Where Are the Original PC Programmers Now?

← Back to Stories (view on slashdot.org)

Where Are the Original PC Programmers Now?

Posted by kdawson on Friday October 22, 2010 @02:41AM from the nobody-expects-the-internet dept.

Esther Schindler writes "In 1986, Susan Lammers did a series of interviews with 19 prominent programmers in a Microsoft Press book, Programmers at Work. These interviews give a unique view into the shared perceptions of accomplished programmers, the people who invented the tools you use today. In Programmers Who Defined The Technology Industry: Where Are They Now?, I tracked down the fate of these prominent developers — from Robert Carr (Framework) to Dan Bricklin (VisiCalc) to Toru Iwatani (author of Pac Man, I'm glad you asked). The article quotes the developers' 1986 views on programming, the business, and the future of computing. In two cases (Bricklin and Jonathan Sachs, author of Lotus 1-2-3) I spoke with them to learn if, and how, their views had changed. One meaty example: In 1986, Bill Gates said, on Microsoft's future: 'Even though there'll be more and more machines, our present thinking is that we won't have to increase the size of our development groups, because we'll simply be making programs that sell in larger quantities. We can get a very large amount of software revenue and still keep the company not dramatically larger than what we have today. That means we can know everybody and talk and share tools and maintain a high level of quality.' At the time, Microsoft had 160 programmers."

124 comments

Min score:

Reason:

Sort:

So.... by Mitchell314 · 2010-10-22 02:43 · Score: 4, Funny

... 160 programmers is all you'll ever need?

--
I read TFA and all I got was this lousy cookie
1. Re:So.... by Monkeedude1212 · 2010-10-22 02:46 · Score: 5, Insightful
  
  Well those were back in the 8 bit days when the database couldn't hold more than 256 employees at once. They had some wiggle room, but not much.
2. Re:So.... by Chrisq · 2010-10-22 02:47 · Score: 5, Interesting
  
  ... 160 programmers is all you'll ever need?
  I would be interested in a then/now of how many lawyers they have. That would really reflect the change in the IT industry.
3. Re:So.... by Kjella · 2010-10-22 02:54 · Score: 1
  
  Developer/lawyer ratio over time... now that'd be an interesting graph.
  
  --
  Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
4. Re:So.... by Anonymous Coward · 2010-10-22 03:14 · Score: 0
  
  depends... for what? changing a lamp?
5. Re:So.... by Anonymous Coward · 2010-10-22 03:33 · Score: 0
  
  > ... 160 programmers is all you'll ever need?
  That kind of eases the task. Ok, now, how to find 160 real programmers at M$?
  Also, I find great inspiration in Gates example: I can prevail despite being a moron! It has been done before! Yay!
6. Re:So.... by CAIMLAS · 2010-10-22 04:27 · Score: 2, Insightful
  
  As a proportion of their employee total, I'd suspect it's actually shrunk a bit. Microsoft wasn't exactly a litigation-free company back then.
  
  --
  ~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
7. Re:So.... by Firethorn · 2010-10-22 04:49 · Score: 1
  
  When I read the comment I thought something along the lines of 'perhaps a great man isn't one who's never wrong; but one who's willing to admit his mistakes and move on'. I'm probably stealing/paraphrasing a quote from somebody, but have no clue as to who.
  Bill Gates certainly wasn't 100% on predicting the future; but apparently he was willing to adapt when the world didn't follow his vision.
  
  --
  I don't read AC A human right
8. Re:So.... by Anonymous Coward · 2010-10-22 05:07 · Score: 0
  
  8-bit days? 1986? On the PC?
  Sorry, no. We were already on 32-bit 80386 machines back then.
9. Re:So.... by iluvcapra · 2010-10-22 05:13 · Score: 3, Interesting
  
  There's a very active debate on wether or not Microsoft at the present time, or throughout its growth after they finished NT has had simply way too many developers, and if its corporate culture hasn't suffered because of the bureaucratic overhead involved in keeping something like 30,000 programmers merely busy, let alone productive, creative, entrepreneurial and all that other awesome stuff you generally need cutting edge development to be. This is the view taken by Mini-Microsoft and others.
  Compare also the opinion of John Sculley when he talked about the Mac unit when him and Jobs were still working together -- the whole division, hardware and software was only a hundred people or so, and only maybe a dozen were OS engineers, with another team of equivalent size writing the bundled applications. Apple presently has about 35,000 employees, but its been mentioned in sources that at least 2/3rds of them are in the retail side of the business, and for all of their OS and application development some people put their actual headcount in the mere hundreds.
  
  --
  Don't blame me, I voted for Baltar.
10. Re:So.... by blair1q · 2010-10-22 05:24 · Score: 1
  
  That's what he said. And he would have been right. If he hadn't had competitors who added features that threatened his sales.
  The more features you have, the more programmers you need. Especially when you have shitty strategies for integrating functions, reusing code, automating tests, and fixing bugs.
11. Re:So.... by Anonymous Coward · 2010-10-22 06:01 · Score: 0
  
  There were no databases, it was years before DBase or Condor appeared. You had to roll your own at the time and the limiting factor was the amount of ram you had. 16k bytes was a lot in those days
12. Re:So.... by commodore64_love · 2010-10-22 06:27 · Score: 1
  
  Gates forgot to take into account two things:
  - Since 1986 computers have developed new tools that did not exist then (on PCs anyway), like Paint programs, music creation programs, web browsers, media players. That required hiring more programmers to develop those new tools.
  - Microsoft had been a small company serving IBM, Commodore, etc, but now they have to serve thousands of businesses and millions of consumers directly. That requires additional programmers to handle the extra grunt work ("No ma'am the CD drive is not a coffee holder.").
  
  --
  "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
13. Re:So.... by julesh · 2010-10-22 08:29 · Score: 1
  
  Sorry, no. We were already on 32-bit 80386 machines back then [in 1986].
  Barely. Sure, the 386 processor was available, but the first PC to use it didn't launch until nearly the end of the year (earliest review a brief search finds was in the Nov '86 issue of Byte). And with a $6,000+ price tag, most people were still buying 286s (about $3-5,000) or 8086-based machines (more like $1-2,000). Even as late as 1989, when I bought my first PC, 8086-based machines were much more common than 386s, and even if you were only slightly budget-minded you generally got a 286 rather than a 386.
14. Re:So.... by Anonymous Coward · 2010-10-22 14:38 · Score: 0
  
  There's a very active debate on wether or not Microsoft at the present time, or throughout its growth after they finished NT has had simply way too many developers
  Wether: castrated male goat
  Whether: Expressing a doubt or choice between alternatives
  Too many, too few, either way they have a long tradition of taking a long time and a lot of money to crank out mediocre software.
15. Re:So.... by Anonymous Coward · 2010-10-23 03:49 · Score: 0
  
  > a very active debate
  Is there even a debate?
  Also, please fucking stop saying 'at the present time' when 'now' works perfectly. Try it. 'Now'. 'N-O-W'. It's shorter! Some north-americans like you are idiots. If you want your writing to be impressive, use good ideas, not random letters.
  Also, Sculley came out as a clueless, rambling, moronic sub-human in that interview. No wonder Apple declined during his pathetic time there. I picture developers face-palming all the time in endless meetings with him holding coloured pens in front of dry erase boards. Oh, the pain.
16. Re:So.... by Anonymous Coward · 2010-10-25 05:52 · Score: 0
  
  And does anyone remember when Bill said " The computer industry has nothing to do with government or regulation. If only the US government would stay out of our business we'd be OK. There is no need for any government agency ever to have anything to do with what the computer industry is all about.(no wonder we are drowning in viruses and Trojans)
  And then there was(though I tend to agree with him)Microsoft's internet blindness.
  Gates said , in reply to why Microsoft was not more,(at all), involved in the commercialization of the "Internet": "I prefer to read my issue of time magazine on paper"-maybe he had a point when one considers the mass destruction of mass media in the West.
  Actually, Gates, like lots of folks of his generation, is a man of his time-the 1960's and '70's. MOst of the really big ideas and breakthroughs were not of his creation; he and his cohort merely used personal energy and power to get them made manifest.
  The PC was an IBM/Xerox-PARC invention stolen or "borrowed" by Apple and Jobs.
  The technology for the cell phone was freely and widely known and available and the science well known long before the First World War. There just weren't needed tools for miniaturization or small, long lived batteries yet.
  Look at the concept of programmable magnets-this is one of the technologies of the future- but I bet that most of today's engineers can imagine, at best, the advent of the miraculous, self closing pants fly!
640K ought to be enough for anybody by buck-yar · 2010-10-22 02:45 · Score: 1

This guy sure does generalize.
1. Re:640K ought to be enough for anybody by Dumnezeu · 2010-10-22 03:24 · Score: 1
  
  That was from IBM, not MS. Look it up, really!
  
  --
  Yes, it's sarcasm. Deal with it!
2. Re:640K ought to be enough for anybody by indeciso · 2010-10-22 03:34 · Score: 1
  
  You mean 640K programmers? :P
3. Re:640K ought to be enough for anybody by gstoddart · 2010-10-22 03:42 · Score: 2, Informative
  
  That was from IBM, not MS. Look it up, really!
  I can find Bill Gates denying he said it. I can find someone saying they don't believe him. I can even find someone saying that the quote is likely apocryphal.
  It doesn't seem like anybody is actually reliably attributed to this quote. So, either it's a meme that's stuck, or Bill Gates is lying, or it's mis-attributed and nobody knows who said it.
  Anybody got something more definitive?
  
  --
  Lost at C:>. Found at C.
4. Re:640K ought to be enough for anybody by MobileTatsu-NJG · 2010-10-22 04:09 · Score: 1
  
  Anybody got something more definitive?
  No programmer would ever, in the history of computing, say any amount of resources is enough?
  
  --
  
  "I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)
5. Re:640K ought to be enough for anybody by Anonymous Coward · 2010-10-22 04:33 · Score: 0
  
  Bill Gates was NOT a programmer. He could write some stuff, but he was a N0b at best. His genius was at business.
  Honestly, why do all of you perpetuate this bullshit that Bill actually designed or wrote anything? ASK the guys that actually did write MSbasic how much bill actually contributed.
6. Re:640K ought to be enough for anybody by MobileTatsu-NJG · 2010-10-22 04:48 · Score: 1
  
  Honestly, why do all of you perpetuate this bullshit that Bill actually designed or wrote anything?
  Look it up.
  
  --
  
  "I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)
7. Re:640K ought to be enough for anybody by chthon · 2010-10-22 05:22 · Score: 1
  
  I definitely remember this quote from the beginning of the eighties in the Dutch version of the magazine Elektor/Elektuur.
  No electronic hobbyists here who have old archives?
8. Re:640K ought to be enough for anybody by gstoddart · 2010-10-22 05:24 · Score: 4, Informative
  
  "Honestly, why do all of you perpetuate this bullshit that Bill actually designed or wrote anything?"
  Look it up.
  Well, take this with a grain of salt, but this would indicate he's done some programming. He's believed to have written a BASIC interpreter
  I'm pretty sure he isn't credited with actually writing DOS. He didn't invent as much as he marketed. He's not some uber coder who actually created a lot of things.
  He even said as much in 1986:
  
  INTERVIEWER: You obviously have a lot of responsibilities as chief executive officer of Microsoft. Do you still program?
  GATES: No, I don’t. I still help design algorithms and basic approaches, and sometimes I look at code. But since I worked on the IBM PC BASIC and the Model 100, I haven’t had a chance to actually create a program myself.
  Bill Gates is a business man with a grounding in tech, and has been around while most of it was created so has a lot of perspective. But, I think his actual "hands on" coding is more limited than people think.
  
  --
  Lost at C:>. Found at C.
9. Re:640K ought to be enough for anybody by MobileTatsu-NJG · 2010-10-22 05:47 · Score: 1
  
  Well, take this with a grain of salt, but this [zdnet.com] would indicate he's done some programming. He's believed to have written a BASIC interpreter
  There's some interesting stuff in his Wikipedia page, too. However, you've already said enough to validate my point. You also managed to write a really nice rebuttal to a bunch of stuff I didn't say. Heh.
  
  --
  
  "I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)
10. Re:640K ought to be enough for anybody by Anonymous Coward · 2010-10-22 07:45 · Score: 0
  
  "Elektor" is also distributed in Germany although I don't know whether it's the magazine you mentioned.
11. Re:640K ought to be enough for anybody by theaveng · 2010-10-22 07:51 · Score: 1
  
  Could also be that someone DID say it, but not those exact words.
  It's often repeated that nobody said, "Play it again Sam," but if you watch the movie there's a quote very similar to that (Play it Sam.). At some point someone, somewhere decided 640K would be enough to run MS-DOS apps and because Bill Gates was the boss, it was probably him. After all the original IBM PC only had 16k, so Gates probably figured ~40 times that amount was plenty.
  
  --
  FOX NEWS.com should be BANNED from television and internet. Have the Congress take it over and give us Truespeak.
12. Re:640K ought to be enough for anybody by Anonymous Coward · 2010-10-22 09:14 · Score: 0
  
  But, I think his [Bill Gate's] actual "hands on" coding is more limited than people think.
  No, I think you're wrong. I've seen Microsoft Bob.
13. Re:640K ought to be enough for anybody by Anonymous Coward · 2010-10-22 09:26 · Score: 0
  
  That was a misquote. Bill actually said, "640 pixels out to be enough."
  I think this is partially why the iPhone used 640x960, because Steve Jobs loves to be coy about sticking it to people.
Best. Gates. Quote. Evar by Anonymous Coward · 2010-10-22 02:46 · Score: 0, Troll

blah blah blah ...and maintain a high level of quality... blah blah blah

Yeah. That famous Microsoft "quality". ROFL
Bill Gates said what? by cindyann · 2010-10-22 02:47 · Score: 2, Insightful

"We can get a very large amount of software revenue and still keep the company not dramatically larger"
Translation: more money for me.
1. Re:Bill Gates said what? by CannonballHead · 2010-10-22 05:00 · Score: 1
  
  Isn't that kinda how businesses work? Try to make more revenue without wasting?
  To a certain extent, of course... but isn't that just trying to be efficient? Maximum sales, least amount of work?
  I mean, there are other things too, like developing good products, having good developers, etc. But I find it hard to fault a business owner for wanting to expand sales and not have to expand the company by an equal amount... that would mean his profit isn't going to go up much.
2. Re:Bill Gates said what? by Anonymous Coward · 2010-10-22 05:55 · Score: 0
  
  Also, Gates gets the internet before the tubes included the www. When the www arrived to the tubes he quickly ungot it.
3. Re:Bill Gates said what? by cindyann · 2010-10-22 06:06 · Score: 1
  
  We need a Nike (s)whoosh icon.
  Oh wait, this isn't The Register. Never mind.
If they did well, by Anonymous Coward · 2010-10-22 02:47 · Score: 0

they are sitting pretty on a beach somewhere...
Von Neumann Archetecture by mcgrew · 2010-10-22 02:48 · Score: 2, Insightful

PCs are little different than then the big iron when computers were new. I'd say that people like Grace Hopper who wrote the first compiler, Von Neumann who came up with the archetecture, John Atanasoff and Clifford Berry, John Mauchly and J. Presper Eckert, etc. were the real pioneers.

--
Free Martian Whores!
1. Re:Von Neumann Archetecture by Anonymous Coward · 2010-10-22 02:57 · Score: 0
  
  Nope, there were no computers and no smart people before the Space Age. It's true, ask Tom Hudson.
2. Re:Von Neumann Archetecture by arth1 · 2010-10-22 03:20 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  In defense of TFA, it is called "Programmers who Defined the Technology Industry", following up on the book "Programmers at Work" which was about Microsoft programmers.
  Listing who the real computer pioneers were is a bit like replying to a post about singers by stating that Robert Moog and J.S. Bach were music pioneers.
3. Re:Von Neumann Archetecture by Anonymous Coward · 2010-10-22 03:50 · Score: 0
  
  ... What about Turing?
4. Re:Von Neumann Archetecture by plcurechax · 2010-10-22 07:26 · Score: 3, Informative
  following up on the book "Programmers at Work" which was about Microsoft programmers.
  No, many of them never worked for Microsoft. The book was published by Microsoft Press as I remember.
  Though most if not all were microcomputer (i.e. Personal Computer aka PC) programmers. That's were the revolution was happening. Mini and mainframes had been around for a while by that time in computing's history.
  Gary Kildall
  Andy Hertzfeld
  Jef Raskin
  Toru Iwatani
  C. Wayne Ratliff
  Dan Bricklin
  Scott Kim
  ...
  All of these programmers never worked at Microsoft, and neither did I.
This is impossible. by Anonymous Coward · 2010-10-22 02:48 · Score: 0

The resident Slashdot Space Nutters have assured me that we only have computers, mice and keyboards because of the Space Age. Who are these impostors in the article? They're not astronauts, and they didn't write their code in space.
Back in the days by Drakkenmensch · 2010-10-22 02:48 · Score: 5, Insightful

Everyone from my parents to job counselors kept telling me that learning programming and computers was a dead end because it was both a fad and a saturated market. IBM already had all the programmers they would ever need, who would hire more?
1. Re:Back in the days by ciderbrew · 2010-10-22 03:09 · Score: 0, Offtopic
  
  penises, scrape and money all on the same line. How on earth did this get passed the web filters?
  
  I want to rewrite it and put - scrape into your mouth - But I just don't wanna.
2. Re:Back in the days by tokul · 2010-10-22 03:21 · Score: 1
  
  IBM already had all the programmers they would ever need, who would hire more?
  
  We all die sooner or later.
3. Re:Back in the days by AnonymousClown · 2010-10-22 03:24 · Score: 5, Insightful
  
  Everyone from my parents to job counselors kept telling me that learning programming and computers was a dead end because it was both a fad and a saturated market. IBM already had all the programmers they would ever need, who would hire more?
  Then, you went into programming. Life was good ... but you start noticing that more and more programming jobs start going overseas. But you don't worry, they're just doing the maintenance and boiler plate code. You, after all, are doing the intense design and algorithms. Life is still good - your pay just keeps going up and up!
  Then one day, you're asked to train a young man from an Asian country about your code. You answer questions like, "What does an asterisk by a variable mean?", "What's this arrow mean?" and "What's a pointer?" and other questions that make you wonder if this person is even qualified to be doing what they hired him for.
  You think nothing of it because you have skills and you are always willing to learn and adjust - you'll be employable for ever!
  Time goes on and you're getting closer to 40. You start doing more documentation type of things because the coding is being done more and more with outsourcing companies.
  Then one day, they don't need you anymore and when you try to get more work, you hear nothing. Many, many, many resumes out - nothing. You get more education and training and still nothing. In the meantime, you see posts on places like Slashdot saying that they are having a hard time getting qualified people. Resisting the urge to flame the poster, you walk away from your computer mumbling, "Bullshit. Bullshit.Bullshit. Bullshit. ..."
  You then see that some "loser" you knew years ago went into management and is still employed and you think "Why oh why did I insist on staying technical!?!"
  
  --
  RIP America
  July 4, 1776 - September 11, 2001
4. Re:Back in the days by Ironhandx · 2010-10-22 03:35 · Score: 1
  
  Mod parent up.
  This has happened to so many people its ridiculous. Its actually gone to the point where Governments should start writing extra tariff and tax laws into moving positions overseas for work that needs to be done in-country.
  That said, I do have a hard time finding qualified people but thats more a factor of geography than any real limiter. No one wants to move here, haha.
5. Re:Back in the days by Vreejack · 2010-10-22 03:42 · Score: 1
  
  I remember my father being really disappointed that I was studying dead-end stuff like programming back in 1982
  
  --
  "Will future ages believe that such stupid bigotry ever existed!" -- Ivanhoe
6. Re:Back in the days by Anonymous Coward · 2010-10-22 03:42 · Score: 0
  
  Coincidentally, I just this morning finally recycled my PC-XT clone that I bought in 1986. $1595 with 640KB RAM, 20MB hard drive, one floppy. State of the art. I also bought a copy of Turbo Pascal at the time and was in hog heaven. There's something to be said for the metal discipline of coding complex programs that are small enough and efficient enough to run in a small memory footprint. I thought I was the luckiest guy in the world when I got hired to actually write programs for these things. "You want to *pay* me to do this? Really?"
  (Still have my Kaypro 10, but alas no longer have my original Osborne I.)
7. Re:Back in the days by gstoddart · 2010-10-22 03:46 · Score: 1
  
  How on earth did this get passed the web filters?
  
  I'm pretty sure you could put far more profane things into a comment and it would stick.
  I don't think there's as much filtering as you think -- I've seen most of the major swear words used on Slashdot. penis is comparatively tame.
  I bet you could post the "seven words", which I leave as an exercise to someone else ...
  
  --
  Lost at C:>. Found at C.
8. Re:Back in the days by Anonymous Coward · 2010-10-22 03:52 · Score: 0
  
  Both true.
  The market is saturated and also its a fad.
  However it depends what constitutes a fad :)
  PC's have only been with us 30 years or so. In the scale of things as compared with the steam engine which has been around for hundreds of years.
  Pc's will be gone in another 10-15 years to be replaced by phones/pdas/pads , computers will write more source code and the world will end in 2053.
  You can also still get a job as a steam engineer,
9. Re:Back in the days by CAIMLAS · 2010-10-22 04:30 · Score: 2, Interesting
  
  Yeah, what a perception change, eh?
  As someone who works in IT today, I'm tempted to tell my children the same thing - that programming and computers is a dead end - but for different reasons. Today, it's that the job competition is so stiff, and the pay is not commensurate with the responsibility, experience, knowledge and stress.
  On the other hand, what else is there for a technically inclined youth? Electrician?
  
  --
  ~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
10. Re:Back in the days by SuperQ · 2010-10-22 04:32 · Score: 1
  
  I had a similar experience when I wanted to know more about UNIX systems. The funny thing is he continues to be a MS fanboy. This is slightly understandable since he works in business software systems.
  I wonder if he still thinks snowboarding is a fad.
11. Re:Back in the days by Anonymous Coward · 2010-10-22 04:48 · Score: 0
  
  Don't blame outsourcing, blame having 20 years experience and still being a code-monkey. Your job should be "business analyst" by now - yeah, cringe at the title, but the point is to apply that experience towards requirements analysis and planning, and let the kids waste time in actual IDEs.
12. Re:Back in the days by Firethorn · 2010-10-22 04:58 · Score: 1
  
  On the other hand, what else is there for a technically inclined youth? Electrician?
  A good electrician has the advantages that most of his work can't be outsourced, he's always needed, and perhaps due to our 'COLLEGE COLLEGE COLLEGE' cry, a good electrician can make comperable wages to many with college degrees, and that's only working a 40 hour week, no overtime. Add in some and the effective pay goes way up.
  Then add in that an electrician gets a good amount of exercise and movement just doing his job and he might even be healthier than a college degreed desk jockey, and that's without having to pay for a gym membership and spend personal time working out.
  There's issues with illegal labor, but for a while my brother was making more money fixing the work of electrical workers with questionable immigration status than running original wiring.
  BTW, if you buy a house in Florida I recommend having the wiring checked *CAREFULLY*. He's found things like 20 amp circuits run with 14 gauge wire - where it's 12 leaving the breaker box, 14 once it hits the first junction, crossed hot/neutrals, unhooked grounding wires, etc... A lot of the times he was called in AFTER the wiring melted or started a fire, and that gets expensive.
  
  --
  I don't read AC A human right
13. Re:Back in the days by Anonymous Coward · 2010-10-22 05:12 · Score: 0
  
  Where is "here"?
14. Re:Back in the days by jmizrahi · 2010-10-22 05:19 · Score: 1
  
  Are you seriously suggesting that you can think of no other technical field besides programmer and electrician? How about physicist? Chemist? Biologist? Engineer? And of course, within each of those fields are a thousand subfields...
15. Re:Back in the days by Mister+Whirly · 2010-10-22 05:22 · Score: 1
  
  Shit
  Piss
  Fuck
  Cunt
  Cocksucker
  Motherfucker
  Tits
  
  --
  "But this one goes to 11!"
16. Re:Back in the days by chthon · 2010-10-22 05:27 · Score: 1
  
  Elektromechanics.
17. Re:Back in the days by ginbot462 · 2010-10-22 05:51 · Score: 1
  
  Where is "here"?
  It's where you are.
  
  --
  Atlas Shrugged : Thematic Story :: Battlefield Earth : Organized Religion
18. Re:Back in the days by thetoadwarrior · 2010-10-22 07:01 · Score: 1
  
  And what if you want to continue writing code? No one tells a carpenter they're a loser if they don't move onto managing younger carpenters and perhaps software quality would be better if we would value experience rather than low-cost inexperience.
19. Re:Back in the days by plcurechax · 2010-10-22 07:32 · Score: 1
  
  That depends, not everyone is good at, or prefers dealing with the analyst role. For many medium and small firms they don't even have designated analysts because many strong programmers don't function well in purely that role.
  Anyhow, I know programmers-turn-whatever adaptable types that were laid off from IBM and others regardless.
  Thankfully, my employer can't outsource due to business nature, and our customer depends upon us to manage so much of their own business (process, assets, strategy) that we don't expect to go away anytime soon.
20. Re:Back in the days by VGR · 2010-10-22 08:13 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  Don't blame outsourcing, blame having 20 years experience and still being a code-monkey. Your job should be "business analyst" by now - yeah, cringe at the title, but the point is to apply that experience towards requirements analysis and planning, and let the kids waste time in actual IDEs.
  
  You are a major part of the problem. What I see in your words is that all developers are identical to entry-level code monkeys. In your mind, someone who spends decades becoming an excellent software engineer is worthless; the only worthwhile use of his time would have been learning to be a manager.
  This is the real reason managers are so willing to outsource: they think everyone who can make code compile is equivalent, whether their experience is one month or twenty years. In the context of that belief, it makes sense to send the labor overseas.
  I'll admit, though, that any engineer who's no better than he was twenty years ago has only himself to blame. (And I've met at least one who fits that description.)
  
  --
  The Internet is full. Go away.
21. Re:Back in the days by eriqk · 2010-10-22 08:24 · Score: 1
  
  Congratulations! you just invented the Peter Principle!
22. Re:Back in the days by Anonymous Coward · 2010-10-22 08:28 · Score: 0
  
  Governments should start writing extra tariff and tax laws into moving positions overseas for work that needs to be done in-country.
  It seems that the GP is unhappy that incompetent people took over their jobs. The question isn't how to stop the outsourcing, it's why having crap people work on crap projects is still profitable.
  You can never legislate away stupidity.
23. Re:Back in the days by Stiletto · 2010-10-22 09:30 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  It's because in the world of commercial software,
  1. software doesn't have to be perfect
  2. software doesn't have to be ultra-efficient
  3. software doesn't have to be well-engineered
  4. software doesn't have to have a good design
  5. software doesn't have to compile clean
  Something just has to be delivered. On time and under budget. It doesn't often even matter what that "something" is or if it even works.
24. Re:Back in the days by Capt.DrumkenBum · 2010-10-22 10:34 · Score: 1
  
  No one expects the Spanish Inquisition. Sorry I meant to type, No one expects to be outsourced to India.
  
  --
  If I were God, wouldn't I protect my churches from acts of me?
25. Re:Back in the days by Anonymous Coward · 2010-10-22 20:45 · Score: 0
  
  Actually there's a give-away mid way in that post. What's happening is the poster gets turned away as too old. Companies with no idea how to hire pick 20-30 somethings for lack of an ability to actually appraise skills. That's illegal anywhere with decent employment laws, and in my country it's now a large proportion of all employment law payouts.
  "Why didn't you hire Joe here?" "He's way too old". "Bzzt, $50k compensation to Joe". "Why didn't you hire Sarah?" "She's uh, too experienced?" "Bzzt. $50k compensation to Sarah". "Why didn't you hire Barry?" "We.. er.. he didn't have the skills?" "What skills?" "We needed a Python programmer" "He IS a Python programmer" "Oh, fuck" "$50k compensation".
  Every time you throw away the CV of someone qualified because they seemed too old, then hire someone less qualified, you risk court action. Now a guy who got turned down for two jobs but got the third probably won't look into it. But anyone getting ignored and turned away time after time is going to start researching. Who did get that job I was after? A guy with no relevant skills who knows the owner? Time to call a lawyer.
None survived ... by PPH · 2010-10-22 02:50 · Score: 4, Funny

... past Dec 31, 1999.

--
Have gnu, will travel.
1. Re:None survived ... by Nadaka · 2010-10-22 03:03 · Score: 1
  
  That is 2 weeks later than my graduation date with my first computer science degree... DOH!
  After a few years of manual labor, I went back and got another one... Just in time for the recession... DOH!
  Note: I did manage to ride this one out though, even if 2 out of 3 employers of mine have gone bankrupt in the last 3 years.
High level of quality by Anonymous Coward · 2010-10-22 02:59 · Score: 0

That means we can know everybody and talk and share tools and maintain a high level of quality.
Irony, yes?
1. Re:High level of quality by somersault · 2010-10-22 03:04 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  Yep - he seems to be describing Open Source development, rather than Microsoft.
  
  --
  which is totally what she said
2. Re:High level of quality by abigor · 2010-10-22 03:09 · Score: 1
  
  I guess you were working at MS back in the '80s to make such a comparison. Can you share any other gems from that era with us?
3. Re:High level of quality by somersault · 2010-10-22 03:36 · Score: 1
  
  Huh? My post was a joke pointing out how the atmosphere he describes MS had in the 80s is much more like a modern open-source project than modern day Microsoft.
  MS now has over 130,000 employees, and probably at least 200 people just working on Microsoft Word alone (programming, testing, managing, etc), which is larger than the entirety of Microsoft was back then.
  
  --
  which is totally what she said
4. Re:High level of quality by abigor · 2010-10-22 04:59 · Score: 1
  
  Sorry, I totally misunderstood - I thought you were implying that MS in the '80s was not what he described, when in fact it was just that. My apologies.
  However, having contributed to lots of projects from Gentoo to Debian to Asterisk, I will say that not only did I not know any of my fellow contributors other than by the occasional email conversation, I have no idea what they even looked like. The atmosphere of early MS was like a startup - a very close atmosphere that builds some pretty intense relationships, nothing like open source in my opinion.
5. Re:High level of quality by Anonymous Coward · 2010-10-22 06:57 · Score: 0
  
  MSFT has more like 90,000 employees.
  The weirdest thing about MSFT of late is it doesn't really feel like one company. It's more like a bunch of fiefdoms, with petty political battles between them. Culture in these fiefdoms can vary a lot. Some of them are freewheeling, startup-resembling types. Others are very entrenched, very cautious about taking on things deemed potentially disruptive.
Agile by digitaldc · 2010-10-22 03:13 · Score: 4, Interesting

"Most of these programmers had (and have) a programming methodology that today would be called Agile. They mostly created a prototype that worked, and kept adding functionality until it was ready to ship. They worked iteratively in small teams. And, as Bricklin's current thoughts indicate, these developers were always cognizant that at some point you have to quit adding to the software and send it out the door. I found myself wondering how many readers imagine that "Agile" is something new."

Duke Nukem Forever, are you listening???
The implementation of plaid shirts also seems to be a pre-requisite for effective programming.

--
He who knows best knows how little he knows. - Thomas Jefferson
1. Re:Agile by chvyzl1 · 2010-10-22 03:24 · Score: 1
  
  "The implementation of plaid shirts also seems to be a pre-requisite for effective programming." - Thats hilarious :D
Good Old Day? by Anonymous Coward · 2010-10-22 03:15 · Score: 5, Interesting

I was hardware guy in a computer store in the mid 70's. Bill Gate was a guest speaker at 1 of the computer club meetings we hosted, It was in the early days of the Apple II and mostly we sold S-100 systems (Altair, Cromemco, Processor Technology...)
Bill gates whined aboout making 3 dollars and hour on Altair Basic because everybody just passed around the paper tape. He tried to convince us that he thought that software should be bundled with the hardware. We booed him off the stage.
I remember people coming in and asking to by a Visicalc computer, We always got a chuckle out of it when we had to explain they wanted an Apple .
Mostly what we were interested in was getting a program by Ward Christensen called CBBS working. It ran in an Altair with a Cromemco ZPU board using an Intertec Superbrain terminal with a couple Wangco 8 inch floppys and 48 K of Thinker Toys memory. This 1 Toy bar far had more effect on the world than anything else I remember. Ward was in Chicago and We had a guy named Kieth Peterson with us
You would have to use a program Ward made called Xmodem with a modem and dial up the store.
Now get off my lawn!
1. Re:Good Old Day? by abigor · 2010-10-22 05:00 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  Why the heck don't people like you post more often? I love hearing this stuff.
2. Re:Good Old Day? by blair1q · 2010-10-22 05:27 · Score: 1
  
  Most of them are dead or living in Scottish castles or on private islands. /. is for people who use keyboards.
3. Re:Good Old Day? by Anonymous Coward · 2010-10-22 06:09 · Score: 0
  
  The state of the Scottish broadband.. shivers go down my spine as I think about moors and fibres.
4. Re:Good Old Day? by evilviper · 2010-10-22 09:48 · Score: 2, Interesting
  
  Why the heck don't people like you post more often? I love hearing this stuff.
  In the past 2-3 years, there has been an absolute flood of new blood into /., which was either caused by, or resulted in the shift away from realy technical stories, and into more flambait political stories. The moderation system, as well, seems to have been overwhelmed by this flood, and an inordinant number of good comments get lost in the noise, while loud and ignorant me-too comments get all the points. And sadly, the editors here not only aren't trying to change things for the better, but seem to revel in undercutting their base for increasing click-through rates. Clearly, there haven't been enough stories on global warming recently...
  Not to single him out as the single raindrop responsible for said flood, but I happen to be dealing with one such loud and ignorant new user right now: http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1833190&cid=33985468
  I've often considered leaving in recent times, but I've rode through worse problems on /. repeatedly before, and am still hoping this one will be temporary as well.
  The friends/foes system is really the only reason I've stayed this long. It at least ensures I'll see some insightful comments from a handful of long-time regulars like myself, and can drop the flamers and trolls that regularly get points. Still it's a much smaller pool of intelligence, and nowhere near as good a public discussion forum as it was a few short years ago.
  So there's your answer. Want more insightful user feedback? Go start up a new Slashdot, with better leadership, and a focus on quality over pure click-through ad numbers.
  
  --
  Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
5. Re:Good Old Day? by mattack2 · 2010-10-22 10:31 · Score: 1
  
  Bill gates whined aboout making 3 dollars and hour on Altair Basic because everybody just passed around the paper tape.
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Letter_to_Hobbyists
6. Re:Good Old Day? by Anonymous Coward · 2010-10-22 10:45 · Score: 0
  
  You are exactly right. I abandoned my user name years ago because of ridicule i received by people that did not have a clue what I was talking about and thought they were the 'expert' in the field.
  responses like the following one are a rare event.
  
  Why the heck don't people like you post more often? I love hearing this stuff.
  Maybe I will create a new user account and post more frequently in the future.
  The thing i hated the most are the grammer and spelling nazis. I learned to type with 2 fingers when you had to build your own keyboard, and I still type with 2 fingers 50 years later.
  If you can read and underdtand what i am saying then it seems to me to be good enuf
Chvyzl1 by chvyzl1 · 2010-10-22 03:16 · Score: 1

Anyone ever look in "bbs the documentary" Not exactly PC programming, but very informative. Atari, Apple II, Commodore 64 and others; great DVD.
Superbrain by tekrat · 2010-10-22 03:33 · Score: 1

Ah man. I loved the Intertec... One of the most useful machines of that era... Except that when it locked up, you had to remember to remove the floppies from the drive before you rebooted, or else you destroyed the boot block. For it's time, it was a very fast system, and the screen was better than most.

--
If telephones are outlawed, then only outlaws will have telephones.
Microsoft press had some good books by fermion · 2010-10-22 03:34 · Score: 4, Interesting

From the books that the MS people published, it is clear that they theoretically knew how to write code. That they could get functional operating systems and applications programs out the door indicated that they could manage large projects.
I remember reading books like Solid Code and understanding how to put together a program, not just write functions that would compile. MS Press filled the time between the old time books like Composite Structured Design and the Mythical Man Month and more contemporary books like the Pragmatic Programmer. What I saw, however, was that MS was not moving forward with modern techniques and design patterns. At least from the outside, it appeared that they were stuck in the 80's.
Nevertheless, one cold do worse than reading these books as a basis in programming, not just coding.

--
"She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
My grandfather... by rAiNsT0rm · 2010-10-22 03:34 · Score: 2, Interesting

Pretty cool story: My grandfather worked in tool and die for PPG (back then it still stood for, Pittsburgh Plate Glass) and they had a super rudimentary "CNC machine" that used punch cards for coordinates in straight lines only. He had zero knowledge of computers but he did figure out how, within the limitations, he could plot enough points to create arcs and essentially circles. It was a huge improvement that teams of "programmers" had been working on unsuccessfully. He never even mentioned it to anyone until I was in college going for a CS degree and I was floored, he figured no one would understand or care since it seemed trivial.

--
http://teasphere.wordpress.com - A little spot of tea
layers of abstraction by Anonymous Coward · 2010-10-22 03:34 · Score: 1, Interesting

Back in my day, which was still much later than the true pioneers, we worked real close to the machine... Want to put a character on the screen? Hell, it was simple.. Tell the character drawing routine the row and column and the 7-bit character code and easy as JSR, that character would appear on the screen. Want to do some animation? Heck, super easy. Shim the address of the character ROM tables with a RAM address then reload the characters bit by ragged bit... Color was simple and just a matter of setting the appropriate RGB values across three pages of memory. You could even do some awesome animations with XOR routines and clever masking. Want to draw a circle? We did it the manly way with Bressenham routines written directly in assembler....
All these layers now.. Heck, a modern OS has a dozen layers of abstraction before a character gets drawn on screen...
I'm not complaining though... Imagine trying to write a word processor or a browser if you still had to worry about how to display a PNG image or write directly to display memory...
But I miss those days when one could grok a machine and its OS.
Much later in my career I got my hands on an Atari ST. You want to know how those layers hid the true speed of the machine? Well, TOS/GEM was notoriously sub-optimal in certain routines. Character drawing was one of them. It gave the opportunity for third parties to re-write some character drawing routines and sell them. Scrolling a 2000 line document in the un-optimized version may take minutes. With the optimized code it dropped to seconds...
So sitting in front of a 2.6+ GhZ machine with 4 cores, 8G of RAM, I feel that man.. imagine what I could DO if my little brain could wrap itself around the complexity of this massive OS...
1. Re:layers of abstraction by blair1q · 2010-10-22 05:29 · Score: 2, Insightful
  
  imagine what I could DO if my little brain could wrap itself around the complexity of this massive OS...
  Yeh. And then add in the several hundred parallel cores in your video card...
  I'm pretty good at wonky stuff and I just sort of stare at the computer sometimes wondering how to fill it up.
2. Re:layers of abstraction by TheLink · 2010-10-22 06:30 · Score: 1
  
  Tell the character drawing routine the row and column and the 7-bit character code and easy as JSR, that character would appear on the screen.
  The Apple II was even simpler than that. You just wrote a byte in a memory address in the screen range (0x400-0x7ff was the default IIRC) and a character would appear on the screen.
  Want to do graphics? Similar thing, but you read or write to certain memory addresses to change the graphics mode, then you store bytes create blocks or pixels.
  It's because of Woz - most stuff was done in software to save on hardware. Sound, I/O (disk, tape, joystick/paddle).
  --
  
  Too many replies beneath your current threshold
3. Re:layers of abstraction by GameboyRMH · 2010-10-22 07:03 · Score: 1
  
  Wow, that makes programming Ataris in BASIC seem like writing Python in comparison 8(
  
  --
  "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
4. Re:layers of abstraction by Anonymous Coward · 2010-10-22 08:08 · Score: 0
  
  Tell the character drawing routine the row and column and the 7-bit character code and easy as JSR, that character would appear on the screen.
  The Apple II was even simpler than that. You just wrote a byte in a memory address in the screen range (0x400-0x7ff was the default IIRC) and a character would appear on the screen.
  Want to do graphics? Similar thing, but you read or write to certain memory addresses to change the graphics mode, then you store bytes create blocks or pixels.
  It's because of Woz - most stuff was done in software to save on hardware. Sound, I/O (disk, tape, joystick/paddle).
  He also "Didn't know what he was doing" compared to the accepted methods at the time. He had to come up with some pretty clever solutions to some of the problems.
Peter Norton? by BetaRelease · 2010-10-22 04:22 · Score: 5, Insightful

Where is Peter Norton? His Norton Utilities was the greatest set of utilities then -- especially Unerase!
1. Re:Peter Norton? by Mad-Bassist · 2010-10-22 04:37 · Score: 1
  
  Oh yes. I had those in my Windows 95B years, and even bought his book on Windows architecture. Those were the days.
  
  --
  "The only legitimate use of a computer is to play games." - Eugene Jarvis
2. Re:Peter Norton? by Esther+Schindler · 2010-10-24 01:39 · Score: 1
  
  Norton wasn't in the book. If I had started with my own list of "people who defined the microcomputer industry," I could have included a LOT of folks who had a major impact. It would have been a long list. Not just Peter Norton (who's a major art collector now, didja know that?) but also Philippe Kahn (who would have been fun to write about -- he went on to invent the camera phone and has continued to be fascinating... and also I'm still in touch with him so would have been able to do an interview relatively easily). But the article as-is has several tl;dr comments elsewhere, and one has to stop *sometime.* That's why I began with a pre-created list (i.e. the book), which also gave me the advantage of long interviews in which they talked about what they cared about. (For Philippe, I'd have to go back to my CompuServe BORLAND forum archives.)
How about Eugene Jarvis? by Mad-Bassist · 2010-10-22 04:35 · Score: 1

Sure, he wasn't a PC programmer, but his work at Williams from the pinball to videogame eras were an inspiration!

--
"The only legitimate use of a computer is to play games." - Eugene Jarvis
1. Re:How about Eugene Jarvis? by Anonymous Coward · 2010-10-22 07:03 · Score: 0
  
  Indeed.
  I still can't believe how many shapes they (him and Demar) pushed around using a 6809 on Robotron.
  Dude could optimize a NOP.
2. Re:How about Eugene Jarvis? by Anonymous Coward · 2010-10-22 07:46 · Score: 0
  
  there were 2 custom bitblitter chips on the rom board that did most of the moving of stuff
3. Re:How about Eugene Jarvis? by Mad-Bassist · 2010-10-24 22:58 · Score: 1
  
  [Dude could optimize a NOP.]
  Heh heh. I like that!
  Let's see... directly hacking a machine code that involves a two-byte address to the faster zero-page version so it's only one-byte, and inserting a NOP into the extra space so the machine doesn't crash... I always wondered if that instruction had a purpose.
  I'd love to see the source for Robotron. I'll bet it's some of the most elegant code ever.
  Damn, I'm showing my age.
  
  --
  "The only legitimate use of a computer is to play games." - Eugene Jarvis
Finally! by Call+Me+Black+Cloud · 2010-10-22 04:39 · Score: 2, Insightful

I always wondered what happened to Bill Gates!

Wait, the article doesn't say anything about him but "duh". Nice bit of journalism, guys.
1. Re:Finally! by blair1q · 2010-10-22 05:34 · Score: 2, Interesting
  
  He dropped out of college and now he goes around volunteering at food banks and health clinics.
2. Re:Finally! by rubycodez · 2010-10-22 08:02 · Score: 1
  
  and promoting eugenics, by which he says we should get the population down to 1 million people. not to include his own relatives or offspring, of course.
3. Re:Finally! by Chapter80 · 2010-10-22 09:04 · Score: 1
  
  and promoting eugenics, by which he says we should get the population down to 1 million people. not to include his own relatives or offspring, of course.
  Without any references, I had to go find some myself.
  I can't find anything that says what you are saying. I can find a lot of people pointing out that he's promoting eugenics, and citing a speech. But I didn't interpret the speech anything like your interpretation.
  For the record (you can watch the YouTube Propaganda link above, for his actual words), he said something like:
  
  First we got population. The world today has 6.8 billion people. That's headed up to about 9 billion. Now if we do a really great job on new vaccines, health care, reproductive health services, we lower that by perhaps 10 or 15 percent.
  I interpret this that we will experience in 3rd world countries what we have experienced in 1st world countries - that people will have less babies, if infant mortality goes down. And it will result in a population that's less than our current projections.
  I am not a big Bill Gates supporter. But I think that the leap that he's promoting eugenics (based on my limited research is just plain silly and paranoid.
  Send me better links. I want to be informed!
4. Re:Finally! by blair1q · 2010-10-22 10:15 · Score: 1
  
  He's also conducting experiments cross-breeding humans with chimpanzees.
  (beat)
  http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4860483760049380308
5. Re:Finally! by Anonymous Coward · 2010-10-22 18:08 · Score: 0
  
  Bill Gates is responsible for Dubyah and the Obamination??
Arrghh deploy != implement by Anonymous Coward · 2010-10-22 04:59 · Score: 0

Sigh. Programmers should know what "implementation" really means, and very few programmers implement a plaid shirt. They deploy a plaid shirt, according to normal installation procedures. They implement a beard, or the stains on the shirt, using their own creative powers.
It is only silly IT people who think they "implement" something every time they use it. They probably think they cook when they place an order at a restaurant too...
Computing journalists by abigor · 2010-10-22 05:05 · Score: 1

I wonder what happened to some of the guys who wrote articles in the magazines I devoured in my youth - David Ahl, founder of Creative Computing, or Jim Butterworth of The Transactor fame. I think JB is dead, actually.
I was digging around at my parents' place and I found several years' worth of Transactors, most of them in good shape. I also have a copy of the Complete C64 Inner Space Anthology somewhere - I wonder what the eBay-ability of these things are.
1. Re:Computing journalists by Gramie2 · 2010-10-22 06:30 · Score: 2, Informative
  
  Yes, I'm pretty sure Jim Butterworth died a few years ago. I know someone in the C64 scene (it still exists!) and he spent a fair amount of time with Jim attending C64 conferences.
  Yes, I prized my Transactor magazines and ISA. So much great information, presented cleanly and with a desire to share.
2. Re:Computing journalists by Anonymous Coward · 2010-10-22 14:39 · Score: 0
  
  I had the pleasure of a 1-on-1 meeting with Jim in the UK during Commodore's hay-day. He 'hacked' Adventure for me so I could get past that Maze of Twisty Turning Passages, or was it a Twisty Maze or ... anyway, very pleasant, nice person who shared such a huge amount of technical knowledge.
3. Re:Computing journalists by Esther+Schindler · 2010-10-24 01:47 · Score: 1
  
  Don Lancaster has released a free PDF of his classic RTL Cookbook. No catch, you can just download it. (I learned about it from Jeff Duntemann, editor of PC Tech Journal, which you probably read too (and at whose feet I learned my craft); Jeff still blogs.)
  I'm not sure what happened to David Ahl, but it's likely that some of my friends are in touch. Wayne Rash might know.
  It's nice that you want to know. I tend to imagine that nobody cares about us old fart journalists.
Well ... by arthurpaliden · 2010-10-22 05:12 · Score: 1

I'm sitting on a nice warm beach watching the young ladies play beach volley ball.

--
Undetectable Steganography? Yep, there's an app fo
Sidebar: The plastic molds by RogueWarrior65 · 2010-10-22 07:35 · Score: 1

I know the guy who designed the molds for the original IBM PC. He tells the tail of IBM suits coming to him to get the molds made. He asked them how many parts they planned to make off the mold. Their answer: 150,000. Ten copies of the mold later, IBM had farmed out the production work to ten different parts of the country to keep up with the demand.
Fred Fish by Anonymous Coward · 2010-10-22 07:37 · Score: 0

I'm not sure Fred counts as one of the pioneers, but he was hugely influential in the 1980's personal computing scene.
Unfortunately, Fred died in 2007. By all accounts of those who knew him personally, an awesome guy.
Excuse me? by Anonymous Coward · 2010-10-22 08:03 · Score: 0

"The Apple II was even simpler than that. You just wrote a byte in a memory address in the screen range (0x400-0x7ff was the default IIRC) and a character would appear on the screen."
Gee, just like writing bytes (characters and attributes) to segment 0xb000 (monochrome adapter), 0xb800 (color adapter) or 0xa000 (VGA) on a PC.
Damn kids these days...
Apple, eh? by Anonymous Coward · 2010-10-22 08:41 · Score: 0

If only PCs were that simple.
Start/Run/cmd
debug
e b000:0
B800:0000 20.44 07.02 20.41 07.03 20.4d 07.04 20.4e 07.05
B800:0008 20.20 07.06 20.4b 07.07 20.49 07.08 20.44 07.09
B800:0010 20.53 07.0a 20.2e 07.0b 20.2e 07.0c 20.2e 07.0d
And which one have Wikipedia entries? by terremoto · 2010-10-22 13:23 · Score: 1

I got the Programmers at Work book recently (picked it up in a second hand book sale). After reading the articles I looked up a few Wikipedia entries. John Page is not there at all. And PFS:FILE is mentioned only in passing in an entry on pfs:Write [sic] - in which Page is entirely absent.
close by Anonymous Coward · 2010-10-23 01:31 · Score: 0

Alternative energy, both centralized commercial scale and decentralized individual home/business/building scale. It is all local, can't be outsourced. Development, installation, maintenance.
I'm an old fart and am toying with the idea myself now, getting into this business, as there are no local sources to me whatsoever.
Humans want and need more energy, full stop. A business that isn't going away and just keeps getting better as in demand rising daily.
That's all hardware, now there are biofuels, which involve agriculture and biology with advanced hardware.
Electric vehicles
That's enough to get you and your kids thinking perhaps.