Slashdot Mirror


BSA's Latest Piracy Claims 'Shockingly Misleading,' Says Geist

An anonymous reader writes "This week the Business Software Alliance published a new study which purports to estimate the economic gain from a ten percent reduction in piracy of business software. For Canada, the BSA claims that the reduction would create over 6,000 new jobs and generate billions in GDP and tax revenue. But Michael Geist says the BSA claims are based on nothing more than the economic gains from a ten percent increase in proprietary software spending. The BSA now admits its estimate is based on the presumption that every dollar 'saved' by using unlicensed software would now be spent on proprietary software." Glyn Moody pointed out more flaws in the BSA's report.

23 of 277 comments (clear)

  1. The Business Glass Alliance Announces by h4rr4r · · Score: 5, Insightful

    For every 10% increase in broken window glass over 6,000 new jobs would be created and billions in GDP and tax revenue would be generated.

    1. Re:The Business Glass Alliance Announces by Xeno+man · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Working hard doesn't mean you have done anything of value. I can work much harder digging a hole in the ground but if no one wants the hole and there is no need for a hole there, I can't get all pissy and demand to be paid for all of my hard work.

    2. Re:The Business Glass Alliance Announces by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Working hard doesn't mean you have done anything of value. I can work much harder digging a hole in the ground but if no one wants the hole and there is no need for a hole there, I can't get all pissy and demand to be paid for all of my hard work.

      Opposite side of the coin is that if someone comes along and starts using your hole, you'd reasonably expect to get paid for it, just like anyone else workin' the street.

    3. Re:The Business Glass Alliance Announces by MozeeToby · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Alternatively again, I dig a whole for the express purpose of turning it into a swimming pool and charging people for its use. I finish the pool and sell admission to thousands of people but at night, after we're all closed up, hundreds climb over the fence and swim for free.

    4. Re:The Business Glass Alliance Announces by geekoid · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Which costs you nothing.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    5. Re:The Business Glass Alliance Announces by interval1066 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Bad analogy;

      if someone comes along and starts using your hole, you'd reasonably expect to get paid for it...

      Better: I dig a hole. Some one comes along, pays me a fee for my hole, and then snaps their fingers and creates a similar hole. They then do this 1000 more times, creating holes all over the place. Soon everyone has a copy of my hole, I only dug one hole, but I demand a license from everyone who has a hole. I soon decide that anyone who has a hole now owes me money; regardless of whether or not their hole is exactly like mine. I sue anyone with a hole. Some suites I win, but most I lose. And its done nothing to curb copying of my hole. More people than ever have holes, and tell me to get lost with my efforts to collect on new holes. Even though I'm in the right, its still easier for people to just copy my hole that jump through my byzantine licensing schemes. Instead of creating a new way to make holes, or completely different hole-like paradigms (portable holes, holes to other dimensions, holes that contains delicious meals...) I concentrate my efforts on punishing people with old-style holes. I die alone and hole-less. Stretches the scenario but much closer to the real-world.

      --
      Python: 'And then suddenly you have a language which says "we're all stuck with whatever the whiniest coder wants".'
    6. Re:The Business Glass Alliance Announces by TheWizardTim · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You forget, part of the contract for building that swimming pool, is that after a set amount of time, the pool becomes community property and is opened free to everyone. You on the other hand put in a lock that by law, can never be removed. The pool is free to the public, but no one can get in. After several years, you forget about the pool, and no longer care about the ownership of the pool, but the lock is still on the gate.

    7. Re:The Business Glass Alliance Announces by mickwd · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Well the extra jobs claim is a nonsense, for starters.

      The very fact that the software was "pirated" means that the software is already specified, designed, written and tested - no extra technical jobs needed there.

      The very fact that the software was "pirated" means that the software was already widely known about - no extra jobs in sales and marketing needed there.

      The very fact that the software was "pirated" means that those users are prepared to do without paid support - no extra jobs in support and maintenance needed there.

      The very fact that the software was "pirated" means that the software is already distributed to those who are using it - no extra jobs in distribution needed there.

      So what would also those extra jobs be used for? Counting the extra money?

    8. Re:The Business Glass Alliance Announces by Dalzhim · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Well if the night swimmers become numerous enough to require a drink bar, then a few vending machines can probably cover up the costs these swimmers incur until the thing becomes big enough that you can keep your pool open 24/24. In the end everyone is winning. Your swimming pool wouldn't gain popularity as fast without the night swimmers.

      As far as pools are concerned, supposing people can swim for free at night, I don't think that'll prevent them from paying during the day as that's the time when it is the most interesting to cool yourself off.

      Besides, why would swimming not be allowed at night? Some of the night swimmers maybe are night shift workers who just don't have any pool to go to otherwise. They're badly served customers and it's your own fault for not charging them a fee.

    9. Re:The Business Glass Alliance Announces by greenbird · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Wow, the lengths you sick people will go through to justify your thievery. Listen up, douchebag:

      Wow, the lengths you sick people will go through to justify anti-capitalistic protectionist laws that stomp on and oppress the rights and freedoms of everyone else because you can't figure out how to get paid what you want for doing what you want do. Listen up, douchebag: Just because you have this outrageous sense of entitlement that people should pay you the exactly the way you want to get paid for doing exactly what you want to do doesn't mean there should be laws stifling innovation and restricting what everyone else can do simple so you can get paid what you want when you want. If you can't make a living doing what you want to do learn how that fryer works. Just because you work on something doesn't mean you should get paid for and expect society to bend to your will. You are a pathetic human being. I bet you'd be screaming bloody murder if they passed a law saying you had to pay half of what you make to whoever made your computer because you used it to produce the software your trying to sell. You'd be out of there faster than it takes for you to get the fry basket out when the beeper goes off.

      If you can't figure out how to make a living doing want you want to do I'd suggest doing something else. Don't expect society to shape itself around you just because you feel you deserve to get paid for something. It's funny the number of opensource companies that can make money off something that people are free do download and use for free. Oh and I write software for a living so don't even try pulling out that card.

      --
      Who is John Galt?
    10. Re:The Business Glass Alliance Announces by SleazyRidr · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I love it when people start with a simple analogy and then extend upon that idea, then tell you that you can use the idea in the original scenario.

      All I need to do is put a drink machine next to my software, and then I'll be able to double my profits!

  2. Econ 101 by Lord+Byron+II · · Score: 5, Insightful

    There is a finite amount of money.

    Thus, if $1000 more is spent on software, $1000 less is spent elsewhere. Roughly speaking, 6000 new software jobs equals 6000 fewer other jobs.

    This is approximately a zero sum game.

    There are benefits to reducing piracy, but their argument doesn't hold water.

    1. Re:Econ 101 by spiffmastercow · · Score: 3, Insightful

      But economics is not actually a zero sum game.. There's lots of imaginary money (stocks, bonds, loans, etc.) that pops into existence from time to time, and disappears just as quickly. Economics is like alchemy, in that it doesn't actually have to work, only make others think it works.

    2. Re:Econ 101 by spiffmastercow · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Your problem here is you're thinking of economics as a science (and beyond that, a hard science). Economics doesn't have rules. At best, economics has patterns.

  3. Not Shocking by Sonny+Yatsen · · Score: 3, Insightful

    How is it shocking? Every study released by industry groups on the effects of piracy, thus far, has been way off the mark in estimating the economic impact of piracy. This is about as unshocking as you can get. Did anyone really expect a trade advocacy group to not mislead you when they report on stuff like this?

    --
    My postings are informational and does not constitute legal advice. Act on it at your risk.
  4. Zero sum by flaming+error · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "the reduction [of software piracy] would create over 6,000 new jobs and generate billions in GDP and tax revenue"

    That also assumes that any money not spent on proprietary software is being stashed under a mattress.

    The truth is more like the money would be diverted from other spending, and these "billions" of dollars would just be distributed differently, with no plausible increase in net GDP or tax revenue.

  5. not to promote piracy, but... by Nadaka · · Score: 4, Insightful

    If you were to increase software sales by 10% for an equal reduction in piracy, you would be causing billions of dollars of HARM to the economy because those former pirates would experience no increase in value in the software they have and now have fewer resources to spend elsewhere.

    Piracy does cause some harm to the software/entertainment industry, but it does so by enriching the greater economy by creating a net gain in value when you consider the big picture.

    Their argument is fundamentally flawed in ways far beyond the fact that they are making up random numbers.

  6. History repeats by overshoot · · Score: 4, Insightful

    And for the next twenty years, we'll be seeing this study cited as fact in Government position papers, other MPAA/RIAA/BSA "studies," Congressional testimony, treaty discussions, etc.

    --
    Lacking <sarcasm> tags, /. substitutes moderation as "Troll."
  7. It's might even be positive for the economy by Joce640k · · Score: 4, Insightful

    A lot of people who pirate (eg.) Microsoft Office will only use it once a month or so.

    Spending $600 so they can use Office a dozen times a year is probably worse for the economy than spending it on something else.

    --
    No sig today...
  8. A devil's game by xkr · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Economics is tricky. I worked closely with one of the two largest software companies in the world on the issue of piracy.
    • Most non-paying users of software would NOT purchase the product if a free version is unavailable.
    • Non-paying customers are getting free training and free market share development. Consider, if you will, comparison to the porn model. You give away 95% for free so that when and if someone decides (business: "needs") to upgrade to supported product they will chose yours over a competitors.
    • If you take away money from a business (charge for a previously free service) you are adding ZERO to the overall economy, because the business has to cut back somewhere else.
    • If ENOUGH people start paying, who weren't then the developer has more money to improve the product, which improves the productivity of ALL the users (paying or not) and that DOES add to the overall productivity and this improves the economy.

    Conclusion: YES, you want people to pay for software they use but (IMHO) measuring the economic impact is a devil's game. At best.

    --
    I will create a sig when innovation restarts in the U.S.
  9. Eureka! by N0Man74 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I get it! It's so clear now!

    My new plan is to pirate $100,000 worth of software, movies, and games every year. The money I save I will put into a retirement account, and I'll be able to retire in style in no time!

    Now, I don't make $100,000 a year, and my current expenses are only a little less than my current income, but that's neither here nor there. The BSA has shown me that this logic is sound!

    A penny pirated, is a penny saved, is a penny earned, right?

  10. Tag Line by carrier+lost · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "BSA. Because not enough people are using Open Source"

  11. Additional copies sold = 99% pure profit by Technomancer · · Score: 3, Insightful

    It is really hard to argue that selling additional copies of software will create more jobs. Maybe little with packing of software boxes and tech support. Otherwise all extra copies of software sold are pure profit. All it achieves is to transfer money from software users to software companies shaderholders.