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House Democrats Shelve Net Neutrality Proposal

crimeandpunishment writes "A compromise on net neutrality appears to be as likely as Google and China becoming BFFs. House Democrats have pulled the plug on efforts to work out a compromise among phone, cable, and Internet companies. House Commerce Committee Chairman Henry Waxman, who shelved the proposal late on Wednesday in the face of Republican opposition, said, 'If Congress can't act, the FCC must,' and called this development 'a loss for consumers.' Internet companies and public interest groups say the new regulations are needed to keep phone and cable companies from playing favorites with traffic, while those companies insist they need flexibility so high-bandwidth applications don't slow down their systems." The net neutrality debate seems to have fallen victim to the extreme polarization evident in the larger political culture.

221 comments

  1. My first "bump" where this law could help by cybrthng · · Score: 5, Informative

    As some of you know Xbox Live is getting a cool update called ESPN3. The concept of the app & system is pretty amazing, technology has come a long way to make it so. What you probably didn't know is that to get the deal, Microsoft had to get the ISP's to agree to license the content for Internet Users in order to broadcast ESPN3 over the internet. Not all ISP's bought the license, so not everyone will have ESPN3 - even if you're a Xbox live subscriber.

    This is an area where net neutrality should shine. It should protect Microsoft and allow them to license content to distribute and it should protect consumers to not be held hostage to a carrier paying for content as a middleman. I hope this EPSN3 thing can light the fire under the community so they understand how net neutrality can impact them. I know this isn't the "typical case of concern" in regards to p2p or throttling or priority of services, but this just goes to show that Internet Traffic is already beeing bought and sold not just as a commodity itself but something that people have now had to license in order to push specific traffic over that commodity on as a carrier - not just a distributor.

    With that said, the app is freaking amazing and i don't even like much sports. The fact you can watch scores, hedge on who will win and i'm sititng in my living room watching HD games on demand or live is pretty awesome. I admire comcast for building out the network to support stuff and maybe, that is what the license agreed to but damn, these backroom deals are dissapointing for the consumer and only pollute the fairness & equality of having broadband now into having to chose a carrior that has the right license deals, not just the best performance.

    1. Re:My first "bump" where this law could help by rotide · · Score: 5, Insightful

      As far as I understand it, this ESPN3 issue isn't a choice of MS nor ISPs. This is a choice of Disney/ESPN themselves charging for access to their services. Basically, providers have to pay ESPN for access. If they don't pay ESPN, no ESPN3. This has nothing to do with ISP's deciding what to and not to allow you to see.

    2. Re:My first "bump" where this law could help by Moryath · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Watch it when you mention "backroom deals." Those things are what got us the 1976 copyright extension act, 1998 Mickey Mouse/Sonny Bono Copyright Extension Act, DMCA, DMCA2, ACTA (thankfully not ratified yet but just watch them slip it through in the dead of night).

      We can just bet that the real reason this is being "delayed" is that the Senate right now is busy passing the "Combating Online Infringement and Counterfeits Act" (aka the "Fuck Consumers In The Ass Act") under a "fast-track" by the corrupt party in power (as opposed to the corrupt party OUT of power).

      They want to have the authority to shut down any website they see fit by accusing it of "piracy." Not only that, they want the ability to order US ISP's to "black out" access to overseas websites they accuse of "piracy."

      How long till this starts to be a tool for political repression? Seems the Democrats have taken a page from their funding backers over in China. Maybe in a few years rather than needing Tor to get news out to people inside China, we'll be needing it just to survive the Great Firewall of America...

    3. Re:My first "bump" where this law could help by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      With that said, the app is freaking amazing and i don't even like much sports. The fact you can watch scores, hedge on who will win and i'm sititng in my living room watching HD games on demand or live is pretty awesome.

      I too have an XBox and also have XBox Live. Were these new features released last night or something? Because as of right now it's only in testing ... so if you're experiencing this right now while "sititng" in your living room, I would like to know how this is possible.

      Otherwise you sound like little more than a dumbshit fanboi trying to sell this to everyone.

      The fact you can watch scores, hedge on who will win

      So it's like ESPN3.com with avatars? "Hedge on who will win" that's funny.

    4. Re:My first "bump" where this law could help by Moryath · · Score: 2, Informative

      Because as of right now it's only in testing ... so if you're experiencing this right now while "sititng" in your living room, I would like to know how this is possible.

      Because MS is already sending invitations to selected people to beta-test the new Xbox Live and Kinect setups?

    5. Re:My first "bump" where this law could help by j0nb0y · · Score: 5, Informative

      There's a separate fee for ESPN3 (previously known as ESPN360). Almost every provider provides ESPN on basic access, so that's not the issue. The issue is that ESPN is charging a PER SUBSCRIBER FEE for a WEBSITE to ISPs. This means that if your provider has ESPN3, you are paying for it, whether you want it or not. ESPN wants to turn the Internet into cable TV. That is the issue.

      --
      If you had super powers, would you use them for good, or for awesome?
    6. Re:My first "bump" where this law could help by cybrthng · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The deal as it is with Xbox live ESPN3 is entirely with your ISP licensing the content, no choice for consumer. If it was a consumer option I would have opted out of paying for it in liue of the price hikes.

    7. Re:My first "bump" where this law could help by j0nb0y · · Score: 5, Informative

      I'll also note that this per subscriber fee is significantly higher for small ISPs. By about a thousand percent... as a result, small ISPs do not carry the service. If you *want* ESPN3, you have to switch to a big carrier, because you cannot buy an individual subscription to the site.

      --
      If you had super powers, would you use them for good, or for awesome?
    8. Re:My first "bump" where this law could help by rotide · · Score: 1, Informative

      Still don't think that's a net neutrality issue. That's just ESPN locking their site/services to those _providers_ willing to pay them. If this was an issue like MLB.tv where end users have to pay, it would be basically the same deal. The way I see it, this is just a different way for Disney/ESPN to bill. It's a crappy setup, but it's not a net neutrality issue.

    9. Re:My first "bump" where this law could help by cybrthng · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I think it falls into the gray area of net neutrality because it takes away the choices consumers should have and makes them superficial to actually being on the internet. So broadband isn't broadband if your carrier is responsible for chosing what services you can use on it. I mostly made my statement to get people to think about these "outside of the box" issues.

    10. Re:My first "bump" where this law could help by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wow, and I just thought they were assholes for having video (with sound) of whatever-the-fuck automatically play when you visit their website. This is a whole new level of asshole.

    11. Re:My first "bump" where this law could help by nicolas.kassis · · Score: 1

      But they aren't choosing, Disney/ESPN is. Why should the ISP make you pay for something you might not even want. ESPN3 is very cool but my mom won't ever watch it. I'd pay money to get the service, but ESPN won't let me. Disney are being douchebags, the ISP are just not letting them fuck you over. I'm in support of the ISP in this case. If ESPN had their way, the phone company would have to pay to let you call ESPNs tech support. I'll say it again, if ESPN allowed me to pay to get the service I would.

    12. Re:My first "bump" where this law could help by nicolas.kassis · · Score: 1

      Yup, I'm with you on that. I like ESPN3 but I'm totally ok with my ISP telling them to fuck off.

    13. Re:My first "bump" where this law could help by rotide · · Score: 1

      Exactly how I see it. This is entirely on ESPN. They are simply billing the end user in such a way that removes the end user from the decision making process. Either the ISP antes up on behalf of the end user (and your monthly bill will probably reflect that), and you get the service, or they don't and you're S.O.L.

      This is clearly not a net neutrality issue. The ISP isn't limiting or throttling you. The ISP isn't really deciding if you can or can't have the ESPN3 service. ESPN3 is deciding who can and can not access their services through a paywall that the ISP will be on the hook for if they decide to carry it.

      Now, I can see this _enticing_ a net neutrality issue in the future however.

      $ISP antes up and pays for ESPN3 access but explicitly blocks it to all users. Now $ISP charges its customers, who want the service, an extra $10 a month to have ESPN3 service _unblocked_. Now the ISP is choosing what to send to you by putting up ACL's, etc. That is a net neutrality issue.

      P.S., damn there is a mod who doesn't like me.

    14. Re:My first "bump" where this law could help by commodore64_love · · Score: 2, Insightful

      >>>That's just ESPN locking their site/services to those _providers_ willing to pay them

      It's an issue due to the lack of internet choice. If my provider (Comcast for example) decides to pay ESPN360 plus DisneyConnection plus FXextra plus all those other "paywall" sites, then that means my internet cost will gradually climb higher, just as Comcast TV gradually climbed from $25 to $65 when CATV channels increased their rates from ~25 to ~75 cents per home.

      Unfortunately I have no other choice. I either pay the monopoly, or I get no internet.

      NOW if the republicans would get off their ass, and revoke Comcast's exclusive license, I'd be able to choose somebody else like Cox, or Cablevision, or Time-Warner, or whoever. But the republicans don't seem to understand that the market is a monopoly. They can't get their head around the idea, and keep falsely calling it a "free market" when it isn't.

      Note I don't think the Democrats have the right idea either.
      They too want to allow Comcast to keep its monopoly. :-|

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    15. Re:My first "bump" where this law could help by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      I'm confused as to how net neutrality would protect against consumers being held hostage to a carrier paying for content. Are you saying that net neutrality would make it illegal for ESPN to charge ISPs for allowing the ISPs subscribers to access one of their websites? If your ISP does not pay ESPN a PER SUBSCRIBER fee, ESPN does not allow any of that ISPs subscribers to access ESPN3. That means that I am paying for other people to access ESPN3.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    16. Re:My first "bump" where this law could help by TheSync · · Score: 1

      It should protect Microsoft and allow them to license content to distribute and it should protect consumers to not be held hostage to a carrier paying for content as a middleman.

      If ESPN can't charge ISPs to get access to ESPN3, I doubt there would be an ESPN3 as there would be no cash flow, so that "amazing, cool" think you are talking about would be destroyed by your government action. Thanks!

    17. Re:My first "bump" where this law could help by pnutjam · · Score: 1

      I would love to use an ISP who is not paying the ESPN/Disney stooges.

  2. Run away! Run away! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The party of brave, brave Sir Robin!

    Can't even stay in town to address looming massive tax increases for everyone.

  3. Bandwidth hogs should pay more.... by scharkalvin · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    "Phone and cable companies insist they need flexibility so high-bandwidth applications don't slow down their systems."
    Fine. Let them charge the content producers by bandwidth. The wider bandwidth your content needs, the more you will pay. Low bandwidth content (most web pages actually) would get a free ride, things like Hulu and Youtube would probaby have to open their wallets to help support the inferstructure. Just so long as nobody gets priority over anybody else. First come first serve, but if you take more than average you pay for it.

    1. Re:Bandwidth hogs should pay more.... by Suki+I · · Score: 3, Informative

      "Phone and cable companies insist they need flexibility so high-bandwidth applications don't slow down their systems." Fine. Let them charge the content producers by bandwidth. The wider bandwidth your content needs, the more you will pay. Low bandwidth content (most web pages actually) would get a free ride, things like Hulu and Youtube would probaby have to open their wallets to help support the inferstructure. Just so long as nobody gets priority over anybody else. First come first serve, but if you take more than average you pay for it.

      As an ATT&T wireless user who has exceeded her monthly 5Gb limit once or twice, I can tell you for a fact, we "hogs" do pay more for additional usage. Too bad we don't get "rollover" bits.

    2. Re:Bandwidth hogs should pay more.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As an ATT&T wireless user...

      American Telephone, Telegraph & Teleportation? Sweet! Let me be the first to welcome you to the 21st century, Future Man!

    3. Re:Bandwidth hogs should pay more.... by elewton · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Hulu and Youtube pay for their own bandwidth and the ISP sells bandwidth to its customers.

      There's no justification to charge a company that is providing the value you sell. If customers want a higher percentage of your network traffic, charge them for it.

    4. Re:Bandwidth hogs should pay more.... by scharkalvin · · Score: 1

      Ah but the point is that you didn't PUT the content on the net did you, you just consumed it. People like you shouldn't have to pay, and THAT'S what the FCC needs to regulate.

    5. Re:Bandwidth hogs should pay more.... by mcgrew · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Fine. Let them charge the content producers by bandwidth.

      You must own an ISP, because that idea is bullocks. I pay my ISP to pipe content from my provider to my computer. If the content provider is paying, why should I?

      If your system doesn't have the bandwidth to serve your customers, you need to invest in infrastructure. If you can't get a return on your investment you need to get the hell out of the business.

      The phrase "taking you coming and going" springs to mind. This kind of nonsense really pissses me off. IMO the "troll" mod should have been "flamebait", but at least it's a downmod.

    6. Re:Bandwidth hogs should pay more.... by scharkalvin · · Score: 2, Interesting

      That's not what they want to do. They want money from Hulu and Youtube to give THEIR packets 'special treatment'. I don't think it's fair to charge the end user who receives the content as the user didn't make any money from the deliver. Hulu MAKES money from the content (via the commericals or their proposed pay for view system).

    7. Re:Bandwidth hogs should pay more.... by Suki+I · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Ah but the point is that you didn't PUT the content on the net did you, you just consumed it. People like you shouldn't have to pay, and THAT'S what the FCC needs to regulate.

      The point is, I used the bandwidth.

    8. Re:Bandwidth hogs should pay more.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Phone and cable companies insist they need flexibility so high-bandwidth applications don't slow down their systems."
      Fine. Let them charge the content producers by bandwidth. ...

      What the hell do you think they WANT to do?

      But the content providers want to be the ones who get that money.

      And since Google is one of those content providers and is also the universe's love child, sheeple have jumped on the "net neutrality" bandwagon.

      Here's a clue: Google's on the same "we must regulate the interwebz" side as the MAFIAA.

    9. Re:Bandwidth hogs should pay more.... by ElectricTurtle · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Wait... so you're saying that people who produce and provide need to penalized? That sounds awfully familiar...

      --
      I support the Slashcott and will not be reading or commenting from 2/10/14 to 2/17/14. Beta is steaming pile of dog shit
    10. Re:Bandwidth hogs should pay more.... by DrgnDancer · · Score: 4, Informative

      Actually I don't see any problem with charging consumers more per se. If I use twice the bandwidth that my neighbor does, then there's some logic that I pay twice as much. What's objectionable isn't that they charge more for using more bandwidth, but that they charge more for applications that they assume will use more bandwidth. Example:

      I have an Internet connection. I use it for e-mail and web browsing (low bandwidth activities) on a moderate scale, but a few times a month I torrent something (Blizzard uses torrents for it's game updates, Linux distros, etc). While I occasionally use this "high bandwidth application" my overall usage is rather low (say 5-7 GB a month).

      My neighbor has the same Internet connection I do. He uses only "low bandwidth applications", but he uses them *constantly*. Say he's a teenager and it's summer vacation. He's *always* doing something on the 'Net. He downloads multiple small files (often at the same time), but does so over low bandwidth (theoretically) protocols like http and ftp. In the end he uses way more bandwidth in a given month than me. 25-30 GB.

      Under the types of rules that Internet companies want to see, I would be potentially charged more than my neighbor. Because I use a "high bandwidth service" (despite that I don't use it much and it doesn't actually add up to that much bandwidth), and he doesn't (despite that he actually uses far more bandwidth because of his sheer volume of activity).

      A big part of the problem here is that Americans have gotten used to "unlimited Internet". No ISP wants to be the first to say "you pay by the GB", because they know that they'll get their lunches eaten by all the "unlimited" services. So rather than limit the actual bandwidth people are allowed to use (or charging a metered rate), they attempt to offer "unlimited" service while at the same time demonizing certain protocols and applications and trying to charge more for those. This allows them to claim that you can use the network as much as you want, while at the same time curtailing the use of protocols that are most likely to stress the network.

      Net Neutrality isn't about you getting free Internetz. It's about companies being forced to sell unrestricted access to the network (on the protocol and application level). They can sell packages based on bandwidth or based on total usage (or both), but not based on protocols or who you're trying to connect to. They can charge you more for more Mbs. They can charge you more because you use more total GB a month. They can't charge you more because you want to use Bittorrent or access a competitor's website.

      --
      I don't need a million points of light, just two points of multi-mode fiber and a 10 Gig-E router.
    11. Re:Bandwidth hogs should pay more.... by DrgnDancer · · Score: 1

      Because *you* are using bandwidth. If *you* use more bandwidth than the guy next to you, it's reasonable to think that *you* pay more. Not because you used the wrong protocol, no. Not because you went to Youtube, when your ISP has a deal with Hulu, no. But because you used more resources than your neighbor, sure. Net Neutrality has nothing to do with whether you're charged for speed, total bandwidth used, or both. It's about preventing you from being charged extra to use certain protocols or access certain destinations.

      --
      I don't need a million points of light, just two points of multi-mode fiber and a 10 Gig-E router.
    12. Re:Bandwidth hogs should pay more.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The problem with paying by the byte is you'll be charges for incoming packets, regardless of whether they have anything to do with what you're doing. You may not even have any active network connections. People/bots can DoS/flood you're IP address for many reasons. All those packets go on your bill. ISPs already have tiered options, and they not just tied to bandwidth.

    13. Re:Bandwidth hogs should pay more.... by BlueStrat · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Because *you* are using bandwidth. If *you* use more bandwidth than the guy next to you, it's reasonable to think that *you* pay more. Not because you used the wrong protocol, no. Not because you went to Youtube, when your ISP has a deal with Hulu, no. But because you used more resources than your neighbor, sure. Net Neutrality has nothing to do with whether you're charged for speed, total bandwidth used, or both. It's about preventing you from being charged extra to use certain protocols or access certain destinations

      And you know what? Very few people have a problem with that. A bill to accomplish ONLY that would be what, maybe 10-20 pages at most? Why does it take X*thousand pages?

      The problem, dear poster, is that the government insists on passing another HUGE freaking piece of government-expanding legislation that does a whole metric crap-ton of things that have NOTHING whatsoever to do with the nuts-and-bolts of "net neutrality" as discussed here. Most of which gives the government even more control over the intertubes and YOU, thus removing freedom, while causing costs to skyrocket for ISPs and consumers. The "net neutrality" part of the legislation is but a tiny fraction, and would probably be hard to even find if it is even still present at all by the time it's passed.

      Strat

      --
      Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
    14. Re:Bandwidth hogs should pay more.... by mldi · · Score: 1

      You already do pay more for faster connections. Slower connections have an inherited cap. If they can't handle the bandwidth load then they shouldn't sell it at those speeds, either that or they should upgrade their infrastructure.

      --
      If you aren't suspicious of your government's actions, you aren't doing your job as a responsible citizen.
    15. Re:Bandwidth hogs should pay more.... by mcgrew · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Because *you* are using bandwidth. If *you* use more bandwidth than the guy next to you, it's reasonable to think that *you* pay more.

      But that's not what network neutrality is about. I would think anyone at /. would understand that. It's not about charging all their customers the same, it's about KICKBACKS. It's about MS paying your ISP to give you faster search results than Google (or vice versa).

      Net neutrality essentially would outlaw kickbacks. Kickbacks are generally illegal in any other endeavor.

    16. Re:Bandwidth hogs should pay more.... by DrgnDancer · · Score: 1

      Which is exactly what I said... I was responding to a guy that seemed to think it was about charging everyone equally, and pointing out that he was wrong. In fact, two more sentences on in my post you quoted was:

      "Not because you went to Youtube, when your ISP has a deal with Hulu, no. But because you used more resources than your neighbor, sure. Net Neutrality has nothing to do with whether you're charged for speed, total bandwidth used, or both. It's about preventing you from being charged extra to use certain protocols or access certain destinations."

      I can see not reading the whole thing if it was a wall of text, but my post was a short five sentence paragraph.

      --
      I don't need a million points of light, just two points of multi-mode fiber and a 10 Gig-E router.
    17. Re:Bandwidth hogs should pay more.... by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      That's not what they want to do. They want money from Hulu and Youtube to give THEIR packets 'special treatment'.

      "Special treatment" is really doublespeak for "treat same as today, while we proceed to fuck everyone who doesn't pay". So neither Hulu nor YouTube actually get anything from the deal - it's pure racketeering.

  4. I'll Say It Again ... by smpoole7 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It would really, really help if we'd explain to my conservative friends just what "Net Neutrality" is. They are convinced that it's some form of Fairness Doctrine for the Web that will limit content.

    (The fact that such a "fairness doctrine" might limit Mother Jones and Salon just as much as it does FrontPageMag and World Net Daily, depending on the party in power, doesn't seem to occur to them, either.)

    I try to explain to them that it simply means that, if I visit YouTube, I don't want my ISP to limit their bandwidth because Microsoft (or someone else) has paid a premium for priority for *their* bandwidth.

    We geeks have several flaws, and one of them is our love of catchphrases and acronyms. We just *assume* that everyone knows what "free software" and "net neutrality" mean. But when you start dealing with the Body Politick At Large(tm), that's not necessarily so. A few minutes to carefully explain just what we're actually talking about will go a long way ...

    --
    Cogito, igitur comedam pizza.
    1. Re:I'll Say It Again ... by Moryath · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Combine this with the COICA act the Demofucks are pushing on "fast track" through the Senate right now, though, and you maybe see why the Rethuglicans (and anyone without major brain damage or MafiAA membership) are afraid?

      THAT bill, which is coming up for a wee-hours vote while everyone is being distracted by other issues (thanks for "fast-tracking", Corrupt Shitwad Leahy!), is nothing but a censorship package, complete with the ability to shut down websites without actual findings of fact or evidence of a crime and the ability to order US ISP's to "black out" websites overseas that whoever's in charge from the government finds "objectionable."

      Great Firewall of America, here we come... bought and paid for by the Chinese money laundered to the Democrats in the past couple decades, and ready soon to "black out" the same sites the Chinese already black out.

    2. Re:I'll Say It Again ... by roman_mir · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I cannot support this bill, just like I can never support anything government does ever for any reason.

      I want gov't out of economy completely, only dealing with 2 things really: Justice system, minimum military needed to protect liberties.

      That's it.

      Everything else is a function of the market. Gov't creates monopolies that end up doing whatever they wish and pay gov't to help them stay monopolies. The correct fix for this 'Net Neutrality' issue is an ISP (or a few) that would offer services without any such prioritization imposed by the ISP no matter who paid it, which of-course may come at an extra cost.

      This is no different actually from your cable company charging you for your connection and programming (and possibly rent of equipment) while still pushing ads onto your screen.

    3. Re:I'll Say It Again ... by dpilot · · Score: 5, Interesting

      While conservatives may dislike "Net Neutrality" for the reasons you state, I believe they have another reason - an undying faith in "the free market and the ability of players in the free market to come to an optimal solution for all." In other words, "Free market players need to have the maximum flexibility to arrive at market solutions which both maximize profits and deliver optimal solutions." Note that I keep using quotation marks in the prior sentence, and in this case it's not a misuse of "quotation marks," rather it's expressing a position that sounds really neat, but doesn't work that well in practice.

      First off, the "free market" really isn't so free, it's loaded with large players. There have been studies indicating that when 4 or 5 major players have captured something like 80% of the market, it no longer acts like a "free market." According to those studies, even without overt collusion, a market dominated by a few large players starts to act as if there is price-fixing and market restriction happing, just by normal corporate behavior.

      Second, the "free market" never developed anything like the internet, and they had over a decade of failure at it. CompuServe, Prodigy, AOL, The Source, etc are all ashes of the market failure. The only reason AOL has anything like survived is because of the proprietary players it best embraced the internet. The normal corporate behavior these days is to "own the pie" rather than work with others to create a much bigger pie. Oddly enough, they continue to do that even when the cooperative pie is so much bigger that their share is bigger than their full ownership of a private pie.

      Finally, I don't think conservatives understand that sometimes we do better if our actions are limited. They have complete distrust of the limiting agency - ie, the government, and do understand that sometimes their own decisions can be bad, but fail to see that sometimes, the "free market" will fail to correct them, and they fail to appreciate the damage done, while waiting for the marketplace to correct things.

      --
      The living have better things to do than to continue hating the dead.
    4. Re:I'll Say It Again ... by pmontra · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Show your friends this picture http://dvice.com/assets_c/2009/10/net-neutrality-thumb-550xauto-27419.jpg This is what Net Neutrality protects them from.

    5. Re:I'll Say It Again ... by elrous0 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      They prefer to let the free market decide. You know, like it did with the big banks.

      --
      SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    6. Re:I'll Say It Again ... by Nimey · · Score: 1

      It's an uphill battle - it'll be really hard to out-shout Faux News and company, and they've got the ear of conservatives /already/.

      --
      Hail Eris, full of mischief...

      E pluribus sanguinem
    7. Re:I'll Say It Again ... by AnonymousClown · · Score: 5, Funny

      ...I don't want my ISP to limit their bandwidth because Microsoft (or someone else) has paid a premium for priority for *their* bandwidth.

      You think that's a better explanation to a conservative?

      Dude. This is how you put it:

      Net Neutrality allows for FREEDOM and it allows for your non-profit CHRISTIAN website to have as much bandwidth as those atheist-secular ones. It allows for your GOD FEARING content to have the same bandwidth as those abortion promoting god-less family planning websites! It will also allow you to track what the GOVERNMENT is doing because voting against NET NEUTRALITY is falling right into the government's hands.

      Hit the streets now! It's in the CONSTITUTION and the Founding Fathers said that we have the right to equal access! It's true! It's in the exact same part where it says we're a CHRISTIAN Nation!

      God Bless America!

      That'll get Net Newtrality[sic]!!

      --
      RIP America

      July 4, 1776 - September 11, 2001

    8. Re:I'll Say It Again ... by mpatton · · Score: 1

      That would be a great society for billionaires and I'm sure everyone else will enjoy being corporate cattle.

    9. Re:I'll Say It Again ... by roman_mir · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You have mixed it up a bit, it's a great society for billionaires and everybody who enjoys being corporate cattle right now.

      Unless you've been in hibernation for the past 100 years, the gov't has increasingly been on the path of taking away your freedoms and liberties, while providing them to the corporations and now they are openly bailing out the monopolies they have created. Unless you've been asleep for the past 100 years, you should have noticed the corporate welfare that turned the people into that cattle.

      People used to be called pioneers, now they are just consumers.

    10. Re:I'll Say It Again ... by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      We geeks have several flaws, and one of them is our love of catchphrases and acronyms. We just *assume* that everyone knows what "free software" and "net neutrality" mean. But when you start dealing with the Body Politick At Large(tm), that's not necessarily so. A few minutes to carefully explain just what we're actually talking about will go a long way ...

      Alas, these days not everyone at slashdot is a nerd. Witness the many comments we often get in threads about jailbrealing like "use it for what it was designed for" and "but it wasn't MEANT to be hacked". So just because someone here makes a comment, don't assume he or she has a three digit IQ or even knows that there is an alternatove to Microsoft.

    11. Re:I'll Say It Again ... by TheFlamingoKing · · Score: 2, Informative

      Any person that believes banking is a "free market" has no understanding of the concept of fractional reserve banking.

      Fractional reserve banking increases the money supply through lending, literally creating money from thin air. In order to maintain the money supply and keep inflation from spiraling out of control, the Central Bank must both manipulate the currency through the prime rate, and regulate the banks through reserve requirements. So, core to the concept of banking under fractional reserve is the necessity of the government to regulate banks in order to keep the money supply safe.

      This doesn't even include the volumes of laws on what types of products banks can sell, or who they can sell them to. It doesn't include the thousands of pages of regulations on their employees and their facilities. It doesn't count all the tax regulations they must abide by.

      It doesn't take more than a few minutes of research to find out that the "free market" line is not an argument, but some sort of uneducated attack that tries to dismiss the problem as easily as possible - just blame some mythical "free market" that doesn't exist, and move on rather than consider the reality of things.

    12. Re:I'll Say It Again ... by radarsat1 · · Score: 3, Informative

      I would argue that even from the most hard-right libertarian point of view, the only job of the government is to ensure that markets stay free. This includes preventing the purchase of monopolies, so that small businesses have a chance to provide equal or better service than the big players. Net neutrality should be in the interests of anyone who believes in the free market.

      The idea that the right has gotten into its head that government regulation should stay out of the market is wrong, not because regulation is some kind of socialist mindset, but because in the hard-right view of things, the only role of the government is to play "cop", to catch cheaters and make sure the market always runs smoothly and is an even playing field for all.

    13. Re:I'll Say It Again ... by MBGMorden · · Score: 4, Interesting

      the Demofucks are pushing on "fast track" through the Senate right now, though, and you maybe see why the Rethuglicans

      You know, over time I've noticed an inverse relationship between the intelligence of a poster and their likelihood to turn names into cutesy little attacks.

      Just say the names. 'Democrats'. 'Republicans'. See? That wasn't hard. If your argument is presented decently we'll get the jist of who you do and don't like without the 3rd grade humor.

      --
      "People who think they know everything are very annoying to those of us who do."-Mark Twain
    14. Re:I'll Say It Again ... by Swanktastic · · Score: 1, Funny

      Oh please... That is exactly what I'd expect to hear from a Poopocrat.

    15. Re:I'll Say It Again ... by maxwell+demon · · Score: 1

      You forgot:

      You don't want those PORN providers to get more bandwidth only because they get big money from those IMMORAL PORN WATCHERS and therefore can afford more bandwidth, while your poor little CHRISTIAN site hardly gets enough bandwidth to be shown at all. THINK OF THE CHILDREN!

      Oh, and there should be something about TERRORISTS as well.

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
    16. Re:I'll Say It Again ... by KiloByte · · Score: 1

      Sorry, but neither of these two parties deserves nicer name.

      --
      The creatures outside looked from Alt-Right to Antifa; but already it was impossible to say which was which.
    17. Re:I'll Say It Again ... by smegmatic · · Score: 1

      That's a bit of an exaggeration. Net neutrality doesn't protect them from that because net neutrality doesn't currently exist. If net neutrality really was the only thing that prevented that situation from arising, we'd already have those tiered plans now.

    18. Re:I'll Say It Again ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Amen and Halleluiah!

      lol

    19. Re:I'll Say It Again ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The way to get the conservatives on board is to tell them that without net neutrality their ISP can block the Fox news site.

    20. Re:I'll Say It Again ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Justice system, minimum military needed to protect liberties.

      Let's say you're a senator or prospective senator. If government does that, how can it divert public money or other public resources to specific hand-chosen private entities, or otherwise do special favors at the public's expense? And if you can't make government do that, then why should any industries fund your election campaign? If it no one funds your election campaign, what makes you think you'll get any votes?

      What's funny is if you turn your list of goals around, to say, some kind of progressive big-but-theoretically-benevolent government, very similar problems come up (though to less of a degree, since the more complexity there is, the more corruption is possible).

      This is why it is almost pointless for people to be talking about either rightist or leftist agendas in politics today. It's not that the issues aren't important, it's that nobody with any sort of political ideals (regardless of where they are on the anarchy-to-communism spectrum, and that includes mainstream moderates too) has any chance of getting what they want. Ideals are currently off the table.

      Election reform needs to become top priority. So I urge you to add one additional role for government, to your otherwise libertarian list: have the government, forcefully and by nearly any means necessary, fight corruption within itself. You've got criminals and hostile foreign powers on your list of threats we want government to protect us from, so please just add one more: government itself. And when you look at it that way, it's really not all that radical and very much within the spirit of the constitution, not just in the mechanics of the limitations of the government, but even the expressive wording of parts of the Bill of Rights itself. This is libertarian-compatible.

      You may think that's as impossible as an insane brain surgeon operating on himself (and damn you, maybe you're right) but if it can't be done, then there's hardly any point in having government at all. That means you don't get your courts or national defense either.

    21. Re:I'll Say It Again ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This should be modded +1000 Insightful. I've watched (for over a decade) as the level of political discourse in the country has fallen to pathetic gimmicks like this. I'm aware of the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis of language shaping culture, and I'm guessing that people are extending it to try and shape people's beliefs about politics with these "clever" rebrandings. but willingly trying to brainwash YOURSELF and others by using loaded terminology is just sad and a sign of intellectual bankruptcy. I challenge EVERYONE at /. to try to be better than this. As my parent points out, if you have a compelling argument, you have no need of using childish jabs. All it does is make it seem as if you're a reactionary twit without any real meaningful convictions.

    22. Re:I'll Say It Again ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Personally, I think "Derpocrats" has a much better ring to it. Then maybe we could do "Herpicans" or "Republiherps".

    23. Re:I'll Say It Again ... by gangien · · Score: 1

      Great point, because there wasn't a shit ton of regulations and other protections in place.

      Oh wait..

    24. Re:I'll Say It Again ... by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      1. I am not interested in any career politicians staying in office because they deal with any corporations/unions/industries or even promising easier life to individuals.
      2. The list of gov't functions is clearly defined: Military + Justice system. The reasons behind this functionality are: Constitution and protection of individual Liberties and Freedoms. Nothing else.

      3. Corruption in government wouldn't even be an issue if government was unable to subvert the economy to its means.

      IRS, Fed must be abolished, FDIC, Freddie/Fannie etc, must be dismantled. Only gov't income must come from sales taxes and this provides a feedback loop to control size of gov't, it's spending. No gov't activity must be allowed that would lead to any private increase of power for any organization within economy.

      Gov't corruption is related to gov't ability to manipulate currency, interest rates, provide subsidies, set taxes and do all kinds of spending and all of this without any feedback that would stop the gov't from doing what it's doing.

      What is needed is a more strict definition of what is allowed and not allowed to the Fed, and nothing that deals with commerce must be allowed. In the links I already talked about adding a Constitutional amendment that would prohibit Congress from interfering with the markets in any way.

      --

      More interesting question then becomes who would want to work in the gov't, if it was clear that the feedback mechanism would not guarantee life long employment and would not provide ability to grow one's staff and power indefinitely. That's the challenge.

    25. Re:I'll Say It Again ... by gangien · · Score: 1

      Well you'd be wrong. The hard libertarian point of view is simple, that people should be free to do what they want (form groups/companies/organizations), so long as they don't force anyone else to do anything. The government's job is therefore not to determine whether a market is free enough, because by definition it is, since no one can force anyone else to do anything.

      To me it's rather funny, how well the free market has worked, and yet everyone fears it so heavily. But don't worry, you and most of /. will get your way, and in the future we'll miss out on the next youtube/facebook/wikipedia, because there will be so much red tape in place, it will crush innovation. Some will still get through of course. And of course, the big companies will push regulation (you know, the ones you're now so worried about? yeah they'll eventually get more power and control of the market because of crap like this.)

      I don't know why freedom is such a hard concept to grasp.

    26. Re:I'll Say It Again ... by TheoMurpse · · Score: 1

      How do you feel about roads and the fire department?

    27. Re:I'll Say It Again ... by TheoMurpse · · Score: 1

      Of course, that immediately succeeded years of human cattle that was the laissez-faire Gilded Age.

    28. Re:I'll Say It Again ... by geekoid · · Score: 1

      The constitution states that the government will, in fact, be involved with the economy.

      All evidence shows you are wrong. Please study up.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    29. Re:I'll Say It Again ... by geekoid · · Score: 1

      And it happened bacause of the regulation they removed. from about 2000, to 2008 the federal policy towards bank so to go to a more libertarian model. The process of doing so allowed people who control both ends to make money from failure.

      I've seen unregulated banks in other countries. It's a fucking mess.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    30. Re:I'll Say It Again ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If only the government stopped taking away our rights and liberties 100 years ago, so we could still be free to have whites-only drinking fountains and businesses and be free from the tyranny of the female voter.

    31. Re:I'll Say It Again ... by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      I feel good about them when they are done privately or at the very least locally even if publicly, but I feel terrible about them if they are done federally.

    32. Re:I'll Say It Again ... by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      Are you trying to teach me about the Article 1 section 8 of Constitution talking about 'welfare' and regulating interstate commerce? So why do you need to be derisive?

      I believe it is the imperfection of the Constitution that needs to be fixed. People are evolving in all aspects, still evolving physically, mentally, socially. There is still time and it will happen, it's not like US will last much longer in its current form. Very soon its very currency will be destroyed and something will have to be changed. Of-course I am not certain that it will in fact be the US that will go the correct route, but some other places are starting to show signs of progress moving in the right direction (ironically though, since USA used to be an example of such development).

    33. Re:I'll Say It Again ... by gangien · · Score: 1

      the federal reserve pumped in gobs of money trying to reinflate the dot com bubble and congress put pressure on banks to give out more housing loans. If that doesn't sound like a bubble waiting to happen..

    34. Re:I'll Say It Again ... by zeroshade · · Score: 1

      There is no incentive for an ISP to do that though. They can make more money by doing it this way and if all the ISPs band together to do this, they all make money. No government in the economy at all? Monopolies would form and abuse the market. Cartels would form and abuse the market. "Free Market" with no regulations is by no means "Free". Not every industry has competition to force it to follow the market.

    35. Re:I'll Say It Again ... by Moryath · · Score: 1

      You know, over time I've noticed an inverse relationship between the intelligence of a poster and their partisanship.

      I hate them all equally. Why? Because both parties are completely corrupt. The nice thing is, when it works properly, the US governmental system is designed to account for that and counter their corruption by playing them off of each other. The problem we get is when one organized political group manages to co-opt both sides of the counterbalance, at which point they start getting away with doing things that they should never be allowed to do.

      There was an idiot in another reply describing this as "gridlock" - but that's the POINT. If one side is stopping the other from doing the wrong things, then the system is working as advertised and all that should get through is the things that are actually of need/benefit for the country. If the opposition stops opposing, or there is no real opposition (like what happens when one party gets hold of both houses of Congress and the Presidency all at the same time), then we have a far worse problem.

      Compared to the alternatives, gridlock isn't a bad thing!

    36. Re:I'll Say It Again ... by TheoMurpse · · Score: 1

      Not a fan of interstates? Do you think the US would have been better off without them?

      Are you familiar with the tragedy of the commons? How do you think anything using public airwaves would work without government regulation?

    37. Re:I'll Say It Again ... by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      Not a fan of any assets being owned publicly. I left the link to my previous posts, I discussed this in great length previously. Gov't shouldn't own assets, there should be no commons. No commons = no tragedy. Everything must be private.

      So far what have the gov't achieved owning stuff? Well, it put liability caps on deep water drilling, pretty much giving green light for corporations not to care about safety and proper insurance and procedures. If I owned that particular piece of ocean privately, I would have never set any liability caps, I would have required enough insurance from BP before they started drilling and without liability, they would have had a much greater incentive to be safe.

      Basically I do not agree with Federal gov't doing anything at all except minimum military and Justice system to protect the contract law and work on criminal cases.

      Also without gov't modifying the rules of the market, there wouldn't have been such a thing as 'limited responsibility'. People would have been personally responsible.

    38. Re:I'll Say It Again ... by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      It's in the exact same part where it says we're a CHRISTIAN Nation!

      Since you forgot the <sarcasm> tag, rather than being a Christian nation, this is an antichristian nation. Its main religion is the worship of money. Its tenets are antithetical to the teachings of Jesus. "It is as hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven as it is to fit a camel through the eye of a needle." He got in quite a bit of trouble when he got pissed at those doing commerce in the temple.

      This is by no means a Christian nation. BTW, Pat Robertson and the rest of the right wingnuts are the wolves in sheep's clothing that Christ warned us about.

    39. Re:I'll Say It Again ... by im_thatoneguy · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Except when gridlock is stopping important, good things.

      There's opposition and then there is obstruction in order to make the opposition look incompetent. That's sabotage not opposition. The trouble is we now have to have a super majority in the senate to make any progress. That is an unreasonable demand.

      The conservatives are blocking every bill (even tax cuts) in an effort to reinforce their campaign motto that government can't and shouldn't do anything. There has to be compromise in any opposition group. You might not get exactly what you want but you can extract bits and pieces. That's not what's happening. The conservative "oppposition" is saying "start over and throw it all away or we won't vote for it." That's unreasonable. The Republicans could have gotten tort reform out of the healthcare bill if they had 'sold out'. But they decided that they were going to go for all the marbles and they ended up getting none of their priorities.

      What frustrates me most of the the GOP right now isn't that they're opposing the DEMs it's that they aren't putting up a real opposition. The only real opposition is coming from right of center democrats because they're actually willing to eventually vote and can extract demands as a result. When you have no vote to offer then you don't have a bargaining position.

    40. Re:I'll Say It Again ... by mcgrew · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I would argue that even from the most hard-right libertarian point of view, the only job of the government is to ensure that markets stay free.

      And I would argue that the only job the government has concerning the market at all is to defend the powerless from the powerful. Cops are there to attempt to keep you (and bankers) from being robbed. The FDA is there to make sure that your drugs are the right strength and your food isn't poisoned (protecting you from the drugmakers and food warehousers). The EPA is there to make sure you can breathe (protecting you from the likes of Monsanto). Regulations on monopolies ensure that your electric company that has no competetion doen't screw you over.

      The Libertarians, unfortunately, want government out of their hair so they CAN screw you over.

    41. Re:I'll Say It Again ... by TheoMurpse · · Score: 1

      Gov't shouldn't own assets, there should be no commons. No commons = no tragedy. Everything must be private.

      I don't think you understand what "commons" means. "Commons" is that which is shared among all people. Air(waves) is one of these.

      If the airwaves were not regulated, you'd have Clear Channel pumping radio on every frequency to block out all competitors. You'd have competitors doing the same thing. You'd have no functioning radio. Or cellphones. Or wifi. Or anything that uses wireless, really.

      Tragedy of the Commons.

      And before you say that the airwaves would be privately owned, first of all, how would that work? You'd need government enforcing property rights in airwaves. This sounds exactly like what we have now. Without government enforcement (i.e., "regulation"), no one could use the airwaves.

    42. Re:I'll Say It Again ... by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      I would argue that even from the most hard-right libertarian point of view, the only job of the government is to ensure that markets stay free.

      From the most hard-right libertarian point of view, the natural state of the market is "free" - which is to say, it is the equilibrium point to which it will always eventually move for the lack of intervention. Die-hard libertarians claim that the sole reason for the existence of monopolies is state intervention on their behalf to create favorable conditions for them.

    43. Re:I'll Say It Again ... by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      Well, countries which had more stringent regulations on banks and did actually enforce them - like Canada - did fare noticeably better. So your point was?

    44. Re:I'll Say It Again ... by gangien · · Score: 1

      that a crap ton of regulations didn't prevent the bubble from forming and popping.

      Canada didn't have the government help create a bubble.

    45. Re:I'll Say It Again ... by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Because every time unregulated freedom is achieved, someone exploits the lack of regulation to turn it into a dictatorship.monopoly. Unregulated freedom is indistinguishable from anarchy, and anarchy has happened many times in the history of the planet, almost always shortly followed by an abusive non-democratic government. That's why freedom is hard to grasp. In practice it's very hard to achieve.

    46. Re:I'll Say It Again ... by TheSync · · Score: 1

      Fractional reserve banking increases the money supply through lending, literally creating money from thin air. In order to maintain the money supply and keep inflation from spiraling out of control, the Central Bank must both manipulate the currency through the prime rate, and regulate the banks through reserve requirements.

      Actually there have been many periods of "free banking" where banks issued their own notes based on fractional reserve banking without having a Central Bank as a "lender of last resort" and without having government required fiat currency. It certainly is in the interest of "free banks" to ensure that the global money supply remains stable, and private banks could coordinate to achieve this, but it is true that the history of Free Banking shows that to be difficult, although it hasn't been tried much recently with the advantage of computer networking communications.

      Given the deflation of the Depression and the Stagflation of the 1970's, it is clear that having a Central Bank and banking regulations does not automatically mean the money supply is actually under control.

      But I myself think fiat currency and Central Banks probably maximize stability, but my mind is open to other possibilities should they prove out.

    47. Re:I'll Say It Again ... by Moryath · · Score: 1

      The trouble is we now have to have a super majority in the senate to make any progress. That is an unreasonable demand.

      Blame the Democrats for that one. They are the ones who created the current Senate rules, which allow for any Senator to place an "anonymous hold" on any bill and allowed for "painless filibustering" in which nobody has to actually stand and talk in order to sustain a filibuster.

      When the Republicans were talking about undoing this rule - remember a few years back? - the Democrats screamed holy hell and so the Republicans caved. Which kind of seems to be a theme when the Republicans are in power...

      The conservatives are blocking every bill (even tax cuts) in an effort to reinforce their campaign motto that government can't and shouldn't do anything.

      The reason is simple: there is no compromise from the Democrats. "Compromise" requires that each side give somewhat to meet somewhere in the middle. Pelosi, controlling the floor of the house, hasn't allowed any contributions from the Republican side whatsoever. For one example, the famous "meeting" when Obama - after bills were already in committee - "met with" Republican leaders to "ask for their ideas" on health care? Not one thing from that meeting was even considered as an amendment to the bill that Pelosi put up for a vote.

      You don't hand someone multiple thousands of pages that you wrote without their input, demand that they vote on it without even time to read and examine it, and then claim that they didn't "compromise" with you. It simply doesn't work that way.

      The only real opposition is coming from right of center democrats because they're actually willing to eventually vote and can extract demands as a result. When you have no vote to offer then you don't have a bargaining position.

      You have it backwards. Pelosi and her cronies are the ones who aren't compromising. Why should the Republicans vote for any bill that has a dozen poison pill attachments to it? Why, for that matter, should someone vote for it when their proffered amendments were either shot down or not even allowed a full floor vote?

      Again - compromise has to come from both sides. The current House leadership, especially, doesn't compromise for shit, so it's no wonder that the Republicans are simply saying "why should we bother?"

    48. Re:I'll Say It Again ... by gangien · · Score: 1

      Which is why i didn't and don't argue for anarchy. I argue for limited government. Government that is generally limited to contract enforcement (including things like fraud laws). And anything that forces people to do something that they have not agreed to do. That way, the only way you can be exploited is if you agree to it.

    49. Re:I'll Say It Again ... by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      Again, gov't should not own any assets. If gov't is the one originally holding the airwaves as an asset, it should be selling that asset to private companies, that's my position. How it would be used from then on would be up to the market to decide, but gov't shouldn't own it.

    50. Re:I'll Say It Again ... by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      Monopolies are formed with government help. Currently there are monopolies in every segment of the market, some monopolies are established by gov't directly (like AT&T was as an example with their land lines, any sort of infrastructure monopolies), some are just sponsored into becoming monopolies and then they are taken care of by the gov't contracts, subsidies, tax breaks and various regulations that kill off competition (this is in everything, banking, financing, telecommunications, education, health, military, energy, agriculture, manufacturing, pretty much everywhere.)

      So it's a huge joke talking about how monopolies would overrun the place if there was no gov't, because gov't is the primary cause for monopolies.

      Gov't has done more to promote monopolies than anything else ever, this includes even copyrights and patents. Gov't loves monopolies because they give much bigger kickbacks to the gov't officials' campaigns etc.

      It's no contest, if there was no gov't at all there would have been much fewer monopolies and they would have covered some very niche parts of the market - natural monopolies. Everywhere else you'd see actual competition.

    51. Re:I'll Say It Again ... by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      That is true, of course. If you actually go and do something, there's a certain chance that you make things worse rather than better. The obvious lesson to learn from this isn't that you should sit and do nothing - it's that you should do the right things. And so long as we're talking about someone else - like governments - the lesson is that you should watch them to ensure they're doing the right thing, and kick them out if they don't. Same as any other position of authority.

    52. Re:I'll Say It Again ... by TheoMurpse · · Score: 1

      Again, tragedy of the commons has nothing to do with government ownership and everything to do with things everyone has free access to (e.g., airwaves, which no one can physically exclude another person from, unlike, say, a diamond ring you can lock in a safe). In other words, things everyone owns by default (air, rainwater, etc.).

      Up to the market to decide

      And when Clear Channel and the rest of the large media groups who would control the private sector's "airwaves frequency assignment body" decide never to allow a small company to broadcast over the airwaves?

    53. Re:I'll Say It Again ... by gangien · · Score: 1

      what the right thing? how can you know? how can anyone know all the right rules and regulations?

      the common thought is, well, we can tinker with the rules and make them better. And i'm sure in some instances that has worked out OK. but eventually, what happens, you get mounds and mounds of paper work and regulations written by bureaucrat, who even if they are honest and well intended, can't really write the correct rules.

      It's like you have some dude writing rules on coding. That's hard enough to do in a small group. But how is that even possible for a country? Can you imagine if there were government mandated practices on coding? when you could code, when you couldn't, what style, what languages, what platforms ect ect. It would be a huge mess. And all this is making the unrealistic assumptions that it's an expert or a group of experts, and that they have the best intentions. In reality it would be IBM and HP and MS and whoever else, lobbying and getting special things put in.

      So yes, i conclude that it is better to let individuals and groups decide for themselves what's best for themselves and their customers.

    54. Re:I'll Say It Again ... by zeroshade · · Score: 1

      So, price fixing, trust building, and cartels couldn't possibly exist without government?

      Without government regulations, larger companies would just buy up all their competitors until competition ceased. Thus creating a monopoly. If any competitor can just be bought out due to an established company being big enough with no anti-trust regulation, then nothing can prevent the monopoly that the company would have.

      You seem to forget the example you're using, AT&T, was knocked off of its Monopoly when Ma Bell was broken up by the government. I don't pretend that government doesn't cause problems. However, the "Free Market" does not fix everything. The Free Market wouldn't prevent a company with large influence in one industry from using it in a different industry to hinder competition. Anti-trust laws do.

    55. Re:I'll Say It Again ... by Abcd1234 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      To me it's rather funny, how well the free market has worked...

      Funny, didn't we *just* have an article about the dangers of antibiotic resistance in factory farming? Ahh, but I suppose that doesn't count as a failure for some reason, 'cuz otherwise your little absurd pet theory might not be correct... pesky cognitive dissonance.

    56. Re:I'll Say It Again ... by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      And how exactly would they be preventing that? In fact the more interesting question is this: how can anybody claim ownership of radio waves at all? I am for more competition and I don't believe this lock onto radio waves by any entity serves a good purpose. FCC is not better doing any of it than any company would, the question really is why should one entity own the right dictate to everybody how one resource is used?

      Sell the assets channel by channel to separate owners and let the market figure it out.

    57. Re:I'll Say It Again ... by gangien · · Score: 1

      I guess i missed the part where i claimed it was perfect.

    58. Re:I'll Say It Again ... by Abcd1234 · · Score: 1

      You know, I betcha early cable subscribers used to say the same thing about commercials on cable TV...

    59. Re:I'll Say It Again ... by Abcd1234 · · Score: 1

      I guess i missed the part where i claimed it was perfect.

      That's odd, you wrote it in another post. Here, let me quote you:

      I argue for limited government. Government that is generally limited to contract enforcement (including things like fraud laws).

      No one would take that position if they didn't feel the free market was perfect. An imperfect market requires government intervention beyond simple contract enforcement in order to protect the public good.

      Your position would allow for, as a topical example, antibiotic impregnated meat. 'cuz, you know, people will just not buy the dangerous products, right? Well, unless everyone in the industry is doing it in a race to the bottom in the name of profit profit profit!

    60. Re:I'll Say It Again ... by TheoMurpse · · Score: 1

      And how exactly would they be preventing that?

      Whenever a small guy starts transmitting on a certain frequency, Clear Channel blasts them out of the water with a more high powered transmitter on the same frequency. That's how they do it.

      In fact the more interesting question is this: how can anybody claim ownership of radio waves at all?

      Which is exactly why I've been referring to the tragedy of the commons. "Commons" meaning "everyone owns it." Or, to put in language you prefer, "no one owns it."

      I don't believe this lock onto radio waves by any entity serves a good purpose

      Jesus, did you even read the Tragedy of the Commons link I provided? It explains exactly why, in practice as well as in theory, unrestrained free market use of something shared among all people cannot possibly work.

      FCC is not better doing any of it than any company would

      Except that I can actually listen to radio stations. Without government interference, I wouldn't be able to, as I've explained above.

      the question really is why should one entity own the right dictate to everybody how one resource is used

      Because the alternative is utter destruction of the resource to the point where no one can use it.

      Sell the assets channel by channel to separate owners and let the market figure it out.

      I already explained why this doesn't work, too: suppose I own 103.1 FM, or something functionally equivalent without using the concept of legal ownership.

      I use it. Now you build a bigger transmitter and transmit on 103.1. No one can listen to my station anymore.

      The only way to prevent this is for the government to get involved by making it illegal to broadcast on a frequency without its permission. In effect, enforcing something like property rights on a common resource.

    61. Re:I'll Say It Again ... by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      I don't see a problem in this at all beyond your assumption that some one particular channel will have radio signal stronger than yours.

      Let the market figure it out, what is happening now is clearly garbage, you already have Clear Channel in plenty of the space, so if the market is interested in competing with it, it should be competing with it, not running to an authority with guns.

    62. Re:I'll Say It Again ... by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      I am not forgetting anything. AT&T was first granted a monopoly by the gov't, not just a monopoly either, it was 'national priority' or 'national security' or some such nonsense.

      Trusts can happen, sure, but not without gov't interference can they stay being monopolies if the services they provide are not bearable by the market. When the services become too expensive or too low quality for the market, the market invents competition.

      Right now the monopolies are not only huge, they are bailed out by the gov't with so called 'taxpayer' money.

    63. Re:I'll Say It Again ... by gangien · · Score: 1

      are you kidding me? my argument is that is better than anything else, not that it is perfect.

    64. Re:I'll Say It Again ... by TheoMurpse · · Score: 1

      I don't see a problem in this at all beyond your assumption that some one particular channel will have radio signal stronger than yours.

      It's not an assumption. It's literally happening as we speak and has been covered repeatedly on Slashdot over the past decade: companies want to do Internet over power lines, but doing so would screw over HAM radio.

      So this isn't a theoretical assumption. This is empirical.

      You also assume markets operate as rational actors. I think the past two years have demonstrated this is categorically untrue. There's also the problem of negative externalities that your chosen position chooses to ignore. I just wanted to bring that up, but I'm hoping it doesn't steal focus from the thrust of our discussion, which is that I think deregulation of airwaves would destroy their utility, while you think the market would function just fine. I'm suggesting current conditions indicate that the market categorically does not "work fine" without regulation.

    65. Re:I'll Say It Again ... by Abcd1234 · · Score: 1

      So antibiotic-impregnated meat is *better* than the government regulating the use of antibiotics in livestock production?

      Interesting...

      And you wonder why libertarians remain on the fringe.

      'course, ultimately, you didn't actually defend your original statement. You said you wondered why people were afraid of the market. I gave you a real, tangible reason why. You then responded with "well, I never said it was perfect"... switch which is it? Should we fear the market, or not? Is it imperfect, and thus in need of regulation, or perfect, and thus not?

    66. Re:I'll Say It Again ... by TheoMurpse · · Score: 1

      I'd also like to point out that in the Hoover administration, government regulation became necessary for the very thing I described earlier: radio stations in an almost completely unregulated market began interfering with each other and destroying social utility of the airwaves.

      A textbook example of the tragedy of the commons.

    67. Re:I'll Say It Again ... by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      I disagree with this: destroying utility of the airwaves.

      On the other hand, if the utility of the airwaves if provably high, then again, they must be sold off and then private owners would rent them or use them personally and it would be their headache - their investment.

    68. Re:I'll Say It Again ... by gangien · · Score: 1

      Your logic is that it's either perfect or imperfect and thus should fear it and regulate it. Which is absurd. Besides, markets have regulations, they're generated by the markets, you know, customers who get to choose what they want and there is competition.

      You also make the assumption that government regulation is going to make problems better. Which it might, some of the time, but in the long run, since we never stop after just a little regulation(which have unintended side affects anyways), leads to far worse problems than what we were trying to prevent.

    69. Re:I'll Say It Again ... by Abcd1234 · · Score: 1

      Your logic is that it's either perfect or imperfect and thus should fear it and regulate it. Which is absurd.

      So the other position is... what?

      Besides, markets have regulations, they're generated by the markets, you know, customers who get to choose what they want and there is competition.

      Christ, do you have no short-term memory? Okay, fine, I'll repost what I said... let's see if you catch it:

      Your position would allow for, as a topical example, antibiotic impregnated meat. 'cuz, you know, people will just not buy the dangerous products, right? Well, unless everyone in the industry is doing it in a race to the bottom

      Can you see the flaw in your logic given the above example? Come on, you can do it.

      You also make the assumption that government regulation is going to make problems better.

      Yo make the assumption that government regulation is going to make problems worse.

      Given the history of the free market, where in the past, fewer regulations meant unsafe workplaces, child labour, lead in paint, fake medicines, etc, etc, I think it's safe to say my position has more evidence supporting it.

      But, of course, libertarianism, like communism, has nothing to do with "evidence", and everything to do with blind idealism...

    70. Re:I'll Say It Again ... by TheoMurpse · · Score: 1

      I disagree with this: destroying utility of the airwaves.

      You can disagree with it all you want, but as I've already demonstrated, it has happened before and it is currently happening again.

      I assume you believe the government has a responsibility of enforcing property rights in real estate, so why not property rights in something like this?

      it would be their headache - their investment

      In the case I have described, the headache >>>>>>>>>> any investment because it becomes impossible to broadcast. Period.

      So you've cooked up a "solution" where there are no radio stations. The market has found the optimal solution! Thank God we didn't have the FCC, or we might not have been allowed to say "fuck" at 10am!

    71. Re:I'll Say It Again ... by zeroshade · · Score: 1

      I don't seem to have as much faith in the market as you because when the market invents its competition. The larger monopoly company will just buy up all the competition again. Once a trust happens, there is no way without government or mismanagement for the trust to be broken up. Every time competition arises, it will simply be gobbled up by the existing monopoly preventing any new competitors from staying in the market. Not only that, but the large monopoly with more resources would then be able to abuse its monopoly to grow into other industries.

      Again, I'm not saying that all regulation is good. I'm not saying that every government interaction with the economy is good. What I am saying, is that both extremes are bad. Too much government regulation and too little government regulation will both be bad for consumers.

    72. Re:I'll Say It Again ... by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      There is no such thing as "too little gov't regulation". All of it is too much, any amount of it.

      Even the case of Standard Oil that is often used to argue against free market is incorrect, it had plenty of help from various politicians in various governments, not only the US, but more importantly by the time it was broken into pieces five or six competitors already appeared.

    73. Re:I'll Say It Again ... by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Which is why i didn't and don't argue for anarchy. I argue for limited government.

      That's nonsense. Limit a government enough and it's anarchy. What we have now is "limited" by the definitions of some. "Limited" in practice means "does only what I want them to do and no more" with the problem being that no two people agree on what's necessary and what's not.

      Government that is generally limited to contract enforcement (including things like fraud laws). And anything that forces people to do something that they have not agreed to do. That way, the only way you can be exploited is if you agree to it.

      If monopolies are allowed, then they will be exploited. Additionally, everyone I've met that's for "limited" government is also anti-union. Are you pro-union? After all, that's a necessary response to monopolies, as seen in the laissez faire period in the US. Oh, and laissez faire failed the first time it was done. Why do you think it would succeed the second time?

    74. Re:I'll Say It Again ... by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      Gov't is not there to give you any rights, it is there to protect the liberties that you have regardless of the gov't wishes.

      The fact that you are saying: something bad is happening right now, only plays against your position, because right now, today, now, the markets are more regulated than they were yesterday and yesterday they were more regulated than they were 2 days ago, etc. Every day brings more regulations, more bills, more monopolies created by governments, more taxes, more subsidies, more spending. Gov't isn't bringing anything at all that can solve any problem, but it can create another problem in form of yet another bill and another regulation.

      You are a Clear channel, you buy your equipment and I set up my equipment, that's bigger than yours or something to that effect if there is no ownership of the waves.

      If there is ownership, then the waves are privately owned and are rented out or used by the owners, and the difference between that and what is happening now is: more market forces that work by letting you make your individual choices. Maybe you'll chose to buy a radio frequency or rent it and put your content on it, so what is stopping you if you have a good plan? Money? If your plan is sound you'll get credit (unlike right now, when you can't get credit because of gov't setting interest rates at 0 and creating an environment, where banks only lend back to gov't through t-bills and making a spread.)

      Interest rates clearly should be left to go where the market takes them, rather than allowing gov't to set them. I haven't 'cooked up' anything, the only way an economy can recover is by removing the power of gov't to subvert the free market.

    75. Re:I'll Say It Again ... by gangien · · Score: 1

      wait limited government = anarchy? ok well, ig uess if you want to call much of the years between the founding of our country and like the turn of the 20th century anarchy, i guess the term applies. (not that i think it was perfect at all, slavery, women's suffrage 2 obvious examples)

      Your problem with 2 people not agreeing could be applied to any form of government.. obviously evne if i had my type of government, not everything i thought would stay, it would change.

      Monopolies will be allowed, but they will rarely if ever happen, because nothing would be stopping anyone else from competing.

      I'm anti union as far as, them getting special privileges from the government. I'm pro union as far as people have the right to associate with whom/whatever they want. But unions should get no special laws like they do now. Of course, in my view, no one gets any special laws at all.

      When did laissez faire fail?

    76. Re:I'll Say It Again ... by Tailhook · · Score: 1

      It would really, really help if we'd explain to my conservative friends just what "Net Neutrality" is.

      Conservative here. Net Neutrality: 'common carrier' status for bandwidth providers. Prevent content producers and carriers from colluding to impose the 'cable TV' model to the Internet. I have no difficulty understanding what is meant by 'net neutrality.' I'm all for it. Markets work best when clearly drawn lines create a horizontal supply chain.

      The National Broadband Plan (the basis of the Waxman and whitehouse proposal) is, however, mostly a redistribution scheme of new taxes on consumers to fund the 'under served' and its army of FCC lawyers. The actual 'net neutrality' part is so limited and weak that it is of no consequence. 'Wireless' is altogether exempt, for instance. It does not apply 'common carrier' status. It does not attempt to delineate between carriers and content; COMCASTDISNEY Inc. or SOUTHWESTBELLTIMERWARNER Inc. are not precluded.

      Your 'conservative friends' aren't in power. The president isn't a conservative and the House and Senate are not held by conservatives. If your agenda requires greater majorities than what you've had since '08 you need to rethink your agenda because you will never have the necessary majorities. That last sentence is crucial and deserves your consideration.

      Oh, and weasel words such as 'extreme polarization' and 'anti-incumbent' are MSM code for 'Democrats losing.'

      --
      Maw! Fire up the karma burner!
    77. Re:I'll Say It Again ... by gangien · · Score: 1

      So the other position is... what?

      having an imperfect system, which is what we will have no matter what.

      Can you see the flaw in your logic given the above example? Come on, you can do it.

      The flaw is you think because you could maybe poke holes in a libertarian system that you think the only option is to make it worse.

      But anyways 2 points
      1. There are a few places for local government. Children, Environment and Animals are cases that I think the local government can regulate to some degree. So maybe if your situation is exactly like you describe it, there would be some government involvemet.

      2. Likely, it is not like you're describing anyways. You think people are just going to eat dangerous products? as i've stated, one part of the government that should be in place is a court system. So if the company sells you dangerous food, you can sue, you can file criminal charge potentially. So even if your feared scenario happens, you would still have plenty of avenues to pursue should it come to that. Someone can't sell you food as being safe and then it kills you, without there being repercussions.

      Yo make the assumption that government regulation is going to make problems worse.

      yes it's called being objective and observing. That it's not hte piles of regulations that make no sense that make my life better, it's the fact that if i don't give someone my money, they can't just take it, so they have to convince me to give my money to them.

      Given the history of the free market, where in the past, fewer regulations meant unsafe workplaces, child labour, lead in paint, fake medicines, etc, etc, I think it's safe to say my position has more evidence supporting it.

      You enjoy all that you do largely because of the free market. Look around you, you would have so little of it if there was no free market. It's not because some bureaucrat wrote some legislation that congress passed, it's because people are pursuing profits. Look at hong kong, less than a life time it was a horrible place to live, compared to now where it's a decent place to live, relatively speaking. Largely a libertarian type government.

      But, of course, libertarianism, like communism, has nothing to do with "evidence", and everything to do with blind idealism...

      You should try being more condescending, it's a great way to get your point across.

      Libertarianism is the root of this country, it's not done too bad really. But hey, feel free to take the blindfold off of me.

    78. Re:I'll Say It Again ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I would argue that even from the most hard-right libertarian point of view, the only job of the government is to ensure that markets stay free. This includes preventing the purchase of monopolies, so that small businesses have a chance to provide equal or better service than the big players. Net neutrality should be in the interests of anyone who believes in the free market.

      Which can only be implemented and assured through government regulation and intervention. And thus you've discovered the one of the great incoherences with Libertarian thinking.

      Seriously. Libertarianism and Free Market laszie faire thinking is just as unworkable as pure socialism, and for the exact same reasons. People are lazy and dumb.

    79. Re:I'll Say It Again ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      wow... it is worse than I ever thought possible

      beyond that, I don't know what to say

    80. Re:I'll Say It Again ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      i have yet to hear a good explanation of this legislation and how it would work in practice.

      i find many "geeks" haven't got a clue as how the internet works.

      how is this idea of neutrality going to affect simple internet routing protocols for example?

      or better yet will this be the end of quality of service agreements?

  5. Good news by Shivetya · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Sorry, any legislation crammed through in the last few days of a session is bound to be crap. Which apparently this one was, as it excluded wireless providers from the rules applied to wired providers. I guess one group pays better than the other.

    We are already seeing the pull back in wireless, we are losing uncapped plans. I do not doubt that if we had the ham fisted regulation we normally get out of the Fed we would soon see that popping back up on wired plans. If abusers cannot be managed away then everyone will simply get clamped down to limits.

    --
    * Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
    1. Re:Good news by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      ...crap. Which apparently this one was, as it excluded wireless providers from the rules applied to wired providers.

      The difference is that wired providers are generally monopolies. ALL monopolies need to be heavily regulated. OTOH, competetion in wireless pretty much negates the need for much regulation there.

      If my wired monopoly ISP throttles Google and gives Bing free reign, my choices are put up with it or do without wired internet. If my cell phone provider screws me over like that he's stupid; I'll go elsewhere.

    2. Re:Good news by Nimey · · Score: 1

      It'd be Really Nice if one standard cellular protocol and frequency band(s) were agreed upon (I'd rather not legislate technical specifications), so that I could in fact take my old Sprint phone and use it on Verizon's network if I so chose, or vice versa.

      Then there really wouldn't be a monopoly in wireless.

      --
      Hail Eris, full of mischief...

      E pluribus sanguinem
    3. Re:Good news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And pay for an extra year of service because of the ETF. Yup, that sure enables the market to work against abusive providers.

    4. Re:Good news by zeroshade · · Score: 1

      Competition in wireless pretty much negates the need for much regulation there.

      Except, ya know. When every one of the wireless providers follows suit and caps their data plans. And when every one of the wireless providers start providing "priority" service on the wireless networks. From what I've seen, I don't see as much competition as people seem to think there is in wireless. Now, if we removed the carrier lock that keeps happening....we might have that competition....

    5. Re:Good news by Abcd1234 · · Score: 1

      Sorry, any legislation crammed through in the last few days of a session is bound to be crap. Which apparently this one was, as it excluded wireless providers from the rules applied to wired providers. I guess one group pays better than the other.

      No, the argument, and it's a legitimate one, is that the wireless space is a sufficiently healthy, open market (doubly so given it has relatively low barriers of entry for new competition to step in) that such regulation is, at this point, premature.

      This is in contrast to the wired ISP game where people have, if they're lucky, two providers available to them.

  6. They're doing it wrong by dkleinsc · · Score: 5, Insightful

    "pulled the plug on efforts to work out a compromise among phone, cable, and Internet companies"

    That right there is a perfect example of what's wrong with Washington. This debate, like so many others, doesn't consider the interests of the public, but simply the interests of the industry players directly affected by the new law.

    There is absolutely no legitimate reason why the US government should be negotiating with AT&T (or Time Warner, or Comcast, etc). None. If the US government wants AT&T to do something, they can pass a law and/or issue a regulation that says AT&T has to do it. No negotiation required - if AT&T doesn't do it, the US government can then bring them to court. That's what makes the government different from a corporate partner of AT&T, and AT&T is subject to the government of the US as long as it's operating in the US.

    However, there's an illegitimate reason why the US government negotiates with AT&T: AT&T is in the running at least for largest campaign contributor in the country.

    --
    I am officially gone from /. Long live http://www.soylentnews.com/
    1. Re:They're doing it wrong by khallow · · Score: 1

      There is absolutely no legitimate reason why the US government should be negotiating with AT&T (or Time Warner, or Comcast, etc). None.

      Sure there is. The US is a democratic republic.

    2. Re:They're doing it wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "We don't care. We don't have to. We're the Phone Company."

    3. Re:They're doing it wrong by LateArthurDent · · Score: 3, Insightful

      There is absolutely no legitimate reason why the US government should be negotiating with AT&T (or Time Warner, or Comcast, etc). None.

      Sure there is. The US is a democratic republic.

      Yes, but corporations don't have suffrage.

    4. Re:They're doing it wrong by characterZer0 · · Score: 1

      There is absolutely no legitimate reason why the US government should be negotiating with AT&T (or Time Warner, or Comcast, etc). None.

      Sure there is. The US is a democratic republic.

      Yes, but corporations don't have suffrage.

      Yes, but corporations donate money to campaigns and most voters are easily swayed by slick ads.

      --
      Go green: turn off your refrigerator.
    5. Re:They're doing it wrong by khallow · · Score: 1

      Yes, but corporations don't have suffrage.

      Their owners, employees, and customers do. Passing law without consulting the target of the law is inherently undemocratic.

    6. Re:They're doing it wrong by geekoid · · Score: 1

      It's a bi-product of the 'choke the beast' policy neocons have been forcing on us since Reagan.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    7. Re:They're doing it wrong by LateArthurDent · · Score: 1

      Yes, but corporations don't have suffrage.

      Their owners, employees, and customers do. Passing law without consulting the target of the law is inherently undemocratic.

      So then you need a general referendum, to make sure that the owners, employees, customers of the corporation, as well as everyone else that could be affected, all get a say. Consulting with the corporation is even less democratic than congress alone doing it. At least we've voted them to represent us. The only people who voted on the members of the board for those corporations are the ones who own stock in them.

    8. Re:They're doing it wrong by khallow · · Score: 1

      So then you need a general referendum

      Let's not get hasty here. The US is not a full-blown democracy for a reason. I find the current system, where the political class actually bothers to "negotiate" with the targets of legislation, who I might add are among the few knowledgeable in the area, seems a lot better than a majority vote from a zillion clueless people.

    9. Re:They're doing it wrong by dkleinsc · · Score: 1

      Passing law without consulting the target of the law is inherently undemocratic.

      I want to be able to break into a bank and steal money out of the vault. Passing a law against doing that without consulting me is inherently undemocratic.

      --
      I am officially gone from /. Long live http://www.soylentnews.com/
    10. Re:They're doing it wrong by LateArthurDent · · Score: 1

      Let's not get hasty here. The US is not a full-blown democracy for a reason. I find the current system, where the political class actually bothers to "negotiate" with the targets of legislation, who I might add are among the few knowledgeable in the area, seems a lot better than a majority vote from a zillion clueless people.

      You do realize what you're doing, right? If the people you elect do something without consulting the corporations, they are being undemocratic. If they consult everyone, it's rule of the majority chaos.

      Why don't I spell it out using this particular instance? This law is against the ISPs interests. It's supposed to be against their interests. The point is that they are trying to leverage their pipes in a way which is not open and against the general interest of everybody else. That would make the more money, at the cost of everyone else. Consulting with them is like consulting with Richard Stallman before enacting copyright laws: they are an extremely biased group that do not accurately reflect the values of the constituency those politicians are supposed to represent.

      (P.S. I was going to say that it's like consulting with NAMBLA on what the age of consent should be, which I think is a far more hilarious analogy, but I didn't want to be accused of pulling the "think of the children" card :).)

    11. Re:They're doing it wrong by khallow · · Score: 1

      You do realize what you're doing, right? If the people you elect do something without consulting the corporations, they are being undemocratic. If they consult everyone, it's rule of the majority chaos.

      Yes. It's more consistent than you seem to think. My point is that the current system allows for interested parties to negotiate while keeping out disinterested parties that contribute noise. ISPs are obvious interested parties while the general public isn't (that is, most people don't care and don't have a clue).

      I used to live in California and one of the contributing factors to the state's current state of incompetence and bankruptcy was the passage of important law and bonds via simple, clueless majorities (ie, the use of propositions and a low voting threshold to bypass the normal California law making process). As a result, I feel that merely making law because a majority wants it, is a bad idea. The majority will have some different fad tomorrow. Instead, I think lawmaking should be more reserved for those affected by the laws and who are knowledgeable in the effects of the law. Keep in mind that in addition to the ISPs there are groups and knowledgeable individuals on the other side to promote passage of a net neutrality law. Just as we shouldn't keep out ISPs despite their vested interests, neither should we keep these guys out.

      As to the negotiations themselves, keep in mind that even if net neutrality passes, there are a number of ways it could be implemented. So why shouldn't ISPs be allowed to assist in order to minimize the harm to themselves?

      This strikes me as another example of the attitude that appeared in the AT&T story (where they're trying to get the "privacy rights" accorded a person on the very dubious assumption that will keep the FCC from revealing probably embarrassing and perhaps, financially costly information about AT&T business practices). There the discussion quickly veered into an assault on "corporate personhood". My take there as here, is that it's a bunch of people who don't like business corporations so they're looking for tricks to keep them out of the political process, even though such tricks are typically blatantly undemocratic (and in the case of the US, unconstitutional).

      In your case, you claim, without cause, that a business shouldn't have a say in law that deeply affects it, yet "the public", many whom can't be bothered to vote, should have a say. The problem is that a) the businesses in question are part of the public, and b) the US Constitution grants via the First Amendment, the right of "petitioning for a governmental redress of grievances". I see that last bit as including the activity of businesses lobbying government to change laws which effect them.

    12. Re:They're doing it wrong by khallow · · Score: 1

      I want to be able to break into a bank and steal money out of the vault. Passing a law against doing that without consulting me is inherently undemocratic.

      Passage of the law predates your birth, you should have tried to change the law before you robbed the bank.

    13. Re:They're doing it wrong by LateArthurDent · · Score: 1

      In your case, you claim, without cause, that a business shouldn't have a say in law that deeply affects it

      It is not without cause. A business is made of people, and if these people, individually, want to have a say, I'm all for that. However, the point of "one person one vote" is that they shouldn't have a greater say than I do. I agree with you about the California thing. However, if they don't like the laws their representatives are passing, then they have their say when they individually vote for their opponents. They shouldn't have a say in the law. Nothing about the process is more fair when you only allow the people who own massive amounts of stock in a corporation, enough to help dictate their direction, to have any say.

      This law deeply influences their business. However, their business involves networks which are laid out in public land. Who is speaking out for their customers? The people who will suddenly find vonage will start to suck because Time Warner wants to give priority to their own more expensive voip service? Or when all the ISPs start charging vonage more in order to give their packets priority, such that vonage's operating costs go up and put them in a disadvantage against the ISPs own offerings?

      Like you said, people don't necessarily know or care that this will affect them. It's the job of the people representing them to know that it does. In this case, it most certainly does.

      yet "the public", many whom can't be bothered to vote, should have a say.

      Not bothering to vote is the second most important civic duty there is. The first one is to actually do your research, be extremely informed about all the candidates, their position on the issues that matter to you, and their history. That takes a whole lot of work, and people who do the whole, "get out and vote" campaigns are doing a disservice. If you're not extremely, through painstaking months-long research well-informed about all of the candidates, not only the major party ones, then please stay home. This way your vote won't offset the vote of somebody who actually did do their research.

    14. Re:They're doing it wrong by khallow · · Score: 1

      This law deeply influences their business. However, their business involves networks which are laid out in public land. Who is speaking out for their customers? The people who will suddenly find vonage will start to suck because Time Warner wants to give priority to their own more expensive voip service? Or when all the ISPs start charging vonage more in order to give their packets priority, such that vonage's operating costs go up and put them in a disadvantage against the ISPs own offerings?

      This is what I call the "fruit of the poisoned tree" argument. Just because virtually all current human activity is tainted by the use of public resources, does not imply that government should have a say in every aspect of human endeavor. Keep in mind that I pay taxes to fund government. So using the same argument, I could claim that I, personally, not the government nor other citizens should have final say on this matter. As I see it, if Time Warner's customers don't like selective degrading of their service, then they can get a different ISP. It doesn't require the involvement of government.

  7. If I want it AND dad wants it ... it's bipartisan. by jabberwock · · Score: 5, Funny

    ... As a wacko leftist libertarian crypto-anarcho peacenik Commie, the oldest son of a right-wing fringe element religo millennialist rapturizing nut job, I have to tell you: Net Neutrality is the one thing dad and I can safely talk about, and agree on. That, and maybe there are some foods we both like.

  8. So let me get this straight by Pojut · · Score: 2, Insightful

    We have asshole Republicans who only care about trying to keep their grip on power, and then we have spineless Democrats who can't even achieve their agenda while maintaining a majority and the White House.

    Awesome.

    1. Re:So let me get this straight by nj_peeps · · Score: 1

      Ding, Ding, Ding.... we have a winner, give this man a prize!

      --
      "Anyone who trades liberty for security deserves neither liberty nor security" --Benjamin Franklin
    2. Re:So let me get this straight by jlf278 · · Score: 1

      I don't see why you got modded offtopic. This is the reason we don't have net neutrality, among many, many other laws needed for the public good. Just so we're clear though, the Democrats agenda is the same as the republicans - a grip on power, but yes it looks like they are going to fail at that shortly. At this point I'm completely disillusioned with our whole political process.

    3. Re:So let me get this straight by Pojut · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It's like I was saying yesterday...both parties have proven many times over that they can't be trusted.

    4. Re:So let me get this straight by The_mad_linguist · · Score: 1

      Not like the Republicans can even do anything with their grip on power either.

      I don't think we've gotten any oil out of Iraq yet.

  9. Re:Run away! Run away! by mrsquid0 · · Score: 1

    Actually, the tax changes for most people will be rather small.

    --
    Just because you are paranoid does not mean that no-one is out to get you.
  10. I'm glad by sshuber · · Score: 0

    I agree with the concept that you can't shape traffic to give priority to certain things over certain things, that helps everyone. What I don't agree with in the bill is the subsidizing of broadband and turning it into a "right" that all citizens should have. I enjoy working hard to pay for premium services like quality broadband. As soon as you start giving it away, the losses incurred by the providers of said service will jack up the prices to the people that pay, ala what will happen with health care if the current legislation isn't repealed. I also don't want my tax dollars going to that crap. They need to re-work that part of the bill then introduce it again.

  11. Net Neutrality is not always about Net Neutrality by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's sometimes scary to read about Net Neutrality on the likes of Slashdot and Digg, and see so many "informed" people clamoring to have Congress dish out Net Neutrality.

    The way to ensure Net Neutrality, by the government, is to have the government step in and wedge themselves into the place where the companies would like to wedge themselves. The government is using Net Neutrality as a means to not only throttle, but to block outright. How can we think a Net Neutrality Act is going to be anything but corrupt, bureaucratic garbage when just the other day (maybe even yesterday?), there was an article describing how the government (in this case, the White House) was going directly to ISPs to block sites it did not like--without any law saying that they have too comply?

    Sure, I do not mind when the government asks. But, I mind when the government orders.

    Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

  12. Mismatched debate by Sonny+Yatsen · · Score: 2, Interesting

    A large part of the problem about Net Neutrality is that there is a complete mismatch of knowledge between those for and those against. People who are generally for Net Neutrality generally are more knowledgeable (although not always true) about why Net Neutrality is an important issue. Those who are against it (at least the lay people and not the businesses involved) generally don't know what Net Neutrality stands for and so they believe it's some sort of shadowy government censorship of free speech or governmental takeover or interference with business or socialism or whatever. Both sides are talking past each other and there is no common grounds of agreement. As long as that's true, Net Neutrality is dead.

    --
    My postings are informational and does not constitute legal advice. Act on it at your risk.
    1. Re:Mismatched debate by bsDaemon · · Score: 1

      Each sides is trying to "frame the debate," but unlike other issues where people frame the debate, such as abortion, guns, immigration, etc, there isn't enough common knowledge to allow people in the middle to have an independent basis for deciding who's frame is more like a bucket of bullshit. This is in contrast to something like guns, where at least there is the second amendment, which while subject to interpretation, is only one sentence long, unlike most of the laws that form the "rational" basis for net neutrality.

      So, yeah, each extreme is talking past each other, but they know it and are doing it on purpose. Unfortunately, the people in the middle can't really tell. Or maybe they can and just don't care.

    2. Re:Mismatched debate by GigsVT · · Score: 1

      The people who support Net Neutrality usually have no fucking clue what it's about.

      They often think it's going to give them some option other than their DSL or cable oligopoly.

      They don't know what a "tier-1" carrier means. They don't know about settlement-free peering.

      They have no idea what sort of consequences would happen to a tier-1 that decided to go rogue and start violating their transit-free agreements by doing content based blocking.

      If they did, they wouldn't support this congressional power grab.

      --
      I've had enough abrasive sigs. Kittens are cute and fuzzy.
    3. Re:Mismatched debate by TheSync · · Score: 1

      A large part of the problem about Net Neutrality is that there is a complete mismatch of knowledge between those for and those against.

      A large part of the problem about Net Neutrality is that THERE IS NO PROBLEM YET.

      Abortions happen. People get shot with guns. Poisonous chemicals get dumped into rivers. CO2 is released into the atmosphere. This actually happens, and a rational discussion could be had about regulation.

      But no one is actually violating "Net Neutrality" right now. We might as well be regulating the number of angels on the head of a pin.

      An ISP or two tried to cut off Torrent-using bandwidth hogs, then backed down to a more reasonable solution under market forces.

  13. Dear Congress by elrous0 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Okay, everyone in Congress NOT owned by corporations and rich interest groups please step forward. ...Whoa, not so fast Democrats

    --
    SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
  14. You? Why TF should they care about YOU? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Democrats, Republicans... what's the difference? Neither one cares about the citizenry. This farce of democracy is made so evident by, well, everything they do. Even the idea of calling them "representatives" is a farce, since they don't represent us. Well, I suppose they DO represent themselves and their monied interests.

    If you genuinely want to break out of this kind of rule, you need to break it from the bottom. Free software didn't compete with commercial software by asking the corporations if they would mind please changing the way they charge for things. No, free software started by people just doing it, and ignoring the monied interests.

    You can do the same thing with governance. All you have to do is contribute to one of the many projects listed there, or to the umbrella group.

    Or you can just sit back and whine about how the Democrats and/or Republicans screwed you over again. Here's a tip: it is never going to stop unless you stop relying on them to make decisions for you.

    1. Re:You? Why TF should they care about YOU? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      I'm so tired of the "they're equally bad" argument. They aren't. Republican's have systematically destroyed the middle class in the last 30 years, not the Democrats. The Republican's are lying hypocrites that utilize threats of violence and appeal to the most racist/homophobic members of our society.

      They are both bad, but they are not equally bad.

    2. Re:You? Why TF should they care about YOU? by AmigaMMC · · Score: 5, Informative
      You got that one wrong, you meant to write Republicans (homophobic, racist, anti-middle class...). Who voted against the repeal of DADT? Republicans, Who voted against a more comprehensive anti hate crime law? Republicans. Who sleeps with the religious right bowing to its will? Republicans. Who voted against tax breaks for small businesses 2 weeks ago? Republicans. Who voted against tax breaks for corporations who keep jobs in the U.S. less than a week ago? Republicans. Who created a $13 TRILLION hole in the government finances? BUSH thank you very much, he's a republicans.
      and the list goes on... As for the last 30 years, actually I beat you, let's do 60 years, under Democrats the income of the middle class has steadily increased by 3%/year and that of the upper class by 2%/year, under Republicans the increase has been around 1% for both.

      if you want to believe propaganda go right ahead, You would look a lot smarter if you did some research first though. I'm an independent and I can think with my own brain. There are lots of stupid Democrats but they don't resemble the Republicans by far.

    3. Re:You? Why TF should they care about YOU? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      DEMOCRATS have destroyed the middle class? BWAHWWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAH.

      You should do stand up.

    4. Re:You? Why TF should they care about YOU? by BigHungryJoe · · Score: 3, Interesting

      You know, that's all true. The only people who do believe that the parties are equally bad (geminidomino) don't actually pay attention to politics.

    5. Re:You? Why TF should they care about YOU? by MaWeiTao · · Score: 2, Funny

      The people who don't think the parties are equally bad are delusional.

    6. Re:You? Why TF should they care about YOU? by Moryath · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You got that one wrong, you meant to write Republicans (homophobic, racist, anti-middle class...).

      As opposed to Democrats, who keep people in what is basically slavery, lie about trying to "improve education" while doing their best to make sure it is never improved for their voting base, tax the fuck out of people to pay for deadbeats (my city is now 13bn in the hole thanks to demofucks on the city council and the mayor's office not doing shit to get the Katrina Debris out: those lazy assholes are STILL demanding government payouts and housing/welfare checks with no plan to ever go home) and endorse the evisceration of the First Amendment, Second Amendment, and anything else in that pesky "Constitution" thingy that gets in their way?

      Who voted against the repeal of DADT? Republicans

      Also most of the joint chiefs of staff... who are not republicans.

      Who voted against a more comprehensive anti hate crime law?

      I believe the word you really mean is "thoughtcrime law", which many of us of a libertarian bent view as a Bad Thing.

      Who sleeps with the religious right bowing to its will? Republicans.

      Funny. Ever seen black preachers in action, poverty-pimping the slaves back to the Democrat for another round of uninformed, uneducated, "voting"?

      Who voted against tax breaks for small businesses 2 weeks ago? Republicans.

      What else was in the bill? Oh yeah, another round of TARP-crap that would have been WORTHLESS to small businesses. But you're too busy being a partisan fucktard to notice.

      Who voted against tax breaks for corporations who keep jobs in the U.S. less than a week ago? Republicans.

      See above...

      Who created a $13 TRILLION hole in the government finances? BUSH thank you very much, he's a republicans.

      Who voted for every bit of that spending legislation? Oh yeah, the DEMOCRATS... including Obama, every time since 2004...

      As for the last 30 years, actually I beat you, let's do 60 years, under Democrats the income of the middle class has steadily increased by 3%/year and that of the upper class by 2%/year, under Republicans the increase has been around 1% for both.

      Do you mean under a Democrat president or Democrat congress? Because the two are fundamentally different due to the lack of a line-item veto. The strongest growth was actually 1994-2000, when it was Clinton in the President's chair (holding the Republicans in check when he wasn't too busy getting blowjobs from interns) but the Republicans at least being sort-of fiscally responsible in the spending bills which Clinton only got a veto/pass vote on.

      If we had a line item veto, I'd say fuck it, just make sure that no party gets hold of House, Senate, and Presidency all at once. As it stands, I'm more comfortable with a Republican congress and a Democrat president to hold them in check, thanks.

      The problem is NOT one side or the other. The problem is Americans are too fucking stupid and uneducated these days to recognize that in order for our system to work, we have to have some goddamn checks and balances. The system, as stated, is not to rely on the goodness of men, but rather, ambition must be made to counteract ambition.

      If there's a Democrat in the oval office, I vote Republican for congress. If there's a Republican in the oval office, I vote Democrat for office. Every time we've had one party controlling it all - Carter, Clinton's first two years, Bush's first six (and fuck it, his last two as well, since he was a wimpy-ass lame-duck RINO retard who didn't veto even ONE THING that Pelosi and Reid sent his way in 2006-2008), America suffered for it.

      That's the reality. Now grow up and get your partisan head out of your partisan ass.

    7. Re:You? Why TF should they care about YOU? by crlove · · Score: 4, Funny

      I disagree with you, but I'm pretty sure you're not Hitler.

    8. Re:You? Why TF should they care about YOU? by geminidomino · · Score: 1

      Thank you for saving me having to type all of that. :)

    9. Re:You? Why TF should they care about YOU? by mcgrew · · Score: 2, Insightful

      As opposed to Democrats, who keep people in what is basically slavery

      What? That's absurd. Who keeps voting against minimum wage laws? Who keeps voting against worker safety laws? Who keeps voting against extended unemployment benefits? How by any stretch of the imagination are Democrats keeping people in "virtual slavery"? If anyone, it's the Republicans keeping workers in virtual slavery.

      lie about trying to "improve education" while doing their best to make sure it is never improved

      The clusterfuck "No Child Left Behind" was a Bush initiative. Are you from Bizarro World?

      tax the fuck out of people to pay for deadbeats

      I guess you never heard of PWARA? It ended AFDC during the Clinton administration.

      my city is now 13bn in the hole thanks to demofucks on the city council and the mayor's office not doing shit to get the Katrina Debris out

      I don't live in Louisiana, and neither do most Americans. Just because the idiot on your city council are Democrats doesn't mean all Democrats are idiots.

      those lazy assholes are STILL demanding government payouts and housing/welfare checks with no plan to ever go home

      News flash: Again, PWARA. Look it instead of listening to Limbaugh and cure your ignorance if you dare.

      Also most of the joint chiefs of staff... who are not republicans.

      I fail to see your point. Oh, you didn't have one.

      I believe the word you really mean is "thoughtcrime law", which many of us of a libertarian bent view as a Bad Thing.

      Well thank you for finally saying something that didn't sound retarded.

      Who sleeps with the religious right bowing to its will? Republicans.
      Funny. Ever seen black preachers in action, poverty-pimping the slaves back to the Democrat for another round of uninformed, uneducated, "voting"?

      Any poor person, white or black, who votes Republican is even more stupid than a rich man voting Democrat.

      But you're too busy being a partisan fucktard to notice.

      Says the guy who demonizes Democrats.

      If there's a Democrat in the oval office, I vote Republican for congress. If there's a Republican in the oval office, I vote Democrat for office.

      That's damned hard to believe considering the rest of your comment. Myself, I'm either voting for Rich Whitney or Lex Green for Illinois Governor this election, haven't made up my mind which yet. The reason? Both of them want pot legalized, while the Democrat and Republican are aghast at the idea. Only a moron votes for a candidate who wants him in jail. Plus, legalized pot would go a long way to clearing up our fiscal problems.

    10. Re:You? Why TF should they care about YOU? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sure, maybe one party is slightly worse than the other. And maybe being fried in oil is worse than being skinned alive. Does it really matter?

      "Equally bad" is a not the same as "both bad." Both parties are full of corrupt, selfish, corrupt, money-whoring, corrupt, selfish, corrupt politicians. To say that either one is good is to be blatantly ignorant of how politics actually works.

      These guys LIVE to take money from lobbyists and then do the bidding of those lobbyists' bosses. Period. Everything else politicians do is just a front to make it look like this is a democracy. When everyone knows it is really plutocracy.

      It's just too bad we have absolutely no recourse whatsoever. Oh wait. That was the link above: http://metagovernment.org/

    11. Re:You? Why TF should they care about YOU? by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      First, "No Child Left Behind" was written by Teddy Kennedy (maybe you've heard of him?).
      Oh, never mind, I just read your last paragraph.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    12. Re:You? Why TF should they care about YOU? by clarkkent09 · · Score: 0, Troll

      Republicans (homophobic, racist, anti-middle class...)

      You mean Democrats (anti-American, communist, traitors...)? Name calling doesn't get you anywhere. How come this president campaigned, and still does, against divisiveness and yet the democrats (from the top) have been leading the way when it comes to the most vicious insults and attacks on their opponents. Also, practically all incidents of violence so far in this election campaign have come from the left.

      Who voted against the repeal of DADT? Republicans

      DADT was enacted under Clinton.

      Who voted against a more comprehensive anti hate crime law? Republicans.

      Screw you and your "hate" crimes and special protected classes that want to have different laws apply to them than to the rest of us. Assault is already a crime. Murder is already a crime. Why is it more of a crime if it was committed because what the assailant thought about the victim, as opposed to wanting to take the victims money or whatever?

      Who voted against tax breaks for corporations who keep jobs in the U.S. less than a week ago? Republicans.

      Democrats talking about tax breaks is laughable. Are you seriously going to argue that Democrats are generally in favor of lower taxes than Republicans?

      Who created a $13 TRILLION hole in the government finances? BUSH

      Far be it from me to defend Bush but let me just say that Democrats controlled the Congress and it wasn't a normal situation because of the 9/11 and a huge bipartisan support for massive increase in defense spending. Bush may have been a Republican but he didn't act in accordance to the Republican values and that is part of the reason Tea Party protests actually started while he was still in office. Look it up.

      As for the last 30 years, actually I beat you, let's do 60 years, under Democrats the income of the middle class has steadily increased by 3%/year and that of the upper class by 2%/year, under Republicans the increase has been around 1% for both.

      This is particularly laughable. The overall living standard depend on a lot of things other than who is in office, but on average it has been higher when Republicans were in office.

      --
      Negative moral value of force outweighs the positive value of good intentions.
    13. Re:You? Why TF should they care about YOU? by andydread · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You need to be directing you anger at the fucking Republicans. They are the ones who want to SHUTDOWN the fucking government. They are the ones who REFUSE to cooperate. The Democrats CANNOT do it without the Republicans and they are opposing it. Give me a fucking break already OK.

    14. Re:You? Why TF should they care about YOU? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      OMG you're the "get a brain, morans!" guy, aren't you?

    15. Re:You? Why TF should they care about YOU? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thank God, a voice of reason in this hellhole. Slashdot has become a loony left hangout full of smug hippie assholes who think, contrary to the astonishing evidence to the contrary, that the government can solve all our problems. Used to be more of a libertarian (rational and the irrational ones, but hey I'll take a "privatize the roads!" Libertarian over some jackoff "Obama Can Do, I'm So Happy I Voted for a Nobody Community Organizer Because it Shows How Enlightened I am" dipshit any day.

    16. Re:You? Why TF should they care about YOU? by Moryath · · Score: 0, Troll

      What the hell, it's feeding the troll, but I've got a quiet afternoon planned.

      What? That's absurd. Who keeps voting against minimum wage laws? Who keeps voting against worker safety laws? Who keeps voting against extended unemployment benefits? How by any stretch of the imagination are Democrats keeping people in "virtual slavery"? If anyone, it's the Republicans keeping workers in virtual slavery.

      Wrong. Democrat "safe districts" are almost always full of a group of poor, uneducated "minorities" with higher joblessness rates, higher dropout rates, higher crime rates, higher underage gang membership rates, the works. Democrats don't WANT the people in these districts to get away from the blight, however. If you have ever seen a Dem in these areas campaigning, or watched what they put forth in terms of policies, it is NEVER what actually needs to be done to clear up crime, get rid of the gangs, and clean it up to attract any decent business back to the area.

      Want to know how Detroit became the shithole it is? Decades of corruption on the parts of corrupt assholes like Coleman Young, Dennis Archer, and Kwame Kilpatrick who systematically stole whatever tax money they could while telling the captive poor that they'd better not vote Republican because those "evil mean white assholes" wanted to take away their welfare checks and food stamps. Want to know how Los Angeles got to be where it is? How Memphis got to be the murder capital of the US for a couple years? Milwaukee? East St. Louis? How about Washington DC, where the poverty pimps had the machine so rigged that Marion Barry kept getting reelected and reelected even after being a convicted felon, in and out of jail, and is back on the city council as a poverty pimp even today.

      Democrats don't want to improve the lot of blacks or hispanics. They want to keep them locked up in dead-end ghettos and barrios, reliably cut off from society and happily voting Democrat like cattle lest those "evil mean white devils" somehow make things worse for them.

      The clusterfuck "No Child Left Behind" was a Bush initiative. Are you from Bizarro World?

      Local school boards in my area are invariably Democrat.
      Teacher's Unions, which seem to exist largely to ensure that the crappiest teachers stick around forever, are invariably and reliably Democrat.
      Ted Kennedy, a Democrat, was the NCLB's primary co-author and its primary sponsor through the legislative process.
      The NCLB passed the House by a 384-45 vote and Senate by 91-8; Nays were 5 Republican 3 Democrat in the Senate and 34 Republican, 10 Democrat in the House.

      I think you're the one from Bizarro World; I already pointed out how much of a stupid, retarded RINO Bush was.

      I don't live in Louisiana, and neither do most Americans. Just because the idiot on your city council are Democrats doesn't mean all Democrats are idiots... News flash: Again, PWARA. Look it instead of listening to Limbaugh and cure your ignorance if you dare.

      I don't listen to Limbaugh because he's a partisan hack. I have better things to do with my time.
      Of course, I don't live in Louisiana either. More states than just Louisiana got fucked over by the Katrina Debris.

      Also, what the fuck do you mean by PWARA? Or did you mean PRWORA? As in this shitty piece of garbage legislation that is basically a meaningless, in-name-only change since it has holes in it to drive an entire truckload full of generational fraudsters through?

      Any poor person, white or black, who votes Republican is even more stupid than a rich man voting Democrat.

      Any poor person, white or black, who votes reliably one way or the other - instead of understanding the meaning of checks and balances and working to ensure that neither of these asshole parties completely controls the governmen

    17. Re:You? Why TF should they care about YOU? by JoesRagingBileDuct · · Score: 1
      I can't believe this is rated insightful.

      You got that one wrong, you meant to write Republicans (homophobic, racist, anti-middle class...).

      As opposed to Democrats, who keep people in what is basically slavery

      I'm sorry, what? In what conceivable way are you kept in slavery? One of the dumbest things I have ever heard is the assertion that taxes are tantamount to slavery or tyranny. Taxes are the price you pay to live in a society. They pay for police, firefighters, roads a military an innumerable number of things that allow you to live the comfortable life you live. That government job you have, or you mother has or your brother has is paid for from those taxes. It most every time I hear about some anti-tax nut it turns out they make their living off a government job, military pension, or some part of the social safety net.

      lie about trying to "improve education" while doing their best to make sure it is never improved for their voting base

      Again, you have no idea what your talking about and are just spitting up the tripe you've been spoon fed. How have they lied about improving education? There is a reason why TEACHERS generally support more liberal candidates. Because they actually do more than propose vouchers (more anti-tax stuff) and closing down the department of education.

      <snip rant about people getting social insurance>

      and endorse the evisceration of the First Amendment, Second Amendment, and anything else in that pesky "Constitution" thingy that gets in their way?

      Your string of assertions without evidence is truly astounding. Please explain how the big bad Democrats have taken away your gun rights and then put that up against the people who kept showing up to town halls last year with automatic rifles hung on their shoulders. Explain to me how its the Democrats who want to force Christianity down our throats, remove the constitutionally mandated citizenship birthright and remove the constitutionally mandated right to elect your representatives. Oh, right. It is the constitution-loving Republicans that want to do that. These are things that have been proposed or publicly supported by Boener and/or McConell among others. Not just fringe groups.

      Who voted against the repeal of DADT? Republicans

      Also most of the joint chiefs of staff... who are not republicans.

      "It is my personal belief that allowing gays and lesbians to serve openly would be the right thing to do". -Admiral Mullen Chairman of the joint chiefs of staff
      Defense Sec. Robert Gates want's to get rid of DADT. Even Colon Powell wants to repeal it. And they are definitely Republicans.
      Even if that were not the case, it is the military's responsibility to carry out policy, not create it.

      Who voted against a more comprehensive anti hate crime law?

      I believe the word you really mean is "thoughtcrime law", which many of us of a libertarian bent view as a Bad Thing.

      So, I'm confused. You think it's ok to have racially based attacks on people? Or maybe its attacks on gay people that you are ok with?

      Who sleeps with the religious right bowing to its will? Republicans.

      Funny. Ever seen black preachers in action, poverty-pimping the slaves back to the Democrat for another round of uninformed, uneducated, "voting"?

      There is a big difference. The nut-job evangelical minister's ramblings tend to become part of the Republican platform. Please point me to where policy has come from a black preacher. I'm going to ignore your race-tolling for now, not to mention the ironical reference to being uninformed and uneducated.

      Who voted against tax breaks for small businesses 2 weeks ago? Republicans.

      What else was in the bill? Oh yeah, another round of TARP-crap that would have been WORTHL

    18. Re:You? Why TF should they care about YOU? by liposuction · · Score: 0, Troll

      Anyone that still believes Right and Left are limited to donkey and elephant is ignorant. More government or less government - there's your right and left.

      Also, did you check into why Republicans might have voted against certain tax breaks? Knowing what I know about recent bills Democrats have wanted passed, it probably contained a line requiring all financial transactions over $600 to include a 1099 or something equally outrageous.

      Oh wait wut?

      --
      "Thoughts are more powerful than any weapon, and I don't even let my people own guns." --Joseph Stalin
    19. Re:You? Why TF should they care about YOU? by mcgrew · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The facts are that the meltdown was caused by eight years of a President who only cared about the uber-rich. The Dems have only been there two -- you expect Obama (who's certainly not the best President we ever had, but head and shoulders above the guy before him) to fix eight years of Bush overnight?

      Have a look at this graph. Poverty rose from 1972 until shortly after Clinton was elected (with a slight decrease in poverty after Reagan left office), when it fell precipitously. It started rising shortly after the Bush tax cuts for the rich.

      But, please, don't let facts fuck up your delusions.

    20. Re:You? Why TF should they care about YOU? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Right. I'm sure those numbers have absolutely nothing to do with the recession and everything to do with democrats being in control.

    21. Re:You? Why TF should they care about YOU? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thanks for proving yet again that any self-professed Libertarian is just as idiotically partisan as the people they oppose.

    22. Re:You? Why TF should they care about YOU? by TheSync · · Score: 1

      . They are the ones who want to SHUTDOWN the fucking government.

      Unfortunately, the recent track record of the Republicans is that they increased government spending while they controlled Congress, just in slightly different ways than the Democrats have.

    23. Re:You? Why TF should they care about YOU? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What? That's absurd. Who keeps voting against minimum wage laws?

      Maybe those that vote against such Utopian fantasies as minimum wage laws actually look for EVIDENCE that they help those they're supposedly intended to help?

      Got the balls to actually research what happens to unemployment and poverty rates amongst lower-skilled and lower-educated workers when minimum wage laws are imposed or the wages they mandate are increased?

      Here's a clue: when something gets more expensive, there's less demand for it. Good luck repealing THAT basic fact of economics.

      Minimum-wage laws are pernicious. Of course, they do have the maybe-not-so-unintended effect of pricing lower-skilled and lower-educated people out of the labor market and thus creating a persistent and multi-generational underclass dependent upon government handouts...

    24. Re:You? Why TF should they care about YOU? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "DADT was enacted under Clinton." perhaps, but that certainly isn't the whole story is it?
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don't_ask,_don't_tell#History

    25. Re:You? Why TF should they care about YOU? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Really?!?

      So if there were nothing but 100% Democrats in both the House and Senate, everything would be blissful?

      There would be no corruption, no scandal, no lobbyists, no pork, no earmarks? Everyone's voice would be heard, and all people would be represented. We would have true, utopian democracy?

      There are scandals about Democrats (and yes, most certainly Republicans) all the time. These people (both Democrats and Republicans, quite equally) take enormous campaign contributions from lobbyists and then just so happen to vote in favor of what those lobbyists are advocating. Isn't that a little strange?

      Is it really only Republicans who are corrupt? Or is there a chance that just maybe all politicians are more interested in power and money then they are in you?

    26. Re:You? Why TF should they care about YOU? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Stop trying to use logic. It has no place in political discussion.

    27. Re:You? Why TF should they care about YOU? by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      Wrong. Democrat "safe districts" are almost always full of a group of poor, uneducated "minorities" with higher joblessness rates, higher dropout rates, higher crime rates, higher underage gang membership rates, the works. Democrats don't WANT the people in these districts to get away from the blight, however. If you have ever seen a Dem in these areas campaigning, or watched what they put forth in terms of policies, it is NEVER what actually needs to be done to clear up crime, get rid of the gangs, and clean it up to attract any decent business back to the area.

      That's not how it is in my city. Here, you can't drive two blocks in the ghetto without seeing three police cars, and the whole place is a TIF district now. Locally there's zero difference between dems and repubs; the person and their capabilities are far more important than ideologies. Maybe you need to move out of N.O.? It sounds like you people keep voting incompetents in. Your "they want people to be poor" is probably why you got modded down; there is no "-1,fucking stupid and inane" moderation so "troll" suffices.

      Want to know how Detroit became the shithole it is? Decades of corruption on the parts of corrupt assholes like Coleman Young, Dennis Archer, and Kwame Kilpatrick who systematically stole whatever tax money they could while telling the captive poor that they'd better not vote Republican because those "evil mean white assholes" wanted to take away their welfare checks and food stamps.

      Wrong. Detroit died because the uber-rich discovered that it's cheaper to make cars where people only pay thirty bucks a month for rent, and the moderately well off who rent properties out can't afford to rent that cheaply. Detroit took decades to die. Local governments certainly had a hand in its death, but multinaltional corporations are the true villians here.

      Democrats don't want to improve the lot of blacks or hispanics. They want to keep them locked up in dead-end ghettos and barrios, reliably cut off from society and happily voting Democrat like cattle lest those "evil mean white devils" somehow make things worse for them.

      Where in the HELL do you fucking wingnuts get these incredibly retarded ideas, anyway?

      Also, what the fuck do you mean by PWARA? Or did you mean PRWORA? As in this shitty piece of garbage legislation that is basically a meaningless, in-name-only change since it has holes in it to drive an entire truckload full of generational fraudsters through?

      Sorry, I'm not biting your troll any more. Talking with you is like arguing about evolution with somebody from Kansas.

  15. Re:Run away! Run away! by Andraax · · Score: 2, Insightful

    For you maybe. People in my pay range ($70-95K) are looking at Federal tax increases of over $2,000. Might be chump change to you, but not to me.

  16. polarization by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The net neutrality debate seems to have fallen victim to the extreme polarization evident in the larger political culture.

    Yes, polarization between those who receive huge contributions from the media lobbies, and those who don't.

  17. Re:Net Neutrality is not always about Net Neutrali by GigsVT · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    Because liberals still are under the delusion that government has the ability to do good, despite decades of evidence to the contrary.

    --
    I've had enough abrasive sigs. Kittens are cute and fuzzy.
  18. No surprise at all by Jawnn · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Big business runs our government, and beginning with the upcoming election, it will largely define our government with the huge piles of cash they're pouring into the campaigns of those who will promise to do their bidding. Influence peddling is nothing new, of course, but we are about to witness a sea change the concentration of political power the scale of which is chilling. Not surprisingly, the telecom industry, by some measures, the most powerful lobby (e.g. "buyer of influence") in Washington, is going to get everything they want. We are screwed.

  19. My friends you need to understand something. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    When it comes to providing a service that no one else has. A company has the right to bring in the most revenue it can. If ESPN3 wants to license it's content and pipe it through XBox then it should have the right in a free market to do that. After all that XBox did cost money. If some other sports network wants to do the same through some other box, then it should have the right to do that.

    When you get the feds involved in policy making you run the risk of eliminating the right to freely market and sell some value added service or product. Competition will work better than any regulation that has the word "Neutral" in it to control the behavior of a company. After all, unless it is on a hill, a car in neutral is not going anywhere.

    Keep this in mind. People offer up free software because they want to. That software competes with software that is not free. An open and free society can only remain that way when government is not allowed to regulate liberties away.

    1. Re:My friends you need to understand something. by Calydor · · Score: 1

      The way I'm understanding this it's the LACK of regulation that's taking away your liberty to freely pick a small ISP -and- get ESPN3 at the same time.

      --
      -=This sig has nothing to do with my comment. Move along now=-
  20. Re:Run away! Run away! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Actually, the tax changes for most people will be rather small.

    Yeah, right. $700 billion in tax increases is "rather small".

    Bet you fail to see the problem with that, don't you? And I bet you're wondering where the utter bitch-slapping the Democrats are going to take at the polls in a month is coming from.

    Get this: Russ Feingold - iconic and very liberal long-term Democrat Senator from Wisconsin - is down 15 points to his Republican opponent.

    Two long-term Democrat Senators from California are in fights for their political lives - ultra-liberal California. They're so damn desperate that they're trying a "look, she hired an illegal immigrant" smear campaign. Yep, the party that won't allow the US as a sovereign nation to enforce its borders is pulling a race-and-illegal-immigrant-based smear campaign: "She's a Latina working as a maid - how can you NOT think she could be an illegal?!?!" Nope, no fanti-immigrant FUD/racism there. Oh, no, not from Democrats.

  21. Re:Run away! Run away! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Greedy asshole. I would give $2000 more to be 'burdened' with that tax bracket. Like about 75% of Americans, I make less than that.

  22. Both sides are bad... by Crash+Culligan · · Score: 1

    ...but at least the Republicans stay bought?

    --
    You cannot truly appreciate Dilbert until you read it in the original Klingon.
    1. Re:Both sides are bad... by Shotgun · · Score: 1

      No. They just have less need to lie about it.

      --
      Aah, change is good. -- Rafiki
      Yeah, but it ain't easy. -- Simba
    2. Re:Both sides are bad... by witherstaff · · Score: 1

      If the Rep's gain the house Upton (R-Mi) will become chair of the house telecommunications subcommittee. He's anti-net neutrality and also takes in a lot of money from Telcos. (AT&T Inc $93,600). But yeah, that's since '89 so he has been consistent.

  23. Slightly unrelated but... by Danieljury3 · · Score: 1

    Did anyone else see BFF in the summary and immediately think of the "Bernard and Felix Foundation" corporation from armored core 4 instead of whatever the alternative meaning may be?

  24. Title misleading? by kgwilliam · · Score: 2, Interesting

    What's up with the title of this post? "Politics: House Democrats Shelve Net Neutrality" sure make it sound like the poster is trying to imply that Democrats were at fault for this bill failing. But the summary and TFA indicate that it was Republicans who blocked efforts to move this bill forward.

    1. Re:Title misleading? by StopKoolaidPoliticsT · · Score: 1

      The House is split 253 (Dems) to 178 (Reps), giving the Democrats a 75 vote advantage. EVERY vote the House does is controlled by a simply majority (there is no filibuster like in the Senate), meaning all you need is 218 votes to pass anything. The Democrats could afford to lose 35 of their members' votes and still pass it... yet, you're sitting there blaming the Republicans. Partisan much?

      The GOP has absolutely no power in the House... none. The reason why NN was tabled BY THE DEMOCRATS, is because the term has a different meaning to everyone that uses it (some people mean that it implies no shaping or throttling can be done at all, some think it means that you can throttle and shape, others think it means that it'll give the government censorship powers, etc and some think that it'll be good for consumers, some think it'll be bad for consumers, some think it'll be good for the industry and some think it'll be bad). Further, the bill was so full of loopholes and compromises, it wasn't about just NN, it had dozens or even hundreds of unintended consequences in it that had yet to be fixed. There was even a group of 72 Dems that wrote to the FCC just about a year ago about some deep concerns about NN. But, don't let that get in the way of your "must be the GOP" bias either... I bet it's all Bush's fault.

      --
      Stop Koolaid Politics
    2. Re:Title misleading? by kgwilliam · · Score: 1

      yet, you're sitting there blaming the Republicans. Partisan much?

      I am not blaming Republicans. I simply stated that both the summary and the article indicated that it was the Republican leader who didn't want to work on the bill, but the title implied that the Democrats dropped it. I was merely asking why. Jump to conclusions much?

      Personally, I am very middle of the road and I don't have a "must be the GOP" bias. GOP does some things right and some things wrong, as do the Dems. But thank you for the additional information about the issue as it does help explain why the bill didn't move forward.

  25. Re:Run away! Run away! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Greedy asshole. I would give $2000 more to be 'burdened' with that tax bracket. Like about 75% of Americans, I make less than that.

    Why don't you WORK for it instead of expecting it to be GIVEN to you?

    No one but YOU is stopping you from improving yourself.

    And calling someone who who wants to keep the fruits of their labors a "greedy asshole" just demonstrates what a petty, jealous, infantile, GIMMEEE GIMMMEEE GIMMMEEE jackass you are.

  26. I second that-- parent post by bussdriver · · Score: 1

    While the democrats are clearly better on a range of issues at certain times in the nations history and are quite easily the better of the two parties overall (they are the oldest for a reason) it becomes difficult to make generalized statements about them over time. Even my statement, the parties changed so much long ago that its almost like they swapped names.

    Right now, on most any issue of importance which conflicts with the corporate powers, the democrats are just putting up an act. -both working for the same master but with a different act. Because the democrats have to sell themselves as opposing some of these forces, they will throw out a bone or two while still licking the boots of their corporate masters. Slight difference, I often think its worse to appease each side with weak measures and flip who is "in power" every few years to keep the public distracted and just placated enough to be inactive.

    There are a few good ones in each, but more on the democrat side-- not that it matters who has more decent reps because its STILL a minority. BTW, the GOP is not tolerant of decent and hasn't been for some time, they have just gone off the deep end as far as their purging in the last 15 years. So a decent one has less chance in the GOP these days.

    Then you have the moves made by corrupt democrats and nearly all republicans to increase corp/bank influences over them. From the Nixon years to the K street 90s to compromises in McCain/Feingold campaign reform - all increased corp power over them; mostly dems. The latter one undermined union influence over the dems and that vacuum was filled by corps (who's job is not to represent voters, unlike the unions; regardless of "your" beliefs of that concept.)

    Net neutrality SHOULD have had an easy time in the HOUSE; clearly the majority fears the loss of MONEY at this time-- the only shot it had was in 2009 and now thanks to the crooks in the S. Court it won't have that chance again.

    Then we have the pragmatists... Those who give in to corruption so they do not get crushed with the excuse that they can only pick so many fights and must give in on all the others. Many "honest" people faced with the reality of the situation would cave in and I suspect that over time would slowly become corrupted as well as shorten their list of principles they won't compromise. (Unless, they never make such compromises, like Ron Paul.) You should understand this unless people refer to you as unreasonable. I also find the older people are the more ways they have to rationalize their actions, including convincing themselves (aka lying to themselves.)

  27. Re:Net Neutrality is not always about Net Neutrali by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Absolutely. See decline in rape and pillage, slavery, extortion and murder. Damned government. Why, just the other day I WASN'T invaded. Stupid government army.

    Seriously, how stupid are you?

  28. Re:Run away! Run away! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Then maybe you should work a little harder to make it into that tax bracket. Whiny bitch.

  29. Re:No net neutrality for YOU! by mcgrew · · Score: 1

    From the AP (via Yahoo) (emphasis mine): "House Commerce Committee Chairman Henry Waxman, D-Calif., abandoned the effort late Wednesday in the face of Republican opposition to his proposed "network neutrality" rules. Those rules were intended to prevent broadband providers from becoming online gatekeepers by playing favorites with traffic."

    I'm going to piss some people off by saying this, but the Democrats are pussies. Goddamned balless wimps. For Christ's sake, they have a majority in both houses, yet they're so pussified that the minority Republicans can block them. WTF???

    But the phone and cable companies insist they need flexibility to manage network traffic so that high-bandwidth applications don't hog capacity and slow down their systems. They say this is particularly true for wireless networks, which have more bandwidth constraints than wired systems. The communications companies also argue that after spending billions to upgrade their networks for broadband, they need to be able earn a healthy return by offering premium services. Burdensome net neutrality rules, they say, would discourage future investments.

    First they say they don't have the bandwidth, then they say they need a "healthy" (read: windfall) profit from their investments in bandwidth. Which is it? Speak of talking out of both sides of your mouth! Is there anybody less honest than a corporate mouthpiece? I have more respect for a crackhead than these evil assholes. At least you know the crackhead is lying when he says he wants twenty bucks "for a prescription".

    And the thing is, from the AP story, it's more about Net Neutrality for wireless customers than wired customers. This makes no sense whatever. I have a plethora of wireless choices; competetion makes Net Neutrality Regs completely unnecessary for wireless providers. On the other hand, I and most other people have only one "choice" for wired broadband -- in my case, Comcast. Others have other monopoly providers, but almost all of them are monopolies.

    ALL MONOPOLIES NEED HEAVY REGULATION! Where there is a lot of competetion, the free market keeps things in check in most cases. But when there is little or no competetion, the government needs to step in.

    Waxman's proposal, in part, fell victim to today's political climate, with Republicans hoping to rack up gains in the upcoming midterm elections apparently unwilling to help Democrats make progress on such a contentious issue. With an anti-government, anti-regulation sentiment sweeping the nation -- and boosting Tea Party candidates -- Republicans also were reluctant to support a proposal that opponents equate to regulating the Internet.

    Contentious? Huh? The only contention is between giants like Google and Time Warner. Net neutrality is a boon for anyone wanting to USE the internet.

    The anti-government sentiment comes from the fact that government (neither major party) has done Jack Schitt for the average working stiff while bending over backwards for sociopaths like Charles and David Koch, who are according to the Jim Hightower article linked, behind the tea party astroturfing movement.

    "Opponents who equate" net neutrality "to regulating the Internet" are disingenuous at best. This doesn't "regulate the internet", it regulates the monopolies who deliver the unregulated internet to your computer.

    If it comes between the goverment regulating the providers and the providers regulating the internet, I'll take government regulation any day.
    --------
    Mods, please read the guidelines.

  30. Re:Run away! Run away! by sarhjinian · · Score: 4, Insightful

    No, what he's saying is that if you make >$75K and you're whining about being asked to contribute +$2K, then you perhaps need a little more critical perspective because, get this, you're already quite rich in relative terms.

    He's not expecting to be given extra earnings, he's saying you should count yourself lucky that you are making more, rather than making $40K or less instead of expecting sympathy from the majority of society because you're so hard done-by. As a more wealthy person you, by default, use and benefit more from society, so you, as the the more wealthy person, should foot more of the bill for it.

    Don't like it? Want to keep all your money? As tired a cliche as it is, perhaps you should move the Somalia? That way you'll only ever have to pay for your own needs, such as the private police force you'll require to maintain the law and order that allows you to keep the money you make.

    --
    --srj/mmv
  31. Very insightful: mod parent up by davide+marney · · Score: 1

    The way the government sees it, they are the public, representatively, so when they negotiate with Big Content, they're really negotiating for me and you. Of course, that's not the way the public sees it. Only 11% of the people trust Congress. They see Big Govt more as an adversary, like Big Content.

    It would be better if the government simply set rules that apply to everyone equally, and for the benefit of everyone, equally. Anything less, and you are picking winners and losers. To do that, they don't need to "negotiate" with individual parties at all.

    --
    "We receive as friendly that which agrees with, we resist with dislike that which opposes us" - Faraday
  32. Re:Run away! Run away! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    No, what he's saying is that if you make >$75K and you're whining about being asked to contribute +$2K, then you perhaps need a little more critical perspective because, get this, you're already quite rich in relative terms.

    Which is why he used the term "greedy asshole".

    And what nether region of delusions do you pull "contribute +$2K" from? There's no "contribute" involved. The government TAKES it under threat of violence.

    He's not expecting to be given extra earnings, he's saying you should count yourself lucky that you are making more, rather than making $40K or less instead of expecting sympathy from the majority of society because you're so hard done-by.

    Yeah, calling people who make more money then you and who don't agree with you about appropriate levels of taxation "greedy assholes" is a way of calling me "lucky" - as if I'm "lucky" to have WORKED MY ASS OFF to be successful.

    Calling people making more money "greedy assholes" is a class-warfare attack on success and an implicit call for wealth redistribution because it attacks the very right successful people have to the fruits of their labors.

    So quit justifying class warfare and couching it in more polite terms.

    What a load of pie-in-the-sky CRAP you've posted.

    As a more wealthy person you, by default, use and benefit more from society,

    Riiight. I'm getting literally thousands and thousands of dollars a month more benefits from "society" than someone living in subsidized housing getting food stamps and "free" health care does.

    Sure I am.

    What planet are you living on?

    so you, as the the more wealthy person, should foot more of the bill for it.

    Oh, I do. I sure as shit do.

    Don't like it? Want to keep all your money? As tired a cliche as it is, perhaps you should move the Somalia? That way you'll only ever have to pay for your own needs, such as the private police force you'll require to maintain the law and order that allows you to keep the money you make.

    Straw man much? Besides, if you want "free" health care, move to Canada. You know, the place where provincial leaders fly to Miami, FL, US of A for heart surgery because health care in Canada is so great.

    Or, instead of putting up stupid strawmen, like many millions of others are about to do in about a month I could vote AGAINST a party that has run such huge deficits through out-of-control profligate spending that a mere two months of the Obama/Pelosi/Reid deficits could be used to pay for the entire decade of wars in Afghanistan and Iraq,

    I could vote AGAINST a party whose wet-behind-the-ears naif supporters call government-forced taxation "contributions".

    I could vote AGAINST a party too chicken-shit to actually vote on a $700 billion tax increase.

    I could vote AGAINST a party that uses racist anti-immigrant FUD to defend the sinecure of a Senate seat for a California liberal.

    I could vote AGAINST a party with a record of utter FAILURE over the past two years - so much failure and lack of ideas that all they can do is conduct ad hominem attacks on opponents who don't want the government to TAKE hundreds of billions of dollars a month from everyone to "stimulate" an economy that's failed because of the asinine policy decisions they've made.

  33. Quid Pro Quo by ThatsNotPudding · · Score: 1

    This is AT&Ts (et al) reward for breaking the wiretapping laws on behalf of the NSA.

  34. not worried about blocking, worried about slowdown by Chirs · · Score: 1

    The main problem scenario that I see is the big ISPs introducing their own video service and giving it priority over Youtube traffic. Or introducing their own videoconferencing software and giving it priority over skype.

    The issue for me is not content-based blocking, but rather ISPs wanting to extort more money for services---"gee, nice app you've got there, it'd be a shame if it got slowed down. You know, for a bit of money we can make sure that doesn't happen..."

  35. Re:Run away! Run away! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    People in my pay range ($70-95K) are looking at Federal tax increases of over $2,000.

    Even after you figure in the increased tax, your take-home pay is STILL double my (pretax) annual salary -- and I'm well above the median income line for the U.S.

    My heart bleeds for you, it really does.

  36. Re:Run away! Run away! by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

    "You're rich enough already" is not a valid argument for tax hikes. The only valid argument is "we absolutely need this and this done, and we don't have anywhere else to take the money from".

  37. You, sir, are a fool. by Moryath · · Score: 1

    I'm sorry, what? In what conceivable way are you kept in slavery?

    What, precisely, would you call a class of people who are denied a real education, stuffed into ghettos and barrios, and forced into lives full of working dead-end jobs or languishing on public assistance in "exchange" for the guarantee that they will vote for the political party that the slave-masters tell them to vote for?

    How have they lied about improving education?

    Despite all the money put into education over the years, has even one Democrat program done anything but spend more money with no repeatable results on any appreciable scale? NO. Even the "stellar magnet schools" and "stellar charter schools" work well for about 5 years before sliding back down into the toilet.

    So, I'm confused. You think it's ok to have racially based attacks on people? Or maybe its attacks on gay people that you are ok with?

    I don't agree that attacks on anyone are a good idea. But neither do I believe that the punishment should be any different whether you attacked someone because of their skin color, or their sexual preference, or the fact that they were your competition in a drug gang, or because they slept with your wife, or because you wanted to steal their car, or any other reason someone would have to do violence to another human being.

    It's the ACT that is to be punished, not the thought. When we start regulating thought, we slide into a very, very, very bad place.

    Bush and Reagan have been the biggest contributors to the national debt.

    Bush and Reagan's major debt contributions come from times when DEMOCRATS HELD THE CONGRESS. Remember, you idiot, it is the CONGRESS that makes the budget and controls the purse strings - all the President gets is an up-or-down, veto/pass vote.

    It would be different if we had line-item veto, but it's not. Reagan passed the budgets he passed that came from DEMOCRATS, because the alternative was to shut down the government. Clinton DID shut down the government because he wanted MORE spending. Bush passed the crap that Pelosi and Reid handed him rather than shut down the government.

    Look closely at this graph I am about to link:
    http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/downchart_gs.php?year=1900_2010&view=1&expand=&units=p&fy=fy11&chart=G0-fed&bar=0&stack=1&size=l&title=US%20Federal%20Deficit%20As%20Percent%20Of%20GDP&state=US&color=c&local=s

    Pay attention. Not just to who was president, but go year by year. What do we find? The correlation in debt increases is not by who was President, but by WHO CONTROLLED THE CONGRESS. This is not a surprise: Constitutionally, CONGRESS WRITES THE BUDGET.

    Under Reagan, through Bush, and - here's the important part - THROUGH THE FIRST TWO YEARS OF CLINTON WHEN THE DEMOCRATS CONTROLLED CONGRESS - the debt went up. Only when the Republicans took control of the purse strings did that trend reverse.

    Likewise, where is the large spike in debt during the years of Bush II? That's right - 2006-2008 WHEN THE DEMOCRATS TOOK CONGRESS. And the trend continues through Obama.

    If you think you can blame any President for the budget, you're a fool. He's the last line of defense, and a pretty fucking weak one absent a line-item veto. When you want to know who fucked us over and increased the debt, you need to look at the Congressional leadership instead!

    Checks and balances are not there to prevent a dominant ideology.

    Again, you are a fool. Checks and balances are there to counteract ambition with ambition, counteract greed with greed, counteract power with power. The whole point is to stop things that should not be going on. If your entire government is m

    1. Re:You, sir, are a fool. by JoesRagingBileDuct · · Score: 1

      I'm sorry, what? In what conceivable way are you kept in slavery?

      What, precisely, would you call a class of people who are denied a real education, stuffed into ghettos and barrios, and forced into lives full of working dead-end jobs or languishing on public assistance in "exchange" for the guarantee that they will vote for the political party that the slave-masters tell them to vote for?

      First of all, you are simply asserting that taxes cause these problems without offering any proof. Secondly, there is no reason to believe that taxes are the cause of any of these problems. It is far more plausible that rising income inequality is the cause by denying the poor a large enough share of wealth to get out of their situation. A cause more easily solved by a more progressive tax system that actually addresses that problem rather than a no-tax system that helps no one with anything. You have also completely left out both an alternate way of getting police etc other than taxes nor can you point out a tax-less government, or a government of any kind, that does not have a poverty issue. In fact, governments with more progressive tax systems tend to have higher quality of living standards.

      How have they lied about improving education?

      Despite all the money put into education over the years, has even one Democrat program done anything but spend more money with no repeatable results on any appreciable scale? NO. Even the "stellar magnet schools" and "stellar charter schools" work well for about 5 years before sliding back down into the toilet.

      Yet, you have completely failed to demonstrate how anyone lied about anything. You just say "schools suck". The biggest relationship to school suckage is how much which tends to vary with the amount of wealth in the school district. Please point me to some statistics on how much more money schools are getting per capita in real dollars between now and 50 years ago. Not to mention that you have given no alternative whatsoever.

      So, I'm confused. You think it's ok to have racially based attacks on people? Or maybe its attacks on gay people that you are ok with?

      I don't agree that attacks on anyone are a good idea. But neither do I believe that the punishment should be any different whether you attacked someone because of their skin color, or their sexual preference, or the fact that they were your competition in a drug gang, or because they slept with your wife, or because you wanted to steal their car, or any other reason someone would have to do violence to another human being.

      It's the ACT that is to be punished, not the thought. When we start regulating thought, we slide into a very, very, very bad place.

      The ACT IS what is being punished. You do not go to jail for thinking or even talking about what would be a hate crime. Only when you actually commit a physical crime do you get jailed and punished. You don't seem to have any idea what thought crime is. By your logic we should not give harsher sentencing to premeditated murder than we do to a "crime of passion" since the only difference is the thought that goes into it.

      Bush and Reagan have been the biggest contributors to the national debt.

      Bush and Reagan's major debt contributions come from times when DEMOCRATS HELD THE CONGRESS. Remember, you idiot, it is the CONGRESS that makes the budget and controls the purse strings - all the President gets is an up-or-down, veto/pass vote.

      I'm moving this here so I don't have to repeat myself.

      Under Reagan, through Bush, and - here's the important part - THROUGH THE FIRST TWO YEARS OF CLINTON WHEN THE DEMOCRATS CONTROLLED CONGRESS - the debt went up. Only when the Republicans took control of the purse strings did that trend reverse.

      You are just plain wrong. The '92 deficit (Bush) was $399B, the '93 defi

  38. Re:not worried about blocking, worried about slowd by TheSync · · Score: 1

    The main problem scenario that I see is the big ISPs introducing their own video service and giving it priority over Youtube traffic.

    Why don't you stop wasting our time until this actually happens...

  39. Re:Run away! Run away! by sarhjinian · · Score: 1

    Straw man much? Besides, if you want "free" health care, move to Canada. You know, the place where provincial leaders fly to Miami, FL, US of A for heart surgery because health care in Canada is so great.

    No time to address the whole post, but this got me as I actually live in Canada. And yes, rich people here go to the US because they can jump the queue, just as rich people can anywhere.

    Tell me, where do poor and middle-class Americans without coverage go again? Can they go to Canada?

    --
    --srj/mmv
  40. Re:Run away! Run away! by mcgrew · · Score: 1

    What newspapers are you reading? The ones I've read say that the Dems want to keep the present tax structure for singles making less than $200k/yr or couples making <$250k/yr while raising folks with earnings above those levels' taxes to pre-Bush levels. Yours will remain the same, just like mine.

    My problem with it is that a person who works for $75k/yr pays higher taxes than someone who "earns" $75k/yr playing the stock market. You pay income tax, he pays capital gains tax, and capital gains tax is lower than income tax.

    Thank you, Ronnie, for making me pay more in tax than the rich bastards who got my hours cut because of the takeover orgy your capital gains cuts engendered.

  41. No Difference by darthdavid · · Score: 1

    Republicans-Fuck you over directly. Sell your ass to the corporations and then let the Jesus freaks tell you what you can do with it.

    Democrats-Pretend that they're going to do something helpful. Roll over and die or, at best, start prevaricating at the slightest hint of an opportunity to actually do so.

    Turns out that when it costs millions upon millions of dollars to get elected to any position that's even moderately important and everyone is sponsored by the same corporations that the only differences in policy will come down into what demographic a given party has tricked into giving a shit about them (and even then only insofar as it doesn't cut into anyone's profits). Wouldn't want to put a stop to the -bribes- campaign donations after all...

  42. Re:Run away! Run away! by mrsquid0 · · Score: 1

    If you are making more than $70,000 year in the US you are making well above the median income. The median individual income in the US is a bout $26,000 (http://pubdb3.census.gov/macro/032006/perinc/new02_001.htm).

    --
    Just because you are paranoid does not mean that no-one is out to get you.
  43. Re:Run away! Run away! by mrsquid0 · · Score: 1

    Which is the situation that the US is in thanks to decades of financial mismanagement. At some point this country needs to have a grown-up discussion of taxation and how the public intends to pay for the lifestyle that it enjoys. Sooner or later taxes are going to have to go up or our standard of living is going to go down.

    --
    Just because you are paranoid does not mean that no-one is out to get you.
  44. Re:Run away! Run away! by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

    At some point this country needs to have a grown-up discussion of taxation and how the public intends to pay for the lifestyle that it enjoys.

    It makes sense, but it has to come from both directions. As it is, it's both citizens dismissing any new tax outright, but it's also politicians proposing new taxes on anything and everything to pay for their pet projects that aren't all that useful on the grand scale. Given the prevalence of the latter, it is clear where the former attitude comes from - if 90% of all new tax proposals are nonsensical, people will just dismiss all of them out of hand.

  45. Spineless politicians by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The democrats, with a clear majority in both houses and the presidency don't shelve anything because of "republican opposition". They can ram anything through that they want right now.

    I suspect the internet will replace cable and we'll all be paying for web access just like we pay for cable now. The only thing free will be personal blogs and company sales outlets.