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BSA's Latest Piracy Claims 'Shockingly Misleading,' Says Geist

An anonymous reader writes "This week the Business Software Alliance published a new study which purports to estimate the economic gain from a ten percent reduction in piracy of business software. For Canada, the BSA claims that the reduction would create over 6,000 new jobs and generate billions in GDP and tax revenue. But Michael Geist says the BSA claims are based on nothing more than the economic gains from a ten percent increase in proprietary software spending. The BSA now admits its estimate is based on the presumption that every dollar 'saved' by using unlicensed software would now be spent on proprietary software." Glyn Moody pointed out more flaws in the BSA's report.

26 of 277 comments (clear)

  1. The Business Glass Alliance Announces by h4rr4r · · Score: 5, Insightful

    For every 10% increase in broken window glass over 6,000 new jobs would be created and billions in GDP and tax revenue would be generated.

    1. Re:The Business Glass Alliance Announces by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      I ran the numbers and if the members of the BSA gave a Canadian 10 billion dollars:

      - Canada's GDP would go up by billions of dollars
      - Nearly 5 billion dollars would go to taxes
      - The lucky guy or gal could spend 3 billion dollars to hire 6,000 people at an average of $50,000 a year for 10 years to build a monument of themselves.
      - The lucky person would have 2 billion dollars left to spend

      The choice is clear.

    2. Re:The Business Glass Alliance Announces by TrisexualPuppy · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Exactly. Nice assumption that it is businesses that can actually afford the software that are running the pirated software.

      And now that these businesses are being put in their place, they're going to rightfully pay their BILLIONS to the software companies. 6000 new jobs! Nevermind the BILLIONS in paycuts and thousands of layoffs that would be needed to pay for the software if the supposition were true...

      You aren't going to get money from nothing unless you're the Federal Reserve®

    3. Re:The Business Glass Alliance Announces by Xeno+man · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Working hard doesn't mean you have done anything of value. I can work much harder digging a hole in the ground but if no one wants the hole and there is no need for a hole there, I can't get all pissy and demand to be paid for all of my hard work.

    4. Re:The Business Glass Alliance Announces by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Working hard doesn't mean you have done anything of value. I can work much harder digging a hole in the ground but if no one wants the hole and there is no need for a hole there, I can't get all pissy and demand to be paid for all of my hard work.

      Opposite side of the coin is that if someone comes along and starts using your hole, you'd reasonably expect to get paid for it, just like anyone else workin' the street.

    5. Re:The Business Glass Alliance Announces by TrisexualPuppy · · Score: 4, Informative

      obviously the pirated software has value over the free alternatives

      I debunk your argument by naming this common logical fallacy. This is a textbook example of begging the question based on a false presumption that some F/OSS alternative exists for every marketed software. By the way, why try to make something a "right" when one can already sue for damages based on simple law that already covers this topic anyway, theft. You might want to rethink your argument.

    6. Re:The Business Glass Alliance Announces by HungryHobo · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Alternatively, I dig a hole in some waste ground without anyone asking me to.
      I work very hard.
      I bitch and moan about how I worked real hard and demand to be paid.
      Nobody pays me.

      Later someone else comes along and puts water in the disused hole and starts using it for a swimming pool.
      I bitch and moan that I worked very hard and since they're using it it obviously has value.
      Yet still nobody pays me.

      The moral of the story is, just because you work hard, even if what you do has value to someone that does not automatically entitle you to payment.

    7. Re:The Business Glass Alliance Announces by interval1066 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Bad analogy;

      if someone comes along and starts using your hole, you'd reasonably expect to get paid for it...

      Better: I dig a hole. Some one comes along, pays me a fee for my hole, and then snaps their fingers and creates a similar hole. They then do this 1000 more times, creating holes all over the place. Soon everyone has a copy of my hole, I only dug one hole, but I demand a license from everyone who has a hole. I soon decide that anyone who has a hole now owes me money; regardless of whether or not their hole is exactly like mine. I sue anyone with a hole. Some suites I win, but most I lose. And its done nothing to curb copying of my hole. More people than ever have holes, and tell me to get lost with my efforts to collect on new holes. Even though I'm in the right, its still easier for people to just copy my hole that jump through my byzantine licensing schemes. Instead of creating a new way to make holes, or completely different hole-like paradigms (portable holes, holes to other dimensions, holes that contains delicious meals...) I concentrate my efforts on punishing people with old-style holes. I die alone and hole-less. Stretches the scenario but much closer to the real-world.

      --
      Python: 'And then suddenly you have a language which says "we're all stuck with whatever the whiniest coder wants".'
    8. Re:The Business Glass Alliance Announces by mcgrew · · Score: 4, Informative

      I can cite one example of software piracy costing a software publisher: Ernie Ball.

      Ball manufactures my favorite guitar strings, the "Super Slinky". In 2000 he was raided by the BSA, couldn't find all the licenses, and settled with the BSA for $100,000. Enraged, he said he wanted all Microsoft products out of his offices and factory. "I don't care if we have to buy 10,000 abacuses," he said, "We won't do business with someone who treats us poorly."

      It's now a Linux shop. All the money he hasn't spent on Microsoft products in the last ten years and in the forseeable future is money lost to MS. The BSA's insane zeal to make sure that every piece of software has a license and that the license can be found has cost Microsoft hundreds of thousands of dollars, and will cost far more.

    9. Re:The Business Glass Alliance Announces by mickwd · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Well the extra jobs claim is a nonsense, for starters.

      The very fact that the software was "pirated" means that the software is already specified, designed, written and tested - no extra technical jobs needed there.

      The very fact that the software was "pirated" means that the software was already widely known about - no extra jobs in sales and marketing needed there.

      The very fact that the software was "pirated" means that those users are prepared to do without paid support - no extra jobs in support and maintenance needed there.

      The very fact that the software was "pirated" means that the software is already distributed to those who are using it - no extra jobs in distribution needed there.

      So what would also those extra jobs be used for? Counting the extra money?

    10. Re:The Business Glass Alliance Announces by Technician · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Due to the Ernie Ball story and the high cost of software, when I stopped loading Windows on home built beige boxes, I started using Ubuntu instead. Now I no longer pay for extra copies of AV software, media players, etc. The net result due to the Software Repository for Ubuntu, I buy less applications and games. I find I don't need CD or DVD burning or ripping software from a retailer.

      All I can say is Thank You BSA. You have saved me a bundle. I've gone legal and never looked back.

      --
      The truth shall set you free!
    11. Re:The Business Glass Alliance Announces by idontgno · · Score: 4, Funny

      Up Next: BSA claims that Open Source is the same as piracy. All software must be licensed, and those licenses must be purchased from member companies of the BSA.

      From the same mindset that brought you "Skipping commercials is theft"

      --
      Welcome to the Panopticon. Used to be a prison, now it's your home.
  2. Econ 101 by Lord+Byron+II · · Score: 5, Insightful

    There is a finite amount of money.

    Thus, if $1000 more is spent on software, $1000 less is spent elsewhere. Roughly speaking, 6000 new software jobs equals 6000 fewer other jobs.

    This is approximately a zero sum game.

    There are benefits to reducing piracy, but their argument doesn't hold water.

    1. Re:Econ 101 by sabt-pestnu · · Score: 4, Funny

      So what you're saying is that virtual dollars are constantly being created and destroyed in Economic Space? Forming the basis for a theory of Economic Vacuum Energy? Which itself is a part of Quantum Economics?

  3. Re:Not Shocking by Sonny+Yatsen · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The only shocking thing about this is that they admitted their fudging of the facts after they were called out on it.

    --
    My postings are informational and does not constitute legal advice. Act on it at your risk.
  4. BSA is biased anyway by Halifax+Samuels · · Score: 4, Interesting
    http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d10423.pdf

    Even the US Government Accountability Office has announced that you can not accurately make economy-wide estimations for this type of thing.

    Most experts observed that it is difficult, if not impossible, to quantify the economy-wide impacts.

    Generally, the illicit nature of counterfeiting and piracy makes estimating the economic impact of IP infringements extremely difficult, so assumptions must be used to offset the lack of data.

    ...how did it go? Something about "making an ass of you and me"...

    1. Re:BSA is biased anyway by Ksevio · · Score: 4, Funny

      Generally, the illicit nature of counterfeiting and piracy makes estimating the economic impact of IP infringements extremely difficult, so assumptions must be used to offset the lack of data.

      Well in this case it would be "making an ass of u and mptions"

  5. Zero sum by flaming+error · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "the reduction [of software piracy] would create over 6,000 new jobs and generate billions in GDP and tax revenue"

    That also assumes that any money not spent on proprietary software is being stashed under a mattress.

    The truth is more like the money would be diverted from other spending, and these "billions" of dollars would just be distributed differently, with no plausible increase in net GDP or tax revenue.

  6. And where does that dollar magically come from? by Palestrina · · Score: 4, Interesting

    It comes from reduced spending someplace else? Or increasing consumer or business debt, right?

    This is an old, old economic fallacy. I tried to debunk it once in a blog post: "Broken Windows and the Ghost of Keynes" but you can't kill the undead.

  7. not to promote piracy, but... by Nadaka · · Score: 4, Insightful

    If you were to increase software sales by 10% for an equal reduction in piracy, you would be causing billions of dollars of HARM to the economy because those former pirates would experience no increase in value in the software they have and now have fewer resources to spend elsewhere.

    Piracy does cause some harm to the software/entertainment industry, but it does so by enriching the greater economy by creating a net gain in value when you consider the big picture.

    Their argument is fundamentally flawed in ways far beyond the fact that they are making up random numbers.

  8. History repeats by overshoot · · Score: 4, Insightful

    And for the next twenty years, we'll be seeing this study cited as fact in Government position papers, other MPAA/RIAA/BSA "studies," Congressional testimony, treaty discussions, etc.

    --
    Lacking <sarcasm> tags, /. substitutes moderation as "Troll."
  9. Where the jobs are. by RyanFenton · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Unfortunately, the new jobs will not be in product development, but rather in legal prosecution and defense, as companies spend more time hunting "pirates" with very little result per dollar spent, then are sued themselves by companies using the same tools they use to attack others.

    Oh, and the law teams will almost certainly end up costing far more per 'employee' than developers.

    The BSA is what you get when lawyers see how this cycle works, and band together to accelerate the process, while maximizing leverage against companies to keep the cycle going. It's like a union, without the meager shared humility of strenuous work to justify the pride involved - it's all union bosses playing with money here.

    Ryan Fenton

  10. It's might even be positive for the economy by Joce640k · · Score: 4, Insightful

    A lot of people who pirate (eg.) Microsoft Office will only use it once a month or so.

    Spending $600 so they can use Office a dozen times a year is probably worse for the economy than spending it on something else.

    --
    No sig today...
  11. A devil's game by xkr · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Economics is tricky. I worked closely with one of the two largest software companies in the world on the issue of piracy.
    • Most non-paying users of software would NOT purchase the product if a free version is unavailable.
    • Non-paying customers are getting free training and free market share development. Consider, if you will, comparison to the porn model. You give away 95% for free so that when and if someone decides (business: "needs") to upgrade to supported product they will chose yours over a competitors.
    • If you take away money from a business (charge for a previously free service) you are adding ZERO to the overall economy, because the business has to cut back somewhere else.
    • If ENOUGH people start paying, who weren't then the developer has more money to improve the product, which improves the productivity of ALL the users (paying or not) and that DOES add to the overall productivity and this improves the economy.

    Conclusion: YES, you want people to pay for software they use but (IMHO) measuring the economic impact is a devil's game. At best.

    --
    I will create a sig when innovation restarts in the U.S.
  12. Eureka! by N0Man74 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I get it! It's so clear now!

    My new plan is to pirate $100,000 worth of software, movies, and games every year. The money I save I will put into a retirement account, and I'll be able to retire in style in no time!

    Now, I don't make $100,000 a year, and my current expenses are only a little less than my current income, but that's neither here nor there. The BSA has shown me that this logic is sound!

    A penny pirated, is a penny saved, is a penny earned, right?

  13. Tag Line by carrier+lost · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "BSA. Because not enough people are using Open Source"