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Nokia Siemens Sued For Providing Monitoring Equipment To Iran
Just over a year ago, we found out that Nokia Siemens provided internet monitoring equipment to Iran. Now, reader Tootech sends in news that the company is being sued by an Iranian journalist who was captured with the help of that equipment. From El Reg:
"Isa Saharkhiz went into hiding following Iran's 2009 presidential elections, after publishing an article branding the Grand Ayatollah as a hypocrite who was primarily responsible for vote tallies widely regarded as being fraudulent. According to a complaint filed in federal court in Virginia, officials with the Ministry of Intelligence and Security in Iran tracked him down with the help of cellphone-monitoring devices and other eavesdropping gear provided by Nokia Siemens. 'Defendants knowingly and willingly delivered very capable and sophisticated equipment for unlawful intercepting, monitoring, and filtering of electronic communications ("Intelligence Solutions") to Iranian officials,' the complaint alleged. ... According to the document, Saharkhiz has been severely tortured since his arrest. He was held in solitary confinement for more than 80 days, and his ribs were broken in a struggle during his arrest. The complaint said it may be amended to add as many as 1,500 other political prisoners who are being held under similar circumstances. Additional defendants may also be added."
'Defendants knowingly and willingly delivered very capable and sophisticated equipment for unlawful intercepting, monitoring, and filtering of electronic communications ("Intelligence Solutions") to Iranian officials,' the complaint alleged.
Not to diminish in any way what this journalist has been through...unlawful where exactly? Iran or the US?
Sounds a bit like suing Heckler and Koch because they sold a gun to the government that provided it to the cop that used it to shoot you when the situation didn't warrant it.
People replying to my sig annoy me. That's why I change it all the time.
Until our governments and police forces stop using this invasive technology we can't expect others to do so.
Not that I'm defending Siemens and Nokia for providing spy equipment to a regime known to torture and kill its citizens for exercising political speech, but how exactly does a court in Virginia have jurisdiction over German and Swedish companies for civil damages allegedly sustained in Iran against an Iranian citizen?
Well, the Iranian government is not going to respect an American court decision. So, they're just trying to get headlines by suing a merchant. Was that equipment under embargo? But wait, an American embargo on Iran is bad because it hurts the common people more than the government. But if there was no embargo then how was it illegal to sell the equipment? I suppose Siemens should have recognized the Iranian government as "evil" and refused to do any business with them on a purely voluntary basis. But then that's racism against Muslims! Can anyone help? I'm so confused.
Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
Newsflash: similar equipment with similar capabilities exists TODAY in all Western countries. And it's used too! *gasp*
Just check ATT, ETSI documents, companies who manufacture the equipment, etc.
What's next? If you break the law, you can sue the providers of LI infrastructure because you got sued?
Once you have this infrastructure in place, there's no telling what it can be used against. It could be against people who want to kill thousands, or it could be against journalists wanting freedom.
cue the hundreds of slashdot geeks running in the defend Nokia because they make open source phones and QT...
"sophisticated equipment for unlawful intercepting, monitoring, and filtering of electronic communications "
Unlawful export, I would understand. That would probably violate some or other US law, if there were components, exported from the US used in those products.
But unlawful monitoring? What would the logic behind this be?
Unlawful export, I would understand. That would probably violate some or other US law, if there were components, exported from the US used in those products. But unlawful monitoring? What would the logic behind this be?
Well it makes no sense, but then again laws against devices to circumvent DCMA / copy protection devices make no sense either. It would be nice to think it works both ways, but I suspect that will not be the case...
Why can Nokia-Siemens sell such devices to European and American governments, but not to the Iranian government? I really don't see the difference. Western governments monitor all the time, much to the same ends as Iran does.
As far as I know, this "spying technology" is part of the 3GPP standards, and is installed in every country in the world, democratic or not. This guy should be suing the authorities in his country for using this equipment unlawfully. I guess this is not possible in Iran, but in any case, the company only sold standard telco equipment.
How many people are in US jails right now?
What country in the world has the biggest surveillance program know to man?
What country has been found spying on its own people?
In percents, what country has the largest amount of people in jail?
In what country has torture been declared perfectly legal?
What countries has been involved in torture in conjunction with electronic surveillance?
What country has sentenced people to death based on evesdropping?
Also ask yourself these questions:
Are americans much more probable to commit crimes than any other people, in the whole world?
Is it possible some people currently in US jails are innocent?
Is it totally impossible a part of these are in essence political prisoners?
HTTP/1.1 400
Don't be naive. Every single telecommunications vendor has tapping capability built into their equipment. Every western government *mandates* that this functionality is built in. It is not the equipment manufacturer who is morally wrong here. If you think it's wrong in Iran, it's wrong in the US or Europe too.
Totalitarian regimes are, by and large, quite benign. They only start getting heavy handed if you attack or subvert the power structures. In some countries it may well be the least worst option. While there was a compelling case for attacking Iran, making the same mistake over Iraq by sabre rattling, spreading hysterical libertarian arguments in the so-called "free press" in the West, and fermenting trouble on the ground can be counter productive.
A large part of Iraq's problems are recovering from historical problems such as their last democracy being undermined, a strong but understandable Islamic revolution, and last but not least developing their own self-confidence, understanding, and role in the world. I don't rate their President very highly but I get the sense he knows his limits. The ruling clerics have shown signs of subtle reasoning and an ability to negotiate. The people are intelligent enough.
Comic book villain leaders, Cold War style subversion, and dissidents are so yesterday because it heaps more problems on top of problems. If you want to turn the heat up into a shooting war or see a spectacular collapse that's probably the way to go but haven't we moved on from that? Shouldn't we be educating, supporting, and investing? It's not a soft option. Indeed, it can take a lot of work and patience. But where has force and impatience got us?
Are we gonna sue the gun makers next? Or maybe just the people that sell guns.
Just wondering what "not severely tortured" would feel like.
I feel for what he must have gone through, and hope he brings down an Evil Corporation, setting a precedent for all Evil Corporations to come- but I think he's barking up the wrong tree.
Just because wire-tapping functionality is built-in, doesn't mean you should use it to enforce a totalitarian regime. I think Nokia could easily argue that this was not the original intent and purpose of the equipment.
Just because a length of rope can be used for strangling someone, that doesn't mean that the rope manufacturer should be held liable. Just because you can break someone's skull with a hammer, that doesn't mean the manufacturer can be held responsible.
Only when the tool is *intended* for killing and hurting do we enter a grey area - If your neighbour shoots you in the knee cap, are you going to sue the gun manufacturer or the person that used the gun? Chances are, you'll still go after that sob of a neighbour that held the gun rather than after the people that built it.
Visit http://ringbreak.dnd.utwente.nl/~mrjb/growingbettersoftware to download your free copy of the book
At a rough guess some lawyers are going to make a load of money out of this. So regardless of the final outcome there will be some winners: That's the way it usually works.
while (true != false) process_more_stupid_code();
You are totally right: The LI (Lawful Intercept) interface is a required part of all relevant telecomms standards, i.e. you cannot manufacture/sell a GSM/3G/LTE setup which doesn't have that LI interface.
Terje
(Currently working on the architecture of a large national cell phone network.)
"almost all programming can be viewed as an exercise in caching"
Muslims can not be trusted by non-Muslims. Even the Qu'ran says so.
i think plenty of countries with lower prison rates than the usa look at some of the out of control crime on their streets and in back rooms, and do not exalt in how superior their society is, but wish they could build some more jails and clean up their society too
the usa has plenty of problems. and jailing someone for smoking a marijuana joint is clearly wrong and stupid. but if you have a well-functioning criminal justice system, you're going to catch more criminals. it's that simple
i mean real, genuine transgressors of citizen's rights. its insults on human dignity that bother you, right? that's the concern that motivates your words, right? you don't see that happening from criminals, whether in boardrooms or in alleyways? we need to catch criminals and punish them, not cheer the fact we have little if any jails, right?
i would bet that the ideal amount of incarceration in an ideally functioning society is closer to the usa's rate, than it is to the rate of some country with a dysfunctional judiciary and corrupt police force, where criminals conduct their transgressions with impunity, whether white collar or blue collar
look: not all abuses of human rights are done by the state. most of it, in fact, throughout human history, is done by individuals and mafias. unless you consider getting robbed, raped, extorted or murdered not a human rights violation?
know that the average thug on the street is a threat to the dignity of mankind just as much as your waterboarding cia goon. and you fight that assault on human dignity, by throwing a heck of a lot more criminals in jail, in societies where currently the criminal justice system is subpar and broken
my whole point is: i don't understand someone who seems so motivated by human rights and human dignity in their words, but sees threats to that only emanating from governmental organizations, and not genuine criminal activity. you have a distorted view of what really threatens the principles that motivate you
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
Siemens has offices in Virginia, at least in Newport News, maybe other places. Not sure what they do there, I just figured they were contracting at places like the Northrop-Grumman shipyard, Jefferson Lab, and NASA-Langley that we have around. Regardless of the merits of claims of "lawfulness," I suspect that as Siemens has a presence here that they might be liable for violating sanctions the US has in place against Iran. Expect them to lose some contracts here, if nothing else.
The same logic that allowed the allies to try and execute Nazi officers after WWII under ex post facto "war crimes" rules which hadn't existed in the first place, when they were following orders from superiors in keeping with official government policy (thus, the holocaust was "lawful" in Germany and occupied territories)? Not to Godwin the thread or anything, but the situation is one of guaranteeing a morally correct outcome even if technically what your doing is violating the spirit and letter of your legal system. Like reverse jury nullification.
however, i would rather live in a country concerned with the rights of women as EQUALS, rather than a society that treats its women like cattle
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
Slashdotters post 10,000 photos of trashed Nokias. Does that influence "The Law"?. "The Law" can be seen as the final rulings, and a composition of many factors. PR, Written law, precedents, lawyer and client skills, judge, jury, place and time, social acceptance or tolerance at that social-political moment, media influence, public and lobby actions, and many other factors influence decisions. Piracy, for example, clearly illegal and punishable by written law, but it's socially accepted within many contexts by most of the public, in most countries. A tortured journalist does have a great social-political moment in the US, and Iran does not. Had he been tortured by a Western power, he'd have no chance. Nokia, as a Western, non-US corporation, has some factors favoring, some against it. Written law and social moment are generally against torture in the US, but he might have had better chances at the ICC, which has jurisdiction, and is not in a country in wars, which generally uses torture and makes more of the public accept it. Even if he doesn't win, he'll have great influence on the social-legal debate. It could lead to greater isolation of torture-supporting entities, just for PR reasons. Especially if we publish those tortured-Nokia photos.
Build your own energy sources from scratch. http://otherpower.com/
AT&T (American company) provide monitoring equipment to the American government - get all manner of legal protection.
Nokia (not American company) provide less sophisticated tech to Iranian government - get charged.
Ummm... discrimination on the basis of nationality... isn't there a work for that... ummm... racism?
Nevermind the legal outcome, just think of the PR campaign. Keeping it in the press means Nokia and oppression lose every day, and the public and journalists win. Not to mention the pressure on Iran and any country using these tactics.
Build your own energy sources from scratch. http://otherpower.com/
we live in a world, including the usa, where women are paid less, treated like cattle, have acid thrown on their face because they don't submit to some asshole, are prostituted out or married off in their early teens, or otherwise dominated and abused. this is incredibly fucking obvious
but you present us the opposite. that women somehow rule
ok! pffffft
all your words mean to me is you have some sort of gigantic personal issue
did a high school girlfriend drop you like a hot potato? is the alimony too high in your divorce proceedings? are you some sort of religious fuckwit?
what exactly, what part of your life experience is driving this obviously completely retarded view of women and power in this world?
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
There is no parallel here. The Nuremberg trials had a legal foothold in the international and military laws of the time (beginning with the Hague conventions). Besides, they were conducted by an international tribunal, against the military leaders of Germany.
Even the so called "Subsequent" Nuremberg trials (during which the US prosecuted various companies and individuals who allegedly assisted the Nazi regime) were conducted under the powers of the US occupational authority, and, if memory serves, were limited in scope to violations of the laws of war. So, nope, no parallel here either.
In this case, a private party is bringing private litigation against companies in a third country for something (communication interception by the government), which most of the time isn't a crime even in the US.
The only remotely relevant case I can think of is the infamous judgment from a few years ago, in which a US court seize priceless Iran museum art in the US, and that was closer to a highway robbery than to the Nuremberg trials.
Apparently, some people have the notion that it is easy to sue and collect if the people you dislike are not favorites of the US government.
I have yet to see anything that suggests that Anonymous Coward is an intellectual, so I don't think you need to worry,
Where are the lawsuits against the US telecom companies (AT&T, Verizon, etc) for their unlawful assistance of government intercepts of American Communications? Oh yeah, they were thrown out on "National Security" grounds.
Hypocrisy...
Finland hasn't been a part of Sweden since 1809.
Most people do not know it, but the United States has traditionally exerted strong controls over what may leave the country. Starting with prohibiting exports of long pine logs useable for masts and spars for the superweapons of 1790.
The laws are very complex, you can get a start here.
US law is exactly as many complain: very intrusive, overreaching and extraterritorial. It can be a violation to allow people (even US citizens) born in different places to even _see_ certain technologies [deemed export]. It can be a violation for people who have zero connection with the US sitting in other countries (Nokia in Finland) to export technology to third countries [Iran] if that technology has US origin.
If you do not like it, write your congresscritters. The diplomats have tried, believe me. The real problem with such onerous laws is selective, politically motivated enforcement. Beyond prior restraint and perverse incentives, this empowers and corrupts public officials.
WOW... some of you can be so dumb... This should have never happened because the US and the World Trade Organization have a No-Trade restriction against IRAN...... Being that the US is one of the original founding members, they have jurisdiction over US companies and have a heavy say on what happens against companies in other countries...
Was it illegal in Iran for their government to purchase the gear? Surely Nokia - Seimens has international divisions. Are they bound by US law when all of the elements of a transaction are conducted outside the US?
I'm not suggesting that it was not an evil deed to sell this gear to the government of Iran but whether it was actually illegal is entirely another question. And just why did they file suit in the US?
...for starters, from POTUS and the Congress for what the US did to Iranians in 1953. Anything less is just posturing. In a perfect world, they could also press charges against the US officers and corporations that against the US laws of the time knowingly supported the crimes of the Sha regime. I pretty much doubt that the US Constitution and laws have or have had provisions for the authorization of the torture and murder of innocent people at will.
The current half assed job at "justice" that the US does simply paints the legitimate Iranians activists as collaborators of a foreign power that menaces to destroy the Iranian nation and provides the current regime with a perfect scapegoat for their brutality and economic incompetence.
Mexico: 100% conservative's America now!
But unlawful monitoring? What would the logic behind this be?
No logic, just the lawsuit lottery (and trying to make the Iranian govt look bad).
Even if you win, good luck trying to collect from the Iranian govt.
Free Will. God will not "force" us to do what's right.
Proverbs 21:19 It is better to dwell in the wilderness, than with a contentious and an angry woman.
"if someone makes a bad/poor decision in the past,"
The US makes decisions like this, consistently. We will prop up one government or another, and depose another dictator, for some benefit, real or imagined. Tell me again, why did we depose Saddam Hussein? Wasn't it pretty much for doing the same things as the Shah of Iran did?
What was the biggest difference between the two men? One groveled at the feet of the people in Washington, the other thumbed his nose at the people in Washington.
The US can make an occasional bad decision, sure. One of them led to the Spanish-American war. But, what we see in the mideast is an established, ongoing, decades old policy of exploiting the oil fields, and damn anyone who gets in the way.
Oh - if you should read that Wikipedia article on Operation Ajax - you should be aware that the oil company under discussion is the very same British Petroleum that is catching hell in the Gulf of Mexico today. Follow all the links referencing oil companies in that article, you'll see how it all works.
"Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
How come the Free Market didn't promote freedom? I thought it was quintessentially American...
I swear to God...I swear to God! That is NOT how you treat your human!
In July, according to BBC News, British farmer David Lucas will be forced by European Commission rules to give up his lucrative sideline of building gallows for Zimbabwe and other governments that still employ hangings. Lucas's single gallows sells for the equivalent of $22,000, and the Multi-Hanging Execution System, mounted on a trailer, goes for about $185,000.
Source: http://www.pogocheats.net/forum/index.php?action=printpage;topic=24729.0
The guy's a journalist, right? He should be rather savvy regarding communications technology. He knows, or should know, that ANY radio transmitter can be triangulated. Even us dummies here on slashdot who aren't involved in any James Bond style life changing action know that the government can monitor and track almost anything that can transmit.
Maybe he should have invested in carrier pigeons instead of hi tech communication devices.
"Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
The bigger picture is that companies, by definition, aren't ultimately concerned with good and evil. That's an easy thing to hide behind however they are run by people. And those people need to have some sense of good and evil. Hell, when Google can't even hold to their own principles what can we expect?
The problem with this sort of "everybody's evil" perspective is that it doesn't provide any constructive guidance. It just drives people toward cynicism and more complaining. OK, neither country is perfect, but what do we do now?
evil is always good to specifically call out. But some might think that being for something works a lot better than being against something. Let us play into that and come up with some positive to support in the US and in Iran and there is an odd chance that we might get to a thought about which is more good. I will start out.
You can still publicly politically organize in the United States. Yeah, if you are addressing fundamental issues and figure out how to be effective at it, then you are going to be hurting, but hey, as far as I can tell, doing anything interesting involves ante up of life and soul. Recall "life, liberty, and sacred honor". "The tree of liberty must be watered by the blood of " whatever. Who told you that things ever changed?
Iran is just now bringing up a nuke power plant, just like everyone else in Asia is busy doing. This means a better life for the population.
Since this is slashdot and I use openbsd, it seems that this OS is a "controlled munition". Theo et al seem to feel it is useful to prohibit US citizens from working on the kernel and to put up warnings against foreign nationals from downloading from US servers. As best I can tell, if Theo was willing to jump through some US Commerce Department hoops, this situation could be avoided. Except why should he and if he did, why would put he put trust in some permission letter from the US government?
If ZTE provided the lawful interception devices then would he be much more happier?
The orange meme (focus on achievement, making money) meets the green meme (hold on, there are side effects to these actions that cause harm). Orange will not understand green talk.
The problem is that this is not an isolated event, we have a history of false flag attacks, overthrowing of governments, and economic subversion that effectively undermines our position. What it really boils down is that we are only interested in ourselves, but we tell the public good stories about justice and democracy to get their support. Almost never is it true. As a matter of fact, we have even been active in terrorist operations earlier than anyone in the ME (Operation Gladio for starters, etc)
"It's ok, I'm completely secure as long as my iron is off"
One country can not be "better" than another.
Well, it's hard to say whether a hell-hole like Zimbabwe is better than a hell-hole like Burma ("There's no settling the order of precedence between a worm and a louse" - Johnson). However, few apart from the Dear Leader himself would consider North Korea to be as good as Canada, for instance.
Is your name Kim Jong-Il, by any chance?
Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire
... in the US some americans call their president "a muslim that's going to destroy america" and they're never arrested ...
in the Iran some iranians also call their president "a muslim that's going to destroy america" and they're also never arrested.
The US dollar is backed by Saudi oil. US world dominance is dependent on this.
Deleted