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Safety Commission To Rule On Safety of Rulers In Science Kits
The Consumer Product Safety Commission has been trying decide for weeks if science kits designed to teach children are safe enough for children to use without vigorous testing. It's not just the chemicals or sharp items in the kits that they are troubled with however. They are also concerned about the dangers of paper clips, magnets, and rulers. From the article: "Science kit makers asked for a testing exemption for the paper clips and other materials. The commission declined to grant them a blanket waiver as part of the guidance the agency approved Wednesday on a 3-2 vote." To be fair, paper clips can cause a lot of damage — just look at what Clippy did to Microsoft Office.
What do you need actual chemicals and stuff for, not to mention rulers and paper clips? Why not just a "My Science Kit" app, and do virtual experiments? Although I guess you could drop the PC on your foot or something, which could also be dangerous.
It's not like we have better things to do than make sure every child receives a rounded ruler!
why the poor science education in the United States is such a big problem?
I need trepanation like I need a hole in the head.
It's only a matter of time before the commission realizes that a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing, bans science kits outright, and starts going after books.
If our kids aren't smart enough to use a ruler without injury, what can we really expect them to learn?
Just look at what Clippy did to MS Office... That line is epic.
Now comes with Science Rock !
....that the "My First Meth Lab" is probably never going to reach store shelves?
It's clearly irresponsible to expose kids to some rulers; Saddam Hussein, Joseph Stalin and under certain conditions George W Bush
"Windows are for cheaters" - Bruce Springsteen
If rulers are too dangerous for these guys, just stop for a moment and think about how dangerous a keyboard or a mouse could be. It could never happen.
Bio questions? Ask me to start a Q&A journal. Computer analogies available for most topics!
Seriously, it is so hacky and keep making old and outdated jokes about Clippy and and BSODs, can you people just ever let anything go?
Of course, I'm on a site that still uses the Bill Gates Borg icon, so i guess not.
My grandmother gave me a chemistry kit from the 50's. It had a huge bottle of Potassium Cholorate, a big bottle of Ammonia Nitrate, among other dangerous chemicals. Those were the days...
Maybe chemistry sets should just contain a couple of sponges (must be too large to stuff in mouth). It's the only way to protect the children.
I must say that I find the concerns raised by the Consumer Product Safety Commission to be lacking. They haven't, for example, considered the considerable harms posed by the science kits manual itself. The risk of a paper cut is considerable.
Because where is the fun in that? See, chemistry sets are designed to encourage children to pursue science. If you are just doing it on the computer, why not just play a FPS on the computer? It doesn't teach kids to really explore or to think like a scientist.
The Consumer Product Safety commission should only be concerned about things that are really hazards when used correctly or things that are easily used incorrectly, for example, lead based paint on children's toys, yeah thats a real concern. The fact that some children -might- -possibly- use some materials in a science kit and get hurt is nearly non-existent.
The more we regulate science kits and lose children's natural curiosity in the world around us by essentially telling them that anyplace other than indoors watching TV and doing a bit of exercise on the treadmill is going to kill them, the more we can watch the US slip further and further into the dark ages...
Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
Computers are dangerous, they're filled with carcinogenic compounds and god forbid if the computer is connected to the Intertubes. There's PORN on the Intertubes and the children will be scarred for life if they see naked people and they will treat women with disrespect from thereon. Not to mention all the millions upon millions of pedophiles on the Intertubes just waiting to snatch up all the children.
The only reason we have safe laboratories today is because in the 1970's, science kits killed the careless ones.
Hell, even our playgrounds weeded out the stupid.
__ Someday, but not this morning, I'll finally learn to use the preview button.
Probably. The only problem is you don't get a feeling for it actually happening in front of your eyes when you start playing. I kinda remember my first kit, about half of it was full of highly dangerous and toxic chemicals that would have been banned today. But I learned a lot.
Maybe it was because I understood that if I ate the copper sulfate it would have been a moderately bad idea. Well that and my parents taught me to be responsible, and you know...read the instruction booklet.
Om, nomnomnom...
Paper clips are great toys/tools. Stop protecting the children from themselves and their inate curiosity and creativity.
http://www.acetonestudio.com
What I don't understand is that the government claims to have the authority via the CPSC to ban these kits and all kinds of other stuff but they say they cannot find the authority anywhere to ban tobacco? Personally, I'm one of those "small government" whackos that thinks all of this is nonsense but why can't they at least be consistent in their overstepping?
Television, fast food, sugary drinks, drivers with cellphones, schools and parents.
Also, magnets are pretty safe as long as you don't eat more than one at a time. Although a science kit really needs at least two magnets to be interesting, so I guess it is impossible to make a safe science kit if your kid has pica.
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
The federal commission of me agrees: science should be banned in the USA, so should be the last remnants of common sense; any display of individuality and unhealthy interest in any particular subject need to be investigated to establish the safety of such behavior as it relates to the society in total.
Everything must be made not just safe enough, but safe with a huge margin of error so that there is no chance of any accident happening ever at all. Of-course accidents are mostly responsible for a large number of scientific discoveries, so any evidence of scientific discovery must be investigated to isolate the main reason and find out where the safety procedures have failed to prevent such an occurrence to make sure it never happens again.
Have a safe day.
You can't handle the truth.
I have seen Xrays of children that have swallowed magnets - it aint good, and probably could have been prevented yet still allowed children to explore magnetism. magnets are also much stronger and more brittle than they were when I was a kid, the risks have changed and it is responsible to review policy. I don't think anyone wants to stop children learning here and I don't want to buy a science kit for my kid that's full of things that are more dangerous than they need to be.
By all means balance risk against learning benefit, but let there be some balance, not just recklessness to save a penny by not removing the sharp edges on a ruler.
Nullius in verba
What do you need actual chemicals and stuff for, not to mention rulers and paper clips? Why not just a "My Science Kit" app, and do virtual experiments? Although I guess you could drop the PC on your foot or something, which could also be dangerous.
Because chemistry is real and software isn't.
For the same reason most people prefer sex with a real partner as opposed to jerking-off to porn?
RIP America
July 4, 1776 - September 11, 2001
As someone who has played with software based labs, it doesn't compare to the real thing. It's one thing to click on two test tubes and have a thrid change color, but it entirely different to see the color change in real life as you add the reagents.
Science used to be cool because it was exciting. Small explosions, corrosive chemicals, and chemical reactions are cool, clicking some buttons on a computer program to simulate this is lame. If you want kids to like science, it needs to be (somewhat) dangerous. Schools should be encouraging thinking (ie. fire is hot so don't burn yourself, don't drink/touch hydrochloric acid, etc). If a few kids get hurt, well, hopefully they at least learned something, even if that something is that science can be dangerous.
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Can anyone recommend a good science kit with all kinds of things about to be banned? I have a 5 1/2 year old who and we could have a good time with a decent kit. Preferably one with plenty of toxic and/or explosive chemicals and of course some sharp objects, etc.
Jesus Fucking Christ on a Popsicle stick. Let's just tie those children to their beds god forbid something might happen to them.
Geez, the next thing you know they want to test the cups children drink out of, like our children are too stupid to know how to use a glass properly!
Oh wait... You mean there are reasons to test product safety OTHER than the possibility of simple misuse?
If you die choking on a standard plastic ruler, you were too weak to survive in this world. Better you improve the species by not perpetuating your substandard genes.
We're witnessing the pussification of America right before our eyes.
It's absolutely sickening.
At the top of the pyramid, it hardly matters what you spend the money on. Nor does it matter whether your "goal" succeeds or fails, or indeed, whether your "goal" even makes sense.
What matters is that the money passes through your hands. The bigger your cash flow, the better your chance to exploit that cash flow for personal gain.
There's a reason why every year government spends more, borrows more, and seizes more power over the people, and it's not because expanding the business of government is unprofitable for those at the top.
The CPSC could stick to something useful, like banning products with hidden and unexpected dangers, but no. As a government agency they must expand to get more power. They are self-interested. They attract power-hungry people who desire to control what we can buy. They attract people who like to show off a list of accomplishments that allegedly protect the children.
I still miss the lawn darts. (jarts) Lawn darts could kill you, but they were fun (unlike anything that meets approval) and they helped to remove idiots from the gene pool.
Fortunately the CPSC haven't yet banned power tools, so I can still find toys for my kids. Home Depot and Lowe's are the new toy stores.
I am now convinced that the world is coming to an end. I fear we have very little time left. I will now attempt suicide by ruler. :(
I prefer hands on science class...
Lesson one electricity... Kids on your desk is a fork, grab the fork and go find the nearest electrical outlet. Tell me what you discover...
"teacher! Johnny stuck the fork in the outlet 6 times now... he giggles when he get's shocked!"
Thank you sally.... Johnny, you are being sent to the special class...
your homework children is to learn about hot.. find something hot and tell me what you learn about it.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
How about those nasty things called Pencils? You can stab someone with them, I know someone who fell down and stabbed themselves, I still remember the ambulance they called.
Important degrees are for the rich. The kids that go to private schools that are not restricted to fischer-price education.
Public school is for the factory workers, trained to say "yes" and do whatever they are told.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
You know all of those guys who worked for NASA in the 60s, designing and building the rockets that took us to the moon? Well, they had radioactive sources and Geiger counters in their science kits.
And kids today are going to have to fight to get paper clips and magnets. Sigh.
I they want to be so f_cking safe, they should put their children in a straight jacket and toss them into padded cells.
ELOI, ELOI, LAMA SABACHTHANI!?
8 of my fingers left after playing with my chemistry set when I was a kid, and I'm grateful.
Are you being serious or sarcastic ? I can't even tell any more.
for the last time people, I am "frodo from middle eaRTH", not "middle eaST".
I'd say that's a legitimate concern. Why is everyone so quick to conclude everyone in government is incompetent? It's irrational so chill the fuck out.
---Technology will liberate us if it doesn't enslave us first.
It's all fun and games until somebody is garroted by a peripheral cable... all the more reason to go wireless I suppose. But then you have hazardous batteries and nutjobs who think that very low power radio transmitters are going to give them cancer. You just can't win.
I support the Slashcott and will not be reading or commenting from 2/10/14 to 2/17/14. Beta is steaming pile of dog shit
some would argue that software is real, chemistry isn't.
the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
Just wait 'til you get to the chapter on Darwin and Natural Selection?
Ask a Navy SEAL or your friendly neighborhood secret agent, or Vin "I'm going to kill you with my teacup" Diesel, or even your local role playing gamer: almost anything can be used as a weapon to inflict harm on someone. It follows that almost any object, used improperly, can unintentionally inflict harm. Of course a kid can hurt themselves or others with a paperclip or a ruler; it doesn't take a genius to figure that out! It also shouldn't take a genius to figure out that life, and growing up in particular, is full of risks, and that avoiding those risks is neither realistic, nor is it practical or, in my opinion, particularly desirable! I am saddened and angered by the "pussification of America" by removing all sources of everyday harm and risk, the obsessive "childproofing" of everything around us (often without regard for whether it affects adults or not!), and especially the "helicopter parent" mentality: you're raising your kids to be huge pussies! I also suspect that much of this over-sheltering of children is contributing in a big way to the "quarter-life crisis" phenomenon. Instead of "protecting" children to the point of encasing them in bubblewrap and feeding them intravenously (because they might choke on their pablum), how about we teach them the proper use, and more importantly an appropriate level of respect for potentially dangerous objects and situations, so they'll grow up to be responsible, capable adults? Or is that too radical and "dangerous" a concept anymore?
Are YOU using the TOOL, or is the TOOL using YOU? Think about it!
I think that the issue of kid safety actually is something that stops kids from learning because they are in an environment so pampered that they get completely lost whenever they have to leave home.
Of course kids hurt themselves now and then. It's part of the process, but as long as the injuries aren't permanent then it's experience gained.
But from a tin foil hat perspective it may be that all these "kid safety" issues are put in place just so that they can learn how to be a good consumer and not try to understand how things works.
If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker would destroy civilization.
Rulers?! Unless they are being used by a nun they are not lethal. Paper clips? Heaven forbid we give these kids staplers. Rubber bands? Tie enough around the neck and you can strangle someone. Erasers? Stuff a hundred or so in your nose and mouth and you could suffocate. Paper? What better to write bomb threats on? Shoes? We could kill someone with those, eventually. Magnifying glass? EVIL EVIL. A pencil? The horrors of millions of children going around without eyes. A desk? Well you could push one out the window and kill someone with those. Clothing? Can't have that, you could strangle someone with it. Books? PORNOGRAPHERS USE BOOKS. Computer? Same as books. Sunshine: causes skin cancer. Water: you could drown in it. Air: can't have that, its injected into bloodstreams by MURDERS.
Years ago someone had a signature that I am going to paraphrase: A risk free society is for those who don't have the balls to live in the real world. And I think it was a lady that said that.
Bah, copper sulfate isn't *that* dangerous. At least not when we're talking 60g in 3.78L of water, using an additional 20mL of 70% sulfuric acid to help it dissolve. At that point you're really almost to "just don't drink it or use it as eyewash, and wash your hands after use" -- it's also nifty for detecting unalloyed iron contamination, dunno what else it reacts with offhand though.
That word doesn't mean what you think it means.
I support the Slashcott and will not be reading or commenting from 2/10/14 to 2/17/14. Beta is steaming pile of dog shit
That's where you're wrong. All kinds of kids go to public schools, so they also have to give good education.
-- Cheers!
Darwin Awards starter kit.
Weird thing is I've just come back from the supermarket and I noticed on the side of some kids party novelties that the box advertising had the slogan "Hours of fun and safety!". How depressing. The last thing I wanted as a kid was *safety*. Whatever happened to "Hours of fun and excitement"?
UK just as bad as the USA sometimes....
This isn't about banning. This is about testing.
When I was a kid, someone had a cheap plastic ruler. He slapped it on my desk to wake me up one day and the damn thing shattered.
What the hell are paper clips doing in a science kit anyway? Is it part of the module on the boring bureaucracy of science?
Non impediti ratione cogitationus.
I believe that to be a rediculous concept. What we should be doing is teaching kids the proper awe and respect for potentially dangerous things, and once they've had that impressed on them, teach them how to handle those things properly.
Are YOU using the TOOL, or is the TOOL using YOU? Think about it!
Or better:
You write the name of each reactant on a piece of paper.
Then you say that they react and put them back into the box and place a piece with the result instead.
The paper must be made of the same material as 'edible panties'.
I am going to patent this.
The Consumer Product Safety commission should only be concerned about things that are really hazards when used correctly or things that are easily used incorrectly, for example, lead based paint on children's toys, yeah thats a real concern. The fact that some children -might- -possibly- use some materials in a science kit and get hurt is nearly non-existent.
Surprise! That is exactly what this is about, but the commission is being stupid. The makers of the science kits are bundling ordinary objects like rulers, paper clips, etc in their kits, and the commission is saying that they have to have a testing regime in place that tests everything that goes into the kits for lead and other toxic chemicals because it is arguably marketed to kids. The solution will be that the kit makers will stop making science kits, even something completely innocuous like "how magnetism works kit", because the burden of testing everything that goes into the kits outweighs the potential profit.
There was a very similar story a while back about low-powered motorcycles marketed to kids that had lead in the ENGINE. The end result looked like it was going to just destroy the market for the product simply on the basis that there was lead in it, regardless of the fact that even if a child disassembled the engine and ate the part in question, it was present in an alloy that would not release the lead into the child's system.
What the story is really about is the committee trying to make their mandate apply to absolutely everything, regardless of whether it had any real chance of causing damage to children.
I agree. Real explosions are fun. Real fire is fun. I still remember the day in 7th grade when we were finally allowed to use bunsen burners. It is in my top 10, despite losing an eyebrow. I think the danger of getting hurt or, in rare cases that probably involve doing something deeply stupid that might well disqualify you from the gene pool, killed are outweighed by just how a) fun and b) useful learning science can be.
And rulers? Rulers? Are you fucking kidding me?
words, words, words, lemur, words, words words
I hear those rulers are graded using "feet" and "inches", that's pretty dangerous.
--
Stay tuned for some shock and awe coming right up after this messages!
suck it, bitches
http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=1948#comic
The more we regulate science kits and lose children's natural curiosity in the world around us by essentially telling them that anyplace other than indoors watching TV and doing a bit of exercise on the treadmill is going to kill them, the more we can watch the US slip further and further into the dark ages...
That's what the powers that be want. You think they want us to explore things for ourselves? To LEARN on our own without relying on the government to tell us what is fact and what is fiction? No, they want us to punch in, punch out, then go home and watch TV and be told what's going on.
I have to be the devil's advocate in this case. I don't know the degree of testing that they are recommending be done, but I don't think this is as simple as "OMG someone might poke their eye with a paperclip."
For example...
A cheaply made wooden ruler that, after a small amount of bending, starts splintering in a way that will cause it to easily give people splinters may not be good for children under 12.
Or a plastic ruler that is made out of a material that, instead of simply breaking when bent, shatters and causes sharp shards to fly in all directions (think of bending a CD until it breaks) may not be good for children under 12.
Or even a paperclip that breaks easily leaving sharp edges or contains unsafe amounts of toxic metals may not be good for children under 12.
My guess is that reasons like these are why they don't relax the guidelines.
And just how is software going to help you learn what hydrogen sulphide smells like?
Quidnam Latine loqui modo coepi?
What are the odds that the kid who tries to SWALLOW RULERS is going to have a chemistry set or other sort of science kit?
It won't be long before the consumer product commission deems paperclips and rulers unsafe for adults as well... Paperclips? They don't carry a proper warning.... someone may put an eye out with that thing.
Enraging,
But true.
- Dan.
~ People that think they are better than anyone else for any reason are the cause of all the strife in the world.
Does anyone wonder... why blanket calls for "more regulation!!" can stifle the economy and economic growth?
(Obligatory disclaimer. Significant portions of regulation in the US are in fact valuable and useful and this comment is not intended as a blanket call for the repeal of regulation. Also, this comment may contain substances known to the state of California to cause cancer. Do not consume this comment with alcohol, if you are pregnant, breastfeeding, or may become pregnant. Do not pass go. Do not collect $200.)
The World Wide Web is dying. Soon, we shall have only the Internet.
But it shouldn't be part of the testing. By childrens toy I mean something that you give to two year olds, something like a pacifier or the like, not a toy intended for kids older than the "lets eat random crap" stage.
Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
I have a wonderful book from the 60s, "700 Science Experiments for Everyone", originally published as "UNESCO Source Book for Science Teaching." It was wonderful gems like "How to Make an Electric Toaster" ("Your problem is to find a convenient was to mount 5 metres (no less!) of nichrome wire in a space no larger than a slide of bread."), and cutting apart old torch batteries to get the carbon rods to make an arc light, connected directly to the mains via a rheostat made from wire-wound rocks immersed in salt water. Not to mention DIY test tubes, alcohol lamps, etc.
Or, you can grow up to be a lawyer, or someone who scrubs toilets for lawyers.
Give a man a fish and you have fed him for today. Teach a man to fish, and he'll say "WHERE'S MY FISH, YOU IDIOT?"
They didn't treat us with kid gloves, we were supposed to be midget scientists, not young hooligans. They kept us in order by making anyone who screwed up too much sit out the year (no more practicals, they could just observe). We took liberties, but not *too* many[*].
:). Eventually it dries, falls off the table, goes 'BANG!' and throws fragments of itself all over the place. Of course, those bits dried faster, and they were all over the floor. Pretty soon, walking anywhere in the pavilion would set off more bangs as the stuff exploded underfoot. Then the headmaster walked in. We made ourselves scarce just in time. He wasn't amused :)
Of course, this was in the UK, not the USA. I can't vouch for how they treated kids over here - there's probably a whole bunch of stuff we did that's more dangerous than *rulers* too, but that was just off-the-top-of-my-head...
[*] Gun-cotton (basically cotton soaked in Nitric acid to form nitrocellulose) is pretty stable when it's wet, but when it dries out, small amounts of friction can set it off. We took a whole load of it to the pavilion on the yearly school sports-day, and forgot about it (we were playing Runequest in-between competing, I had shot-putt that day
Simon
Physicists get Hadrons!
Hey if you're so dumb that a ruler gets the better of you, you don't belong in the gene pool.
Hope is the currency of fools
WHen I was in school, taking chemistry, the only person in the class that ever manage to make a good explosion, serious toxic fume, or cause damage and chaos in any other way seemed to be the teacher.
Hahaha, you're a funny guy! Public schools focusing on education, that's hilarious!
When you're afraid to download music illegally in your own home, then the terrorists have won!
We are over-regulated on the wrong things and under-regulated on the vital things. The nanny state fosters dependency on others to make critical judgments for us so that all th consumer need worry about is buying, buying, buying instead of thinking for themselves about a product. Meanwhile, banks destroy the economy and BP destroys the Gulf region because of lack of preventive oversight.
I say we're so out of balance we're headed to be a footnote in the history books. "The US, an experiment in democracy that failed due to growing beyond the scale where it could be managed properly."
Tonight I shall be carrying on from where we got to last week when I was showing you how to defend yourselves against anyone who attacks you with armed with office supplies.
(Grumbles from all)
Palin:Oh, you promised you wouldn't do office supplies this week.
Sgt.:What do you mean?
Jones:We've done office supplies the last nine weeks.
Sgt.:What's wrong with office supplies? You think you know it all, eh?
Palin:Can't we do something else?
Idle (Welsh):Like someone who attacks you with a pointed stick?
Sgt.: Pointed stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against pointed sticks, do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh? Office supplies not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some great homicidal maniac comes after you with a bag of rubber bands, don't come crying to me! Now, the tape dispenser. When your assailant lunges at you with a tape dispenser
All:We done the tape dispenser
Sgt.:What?
Chapman:We done the tape dispenser.
Palin:We done protractors, staples, paper...
Jones: 8 x 11 and legal
Palin: White-out, mechanical pencils
Chapman: Dry erase markers, tape dispenser...
Palin: Dixie cups
Jones: Envelopes
Chapman: Sticky Notes
Sgt.: How about rulers?
All: We did them.
Sgt.: Metric and standard?
All:Yes!
Sgt.: All right, folders.
(All sigh.)
Sgt.: We haven't done them, have we? Right. Folders. How to defend yourself against a man armed with a folder. Now you, come at me with this folder. Catch! Now, it's quite simple to defend yourself against a man armed with a folder. First of all you force him to drop the folder; then, second, you stick the folder in a file cabinet, thus disarming him. You have now rendered him 'elpless.
Here: The Golden Book of Chemistry Experiments
As someone who has played with software based labs, it doesn't compare to the real thing. It's one thing to click on two test tubes and have a thrid change color, but it entirely different to see the color change in real life as you add the reagents.
Bingo. The same thing happens in astronomy, too. This summer I saw Saturn and its rings for the first time with my own eyes (well, through a telescope). It was a small white ball with thin bulges on the side, and yet that filled me with far more profound awe than all the high-res, full-colour pictures from the Voyager probes I've seen before.
"...think about how dangerous a keyboard or a mouse could be."
After all, they hold more & more different microbes than virtually any other surface on your desk.
Sad, but true. This is the same agency that nearly killed the sub-250cc motorcycle market because most of bikes (and ATVs as well) with engines that small are meant for kids to learn on. Yes, adults do occasionally ride 150-cc dirtbikes, but kids are the target user.
Why was this market nearly killed? The CPSC was afraid of kids licking the battery terminals and sucking on lead wheel-balancing weights. Never mind that kids can't really swallow these things, or that these parts won't poison you even if swallowed. They have lead, and lead is bad. The CPSC doesn't care to look any further than that.
"osake no hou ga, biiru yori ii" to omotteiru.
What this brouhaha is referring to is NOT to determine if a child may poke their eye out with a paperclip or cut themselves with the ruler. This is to determine if the makers of the kits must test these constituent parts for lead, which has been banned in toys.
Paper and pencils are pretty damned dangerous too! We'd better demolish all the schools before someone gets hurt! (Might actually make kids SMARTER the way things are going.)
Then lock up all the roleplayers. Forget the pencils! It's the dice, man! The DICE! You can choke on those things! (Nevermind the fact that if you started stuffing D20s into your mouth you probably deserve what happens.) And have you ever stepped on a D4?! They're goddamned CALTROPS!
Better lock me up, too! I'm obviously a dangerous and unbalanced individual; every time I hear about perfectly sane and rational decisions like these, I have an uncontrollable urge to set things on fire! Maybe people, too! We'll see.
Friend: "The NIC is misconfigured..." Me: "No prob, I'll just telnet in and fix it." *Silence*
This is where you're both wrong.
It's not about where you're schooled, it's about what you do with it. You don't have to go to ivy league or a public school or get schooling at all if you figure out a way to be successful.
If they're testing a ruler, fine. I can come up with a dangerous ruler. Maybe my ruler is lead-painted. I am entirely for dangerous shit in chemistry kits. But it's also fair to be 100% sure what goes in them.
The Consumer Product Safety commission should only be...
The Consumer Product Safety Commission is in the US. As part of that, they live in a culture where kids who eat paper clips, choke and die or play with rules like swords and cut off part of an ear or poke out someone's eye, have teams of lawyers ready to pounce on parents and tell them they deserve to be compensated billions of dollars for their loss.
It wasn't their kids fault for eating paper clips or playing 'swords'. After all, the big bad money profiting companies didn't WARN you about that 'risk'.
Long story short, the sue happy, refusal to accept personal responsibility, culture of the US is the disease. What the CPSC has to do is just the symptom. This is the same disease that causes many American's and American businesses to not be able to afford health insurance along with many doctors not entering the field because it's just too darn expensive to pay for malpractice insurance.
Hahaha, you're a funny guy! Public schools focusing on education, that's hilarious!
In the U.S., public schools are funded by property taxes. So in rich towns with high property taxes, the public schools can be good. Vast inequalities exist within the public system.
Ah, but rulers start the whole mine is bigger than yours argument. The government would perfer everyone to be equal!
Can != Will.
It doesn't teach kids to really explore or to think like a scientist.
Yes it does. What it -doesn't- necessarily do is encourage it (nothing says fun like funny colored smoke or explosions, eh?)
For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
Would you rather watch a movie about sex, or actually have sex?
Sometimes, nothing compares with the actual...errmmm..."hands-on"...experience.
MCSE? No, sir...I don't do Windows. Yes, I am an idealist. What's your point?
F*cking Rulers, How Do They Work?
- For the complete works of Shakespeare: cat
What do you need actual chemicals and stuff for, not to mention rulers and paper clips? Why not just a "My Science Kit" app, and do virtual experiments? Although I guess you could drop the PC on your foot or something, which could also be dangerous.
In a way, this is a metaphor for what I fear is happening at all levels. I worry that we are placing too much faith in mathematical models of reality, and spending too little time working with physical reality itself, not just at the grade-school level but throughout academic society. Math may be undervalued in some ways, but it has too much social prestige in other circles.
The smartest people I know spent their childhoods on farms doing stuff dangerous enough that they have scars to show for it.
The Safety Commission should be more concerned about what the junk on Disney Channel, MTV and others is teaching out kids than whether or not a freaking ruler might be dangerous.
The kids who are really interested in science and willing to learn about it will do so with or without having a science kit bought for them. There are plenty of kids who have science kits and don't do anything with them -- and there are even more kids without kits who find their own way to explore science. With the internet at your fingertips a trip to the hardware store has plenty of experiments to offer.
The Consumer Product Safety Improvement Act of 2008 (CPSIA) was pretty much knee-jerk reaction to some high-profile toy recalls that occurred in 2007 and 2008. While better standards were needed to protect children, many felt that this act went too far, too quickly and was even too vague for its own good.
The law requires that every batch of every product be tested by a third party for lead and phthalates (which can add up to be very expensive). This means that every time new plastic comes in for a new batch of rulers or they bring in some new paint, or even the metal strip in the ruler, all need to be tested for lead and phthalates. Even if nothing has changed since the last batch.
This law drove many companies out of business and nearly shuttered hundreds more before a last minute extension/clarifications were made early in 2009, I believe. Even some European companies (where the testing is more stringent) stopped importing their toys into the US with the new, higher cost as the reason. I'm not sure if this part has been cleared up or not, but the law also included local craftspeople who carve wooden toys or sew bibs (each piece of pine and each bolt of fabric would have to have been tested for lead and phthalates)
I work in a small, locally owned toy store and before the law science kits have already become much more simple (and boring in my opinion) since I was a kid. I assume this is due to companies concerned about litigation from parents who give a kit designed for a 10-year-old to their "really advanced" 5-year-old. We have discovered that 90% of kids are "advanced for their age" or at least that's what is said about the children when they are being shopped for.
Without granting exceptions to certain components of science kits (and perhaps a few other "toys") they will become even more simple and America will fall further behind the rest of the world in science and math proficiency.
Wat they should really be doing is forcing the producers of the rulers to test their shit beforehand, regardless as to whether it goes into a science kit or a plastic bag filled with rulers to be used in a display jar at a bookstore.
Just to play devil's advocate here: what amounts to reasonable precautions is a function of scale, because you can amortize the cost of each expected injury over a larger number of units shipped.
As a thought experiment, suppose Miss Jones the science teacher puts together a science experiment kit for each of her 30 students. A representative kit is then sent to a safety engineering firm, which charges $10K to conclude there is a 0.2% chance of injury from the ruler, and that this could be reduced to 0.1% by using a slightly different ruler.
Now it almost certain that nobody is gong to be hurt by the offending ruler, and the engineering investment of $10K prevents an expected 0.03 injuries. That's over $300,000 per injury averted. That makes no economic sense unless the injury is horrific (e.g. requires lifetime institutionalization).
Now suppose JonesCo puts together a similar kit, and expects to ship 30 thousand units. In that case, it is almost *certain* that somebody is going to get hurt, although any *individual's* chance is quite small. The expected number of injuries saved by the engineering study is now 30. Amortizing the $10K study costs over 30 injuries means that you've spent just over 300 per injury saved. This is not quite justifiable for things like paper cuts of course, but an emergency room visit probably costs more than that.
So: the costs involved with a safety review may or may not be justifiable depending on the number of units that will be shipped.
In either case, the safety of the pre-study and post-study kits are practically indistinguishable. As a parent, I wouldn't freak out if the Miss Jones kit was used in place of the JonesCo kit, because we are talking about very, very rare accidents. But those freak accidents *do* happen and are worth considering *collectively*. I say this as a parent who has taken a toddler to the emergency room for an injury at preschool who sent that child right back to the same school the next day with the heart shaped bead he'd shoved up into his sinuses in his pocket.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
You are exactly right. We moved a couple of years ago and the quality of the local school was the biggest single factor in deciding where we would live. We bought a low end home in a high end neighborhood and the public school is absolutely fantastic. New building, all new equipment, an abundance of parent volunteers, and fund raisers that raise crazy amounts of money for the schools. The maximum class size is 21 kids. The school has fully funded art, theater arts and music programs.
The downside is high property taxes. More than $600 / month on a $250k house. I think it's worth it though. I'm almost embarrassed to admit that I've found I really enjoy living in the suburbs.
What the story is really about is the committee trying to make their mandate apply to absolutely everything, regardless of whether it had any real chance of causing damage to children.
Which is what every beaurucracy does. Slowly expand it's boundaries to increase its size.
Why in the hell is a committee of five people given the power to destroy an entire market segment? At most, the committee should have the power to require a "might contain lead" label. Giving them the power to ban products is just ridiculous.
Aah, change is good. -- Rafiki
Yeah, but it ain't easy. -- Simba
The primary concern of schools is not giving the best education, it's giving the education that scores the highest on tests. These are not the same thing.
The law about testing everything for sale to a children under 13 is totally inflexible. Much of the testing is pointless. It is horrendously expensive, and the testing labs are hugely backed up. I've seen this from the viewpoint of an embedded developer -- one of the products I worked on never made it to market because the client had to divert the tooling budget to pay for lab testing of old products. Then they chopped bunches of sku's out of their product line because the cost of testing didn't pencil out. Later, they had to sell the company.
Look, 10 year old kids don't eat the motors from their slot cars. 4 year old kids don't gnaw on their night lights. Does it matter if the streamers on a kids bicycle contain phthalates? This madness has to stop. The law is inflexible and idiotic and is doing many millions of dollars of economic harm, killing excellent products like the science kits mentioned in the article, and has very little benefit.
There need to be safety standards, sure. But the law as currently formulated is the most insane piece of work to come from our government bureaucracy in decades.
golden book of chesmitry experiment
Make sure to follow safety rules.
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
visit randi.org
I agree very nearly... I just differ on who the powers that be are. It's not the government that desires a nation of idiot slaves - it's the corporations, that live and thrive on the power of consumerism. You can't have that without a large number of buyers, desperate to consume ever more, and easily lead by advertising to spend-spend-spend.
For the same reason kids should ride bikes instead of playing Grand Theft Bike IV. GTBIV is safer, and can be fun, but it's not a substitute for actually riding a bike.
My absolute, all-time, favorite science class was eighth grade science. We would have a short (ten minute) lecture at the beginning of class, then open our lab books and actually *do* the experiments. We mixed zinc and hydrochloric acid, then collected the gas that resulted in a test tube, and performed tests (like sticking a match in the test tube) to determine what properties the gas had (it was hydrogen, so you can see why the match test sticks in my mind). We poured a couple of drops of turpentine in the lid of a baby food jar, set it on fire, then collected the carbon that was given off. It was such a cool class, because we actually *did* stuff. I was utterly disappointed when I moved to a new school half-way through the semester, and the science class at the new school was your typical "read the book, listen to the lecture, watch the movie, try to stay awake" drivel.
MCSE? No, sir...I don't do Windows. Yes, I am an idealist. What's your point?
Especially if he's the infamous Little Johnny.
If rulers are too dangerous for these guys, just stop for a moment and think about how dangerous a keyboard or a mouse could be. It could never happen.
If rulers are two dangerous for these guys, just think about how they will handle the world as adults. What kind of job will they be able to handle as an adult when a simple ruler is considered a deathtrap? A stapler would probably be considered a weapon of mass destruction.
Who would win this election: Andrew Weiner vs Andrew Weiner's weiner.
Having taught English for Speakers of Other Languages (ESOL) to American exchange students - yes, their standard of reading and writing was low enough to put them into a class aimed at people who understand no English at all - I can safely say that the privately educated ones have the lowest standard of education. People who have been privately educated in the US seem to be good at sports and have bits and pieces of "rote" learning, but cannot effectively use language because they simply haven't been taught how.
If you paid for your child to have a private education in a US school, I hope you're not too upset to learn that when they reach university they will be able to read, write and speak English about as well as an average British 11-year-old.
That's a very optimistic view. Unfortunately it's also entirely naive. The fact of the matter is there's no way you're going to be able to do a anything if you get a poor education. If your school can't afford more than 1-2 textbooks per class and your entire recess is spent trying not to get shot rather than trying to have fun then you're screwed, the end. Unfortunately, this situation exists in some public schools around the country.
-1 disagree is not a modifier for a reason. -1 troll, flaimbait, redundant, overrated are NOT acceptable substitutes.
I think he's the sort who'd ban motorcycle helmets for people who are younger than 25 or so...
;).
Maybe have them fill out organ donor forms too, even if its to say "Not donating".
There's plenty to be learned in the outdoors. More practical too. Show a kid how to make a solar oven or maybe collect moisture from the ground with plastic sheet. These skills will be more practical anyway in the long run.
boycott slashdot February 10th - 17th check out: altSlashdot.org
http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=1948#comic
go forth and explore.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/21654883/The-Golden-Book-of-Chemistry-Experiments
I would definitely let my kids do this.
I agree with Darkness404 completly, to further this along though the kid that drinks the stuff in the chemistry set on a dare is going to find some other way way to hurt them self even if you take those chemicals away. The same can be said about the kid who chokes on a paperclip or however it is they suspect injury by paperclip can occur. The point is neither of those reasons should suffocate every other childs natural curiosity.
An anecdote my father tells...
Where he worked, there was a safety awareness/training program. As an award, for finishing the program, or for having a good safety record, was a pocket knife. Nearly every person who got one of these knives cut himself with it soon afterward. ...Except my father, who had been shown how (and why) to handle knives safely when he was very young.
One of my lasting memories is of my father showing me why "sticking your fingers in a fan is a bad idea" by using a small metal fan to totally destroy a carrot. You can't tell me that hands-on experience should not be given at a young age. The problem comes when the parents don't have the proper experience either. They fear the risk because they don't know it, and pass it on to their children.
Found this location. No logins or accounts required.
The new Apple keyboards are great for zombie attacks.
I drank what? -- Socrates
And then someone puts lead in the paint for kids toys or weedkiller in toothpaste or forgets to sterilize medical supplies.
We know JUST what happens when you don't regulate the shit out of everything, private industry does a runner. They always have, always will. Even if they risk getting a bullet for it like in China.
It is very fine to say regulation isn't needed, when you grew up safe because of regulation. But without it, do you REALLY think private business would follow any self imposed safety guidelines?
But the article is the typical right wing scare mongering they do so well. Nothing has been banned. They just refused to give these companies a default pass to include the most crap materials they could outsource to China.
Anti-regulation == American car industry making cars with spikes aimed straight at your heart. They didn't make collapsable steering wheels because they wanted to, they were forced to.
Funny how people who are anti-regulation never seems to be able recall the horror stories of absent regulation... until it comes time to sue.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
They also tried to shut down the amateur pyrotechnics hobby by claiming that bulk chemicals were a "consumer product".
This agency should be eliminated entirely.
I've had enough abrasive sigs. Kittens are cute and fuzzy.
In high school I had a knack for computers and programming and thought going into college I would be a doctor or programmer. It took a year, but I finally realized that, after disliking chemistry in high school, I rather enjoyed it in college and didn't like the other stuff so much. Once we got into lab it was just like I was a kid again - mixing chemicals, trying to impress people with my ability to pour without a funnel, precise measurements - doing stuff I did when I was a kid with a chemistry set.
Seriously, where would we get chemists, geologists, or biologists if we don't have kids experiencing these things in a rich way when they are young? If I wouldn't have had that experience I would have been a bored unhappy CS major.
What do you need actual chemicals and stuff for, not to mention rulers and paper clips? Why not just a "My Science Kit" app, and do virtual experiments?
a part of me just died a little after reading this.
When I was a kid: Erector Sets had many choking hazard screws and metal pieces with unfinished razor sharp edges. Chemistry sets had actual chemicals in them. And I mixed them ALL together. And put electrodes in the goop and plugged it in the wall. A microscope kit came with xylene and actual glass slides etc. I set off rockets in the basement. I hooked all the transformers my dad had end to end to try to make a million volts. I took my prescription for potassium iodide to school and was called to the principal's office because some kid said I threw "acid" at him. I threw nothing at anyone. I made free iodine from my medicine by mixing it with acetic acid. Cool purple clouds!!! I made balsa airplanes using sharp razor blades and toxic glue. The rubber powered ones flew so high they looked like tiny dots in the sky. I made model cars with working suspension and purple metalflake paint jobs. I made a Battling Betsy tank with TWO electric motors that was nosebleed fast. Count me in for the Visible V8 and the Visible Radial Airplane Engine. AND IT WAS ALL GREAT!!!!! I am alive and well and have all my fingers and toes. Today I hear people are worried about paperclips and rulers being dangerous and chemistry is reduced to baking soda and vinegar. This is pitiful and sad.
Sorry, but gray text on gray background is making my eyes bleed.
My Physics Teacher my junior year of HS did something called "Bubbles of Death". He did it as an intro to what a chemical reaction can do (heat + natural gas + O2 = flame), and was notorious for making his bubble tower large enough to create a fairly large flame cloud. In my class it was big enough to push the door open, and leave a black mark on the ceiling. I believe he was banned from doing that as it was getting annoying to continually replace ceiling tiles.
Experience. There is a big difference between trusting one's own senses examining something directly over trusting what a computer tells you is a good approximation of the same experience. You could just as well say it is the same to read a book on the topic or look at a video of experiments being done.
Part of the reason science majors are made to do real experiments in their field, rather than run through simulations is to get the experience of actually doing things. Yes many experiments like say the Millikan Oil Drop, or the many wet chemistry precipitation experiments could easily be simulated on a computer, but that would mean the student never learns how experiments are actually done and how hard they can be. Millikan in particular I think helps give a student an appreciation for just how hard science has been in the past.
a strange game. The only winning move is not to play.
Would you rather watch a movie about sex, or actually have sex?
The answer to that question depends entirely on the other person. For example, if it's another guy I suspect that only a small percentage of the /. population would pick option 2. Similarly, if the reaction involves caesium and water (for example), I think I'd go with the video - or, at least, watch the experiment from the other side of the room...
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
If we are going down this road then why not shut down all the industries that are putting chemicals into the air down the street from the local parks and schools, the companies that taint water and make beaches useless. These kids are probably lucky to get chemistry sets they'll probably find a fix for the massive amounts of pollution in their neighborhoods. If anything these are the same people who should be ordering all children to stay inside with out an approved breathing apparatus.
A loop, by its nature, continues. If that didn't make sense, start reading this sentence again.
Half of us would not be here today; or would be severely maimed based on this kind of thinking.
--- I was far from home, and the spell of the Eastern sea was upon me. -Lovecraft-
The same goes for private schools. There are private schools that take money and do little for students.
The private model is not inherently superior to the public in terms of education gained for a given amount of money per student. Private schools do generally do better but that is because they are able to refuse students, and generally get higher income students with more parental support. Public schools have to take all comers and their income is not derived by the number of students they have to teach.
Yes competition with the promise of income and wealth is often a strong motivator but many seem to forget that it is not the only reason people are motivated to do things.
Come on. Who else here remembers when chemistry sets gave you truly dangerous stuff to work with? Not just toxic stuff, not just stuff that could make rapid oxidizers... who here ever had a chemistry set that came with a spinthariscope and a radium source? (Or the really old ones that had a shard of Uranium?)
The closest thing to this I've ever had was a broken Luminous Dial watch. The most dangerous thing I ever had in a chemistry set was a sample of Mercury. That was fun and is hopefully the reason I'm insane today.
-fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
New Consumer Product Safety Commission slogan: "To serve and obey and guard consumers from harm"
[Insert pithy quote here]
While it is a bit funny, Don't forget chemical Hazards. Cadmium, Lead, Mercury, etc. Especially if any of the materials come from China, You should test their chemical composition. China Hasn't yet gotten the Memo, that we don't like Toxic Cadmium in our McDonalds happy meal toys (Age 4+).
Your comment made me think of the Star Trek episode, A Taste of Armageddon Taking virtual life (maybe that's not the right word) to the extreme.
-- I ignore anonymous replies to my comments and postings.
Quick, give them rulers, scissors, and knives. Quickly now, before they breed!
"Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
I have always said that nothing gets the chicks like the mad skillz to pour without a funnel.
Have you seen how much money is spent on the D.C. public schools? Nearly all of them serve primarily poor students. Strangely enough, it costs more to educate a student in a D.C. public school than in a private school. Naturally, this was an embarrassment to the establishment, so they eliminated the voucher program. Have to keep the peasants in line!
Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
As someone with a lot of knowledge about regulatory requirements and conformity testing, I can say without a doubt the CPSC is on the right track here.
The industry's response is all posturing. Testing the metal edges in a ruler for harmful chemicals such as lead is very easy to do, and really not very expensive. Traceability of the raw materials to a source heat lot is essentially free. A single heat lot could produce tens of thousands of rulers, so a single metallurgical test may add a penny or two for a whole lot. There exist many standards for the plastic itself with regards to flame resistance and plastics testing but there is no national standard that I'm aware of regarding plastics toxicity and what is an acceptable level of lead and mercury.
If indeed the companies discontinue the kits because of the safety testing requirements, then that is basically an admission that they were never doing the safety testing of their own volition to begin with. I'm not even going to make up some bullshit "it's for the kids" argument. Fact is, citizens expect that the products companies sell are safe, whether they be for kids, adults or even pets. Kids may be the first to draw attention where a lack of safety testing exists, but we should all be demanding safer products for ourselves.
Instead of resisting this, they should be taking the opportunity to give themselves market differentiation by voluntarily starting safety testing.
You can't legislate goodness. Let each to his own destiny, by will of his freely made choices.
most people prefer sex with a real partner as opposed to jerking-off to porn?
You're on /.
Most people _here_ ... ah the joke writes itself.
Display some adaptability.
The kits need "vigorous" testing? Really? The dictionary defines vigorous as characterized by forceful and energetic action or activity; "a vigorous hiker"; "gave her skirt a vigorous shake". So, these kits have to be violently shaken while being tested? The testers have to jump up and down 'vigorously' while testing? Or could it be the kits should be ' rigorously ' tested, as in rigidly accurate; allowing no deviation from a standard; "rigorous application of the law"; "a strict vegetarian"
Any sort of a realistic chemical simulation that could do very basic college-level chemistry would require a big-ass data center just to crunch the numbers. So it's not really feasible. You can simulate certain limited scenarios, but for a lab simulation where you can just play with things and see what transpires -- we're a few centuries away from that I'd say.
A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
My little town in Queens, NY was far from rich, but we had a decent high school. Not cutting edge, but moderately well equipped. Good enough teachers, courses and materials that getting a good education was each student's choice.
Don't take it personally, but I'm not going to read your pithy response to my post.
Did they keep misspelling colour and centre and have trouble locating the boot of a car?
Danger and fear will lead to curiosity and respect. By rounding every corner and adding sponge to every surface these important things will never get taught or learned. Like common one of the greatest feelings of getting to ride a bicycle was being able to not fall on my face shouldn't we be encouraging this kind of thing? It's not like I think chemistry sets for kids should come with toxic chemicals but seeing a reaction that fizzes out of control, let's out a loud bang or changes the composition of the chemicals in question would give me the same feeling as riding a bike for the first time why should we keep it back from an entire generation?
A loop, by its nature, continues. If that didn't make sense, start reading this sentence again.
Because every year government spends more, borrows more, and seizes more power over the people, yet the end result is worse government, not better government. Because the most expensive, most powerful goverment AND world empire in history (with military bases in some 150 countries around the world) STILL "needs" more spending, more borrowing, and more power over the people.
Do you see a trend here? I sure do. The people at the top of the pyramid aren't interested at all in good government; they're interested in cash flow, and in general, expanding their business so that they can better exploit it for personal gain.
Exactly! I think using real chemicals encourages kids to pay closer attention as well. If you're using a computer, what difference does it make if you screw something up? You can just keep clicking around until you get it right. Using real (i.e. limited) materials encourages you to critically think about what's happened, why things worked/didn't work rather than just blindly trying each possible solution until one works.
Our relentless pursuit of 'safety' will result in an entire generation of morons.
If one wants to learn, what is needed is proper instruction and access to materials, not new legislation.
I grew up outside the US. When I was little it was not uncommon to hear people making fun of safety label of products coming from the US. I used to wonder what kind of people need a warning saying 'do not chew the electric cord' on an electric heater, or a label saying 'do not place your hand inside while operating' on a food processor. By limiting access to learning kits and putting more responsibility on the government than on the parents and teachers, we are shooting ourselves in the foot, and the upcoming generations in the head. You cannot educate using fear. Let the little kids alone. Chances are they will not kill themselves using a ruler.
That's what the powers that be want. You think they want us to explore things for ourselves? To LEARN on our own without relying on the government to tell us what is fact and what is fiction? No, they want us to punch in, punch out, then go home and watch TV and be told what's going on.
Sorry, [Citation Needed].
Look, I hate the "powers that be" as much as you do -- probably more so, actually -- but I think we hate them for different reasons. You seem to ascribe an intelligence and forethought to them that seems to be to be unsupportable and laughable.
I hate them because they lack intelligence and forethought.
Wonderful capcha: "dismiss."
The primary concern of schools is not giving the best education, it's giving the education that scores the highest on tests. These are not the same thing.
That's only really true for 'lower class' schools. 'Rich' public schools have the benefits of both an interested parental body and enough income from property taxes to not be dependent upon federal funding as a make/break for their budget.
At that point they're trying to please the parents, not the fed.gov.
I don't read AC A human right
Slashdot - thank you once again for making me glad that I didn't have children.
http://www.masturbateforpeace.com/
The funny part is that I'm from a state that 45th or lower on all the good statistics and 5th or higher on all the bad ones, and our public schools weren't nearly that bad. We had kinda big classes, and there was non-zero violence but at least we all had books and the violence was generally performed bare handed or with the nearest blunt object at hand.
People who have been privately educated in the US seem to be good at sports and have bits and pieces of "rote" learning,
Depends upon the private school. There are 'private' schools that are sports training camps in all but name, there are boarding schools, reform schools, religous schools, etc...
Basically US schools, private or public, are all over the map. On average, private beats public though it's not always due to how well the school teaches compared to seperating out the bad ones. But many public schools have problems when even the REFORM private school, that specializes in teaching student kicked out of public school due to various violations*, produces kids who perform better.
*Like bringing weapons to school, fighting, skipping, whatever.
I don't read AC A human right
When I was a kid, I made gunpowder by:
- grinding up sulfur candles purchased from the local store
- making charcoal by charring wood on a small fire outside
- making saltpeter from cow manure from local fields
So get your kid a book like:
http://www.amazon.com/Do---Yourself-Gunpowder-Cookbook/dp/0873646754/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1285872731&sr=1-1
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
I'm afraid that the contradiction between your stated position and your sig just made my head esplode.
If these companies stop manufacturing the kits, it doesn't mean that they're the evil suxors, it means that they don't think that they can do the testing and make a profit. The first rule of understanding capitalism is: Don't ascribe to malice what can be adequately explained by economic motives.
Interested in a Flash-based MAME front end? Visit mame.danzbb.com
Holy Crap! $600 / month in taxes? I'm hoping that's a mistake and you mean $600 / year! Admittedly, I don't live in the US, so I'm not familiar with how the taxes balance out, but if I were paying that kind of property taxes, I'd expect my house to be valued at around $1.5 million. Or are you taxed based solely on frontage rather than assessed value?
Hello Joshua--I suppose you're posting this via abacus?
Interested in a Flash-based MAME front end? Visit mame.danzbb.com
not a toy intended for kids older than the "lets eat random crap" stage.
Part of the problem is that legislation is also intended to address the idea that parents tend to have multiple kids of multiple ages, and a toddler may very well get ahold of a toy intended for an 8 year old and try to eat it because 8 year olds aren't really known for picking up after themselves. Remember, lowest common denominator.
I don't read AC A human right
That age may be higher than you realize... My girlfriend's 7-year-old god-daughter had to have surgery to remove the 7 or so Bucky Balls which she'd eaten...
smack it across your fingers !between! knuckles--the fleshy bit
now 'windmill' your arms a lot and hard...
raises the COOLEST welts ever.. I once had 4 perfect rings across all 4 fingers of my right hands, all between my 1st joint nearest the palm, and the next joint...
(yes, I hit myself 16 times for this)
every day http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Random
I'm deeply sorry, but the problem of stupid children used to take care of itself..
"You live and learn, or you don't live long"...
Survival of the fittest. Period.
Harsh? Damn right. The world is harsh. Reality is harsh. "Natural laws have no pity." Not everyone is going to be a rapper, or basketball star. Not everyone can be mayor of a small town, not know that Africa is a *continent* , and still almost become the 2nd most powerful person on Earth.
As a society, we've robbed a few generations, now, of the basic skills once universally understood to be needed..necessary.. for the human race to *survive*.
"Do not handicap your children by making their lives easy."
Rome is burning. There's too many stupid people, and not enough large animals to eat them. And without a doubt, the "think of the children" cult hand-ringers that have done nothing but make our children universally unprepared to live in the real world as productive entities are guilty, of genocide. Yes, it's genocide in slow motion, but genocide just the same.
And.. Invisible deity of your choice save us. They vote.
We have discovered that 90% of kids are "advanced for their age" or at least that's what is said about the children when they are being shopped for.
Probably because so many toys have their 'appropriate age' groups set assuming the tyke is an idiot.
I gave a toy computer that was intended for 4 year olds to my 2 year old nephew. It's his favorite toy. It's got functionality he doesn't use yet, but he's already past the 'age 4 appropriate' functions.
It's a lot like dress size, I guess. The more upscale you go the bigger a 'size 8' ends up being.
I don't read AC A human right
What's happening here is that every class might have 1 Ralph Wiggum and the 29 other students have to be lowered to that standard in the name of protecting Ralph from himself.
as well as an average British 11-year-old
Surely not THAT bad???
... dunno what else it reacts with offhand though.
Well, that's what your science kit is for :-)
Interested in a Flash-based MAME front end? Visit mame.danzbb.com
Learning is dangerous. Don't let kids do it!
The one and only Brick Kit, which includes one ordinary red clay brick purported to have "educational value", was turned down by the Federal Things Ought To Be Safe Commission. In a 24-11 vote by the twenty-three commissioners (many of whom have last names similar to important campaign contributors and know how to stuff ballot boxes) it was determined that the Brick Kit was inherently unsafe and inappropriate to all children under 63. The main reservation held by the commission was voiced by Muncie Burbek Torrind, Chairperson, "As a manufacturer of Glass Houses on the Beltway, all I can say is that a kit of this nature could have consequences."
Corporations do want a nation of idiot slaves, and one of the ways they accomplish that is with government. Neither corporations nor the government want a nation of free thinkers - they're both equally guilty. The more people are inside watching American Idol or football (all the while being brainwashed to consume consume consume), the less they're out discussing REAL issues with REAL people. It has become a social faux pas to even discuss politics. Too many free thinkers and corporations and government wouldn't be able to get away with half the shit they do.
They do this at my school. Sometimes.
Oh good fucking grief.
The CPSC are a bunch of idiots. And you are right with them, that's for sure.
It used to be that our kids could get actually USEFUL science kits. Ones that would let them build things, try out different experiments, and yes, occasionally make something that smelled bad, or smoked, made a small bang. And we used to say one simple thing about them: parents, don't let your kid play with the kit unsupervised.
Now, of course, thanks to a generation of deadbeat fucking morons who think that kids raise themselves, we are instead stuck in a world where anything that could possibly be dangerous for kids is off-limits. Small wonder most American kids grow up today with their faces in front of the TV, either watching brain-rotting crap or playing repetitive, non-inspiring video games that should come with a warning "imagination not required" on the side, and getting fatter every day from it.
Instead of having the kids run around the world, try things, learn, and get the occasional scraped knee or other injury, now it's nothing but "OMG don't let the kids outside it might be DANGEROUS out there!"
While we're busy "thinking of the children", their brains are rotting away. Way to go, parents.
The first weapon chosen was the paperclip at 7:11:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKzd5N50eKc
I hate them because they lack intelligence and forethought.
Sorry, [Citation Needed]
The Government has constructed a system where anybody who does want to speak out, voice their opinion, question the gov't, etc. is painted as unamerican, racist, a terr'ist, crazy, or any combination thereof.
Do you really think the people orchestrating that are stupid shortsighted idiots? They are smart.
That's not the only industry this is destroying: http://money.cnn.com/2009/01/14/smallbusiness/toy_law_threatens_small_companies.smb/index.htm
Old-fashioned toymakers cannot afford lead testing for handmade items. I'm nauseated by Congress making up a new something-or-other every time we have a new scare. The lead scare is over, but the costly boards are still here, doing stupid stuff like this.
The government can't save you.
I'm also a resident of New Jersey, and our local property taxes really are that high, although it varies by locality.
Property taxes are based on assessed value. They cover lots of services that may be provided at a different level (province/state, national) where you live.
Some of the things they cover (though sometimes supplemented by State or Federal funds): local government (council, mayor, staff, etc), county government (the level between local and state), schools, local roads, emergency services, municipal management, local police, local courts, county police (sheriff's department), local parks, libraries, etc.
In addition, here in NJ we also have the delight of funding some other things via property taxes: graft, buyouts of overpaid local/county contracts, lots of debt due to Christie Whitman's cutting of tax revenue while increasing the state budget, etc. The last one pisses me off because it passed the cost of a lot of services to the local level, while she took credit for lowering state taxes while bemoaning the high property taxes that resulted.
I'm in a very low-tax area for NJ, since we have a few corporate world headquarters in my town of very big companies that are HUGE ratables. I pay about half of what parent to your post does, but next town over they pay just as much, of not more, than him.
"Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
similar things, similar ages- and we thought the kids in the UK couldn't do this stuff. I bet the kids in either place can't do them now.
While a plain steel paperclip is probably not in danger of lead contamination, coated/painted ones are, especially those coming from China.
Rulers can have the markings painted with lead paint. Lead Oxide is a fantastic paint additive: it's cheap, colorful, sticks well, stays dissolved in solution, etc. If it weren't for the fact its toxic it would probably still be the primary pigment in white paint.
You just made that up. That's not a rule, maybe it's YOUR rule.
If you legislate it, there is a guaranteed level playing field because all companies are required to meet the same standard. Most product safety certifications in the US are voluntary, but companies do it anyway because people want safer products and retailers demand that manufacturers do 3rd party safety testing. The market pays for it because the market finds value in that.
The same is true here. Schools, or students could bear a very slightly higher cost for safer kits because that safety has value. If sales go down because less kits are sold overall, then that is the cost of safety. I'd rather some anonymous ruler manufacturer in China suffer a marginal loss of sales than a bunch of school kids get lead poisoning; don't you?
As an aside, my sig was written with respect to personal freedoms and politicians who think they can legislate morality. I think it's very unamerican for any law to restrict what people do when there is no harm done. For instance, gay marriage harms no one but offends the religious(who've successfully destroyed the sanctity of marriage themselves), prohibition of liquor sales on sundays, laws against certain sexual acts(which are still on the books in some places), etc.
From a purely religious viewpoint, it's illogical. Religious fundamentalists seem certain that bad people are going to hell. And yet they deem fit to render their own judgment on people, as if when Jesus said it is gods right alone to judge people that he meant "except for these other people". Do they have so little faith in gods ability to judge that they feel they must step in to be the executioner themselves? Fuckin religious people. Can't even follow their own manual.
Anyway, if your head didn't fully asplode, that's where my sig came from.
You can't legislate goodness. Let each to his own destiny, by will of his freely made choices.
When I was a kid - fifty years ago - I ran around with a lead bar in my pocket. I used to hold it in my fist (no, not violent) and squeeze it, because... well, because I could. That bar eventually changed shape until it fit my hand. I held that thing in my hot, sweaty palms for must have been hundreds of hours. I also held pools of mercury, double handfuls, we used to play with it; I had a huge jar that I got from an old furnace warehouse. I never tried to drink it, or eat the lead. I'm cancer free (actually, I was born with a tumor they removed, and none since then), relatively healthy except where I've broken things myself, and still smarter than any of these idiots who want to restrict everything in sight from everyone in order that they are (cough) safer. I swam and tubed in the Delaware river, unsupervised. Across it, for hours in the rapids, in still pools and from the surface to about 20 feet deep. I went caving. Deep caving. I went cliff climbing. We camped in the woods. One time, a friend, about my age, 13 or so, we got a in boat and floated down the Delaware for about a week. Holy crap was that fun. I had a chemistry set; my sister a biology set, complete with a truly awesome microscope (our dad was an SF writer with a degree in biology... he gave cool gifts from time to time.) She would get water from stagnant ponds, while I enjoyed separating H from O and enhancing various combustion events with the resulting O. My friend Mark and I used to stand at the head of the NY subway trains (this was about 6th grade) and ride them -- all day. That'd turn a token into a huge entertainment permit. We hung out at the museum of natural history. I have some great stories about that. We'd go out to Coney Island and swim. We hiked in the woods. We biked between small towns down the side of the highway. We became musicians. We drove fast (for the times) cars; I had a roadrunner and an awesome GTO. We got laid. A lot. There was a pirate radio station. Concerts. Woodstock. We drank. We did drugs. I got caught, and suffered a year of incarceration with violent, nasty kids from Philly; so I learned to fight in order to not be beaten bloody every night. Check it out... the first really bad thing to happen to me, and what caused it, supervised it, created the framework for it? It was the bloody GOVERNMENT, that's what... trying to "help." Wankers.
When I read that some... unprintable idiot... wants to keep rulers - RULERS - out of chemistry kits, because they're "potentially dangerous", it just makes me want to beat them about the head and shoulders with a wet noodle. What useless, pandering, socially destructive and chickenshit human beings these people are. I pity, really honestly pity, the kids of today, living in their figurative rubber suits with attached life preservers, GPS tags, and pocket treatise on the evils of anything that even remotely might be fun.
Here's a story for you. My mother - generally open minded, but a bit protective - took me to the hobby store in Port Jervis one time, and I expressed a wish for this huge, multi-door folded-in-on-itself-like-a-tesseract (or so it seemed to me) chemistry set. She looked at it, and told me, "no, it says it's not safe for your age group." Or something very much like that, I guess I don't remember the wording anymore. Anyway, I had a small "safe" set. So I made her a bet. I said if I could show her that the little set I had wasn't "safe", would she let me have the big set? She agreed.
So the next day, I showed up in her room (ground level on a hill), crossed my arms, and waited. Downstairs, some iron filings, Oxygen, and hydrogen reached "bang" when the glass vessels over the little alcohol burner collapsed and broke, and all of the basement windows blew out with a huge roar. I still remember the dust motes blown out of the cracks between the floorboards of my mom's bedroom dancing in the sunlight from the window.
She took me right over to get the big set. Then she made me mow the lawn all summer to pay for the windows.
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
Traceability of the raw materials to a source heat lot is essentially free. A single heat lot could produce tens of thousands of rulers, so a single metallurgical test may add a penny or two for a whole lot.
That really assumes they manufacture the rulers themselves. Of coarse they make science kits, so they probably buy the rulers from some other company and put them in the box.
Chemistry kits have been using extremely low concentrations of chemicals for many many years. It's got nothing to do with the CPSC and more to do with product liability, and surprise surprise, cost.
If you want your kids to have USEFUL chemistry sets, by the chemicals, beakers, burners, etc. yourselves. Don't go buying a $49.99 chemistry set off the internet and get pissed when it doesn't have a huge vial of potassium chlorate for your kids to play with(an exciting but dangerous chemical).
You can't legislate goodness. Let each to his own destiny, by will of his freely made choices.
In which case they can simply use the certificate of conformity from the original manufacturer. The original manufacturer keeps the COC's and metallurgical sample testing results on file from the original heat lot. Safety doesn't have to cost much. All of this could be done at very little cost to anyone, but the companies resist because they would rather not have to reject anything which could cost them money.
You can't legislate goodness. Let each to his own destiny, by will of his freely made choices.
I live in Canada and my property taxes are lower ($300/month on million dollar or so home) . However, I wager that *all* my other taxes are much higher. Sales tax (12%), gasoline tax (who knows but gas is at $4.23 a US gallon in USD), of course income tax. We also pay extra for things like sewer connection and usage. I am currently doing a renovation and there are huge fees that must be paid to the municipality for the privileged of being able to build. Even larger fees if you need to connect or reconnect to any municipal services.
Anyhow, my point is that looking only at property taxes is comparing apples and oranges. It's the overall tax burden that is important.
When I have a kid, I'm going to look up the set list from a 1960's chemistry kit (I still have the manual), buy the equipment, and lay my hands on as many of the chemicals as I can.
Part of the stupidity is, of course, the ridiculous prohibitions on "shipping chemicals" these days. It's easier to go out and get several points of rather impure potassium nitrate (fertilizer) from a feed store than it is to get a very small amount of pure stuff from a chemical supply company, packaged and labeled.
Of course, you could also teach your kid methods for purifying chemicals... but they you're a mean, evil nasty terrarist rawr.
FFS, they can't describe any number of chemicals that "asplode" on television these days. Thermite is a binary compound and they had to "hide" what one of the components is, I mean come on, how stupid is that? Mr. Wizard, back in the day, used to tell you every bit of what was used - to recreate some of the experiments, they specifically said to have your parents go out and buy certain things (dry cleaning bag + alcohol burner = hot air balloon?) and do it safely WITH them; these days, even for easily safely try-able stuff, Mythbusters has to stick a big "don't try this at home EVAR" warning on the front of every show lest some little moron injure himself. And their dedicated "DO try this at home" book has been languishing at the publishers for over two years now from what I hear.
and why is base 10 any less arbitrary than any other system of measurement? So you're basing your system on the number of fingers you have, rather than the average length of a person's foot, big deal.
He tried to explain it but you missed it. We humans count in base 10. You may say it's arbitrary and it could be 8 or 12 or whatever, but that is how it is, regardless of what "system" we use. Since that is the base we use, it is the base in which arithmetic comes naturally, 5x10=50 5x100=500 and so on.
Now given this, which appears more sensible:
a) a system of measurement that follows the orders of magnitude of the base we use. 10, 100, 1000 and so on, OR:
b) a system of measurement in a different base, let's say 12, BUT represented in base 10 for math: 12, 144, 1728 and so on.
So choosing metric system is not so much a matter of "sophistication" as much as being the right thing to do. On the other hand, choosing a different base altogether when all your math is in base 10 is rather troglodyte.
Unfortunately, in America things must always be represented in a "us vs them" fashion in order to polarize the public, so that is why metric will not be "accepted" even if it makes the most sense.
I went through 12 years of parochial(private) education and there was a wide range of people in those schools. From the very poor to the well-to-do, they all attended if they so desired. I don't know of anyone who was ever turned away because of inability to pay. Those kids old enough to work were offered after-school jobs and the balance of their tuition was paid for with scholarships and what was referred to as "worthy student" funds that were created and maintained through donations.
As to the quality of education, it was far better than public school. A big part of why it was better is because more was required of the student, and they were held accountable. They weren't passed on to the next grade if they flunked out, and the parents were always notified when a kid wasn't doing his homework and failing in any class. Nobody failed unless they wanted to as there were always resources available to provide tutoring either from another student in a work-study program or a teacher. A lot of effort was put forth in making sure the poorest of the kids succeeded.
"while democracy seeks equality in liberty, socialism seeks equality in restraint and servitude." de Tocqueville
Its getting harder and harder to pracice hobby chemistry
We have the "war on drugs" making chemicals with many legitimate uses hard to get just because ONE of the 100s of uses for that chemical happens to be the production of an illegal drug.
Other chemicals are hard to get because they happen to have uses in fireworks or explosives (in addition to all the other legitimate uses)
Chemicals are being restricted because of the "war on terror" (just ask any rocket hobbiest how its gotten harder to get rocket fuel because its now classified as an "explosive" even though rocket fuel that explodes instead of burning is the LAST thing manufacturers and users of rocket fuel want)
Lab equipment and glassware is also getting harder to just buy (again due to concerns about the "war on drugs", "war on terror" etc)
And then we have science kits that have no real experiments because even 100s of pages of warnings arent good enough to shield the manufacturer from liability because some kid mixed household cleaner with one of the chemicals in the chemistry set and hurt themselves.
"the more we can watch the US slip further and further into the dark ages..."
The Dark Ages had religion. Science won't hep us get to Hebbin'.
"This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
Your anecdotal evidence does not agree with my anecdotal evidence? Eh? Eh? I was going to give a description of my contradicting experiances but realized whats the point. How do you spell experiance anyway?
I could pregnate you from across the room if i wanted, so... I mean... might as well.
You're right, it's almost impossible to compare. I would have to add up all the explicit taxes and then also include things like health insurance.
How did we get to this point?
I guess it's a freakin' miracle I survived childhood what with having an Erector set (Ooh! Dangerous screwdrivers), a Gilbert Chemlab (Omygod there are so many nasty things in one of those it boggles the mind), a microscope (Horrors! You could cut yourself with those glass slides), Heathkits (Giving a kid a soldering iron? What, are you nuts?!) and, hell, I can't even count the number of things I had as a kid that would now be banned for some perceived danger to children. Let's face it, just about everything kids played with back when I was growing up would now be taken off the market by the Toy Police; they'd find something wrong with nearly everything.
Why don't we just place children in a bubble at birth to protect them from all hazards? How long before these "safety panel" idiots actually start considering that in the name of protecting the children? (My guess is sooner than we think.)
CUR ALLOC 20195.....5804M
Not really impossible... All of the data is available in the cost of living surveys that governments do. You just have to go look at it.
the tragic and appalling numbers of budding geniuses we've lost due to the reckless dissemination of these heinous measuring devices. Oh the humanity.
So has the testing process itself been tested with the same rigor and thoroughness as it wants to test paperclips? Is there any reason to think that testing common items actually makes them safer? If so, (and that's a big if) how much safer? What is the cost per injury averted? What are the severities of those injuries? Is this coming from actual data or bullshit "linear no-threshold" models of risk?
Most importantly, can the testing be done for less than the price of a handful of the kits? Otherwise fewer types of science kits will be produced, fewer kits will be sold, barriers to entry will rise, cottage industry will be wiped out. And the kits won't actually be any safer.
Not that safety should be the goal - riskier kits are better than perfectly safe kits if they are even more educational or useful. Kids should have access to surplus electronics equipment and parts with lead, cadmium, arsenic, high voltages, high currents, hot soldering irons, capacitors and batteries that might explode or catch on fire if miswired, chemistry sets with strong acids and flammable, volatile organic solvents and poisonous reagents that could be used to make explosives and drugs. If Americans weren't devolving into such servile, gutless, tube-fed pussies, any damned bureaucrat who tried to get in the way of real learning with such authoritarian "safety" edicts would be tarred and feathered and used for lawn-dart practice.
"Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery?" - Patrick Henry
It's times like these I wonder what R. Lee Ermy would say about this?
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But this neurotic fucking crap... Uggh too much.
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I like this woman - she questions things and can think for herself.
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http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2010/s3025418.htm
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http://abcnews.go.com/video/playerIndex?id=7553031
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Voting up, Voting down - If I really gave a fuck about your approval or not, I'd come and ask you.
Wow... these people would have kittens if they ever saw my old copy of 'Mr Wizard's Science Secrets'
Were those voucher schools receiving vouchers accepting children with learning disabilities and emotional problems at the same rate as public schools? Was there similar involvement of parents between the public and voucher schools? Has education received overall benefit from the voucher program? Research is showing that the answer to all of these questions is "no." Voucher programs end up gutting the public school system, while providing benefit to a comparably small amount of students.
There was a time not long ago that our public school system was the envy of the world... but that strength has been taken by a number of things: Decreased per student funding. Increased regulated coddling of children. Abysmal student/teacher ratios. Immense legal obstacles to disciplining or even failing children. Over powerful unions that serve to keep poor teachers in the classroom. Elimination of almost all the classes that actually impact a person's life: technical, trade, civics, phy-ed, home-ec and arts. No Child Left Untested rather than teaching to individual strengths, proclivities and interests. Valuing self-esteem over pride in achievement. Public school systems in our cities have been attacked from the right and the left, from politicians and from parents, from businessmen and lawyers, from film-makers and radio pundits, from teachers and from students, and probably from me and from you.
I'm probably going to be attacked as simultaneously insensitive and soft on crime for saying this, but there is also one huge elephant in the room that needs to be addressed before our urban education system (whether public, charter, voucher or religious) can become meaningful. All of our society has to work out how to keep poor (and, yes, especially black) men from ending up in jail at the levels they do so they can be fathers and teachers instead of a burden on the system. And even more difficult: jobs need to be created and maintained so that most families can comfortably live on one income so one of the parents can stay home (and in this day and age that does not preclude a working woman and a stay at home father.) The problem is, I have absolutely no clue what the answer is to these two problems. It seems that everyone with a strong voice knows how to fix them, but opposite solutions are being shouted: legalize drugs, strengthen drug enforcement laws. Teach safe sex, teach religious values (abstinence). Increase social safety nets, get rid of welfare. Drug children up before class, spank them when they act up. Zero tolerance, support the second amendment.
I guess I got a bit worked up over that. Our education system isn't yet a total failure. It's probably in the mediocre range, and it is still possible for a kid from the hood to become the next Neil deGrasse Tyson. But this is the United States... and we should be able to do much better than that. Uhh, didn't mean that as an insult; I meant our public school system should allow most if not virtually every student to flourish as he did.
That made my day. I work in a highly regulated industry, and buying anything with the right standards conformance paperwork costs many times the standard cost, even when we get exactly the same item that is sold to ordinary consumers for the fraction of the price. You want a small batch with special paperwork from a large supplier? Be prepared to pay a ridiculous amount of money. A normal certificate of conformity usually lists only the absolutely minimal amount of safety claims, both to reduce liability and to force those who need more to pay up for it. Since I suspect science kit makers are not exactly thriving these days, this is the kind of thing that would put them out of business. It would probably be cheaper for them to set up a testing and validation framework for off-the-shelf products, but depending on the standards they have to conform to, they may not be allowed to go that route.
Yeah, just set a whole load of them on the floor and the zombies'll just sit there trying to tweet about how much the prices in the local Starbucks have risen...
'Don't worry' said the trees when they saw the axe coming, 'The handle is one of us.'
Your home in my neighborhood would have an annual tax bill more than $20k (probably closer to $30,000).
In other neighborhoods, it would be closer to what you are paying now. That's what I meant about it being difficult to compare. Averages are easy but specifics are trickier.
Robert Bruce Thompson write science books for home study. He is currently working on a set of science kits to accompany them. You can find more information at Make: Science Room.
Enjoy life! This is not a dress rehearsal.
not a toy intended for kids older than the "lets eat random crap" stage.
You might be surprised by the amount of crap an 8 year old puts in es nose.
--
JimFive
Please stop using the word theory when you mean hypothesis.
Get serious. You really believe that some cable out there wants to keep rulers out of science kits to keep "the common man down?"
That would be the action of a dumb person, not a smart one.
It will show you the molecule. If you can't see how it will smell, then maybe you shouldn't be using a lab~
also, I prefer to read sheet music, that way I can see how something is supposed to be played, without the pesky flaws introduced by musician~
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on