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Dutch Hotels Must Register As ISPs

hankwang writes "The Dutch telecommunications authority OPTA has announced that Dutch hotels must register as internet providers (original version, in Dutch) because that is what they formally are, according to Dutch laws. It is well possible that once hotels are officially internet providers, they will also have to abide by the European regulations on data retention and make efforts to link email headers and other data traffic to individual hotel guests. Could this also happen in other European countries? This is probably not likely to lead to a more widespread adoption of free WiFi services in hotels."

152 comments

  1. Not fully correct by santax · · Score: 4, Informative

    The OPTA has said that they are not sure yet if the hotels are ISP's. They are still investigating this and I think that is the reason they have send some letters out. In order to get a trial so it will become clear what an ISP is. In the Netherlands everyone who offers public access to internet or other telecomservices has to deal with the OPTA. It's also the organisation that puts fines on spamming etc. Our telecom watchhound in short.

    1. Re:Not fully correct by shoehornjob · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I'm sure the hotels could fight the ruling. They have many things going for them such as....they're a hotel damnit. How fucking stupid is this? I assume no other ISP in the country provides living quarters and a complimentary breakfast bar. Not to mention the internet service does not originate with them. They are simply a bulk account of the TRUE ISP. I thought they only dreamed up stupid shit like that in the USA.

      --
      "We are just a war away from Amerikastan. When god vs god the undoing of man." Dave Mustaine
    2. Re:Not fully correct by mcrbids · · Score: 3, Insightful

      This is probably not likely to lead to a more widespread adoption of free WiFi services in hotels.

      Now, since when is it in the core competence of a hotel to provide IT services?

      Never.

      Sure, have it available, provide it as a service to guests, but the hotels themselves don't offer the service, they outsource. Just like they do with the water, telephones, power, and everything else. If you actually LOOK at the default home page that your average hotel provides, you'll find a logo in the corner someplace indicating who the real service provider is. Hint: it's never the hotel unless it's some ratty shathole where the owner tries to save a few bucks by buying a couple of routers at the local Best Buy and sneaking a consumer DSL line.

      In any real sense, this will have almost no effect on hotels with 3 or more stars. It might have some impact on the cheap independents.

      --
      I have no problem with your religion until you decide it's reason to deprive others of the truth.
    3. Re:Not fully correct by dgatwood · · Score: 2, Insightful

      On the other hand, in my experience, the hotels with the DSL line and a Netgear base station tend to have more reliable service (albeit slower) than those unholy captive-portal-based services.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    4. Re:Not fully correct by Fluffeh · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The OPTA has said that they are not sure yet if the hotels are ISP's.

      I'm sure the hotels could fight the ruling.

      What about all the other places that provide some form of WIFI? Cafe's? Libraries? Surely a cafe owner doesn't have to go through the same messing about that an ISP would? How would they afford all the tech know-how to be able to keep logs and bits of everyone who wanders into their business and asks for a latte while holding a laptop?

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      Moved to http://soylentnews.org/. You are invited to join us too!
    5. Re:Not fully correct by icebike · · Score: 1

      You are spot on, of course.
      Its not even a fringe competency, any more than stocking the mini-bar makes them competent bar tenders.

      The problem here is that hotels, especially those with wifi have no method of determining which room is actually talking on a wifi router at any given time, without issuing individual passwords for each user, perhaps each device. Big chains may have that, but most small ones hang a router on each floor and call it good.

      The article speaks to "pen register" data, not necessarily content, but the mere fact they don't seem worried about that suggests they have compromised SSL a long time ago.

      Why do governments thing they have to snoop into every email and listen to every word between citizens? Why do we keep electing these fools?

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    6. Re:Not fully correct by santax · · Score: 1

      Sure they can... and I think that is what the OPTA wants. Normally this organization is very in favor of consumers etc. Nothing bad to say about them really. So that's why I think the OPTA noticed a flaw in the law and wants to hear a court ruling about it. Not to 'punish' the hotels. I really believe they just want to know for sure what an ISP is for the Dutch law. Looking forward to see this evolve though. Could go either way.

    7. Re:Not fully correct by TheLink · · Score: 1

      How would they afford all the tech know-how to be able to keep logs and bits of everyone who wanders into their business and asks for a latte while holding a laptop?

      By making users pay for it? e.g. no more free WiFi?

      Unless of course there's a clause which says that if hotels provide free internet access then they are not ISPs - since they are not charging for internet access.

      In which case it's not so bad news for the users, but not so good for those providing systems to hotels for "expensive internet" (like a previous employer of mine).

      --
    8. Re:Not fully correct by Dunbal · · Score: 1

      In the Netherlands everyone who offers public access

            But hotel wi-fi is for HOTEL GUESTS, not the "public".

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    9. Re:Not fully correct by cgenman · · Score: 1

      In Italian hotels, even free users are given a unique login / password combination, such that all data they generate can be tracked back to them.

      The Dutch doesn't seem like such a huge step.

    10. Re:Not fully correct by santax · · Score: 2, Interesting

      That is the argument the hotels are using now indeed. Don't have to convince me ;) Just being the messenger here :D

    11. Re:Not fully correct by rtb61 · · Score: 1

      Stick to the persnicketiness of the law. Hotels simply need to say they are not providing internet services their ISP is providing internet services via remote hardware. So it simply means ISPs need to slightly alter their provision of services to hotels. Perhaps a remote monitored and controlled router at Hotels.

      Of course everyone knows what it is all about, monitoring the populaces use of internet services, can't have naughty executives, holiday makers and foreigners looking at stuff they shouldn't be at hotels. So all about reporting and records and installing monitoring devices in hotels before suspects even arrive (suspects being everyone that is not them, them of course being the professionally paranoid).

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    12. Re:Not fully correct by kainosnous · · Score: 1

      I think that you've summed it up. The purpose for any of this comes down to the government wanting more. In this case, I think it's the government wanting more control of personal data. Of course, it could just be for more money in the way of an ISP fee. IMHO, the government should stay out of such things entirely.

      --
      There are 10 commandments: 01)Thou shalt love the Lord Thy God 10)Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.Matt22:34-40
    13. Re:Not fully correct by MichaelSmith · · Score: 3, Funny

      Why do we keep electing these fools?

      Because people who are not fools have better things to do with their time.

    14. Re:Not fully correct by znerk · · Score: 1

      The problem here is that hotels, especially those with wifi have no method of determining which room is actually talking on a wifi router at any given time, without issuing individual passwords for each user, perhaps each device. Big chains may have that, but most small ones hang a router on each floor and call it good.

      Actually, some hotels do issue passwords, in the form of having to enter your username (room number) and password (last name of guest in that room) before allowing access.

      --
      This work is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution 3.0 Unported License.
    15. Re:Not fully correct by YeeHaW_Jelte · · Score: 4, Informative

      Parent is correct, article summary is very imprecise ... slow news day?

      Someone, not mentioned explicitely in the article, complained to the OPTA, saying that hotels should be considered ISPs. OPTA considered the wording of the laws they are enforcing and said ' yeah, they might be right ' and has now summoned a few hotels to register as ISP's, to see where this leads.

      Obviously, the law is poorly worded and this is a side effect nobody foresaw or intended. This will be probably be fixed, if even necessary.

      Please stop with all the efforts to make every little hickup in the law system armaggedon for freedom, please. It's cheap and sensationalist.

      --

      ---
      "The chances of a demonic possession spreading are remote -- relax."
    16. Re:Not fully correct by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In Italy we have a post 9/11 law that needs everyone with a free wi-fi to gather information (id card) of every connected person. Hotels, pubs, libraries, etc. are all affected.

    17. Re:Not fully correct by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1

      101-Smith: Fail.
      102-Smith: Fail
      ...

    18. Re:Not fully correct by hairyfeet · · Score: 1

      And I would add that I don't know if it is the same there, here in the USA we get a choice of "corporate ass kissing big brother loving rich asshole" A or B, so voting on anything more than the local level has pretty much become a joke. Hell they don't even pretend to give a shit about the average folks anymore, see the crazy DMCA and copyright laws or the repubs standing up and demanding continued tax breaks for the top 3%, which have been making out like bandits for ages. News flash for those repubs that are always talking about "the golden years" ala the 50s? IIRC the tax rate on the top was something like 70%+. It is actually simple math folks...too much in the hands of too few leads to broken markets via price fixing and cartels, it leads to broken laws via bribery, it leads to broken justice based on "he who has the most gold wins". I bet if we went back to those 70%+ tax rates on the top we wouldn't see so much market rigging and bubble blowing, because the incentive to hoard wealth simply wouldn't be there.

      As for TFA, it is kinda sad that so many governments are looking at Big Brother as a fricking how to book. Just remember next time they say they need some intrusion to "protect you from (insert terrorists or kiddie fiddlers)" it is TOTAL bullshit. Laws will ALWAYS be abused, full stop. That is why we must ALWAYS fight abuses any way we can, even when the one being abused is from a bunch we don't like, because laws used on bad guys today WILL be used on dissenters tomorrow.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    19. Re:Not fully correct by mcvos · · Score: 1

      Not to mention the internet service does not originate with them. They are simply a bulk account of the TRUE ISP.

      That's exactly what I thought. Hotels don't have their own peering connection, do they? They're simply a customer of an ISP, and that ISP needs to do all the required data retention crap already.

      Speaking of data retention, do they really log my email? Time to figure out how to encrypt my IMAP communication. (Maybe it's encrypted already, but I'd like to be sure.)

    20. Re:Not fully correct by houghi · · Score: 2, Insightful

      but the hotels themselves don't offer the service, they outsource

      Just because you outsource does not mean you don't have any responsibility anymore. It could well be that they can sue the outsource partner if they get fined, but they will get fined.

      And isn't it terrible that the more expensive hotels would have no effect, while the bed&breakfast places and youth hostels will go belly-up because they can't afford it and customers still demand it?

      The hotels (and other places that offer Internet connections, like railways, bars and your local hacker) will then need to start paying for the cost of having all this data gathering. That will mean no more free Internet at any place and all this because some terrorist might rape some children.

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    21. Re:Not fully correct by Lennie · · Score: 1

      "Not to mention the internet service does not originate with them."

      So define the internet and where does it originate, then ?

      --
      New things are always on the horizon
    22. Re:Not fully correct by JaredOfEuropa · · Score: 2, Insightful

      What about all the other places that provide some form of WIFI? Cafe's? Libraries? Surely a cafe owner doesn't have to go through the same messing about that an ISP would?

      Maybe that is exactly what they are after. Proper ISPs are already required to retain a bunch of info and data about their clients so that internet wiretaps can be traced back to individual subscribers. But what use is that if any criminal can grab a netbook and wander into a hotel or bar to go online anonymously? My guess is that if this notion holds up in court, hotels will be required to hand out individual Wifi access keys rather than provide a single one to all of its guests. What other point would there be in requiring the hotel to retain internet traffic that is already retained at the hotel's ISP?

      And what about bars, cafe... perhaps they will outlaw public WiFi at some point. I don't think they actually will go that far, but it would not surprise me in the least, and I am certain a proposal to that effect will comet to table in parliament at some point in the near future. Remember, this is the Netherlands, a country that does more wiretapping than the rest of Europe combined. A country that now allows city mayors to issue search warrants without aproval from a judge and even without any prior suspicion of criminal activity. A country that is slowly making sure that we are never anonymous anywhere.

      Dutch people have a deep, deep trust in their government. Perhaps it is because that same government "allows" us more freedoms than most other countries enjoy. When the government then asks "Papieren bitte!", most people shrug and state "I have nothing to hide". But it takes a good many turns of the thumbscrews before you'll feel the clamps squeezing your thumbs, and a few more turns before it starts to hurt. But by then it's too late to pull your thumb out of the device.

      --
      If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
    23. Re:Not fully correct by Z00L00K · · Score: 1

      And now when there are protocols like SMTPS and also TLS on SMTP as well as IMAPS and POP3S the loggings will only provide information that a certain IP was connected to a specific mail server and no indication at all of what the mail headers were.

      Those of us working in tech also knows that the precision of the logs may not be the best. Clocks between servers may drift unless NTP is used (and not everyone configures that), logging info for DHCP may be incomplete, and many network cards offers the ability to change the MAC address rendering the ability to match a certain client with a certain action a bit tricky.

      And if the hotels are going to have to register themselves as ISP:s will they also need to be telecom operators? Hotels have provided phone service to their guests for decades now.

      --
      If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker would destroy civilization.
    24. Re:Not fully correct by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Parent is correct, article summary is very imprecise ... slow news day?

      No. Look at the editor.

    25. Re:Not fully correct by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Parent is correct, article summary is very imprecise ... slow news day?

      No, Slashdot...

    26. Re:Not fully correct by servies · · Score: 1

      A country that now allows city mayors to issue search warrants without aproval from a judge and even without any prior suspicion of criminal activity. A country that is slowly making sure that we are never anonymous anywhere.

      Nonsense, in the Netherlands a search warrent is not issued by the city mayor...

      A country that is slowly making sure that we are never anonymous anywhere.

      As is every other country in the world if it's citizens have any freedom left...

    27. Re:Not fully correct by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Precisely what I was thinking. After some of the portals I've used (including a real fun one in Panama) I positively long for an AP and a modem in the corner.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    28. Re:Not fully correct by muckracer · · Score: 1

      > Speaking of data retention, do they really log my email?

      They also read it/search it, forward it to human analysts based on triggers, save it...perhaps for eternity etc.. Granted, it's not the ISP's doing that but other three-letter organizations.

      > Time to figure out how to encrypt my IMAP communication.

      It's not a bad thing to do so, but your ISP (where your mail is) still gets to log everything as before. You'd need an external provider for SSL to make some difference.

      > (Maybe it's encrypted already, but I'd like to be sure.)

      Check your account settings/connection settings. Usually it's through a different port, sometimes even a different mail server/hostname thereof. The use of SSL needs to be explicitly turned on there. Check with your e-mail provider what the settings need to be. It's usually not advertised but available. Make sure to change both incoming and outgoing connections if applicable. Also make sure to change the settings for all devices you might use for that account (laptop, workstation, cell phone etc.).

    29. Re:Not fully correct by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      so how exactly does the ISP do the data retention to insure matching hotel guests' ids to internet activity?

    30. Re:Not fully correct by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      Most hotels have phones they let guests use, so perhaps they are telcos too.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    31. Re:Not fully correct by imakemusic · · Score: 1

      Al Gore: The One True ISP.

      --
      Brain surgery - it's not rocket science!
    32. Re:Not fully correct by muckracer · · Score: 1

      > > Speaking of data retention, do they really log my email?

      > They also read it/search it, forward it to human analysts based on triggers, save it...perhaps for eternity etc..
      > Granted, it's not the ISP's doing that but other three-letter organizations.

      To answer your question a bit more:

      AFAIK, (E-Mail) Providers are forced to save the sender, his login ID and log-on/log-off times, recipients - including CC's and BCC's (both directions), subject line, dates/times of sent and received mail etc.. Basically the headers and then some. It's retained usually for 6 months (ISP saving the logs somewhere). There is no requirement to save the actual e-mail content/body, but may be saved as well.

      Depending on the country it's more or less easy for police etc. to legally get that data (we'll leave the NSA-style spooks out of this, since they read everything anyway regardless of ISP data retention).

      If you want to protect yourself, you need, as mentioned, a separate e-mail provider, preferably in a country without such crap. Then your ISP can't log anything because all they see is SSL traffic.
      Another option is using anonymous remailers, since they are specifically designed to prevent traffic analysis.

    33. Re:Not fully correct by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There can be only one.

    34. Re:Not fully correct by Hatta · · Score: 1

      LOOK at the default home page that your average hotel provides, you'll find a logo in the corner someplace indicating who the real service provider is. Hint: it's never the hotel unless it's some ratty shathole

      So what you're saying is that it's always the hotel?

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    35. Re:Not fully correct by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      These "call to arms" are important, otherwise people might not "do the needful" and fix the law!

      I have an issue in my town where I was cited for having a puddle of water on my pool cover. The reasoning is mosquitoes could be breeding in that puddle. But its October, and rather cold now (35F when I woke up this morning). But the law is the law, and the town filed a CRIMINAL COMPLAINT against me! Can you believe the insanity? A criminal complaint, so water on pool cover ~= murder in their minds.

      You can bet your ass I'm going to do whatever it takes to change this stupid law, at least add something so that it only applies in the summer!

    36. Re:Not fully correct by JaredOfEuropa · · Score: 1

      Oh, they call it something else ("huisbezoek", lit. "house call"), but in many cases people weren't given the opportunity to refuse entry. In some cases where the officials found the occupant absent a few times, they took a crowbar to the door. If such searches are sanctioned by the mayor, I say that he is issuing search warrants, no matter which flowery language they use to dress it up. It is just one of those many cases where the police or prosecutor's office use a method that is not strictly legal yet very, very convenient. Or they find a pretext, like a fire safety inspection, for which they are allowed to enter. But what kind of such inspection also has police, and tax/social security officials tagging along?

      By the way... it's not judges either who issue search warrants in the Netherlands; that power has been taken from them some decades ago, and was given to the state prosecutor. Another example where annoying legal niceties and civil rights have been dopped by the wayside for the sake of convenience. And yes, I do maintain that this attitude is more prevalent in the Netherlands than in comparably civilised countries. It's not because our government can do what it likes to; it is because we cheerfully let them. Because "I have nothing to hide" seems to have become our national motto.

      --
      If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
    37. Re:Not fully correct by ZorinLynx · · Score: 1

      I stayed at a hotel that provided Wifi in an ingenious manner: They put an access point with a directional antenna on a pole about 100 feet from the building, pointing at all the guest room windows. Another similar pole was on the other side.

      The result? All the guest rooms were covered by two access points. This was the most reliable hotel WiFi I've ever used, as pretty much every room had line of sight to the access point, and the "portal page" was just an "I agree to the terms and conditions" and went through a biz class Comcast line.

      Sometimes the rag&tag hack it together yourself solutions work better than the expensive, complicated commercial "official" ways. And users end up happier too.

    38. Re:Not fully correct by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's cheap and sensationalist.

      No, it's Modern Journalism

    39. Re:Not fully correct by shoehornjob · · Score: 1

      So define the internet and where does it originate, then ?

      In this case it is irrelevantwhere it originates. All we need to know is that someone else is providing the signal (idk RF what ever)to the hotel. Any sane court or politician can see that they are paying another comppany to provide them with a service that they make available to their customers. You have to prove that the hotel generates the signal without the help of another entity.

      --
      "We are just a war away from Amerikastan. When god vs god the undoing of man." Dave Mustaine
    40. Re:Not fully correct by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      The Tier 1 providers. Everyone else is a last-mile reseller of Tier 1 services.

    41. Re:Not fully correct by greed · · Score: 1

      Oh gods, I hate those stupid portal systems so so so so so so so so so so much.

      For starters, unless you only use the Web, you have no idea why you've got good Wi-Fi signal and yet nothing is working... because the stupid portal is hijacking all DNS to point to its "yes I know the Internet isn't controlled by Holiday Inn Express" page. And once you get that fixed, you still have to deal with clearing the resulting bogus crap from your DNS cache.

      Then I can't figure out why the stupid thing kept timing out and having me have to re-authenticate. Maybe it's only kept alive by web traffic? What if I don't want to use the web?

      Bah, if I wasn't on U.S. data roam, I'd have just tethered to the 3G network. There's something that just works... at least in my parts of Canada.

      And that's something that hotels have to watch out for: if they make their service bad enough, we'll just use something else. Most people I know don't use the overpriced hotel long distance any more, they just use their cell. As soon as roaming data rates actually make sense, the demand for hotel Wi-Fi will disappear. (Like, the data is actually being sent up to Canada by the 3G network to get to the Big Bad Internet? If that's the case, then sure, the 1000x price for cellular data in the U.S., and 1000000x price in Europe... still doesn't make sense. But it's data--doesn't it hit the Internet locally? Just like my phone calls don't go up to Canada and then back down to the local number, it goes to the local phone system right away.)

    42. Re:Not fully correct by mcvos · · Score: 1

      If you want to protect yourself, you need, as mentioned, a separate e-mail provider, preferably in a country without such crap. Then your ISP can't log anything because all they see is SSL traffic.

      What about running your own mail server? I always wanted to do that anyway.

      The only problem then is of course that SMTP traffic is unencrypted. Or is it? It would make sense if that also had an encrypted as well as an unencrypted version. But even then I can't force people who mail me to use the encrypted version.

    43. Re:Not fully correct by muckracer · · Score: 1

      > What about running your own mail server? I always wanted to do that anyway.

      By all means...go for it. It gives you full control. Of course, you also need to set it up and maintain it to some extent (unless you have somebody do it for you) and, if you lease a server somewhere, pay accordingly. It's not that much though. Ditto for DNS.

      > The only problem then is of course that SMTP traffic is unencrypted. Or is it?

      The definite answer is: it depends :-)
      You can set the MTA up to negotiate the connection settings with the mail server on the other side when sending a mail. Including whether to use TLS (preferred) or SSL.

      > It would make sense if that also had an encrypted as well as an unencrypted version.

      That's exactly how it works:
      Attempt TLS by default...if the other side doesn't support it then go plain-text SMTP.

      > But even then I can't force people who mail me to use the encrypted version.

      If by people you mean the mail server (usually the users have no idea or influence over that part unless they run their own) then you are correct...you are relying on the coolness of the server admin to have it set up like yourself and happily use TLS if possible.

      Am not sure though what you're trying to achieve:
      If you want real e-mail security, you must use actual e-mail encryption. Such as offered by GPG - http://www.gnupg.org/
      Even then, the other person needs to also use it. That tends to be a chicken and egg issue. If you're talking family, girlfriend etc. you might simply install it for them and show them how to use it. That part even less technical people can deal with...the setup not so much. You can still run your own mail server with TLS-support anyway, but see it as icing on the cake, not real security because of above mentioned issues. But every bit helps. :-)

    44. Re:Not fully correct by mcvos · · Score: 1

      It still surprises me that GPG/PGP is still not a standard feature of all mail readers. It seems so obvious.

    45. Re:Not fully correct by muckracer · · Score: 1

      > It still surprises me that GPG/PGP is still not a standard feature of all mail readers. It seems so obvious.

      Tell me about it :-)
      Don't let that hinder you though. For pretty much every MUA some Form of GPG-support is available. Like Thunderbird - Enigmail, Outlook - GPG4Win etc.. Cool MUA's, like Evolution, Kmail etc. have it built-in.
      Worst case scenario is to use GPG via the Clipboard. So you write your e-mail in some editor of your choice, then highlight everything/copy to clipboard and then do the GPG actions there. Various options exist just for that.
      If you're really hard-core, you could also use it via command-line :-) While interesting, especially for learning purposes, it tends to get tedious. So find a better option for the long-run.

    46. Re:Not fully correct by Lennie · · Score: 1

      That is not where it originates.

      It originates at the edge. That is whole point.

      Webservers, mailservers, are all at the edge. The users are too. The users/designers, etc. are the creators.

      The Tier 1 providers (which are less and less relevant) just relay packets.

      That is why I said, define it and tell me where it originates. Because it does not originate from just one point.

      It is all over the place.

      --
      New things are always on the horizon
    47. Re:Not fully correct by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      The Internet originates with the Tier 1 providers. The value originates with the edge. You are confusing the two.

      That is why I said, define it and tell me where it originates.

      Oh I know. You were being a jackass asking a question with the intention of attacking any answer that didn't agree with your opinion because you think your opinion is more valid than any others. I just played the game because your opinion happens to be wrong in this case. If every non-Tier 1 were closed, the Internet would still exist, but with greatly reduced usage and much less value. If you turn off all the Tier 1 providers, then there will be no interconnection, and thus no Internet at all. But then, when you use meaningless words like "originates" you can change the definition to be whatever you want. It could be the US government, Al Gore, UUnet and the like from the early days, Akamai as the largest distributor of content, or, like you seem to insinuate, it's origin is everywhere (which seems to be nonsensical, as you wouldn't say people "originate" from hospitals, but that's your apparent argument).

    48. Re:Not fully correct by Lennie · · Score: 1

      Well, it depends how you look at it.

      In (western) europe everything is so well inter-connected, I think if you shutdown the tier-1 networks in Europe, most ISP's would not have connections problems with anything else in Europe.

      Only the customers who are directly and only connected to the tier-1 providers.

      Atleast in theory. Only if they can handle the extra traffic ofcourse.

      In the US the situation is not that good though.

      --
      New things are always on the horizon
  2. Great ! by ls671 · · Score: 1

    Now, after so many years, I can finally register as an ISP just because I provide a free access point. I already have a data retention scheme in place, only for statistical purposes of course.

    --
    Everything I write is lies, read between the lines.
  3. OH SHIIIIIIIIITTTTTTT!!!!!!!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I have had such an easy ride and I knew it would some day end.

    No doubt the US State Dept and DoD Agencies and CIA will be going through BUT CHECKS on the next round of ops.

    Aaarrrrgggghhhh .... that hurts! Could you use a little vassiline!

    --Toodles

  4. Free country? by fishbowl · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I remember things like this whenever someone criticizes the US and suggests that I move to a free country. Netherlands has often been on that supposed list of "free countries."

    --
    -fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
    1. Re:Free country? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Must be a short list.

    2. Re:Free country? by rolfwind · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Anytime you deal with people, any societal superstructure such as a country, will have downsides and upsides. Europe has never respected freedom of speech to the level the US does, otoh, they are better in healthcare and the like, imo.

      As with anything, it depends what you want in life. Some days, I'd like to move to Antarctica.

    3. Re:Free country? by lemmis_86 · · Score: 1

      Anyone joining the EU is signing off their freedom... Here in Finland, we're not even allowed to have parks with certain wooden-fabrics due to EU regulations, so 5 parks in my home-town have been demolished! EU is nothing but a dictator.

    4. Re:Free country? by noidentity · · Score: 1, Troll

      I always thought these things were to ensure that companies get the same freedom (that is, they are restricted the same amount by government). If ISPs get lots of regulations, then it's only fair that hotels offering WiFi be burdened the same way. It's like when the school bully is only picking on some of the kids, and they argue that he should pick on everyone equally to be fairer.

    5. Re:Free country? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Those regulations are usually only for newly built things. The reason they where torn down an rebuilt, rests purly in your city council's hands.

    6. Re:Free country? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Anyone joining the EU sign off some powers to Brussles, in order to gain freedom from Chinese, American, Russian and Indian influence.

      It is really that simple, either you join the Union or you will over the next years sell your country to foreign interests.

    7. Re:Free country? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >It is really that simple, either you join the Union (i.e. sell your country to foreign interests) or you will over the next years sell your country to foreign interests.

      FTFY

    8. Re:Free country? by YeeHaW_Jelte · · Score: 1

      Well, feel free to stay at home then.

      --

      ---
      "The chances of a demonic possession spreading are remote -- relax."
    9. Re:Free country? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I remember things like this whenever someone criticizes the US and suggests that I move to a free country. Netherlands has often been on that supposed list of "free countries."

      Behind door number 1: having hotels register as ISPs, which would put them at an inconvenience, and probably increase prices on either Internet access at the hotels or the room prices

      Behind door number 2: US health insurance

      You choose.

    10. Re:Free country? by Barryke · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Mind that:
      Option 2 is already implemented. (and i refer to the old US health insurance: its horror when compared to how free countries support their citizens health)
      Option 1 is merely a "test trial" thrown against ten large hotels because OPTA has its job to do.

      On this situation:
      I view this as a protest against a bad law on what makes someone an internet provider. Perhaps a chess move in something that doesn't aim to make Hotels an ISP, but to make it so actual ISP's can't hide behind the same walls (like holes in a vague law) as hotels do. I can't ever imagine hotels beng labeled as ISP's, and i believe everyone (including OPTA and the Hotels) would enjoy knowing what they're supposed to do and what not.

      Disclaimer; i am dutch.

      --
      Hivemind harvest in progress..
    11. Re:Free country? by Carewolf · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I am not sure if they do the same in other EU countries, but in Denmark we just ignore the data retention regulation. It is common for apartments blocks to have their own intranet with shared internet essentially making them ISPs. When the regulation came out a few years ago there was a large panic on how to possibly abide by it. Fortunately all the large ISPs prepared the systems to do it, but never implemented them, the official stanze is: We are not going to implement these systems until forced to, and with no one else following the regulations, no one wants to be the first.

    12. Re:Free country? by Tharsis · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      Could you please explain which particular set of freedoms are required to make a country "free"?
      Every country needs restrictions on freedom, otherwise everybody could do anything, there'd be no crime.
      Whether you can live with those restrictions mostly depends on you and your values.
      But don't forget that a lot of restrictions are desirable. Would you care to live in country where you are allowed to steal?

      You can't throw "freedom" around without explaining what you actually mean. Freedom means different things in different cultures.

    13. Re:Free country? by lordholm · · Score: 1

      The Union does not represent foreign interests for any European state, since the Union represents Europe it represents all members of the Union. This cannot be argued in anyway to be a foreign interest since it is formed by your own state.

      --
      "Civis Europaeus sum!"
    14. Re:Free country? by guruevi · · Score: 1

      Because such regulation is costly. Whenever somebody (usually the local RIAA offices) asks them to provide the logs or comply with the law they say: sure we can, but we'll be out of business in 6 months unless you provide in the equipment. The RIAA doesn't want to provide in the equipment, they're already making a loss on their existing practices. The government doesn't want to provide in the equipment because that would either mean unpopular budget cuts elsewhere (like cutting their version of Medicare or so) or raising taxes (which in most of Europe is already nearing 50% of one's wages to provide for 'free' health care and other social services).

      The only place it is actually feasible to do this is in totalitarian and militaristic countries where these systems are controlled by military agencies, countries where over 4% of the GDP gets spent on military projects.

      --
      Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
    15. Re:Free country? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Could you please explain which particular set of freedoms are required to make a country "free"?

      Any carefully selected list that includes all European countries and Canada but excludes the USA ;)

    16. Re:Free country? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And for the ones that don't know: a Dutch man lives in The Netherlands (Nederland), which is also known as Holland, and we speak Dutch.

      And no: that is not "Deutschland, which is Germany, our neighbours". :D (another Dutch slashdot reader) :).

    17. Re:Free country? by Grumbleduke · · Score: 1

      I am not sure if they do the same in other EU countries, but in Denmark we just ignore the data retention regulation.

      The data retention regulation wasn't encoded into law here in the UK either (the world-leader in defending personal privacy). Instead, it is my understanding that the major ISPs have a "gentleman's agreement" with the Home Office (similar to the one for our Internet censorship scheme) whereby the Government agrees not to order them to retain data if they agree to retain it. As far as I know, most of the smaller service providers completely ignore it.

  5. Clearly the answer is more government intervention by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

    After all, isn't it trendy to hate on libertarians these days?

  6. I wonder... by citoxE · · Score: 1

    I wonder if this will lead to more broader implications once the Mafiaa can't DMCA ISPs into compliance.

  7. WHAT? by tsa · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I read this yesterday on nu.nl and I think it's completely ridiculous. The hotels (and my hospital I found out yesterday, and McDonalds and many many other places) can offer WiFi because they have a deal with a provider. Isn't that enough? I thought the Opta was there for the consumer but now I am not so sure anymore.

    --

    -- Cheers!

    1. Re:WHAT? by c0lo · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I read this yesterday on nu.nl and I think it's completely ridiculous.

      Me too.

      The hotels (and my hospital I found out yesterday, and McDonalds and many many other places) can offer WiFi because they have a deal with a provider. Isn't that enough?

      (tongue-in-cheeck.. or only half-of? Not quite sure yetmyself, but I reckon that's the position of govs in the near future)
      No, it is definitely NOT enough: if you provide transport-service you are an ISP (you do provide some Internet service; nobody says somebody is an ISP if and only if only if it provides email or Web hosting on top of transport services).
      This means every person (organisation or not) that can act as a point-of-control-and-prevention will be, sonner or later, forced to assume all the obligations of an ISP (responsible how their property/service is used - or abused). As the time passes, for govs and such it is more the control and less about taking care of their citizens.
      If one sees as common-sensical that consumers (in the Joe Average category) which let their WiFi router opened are responsible for any nastinies carried over their connection (.e.g. downloaded/uploaded copyrighed music or KP, even if potentially only by piggybacking/wardriving), I don't see why HotSpot providers should not.

      --
      Questions raise, answers kill. Raise questions to stay alive.
    2. Re:WHAT? by tsa · · Score: 1

      It depends on the contract you have with the provider. If I were a hotel or restaurant and I would want to offer WiFi services I would outsource all of it to a provider. I pay a monthly fee and let them install the hardware and make sure everything works, so that I can concentrate on my core business. Then if something happens to the WiFi it's the provider's problem, not mine. If Opta doesn't agree with that we take it to court.

      --

      -- Cheers!

    3. Re:WHAT? by c0lo · · Score: 1

      It depends on the contract you have with the provider.

      If the ISP accepts the outsourcing and the full responsibility for what transits it's network(thus running a "point of presence" in the hotel), I imagine that what you suggest could work... but for sure the ISP's fees won't be small... it's like they'll expect the hotel to pay for N customers, N being the number of rooms even when the rooms are vacant (imagine a block of flats, each appartment having Internet. It doesn't matter for an ISP if the family in one apartment goes in vacation and the respective connection is not used).

      If however, the hotel owns the internal network, then it is probably bound by the contract with the ISP to take responsibility for anything illegal is originated in their network - as a consumer/end-user, I know I am bound. This is also the reason why I don't let my WiFi router opened: I can agree withing the family to a way of life, I can't control however the wardriver.

      --
      Questions raise, answers kill. Raise questions to stay alive.
  8. some hotels use cable likey the same one that tv c by Joe+The+Dragon · · Score: 1

    some hotels use cable likey the same one that tv comes from.

  9. In other news.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Hotels were also found to be cable TV providers, telephone service providers, cell phone service providers, water and electric utility providers, furnishing distributors, and food and beverage distributors and must meet all the requirements and responsibilities of each of those industries.

    1. Re:In other news.. by masterwit · · Score: 1

      Very true news. But someone cannot track me back for the exact water I extracted out of a faucet at 11:00pm to swallow an Advil. Rather they knew water was consumed, perhaps, but not for what purpose. The internet is different because this is a two way flow of information. AC you have a valid point in saying why the legislation likely had ground due to those other industries.

      cheers

      --
      We should start a new Slashdot and return control to the geeks. It actually wouldn't be that hard to get some users to
    2. Re:In other news.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not to mention provider of experiences so for foreign visitors they must abide by the local tourism board who gets to decide more or less everything...

    3. Re:In other news.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Very true news. But someone cannot track me back for the exact water I extracted out of a faucet at 11:00pm to swallow an Advil. Rather they knew water was consumed, perhaps, but not for what purpose.

      But they could if they put in cameras and water meters on every tap, using networked devices to relay the data.

      The internet is different because this is a two way flow of information. AC you have a valid point in saying why the legislation likely had ground due to those other industries.

      cheers

      No, a well managed and highly monitored SMNP/etc based network is like a two way flow of information. A DSL line and an open wifi router it more like a fire hydrant than anything else. Just because it CAN be done for a marginally lower cost with data packets than water droplets doesn't mean it should be done.

      Should a restaurant be able to sell you a burger that has half a gram more (or less) fat than advertised?

      Measuring the fat/protien/soy (for veggie burgers), etc is certainly doable. It would just take a minutes per order once you had a well trained and equipped staff, just like with data.

      Ultimately it is a foolish and counterproductive way to do things, be it for water, soy or data.

    4. Re:In other news.. by masterwit · · Score: 1

      Don't normally reply to AC, but thought why not once... :)

      But they could if they put in cameras and water meters on every tap, using networked devices to relay the data.

      I guess they really could if they wanted...haha

      Although this is unrelated to your argument (I understand your point), restaurants must meet an "average" and even then they are allowed some margin of error. No exacts in grilling a burger when one side of the burner is hotter...The veggie burger analogy, well give the exact ingredients, to measure calories if you are going to be a purest about science, we have to burn it.

      I agree with you that open wifi is not the "highly monitored" system you speak of, and I believe also that just because something can be done, does Not mean it should be done...rather I am saying there is much more personal information involved (for the average-Joe user). I do not believe that this is a good idea but rather what I meant when I said

      you have a valid point in saying why the legislation likely had ground due to those other industries

      was that this was likely along the lines of thought that the politicians had when they pushed this legislation.

      --
      We should start a new Slashdot and return control to the geeks. It actually wouldn't be that hard to get some users to
  10. Utility Provider by ilo.v · · Score: 1

    Of course this makes sense. Didn't you realize that this is the same logic used to justify the long standing practice of classifying hotels as power, water, and sewage utilities, as well as TV broadcasters, farmers, ranchers, etc. What is the difference?

  11. For King and Country by flyingfsck · · Score: 1, Funny

    Hmm, the Netherlands, UK, Denmark, North Korea, Swaziland, Lesotho and a few other coconut states are dictorships with medieval style kings/queens. There may be elections once in a while, but that is just for show...

    --
    Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
    1. Re:For King and Country by santax · · Score: 1

      You have no clue.... seriously. That is complete and utter bullshit what you are saying there. How do I know? I live in the Netherlands. Dictatorship... lol :')

    2. Re:For King and Country by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Haha, what?
      You can say a lot about detoriating freedoms here, but not that we have a medieval style monarchy. The queen has no power.

    3. Re:For King and Country by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I second the "Haha, what?" by the other AC.

      Flaming is never productive. Last time I checked if they were actually

      medieval style kings/queens

      you wouldn't be stupid enough to make that comment unless you'd be taken out by a guy with a pointy stick on a horse.

      It's science, something of which you are completely and utterly devoid of...

    4. Re:For King and Country by captainpanic · · Score: 1

      Hmm, the Netherlands, UK, Denmark, North Korea, Swaziland, Lesotho and a few other coconut states are dictorships with medieval style kings/queens. There may be elections once in a while, but that is just for show...

      You have no clue.... seriously. That is complete and utter bullshit what you are saying there. How do I know? I live in the Netherlands. Dictatorship... lol :')

      I believe that the parent made a joke.

      Joke:
      # a humorous anecdote or remark intended to provoke laughter; "he told a very funny joke"; "he knows a million gags"; "thanks for the laugh"; "he laughed unpleasantly at his own jest"; "even a schoolboy's jape is supposed to have some ascertainable point"
      # jest: activity characterized by good humor
      # tell a joke; speak humorously; "He often jokes even when he appears serious"
      # antic: a ludicrous or grotesque act done for fun and amusement
      # act in a funny or teasing way
      # a triviality not to be taken seriously; "I regarded his campaign for mayor as a joke"

      Source: wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

      I think that the coconuts gave it away. There are no coconut trees in the Netherlands.

    5. Re:For King and Country by santax · · Score: 1

      Actually, there are... on Bonaire and St. Maarten. Parent was trolling IMO has been modded up again since.

    6. Re:For King and Country by toQDuj · · Score: 1

      True, you don't even have a functioning government, let alone a dictatorship

      --
      Every experiment which ends in a big bang is a good experiment.
    7. Re:For King and Country by santax · · Score: 1

      Hey but tomorrow we'll have a... well.. tomorrow we will officially have a new government. Let's leave it at that. Lol.

    8. Re:For King and Country by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're pretty obviously wrong and just want to make a huff of things. The nations listed is enough to see he isn't serious. Personally I barely found the joke mildly amusing but to call it "trolling" is just wrong. I suggest you calm down and forget about it. Its a random comment on the Internet, its not really important is it?

    9. Re:For King and Country by santax · · Score: 1
    10. Re:For King and Country by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hey! How've you been! See you at the voting booth in a couple of weeks :)

    11. Re:For King and Country by santax · · Score: 1

      Let's hope so! :D

    12. Re:For King and Country by toriver · · Score: 1

      "Hey! Government!"

      "I am not a government, but I play one in den Haag."

  12. The hotels can say it's not free but part of the r by Joe+The+Dragon · · Score: 1

    The hotels can say it's not free but part of the room rate / hotel resort fee.

  13. Re:Clearly the answer is more government intervent by ultranova · · Score: 1, Insightful

    After all, isn't it trendy to hate on libertarians these days?

    Libertarians stand for privatized oppression. Most other parties stand for government-supplied oppression. Does anyone actually stand for freedom nowadays?

    --

    Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

  14. Re:Clearly the answer is more government intervent by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It isn't our fault they are fucking retarded.

  15. Re:Clearly the answer is more government intervent by kainosnous · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I'm amazed how little your comment resembles reality. Libertarians, and also the TEA party crowd (though they are not exactly the same) favor a smaller government all the way around. Sure, there are some who, for instance, hate recreational drug use. However, as they favor less government, they don't want the government to restrict it. On the other hand, on the left leaning side, some might not like people to have firearms, and yet they also don't want government regulation there.

    The Libertairians and the TEA party voters don't agree on how to wield the mighty arm of the law, they agree that it should be weakened. They believe that instead these things should be decided on a state, or community level, but not on the national level. They certainly wouldn't push for the regulations you speak of, and controling communications is right out.

    --
    There are 10 commandments: 01)Thou shalt love the Lord Thy God 10)Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.Matt22:34-40
  16. Retention of E-mail headers? by Kaz+Kylheku · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The majority of the guests are not going to use the borrow the SMTP server that the hotel uses.

    They are typically going to HTTPS to some webmail account.

    Good luck getting the headers out of that.

    If the hotel has a NAT-ted network, what are they supposed to log? Which 192.168.x.y address had a particular evil-doing port number at a particular time, and match that t a guest?

    Europeans are going daft.

    1. Re:Retention of E-mail headers? by mysidia · · Score: 1

      If the result of the law is they are not allowed to have a NAT'ed "network", then I am all for that.

      It will help root out yet another place where end-to-end connectivity has been broken by braindead many-to-one port-restricted cone NAT setups.

    2. Re:Retention of E-mail headers? by L4t3r4lu5 · · Score: 1

      They may well apply MAC filtering and tie that in with the NAT IP. Yeah, we know they can be spoofed, but does the PHB on an expenses-paid junket care about that?

      --
      Finally had enough. Come see us over at https://soylentnews.org/
    3. Re:Retention of E-mail headers? by houghi · · Score: 1

      They are typically going to HTTPS to some webmail account. Good luck getting the headers out of that.

      They will know that you connected to https://webmail.example.nl/ and can now go to that provider demanding the data. Not sure if they already are around of getting that data by default or are still working on that.

      If the hotel has a NAT-ted network, what are they supposed to log?

      It starts with the MAC adress, then also the remote IP and if possible the email address. This could mean that customers must get a (free or payed for) ode to be able to connect.

      There are ways around it, but then this is not intended for those that are they say it is intended for. This is just because they can. Law enforcement wants more trail of everything. They would love it if everybody would be trackable all the time every time, so their task (prevent and solve crimes) will become much easier with a higher success rate.

      On the other side there should be the people interested in the privacy of their person and nit just at home, but everywhere. That is out of the window, because you are a child molester if you oppose to any of this.
      1984 seems to be the way most people WANT to live.

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    4. Re:Retention of E-mail headers? by kju · · Score: 1

      They will know that you connected to https://webmail.example.nl/ and can now go to that provider demanding the data.

      No. The EU data retention law does not allow/ask for logging actual content like which website was accessed.

  17. Re:Clearly the answer is more government intervent by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I'm amazed how little your comment resembles reality. Libertarians, and also the TEA party crowd (though they are not exactly the same) favor a smaller government all the way around. Sure, there are some who, for instance, hate recreational drug use. However, as they favor less government, they don't want the government to restrict it. On the other hand, on the left leaning side, some might not like people to have firearms, and yet they also don't want government regulation there.

    The Libertairians and the TEA party voters don't agree on how to wield the mighty arm of the law, they agree that it should be weakened. They believe that instead these things should be decided on a state, or community level, but not on the national level. They certainly wouldn't push for the regulations you speak of, and controling communications is right out.

    Just looking at your comment history. Quite a few gems in there.
    This one about you wanting hollywood movies to have no immorality and have biblically themed messages is hilarious.
    http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1806598&cid=33775058

    Now i'm not saying you in particular feel the need to push your viewpoint on others but there are plenty of Libertarians who do. They want to control the internet so that it fits their idea of morality. This has become the new meaning of Libertarianism. It's the opposite of what it should mean and it's unfortunate but the fact is Libertarianism, thanks to the religious right, is now an ideology that wants to control the lives of others. Your typical religious censorship nuts are quite representative of the Libertarian movement.

  18. Re:Clearly the answer is more government intervent by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Anarchists. Unfortunately, starting a political party tends to go against their beliefs.

  19. Re:Clearly the answer is more government intervent by Man+On+Pink+Corner · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Unfortunately, while he was probably just trolling, a lot of people genuinely believe that the TEAbaggers are either small-l or big-L libertarians. It's hard to say who has the worst marketing department between the Libertarian Party, the North Koreans, and NAMBLA.

    For the record, here's how you tell the difference: the L/libertarians were the ones bitching about government overreach during the last administration. The Tea Partiers are the ones who were perfectly content until a President of the Wrong Color was elected.

  20. Re:Clearly the answer is more government intervent by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Unfortunately, while he was probably just trolling, a lot of people genuinely believe that the TEAbaggers are either small-l or big-L libertarians. It's hard to say who has the worst marketing department between the Libertarian Party, the North Koreans, and NAMBLA.

    For the record, here's how you tell the difference: the L/libertarians were the ones bitching about government overreach during the last administration. The Tea Partiers are the ones who were perfectly content until a President of the Wrong Color was elected.

    The former head of the Libertarian party is behind the Tea Party.
    http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/12/16/reinventing-the-revolution/?pagemode=print

    It isn't bad marketing. It's brilliant marketing. There are people who think the Libertarian movement actually means freedom when in fact it's simply another word to refer to the Tea Party. You know, the same people who love religious censorship and control over what you can and can't do in your personal life.

  21. Re:Clearly the answer is more government intervent by Jedi+Alec · · Score: 1

    That's the crux of the thing, isn't it? People shout at the top of their voice how they are in favor of freedom, but when quizzed it turns it they want freedom so they can do whatever they damn well please, and the filthy gays/gun-nuts/pornographers/fundies/whatever can rot in hell.

    And to get back to the article, we're talking the Netherlands, where the Freedom Party wants to ensure freedom by changing the first article of our constitution to explicitly state we're a Judeo-Christian nation and kicking all the muslims out of the country. Freedom...to be a good god-fearing christian, that is.

    --

    People replying to my sig annoy me. That's why I change it all the time.
  22. WIFI access point = ISP? by rcpitt · · Score: 1
    OK - so at what point will anyone who purchases a WIFI access point have to register it and themselves - and keep logs forever and have a license to operate, etc?

    How about anything that can route?

    Linux?

    At what point is this absurdity going to end?

    --
    Been there, done that, paid for the T-shirt
    and didn't get it
  23. Re:Clearly the answer is more government intervent by kainosnous · · Score: 0, Troll

    Seeing as how I've actually been to TEA party rallies and support Libertarian ideas, and have not come across a single example of a libertarian push for government control of anything, I must ask you to cite your sources. Ron Paul is a great example (though technically, he is a Republican). He is opposed to abortion, etc., but instead of making a law to ban them, he simply proposed one that would cause the Supreme Court to be unable to hear such cases one way or the other.

    There are nut jobs on all sides. I tend to tune out anything that Jesse Ventura has to say though he appears at some rallies. Also, there are some laws that even Libertarians support, such as laws against murder, and perhaps laws to enforce voluntary contracts. Keep in mind that many people are quite against things which they support being legal. There are many who would allow flag burning to be legal, yet never tolerate it on their own lawn.

    Now i'm not saying you in particular feel the need to push your viewpoint on others but there are plenty of Libertarians who do. They want to control the internet so that it fits their idea of morality.

    So, please cite your sources, particularly on the matter of Libertarian support for control of the internet. If you speak the truth, perhaps there are "plenty of Libertarians" that I need to not support.

    --
    There are 10 commandments: 01)Thou shalt love the Lord Thy God 10)Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.Matt22:34-40
  24. Re:Clearly the answer is more government intervent by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    I object, i voted against and disliked Bush because he wasn't a conservative, just like i voted against and dislike Obama because he isn't a conservative. Your sweeping generalizations are indicative of the far left.

    In short. Fuck you, sir.

  25. Third party provider to the rescue by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I tend not to think of the Netherlands as one of the ridiculous countries, extending power and surveillence capabilities by any means possible, and this is probably just a case of some bureaucrat getting ahead of himself.

    Regardless, the worst thing that could happen would be that hotels would have to, on paper, outsource the Internet supply to a real ISP, maybe to an existing hotspot provider. Many hotels have some kind of custom WiFi setup to cover the whole hotel, and may require a login or a token to make use of it already. If they wanted to push the obligations to the ISP, the ISP could terminate the private IPs and either authenticate themselves or receive some AAA logs. This is supposing that the Netherlands has a requirement to be able to track down an individual IP/traffic stream to a user (maybe not even in real time, although tapping a particular users and/or household's Internet is a common enough request in terrorism cases).

    What this could mean for hotels is an extra cost as they are required to use more than the basic services of an upstream ISP rather than just plugging in a consumer cable or ADSL service.

    Of course, if registering as an ISP is a single-form-and-€100 job in the Netherlands (it sure as hell isn't in Australia), then they could continue to use their black box solutions modified to have some additional data retention if required (maybe uploading to a central server). It would do away with the currently-rare practice of unauthenticated Internet access, unfortunately.

    This is the Netherlands, not the US, so I kind of assume that sanity will prevail and it will either fall flat on its face, or a suitable compromise will be found.

  26. Hotspot Wirelesses will have to change by GC · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I happen to be typing this from a Dutch Hotel.

    This particular one has free wireless, and there is no way to identify a particular system accessing the net to a room. In fact, without staying here I could still probably sit in the car park or hotel lobby and access the internet from there. There's even a PC in the lobby with anonymous access from it.

    Granted it does use a "Hotspot" login page (just need to check a checkbox and click login), so I suppose that could be modified to have someone provide a room number or PIN etc...

    Changing the way things work though will invariably be a pain though, especially if you need to access the Internet over the weekends and the authentication system breaks down or something else goes wrong... (as seems to be quite common with the systems in many hotels). Reception tend to look at you with rather blank faces when this happens, and it usually isn't fixed until a weekday.

    1. Re:Hotspot Wirelesses will have to change by mspohr · · Score: 1

      Hotspot login page probably records your MAC and IP as well as OS and browser so you could be traced. Could also collect lots of other information to uniquely identify you.

      --
      I don't read your sig. Why are you reading mine?
  27. Re:Clearly the answer is more government intervent by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "The Tea Partiers are the ones who were perfectly content until a President of the Wrong Party/Religion/Political Assosiations was elected."

    Fixed that for you. You are correct. Real Libertarians were complaining when George W. Bush was in office enacting the "Patriot Act". I don't really know of any Tea Partiers who dislike Obama because he's black, though.

  28. Stupid, stupid, stupid... by xenobyte · · Score: 1

    The data retention system is never ever going to prevent any terrorism. Real dangerous terrorists would never communicate over the open Internet, and amateurs that might are not really dangerous; they are more likely to either blow themselves up by accident or be unable to manufacture even the simplest explosive that works.

    --
    "For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong." -- H.L. Mencken (1880-1956) --
    1. Re:Stupid, stupid, stupid... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      These things aren't about terrorists. They are there to keep the general populace in line. To provide a sense of power to politicians and corporations, who see the Internet as a danger to their superiority.

  29. Re:Clearly the answer is more government intervent by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    Seeing as how I've actually been to TEA party rallies and support Libertarian ideas, and have not come across a single example of a libertarian push for government control of anything, I must ask you to cite your sources.

    Tea Party protests FOR government intervention to stop the rebulding of a mosque at ground zero.

    Brooklyn Tea Party founder John Press, who rallied against the Ground Zero Mosque in recent weeks, again raised the spectre of foreign domination. "The Mosque is founded by a very scary people and the US Constitution does not guarantee the right of a foreign nation to build a mosque in our country," he said. It's unclear if Mr. Press had merely forgotten the First Amendment, but one member of his protest group did recall the constitutional barrier on government suppression of religion -- he just chose to ignore it.

    Link

    Mark Williams, chairman of the Tea Party Express, blogged about the 13-story mosque and Islamic cultural center planned at Park Place and Broadway, calling it a monument to the 9/11 terrorists. "The monument would consist of a Mosque for the worship of the terrorists' monkey-god,"

    Link

    Example 2: Tea Party anti-abortionists that WANT government to legislate against abortion.
    Link

    Example 3: Tea Party WANTS laws to differentiate Gay and Lesbians.

    Montana Tea Party Leader Endorses Violence Toward Gay People

    Link

    In other words the Tea Party is nothing more than religious conservatives trying to control our lives. The Libertarian Party used to be run by Ron Paul who helped kick start the tea party movement. The two are clearly intrinsically linked. Libertarian has come to mean the opposite of its original definition thanks to people trying to play double-speak.

  30. Re:Clearly the answer is more government intervent by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So, please cite your sources, particularly on the matter of Libertarian support for control of the internet

    You don't really need them to answer this, you should know the answer. S/he's probably confused about what the movement actually means, and is blinded by the rhetoric spewed forth on these forums regarding Net Neutrality. Something such as:

    You are Libertarian. You think you should be able to do whatever you wish, like control the Internet through NN by letting yourself and your rich cronies control what content I am allowed to receive through my computer. This is the opposite of the true meaning of Libertarianism, you should be ashamed.

    The biggest point being, that they think "it is the opposite of Libertarianism." Well, they're right. It is, and it's why Libertarians don't believe in that stuff.

    I've been a registered Libertarian since 2002. Until recently, we've enjoyed relative obscurity because everyone else (especially Democrat Liberals who call themselves such even though they don't know the meaning of THAT word) has been too busy complaining about a president who decided it was a good idea to oust one of the World's most evil men. Now they have their buddy in the Oval Office and they have decided that now is the time to focus attention on the coming threat. Those of us who are sick and tired of bureaucratic waste and hope to improve the inherent qualities of our country, rather than enable everyone to simply continue their life-long mooching off the haves.

    And this correlation between Libertarians and the Religious Right is utter nonsense. While I'm sure there are Libertarians who have religious views (a recent interview on PBS Newshour mentioned that in a study, something like 1% of respondents said they were Atheist or Agnostic) they are not the same Temperance Movement type of people you might remember from your days during previous centuries. I am an Agnostic and a Libertarian. I don't particularly like people (especially family and friends) telling me that I "need to find God." I'm a fucking Agnostic you moron, I've already decided that I won't "find God" because it is simply outside the scope of my comprehension.

    Now, all of you Demicans and Republocrats can continue on with your self-serving discussion.

  31. And won't work in the cases the authorities want by Todd+Knarr · · Score: 1

    For me, when I'm at a hotel I don't use tappable/monitorable e-mail. I'm either using secure IMAP to my own server, running a client on my home machine remotely via X11-over-SSH, or using my own WebMail server (or a Google one) via HTTPS with a check of the certificate. I assume that any time I'm on a "free wi-fi" network there may be proxy servers handling all unencrypted traffic (and potentially trying to MITM SSL traffic), so I avoid running anything across the network that I don't want the general public to see.

  32. More likely by DrXym · · Score: 1

    Hotels offer free wifi since guests demand it. If red tape turns up which turns them into an ISP I don't see it necessarily stopping them from offering wifi. Instead some enterprising company will sell an ISP in a box, which will be a glorified NAS / router with extra logging /audit trail.

    1. Re:More likely by santax · · Score: 1

      Building one as we speak. Thank you very much!

  33. Terribly worded statement by intellitech · · Score: 1

    "This is probably not likely to lead to a more widespread adoption of free WiFi services in hotels." Here's a much better one - "This may lead to less free WiFi services in hotels."

    --
    vos nescitis quicquam, nec cogitatis quia expedit nobis ut unus moriatur homo pro populo et non tota gens pereat.
  34. Re:Clearly the answer is more government intervent by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ... Libertarians, and also the TEA party ...

    How exactly is this Insightful and not Off Topic?

    (Ironically, this comment is most definitely off topic. Consider it a meta-comment.)

  35. Timothy this title is misleading. by Barryke · · Score: 3, Informative

    hankwang and timothy! Article title is misleading.

    "Dutch Hotels Must Register As ISPs" is wrong (they do not) and should read "Dutch OPTA sues Hotels for being an ISP".
    It is the OPTA that is test-trialing 10 large hotels to find out (by ruling) whether they are (or not are) ISP's.

    "OPTA checks whether market parties comply with the law in order to protect consumers." - http://www.opta.nl/en/about-opta/

    In what way exactly this move protects consumers i am not sure, but i reckon the OPTA wants to break down some vague holes in the law behind some ISP's might hide themselves.

    --
    Hivemind harvest in progress..
  36. This will probably happen in Finland too.. by sakari · · Score: 1

    Since the introduction of the Lex Nokia in Finland, which enables the ISPs to monitor the headers of e-mails (and other stuff) going through their pipes, this doesn't sound very surprising. I'm predicting that we will have similar laws here in Finland too, for Hotels and also Office buildings too, then later on extended to actual houses which share the same connection. This is their way of gaining control of the Internet.

    If this happens, I'll be on the streets. Hope to see you there too. Stand up for your rights as a citizen of Earth! But in a peaceful way

  37. This was nearly the case in the UK... by cardpuncher · · Score: 1

    Early drafts of the Digital Economy Bill would have had all ISPs liable for data retention and, more onerously, require they could identify individual subscribers in the event of complaints about "illegal" downloading. Inability to comply would have meant the ISP taking full liability for their users actions. This would have been the end of collective Internet provision in a whole range of settings (hotels, cafes, managed business premises,...) where the costs of compliance would outweigh the revenue generated.

    In its late stages, the bill was changed to exempt all but the larger ISPs from its provisions. Which is equally absurd because if you don't want your data retained and do want to download the latest Hollywood yawnfest then you sign up with one of the smaller ISPs.

    Having hotels police the Internet is not really different to requiring them to have an old lady sitting on each landing noting the movement of people in and out of their rooms, a common practice in Eastern Europe back in the Cold War days.

  38. Re:Clearly the answer is more government intervent by mcvos · · Score: 1

    The word "libertarian" comes from 19th century libertarian socialism, which was later called anarchism. It's a part of the socialist movement that rejected Marx's state socialism for being dictatorial and oppressive. They also rejected capitalist liberalism for creating privilege, injustice, and in the end also oppression.

    I honestly think we should take another look at anarchism/libertarian socialism.

  39. Same as it is in many countries by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That's the case with many other countries' laws. You are a internet service provider because you provide internet service. Period. If ISPs in your country have certain requirements, you have to fulfill them. Instead of stating the obvious, maybe the authorities should think about relaxing certain requirements for ISPs. Laws made 20 years ago may be partially obsolete.

  40. Who will profit? by vvpt · · Score: 1

    There is probably more then meets the eye here. The telecom regulator (OPTA) came into action after a complaint from a telco. It is not know what the complain is about but probably something about unfair competition ("we have to register as an ISP and the hotels get a free ride"). Currently OPTA is investigating if hotel wifi is a "public electronic communicationsnetwork". If they conclude hotel wifi falls into that definition then hotels (but also Starbucks and McDonalds) have to fulfill all obligations under the Dutch Telecommunications Act. And those are making the network ready for wiretapping and data retention. And that is not limited to responding to a wiretap warrant. They'll have to adjust their network so that they can execute the wiretap according to specs in the regulation. Those specs also require security measures for the wiretap equipment, screened personnel to handle warrants, etc. In the end hotels will conclude that this is costly and complicated. That is when the telco steps in (remember, they complained to the regulator). They can offer hotspots with all wiretap and data retention obligations already implemented. Profit! Hotels can of course easily fix the problem - if open wifi turns out to fall within that definition in the law - by requiring a password for wifi access. After that it's not pubic wifi anymore.

    1. Re:Who will profit? by Drakkenmensch · · Score: 1

      The RIAA and MPAA, that's who. Just look at the wave of stringent content control laws that are on the rise... France already has its three strikes law and ISPs are expected to hand over tens of thousands of names a MONTH to them for suspected use of copyrighted contents. If hotels become considered ISPs, they too will be expected to become indentured servants of the almighty Righteous Inquisition of intellectual property, stripping away yet one more layer of rights from users.

    2. Re:Who will profit? by HikingStick · · Score: 1

      It just seems that the relevant laws have poor definitions. Since the hotels likely must contract with ISPs to connect to the Internet, they are really no more of an ISP than I am when I host a LAN party. They need to define what backbone providers are, and then define ISPs as those companies that offer consumer access plans that make the connection from the consumer to the backbone provider.

      --
      I use irony whenever I can, but my shirts are still wrinkled...
  41. With the same reasoning... by zAPPzAPP · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Hotels also supply customers with electricity, water and often tv over cable network. They dispose of their customers trash and relay messages left for their customers. So they should have to register as power distributor, waterworks, cable network company, postal company and waste disposal contractor, right?

  42. Simple, really by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Either you are an ISP and abide by applicable legislation, or you take responsibility for the traffic on your network. So if somebody publishes something copyrighted through your router, you get to decide: either you claim you're an ISP and the authorities subpoena your logs or you claim you're a private citizen and have to defend yourself in court.

    This will have analogous implications to libraries, schools and private companies as well.

  43. Re:Clearly the answer is more government intervent by mjwalshe · · Score: 1

    i dont think "Libertairians" think that devolving government to the local level is desirable they want a very small number of key competencies delivered by government (normaly things like defence) and I suspect that a real libertarian would do away with the individual "states" ability to do anything.

  44. Europe is so broken... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Europe is doomed, there is only one rule that politician have to follow : if something works, make sure you break it by creating a pointless law.

    I'm born European and left 7 years ago, never ever I would live there again, NEVER !

  45. ridiculous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    False history. a lot of current tea party activists were the ones who burned up the phone lines to oppose the big bank bailouts (the enrich wall street crooks even further act) and then the government motors bailouts. They were and are against the two illegal wars currently running.

    What a lot on the outside don't realize is that there are two distinct wings inside the tea party movement, loosely based around economics and then social issues. thee is a ron paul=ish wing/group, then the palin type folks.

    Now, a lot of these people if you go back are the same ones who pushed the reform party, which was against globalist ripoff issues like nafta and gatt and the wto, etc., plus all the huge increases in government employment/expense/bloat. They have been consistent over the years. This tea party movement has its roots going way back before the current obamanation. We just can't seem to break the corrupt two party "system". So we have to compromise, and with only two choices, it is apparent which of the two is closer.

    Of course if you really paid attention over the years you would know that....

    Why you see now that they appear to be part of the R party is that at least some Rs support those ideals, the Dems don't offer any hope at all, just change to even larger and more obtrusive government. The dems particular fail on small business, ye gads do they suck. They have made it a freaking nightmare to run a small business or a family farm. the only "jobs" program they support is more government workers! They fail on all the issues, free speech to economics, and because of the way the winner take all vote system and political system is stacked, you are forced to fall behind one banner or the other. If the dems had ANY smaller government and more freedom support, they wouldn't be in the position they are now, losing mind share daily.

    The dems took the JFK legacy and by letting the extreme progressive wing take over their policies have pushed it so far they bankrupted the nation.

    You can't promise the moon sun and stars to everyone when all you have is an asteroid budget to work with, I mean, econo 101 fail. There ain't enough money in the world to support all these looney tunes social engineering projects that consistently fail combined with government workers bloated salaries and pensions, we are trillions in the red from those policies.

  46. Oh nooo by giorgist · · Score: 1

    I have a Galaxy S, yesterday I had to give to my poor iPhone friend some internet by turning my Galaxy S into a wirless hub.
    That would make me an ISP.
    Does that mean I have to retain his emails for 8 years ?

  47. Re:Clearly the answer is more government intervent by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I've been a registered Libertarian since 2002. Until recently, we've enjoyed relative obscurity because everyone else [...] has been too busy complaining about a president who decided it was a good idea to oust one of the World's most evil men.

    Just an aside, but if I knew some guy living on my block was a murdering drug dealer and I decided to go publicly kill him, I'd be thrown on jail for murder. I'd expect a president to be beholden to the same rule of law and due process that I am, at the very least (I'd actually say he should face more controls since he wields disproportionately more power). I certainly wouldn't expect to be landing lucrative deals off the back of my vigilante actions. Oh, and someone who has already decided there is no god is an atheist. An agnostic has no belief but is not closed to the possibility of a god.

  48. Adam by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hi, if you're connected to the Internet from a hotel, your connexion is NOT SECURED, you can be easily tracked, and all your actions logged. That's why, if you are connected to the Internet from a hotel, you should buy a VPN (Virtual Private Network) to hide everything you are doing. Here is a list of more than 100 VPN providers and informations if you want to know more about VPN: http://www.start-vpn.com/

  49. Re:Clearly the answer is more government intervent by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Oh, and someone who has already decided there is no god is an atheist. An agnostic has no belief but is not closed to the possibility of a god.

    Not that you'll read this, but thanks Captain Duh. I'm not sure where you read that I "have decided there is no God" but I didn't say that. Go back, read once more. I clearly said that I will not find God. It's kind of like keys, especially lost ones. I know those keys are somewhere, I just can't find them.

    You get -1 for comprehension.

    And on the note of Saddam, fuck due process. Due process had been attempted for years and years and years. The World Government had failed to exact any meaningful change in Iraq. They developed Resolutions to prevent specific activities and then failed to hold those violating those resolutions accountable.

    Why don't you go tell the families of the people who lost their lives at the hands of Saddam that they should have just waited for due process. And yeah, I'm sorry for all of the troops who have lost their lives, but if they weren't ready to make that sacrifice, they shouldn't have signed up.

    Just an aside, but I'm also sorry for all of the troops who lost their lives ridding the world of Hitler. Unfortunately, I'm also sorry for the millions who lost their lives while waiting for due process to occur.

  50. On the internet, all hosts are equal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    By the very nature of the design of the internet anyone using the internet is an ISP. The Netherlands should simply make registering as an ISP part and parcel of registering to vote or something else every citizen is required to do.

  51. Re:Clearly the answer is more government intervent by Hatta · · Score: 2, Insightful

    TEA party crowd (though they are not exactly the same) favor a smaller government all the way around. Sure, there are some who, for instance, hate recreational drug use. However, as they favor less government, they don't want the government to restrict it.

    What Tea Party figurehead has come out against government restrictions on drugs? Has any speaker at any Tea Party event even brought this up?

    No. The Tea Partiers are only against government restrictions on rich white christian folk.

    --
    Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
  52. Re:Clearly the answer is more government intervent by ultranova · · Score: 1

    Anarchists. Unfortunately, starting a political party tends to go against their beliefs.

    Anarchy: oppresion by the strongest warrior or most charismatic gang leader. In other words, Libertarianism Lite.

    --

    Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

  53. Re:Clearly the answer is more government intervent by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

    Has any speaker at any Tea Party event even brought this up?

    Very first hit on Google: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-73xSqoq5s

    --
    My God, it's Full of Source!
    OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
  54. Law: Back off! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The laws around the world really should back off from ISPs. Internet is so easy to give access to and so important, people should be entitled to it.

    I think if we make ISPs accountable for giving access to the Internet to people, then we should consider owners of supermarkets, malls, parks etc as Public Property Providers and make them accountable too... Like forcing them to install cameras everywhere, including washrooms, and make every visitor/customer sign a list when they enter the area.
    Access to the Internet should be easy. Laws making ISPs and owners of public WiFi networks accountable for their users set back the advancement of society and Internet technology (not to mention the room for abuse, since any statement criticizing a government can be called an act of terrorism and used to identify you and get you in legal trouble. Many accused 'terrorists' have done nothing more than criticizing the West and happening to be acquainted with Al Qaeda members, but are not members themselves and never helped prepare or commit terrorist actions).

    If the authorities want to know who's visiting what website, they should use similar methods as in real life (like observing traffic on a specific website suspected of harboring criminal activity). In real life, the law does not require people to keep records of who accesses their property (you don't sign in when you enter a store, do you?). 'Cheating' by using any means available to fight crime is not without consequences. Authorities have trouble understanding that.
    Just imagine if someone was following you around, taking note of everything you do (where you go, who you talk to and what you talk about, what you buy, how you travel, what clothes you wear, etc) and then that person had to give all this information to the police if you were suspected of even the tiniest felony? Just because it's the Internet does not make it any less intrusive.

    Bottom line: the Internet is a great piece of technology. It can really advance society in many ways. But most governments treat it more as a tool for criminality rather than something useful.

  55. Paris hotels are doing this already by JerRocks · · Score: 1

    I was in Paris recently and had to register with their ISP as a free WIFI user prior to being granted access to the Internet.

    They claimed it was due to a recently passed law (and provided a link to the law but I chose not to follow up as it was easier to just register and move on rather than argue with anybody during my vacation).

  56. Mom, Dad and the kids too. by niftymitch · · Score: 1

    How is a hotel different from a family sharing an internet connection? Like even when the kids and their friends sit down at the dinner table and study.

    There are a couple issues stated but one of them involves sending spam. Since most spam is sent from compromised it seems to me that the purveyors of fragile operating systems need to have their feet held to the fire.

    Some purveyors charge much more for a software update than they charged the OEM to install the fragile OS in the first place.

    Obsolescence is not a license to extort more fees.

    --
    Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't. Mark Twain.