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BP's Gulf Spill Report Shows String of Failures

eldavojohn writes "News is out of BP's report on the gulf spill that shifts some of the blame on to other companies like Transocean that worked with BP in erecting the Deepwater Horizon rig. If you were affected by the spill, you might find the video, executive summary and 193-page report an interesting read. The summary outlines six or seven major failures in safety and engineering that all built up to the deaths of eleven workers and widespread contamination of the gulf. From incorrectly using seawater instead of drilling fluid to misinterpreting pressure test results, this report is just BP's side of the story as the blowout preventer has been pulled up and is still on its way to NASA where it will be analyzed by government investigators who will be able to compile their own report."

181 comments

  1. Bad link by XanC · · Score: 1

    The link points directly to an error page. I mean, it actually points to securityerrorpageredirect.jsp!

    1. Re:Bad link by Scorch_Mechanic · · Score: 2, Interesting

      There's something inherently just about a bad summary with a bad link describing the bad behavior of a bad company.

      --
      You should turn signatures off.
    2. Re:Bad link by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      The link points directly to an error page. I mean, it actually points to securityerrorpageredirect.jsp!

      http://www.bp.com/sectiongenericarticle.do?categoryId=9034902&contentId=7064891

    3. Re:Bad link by SputnikPanic · · Score: 1

      Clearly anything having to do with BP is cursed to fail.

    4. Re:Bad link by lgw · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Any major disaster is at the end of a long chain of fuckups (this applies to /. stories as well of course). No doubt there's plenty of blame here - many people need to cooperate to keep the chain of fuckups going to where multiple safety and contingency systems fail.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    5. Re:Bad link by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      This has happened before with BP articles....

    6. Re:Bad link by ColdWetDog · · Score: 5, Interesting
      This is nice tear down of the executive summary. The Oildrum has had an excellent running commentary on the Macondo Spill. It's primarily a 'Peak Oil' site but it is done quite well. My favorite quote from some apparently ancient oil guy named 'Rockman' who's major failing in life seems to be a horrible addiction to Blue Bell ice cream:

      Here's what I saw as critical aspects of the executive summary from the BP report. "Indications of influx with an increase in drill pipe pressure are discernable in real-time data from approximately 40 minutes before the rig crew took action to control the well. The rig crew's first apparent well control actions occurred after hydrocarbons were rapidly flowing to the surface. The rig crew did not recognize the influx and did not act to control the well until hydrocarbons had passed through the BOP and into the riser."



      "Well control response actions failed to regain control of the well. If fluids had been diverted overboard, rather than to the MGS, there may have been more time to respond, and the consequences of the accident may have been reduced."

      And a viable excuse offered: "The explosions and fire very likely disabled the emergency disconnect sequence, the primary emergency method available to the rig personnel, which was designed to seal the wellbore and disconnect the marine riser from the well.

      Given a number of highly questionable decisions, BP appears to volunteer to take a few arrows themselves: "The team did not identify any single action or inaction that caused this accident. Rather, a complex and interlinked series of mechanical failures, human judgments, engineering design, operational implementation and team interfaces came together to allow the initiation and escalation of the accident. Multiple companies, work teams and circumstances were involved over time."

      So BP may claim a collective blame but I go back to their lead off position: ""the crew... did not act to control the well". If you followed the debate between syn and I you can see how I take BP's report: yes...BP and others made mistakes. BUT the TO drill crew "did not act to control the well". And that lack of action allowed the kick to turn into a blow out that killed 11 hands and wrecked the GOM.

      Opinions will vary, of course. And in the end there will be legal judgment rendered. But each person, including the surviving participants, will come to their own conlusions.

      Summary of the Summary: BP did a bunch of stupid things, but it was TO's (Trans Ocean - the rig owner) responsibility to control the well even if BP purposely designed the rig to fail. They didn't do that. And Boom. IMHO this is not a shot across the bow of Transocean...it's an arrow aimed straight at their heart: "the crew... did not act to control the well".

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    7. Re:Bad link by mcgrew · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Well, at least the summary didn't kill anybody.

      TFS: The summary outlines six or seven major failures in safety and engineering

      Yet nobody's in prison for negligent manslaughter. But if I'm not paying attention and run over a single person, I go to prison. Must be nice to be so rich you're above the law.

    8. Re:Bad link by natehoy · · Score: 1

      They must have been stress-testing the site blowout preventer by attempting to Slashdot it.

      --
      "This post contains words, known to the State of California to cause thought. Wash brain thoroughly after reading."
    9. Re:Bad link by Coren22 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Or to be a corporation that cannot be held liable as a person can.

      --
      APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
    10. Re:Bad link by IrquiM · · Score: 1

      Yet nobody's in prison for negligent manslaughter. But if I'm not paying attention and run over a single person, I go to prison. Must be nice to be so rich you're above the law.

      Since it all started at the bottom of the sea with the concrete, and that was a US company, they can't stuff a Brit in prison without doing the same to a couple of American companies as well.

      --
      This is blinging
    11. Re:Bad link by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When will you people wake up and realize that they do these things on purpose to manufacture crises that they then solve for you while their buddies in business laugh all the way to the bank? It's not a conspiracy theory you dismissive unimaginative fucks. They don't give a shit about you. They don't care how much harm they cause or how much damage they do. They will happily retard the entire collective human consciousness and level of spiritual awareness if it means more money and power for them. Fat and stupid and oblivious and childish and egotistical is just how they want you to be.

      You're being controlled. You're being farmed like livestock. Your masters know what's best for you. They sure as hell don't want you waking up to the reality that all the important decisions are made for you, that the Democrat vs. Republican bullshit is nothing but bickering over trivialities to give you the illusion of choice. Be a good little citizen and do your job and know your role and vote the party ticket and don't question too hard. Be an even better citizen and tell me I'm a tin-foil hatter, just like a good Catholic in the Dark Ages would have called Galileo a heretic.

      Were you dropped on your head as a child?

    12. Re:Bad link by spun · · Score: 1

      I thought persons made the decisions at corporations. You could hold the person that made the decision responsible. Or you could actually hold the corporation itself responsible: break it up and sell it off, the corporate death penalty. We human beings made the rules we operate under right now. and we can change them.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    13. Re:Bad link by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We human beings haven't made the rules for a long time. Corporations make the rules. And going back to your "person that made the decision"... it's a corporation, so everyone will just be pointing the finger at everyone else so that nobody can be blamed directly. And when you try to generalize it to blame the entire corporation... well, corporations make the rules and are above the rules they make to begin with... especially so if it's too big to fail (of which an oil company like this most certainly is).

      So all in all, some poor-ass scapegoats at the bottom will be fired, and then we will never hear about any further charges after that.

    14. Re:Bad link by spun · · Score: 1

      Unless I'm horribly confused, corporations are made up of people. Yes, diffusion of responsibility can make it easy for people in the corporation to lay blame elsewhere, from outside it is obvious that every decision was made by an individual or individuals.

      More importantly, we are a democracy and corporations can not vote.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    15. Re:Bad link by TubeSteak · · Score: 1

      And Boom. IMHO this is not a shot across the bow of Transocean...it's an arrow aimed straight at their heart:
      "the crew... did not act to control the well".

      And ultimately, BP's report is going to mean fuck-all except as an attempt at short term damage control.
      The Feds are going to investigate the hell out of this and that report is the one Congress will base their actions on.

      --
      [Fuck Beta]
      o0t!
    16. Re:Bad link by NotBornYesterday · · Score: 1

      Simply continuing the string of failures. Think of it as meta-humor.

      --
      I prefer rogues to imbeciles because they sometimes take a rest.
    17. Re:Bad link by Jawnn · · Score: 1

      Or to be a corporation that cannot be held liable as a person can.

      Corporate citizenship. All the rights and none of the responsibilities. Ain't it great?

    18. Re:Bad link by sjames · · Score: 2, Interesting

      It always devolves into he said she said. Phrases come up like "that's not what I meant", "I never said that, I said...", "that's not what I heard...". It's always "nobody's fault". If you try to hold a single person responsible, it'll inevitably be the poor schlep with no actual authority who did what he was told without having enough authority to know about the other things that were don so that the action became dangerous.

      The corporation, however, can be held responsible. Anywhere from surrendering years worth of profits in lieu of jail time and a supervised parole process where their internal documents are an open book to relevant watchdogs. As you point out, breakup and sell-off as substitutes for the death penalty. Needless to say, executive bonuses should be suspended for the period of any sentence. How well could they have performed if they allowed a corporate culture that lead to committing felonies?

    19. Re:Bad link by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      I agree there are many things that went wrong, that probably could have been avoided on both BP and TO's side. What it all comes down to is money and the issues it has caused with the wildlife in the ocean. If you would like to help out there is some information here about How oil spills impact wildlife. Overall no matter which company is to blame, the fact that it took them so long to clean up and fix is appalling to everyone.

    20. Re:Bad link by Ubergrendle · · Score: 1

      The solution to this is fairly simple -- make it illegal for oil production companies to subcontract drilling operations. They can then be held 100% accountable for all aspects of the oil economy, from exploration and drilling straight to the pumps of cars.

      There is no great conspiracy here; subcontracting makes sense to both distribute financial risk and to encourage efficiencies. But when the end result is not just profit but a healthy ecosystem, pure 100% profit driven efficiency should not be the end goal. Oil companies can be very responsible, if you hold them accountable. I see as the responsibility of governments -- to regulate and mitigate the dangers of 100% laissez faire capitalism.

      --
      John Maynard Keynes: "When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do?"
    21. Re:Bad link by Dare+nMc · · Score: 1

      if I'm not paying attention and run over a single person, I go to prison.

      Not likely, unless you weren't paying attention because of drugs or alcohol or some other "negligent behavior" was involved, like excessive speeding; A single momentary mistake is not generally considered criminal. In this case it does seam fairly likely that one or more of the people "not paying enough attention" that helped escalated this to deaths were among those killed, so no reason to hang them again. The blowout preventer (for example) doesn't appear to be a factor at all in the deaths, only in the continued oil leaking after the explosion. Many civil penalties will be involved, just like what would happen in a vehicle accident, IE you pay the fines, your insurance cleans up the mess, then you either pay them back with a increased insurance rates or by giving up driving for awhile.

    22. Re:Bad link by DragonWriter · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Summary of the Summary: BP did a bunch of stupid things, but it was TO's (Trans Ocean - the rig owner) responsibility to control the well even if BP purposely designed the rig to fail. They didn't do that. And Boom. IMHO this is not a shot across the bow of Transocean...it's an arrow aimed straight at their heart: "the crew... did not act to control the well".

      Summary^3: BP's report says "That sucked. But it was mostly someone else's fault."

      Big surprise.

    23. Re:Bad link by Pseudonym+Authority · · Score: 1

      More importantly, we are a democracy and corporations can not vote.

      Sure they do, they vote with their wallet.

    24. Re:Bad link by thegarbz · · Score: 4, Insightful

      They didn't do that. And Boom. IMHO this is not a shot across the bow of Transocean...it's an arrow aimed straight at their heart: "the crew... did not act to control the well".

      This is how all these investigations work. Nearly every major incident has such a multitude of failures in defence mechanisms leading up to it that it is actually quite easily to say "It's not my responsibility because if X happened then the entire situation could have been avoided." For example:

      The Texas City incident could have been avoided by operations not overfilling the column. Damn operations. Or it could have been avoided if the high level switches in the column worked. Damn maintenance. Or it could have been avoided by the blowdown stack being connected to the flare relief line (the piping ran very close so this wasn't an expensive option). Damn engineers. How about a culture of routine complacency in the workplace? Damn Management!

      Could apply the same thing to Three Mile Island. Operators should have realised there was no water in the cooling system and not cut the feed. Damn Operations. The PORV should have properly autoreclosed and not jammed open. Damn Maintenance. etc etc.

      Chernobyl? Operators should not have shutdown the SCRAM shutdown system, engineering should have an interlock that prevents the removal of control rods so far out of the reactor and the sudden re-insertion etc. etc. etc.

      This was Transocean's fault. It was Haliburton's fault. It was definitely BP's fault too.

    25. Re:Bad link by HereIAmJH · · Score: 1

      And ultimately, BP's report is going to mean fuck-all except as an attempt at short term damage control.

      If BP succeeds in offloading most of the blame, it may come back to bite them later. If I'm TO and going to be responsible for whatever happens on the rig, my contracts are going to change to: you tell me where to drill, and I'll tell you what it will cost, then you get the fuck off my rig. And as for Haliburton, they will simply refuse to cement any hole that doesn't meet their guidelines. Guidelines that will be well above minimum spec. Who ever ends up with the liability will have the final authority on decisions.

      While none of this is necessarily bad for the industry, it is going to make drilling a lot more expensive.

      --
      Another day, another update to a Google android app.
    26. Re:Bad link by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The question isn't whether, but how many times.

    27. Re:Bad link by Bigjeff5 · · Score: 1

      If I'm TO and going to be responsible for whatever happens on the rig, my contracts are going to change to: you tell me where to drill, and I'll tell you what it will cost, then you get the fuck off my rig.

      I think you severely over-estimate TO's position of power in this situation. BP can quite easily go with another deep sea drilling company. There are only a handful of them, but there are enough that BP need never use TO again. If that happens, TO will be hurt significantly financially in the long run, because BP is one of the largest oil companies in the world, and therefor a major source of income in a competitive market will be cut off from them.

      Hopefully the result is that TO will practice much stricter Cover-Your-Ass policies, things like not accepting responsibility for a system if tests are inconsistent, ensuring only authorized personnel are in control areas, ensuring equipment is checked and rechecked, etc. This is the way things should be run anyway.

      The bottom line is Trans-Ocean was responsible for what happened on that rig, and they did not take that responsibility seriously enough.

      All parties involved, from the Government, to BP, to Haliburton, to Trans-Ocean, could have prevented this accident. Trans-Ocean, however, was in the best position to recognize the problem and sound the alarm before it was too late. They were the experts brought in to run the rig. They should have known how things should have been in spite of others (like BP) wanting them to be something else. It was their job to make sure the well was drilled safely. They did not do this, so in my opinion it is Trans-Ocean who should bear the lion's share of the blame for the accident.

      --
      Security is mostly a superstition... Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. - Helen Keller
    28. Re:Bad link by UnknowingFool · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Summary of the Summary: BP did a bunch of stupid things, but it was TO's (Trans Ocean - the rig owner) responsibility to control the well even if BP purposely designed the rig to fail. They didn't do that. And Boom. IMHO this is not a shot across the bow of Transocean...it's an arrow aimed straight at their heart: "the crew... did not act to control the well".

      That's not how it works in the oil and gas business and I have many friends in the industry. The ultimate responsibility is in the hands of the well owner, not the rig owner. In this case that is BP because BP called all the shots. And that is the company people will sue. There are a number of things that BP did to bypass Transocean's safety protocols. While it appears that Transocean may have damaged the BOP before handling control to BP, you don't know if BP knew that. There is evidence BP pressured Transocean to finish off the well their way. Transocean wanted 3 concrete plugs with finishing mud in between. In order to save time, BP did not want the finishing mud. Professor Robert Bea who was asked to investigate the incident by the White House says if the mud had been left, there may have not been a blowout even if the BOP was damaged.

      --
      Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
    29. Re:Bad link by HereIAmJH · · Score: 1

      I think you severely over-estimate TO's position of power in this situation.

      If BP slices off the majority of this $60b pie and dumps it on their contractors, it won't just be TO and Haliburton who are tightening up their contracts. If, in the end, it comes down to TO wanting to do things one way and BP overriding that decision, and then TO paying damages because of it, TO and other contractors are not going to take financial responsibility if BP has final say over drilling options. BP can't have it both ways, if they have decision making authority on the rig then they have financial responsibility. This report is trying to pass those responsibilities to TO and Haliburton.

      --
      Another day, another update to a Google android app.
    30. Re:Bad link by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      The Feds are going to investigate the hell out of this and that report is the one Congress will base their actions on.

      I'm sure that report will be totally honest and unbiased.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    31. Re:Bad link by Coren22 · · Score: 1

      Yup, where can I file to make myself a corporation?

      --
      APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
    32. Re:Bad link by hesaigo999ca · · Score: 1

      Oh, you didn't know....the laws ARE made by these people, they have our government in their back pockets, you only need to own your very own ____ (insert one of the following, Oil, Insurance, Pharmaceutical, Medical, etc...) company to do so....also showing up at many of the galas meant to raise fund money for presidential elections races helps also...

  2. Queue the Libertarian Rants! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    Wargarbl!!! REGULATION IS TO BLAME!!!! Wargarbl!!! GOVERNMENT IS EVIL!!!! Wargarbl!!! Corporations love us and want to protect us!!!! WARGAARBLE!!!! Who is John Galt!?!?!?!

    1. Re:Queue the Libertarian Rants! by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Don't be a moron, libertarians don't support corporations.

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    2. Re:Queue the Libertarian Rants! by jedidiah · · Score: 0

      > Don't be a moron, libertarians don't support corporations.

      Sure they do. Don't lie to us. We can hear their Rand-ian rhetoric for ourselves. ...of course you could do the Lenningrad 2-step and claim that most libertarians aren't really libertarians or some such nonsense.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    3. Re:Queue the Libertarian Rants! by Korin43 · · Score: 1

      Sure they do. Don't question my straw man.

      Big corporations are the product of government interference, they wouldn't exist at all if they weren't being assisted with subsidies, the ability to hurt people without consequences, and regulations/copyrights/patents to make sure that no one else can enter the market. Any Libertarian who supports that is a moron.

    4. Re:Queue the Libertarian Rants! by enjerth · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The libertarian principle is more like giving the least trust to those with the greatest power. It's not in support of anything except personal freedom. It just happens that you get the worst of both worlds when you introduce regulation as the government selects "qualified" individuals, such as former CEO's of industry leaders, to give regulatory power to in their given field. I wouldn't want them selecting unqualified individuals, but the qualified ones have a history of personal investment and are likely quite partial. They don't make for impartial regulators.

      Such as Michael Taylor, former VP of Public Policy at Monsanto Corp. and Monsanto lobbyist, appointed to senior FDA food safety adviser. Or Roger Beachy, former president of the Danforth Plant Science Center, another branch of the Monsanto Corp., is now heading the National Institute of Food and Agriculture.

      You don't trust corporations, but you refuse to realize that regulation just supports more corporatism?

      Your government only gives you the illusion of protection and safety. You are really on your own in this world. We'd just like to have the government acknowledge that fact.

    5. Re:Queue the Libertarian Rants! by tibman · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure about that. Huge crime organizations exist and they aren't a product of government interference.. they exist in spite of it.

      --
      http://soylentnews.org/~tibman
    6. Re:Queue the Libertarian Rants! by mcgrew · · Score: 4, Informative

      From the Libertarian party's website:

      We defend the right of individuals to form corporations, cooperatives and other types of companies based on voluntary association. We seek to divest government of all functions that can be provided by non-governmental organizations or private individuals. We oppose government subsidies to business, labor, or any other special interest. Industries should be governed by free markets.

      Sure looks to me like they support them.

    7. Re:Queue the Libertarian Rants! by NotBornYesterday · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Huge crime organizations exist because they take advantage of government interference. The Prohibition effectively created the market Al Capone made millions serving.

      --
      I prefer rogues to imbeciles because they sometimes take a rest.
    8. Re:Queue the Libertarian Rants! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm not sure about that. Huge crime organizations exist and they aren't a product of government interference.. they exist in spite of it.

      Government interference (e.g. prohibition) => Huge crime organizations (e.g. Al Capone)

    9. Re:Queue the Libertarian Rants! by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      Usually in discussions with people on /. the libertarians are moderated down, I wouldn't be surprised to see your comment go down to -1 Troll for no reason other than you have some principles and the moderators hate them.

    10. Re:Queue the Libertarian Rants! by CitizenPlusPlus · · Score: 1

      The problem is not big government, its distant government.

      An effective democracy of citizen councils and trade unions is what our corporate rulers fear most. For the corporate powers could be rendered obsolete overnight if there is common popular struggle and solidarity.

      Socialism without jails!! And the people will not be content until the Pentagon is dismantled and there is universal healthcare for all!!  If the Empire crumbles, so be it.  The world will be better off for it.

    11. Re:Queue the Libertarian Rants! by RatherBeAnonymous · · Score: 1

      Not entirely. Many (Most? All?) huge crime organizations make money by supplying illegal goods. These goods would not be illegal if not for government involvement. The classic American mafia-type organizations would not exist if not for prohibition. Drug cartels would not exist if not for the illegal drug trade.

    12. Re:Queue the Libertarian Rants! by DragonWriter · · Score: 1

      Of course, that position is also self-contradictory. You can't support the right to form corporations (which are distinguished by the shield against personal liability which is a public subsidy to the owners of the corporation) while opposing government subsidies to business.

      The corporate form itself is a government subsidy to business.

    13. Re:Queue the Libertarian Rants! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They are not defenders of capitalism. They’re a group of publicity seekers who rush into politics prematurely, because they allegedly want to educate people through a political campaign, which can’t be done. Further, their leadership consists of men of every of persuasion, from religious conservatives to anarchists. The issue is so serious today, that to form a new party based in part on half-baked ideas, and in part on borrowed ideas—I won’t say from whom—is irresponsible, and in today’s context, nearly immoral. Capitalism is the one system that requires absolute objective law, yet they want to combine capitalism and anarchism. That is worse than anything the New Left has proposed. It’s a mockery of philosophy and ideology. They sling slogans and try to ride on two bandwagons. Because Libertarians are a monstrous, disgusting bunch of people: they plagiarize my ideas when that fits their purpose, and they denounce me in a more vicious manner than any communist publication, when that fits their purpose. They are lower than any pragmatists, and what they hold against Objectivism is morality. They’d like to have an amoral political program. I want philosophically educated people: those who understand ideas, care about ideas, and spread the right ideas. That’s how my philosophy will spread, just as philosophy has throughout all history: by means of people who understand and teach it to others. Further, it should be clear that I do not endorse the filthy slogan, “The end justifies the means.” That was originated by the Jesuits, and accepted enthusiastically by Communists and Nazis. The end does not justify the means; you cannot achieve anything good by evil means. Finally, the Libertarians aren’t worthy of being the means to any end, let alone the end of spreading Objectivism. I didn’t know whether I should be glad that no credit was given, or disgusted. I felt both. They are perhaps the worst political group today, because they can do the most harm to capitalism, by making it disreputable.

    14. Re:Queue the Libertarian Rants! by Mab_Mass · · Score: 1

      You don't trust corporations, but you refuse to realize that regulation just supports more corporatism?

      Huh? I was with you until I read this statement. Could you elaborate on what you mean by this? I'm not trolling, I just fail to see what you're getting at.

      The examples you give are clear failings of the current regulatory system, but what are the alternatives to some sort of regulation? Without any sort of oversight on companies, they will almost always seek out the path that minimizes direct costs, without any regard to long-term indirect costs to society.

      How do you propose holding companies to any standards absent any external third party (ie, regulators)? Again, I'm not trolling, I just fail to see how such a system could work.

    15. Re:Queue the Libertarian Rants! by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

      Sure they do. Don't lie to us. We can hear their Rand-ian rhetoric for ourselves. ...of course you could do the Lenningrad 2-step and claim that most libertarians aren't really libertarians or some such nonsense.

      Rand-ians are Objectivists. They happen to take some libertarian positions.

      One cannot support the non-aggression principle while supporting the corporate form by government - it's logically inconsistent. People can call themselves whatever they want.

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    16. Re:Queue the Libertarian Rants! by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

      Libertarian party

      Yeah, the people who ran Bob Barr, drug warrior and anti-flag burner, as their candidate.

      I could start, say, a Christian Party and say whatever I wanted, but I wouldn't be therefore representing Christians by doing so.

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    17. Re:Queue the Libertarian Rants! by Bigjeff5 · · Score: 1

      You must have missed this part:

      It just happens that you get the worst of both worlds when you introduce regulation as the government selects "qualified" individuals, such as former CEO's of industry leaders, to give regulatory power to in their given field.

      Which is exactly how regulators are chosen today.

      If the people writing the laws (congress generally gets these people to write the laws, then the congressmen enact them) and enforcing the laws are former corporate executives, who but corporations do you expect to benefit from regulation?

      --
      Security is mostly a superstition... Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. - Helen Keller
    18. Re:Queue the Libertarian Rants! by Bigjeff5 · · Score: 1

      Huh?

      How would eliminating government subsidies to businesses eliminate the right to form corporations? There are many reasons to form corporations, most of them legal. Eliminating tax breaks for corporations will not change those reasons, it simply removes one of the reasons for forming a corporation. It also in no way eliminates the ability to create a corporation.

      Government subsidies are not essential for the creation of a corporation, nor does creating a corporation necessitate a government subsidy.

      Do you even understand what a subsidy and a corporation are?

      --
      Security is mostly a superstition... Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. - Helen Keller
    19. Re:Queue the Libertarian Rants! by Mab_Mass · · Score: 1

      Sorry, but here I have to object to what you say.

      Your point is well-taken about having former CEOs, etc. in positions to oversee their former industries, but should we throw out the whole system simply because there is some abuse of power? Industry people hate regulators. Full stop. I have never read an account of any corporation cherishing the regulations laid down by the government. Instead, they complain about too much cost, etc.

      In my mind, that means that there are a whole host of regulations that don't directly benefit corporations, which makes your statement that "regulation just supports more corporatism" pretty questionable.

      You also fail to address my question - what do you think will happen if there is no regulation? What will stop companies from engaging in unsafe practices, like what happened with BP? Why will any factory install expensive systems to clean their waste instead of just dumping it in the river? Why will any company disclose all of their ingredients if they don't have to?

      The libertarian argument is that the consumers will demand it, but I doubt that this can happen. Do you know where the plastic in your keyboard came from? Do you have any idea where in the world all of your food is grown? The world is too complicated for each consumer to fully research every shopping decision and come to a final conclusion that carefully balances the needs of everybody.

      The only solution that I see is some external regulating body. It doesn't have to be the government per se (and examples like ISO show that some privately run regulations can work), but I totally fail to see how a lack of any regulation benefits anybody other than the companies.

    20. Re:Queue the Libertarian Rants! by dbIII · · Score: 1

      Nerds frequently like things to be well ordered so anarchists annoy them.

    21. Re:Queue the Libertarian Rants! by Korin43 · · Score: 1

      You also fail to address my question - what do you think will happen if there is no regulation? What will stop companies from engaging in unsafe practices, like what happened with BP? Why will any factory install expensive systems to clean their waste instead of just dumping it in the river? Why will any company disclose all of their ingredients if they don't have to?

      The difference between Libertarians and anarchists in general is that Libertarians want the government to protect people from other people, with no artificial limits on liability. In other words, if fixing the oil spill would cost more money than BP has, then they'll still be required to pay every last cent of it until the problem is fixed or BP has no assets left to sell. What do you think would do more to make corporations play safe, regulations or the threat that a mistake could cost them everything? And the ones that don't play it safe go out of business. I guess you could say it's a different kind of regulation. The government is still making people play by the rules; the difference is that the rules are simpler (don't break other people's stuff) and individuals (or individual companies) get to decide how best to follow that.

      The only solution that I see is some external regulating body. It doesn't have to be the government per se (and examples like ISO show that some privately run regulations can work), but I totally fail to see how a lack of any regulation benefits anybody other than the companies.

      The idea I'm most familiar with is that insurance companies would tend to fill this niche. Back to my first point, people in charge of companies aren't going to want to go out of business if something goes wrong, so they'll get insurance, but insurance companies don't want risky clients. The insurance companies would set down their own rules, and companies could choose what rules they're willing to follow and what they're willing to pay for insurance. The primary difference between this and government regulation is that the rules come from multiple sources and evolve based on what works. The insurance companies would also presumably be hiring people based on their knowledge of the subject, rather than their position on gay marriage (when's the last time someone was elected based on their knowledge of food safety?). An insurance company with rules that are too strict won't have any customers, and one with rules that aren't strict enough will go out of business.

      There are already companies that do research on products and recommend them (Consumer Reports for example). In the absence of government institutions to do this, I think consumers would pay more attention to other groups. Also, at least some stores would pay attention. For example, grocery stores would likely require their suppliers to meet certain standards. No one wants to be known as the grocery store that makes everyone sick. My guess is that there would be stores with lower standards, but that's always a choice. Better to be able to buy low-quality food than none at all.

      The libertarian argument is that the consumers will demand it, but I doubt that this can happen. Do you know where the plastic in your keyboard came from? Do you have any idea where in the world all of your food is grown? The world is too complicated for each consumer to fully research every shopping decision and come to a final conclusion that carefully balances the needs of everybody.

      I agree, this is probably the most complicated part. Like I said before, in many cases stores will do this for you, or consumer groups will get things changed (no government regulation is forcing Nestle to stop using palm oil), but it's not perfect, but it's not like the government does anything to help this now anyway.

    22. Re:Queue the Libertarian Rants! by invalid_user · · Score: 1

      Usually in discussions with people on /. the libertarians are moderated down, I wouldn't be surprised to see your comment go down to -1 Troll for no reason other than you have some principles and the moderators hate them.

      Except when a post quickly follows and claims that the parent post will be modded down, in which case the parent post will be modded up.

    23. Re:Queue the Libertarian Rants! by Mab_Mass · · Score: 1

      The difference between Libertarians and anarchists in general is that Libertarians want the government to protect people from other people, with no artificial limits on liability.

      Here is an idea that I think we all need to embrace. In fact, I would even extend this to a more aggressive stance, that says that the government should hold companies accountable for all the indirect costs of what they do.

      Of course, to play devil's advocate, I can easily imagine that companies will find ways around these kinds of policies. For example, if a mining company wanted to do a very dirty (and cheap) extraction that would poison a nearby stream, which resulted in severe health issues for those downstream, they could potentially establish some kind of temporary company which assumes all liability. Then, when the shit comes crashing down on their heads, they could just fold up the small company, declaring bankruptcy and walking away.

      Yes, it may be possible to track down the responsible people and prosecute them, but that would take (potentially) years and years of lawsuits and legal wrangling. Furthermore, in cases like this, the wealthy parent company would be capable of spending a lot more resources in court than would any of the (presumably) less well off people that would be harmed by the mining, which may practically prevent any accountability.

      In the end, wouldn't it just be simpler (and prevent less suffering) if there was (in addition to the unlimited liability) a set of rules (ie, regulations) that could prevent this whole ugly situation in the first place?

      ...but it's not like the government does anything to help this now anyway.

      What about the regulations on food package labeling? Isn't that a big help? What about all of the regulations on food safety?

      I think it is very disingenuous of you to claim that government does nothing to help you here. Look at all the issues of food safety in China absent any regulations.

      Generally speaking, we enjoy a very safe food supply, thanks in large part to the government regulations. If you chucked out all those regulations, the system of checks and balances may kick in to eventually reach some kind of stable equilibrium, but in the meantime, a lot of people will get sick and die from bad food.

      Isn't it simpler to try to prevent this in the first place?

    24. Re:Queue the Libertarian Rants! by DragonWriter · · Score: 1

      How would eliminating government subsidies to businesses eliminate the right to form corporations?

      Corporations are artificial juridical persons created by government as a means of extending special benefits (principally, protection from personal liability for debts incurred by the new entity) to the shareholders of the new corporation.

      Combinations by free contract to engage in business without special benefits extended by government are standard partnerships.

      There are many reasons to form corporations, most of them legal.

      Yes, receiving a benefit extended by government is legal. But that it is legal does not mean that supporting government continuing to provide the benefit is consistent with opposing government subsidizing business.

      Eliminating tax breaks for corporations will not change those reasons

      I'm not talking about tax breaks given to corporations, I'm talking about the special benefit that is the corporate form itself, which subsidizes the owners (shareholders) of the corporation at the expense of the rest of society by protecting those shareholders from legal liability from the debts incurred by the business operation they combine to create. You know, the whole "problem" with un-subsidized partnerships that businesses lobbied government to create the corporate form in order to solve -- that if they racked up more debts than the business operation could pay, the owners ended up having to pay out of their own pocket beyond the amount they were willing to risk in investment.

      Government subsidies are not essential for the creation of a corporation

      Incorrect. The corporate form is, in and of itself, a government subsidy. Government subsidies aren't required to form a business, if the form of that business is a standard partnership or sole proprietorship. A corporation (or any of the newer limited-liability forms, like an LLP, LLLP, or LLC) is at its heart a government subsidy to the owners of the business.

      Do you even understand what a subsidy and a corporation are?

      Yes, do you?

    25. Re:Queue the Libertarian Rants! by Korin43 · · Score: 1

      Of course, to play devil's advocate, I can easily imagine that companies will find ways around these kinds of policies. For example, if a mining company wanted to do a very dirty (and cheap) extraction that would poison a nearby stream, which resulted in severe health issues for those downstream, they could potentially establish some kind of temporary company which assumes all liability. Then, when the shit comes crashing down on their heads, they could just fold up the small company, declaring bankruptcy and walking away.

      I haven't really had much time to think about this situation, but the first thing that comes to mind is having it work like this:

      1. Insurance company agrees to pay a certain amount in cases where their customers are liable for something.
      2. This doesn't actually get their customers off the hook, it just adds an additional source of money in case something goes wrong.

      So if the insurance company doesn't have the money to cover something, the company that made the mistake has to cover the difference. It also adds an interesting effect where the insurance companies customers would have an incentive to police the insurance companies, just like the insurance companies would be policing their customers.

      ...but it's not like the government does anything to help this now anyway.

      What about the regulations on food package labeling? Isn't that a big help? What about all of the regulations on food safety?

      I was referring to where you were talking about "where does your plastic come from" or "where does your food come from", not food safety. I did write a section on food safety though. The line you quoted here was a response to what I thought was a ethics/sustainability question ("Where does your food/plastic come from?"). If it's not a question of ethics, then the answer is "I don't care". If the food tastes good and doesn't make me sick, I don't care where it's from. I assume you'll find a lot of Libertarians who will take that position. Personally, I am interested in where things come from, but that's why I shop at a grocery store that labels where everything is from (sometimes a bit too much). I wouldn't have a problem with the government enforcing truth in advertising.

      If you chucked out all those regulations, the system of checks and balances may kick in to eventually reach some kind of stable equilibrium, but in the meantime, a lot of people will get sick and die from bad food.

      My point (in the section you ignored) was that this system already exists, and the consumers don't necessarily need to know about it. How many stores are willing to be known as "the store that makes everyone sick"?

  3. Complex environment, complex causes by alfredos · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It is the same with aviation accidents. Sometimes it's just an individual screwing up, but that's the exception. Usually there are multiple causes as well as contributing factors. Unfortunately that doesn't mix well with the mainstream media, which wants a three-word expanation so that they can print in big letters on page one. I have learnt that if I want to know something about a mishap in a complex environment, either I read the whole 196-page document, or it's better if I don't learn anything at all.

    1. Re:Complex environment, complex causes by AnonymousClown · · Score: 2, Informative

      It is the same with aviation accidents. Sometimes it's just an individual screwing up, but that's the exception.

      No, it's the norm if not always the reason. Poke around here and you'll see that just about all aviation accidents are because someone screwed up. The NTSB is excellent at pinpointing the failure. The most I've ever seen was an accident several years ago that had three causes: 1. bad weather, 2. improper maintenance, 3. pilot error in dealing with failure. Most of the time, it boils down to #3 - pilot error.

      --
      RIP America

      July 4, 1776 - September 11, 2001

    2. Re:Complex environment, complex causes by jhol13 · · Score: 1

      The (USA) media (and probably USA justice system too) will blame almost entirely on BP.
      The UK media, OTOH, will ... yeah, you got it.

      This is too easy.

    3. Re:Complex environment, complex causes by dkleinsc · · Score: 2, Insightful

      On the flip side, the multiple causes from multiple organizations frequently lead to each organization completely absolving itself by saying "well, if the other team's stuff had worked properly, there wouldn't have been a problem." While true, it also means that they will avoid fixing their piece of the problem (and do their best to avoid legal responsibility as well).

      --
      I am officially gone from /. Long live http://www.soylentnews.com/
    4. Re:Complex environment, complex causes by cgenman · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Usually when you talk about complex causes, you mean that factors A, B, C, and D all interacted in unexpected ways to cause a failure, but that most of those factors on their own are basically innocuous. This can be the case in aviation, which a century out remains a tricky human endeavor.

      Here, we're talking about several major failures, any one of which would be bad on their own. You can't write it off as a "complex cause" when the safety failed because it was improperly maintained, then the safety person failed because he was improperly trained, then the backup safety failed because nobody installed it, etc. The cause is very simple: cutting too many corners.

    5. Re:Complex environment, complex causes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Learned"

    6. Re:Complex environment, complex causes by NatasRevol · · Score: 1

      Yeah, the NTSB always blames the pilot. Never the design or implementation details of any of the builders - who pay a lot to the NTSB.

      Nice example: John Denver.

      He was blamed because he failed to properly switch from one fuel tank to the other, thus depriving the engine of gas. He then crashed and died.
      What *wasn't* in the NTSB report: the switch was behind him, in a tight space, and he couldn't see over his shoulder clearly enough to tell if the switch was in the proper place.

      You can blame Denver, and he paid the price. But the engineer(s) who put the switch behind the pilot's seat are just as much, if not moreso, to blame.

      --
      There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
    7. Re:Complex environment, complex causes by alfredos · · Score: 3, Interesting

      It is the same with aviation accidents. Sometimes it's just an individual screwing up, but that's the exception.

      No, it's the norm if not always the reason

      I agree a bit with that. But I also think that while NTSB investigation and reports are top notch, they suffer from being (unavoidably) within the same environment.

      I'll give you an example. You can easily support, NTSB reports in hand, that flying by eye in meteorological conditions that are too hard for that (visual into IMC for you pilots out there) is one of the leading causes of accidents in light airplanes. That is too bad. Anybody can get some additional training and learn instrument flying. Well, if it's that easy why isn't it done in the first place? Why does not everybody get at least basic instrument training so that they can keep their act together when the shit hits the propeller? From there you can easily jump to a politics debate but keep with me for a moment. I'll give another example.

      Another leading cause of light aviation accidents is loss of engine power. Now loss of power can be due to a number of reasons: You can run out of gas, for example. Or you can forget to adjust the mixture as you go up or down. Or your carburetor can get ice. There exists technology enough to eliminate or greatly reduce the danger in most of these causes. Why isn't it done? Well, firstly because a fully computerized control system for an aviation engine costs as much as a new car. Now you can argue that the pilot is putting his/her life to risk because of economical considerations, or you can look at the reasons why everything is so damned expensive in aviation. I'll leave it to you, but yes, it's as easy as it seems.

      My point is that it's worth the effort to dig a bit more. You can't expect everybody to be fully proficient at everything they get into. Instead, however, helping environments become safer by promoting safe ideas, technologies, training and norms pays much more than blaming the individual and leaving it there.

    8. Re:Complex environment, complex causes by natehoy · · Score: 3, Informative

      What *wasn't* in the NTSB report: the switch was behind him, in a tight space, and he couldn't see over his shoulder clearly enough to tell if the switch was in the proper place.

      That WAS in the NTSB report, in fact Denver and a mechanic discussed it, the mechanic attempted to attach a pair of vice-grips as a workaround, and Denver said he'd use the autopilot to ensure straight-and-level if he had to mess with it in flight. He also refused a refuel stating that he'd be flying for an hour.

      http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/GenPDF.asp?id=LAX98FA008&rpt=fa

      But the engineer(s) who put the switch behind the pilot's seat are just as much, if not moreso, to blame

      Actually, the aircraft wasn't engineered that way. Someone (apparently a previous owner) modified it. Denver was aware of the modification, aware of its shortcomings, had actually made arrangements to fix it permanently, attempted a failed temporary fix with an A&P mechanic, then decided to fly it anyway without making sure both tanks were full (in fact, the A&P interviewed stated that Denver had initially tried to start the engine on a tank that might have been empty, meaning Denver's attempts to change tanks would have been in vain since he switched to the only tank with an unknown quantity of fuel left before takeoff).

      Sorry, John Denver was a great singer. But the blame for the crash rests firmly on his shoulders.

      This is a perfect example of a "string of failures". Someone made an ill-considered modification to an aircraft that Denver (an experienced pilot) bought. This modification made it difficult to change tanks. Denver knew about the problem, but completely failed to mitigate it by:

      1. Not making sure he had enough fuel on board in his chosen primary tank for a short flight,
      2. Not making sure he would be able to switch the tanks while in flight,
      3. Apparently not ensuring that his alternate tank had any fuel in it at all, so even if he did manipulate the switch he may well have been switching from one empty to another,
      4. Insisting on a short flight before he would be taking a trip that would give his A&P plenty of time to fix the problem and relocate the switch where it belonged.

      Proper handling of ANY of the four issues above could have turned the disaster into a safe flight (or at least a case of "being down here, wishing you were up there", which isn't usually fatal like "being up there, wishing you were down here" sometimes is).

      --
      "This post contains words, known to the State of California to cause thought. Wash brain thoroughly after reading."
    9. Re:Complex environment, complex causes by mpe · · Score: 1

      The (USA) media (and probably USA justice system too) will blame almost entirely on BP.
      The UK media, OTOH, will ... yeah, you got it.


      Amoco?

    10. Re:Complex environment, complex causes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That logic's a bit flawed. Going off of that, the blame is more circular.

      John didn't hit switch to swap fuel tanks.
      Switch was designed stupid so as to not be able to see it.
      John bought and flew a plane without thinking "hmm... this potentially vital switch is in a piss-poor spot... maybe I should buy a different plane type".

      If I'm test-driving a car, and the horn is located on the back-side of my headrest, you're going to be damn sure I'm not buying that car, or making them move it to a normal spot as a stipulation for me buying it. SURELY in his training and testing of the plane before or when buying it, he'd want to learn the location of... say... emergency type buttons.

      So back to John not thinking that seeing this switch might be important when buying plane.
      Designers didn't think this switch is important enough to be visible
      Whatever organization inspects plane designs didn't catch this horrible flaw before approving it.

      And yeah, at that point, it circles between designers and purchaser all not thinking. Spread the blame over all of them, not just one.

    11. Re:Complex environment, complex causes by causality · · Score: 1

      What *wasn't* in the NTSB report: the switch was behind him, in a tight space, and he couldn't see over his shoulder clearly enough to tell if the switch was in the proper place.

      That WAS in the NTSB report, in fact Denver and a mechanic discussed it, the mechanic attempted to attach a pair of vice-grips as a workaround, and Denver said he'd use the autopilot to ensure straight-and-level if he had to mess with it in flight. He also refused a refuel stating that he'd be flying for an hour.

      http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/GenPDF.asp?id=LAX98FA008&rpt=fa

      But the engineer(s) who put the switch behind the pilot's seat are just as much, if not moreso, to blame

      Actually, the aircraft wasn't engineered that way. Someone (apparently a previous owner) modified it. Denver was aware of the modification, aware of its shortcomings, had actually made arrangements to fix it permanently, attempted a failed temporary fix with an A&P mechanic, then decided to fly it anyway without making sure both tanks were full (in fact, the A&P interviewed stated that Denver had initially tried to start the engine on a tank that might have been empty, meaning Denver's attempts to change tanks would have been in vain since he switched to the only tank with an unknown quantity of fuel left before takeoff).

      Sorry, John Denver was a great singer. But the blame for the crash rests firmly on his shoulders.

      This is a perfect example of a "string of failures". Someone made an ill-considered modification to an aircraft that Denver (an experienced pilot) bought. This modification made it difficult to change tanks. Denver knew about the problem, but completely failed to mitigate it by:

      1. Not making sure he had enough fuel on board in his chosen primary tank for a short flight, 2. Not making sure he would be able to switch the tanks while in flight, 3. Apparently not ensuring that his alternate tank had any fuel in it at all, so even if he did manipulate the switch he may well have been switching from one empty to another, 4. Insisting on a short flight before he would be taking a trip that would give his A&P plenty of time to fix the problem and relocate the switch where it belonged.

      Proper handling of ANY of the four issues above could have turned the disaster into a safe flight (or at least a case of "being down here, wishing you were up there", which isn't usually fatal like "being up there, wishing you were down here" sometimes is).

      What's the compelling reason why these independently wealthy individuals who can afford private aviation never seem to spend a few hundred dollars on a good parachute? I don't know about you but if I am alone flying a plane and it's going to crash and there's no hope of stopping it, like it's completely out of fuel, then I'm going to take my chances with a little unplanned skydiving.

      --
      It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
    12. Re:Complex environment, complex causes by DerekLyons · · Score: 1

      Or, in short, you've done exactly what the mainstream media does - reduced the whole issue to one neat soundbite. That's great if all you want is a ritualistic Two Minutes Hate so you can get on with what's really important in your life - the next soundbite, the next meme, the next ritualistic Two Minutes hate.
       
      It's not really useful for actually trying to understand what happened, and how (if possible) to fix things so that it doesn't happen again.

    13. Re:Complex environment, complex causes by natehoy · · Score: 1

      Some of the higher-end private aircraft actually have a parachute built into the fuselage (See: Cirrus SR-22). But that's expensive, and most private pilots aren't the independently wealthy individuals you seem to think we are. Most of the aircraft I fly are about my age, some are quite a bit older, and I'm over 40.

      But there are two very good reasons why private pilots don't carry personal parachutes as a rule:

      First and foremost, saving your own life is a lower priority than the lives of the people on the ground. Allowing your aircraft to fly into a house or a playground is unacceptable. Keeping the folks on the ground safe almost always means riding her down all the way.

      The other, of course, is the odds of survival.

      There are VERY few circumstances that a parachute would save you that your plane would not do a BETTER job of saving you. You've got this great protective metal skin, wings, communications gear, and attitude/directional control. Why in hell would anyone give that up and count on a sheet of fragile fabric instead?

      Running out of fuel is rarely fatal. Airplanes don't fall, they glide, and you can trade altitude for airspeed and almost always make a survivable (if not necessarily pretty) landing on pretty much anything that's mostly flat.

      But even landings in trees and other very hostile environments are usually survivable if you are smart about it.

      What usually ends badly is running out of fuel and getting all panicked about it, and losing focus on the important assets you have at your disposal. First of all is your brain.

      Denver was at 500 feet or so, near a beach. That's VERY survivable, normally, if you use the assets at your disposal.

      The general procedure is sorta like this:

      ENGINE STARTS PRODUCING SILENCE

      1. Establish best-glide immediately. Gives you more time to think, more choices of landing spots, etc.

      2: Pick your landing spot and head in that general direction. Don't waffle on this - anything big, wide, and flat is pretty survivable.

      3: (not on the checklist) Take a very brief moment to accept that the aircraft is (and if necessary you are) now a disposable asset, to be used exclusively to ensure the survival of (1) people on the ground, (2) your passengers, and (3) you. In that order. While saving the aircraft would be nice, it's a really low priority.

      After you're done with that, and if you have time left before landing, you can call for help and/or start fiddling with the fuel systems.

      --
      "This post contains words, known to the State of California to cause thought. Wash brain thoroughly after reading."
    14. Re:Complex environment, complex causes by cgenman · · Score: 1

      The point of BP's report seems to be using "It's complicated" and "many people were involved" to defray blame and remove legal responsibility for the accident from BP.

      The details of cement failing to contain hydrocarbons, improper venting into the engine room, etc are all fascinating from an engineering perspective. I don't mean to downplay their value.

      But according to BP's incoming CEO: “We have said from the beginning that the explosion on the Deepwater Horizon was a shared responsibility among many entities. This report makes that conclusion even clearer, presenting a detailed analysis of the facts and recommendations for improvement both for BP and the other parties involved. We have accepted all the recommendations and are examining how best to implement them across our drilling operations worldwide." Which is basically leveraging the report into an attempt to avoid proper regulation and positive change, even as other rigs explode in the gulf.

      And really, that's the part that gets me. Sure, the cause is a complex series of events that should be studied in detail and understood, so as to be prevented in the future. But "Complex series of events" is being used by BP as shorthand for "we couldn't know" and "but now we do so no regulation is necessary."

    15. Re:Complex environment, complex causes by abigsmurf · · Score: 1

      The failures ALWAYS seem major in any big accident because for them to happen, whole safty systems have to be subverted or fail.

      To go back to the plane crash example. Almost never get planes plummeting out of the sky in a fireball because there was a single screw that failed.

      What happens was a mechanic didn't have the right type of screw so he put in another one, despite the maintenence manual saying it's vitally important to use the right screw (which they were out of stock in the hanger and to order in a new one would have kept the plane on the ground for a week, causing him to catch hell from his boss). This incorrect screw was missed by the next inspector because he was at the end of a 12 hour shift and was tired.

      During the flight the pilot saw some major turbulance on the radar and decided to descend quickly (he was under pressure to land the plane on schedule) when the pilot's handbook for that plane recommended he pulled up. Descending quickly put a lot of stress on the frame of the plane, the screw came loose, got sucked into the engine, brushed against a fuel line which ignited, causing the engine to explode. This engine had gone 11 months since it had last been serviced (when the regulations say 12 months is the limit, 6 months is best), Boeing knew there was an issue with how this engine dealt with debris and had sent out a memo saying the engines needed extra protection but that they should wait till the service before installing it.

      If you've seen documentaries on plane crashes, that's not a far fetched example of the series of events that lead up to a plane crash. Several major failures that all stack up upon each other, any one of which would've prevented the accident.

      The fact that you need so many catastrophic failures to combine may make an individual accident look bad, but in truth, the layers and layers of redundancy in terms of safty mean, that for an accident to happen, chances are, you have a freak chain of events leading up to it because that's the only way it could actually occur.

    16. Re:Complex environment, complex causes by DerekLyons · · Score: 1

      In other words, all you want is Two Minutes Hate that confirms your worldview - and you'll trivialize and hand wave until you get it.

    17. Re:Complex environment, complex causes by causality · · Score: 2, Insightful

      most private pilots aren't the independently wealthy individuals you seem to think we are

      My comment about wealth was to be understood within the context of a discussion about John Denver. As a famous, successful musician, he certainly was independently wealthy. Most of the plane crashes that are very well-known tend to involve people who are celebrities or businessmen who don't precisely have money problems, which is what I meant by "these". Right or wrong, the working stiff who can barely afford aviation and has a crash doesn't seem to get discussed years after the event.

      Regarding private pilots in more general terms... unless you are a professional pilot working for i.e. the military or a commercial airliner, then you have disposable income. You have merely chosen to allocate it towards aviation. The cost of one personal parachute should be negligible compared to what you would already invest in the airplane, hangar space, training, etc.

      You gave me a very good explanation of why parachutes probably would not result in more lives saved. They clearly are not such a great idea. However, if they would be a really good idea, then I don't know about you but personally, I am willing to go into debt if necessary when I firmly believe it's a matter of life and limb.

      Otherwise, I found your comment refreshing to say the least. It's clear that you and pilots in general have their priorities straight. There's something noble and admirable about going down with the plane if it means you can protect innocent third parties. Other than the volunteer firefighters I personally know, that isn't the sort of heroism I hear so much of these days. Thank you for that.

      --
      It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
    18. Re:Complex environment, complex causes by ukemike · · Score: 1

      Usually there are multiple causes as well as contributing factors.

      But that isn't the case here. This is a set of serial failures. Had ANY one of these many steps been done right there would have been no disaster. The implication of this is that it wasn't about any one specific cause, it is about a full scale systemic failure. Every person in the whole chain of fault is the direct cause of this disaster and should be facing charges of manslaughter and whatever other charges might apply.

      --
      -- QED
    19. Re:Complex environment, complex causes by thegarbz · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Every major incident has a complex cause, maintaining safety devices has nothing to do with it. In all major industrial accidents there are multiple failures that all need to align perfectly in order for something to go wrong. Yes each on it's own right has the potential to cause a problem, but not usually on the scale of hitting the world media.

      For example using drilling mud instead of seawater could have prevented the issue due to better pressure control.
      Operators not waiting to sound the alarm could have mitigated much of the incident and loss of life
      A BOP that had a working battery and front panel meant the well could have leaked for a day not 4 months.

      For a major industrial incident all the ducks need to be lined up in one often very unlucky row.

    20. Re:Complex environment, complex causes by Your.Master · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You are reducing cgenman's repeated and coherent explanations to a soundbite that confirms your worldview: "Two Minutes Hate". Yet your position seems to be that reducing arguments to a soundbite is a bad argument.

      Please be consistent. Or explain how your seemingly-hypocritical position here is consistent.

    21. Re:Complex environment, complex causes by Bigjeff5 · · Score: 1

      Don't you mean Anadarko?

      You know, the American company that owns 25% stake in Deepwater but has mysteriously never (at least that I've seen) been mentioned in the media. Anadarko was involved in all major financial decisions for the site, and more than likely they had people on the rig as well, and yet you hear not a peep about them

      BP went above and beyond their legal obligation with regards to the spill - which is capped at about $100 million (I think it's actually only $75mil) - and still everyone reamed them. Granted they had significant motivation beyond simply altruism, but still they should get a lot of credit for their response. Anadarko, on the other hand, hasn't pledged a single cent above their legal obligation (25% of the legal cap), and yet you hear not a word.

      Forget the lack of Trans-Ocean attacks (you know, the guys actually running the friggin rig), that one pissed me off the most. If BP is responsible, is not Anadarko as well? Is it right to expect BP to shoulder 99.99% of the cleanup costs, when they only bear 75% of the responsibility?

      --
      Security is mostly a superstition... Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. - Helen Keller
    22. Re:Complex environment, complex causes by Bigjeff5 · · Score: 1

      Good god man, do you hold nobody else responsible?

      Trans-Ocean was running the friggin rig, what about them? Frankly, I'd personally put a lot more of the blame on them. They were running the rig, they were supposed to be the experts who knew what they were doing. If a BP monkey wanted them to do something stupid, it was their job to tell them "no, this is they way it needs to be done, and this is how we are doing it". Chances are TO's corporate culture did not allow the safe running of the rig, but that's still TO's fault. They were the ones in a position to see these problems and correct them, and they did not do it.

      Failures in equipment TO certainly aren't responsible for, but frankly, neither is BP. Shit happens, there are systems in place to deal with it. Just about everything else on that rig, though, is TO's responsibility. Those systems happen to point directly at TO operators. For god's sake the instruments showed rising hydrocarbons in the pipe 40 minutes before a TO operator bothered to do anything about it. When you've just cemented a well, any hydrocarbon rise in the pipe is a glaring red flag that something has gone very, very wrong. If the operator did not recognize that as a problem, or did not know what to do about it, he should not have been operating the rig. Period.

      You say BP is trying to make themselves look good, I say they were being pretty magnanimous. The sole purpose of the operator is to ensure the rig is functioning correctly. To suggest that they should not bear a significant portion of the blame when they fail to properly run the rig is ludicrous.

      --
      Security is mostly a superstition... Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. - Helen Keller
    23. Re:Complex environment, complex causes by Bigjeff5 · · Score: 1

      How is "nu-uh, they're just trying make it look like it isn't their fault" an explanation?

      He didn't explain anything. He didn't give any examples from the report. It is not based on any fact he can produce.

      All cgenman is doing is a circumstantial ad hominem attack. It has absolutely no merit whatsoever.

      Hence DerekLyons' "Two Minutes Hate", which is exactly what it is. BP is evil, therefore everything they do must be evil. I don't think cgenman would be satisfied with a report from BP unless it results in BP being 100% to blame for every action that occurred.

      Only a blind fool would think everything is BP's fault here.

      --
      Security is mostly a superstition... Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. - Helen Keller
    24. Re:Complex environment, complex causes by Bigjeff5 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Go find the video for the Texas City oil refinery accident - it's another BP fuckup (this one they were entirely to blame for from start to finish).

      The brief rundown is as follows:

      Sensors on a particular tank were not adequate for the purposes of that tank. Basically two sensors were used to measure the fluid level, but as the fluid was never supposed to exceed a certain level sensors were never placed above that level. In other words once the fluid went above the allowed level there was no way to tell what the fluid level actually was. Start-up was a bit of an exception, and fluid levels regularly rose above the sensor level, but before too long returned to normal levels. As a result the instruments regularly went into alarm due to high-levels at start-up. Rather than fix the instruments, it became standard procedure to ignore the high level alarms during start-up.

      The operator room was supposed to be staffed by two operators, but because of recent schedule/employment changes there was only one operator on duty per shift. Also, because it was start-up (shut-down and start-up are a very big deal in any major processing facility) the operators had been working longer hours than normal, and were generally fatigued. This caused poor notes to be passed between the night shift operator and the day shift operator, and the day shift operator re-started or continued a procedure that should have been finished by the time he was on shift, and the fact that it was not was a major warning sign and should have resulted in an immediate shut-down. This confusion allowed fluid levels in the tank to rise 5-10 times safe levels, but because it was standard operating procedure to ignore the alarm, and because the sensors did not give a full picture of the situation, the operators continued unaware there was a problem. Eventually the fluid overflowed, after which there was nothing the operator could have done to fix the problem even if he was aware of it.

      The final piece of the puzzle, the mechanical safety system that triggered after the tank over-flowed, was a retrofit and as such was simply inadequate to handle the amount of fluid coming through, and the emergency vent let out a giant plume of gas, which turned to vapor and grew until it reached a truck that had been left running in the parking lot. The truck backfired due to the extra gas in the air and ignited the plume. The resulting explosion basically killed anything within 100 feet of the plant, which included a set of temporary offices and 20-30 people who had absolutely no business being anywhere near the refinery.

      The cause of the explosion was primarily the sensors on the tank, followed by over-worked and too few operators, followed by an inadequate safety system, followed by employees not following established procedures (leaving the truck running in the parking lot was against company policy). The reason so many people died was because of idiotic decisions - like putting temporary office trailers right next to a potentially dangerous phase of the refining process, which was also against company policy.

      I imagine something similar happened on DWH, except there are three or four companies involved instead of just one. It is the same kind of thing, people who should know better maintaining the status quo instead of raising hell. In the Texas City incident, the operators should have been raising hell about the inadequate sensors. The operators and their managers should have been raising hell about being over-worked and understaffed. The safety personnel should have been raising hell about the inadequate safety relief system. Plant management and the operators both should have been raising hell about the office trailers right outside a potentially dangerous area. Everyone should have been raising hell about the common but frowned upon practice of leaving vehicles running in the parking lot.

      Yet nobody did, and many people died because of it. It took a lot of things to go wrong, but wrong they went. This is how major industrial accidents happen almost every time.

      --
      Security is mostly a superstition... Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. - Helen Keller
    25. Re:Complex environment, complex causes by Bigjeff5 · · Score: 1

      Every accident is complex, yet every accident is preventable.

      It's also worth noting that this was, in fact, an accident. Nobody involved did it on purpose. They may have done stupid things, made compromises where they should not have, cut corners, etc., but nobody wanted this to happen.

      I think people forget that sometimes.

      --
      Security is mostly a superstition... Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. - Helen Keller
    26. Re:Complex environment, complex causes by Jesus_666 · · Score: 1

      Note that the original soundbite was "too many corners were cut". I interpret that as meaning that all involved parties cut corners, which added up to a structure that couldn't stand up to operator errors at all. The point made originally was that each of the involved errors should've never happened.

      Admittedly, this has shifted towards criticism of BP only later on but I think that the original soundbite does bear some validity: It seems more realistic that the involved companies decided to skim off a bit more money by skimping on safety measures rather than that such gross mistakes were done entirely by accident and that it's a mere coincidence that all of them happened at the same rig/drill site and none happened to be noticed before it was too late.

      In other words: It's possible that cutting corners was not a major contributor to the accident but it seems improbable. Thus the original soundbite seems to hold up well enough despite being an extreme reduction of a complex issue.

      --
      USE HOT GRITS WITH STATUE OF NATALIE PORTMAN (NAKED AND PETRIFIED)
    27. Re:Complex environment, complex causes by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Trans-Ocean was running the friggin rig, what about them?

      Were they running it, or just manning it? My understanding is that BP rents the rig, and that the rig owners (Transocean) supply the rig with people capable of operating it as part of the rental. But the "management" of the rig is BP's. Where to dig, how long, operating expenses, and all decision making goes to BP, with the hands on the rig going with the rig wherever it goes. Does Transocean even have a single engineer on the rig? BP and Haliburton had the "intelligence" in the operation, and the engineers responsible for it belonged to them.

      For god's sake the instruments showed rising hydrocarbons in the pipe 40 minutes before a TO operator bothered to do anything about it. When you've just cemented a well, any hydrocarbon rise in the pipe is a glaring red flag that something has gone very, very wrong. If the operator did not recognize that as a problem, or did not know what to do about it, he should not have been operating the rig. Period.

      How do you know this? How many rigs have you worked on? If none, and you learned it from the news, then how do you know it's true? Did it just agree with your opinions on the matter? When they are on the rig and see those readings, what is the documented procedure when the readings "rise" and does it depend on the absolute value as well? If there are no documented procedures, then how can you assert it to be a problem when it was identified and reported? Are you arguing about 40 minutes not being timely? Then what is timely, and what can be done about it? If nothing can really be done about it, then what does earlier reporting do, other than speed up the evacuation (which is irrelevant to the point of what caused the leak, but would speak to the liability for the loss of life)?

      You make it sound like a big deal, but without more information (and from the tone of the rest of your post) it seems that you are just reflecting information you came across elsewhere that's damaging to Transocean and supports BP. Like you made up your mind it wasn't BP negligence and are trying to prove that to people, rather than just sharing information and letting people make up their own minds.

    28. Re:Complex environment, complex causes by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      It seems to me that the majority are where parachutes would be useless, the primary one being the number of crashes on takeoff with loading above max. A parachute doesn't help when you slam into the ground shortly after takeoff. Then there's the ones lost in weather. If the weather's that bad in the mountains and such, a parachute won't be as good as in clear conditions when you wouldn't be ditching the plane. Also, would you jump out of a plane in a thunderstorm, or ride it in?

    29. Re:Complex environment, complex causes by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      BP went above and beyond their legal obligation with regards to the spill - which is capped at about $100 million (I think it's actually only $75mil) - and still everyone reamed them.

      If they were negligent, then there's no cap. If they weren't negligent, then they have statutory penalties capped at $75 million. That doesn't include the per-barrel cost of the leak. Nor the civil suits. Even if the $75 million cap was in place (And it seems BP voluntarily waived it), it would still cost them more than $20 billion. So quoting that cap is irrelevant. It's a limited cap only active in some circumstances and only on one of the many types of costs of a spill.

    30. Re:Complex environment, complex causes by cgenman · · Score: 1

      I directly quoted the incoming CEO of BP, as well as cited some of the causes listed in the report.

      The point of my post was that BP is very specifically choosing wording and trying to frame the discussion in such a way as to discourage more governmental oversight. This has nothing to do with the engineering of the problem, so much as the larger question of who gets to structure the discourse. BP's specific use of the term "complex causes," as well as their assertion that it's all well understood now and fixes are underway, is primarily to deflect the regulatory oversight that congress briefly talked up in the hopes of an easy midterm election win.

      The point of that one post on an internet bulletin board was not to get deeply into the technical explanations for the calamity (though I have read portions of the report, I haven't read the entire thing). But to comment on the way that BP's framing of the discussion around the report has crept into the way that we here were discussing the report. And that the words we were ceeding to BP were inherently designed to bias towards the opinion that "stuff happens [shrug]", thus defeating the discussion of regulatory oversight before it happens.

      And stop putting words into my mouth, jerk.

    31. Re:Complex environment, complex causes by ConfusedVorlon · · Score: 1

      pilot error yes, but accidents almost always have a combination of factors

      e.g.
      -unexpected weather
      -pilot distracted by some other event (perhaps fuel is a bit low)
      -co pilot doesn't speak up despite misgivings
      -something bad happens and isn't handled properly

      the 'something bad' might be an equipment failure that would normally be something the pilot could handle, or an unexpected event like another plane coming dangerously close.

      now in the case of flying, we can normally say 'the pilot should have been able to deal with all these things, and probably shouldn't have been in this situation' - so it is appropriate to blame pilot error

      however there is almost always a chain of events where a conservative action at an early stage could have headed off disaster.

      the same applies to outdoor sports

      -attempting a climb that is challenging
      -unexpected bad weather
      -torch battery runs out
      -pair decide to push on rather than tie themselves to the ledge and call for help
      -something bad happens

      the only really useful lesson as an indvidual is to try to identify when stress-factors are building up, and take conservative action to get out of the situation.

      the vital lesson when designing something like an oil rig is that there will be multiple pressures (drilling running late, exceeding budget, operators tired due to heavy drinking night, weather bad, concrete casing not as good as it could have been)*** - and that there will be multiple failures. You have to try to design a system that is safe even when people f**k up.

      ***I'm not suggesting these applied to the BP case, just making up some examples

    32. Re:Complex environment, complex causes by ConfusedVorlon · · Score: 1

      Or you could say that Denver knew the plane (or should have), and should certainly have considered what would happen if he needed to switch tanks and trained himself to be able to do that.

      this comes down to who takes responsibility.

      In a consumer item a drive-on lawnmower, it is appropriate to assume that your driver is an idiot, and the engineer should do everything possible to make it hard for them to mess up.

      In an aircraft, we are talking about trained pilots who get type-rated on particular planes. It is more reasonable to say that sometimes you take design decisions which will require the operator to know what he/she is doing and deal with some inconvenient kit.

      this wasn't a hidden flaw - it was an entirely open flaw which the pilot chose to accept.

      When I flew, part of the checklist for every flight was to check the fuel selector - I'm assuming the same would have applied here, So Denver knew (or should have known) that the fuel selector was not user-friendly and should have planned/trained accordingly.

      There may have been no good reason for this selector to be where it was, but I think it is a dangerous path if you argue that all equipment has to be easy to use. Perhaps putting the selector where it was makes the plane cheaper to build, or allows a safer routing of the fuel pipes, or allows other controls to be put in safer positions.

      I want engineers to have a free rein in what they build for an expert market like this. That means the pilot has to make an informed decision on whether to accept the plane.

    33. Re:Complex environment, complex causes by mvdwege · · Score: 1

      Here's a concept for you that you might find shocking: due diligence.

      Why the fuck are you shilling for BP like this? They hide behind contractors they hired in the first place. Since when does that mean they get to freely wash their hands of their underlings' actions?

      Mart

      --
      "I know I will be modded down for this": where's the option '-1, Asking for it'?
  4. String of Failures by c++0xFF · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Of course it was a string of failures. I don't care if it's an oil rig or a software bug, it usually takes more than one failure before a problem actually surfaces. It's usually a combination of physical defects, human error, and process failures ... but it takes the entire sequence to fail before something goes wrong.

    The longer it takes for a problem to be discovered, the more failures probably exist in the chain. Honestly, I'd be more scared if only a couple things went wrong.

    1. Re:String of Failures by BuckaBooBob · · Score: 2, Insightful

      But Seriously... In the end it was a lack of BP's oversight to watch over everything to prevent this type of disaster.. This is probably the biggest thing that wrong with big business and politics.. There is no accountability anymore (If there ever was). This appears to be a PR Campaign to draw attention away from BP's faults.. In the end the only lesson that will be learned will be that a good PR campaign after a disaster can work wonders.

      --
      Who needs WiFi when we can have Packet Over Sheep! http://datacomm.org/PoS-InternetDraft.txt
    2. Re:String of Failures by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      One error, or mistake or failure is one thing, two is plain bad luck, three or more, it's no longer excusable. It's 2010, the other day I saw on TV how they checked weldings for cracks and imperfections ...

    3. Re:String of Failures by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Eh? BP seems to be taking the can (it's stumping up billions). Everyone else involved has been in hiding.

    4. Re:String of Failures by Chucky_M · · Score: 1

      But Seriously... In the end it was a lack of BP's oversight to watch over everything to prevent this type of disaster.. This is probably the biggest thing that wrong with big business and politics.. There is no accountability anymore (If there ever was). This appears to be a PR Campaign to draw attention away from BP's faults.. In the end the only lesson that will be learned will be that a good PR campaign after a disaster can work wonders.

      Close, it was the lack of governmental oversight, lax regulations and what seems a lot like corruption in government circles to anything related to black gold. This is why the boss man came out pointing fingers at BP before anyone knew what happened, this helped stop people looking for other causes albeit temporarily.

  5. Just like Clemens... by PmanAce · · Score: 1, Insightful

    There is nothing surprising about an entity shifting the blame onto others to try and save their own asses, human nature. "From incorrectly using seawater instead of drilling fluid" I can't even imagine how dumb one must be to substitute one fluid for the other. That would be like a mechanic using gasoline instead of wiper fluid, something that you just don't do or think about, period. Even if heads roll, are oil companies going to change?

    --
    Tired of my customary (Score:1)
    1. Re:Just like Clemens... by The+Moof · · Score: 2, Informative

      The others have already responded to the claims, dumping the fault right back at BP. This is going to be interesting

    2. Re:Just like Clemens... by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      Well "Resurfacing Lubricant" is effectively distilled water... it's purified water. "Drilling fluid" used to take pressure measurements might be purified water, which idiots might wave away because it costs money and they have tons of money.

    3. Re:Just like Clemens... by Zerth · · Score: 1

      Switching from drilling fluid to seawater is more like using a 5% component instead of a 1% component. Fine if the situation isn't marginal, but it'll fail when things go wrong.

    4. Re:Just like Clemens... by lostsoulz · · Score: 1

      "Drilling fluid" used to take pressure measurements might be purified water, which idiots might wave away because it costs money and they have tons of money.

      Er, drilling fluid is a thixotropic fluid used to carry cuttings to the surface, lubricate, cool, support the drill string and exert a hydrostatic head. It can be water-based or oil-based (effectively an oil/water emulsion.) The list of additives is as long as your arm and designed to meet the engineering requirements at any point in the drilling phase. It'll usually be circulated out prior to abandonment or pre-production completion.

    5. Re:Just like Clemens... by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      I didn't know that. And besides, my point was more "Fluid X seems to be similar to Fluid Y, and I have plenty of Fluid Y and don't understand what I'm doing so I'll just use that." It's entirely possible people don't understand the difference between oil and water.

      My grandfather used to work for GM building cars, and he thinks Mobil/Valvoline/Castrol are no better than the $1.25 quarts of Shell oil you get at the gas station. To be fair, I think back then they threw a ton of ZDDP into oil, so oil composition wasn't so much a big deal; these days they want catalytic converters to last 300,000 miles and thus the EPA mandates low ZDDP levels (low enough that the engine won't outlast the cat). I buy Valvoline SynPower because it has replacement additives that take the place of ZDDP; but I'm not above pouring STP Engine Treatment (ZDDP in synthetic oil) into my engine.

      Now really, do you expect your average mechanic to know all that about oil? They know the manufacturer mandates Mobil 1 full synthetic for this particular model; they know Wankels can't run synthetic; and they know you need to change your oil. The full composition of oil is irrelevant. Someone who hasn't worked on thousands of cars, however, might decide that they can run decent Castrol conventional in their high-end sports car because synthetic is just a silly scam and you just change the oil every 3000 miles instead of 5000....

      Pressure measurements using a working fluid rely a lot on viscosity, compressibility, thermal expansion, and the like. It's entirely possible idiots might say, "Well this isn't lubing anything, we'll just use a fluid... water." Seems reasonable when you think about it in a limited knowledge sphere.

  6. Did they list corruption? by DoofusOfDeath · · Score: 3, Insightful

    You know, the sex and other perks that bought off the regulators?

    Or the part where they pencilled in the report forms on behalf of the inspectors, who would then trace them over in pen?

    I can see how that would slip their minds.

    1. Re:Did they list corruption? by sribe · · Score: 2, Informative

      You know, the sex and other perks that bought off the regulators?

      You're confused. The sex and cocaine was in the Denver office and related to mining in the West ;-)

    2. Re:Did they list corruption? by DriedClexler · · Score: 2, Funny

      So when they talked about "offshore drilling rights", they meant the term literally? I thought that was just a euphemism for hookers on cruise ships!

      --
      Information theory is life. The rest is just the KL divergence.
    3. Re:Did they list corruption? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hey, hey. That's not fair. The failings of the government regulators can not be laid at the feet of BP or their contractors. That the government regulators were so easy to buy off (with whores and other perks) is not BP's fault. That comes from an institutional culture that believes the bullshit "less regulation is better" mantra that has so permeated public thought, and thereby, politics, since the 1980's. Government exists (in other words, is elected and funded) to protect the commons. That role clearly extends to the oversight of industry or other activities that could threaten the commons. Our government failed, utterly, to carry out that responsibility. The blame for that, ultimately, lies with the voters.

  7. Ohhhhhhhhh by Sparckus · · Score: 5, Funny

    Who lives in a pineapple under the sea

    SPONGEBOB SQUAREPANTS!

    Who died in an oil spill because of BP

    SPONGEBOB SQUAREPANTS!

    1. Re:Ohhhhhhhhh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't know anything about Spongebob... some weird vile creature to me... and I guess you were referencing a song in the show. I found the joke super funny anyway.

    2. Re:Ohhhhhhhhh by blackraven14250 · · Score: 1

      It's the theme song.

    3. Re:Ohhhhhhhhh by pak9rabid · · Score: 1

      I don't know anything about Spongebob... some weird vile creature to me... and I guess you were referencing a song in the show. I found the joke super funny anyway.

      Is that a true story?

    4. Re:Ohhhhhhhhh by IrquiM · · Score: 3, Funny

      Who died in an oil spill because of BP SPONGEBOB SQUAREPANTS!

      Guess it wasn't as bad as I thought then....

      --
      This is blinging
    5. Re:Ohhhhhhhhh by AndrewNeo · · Score: 1

      The placement of the syllables in this always throws me off.

      Who|lives|in|a |pine| ap - |ple| un- |der|the|sea
      Who|died |in|an|oil |spill |be-|cause|of | B | P

      </nerd>

    6. Re:Ohhhhhhhhh by ZaphDingbat · · Score: 1

      I normally pronounce "oil" as "oy-yul," making it that much harder.

    7. Re:Ohhhhhhhhh by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      Well then at least SOME good came from that catastrophe!

    8. Re:Ohhhhhhhhh by Bigjeff5 · · Score: 1

      Me too, since I'm not southern I have to modify the song a bit to:

      Who died in an oil spill 'cause of BP.

      Oyl vs oy-il vs oy-yul.

      --
      Security is mostly a superstition... Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. - Helen Keller
  8. If the pipe doesn't fit, you must acquit by Orga · · Score: 1

    Only upside for BP for going forward. All the partners have refused to take any responsibility and I think BP will only gain as more evidence points towards other than just at themeselves.

  9. Rebuttles by Bill+Dimm · · Score: 3, Informative
    1. Re:Rebuttles by Scorch_Mechanic · · Score: 1

      Obviously BP needs to make some re-rebuttles now. Buttles for everybody!

      --
      You should turn signatures off.
    2. Re:Rebuttles by Bill+Dimm · · Score: 1

      Should be "rebuttals." Sorry.

    3. Re:Rebuttles by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      His name's not Tuttle, it's Buttle!

    4. Re:Rebuttles by sjames · · Score: 1

      Mr. Simpson, would you care to present your rebuttal?

    5. Re:Rebuttles by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      No kidding they do. As a company I wouldn't be sitting around waiting for someone to hang me either. But the reality is that ALL OF THEM individually could have prevented the disaster. For an incident of this scale, a lot of very unlucky events must line up exactly right for this to go wrong. It could have been prevented in a multitude of different ways.

  10. Translation -- We believe in teamwork! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    :)

  11. jerk offs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If you were affected by the spill

    Or in other words, if you live on the planet earth....

  12. Seawater Vs Drilling Fluid by eldavojohn · · Score: 1

    "From incorrectly using seawater instead of drilling fluid" I can't even imagine how dumb one must be to substitute one fluid for the other. That would be like a mechanic using gasoline instead of wiper fluid, something that you just don't do or think about, period. Even if heads roll, are oil companies going to change?

    I'm no drilling expert. I read the articles (but not the whole report) and, as the submitter, I guess I failed to explain that the articles seem to imply that at some point it's okay to switch from drilling fluid to seawater when the rig is recognized as very stable. You take readings and measurements to determine when this is safe. Apparently there were a lot of misjudgments from both Transocean and BP. You would think they would be a lot better at this by now. Sure you can outline all the pressures both companies had to make this thing that was behind schedule run flawlessly but personally I'm happy that six or seven things had to go wrong to lead to this ... I'm unhappy that it seems to be companies just pushing the process further by ignoring/misreading warning signs. Do they switch to seawater to save money?

    According to the article, if they had stuck with drilling fluid instead of switching to the lighter seawater, a blowout would have been prevented. Instead they made history. Perhaps next time their gamble will be in favor of their worker's lives and the environment?

    --
    My work here is dung.
    1. Re:Seawater Vs Drilling Fluid by lostsoulz · · Score: 1

      I'm no drilling expert. I read the articles (but not the whole report) and, as the submitter, I guess I failed to explain that the articles seem to imply that at some point it's okay to switch from drilling fluid to seawater when the rig is recognized as very stable

      Displacing a well to seawater is not at all uncommon and is done for a variety of reasons - it's not a gamble. In this case, had the crew spotted returns from the well a little earlier, they would have controlled the kick that became a blowout.

  13. there's another way to say it. by swschrad · · Score: 2, Insightful

    "But Ma, everybody did it."

    BP, you're still getting a spanking. you're supposed to set an example, not lead a gang.

    --
    if this is supposed to be a new economy, how come they still want my old fashioned money?
    1. Re:there's another way to say it. by CannonballHead · · Score: 1

      There is something wrong with the the disciplinary ideology of "Ma" if everyone is at fault but only one gets spanked.

    2. Re:there's another way to say it. by Stevecrox · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I read the BBC article on the spill, they hardly said that. Halliburton apparently installed sub standard concrete which should have failed inspection but was somehow passed. Transocean/BP made a number of procedural failures and and a pressure test showed the problem days before it happened and was missed by drilling crew and BP.

      How does that translate to "everybody's doing it?".

      Considering it was a rig owned by BP, operated by Transocean and installed by Haliburton, with parts made by dozens of other companies it would be pretty impressive if the cause was purely BP's fault.

      I still think the US government lept on a bandwagon in order to install a US CEO, who amusingly was far more involved with the rig than the then CEO.

    3. Re:there's another way to say it. by Herkum01 · · Score: 1

      While the cause was not directly BP's fault, they were looking the other way while the work got done. It is not like the stumbled into these problems, they ignored them and blamed others for their lack of involvement.

      Simple question, who would have been getting the oil and selling it if everything worked out? BP, so they should bare ultimate responsibility because they were going to be the ones who profited.

    4. Re:there's another way to say it. by rk2z · · Score: 1

      Correction the rig was owned by TransOcean who was contracted by BP to do the drilling and most of the employees on the rig were TransOcean employees

      --
      This is a sig, there are many like it, but this is mine.
    5. Re:there's another way to say it. by Xest · · Score: 1

      Even with that logic BP doesn't deserve all responsibility because they only held a 75% share in the well, a large portion of the remaining 25% of profits would've gone to Anadarko, a US company, amongst others, and yet they're trying to weasel out of it, and the US press and politicians are letting them.

      But there are other fundamental problems with your line of thought- sure the likes of Halliburton and Transocean don't profit directly from the oil itself, but they most certainly profit from the oil indirectly- they sure as hell don't do all that work for BP for free, and this in itself begs questions- was the wrong cement used because BP wanted to increase it's profit margins by having the job done on the cheap, or was the wrong cement used because Halliburton wanted to increase it's profit margins on the contract to do the work for BP?

      It doesn't really matter how you try and justify it- responsibility, profits, personnel, ultimately BP wasn't the only stakeholder in any of these regions, so in every case the responsibility must go to companies other than just BP.

      It's simply not just BP at fault here, a lot of companies are to blame, yet ironically BP is the only one thus far that has accepted responsibility for it's share of the problem.

    6. Re:there's another way to say it. by lostsoulz · · Score: 1

      Considering it was a rig owned by BP, operated by Transocean and installed by Haliburton

      Correction, it was a Gen IV semisub owned by Transocean and operated by BP. Halliburton were the cement service company.

    7. Re:there's another way to say it. by Bigjeff5 · · Score: 1

      The rig was owned and operated by Trans-Ocean.

      BP owned the rights to the oil, and hired Trans-Ocean to do the drilling.

      And of course, the US Govt. signed off on all the inspections (whether or not they actually happened).

      --
      Security is mostly a superstition... Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. - Helen Keller
    8. Re:there's another way to say it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > Considering it was a rig owned by BP, operated by Transocean

      Nope - it was entirely owned by Transocean.

  14. On a side note by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    Just to prove how NASA mission has gone astray... Why does NASA have not only the desire, expertise, or the capability to test a BOP? Since when has ocean drilling even a part of space exploration? Or any drilling for that matter? And why the FUCK is NASA the only expert around to be able to help the stranded miners? They spend all their money on everything but space exploration lately, it's no wonder their shit breaks when out in space. They spend all their money trying to be a jack of all trades.

    1. Re:On a side note by chrb · · Score: 3, Informative

      Since when has ocean drilling even a part of space exploration? Or any drilling for that matter?

      One of the anticipated problems of future space missions is that humans will need to find resources outside of the Earth environment. The amount of energy required to lift materials out of the gravity well of our planet is huge, so it makes sense to explore other options. NASA has researched laser drilling, deep drilling Mars for water, Moon drilling, low energy mobile drilling etc. NASA's remit is not just shooting satellites into orbit, it is also to conduct early stage R&D for exactly this kind of stuff.

      And why the FUCK is NASA the only expert around to be able to help the stranded miners?

      NASA employs many experts with the skills to do detailed drilling, modelling and geologic and seismic analysis.

      Why does NASA have not only the desire, expertise, or the capability to test a BOP?

      Who would you rather have test it? Deep sea drilling is a tight-knit industry. I would be surprised if there were any independent testing labs for this technology.

    2. Re:On a side note by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      |> And why the FUCK is NASA the only expert around to be able to help the stranded miners?

      |NASA employs many experts with the skills to do detailed drilling, modelling and geologic and seismic analysis.

      You forgot the most important aspect of their contribution: NASA has great experience dealing with small crews that spend a long time in isolation in extreme conditions, and they have studied the psychological effects extensively.

    3. Re:On a side note by lostsoulz · · Score: 1

      Who would you rather have test it? Deep sea drilling is a tight-knit industry. I would be surprised if there were any independent testing labs for this technology

      I'll assume you don't work in the oilfield. However, pressure control equipment is subject to a variety of tests (operational and periodic.) Generally, certification is handled by an organisation like Bureau Veritas or the American Bureau of Shipping. Deep sea drilling is no more tight-knit than any other heavy engineering industry.

  15. One of the BP employee success stories? by LiquidLink57 · · Score: 0

    The guy who said, "Drill right here."

    Clearly, he picked a pretty good spot.

  16. It wasn't failure by countertrolling · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It's company policy to forgo safety for increased profits. History is full of this. They took a gamble and got beat by a pair of deuces. But they have accountants to take care of it all. The main issue hasn't changed, and we'll be speculating on the the next disaster soon enough.

    --
    For justice, we must go to Don Corleone
    1. Re:It wasn't failure by demachina · · Score: 1

      And after they were beat by a pair of deuces they wrote a 100+ page report that tried to shift most of the blame on to Transocean and Halliburton. This report is mostly a white wash to be used in a decade's worth of law suits and was largely discredited the second it was released. It tries to shift much of the blame on Haliburton's cement plug though Haliburton has a pretty extensive email trail showning BP demanded they do it a certain way and they strenuously warned BP there was a high risk of a dangerous gas leak if they did.

      --
      @de_machina
    2. Re:It wasn't failure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's capitalism's policy actually. Don't blame the company!

    3. Re:It wasn't failure by Notquitecajun · · Score: 1

      I'm speculating on BP right now. It's at around $38/share, went down as low as about $35. It WAS in the 60s under the current price of oil. If/when they get past this, it's a good stock play.

    4. Re:It wasn't failure by loshwomp · · Score: 1

      I'm speculating on BP right now. It's at around $38/share, went down as low as about $35.

      I think you meant to say BP hit a low of $26.75 in late June. That's a huge difference, whether you're speculating or not.

    5. Re:It wasn't failure by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      beat by a pair of deuces

      This says it all. But not against BP, against the process industry in general. There will be an industry defining event every 5-10 years with massive loss of life and or environmental damage. Some from companies which on the surface seemed quite fine and in control. It's just a matter of when.

    6. Re:It wasn't failure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...it's a good stock play.

      Damn! You make sound like it was intentional.. A little larceny in all of us, I suppose :-)

    7. Re:It wasn't failure by Bigjeff5 · · Score: 1

      I can't understand how the company who operated the rig that failed and the company that installed and maintained the failed blowout preventer could not be to blame for the spill.

      What, were BP guys going around loosening screws behind Trans-Ocean and Haliburton's backs?

      I recognize that it was BP's responsibility to be sure that Trans-Ocean and Haliburton were doing their jobs correctly, and that BP failed miserably (possibly even criminally), but that doesn't change the fact that it was Trans-Ocean's job to run the rig safely and Haliburton's job to ensure the safety equipment was properly installed and properly maintained. It's what BP paid them for.

      How could they not be the ones to blame? BP can still be responsible for the damage that people they hired caused. Doubly so if BP's own actions encouraged the behaviors that caused the damage. There is no incongruity there. BP may have helped them do it, but it was TO and Haliburton who actually did it. They should be held accountable for that.

      --
      Security is mostly a superstition... Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. - Helen Keller
    8. Re:It wasn't failure by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      Errr ... If by shifted the blame on to Transocean and Halliburton you really mean wrote a lengthy report showing each individual point of failure and saying how it contributed, where most of the failures where the result of operation and analysis of results then yeah sure.

      I'm sorry you feel bad that some US companies were implicated in this, but for an incident like this to occur a laundry list of layers of protection must fail all at the same time. Transocean and Halliburton both had some, BP had a lot. Go read the report not the tabloid, it actually implicates BP in a lot more than you think.

      By the way Halliburton had plenty of options if they felt that what they did do/didn't do/were prevented of doing wrong. By doing nothing they are just as much to blame for the cementing job as BP.

    9. Re:It wasn't failure by Notquitecajun · · Score: 1

      True enough, I thought about jumping in way too late. BP is on its way back, so I still should make some money.

  17. Link to the report page by Orgasmatron · · Score: 1
    --
    See that "Preview" button?
  18. tactical nuke by joe2tiger · · Score: 1

    My comment is hindsight, but does anyone think the damage done would have been less if we utilized a tactical nuke at the site of the spill?

    1. Re:tactical nuke by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My comment is hindsight, but does anyone think the damage done would have been less if we utilized a tactical nuke at the site of the spill?

      No.

      Conventional explosives are used to put out wellhead fires (by consuming available oxygen) on the surface of the earth - the only way to use explosives to seal an undersea well is to cram a big pile of explosives deep (as in thousands of feet) below the earth, so that the cavity created by the explosion is completely beneath the surface, and collapses in on itself.

      Since you can't put boxcars of dynamite into such a confined space, conventional explosives are out, and nukes are an option. But...

      1) You'd have to spend a long time drilling a second bore into which to put the nuke. (And unlike those 60s-70s underground nuclear tests, you'd be drilling your bore into a place with gobs of high-pressure oil and gas down there just itching to blow out, which is how you got into this mess in the first pace!)

      2) You'd have to find a nuke, and the only nukes around are those that were built to be carried on airplanes or rockets and dropped or flown to their destinations. Military submarines don't go down anywhere near 5000 feet, so there's never been any need for a nuclear depth charge that can withstand that sort of pressure. So you'd probably have to do some interesting things to it to make sure it still worked with a mile or so of water pressure trying to squish it.

      3) The things you'd have to do to make a nuke work at 5000 feet would probably be along the lines of putting it in a really tiny deep-sea submersible, and those kinds of things would make the bore required in step #1 pretty darn wide.

      I like nukes as much as any glowing-blue-blooded American. It's a cool idea, but given the time constraints, it would probably have taken longer to solve the engineering problems posed by the nuke as it took to drill the relief wells. The right option was to work with the multitude of low-risk, high-reward options, which is what they did.

    2. Re:tactical nuke by natehoy · · Score: 1

      Apparently it worked a couple of times for the Russians.

      But, to be honest, who knows?

      The nuke would have shifted the seabed, which of course is the point, since moving many tons of seabed around a hole has a net effect of filling the hole, and the shockwave would hold the oil in place long enough for a few thousand tons of stuff to settle down over the hole. So in terms of the damage done by that specific hole in the crust "MISSION ACCOMPLISHED", rent a flight suit and a carrier and instant photo op.

      But that area was chosen because, well, the crust is pretty thin there. Using a tactical nuke would, in theory, be a very effective way of drilling a very large hole very fast through a thin crust. Whether that hole is desirable or not.

      http://xkcd.com/748/

      Michael Bay scenario for this one:

      Day one: "Bad news: We had a blowout and we're losing 5,000 barrels of oil into the ocean."
      RABBLE RABBLE!

      Day two: Obama authorizes the release of a tactical nuke strike, planning begins.

      Day three: First CNN animation of the plan is aired.

      Day eleven: BBBBBOOOOOMMMMMMM!!! And some cool videos hit the news.

      Day twelve: "Good news: We filled the small hole, and stopped the 5,000 barrel per day leak." YAY! Rejoicing and self-congratulation at how clever us monkeys are.

      Day thirteen: The ocean suddenly turns black over a large area.

      Day fourteen: "Bad news: We made a new one the size of Rhode Island, and 50,000 barrels per SECOND are leaking out, and have been for two days now."

      Day seventeen: the contamination hits the Pacific ocean after traveling across the Atlantic, hermetically sealing ocean water. Water oxygen temperatures drop, sea life starts to die, drop in evaporation shuts down cloud formation. Droughts start.

      Day sixty: the water riots are over, only because the last human has died of thirst or poisoning from drinking contaminated water.

      Actually, the real Michael Bay response would probably end in "Day nineteen, someone sets the worldwide ocean slick on fire, starting a spreading conflagration that consumes all oxygen in the atmosphere in a week."

      --
      "This post contains words, known to the State of California to cause thought. Wash brain thoroughly after reading."
    3. Re:tactical nuke by Bigjeff5 · · Score: 1

      You'd have to be an idiot to think a tactical nuke is the way to go.

      For one thing, it's never been done under water.

      For another thing, it only worked three out of the five times the Russians tried it.

      Do you really want to try something that is definitely going to cause severe damage to the environment (nuclear radiation in the Gulf Stream - that sounds great!) for something that only has a 60% success rate in ideal conditions?

      As for the environmental damage, it's pretty hard to find any information about any damage related to the spill. Aside from a few tarballs and a handful of coated animals, there is been nothing. In fact, not a single piece of seafood from the gulf has shown any sort of contamination, and this is five months after the fact. About 350 acres of wetlands have been damaged, but you compare that to the 15,000 acres of wetlands Louisiana loses every year and you realize it's almost nothing.

      In fact, the only articles I can find after May/Jun suggest the environmental damage has been exaggerated. To avoid citing Fox News, which is so reviled here but also happens to be the only news agency with an article on the environmental impacts of the spill in the last month, here's an excerpt from a June 29 Times article:

      Marine scientist Ivor van Heerden, another former LSU prof, who's working for a spill-response contractor, says, "There's just no data to suggest this is an environmental disaster. I have no interest in making BP look good — I think they lied about the size of the spill — but we're not seeing catastrophic impacts." Van Heerden, like just about everyone else working in the Gulf these days, is being paid from BP's spill-response funds. "There's a lot of hype, but no evidence to justify it."

      Yeah, I'm very glad we didn't listen to idiots like you.

      --
      Security is mostly a superstition... Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. - Helen Keller
    4. Re:tactical nuke by joe2tiger · · Score: 1

      I only asked a question, I didn't state that I think a tactical nuke would be the way to go. My question was just a simple thought experiment.

  19. Two US companies.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    had a leading role in this disaster, along with BP.

    They've refused (so far) to contribute to the disaster relief effort and let BP carry the can. No doubt their lawyers have advised them to do this, in the US its the easiest thing in the world to offload the blame onto Johnny Foreigner, by denying all culpability from the get-go.

    Now we're waiting for a US Government report on failed equipment provided by one of their major contractors. Do you think the US report is going to call "Stinking Fish" on their own people? No, given the Presidential posturing during the crisis, I can see where the official finger of sole blame will point...

  20. Snore by kenp2002 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Until people go to jail for the deaths what point or purpose does any of this mean? Wealth clearly puts a person above the law and above manslaughter charges. It's that simple. Arguing the fingerpointing is wasted energy since, regardless of the fault, no one will be held accountable. The government will take a bribe in the form of a penalty\fine and all the PEOPLE who lead to the deaths will walk free. The only time the wealthy suffer consequences is when they harm other wealthy people.

    --
    -=[ Who Is John Galt? ]=-
    1. Re:Snore by tibman · · Score: 1

      I'm with you. But what if the rig crew were also at fault and helped cause the disaster (like the report indicates)? I'm asking.. What if they killed themselves?

      --
      http://soylentnews.org/~tibman
    2. Re:Snore by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Until people go to jail for the deaths what point or purpose does any of this mean? Wealth clearly puts a person above the law and above manslaughter charges. It's that simple. Arguing the fingerpointing is wasted energy since, regardless of the fault, no one will be held accountable. The government will take a bribe in the form of a penalty\fine and all the PEOPLE who lead to the deaths will walk free. The only time the wealthy suffer consequences is when they harm other wealthy people.

      If you kill somebody else in an accident, you don't go to jail. If it was due to your stupidity, you can be sued in civil court. There are lots of cases where it appears corporations have more rights than people, but responsibility for deaths of individuals isn't one of them. In fact, this is one situation where corporations have more to lose, since in a civil case they're going to lose more money, whereas you're going to declare bankruptcy and move on.

  21. Hurp Derp by spun · · Score: 1

    "They" aren't that smart. The only real conspiracy is the conspiracy to get people to believe that somewhere out there, there are human beings smart enough to pull off a real conspiracy. It makes people feel better to think that someone, even someone evil, has a grasp on things and is in control. Ego likes to feel that it is possible for Ego to be in control. It is not possible.

    --
    - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    1. Re:Hurp Derp by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "They" aren't that smart. The only real conspiracy is the conspiracy to get people to believe that somewhere out there, there are human beings smart enough to pull off a real conspiracy. It makes people feel better to think that someone, even someone evil, has a grasp on things and is in control. Ego likes to feel that it is possible for Ego to be in control. It is not possible.

      the conspirators are not really so smart. they leave evidence everywhere. it is you who are so stupid not to see it. that's why the public education system is so important to governments everywhere.

    2. Re:Hurp Derp by spun · · Score: 1

      You still believe in the primacy of Ego, that a finite Ego can control the infinite universe. Ego is not in control, it is merely a link in the unbroken chain of cause and effect. Like most egotists, you seek to elevate Ego to the status of uncaused cause. It isn't. Conspiracy theories make the Ego feel good. They are masturbatory.

      Sure, there may be people attempting conspiracies, but those people can not comprehend even the most basic and obvious of unintended consequences that spring up from any attempt to exert control. Conspiracies are their own undoing.

       

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    3. Re:Hurp Derp by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You still believe in the primacy of Ego, that a finite Ego can control the infinite universe. Ego is not in control, it is merely a link in the unbroken chain of cause and effect. Like most egotists, you seek to elevate Ego to the status of uncaused cause. It isn't. Conspiracy theories make the Ego feel good. They are masturbatory.

      Conspiracy theories make Egor feels good... Egor can has cheezburger...

  22. Link to New Orleans Times-Picayune story by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The Times-Picayune published a story on this subject a few days ago. Key quote: "Despite the well's orneriness, the engineers repeatedly chose to take quicker, cheaper and ultimately more dangerous actions, compared with available options. Even when they acknowledged limited risks, they seemed to consider each danger in a vacuum, never thinking the combination of bad choices would add up to a total well blowout."

    http://www.nola.com/news/gulf-oil-spill/index.ssf/2010/09/5_key_human_errors_colossal_me.html

  23. That's not the problem by kimvette · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Who did what which led up to the leak is not the major issue in most people's minds, I think. Accidents can and will happen. This same type of accident will happen again sooner or later. Whether anyone involved was negligent in the construction or if it was unknown factors leading up to the explosion and leak is immaterial.

    What is upsetting about the issue is that the responsibility of the response (or lack thereof) falls into the laps of both BP and the Obama administration. Here is the list of problems I see:

    * The rig operator (BP?) is supposed to have rapid response plans and technology in place should an event occur
    * BP execs sat with their thumbs up their asses trying to save money by serializing plugging attempts, instead of readying the efforts in parallel so in the event that one attempt fails the next could be engaged within hours rather than weeks
    * BP was allowed to use dispersants which take 50,000 years to break down, just to minimize the appearance of the leak. BP took advantage and released tens of thousands more gallons per day than allowed, and refused to cut back even after the EPA told them to cut back. If they had not used dispersants, the oil would have been more likely to form tarballs sooner, and bacteria/fungus that feeds on hyrocarbon compounds would have started to break it down more quickly. They ought to have let nature take its course rather than allow it to disperse and spread much faster. Now the fish in that region are going to be contaminated and who the hell knows what that will do to offspring - and children who eat that fish.
    * They fought against press coverage tooth and nail, even though photographic and video footage would help to ascertain the extent of the damage and assist in planning the next response action
    * the United States government turned it into a total clusterfuck by refusing help from the Netherlands (who have extensive experience responding rapidly to this sort of thing), refused to proactively clean the spill before it reached shore, and actively blocked the state of Louisiana from taking action. They also did much to shield BP and Haliburton by enforcing no-fly zones and restricting access by boats and to contaminated shoreline

    Now, people love to slam Bush for not letting the fed jump in when Katrina hit - what they refuse to accept is that Federal law prohibits the federal government from interfering in such cases unless assistance is first requested and a state of emergency is declared, or the local government becomes incapacitated. Where Louisiana (New Orleans in particular) refused assistance, the Bush administration could hardly be blamed for not interfering. Eventually commons sense overruled the red tape and the feds stepped in even as the mayor and governor insisting they could handle it (uh, right. They blew it.). And yet, Bush is slammed for "hating black people" even though he was paralyzed by federal law and could not legally act even though the fed was mobilized to do so.

    The Obama administration had jurisdiction to handle anything offshore and could have taken many steps to protect the shoreline: accept help from European nations, immediately order BP to commission more ships, at BP cost, to deploy booms and to hire skimmers, and to allow the Louisiana government to act since they were prepared to mobilize to protect their own interests. They failed at every turn and it was not a case of nonfeasance, or failing to act as the law requires, but malfeasance. The Fed went out of its way to slow down response, seemingly to protect BP and Haliburton, which greatly increased contamination. The Obama administration actively blocked action at every turn, and yet is praised for how it handled/is handling the situation? Had we accepted help from European nations, and had we allowed Louisiana to act locally, much of the shallow water marine life would have been spared this contamination.

    I don't take issue with the accident, although if it is due to negligence I believe

    --
    The Christian Right is Neither (Christian nor right). See: Matthew 23, Matthew 25, Ezekiel 16:48-50
    1. Re:That's not the problem by dbIII · · Score: 1

      the United States government turned it into a total clusterfuck by refusing help from the Netherlands

      Wasn't that a case of "get your paperwork in order and come back tommorrow". An annoying delay that shouldn't have happened I know, but by the time I had heard from ranters here about "refusing help from the Netherlands" the Dutch boats were already in the gulf. How the fuck can you blame Obama for the actions of a Customs clerk especially since it looks like superiors overrode it anyway probably before Obama even heard about it? Also how is something so minor to the situation "a total clusterfuck". I suggest going and finding something real to blame the President on instead of being lazy and blowing something like this out of proportion.

    2. Re:That's not the problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Err niceone dickward. Bacteria and fungus take longer to break down tarballs than dispersed oil. That's one of the main benefits of using the dispersant.

      And fighting the press? Really? Take a look at just how much press footage there was. Or are you referring to the press not being allowed to fly over because of all the planes in the area being used for surveying and dispersants? Or when the press complain that they weren't allowed to take a tourist ride on the water skimming boats (notice the pictures of these boats show people nearly in space suits because as much as people don't want to believe it oil is frigging dangerous to your health).

      While you're blaming all sorts of useless things, why not blame the press for getting in the way of a good cleanup operation.

  24. obviously some bueracratic cock-up in sector 7G by Thud457 · · Score: 1

    His name is Harry T uttle!

    --

    the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff

  25. BP is Public Enemy #1 by CitizenPlusPlus · · Score: 1

    Clearly its time to revoke BPs corporate charter!! 

  26. 193 pages by DarthVain · · Score: 1

    of a big hand point blame to someone else.

    Personally I am waiting for Halibuton and Transocean's reports to see how many pages they can draw point fingers on.

    Whichever one is longest wins.

  27. Who's to blame by sjames · · Score: 1

    Suppose you need some lumber cut on a construction project. If you hire "Lefty" as the sawman because he's slightly cheaper, stand behind him yelling faster, faster the whole time and "suggest" that sawmen who remain employed by you remove the guards to make things move faster, whose fault is it when there's an accident on the site?

    1. Re:Who's to blame by Bigjeff5 · · Score: 1

      Lefty, the guy who's supposed to know how to operate a chain saw safely.

      Duh.

      Are you really making this asinine argument?

      --
      Security is mostly a superstition... Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. - Helen Keller
    2. Re:Who's to blame by sjames · · Score: 1

      You might have missed my not so subtle hint that "Lefty" shows signs of being under-qualified to do the job safely.

  28. BP vs union carbide by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    People outside the US would be more sympathetic to the hounding of BP as corporately responsible, rather than the US contractors actually running the rig, if the US had handled the Union Carbide disaster in Bhopal equally strictly, instead of shielding from extradition the US corporate leadership responsible (who fled the country breaking bail). After all the 4,000 killed at Bhopal were foreigners, and no American livelihoods were endangered....

    1. Re:BP vs union carbide by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      instead of shielding from extradition the US corporate leadership responsible

      But ... but ... it's in the constitution!

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
  29. Flamebait, eh?.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hurt some US sensibilities, have we?

    Tsk.