.
3) You can use Error Console with following string to vacuum bases:
Components.classes["@mozilla.org/browser/nav-history-service;1"].getService(Components.interfaces.nsPIPlacesDatabase).DBConnection.executeSimpleSQL("VACUUM");
I personally prefer last option, beacuse no additional software is required.

Re:Do these guy get paid?

[multipartmixed]

Christopher Blizzard is an Open Source Evangelist working for the Mozilla Corporation and a long-time contributor to Open Source projects, notably with Mozilla, Red Hat, and One Laptop Per Child.

Re:whoop-de-doo

[multipartmixed]

> Saying you're the fastest at running JavaScript is like celebrating that you came in 1st place in the Special Olympics.

No, it's more like saying you came in first in one event in a triathlon.

Doesn't mean you won, doesn't even mean you finished mid-pack. But it does mean you're really good at at least one thing, meaning maybe you can concentrate a bit more on the others for the next event.

Re:SQLite database vacuum

[jameson71]

Yeah, but it would be nice if a *web browser* didn't require DBA level maintenance to keep it working right.

Re:GPU Graphics Acceleration

[Abcd1234]

If they use platform specific APIs to accelerate stuff, WHY THE HELL don't they use platform specific APIs for rendering video?

Because they're ideological blowhards who are more interested in pushing an agenda than doing what the users actually want.