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Ergonomic Mechanical-Switch Keyboard?

dotancohen writes "As wear and tear on my hands builds up, I find that I need an ergonomic (split) keyboard. It seems the vast majority of available ergonomic models are either crippled with dome-switches or have unusual designs, which place many critical keys under the thumbs (I cannot use my right thumb). The one normal-appearing contender, the Northgate Ergonomic Evolution, seems to be noisier than even the Model M — in fact, it echoes! Programmers and hobbyists geeky enough to be here today: what do you type on?"

44 of 310 comments (clear)

  1. I can tell you what I don't do by Dishwasha · · Score: 2, Funny

    I don't type on a freakin' iPad touchscreen keypad.

    1. Re:I can tell you what I don't do by somersault · · Score: 2, Informative

      In the spirit of the above comment, I'd like to point out that I don't type on a typewriter, newspaper, carpet, the wind, or indeed, a pink zebra.

      --
      which is totally what she said
    2. Re:I can tell you what I don't do by somersault · · Score: 2, Funny

      Even better, I typed that post out on a touchscreen keyboard.

      --
      which is totally what she said
  2. Bad technique by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Normal keyboard. Been doing it for 35 years now with no problems. Hate 'ergonomic' keyboards.

    1. Re:Bad technique by hairyfeet · · Score: 3, Informative

      I have to go with this. I have been typing since the 80s and despite having a crippled finger on one hand just by using normal typing techniques and not the "hunched over the keyboard" posture my hands work just fine. If given a choice I prefer the older "clacky" keyboards, and have a fondness for older Compaq and MSFT keyboards. The fat lip at the bottom of the keys make them comfortable to rest your wrists on and the clack lets you know you've hit the key without having to constantly look up.

      If he is gonna go for one of those awful ergonomic keyboards he is gonna find that most of the choices suck, simply because most folks hate them. I frankly couldn't give those things away here at the shop and hated when I got a machine in that had one. Better to just use good posture and take the occasional break when needed IMHO. I've found watching people type on ergonomics they tend to try to "force their speed up" which ends up giving them just as much trouble than if they'd have just used a regular keyboard and took breaks. And I have yet to see anyone that could type half as fast with a split keyboard than they could with a regular keyboard. Give me an old Compaq, IBM, or MSFT standard keyboard any day!

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    2. Re:Bad technique by geekprime · · Score: 2, Informative

      Ya, I had the same problem!
      Both hands bad. Exactly as you call it, "classic carpal tunnel". The MD's (all 3 of them). recommended surgery.
      While hemming and hawing about it a friend of mine convinced me to go see his naprapath (ya, I know, one step less legit than chiropractors, but I was desperate to make the pain stop!)
      He gave me (yup, did not even charge me for the visit or anything) a pair of wrist braces and told me to wear them when I slept and when I was typing.

      Dude, I gotta tell ya, 10 years later, no surgery, no pain, it's a fucking miracle!
      There are times that I still need to wear them at night.
      It turns out that I (in my sleep) fold my hands back towards my wrists, under my head. This cuts off the nerves and inflames them making them cause pain anytime, at even the slightest provocation, typing, driving, biking, motorcycling, anything.

      It may not work for you but a pair of bowling braces (with the insert to keep you from bending your hands towards your wrists) are MUCH cheaper than the alternatives AND they don't leave scars!

      Oh, and whenever I manage to throw out my back, I go see my naprapath.

    3. Re:Bad technique by damien_kane · · Score: 2, Insightful

      (which is kinda what happens when you hit a dog at 65MPH+ and take a header and decide it is better to damage your hands than your face)

      s/dog/curb/
      s/65mph/50mph/i
      I chose face
      My face still looks fine (didn't even need reconstructive surgery), and my fingers work fine.
      A few minor psychoses, but who these days really is truly sane?

      Let that be a lesson to future generations; next time choose face, scars (if you get them) are sexy, battle-wounds that you can use to start interesting stories.
      Loss of dexterity has a significantly higher negative impact to your ability to function (as you've found out).

  3. Great Forum for Input Devices by slifox · · Score: 4, Informative

    I hate to point you elsewhere rather than provide an answer, but the GeekHack forum is a very rich source of information and reviews from people who know what to look for in a keyboard (or any input device), and they've probably reviewed every keyboard out there (and modified them). I don't use ergonomic keyboards, but I am very adamant about mechanical-switch keyboards that have just the right amount of tension and tactile/audible response.

    Check out the forum here:
    http://geekhack.org/forumdisplay.php?f=31

    There are also some interesting vertical keyboards like the SafeType and the Kinesis Freestyle Ascent, but they're kinda expensive and might take a bit of relearning.
    Here's a survey of ergonomic keyboards: http://nsx.underbase.org/db/kbd/keyboard-survey.htm

    Personally I use a DSI ASK-6600 and a Scorpius M10, and I like them both very much. The DSI keys need a bit more force to push, and it has the large "Enter" key I like from old Keytronix keyboards (as opposed to a large Backspace key and a repositioned backslash character, like the Scorpius and Model M have).

    These two keyboards probably don't appeal to you because they're not curved/natural keyboards. I avoid wrist problems while using a regular (straight) keyboard because I have a custom typing style, wherein my wrists are not angled when they rest on my "home row" (e.g. index fingers rest on V and N instead of F and J). This limits my upper bound of typing a bit (under 100wpm), but fast continuous typing will only get you so far in programming and sysadmin work, whereas wrists that don't hurt are quite nice... I also remap my CapsLock key to be another Ctrl, for easy one-handed reach to Ctrl+F1-F5/etc.

    While you're at it -- upgrade your mouse too! I found all my wrist problems went away when I moved to a Logitech Cordless Trackman (wish it was corded, but whatever). This has a finger-operated trackball and a thumb-operated left-click, which I find MUCH more accurate and comfortable than a thumb-operated trackball (e.g. most trackball mice on the market now). Trackball mice are usually considered to be more accurate than regular mice anyways. One of the big benefits here is the fact that your wrist isn't as twisted as with a regular mouse... if that's your main goal, there are also some expensive ergonomic vertical mice that might be comfortable.

    1. Re:Great Forum for Input Devices by Fluffeh · · Score: 4, Insightful

      While you're at it -- upgrade your mouse too! I found all my wrist problems went away when I moved to a Logitech Cordless Trackman

      I can't agree with this part of the post more. I generally find that in my work, I spend a great deal more time thinking and reading other documents rather than just typing - and while I am doing those things, I find that almost all of my interaction with the PC is done via mouse, with the occasional ALT-TAB etc. As a result, I use a Logitech MX Revolution which is very comfortable, accurate and supports my hand nicely.

      Unless you do actually type non-stop, I would say a good mouse is just as important as a good keyboard.

      --
      Moved to http://soylentnews.org/. You are invited to join us too!
    2. Re:Great Forum for Input Devices by compro01 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I agree. I love that mouse. Shame they stopped making them and the replacement for them just doesn't really match up.

      --
      upon the advice of my lawyer, i have no sig at this time
  4. Ergonomic Model M by raving+griff · · Score: 4, Informative

    Ergonomic Model Ms exist, but are incredibly hard to find. You may want to ask around, though. An old workplace of mine had one sitting around in the storage.

    1. Re:Ergonomic Model M by Dogun · · Score: 3, Informative

      Actually.

      So it turns out that one of the major injuries typists get is called RSI, and one of the major causes is that people leave their hands on the keyboard, and wind up tensing their wrists in order to keep their fingers from depressing keys. Without rest, this causes injury. One of the majorly GOOD things about these buckling spring boards is that they can support more weight.

      There's a couple of things going on with this 'ergo' idea - one part is visual, reflecting the key layout. Another part to do with the support of the hand and discouragement of behaviors that cause injury. It can be very easy to confuse the two.

      If you want to avoid injury, it seems like while some accessories like fancy chairs may help, the behavioral aspects are far less mystical:
      1) be healthy-ish to begin with
      2) avoid keeping your hands in a fixed position, and certainly not a strained one.
      3) move around from time to time, whether that means a new posture or talking a break.

      I used the Unicomp keyboards for a few years, but I've been through a few of them - the design simply does not adequately protect the board from spills, and if I ever buy another one I'm going to modify it before use to isolate the keywell from the circuits.

    2. Re:Ergonomic Model M by Low+Ranked+Craig · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I have a Unicomp Model M, and while it's not "ergonomic" it is most definitely easier on the wrists and the hands. I type faster, more accurately (though it doesn't help with spelling), and more comfortably than with most other keyboards, and at $80 I found it to be quite a bargain, since they seem to last for about 20 years or so...

      Life is too short to use a crappy keyboard, sit in a crappy chair or sleep on a crappy mattress. having items of high quality that work well will materially improve your life. If you sit all day at a computer, having a good keyboard and a good chair that is properly sized mean that at the end of the day you just feel better. Also having a good monitor that is sharp and clear will leave your eyes less strained. Sleeping on a good mattress means you will sleep deeper and will have better days. Life is also too shore to drink shitty coffee or eat crappy ice cream, but that's another post.

      Ditch the shitty keyboard that came with your Dell or your Mac and get something that works well. You won't be sorry, and besides, you'd just waste that $80 on strippers or something anyway...

      --
      I still cannot find the droids I am looking for...
  5. Keyboard love by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

    Natural Ergonomic keyboard (from Microsoft)
    http://www.microsoft.com/hardware/mouseandkeyboard/productdetails.aspx?pid=043

    The best a man can get...

    1. Re:Keyboard love by Kazoo+the+Clown · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Problem with this is, the newer ones appear to be more cheaply made-- I had one that lasted years just crap out, ordered a new one, and it lasted about two months before the keys started becoming unresponsive. Then I tried an Adesso model, but the feel really sucks.

    2. Re:Keyboard love by Tanktalus · · Score: 2, Informative

      This is exactly what I have. I do have to admit a few issues with it, though.

      1. The zoom "keys" don't work in Linux (yet?). The keyboard uses two USB identifiers, and this confuses Linux somehow. Thus far, not a show stopper as I don't really know what I'd assign to it anyway.
      2. The Calculator button doesn't seem to work in Linux. It's not that the key doesn't work - xev shows that the key is read and interpreted properly, and when I assign it to the kcalc command, the kde menu editor accepts it - it's that once it's been assigned, it still does launch. This has worked with earlier levels of kde/xorg, so there's a linux bug somewhere.

      Everything else works great for me. The fact that it's corded is a non-issue. I use this thing 8-12 hours a day, 5 days a week (plus a couple hours on the weekends), so cordless would have me going through batteries way too quickly anyway. Every once in a while, the usb acts up, but that has mostly gone away as pieces of the OS get upgraded (kernel modules for the most part, I think, though xorg may have had something to do with it).

    3. Re:Keyboard love by sosume · · Score: 2, Informative

      I LOVE that keyboard; I have two spares in my closet for the possibility that my current one breaks down. Never happened, ofcourse.
      Pros: - very good design
      - no wireless, fast response
      - does not break or fail

      Cons: some keys are hard to reach, for instance the '7' key is a bit tough
      - the 'extra' keys are useless, I never used the calc button and the browser and mail buttons are annoying if pressed by accident
      - the 'f' modifier (for the function keys' is useless.

  6. Text To Speech by cosm · · Score: 5, Funny

    I use text to speeches you looters. It is the rest! No worrying about miss-wiping the wrong bird and spit is always 1000 percent immaculate!

    --
    'We are trying to prove ourselves wrong as quickly as possible, because only in that way can we find progress.' RPF
    1. Re:Text To Speech by cvtan · · Score: 4, Funny

      That's the best description of a Salvatore Dali painting I've ever read!

      --
      Sorry, but gray text on gray background is making my eyes bleed.
    2. Re:Text To Speech by poor_boi · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You mean "speech to text," not "text to speech." There's a difference.

  7. Cherry Mx by dakrin9 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    It's not ergonomic per se, but the Filco Majestouch Tactile Touch Keyboard w/ Cherry MX switches is a great keyboard.

    Elite Keyboards is a good place to buy them at.

    You can read more about Mechanical Key switch keyboards here: Mechanical Key siwtch keyboards demystified

  8. the louder the better by zill · · Score: 2, Funny

    The one normal-appearing contender, the Northgate Ergonomic Evolution, seems to be noisier than even the Model M — in fact, it echoes!

    Isn't that a good thing?

    IMHO the louder the better. Keyboard noise level is the only metric my boss uses to measure my productivity since he's code illiterate. Thanks to my trusty model M, I have one of the best job in the world - cybering for a living.

  9. It's all about the Negative slope! by virtualXTC · · Score: 3, Interesting

    If you really want an ergonomic keyboard get one with a negative slope, I find this does more to relieve strain than just splitting the keys. Years ago Logitech use to resell one that you could get as various off brands that had flop tabs under the hand rest. These days, the only thing I can find in the microsoft natural series of keyboards. I have the wireless one at home, but the mouse is a bit clunky and I've already had to replace it once (one drop on the floor is all it took to render the scroll wheel unusable). I have the wired USB one at work, and just wish they'd make one without a faux leather wrist wrest as it can get a bit grimy.

    1. Re:It's all about the Negative slope! by arth1 · · Score: 2, Informative

      The problem with Microsoft's "ergonomic" keyboards is that they are made for people who have longer pinkies than index fingers. They slope the exact wrong way, forcing you to stretch more than you would with a normal keyboard.

      If you really want an ergonomic keyboard that's shaped for your fingers and not your palm, Maltron make some of the best. They're not cheap, though.

      But really, for most "normal" users, the best thing they can do is get a keyboard without a keypad on the right. Having to move the arm back and forth those four extra inches to reach the mouse is far more damaging than any of the typing. In addition, quite a few users end up with the keyboard casing centered in front of them, instead of the actual keyboard centered, which means the right hand reaches over to the left more than what's needed.

  10. truly ergonomic by Tsiangkun · · Score: 3, Informative

    It sounds like you are looking for this. Truly Ergonomic Keyboards

  11. Microsoft 4000 by Gohtar · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I like the Microsoft 4000 keyboard. I use it at home and work. I do get a lot of pinky finger cramps from a lot of copying and pasting. My only real gripe with it is that the 1-5 buttons across the top are not fully programmable. You can pick from a list of actions on what you want them to do.

    1. Re:Microsoft 4000 by ZipprHead · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Mod up, this is my favorite keyboard as well.

    2. Re:Microsoft 4000 by Darkness404 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      As far as I know though, that is a dome-switch and not mechanical-switch keyboard.

      --
      Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
    3. Re:Microsoft 4000 by pookemon · · Score: 3, Informative

      I agree with this. I have used one of these for a couple of years on my primary PC at home. I also use a Logitec Wave on one of my other PC's. Both are quite comfortable and I have no problem using them for hours on end (though the Wave does annoy me because of the stupid layout of the Del/Insert/PgUp etc. buttons - but you get used to that). IIRC the 4000 allows the "negative slope" that one other poster has mentioned. Re: the programmable buttons, I'm pretty sure you can change them to run whatever app you want - which is what they are for. With Win 7 though I don't use them (just pin what I want to the task bar. Not sure why the type of switch matters (dome/mechanical). If a keyboard is comfortable to use, then it's comfortable to use.

      --
      dnuof eruc rof aixelsid
  12. Half Height Ergo? by Gutspawn · · Score: 2, Interesting

    In a similar vein, I'd love to find a keyboard that matches the contours, layout, and tilt of the modern MS natural keyboard, but with laptop style half-height keys. I almost considered building one.

  13. Coding Horror... by FrankSchwab · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Jeff Atwood had a post on a remarkably similar subject last Friday:
    http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2010/10/the-keyboard-cult.html
    that references the geekhack site.

    --
    And the worms ate into his brain.
  14. Full sized laptop key style by eepok · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Before even owning a laptop/netbook, I fell in love with the low-depth, nearly silent click of laptop keyboard keys made for the full size keyboard. However, there's quite a number of people who like this, so it's not entirely easy to find them anymore.

    Counterintuitive? Definitely. You see, once all the millions of keyboard manufacturers noticed the trend, they started making short/shallow keys with the exact same switch as standard keyboards. So, while it looks like a laptop keyboard, they're quite frequently normal crap keyboards whose downward press, if slightly off-angle, produces a scrape within the switch that slows/messes up typing or completely blows a gaming experience.

    I can't buy keyboards online anymore because I just need to test it out myself. "Slime" and "Laptop style" just isn't enough to convince me.

    1. Re:Full sized laptop key style by stewartwb · · Score: 2, Interesting
      About a year ago, I switched from the Microsoft Ergonomic 4000 to the Logitech DiNovo Wireless Keyboard for Notebooks, which I believe matches your description of a full-size keyboard with laptop-style keys.

      The typing experience is superb! Although the layout is slightly different from the classic 104 key standard, I found I was able to touch type from day one, including cursor keys, I am also able to type faster and with less fatigue. I often prop up the front edge on a wrist rest to gain a reverse tilt, which helps with wrist strain.

      Although Logitech discontinued this model (I bought two for $20 at that time), they now offer two illuminated models with the same PerfectStroke key mechanism - one wired, one wireless, and both overpriced. I'm keeping an eye on DealNews to grab one when they briefly hit a reasonable price point.

  15. Kinesis Advantage by Chaostrophy · · Score: 3, Insightful

    http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/contoured.htm

    Granted, by default they have stuff done with your right thumb, but I believe the keyboard is fully remapable, so you can fix that. They don't say what kind of switches they use, but they are very clicky, with a nice feel. I have used them for years, and really like them.

    --
    Plato seems wrong to me today
    1. Re:Kinesis Advantage by dlgeek · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I love the Kinesis boards, but I wouldn't recommend one for the OP if he can't use his thumb. Yes, you can remap all the keys, but Kinesis boards already are on the short side of keys, and there's really nowhere to map them to. There are only 3 duplicated keys on the entire board: alt, ctrl and shift. Removing the right thumb pad would remove space, enter, one of each ctrl and alt, page up and page down. You could probably get away with mapping right shift to enter, but you'd have no where to put space, enter or page up/down.

  16. Amiga 4000 keyboard? by Twinbee · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I liked the feel of the Amiga 4000 keyboards back in the day. I wonder what key mechanism that used. I'm pretty sure it was responsive and tactile, but mercifully quiet.

    --
    Why OpalCalc is the best Windows calc
  17. Build one yourself? by gweihir · · Score: 2, Interesting

    You could get a cherry G80-3000 in one of the 3 characteristics (hard-click, soft-click or linear) in a layout of your choice. It has individual switches of excellent quality.

    Then arrange them on solder-dot epoxy PCB's just the way you like and wire them to the controller in the original matrix. This may take a day or two of work, but it will give you exactly what you need/want, and these cherry switches keep forever. For most keys, you should be able to keep the original key-caps, but standard-sized key-caps are also available for these switches.

    End result may not be too pretty and this is significant effort. On the other side, you would get exactly what you think you need and could even change things later.

    --
    Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
  18. fix your health not the keyboard! by lkcl · · Score: 5, Interesting

    i know this is going to sound strange - you asked one question but get an answer to another, but the root cause of the problem isn't the keyboard, it's the fact that you're hunched over it, tensed up, locking out the blood supply from your arms and screwing up your hands.

    to fix that, you should AT LEAST be doing the overarm stretch: stick hand straight up, bend elbow so that hand goes behind head with elbow still up in air, then take other hand onto elbow, pull and lean geeeently sideways so that entire side stretches

    you should also be doing "horse stance" from tai-ji, which is really quite complex to describe, but imagine that you're sat on a horse: your legs are apart, knees bent, and hands outstretched imagine holding reins _but_, the actual tai-ji "horse stance" has some quite complex and specific positions and purpose. the primary purpose is to stretch tendons on the *underside* of your arms and in fingers (forearms as well) as well as elevating the heart-rate.

    so, you have to push your elbows outwards so that your upper arms are 45 degrees from vertical, but forearms are absolutely horizontal. hands you have to imagine that you are holding two basket-balls, one in each, palms down but slightly elevated a fraction, fingers splayed as far wide as you can go.

    get it right and you should feel loots of tendons stretching under your armpits, at your elbow-forearm _and_ wrists _and_ the thumb and little finger tendons! and that's exactly what you need - to stretch out that which you've utterly cramped out and damaged.

    the horse-stance itself results in quite seriously elevated heart rate: you're bending your knees and staying there, so you should be breathing deeply and fully. stay there for as long as possible, increase until you get to 5 minutes. you will be surprised: horse stance for 5 minutes is one hell of a long time.

    the other one is the yoga position where you sit on the floor, put one leg bent into your crotch and the other straight out, then lean over and grab ankle (or as close as you can get it). with each breath out, go down a little further. DO NOT "shake". if you feel yourself shaking, BACK OFF.

    what i do with this yoga position is, rather than stay going down straight is i roll _sideways_ after a while, so that i get more stretch on the insides of my arms and side, which is exactly where you need the circulation increased, to get bloodflow back to your arms and fingers. repeat on the other side but come up SLOWLY - don't just try to jolt yourself out because you _will_ pull a muscle that way, especially at full stretch.

    all of these exercises are designed to increase the circulation on the _underside_ of your arms (at the top) as it's here which is actually causing the blood flow to decrease, toxins to build up, tension to happen and damage to occur.

    so - yeah. fuck the keyboard - get your health sorted out.

    1. Re:fix your health not the keyboard! by lkcl · · Score: 2, Interesting

      10 years ago i got the people at work to pay for a swivel chair and a split keyboard that was mounted on the arm-rests. it was well fucking cool. despite being a touch-typist for 15 years at that point i still found it took me 2 weeks to get used to typing on a keyboard that was out of sight: i learned quickly that even peripheral vision was getting me to move my hands to the right places. the funniest bit was the space-bar: there were two of them. but, i wasn't _quite_ the touch-typist i thought i was. so i would be tappity-tappity-BAMouch gently switch to using right thumb to press the space-bar instead of hitting unyielding plastic with the left... ... but by far and above the coolest thing was peoples' faces when they came into my cubicle. a 17-in monitor running 7 linux consoles at 80x50 (consolechars -f default8x9), with me sitting 6ft back because i had my feet up on the desk, typing at 170wpm on this weird fucking keyboard - the combination of apparent insolence, laid-back attitude with obvious signs of non-stop frenzied activity at distances that made their eyes water trying to discern what the fuck i was doing just... yeah - i enjoyed working there :)

  19. Re:a rancid by countSudoku() · · Score: 2, Interesting

    You can wash it in the top rack of the dishwasher, then dry the crap out of it; viola - clean keyboard. It got the sticky Pepsi out of an old USB keyboard I had, left it looking and typing like new. Except another other user removed all the screws and lost some, but otherwise totally harmless to the 'board.

    --
    This is the NSA, we're gonna geet U h@x0r5! Also, what is a h@x0r5?
  20. Re:And that's a good thing? by h4rr4r · · Score: 2

    Get over it. I have one in the office and at home. Some of us don't live in cubicles though.

  21. Re:And that's a good thing? by nabsltd · · Score: 2

    Man, anyone with a Model M that works in an office environment deserves a swift kick in the nuts. It's incredibly inconsiderate to the rest of your coworkers.

    The "silent" keyboard on my Dell at work rattles so much every time you type that it's louder than any keyclick.

    Seriously, unless you work in an office that is absolutely silent, keyboard noise is not an issue. I spent this afternoon having to listen to phone call on speakerphone from 3 offices down. I couldn't say anything like "please close your door" because the offender is "important". I really feel sorry for the people who were closer than me.

  22. Curls by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 2, Interesting

    get a 10 to 20 pound weight (it should feel light but tire you after 20-30 reps) and do forearm curls.
    Don't overbend the wrist.

    Part of your issue may be tendonitis in your forearms (which these exercizes exhaust and release).

    Also upright rowing (a lot of "wrist" issues are really shoulder/back issues) gain with medium weights (feels light- but tires you after 20-30 reps).

    --
    She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
  23. Real programmers don't need ergo keyboards by junglebeast · · Score: 2

    Real programmers have evolved on to see in dimly lit caverns typing on the QWERTY keyboard. I have to wear special corrective lenses to see in daylight. I get arthritis just thinking about typing less than 220 WPM, and walking upright may cause a herniated disk.