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BSA's Latest Piracy Claims 'Shockingly Misleading,' Says Geist

An anonymous reader writes "This week the Business Software Alliance published a new study which purports to estimate the economic gain from a ten percent reduction in piracy of business software. For Canada, the BSA claims that the reduction would create over 6,000 new jobs and generate billions in GDP and tax revenue. But Michael Geist says the BSA claims are based on nothing more than the economic gains from a ten percent increase in proprietary software spending. The BSA now admits its estimate is based on the presumption that every dollar 'saved' by using unlicensed software would now be spent on proprietary software." Glyn Moody pointed out more flaws in the BSA's report.

45 of 277 comments (clear)

  1. The Business Glass Alliance Announces by h4rr4r · · Score: 5, Insightful

    For every 10% increase in broken window glass over 6,000 new jobs would be created and billions in GDP and tax revenue would be generated.

    1. Re:The Business Glass Alliance Announces by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      I ran the numbers and if the members of the BSA gave a Canadian 10 billion dollars:

      - Canada's GDP would go up by billions of dollars
      - Nearly 5 billion dollars would go to taxes
      - The lucky guy or gal could spend 3 billion dollars to hire 6,000 people at an average of $50,000 a year for 10 years to build a monument of themselves.
      - The lucky person would have 2 billion dollars left to spend

      The choice is clear.

    2. Re:The Business Glass Alliance Announces by TrisexualPuppy · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Exactly. Nice assumption that it is businesses that can actually afford the software that are running the pirated software.

      And now that these businesses are being put in their place, they're going to rightfully pay their BILLIONS to the software companies. 6000 new jobs! Nevermind the BILLIONS in paycuts and thousands of layoffs that would be needed to pay for the software if the supposition were true...

      You aren't going to get money from nothing unless you're the Federal Reserve®

    3. Re:The Business Glass Alliance Announces by Xeno+man · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Working hard doesn't mean you have done anything of value. I can work much harder digging a hole in the ground but if no one wants the hole and there is no need for a hole there, I can't get all pissy and demand to be paid for all of my hard work.

    4. Re:The Business Glass Alliance Announces by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Working hard doesn't mean you have done anything of value. I can work much harder digging a hole in the ground but if no one wants the hole and there is no need for a hole there, I can't get all pissy and demand to be paid for all of my hard work.

      Opposite side of the coin is that if someone comes along and starts using your hole, you'd reasonably expect to get paid for it, just like anyone else workin' the street.

    5. Re:The Business Glass Alliance Announces by TrisexualPuppy · · Score: 4, Informative

      obviously the pirated software has value over the free alternatives

      I debunk your argument by naming this common logical fallacy. This is a textbook example of begging the question based on a false presumption that some F/OSS alternative exists for every marketed software. By the way, why try to make something a "right" when one can already sue for damages based on simple law that already covers this topic anyway, theft. You might want to rethink your argument.

    6. Re:The Business Glass Alliance Announces by HungryHobo · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Alternatively, I dig a hole in some waste ground without anyone asking me to.
      I work very hard.
      I bitch and moan about how I worked real hard and demand to be paid.
      Nobody pays me.

      Later someone else comes along and puts water in the disused hole and starts using it for a swimming pool.
      I bitch and moan that I worked very hard and since they're using it it obviously has value.
      Yet still nobody pays me.

      The moral of the story is, just because you work hard, even if what you do has value to someone that does not automatically entitle you to payment.

    7. Re:The Business Glass Alliance Announces by MozeeToby · · Score: 3, Interesting

      My point was that the pirated software had value to the the people who are pirating it, not that every piece of functionality was available in a free piece of software. If there is no free alternative available then there is all the more reason that the software has value since there is no replacement for it.

      By the way, why try to make something a "right" when one can already sue for damages based on simple law that already covers this topic anyway, theft.

      Because as has been pointed out on this site many, many times, theft implies denying access to the stolen item by taking it away. The implication being that creating a copy of something for your own use cannot really be theft since the original copy is still completely usable and available to others. There is also laws that say that content creators have a right to control who copies and distributes their creations, it's called 'copyright', maybe you've heard of it?

    8. Re:The Business Glass Alliance Announces by MozeeToby · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Alternatively again, I dig a whole for the express purpose of turning it into a swimming pool and charging people for its use. I finish the pool and sell admission to thousands of people but at night, after we're all closed up, hundreds climb over the fence and swim for free.

    9. Re:The Business Glass Alliance Announces by geekoid · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Which costs you nothing.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    10. Re:The Business Glass Alliance Announces by interval1066 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Bad analogy;

      if someone comes along and starts using your hole, you'd reasonably expect to get paid for it...

      Better: I dig a hole. Some one comes along, pays me a fee for my hole, and then snaps their fingers and creates a similar hole. They then do this 1000 more times, creating holes all over the place. Soon everyone has a copy of my hole, I only dug one hole, but I demand a license from everyone who has a hole. I soon decide that anyone who has a hole now owes me money; regardless of whether or not their hole is exactly like mine. I sue anyone with a hole. Some suites I win, but most I lose. And its done nothing to curb copying of my hole. More people than ever have holes, and tell me to get lost with my efforts to collect on new holes. Even though I'm in the right, its still easier for people to just copy my hole that jump through my byzantine licensing schemes. Instead of creating a new way to make holes, or completely different hole-like paradigms (portable holes, holes to other dimensions, holes that contains delicious meals...) I concentrate my efforts on punishing people with old-style holes. I die alone and hole-less. Stretches the scenario but much closer to the real-world.

      --
      Python: 'And then suddenly you have a language which says "we're all stuck with whatever the whiniest coder wants".'
    11. Re:The Business Glass Alliance Announces by mcgrew · · Score: 4, Informative

      I can cite one example of software piracy costing a software publisher: Ernie Ball.

      Ball manufactures my favorite guitar strings, the "Super Slinky". In 2000 he was raided by the BSA, couldn't find all the licenses, and settled with the BSA for $100,000. Enraged, he said he wanted all Microsoft products out of his offices and factory. "I don't care if we have to buy 10,000 abacuses," he said, "We won't do business with someone who treats us poorly."

      It's now a Linux shop. All the money he hasn't spent on Microsoft products in the last ten years and in the forseeable future is money lost to MS. The BSA's insane zeal to make sure that every piece of software has a license and that the license can be found has cost Microsoft hundreds of thousands of dollars, and will cost far more.

    12. Re:The Business Glass Alliance Announces by TheWizardTim · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You forget, part of the contract for building that swimming pool, is that after a set amount of time, the pool becomes community property and is opened free to everyone. You on the other hand put in a lock that by law, can never be removed. The pool is free to the public, but no one can get in. After several years, you forget about the pool, and no longer care about the ownership of the pool, but the lock is still on the gate.

    13. Re:The Business Glass Alliance Announces by mickwd · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Well the extra jobs claim is a nonsense, for starters.

      The very fact that the software was "pirated" means that the software is already specified, designed, written and tested - no extra technical jobs needed there.

      The very fact that the software was "pirated" means that the software was already widely known about - no extra jobs in sales and marketing needed there.

      The very fact that the software was "pirated" means that those users are prepared to do without paid support - no extra jobs in support and maintenance needed there.

      The very fact that the software was "pirated" means that the software is already distributed to those who are using it - no extra jobs in distribution needed there.

      So what would also those extra jobs be used for? Counting the extra money?

    14. Re:The Business Glass Alliance Announces by Dalzhim · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Well if the night swimmers become numerous enough to require a drink bar, then a few vending machines can probably cover up the costs these swimmers incur until the thing becomes big enough that you can keep your pool open 24/24. In the end everyone is winning. Your swimming pool wouldn't gain popularity as fast without the night swimmers.

      As far as pools are concerned, supposing people can swim for free at night, I don't think that'll prevent them from paying during the day as that's the time when it is the most interesting to cool yourself off.

      Besides, why would swimming not be allowed at night? Some of the night swimmers maybe are night shift workers who just don't have any pool to go to otherwise. They're badly served customers and it's your own fault for not charging them a fee.

    15. Re:The Business Glass Alliance Announces by greenbird · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Wow, the lengths you sick people will go through to justify your thievery. Listen up, douchebag:

      Wow, the lengths you sick people will go through to justify anti-capitalistic protectionist laws that stomp on and oppress the rights and freedoms of everyone else because you can't figure out how to get paid what you want for doing what you want do. Listen up, douchebag: Just because you have this outrageous sense of entitlement that people should pay you the exactly the way you want to get paid for doing exactly what you want to do doesn't mean there should be laws stifling innovation and restricting what everyone else can do simple so you can get paid what you want when you want. If you can't make a living doing what you want to do learn how that fryer works. Just because you work on something doesn't mean you should get paid for and expect society to bend to your will. You are a pathetic human being. I bet you'd be screaming bloody murder if they passed a law saying you had to pay half of what you make to whoever made your computer because you used it to produce the software your trying to sell. You'd be out of there faster than it takes for you to get the fry basket out when the beeper goes off.

      If you can't figure out how to make a living doing want you want to do I'd suggest doing something else. Don't expect society to shape itself around you just because you feel you deserve to get paid for something. It's funny the number of opensource companies that can make money off something that people are free do download and use for free. Oh and I write software for a living so don't even try pulling out that card.

      --
      Who is John Galt?
    16. Re:The Business Glass Alliance Announces by Technician · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Due to the Ernie Ball story and the high cost of software, when I stopped loading Windows on home built beige boxes, I started using Ubuntu instead. Now I no longer pay for extra copies of AV software, media players, etc. The net result due to the Software Repository for Ubuntu, I buy less applications and games. I find I don't need CD or DVD burning or ripping software from a retailer.

      All I can say is Thank You BSA. You have saved me a bundle. I've gone legal and never looked back.

      --
      The truth shall set you free!
    17. Re:The Business Glass Alliance Announces by idontgno · · Score: 4, Funny

      Up Next: BSA claims that Open Source is the same as piracy. All software must be licensed, and those licenses must be purchased from member companies of the BSA.

      From the same mindset that brought you "Skipping commercials is theft"

      --
      Welcome to the Panopticon. Used to be a prison, now it's your home.
    18. Re:The Business Glass Alliance Announces by SleazyRidr · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I love it when people start with a simple analogy and then extend upon that idea, then tell you that you can use the idea in the original scenario.

      All I need to do is put a drink machine next to my software, and then I'll be able to double my profits!

  2. Econ 101 by Lord+Byron+II · · Score: 5, Insightful

    There is a finite amount of money.

    Thus, if $1000 more is spent on software, $1000 less is spent elsewhere. Roughly speaking, 6000 new software jobs equals 6000 fewer other jobs.

    This is approximately a zero sum game.

    There are benefits to reducing piracy, but their argument doesn't hold water.

    1. Re:Econ 101 by spiffmastercow · · Score: 3, Insightful

      But economics is not actually a zero sum game.. There's lots of imaginary money (stocks, bonds, loans, etc.) that pops into existence from time to time, and disappears just as quickly. Economics is like alchemy, in that it doesn't actually have to work, only make others think it works.

    2. Re:Econ 101 by sabt-pestnu · · Score: 4, Funny

      So what you're saying is that virtual dollars are constantly being created and destroyed in Economic Space? Forming the basis for a theory of Economic Vacuum Energy? Which itself is a part of Quantum Economics?

    3. Re:Econ 101 by spiffmastercow · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Your problem here is you're thinking of economics as a science (and beyond that, a hard science). Economics doesn't have rules. At best, economics has patterns.

    4. Re:Econ 101 by canajin56 · · Score: 3, Informative

      You're right that economics isn't a zero sum game. It's not because if imaginary money though, don't be absurd. It's because of this: Lets say I make $30,000 this year. But $12,000 goes to rent and utilities. $4800 on food. That leaves $13,200. So did I get paid $30,000 or did I get paid $13,200. Saying that economics is zero sum is saying that I only got paid $13,200. I didn't, I got $30,000. The fact that I spent it doesn't mean it never existed. It means I spent it. If there was only $30,000 in the entire country and I started with all of it, then spent it, the GDP is over $30,000 even though only $30,000 exists. Because I'll spend it, the people who get it after me will spend it, and so on, it keeps on flowing. GDP is a measure of money FLOW, not of money.

      But, some parts are zero sum. If you presume that the amount of pop people drink in a year is a fixed value, then the cola wars are a zero sum game. Coke can only make more if Pepsi makes less. That's got nothing to do with money being finite, and everything to do with demand being finite. And the OP's example is another on of these cases. If Company X has pirated software, and switches to legitimate software, they are spending $1000 more. This extra spending does not increase their income. Now, assuming that they were just sitting on that $1000 then this improves the economy, just like broken windows do. But if they were going to spend that money anyway, it's only a redistribution of wealth. It couldn't possibly create jobs unless you can show that software development companies spend money on different things, and that somehow those different things tend to go to big spenders so the economy is more stimulated. I doubt that's the case. (Plus most of that money, in TFA's example of Canadian companies, wouldn't even be staying in the same country).

      --
      ASCII stupid question, get a stupid ANSI
    5. Re:Econ 101 by spiffmastercow · · Score: 3, Informative

      Economics is certainly a science (at least with some schools of thought), producing a priori true propositions that withstand rigorous logical analysis - like mathematics. The law of diminishing marginal utility, for example, is not a 'pattern', neither is it subject to empirical verification/falsification - it is a priori true as much, or moreso than (depending on which philosopher your talk to), the Pythagoras triangle theorem.

      But it's that inherent inability to verify or falsify that makes it a non-science. And for the record, math is not a science, either. Being able to make up a system and then write equations that hold up within that system does not mean that your system in any way models reality. Unless you can empirically test a hypothesis, you're not doing science.

  3. Not Shocking by Sonny+Yatsen · · Score: 3, Insightful

    How is it shocking? Every study released by industry groups on the effects of piracy, thus far, has been way off the mark in estimating the economic impact of piracy. This is about as unshocking as you can get. Did anyone really expect a trade advocacy group to not mislead you when they report on stuff like this?

    --
    My postings are informational and does not constitute legal advice. Act on it at your risk.
    1. Re:Not Shocking by Sonny+Yatsen · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The only shocking thing about this is that they admitted their fudging of the facts after they were called out on it.

      --
      My postings are informational and does not constitute legal advice. Act on it at your risk.
  4. BSA is biased anyway by Halifax+Samuels · · Score: 4, Interesting
    http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d10423.pdf

    Even the US Government Accountability Office has announced that you can not accurately make economy-wide estimations for this type of thing.

    Most experts observed that it is difficult, if not impossible, to quantify the economy-wide impacts.

    Generally, the illicit nature of counterfeiting and piracy makes estimating the economic impact of IP infringements extremely difficult, so assumptions must be used to offset the lack of data.

    ...how did it go? Something about "making an ass of you and me"...

    1. Re:BSA is biased anyway by Ksevio · · Score: 4, Funny

      Generally, the illicit nature of counterfeiting and piracy makes estimating the economic impact of IP infringements extremely difficult, so assumptions must be used to offset the lack of data.

      Well in this case it would be "making an ass of u and mptions"

  5. Zero sum by flaming+error · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "the reduction [of software piracy] would create over 6,000 new jobs and generate billions in GDP and tax revenue"

    That also assumes that any money not spent on proprietary software is being stashed under a mattress.

    The truth is more like the money would be diverted from other spending, and these "billions" of dollars would just be distributed differently, with no plausible increase in net GDP or tax revenue.

    1. Re:Zero sum by Belial6 · · Score: 3, Funny

      So, every dollar spent on software is a dollar that could have otherwise been spent on life saving surgeries for children?!?!?! If I understand the BSA's logic correctly, that would mean that the BSA is murdering thousands of children a year!!!! Won't someone think of the children????

  6. And where does that dollar magically come from? by Palestrina · · Score: 4, Interesting

    It comes from reduced spending someplace else? Or increasing consumer or business debt, right?

    This is an old, old economic fallacy. I tried to debunk it once in a blog post: "Broken Windows and the Ghost of Keynes" but you can't kill the undead.

  7. not to promote piracy, but... by Nadaka · · Score: 4, Insightful

    If you were to increase software sales by 10% for an equal reduction in piracy, you would be causing billions of dollars of HARM to the economy because those former pirates would experience no increase in value in the software they have and now have fewer resources to spend elsewhere.

    Piracy does cause some harm to the software/entertainment industry, but it does so by enriching the greater economy by creating a net gain in value when you consider the big picture.

    Their argument is fundamentally flawed in ways far beyond the fact that they are making up random numbers.

  8. History repeats by overshoot · · Score: 4, Insightful

    And for the next twenty years, we'll be seeing this study cited as fact in Government position papers, other MPAA/RIAA/BSA "studies," Congressional testimony, treaty discussions, etc.

    --
    Lacking <sarcasm> tags, /. substitutes moderation as "Troll."
  9. Where the jobs are. by RyanFenton · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Unfortunately, the new jobs will not be in product development, but rather in legal prosecution and defense, as companies spend more time hunting "pirates" with very little result per dollar spent, then are sued themselves by companies using the same tools they use to attack others.

    Oh, and the law teams will almost certainly end up costing far more per 'employee' than developers.

    The BSA is what you get when lawyers see how this cycle works, and band together to accelerate the process, while maximizing leverage against companies to keep the cycle going. It's like a union, without the meager shared humility of strenuous work to justify the pride involved - it's all union bosses playing with money here.

    Ryan Fenton

  10. It's might even be positive for the economy by Joce640k · · Score: 4, Insightful

    A lot of people who pirate (eg.) Microsoft Office will only use it once a month or so.

    Spending $600 so they can use Office a dozen times a year is probably worse for the economy than spending it on something else.

    --
    No sig today...
  11. What the industry refuses to admit by Drakkenmensch · · Score: 3, Informative

    Most pirates would not bother buying the software they get for free if they were forced to either buy it or go without. So reducing piracy would not increase legitimate sales, or only marginally at best.

    1. Re:What the industry refuses to admit by h4rr4r · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I would say Open Office is far from a poor imitation. Lots of folks use it, you don't like it which is fine. The reality is I see it used in businesses all the time for employees who use office type apps very little. We have about 400 call center folks using it. This has saved our company considerable money.

      If it were not for people sending them office documents, they probably would be fine with wordpad though.

  12. A devil's game by xkr · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Economics is tricky. I worked closely with one of the two largest software companies in the world on the issue of piracy.
    • Most non-paying users of software would NOT purchase the product if a free version is unavailable.
    • Non-paying customers are getting free training and free market share development. Consider, if you will, comparison to the porn model. You give away 95% for free so that when and if someone decides (business: "needs") to upgrade to supported product they will chose yours over a competitors.
    • If you take away money from a business (charge for a previously free service) you are adding ZERO to the overall economy, because the business has to cut back somewhere else.
    • If ENOUGH people start paying, who weren't then the developer has more money to improve the product, which improves the productivity of ALL the users (paying or not) and that DOES add to the overall productivity and this improves the economy.

    Conclusion: YES, you want people to pay for software they use but (IMHO) measuring the economic impact is a devil's game. At best.

    --
    I will create a sig when innovation restarts in the U.S.
  13. Self serving study results. by InsaneProcessor · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Since the results of the study are self serving, the result mean nothing. The conclusion means nothing. This is not a story, it is propaganda disguised as news. Thusly, this is garbage and should be thrown out with yesterday's chicken carcass.

    --

    Athiesm is a religion like not collecting stamps is a hobby.
  14. Eureka! by N0Man74 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I get it! It's so clear now!

    My new plan is to pirate $100,000 worth of software, movies, and games every year. The money I save I will put into a retirement account, and I'll be able to retire in style in no time!

    Now, I don't make $100,000 a year, and my current expenses are only a little less than my current income, but that's neither here nor there. The BSA has shown me that this logic is sound!

    A penny pirated, is a penny saved, is a penny earned, right?

  15. Tag Line by carrier+lost · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "BSA. Because not enough people are using Open Source"

  16. Other errors: 43%, not 50%, etc. by Schnoodledorfer · · Score: 3, Informative

    Skimming through the comments so far, I get the impression that most people are concentrating on the argument that if a person can't pirate, that doesn't mean they will buy. TFA makes an even better point: They BSA assumed that, by value, 50% of the software in use is pirated. Otherwise a 10% reduction in piracy wouldn't result in a 10% increase in sales, even if all of the ex-pirates purchased. Gee, doesn't 50% seem a little high?

    How did BSA get 50%? A questionable study said greater than 40%, and since 50% is greater than 40%, it must be the correct number. (The actual number was 43%, FWIW.

    The earlier study included countries such as China and Russia and it appears (even the detailed version didn't really say) that they assumed that each piece of unlicensed software counted as much as each piece of licensed software. So every unlicensed copy of Windows 98 running on an underpowered PC in a third world or BRIC country was as valuable as any piece of brand-new business software.

    One thing that makes this look like so much hoo-ha is that the "detailed studies" available as PDFs don't contain any collected data or details about methodology. It's just nicely presented conclusions and spin.

    --
    Knowledge is the small part of ignorance that we arrange and classify. (Ambrose Bierce)
  17. Pirating does not confer value by DinDaddy · · Score: 3, Funny

    If you say different, you have declared Uwe Bolle's movies to have a non-negative value, which is plainly false.

  18. Additional copies sold = 99% pure profit by Technomancer · · Score: 3, Insightful

    It is really hard to argue that selling additional copies of software will create more jobs. Maybe little with packing of software boxes and tech support. Otherwise all extra copies of software sold are pure profit. All it achieves is to transfer money from software users to software companies shaderholders.