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Toshiba Begins Selling MacBook Air SSD
Lucas123 writes "Toshiba has made the solid state drive used in the new MacBook Air generally available for use by equipment manufacturers. At just 2.2mm thick, the company said the drive represents a new form factor that is about one-third the thickness of a thin hard disk drive and that is 42% smaller than even a mini-SATA SSD module. The new Blade X-gale SSD series has a maximum throughput of 220MB/sec. and can store up to 256GB of data."
Now where do I install it?
I've been pricing out a new laptop, and I've love to get one with SSDs, but DAMN they're expensive. I'd rather engineers focus on reducing manufacturing costs than making them smaller. A better headline would be "Toshiba SSD 1/3 the PRICE".
And, Microsoft needs to figure out that people want to stick an SSD and traditional hard drive in their laptops, so Windows needs better support for moving the Users directory (you can do it but it's "unsupported").
I swear to God...I swear to God! That is NOT how you treat your human!
So that whole "proprietary" thing was just a lie?
Living With a Nerd
At this form factor, can I squeeze a bunch into my standard HDD form-factor and get some kind of striping going?
Looks like different connectors than the standard SATA / micro SATA set, so it won't fit into the huge base of existing laptops. Too bad.
Put my fist through my alarm clock with its ding-dong death inside my ear. - The Blackjacks.
But wait...this just in...the new MacBook Air was just replaced 5 seconds ago by a thinner, faster, and better one!
He who knows best knows how little he knows. - Thomas Jefferson
That should be enough for anyone.
"The average reporter we talk to is 27 years old......They literally know nothing." - Ben Rhodes
Yawn. Why would I want this? Good for small form factor, but awful if you ever want a choice in which SSD you can buy or want to upgrade capacity.
And I know it's coming, so I'll just throw it out beforehand:
- I don't want a MBA with a slower SSD when I can buy a brand new generation Intel SSD on a PC which blows it away
- I want to be able to upgrade my SSD's capacity at some point
- I want to not have to buy a new computer in 3 years because Apple just bricked my data because it ran out of read/writes because OSX has no support for TRIM (seriously?)
Just because Apple uses it doesn't make it useful. I would argue most of what Apple does it pretty boneheaded. See above.
And btw, my 3 year old Core 2 Duo with a 7200 RPM boots just as fast as a MBA. It may be faster for a MBP owner because Apple decided to (really?) put a slow 5200 RPM HD in it. Maybe launching apps on my system takes a *fraction* longer, but once it's in RAM, it's instantaneous. Standard practice now is always keep everything running in memory now anyway and only close when you need to. So no issues ever there. /end rant
so with this tiny form factor, is there any way to install this inside a unibody macbook pro? I'd love to go SSD but want to keep a spinning drive for decent storage capacity, and don't want to lose my dvd drive.
come on OWC, make it happen! :)
dave
mSata was developed by the SATA-IO Group.
News from way back in 2009...
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Hi there!
:( In the meantime, current-gen SSDs from other manufacturers - like this Toshiba one - are actually significantly faster, as they're all using the Sandforce controllers...
You appear to have seen the words "MacBook Air" in the title and instantly jumped into defensive/anti-fanboy mode.
Unfortunately, those threads were last week. This is about a new SSD form factor being released by Toshiba, for use in *other computers*. Please respond appropriately, and attempt to twist your arguments and rants to match this new information, preferably ranting against both Toshiba and Apple? kthx.
PS I'm also waiting for the Intel G3, but last I heard it's still months away
To anyone considering using a SSD in their Mac mini to increase the speed of their machine, make sure you upgrade to 4 or even 8 GiB of RAM first, if your model supports it. The meager default of 2 GiB RAM simply isn't enough.
Because it's small form factor, and Toshiba and another manufacturer already being on board producing these seems to suggest that it's going to become a new standard form factor for SSDs.
Yawn. Why would I want this?
/. poster for some reason or another.
When the internal combustion engine was invented, people probably said the same thing. What am I going to do with this? Can I store it in the cupboard?
Guess what? I think the world found a use for it. My point? Just like people couldn't find a use for a bare metal engine, doesn't meant that it wasn't useful somewhere to someone. Unfortunately, your myopic (and somewhat luddite like) opinion seems to be typical of the average
Wow, I'm not a huge Apple fan but the misinformation here is thick.
I'd wait for benchmarks on this before auto-bashing it in favor of the Intel SSDs, which are are meeting up with decent competition these days.
Well, the interface isn't proprietary so there's no reason 3rd parties can't release higher capacity SSDs in the future.
TRIM has nothing to do with the lifespan of an SSD and everything to do with speed over time. And I'd like to see where people get the idea that Apple hasn't added TRIM support to OS X?
Your arguments are pale, at best.
> is about one-third the thickness of a thin hard disk drive
Thanks, that's not vague at all!
There are a lot of tech luddites on /. for some odd reason.
...And I'd like to see where people get the idea that Apple hasn't added TRIM support to OS X?
The only TRIM support in OS X is currently a line in System Profiler, saying "TRIM Support: " for SSDs. This always seems to display "no" at the moment.
IIRC (can't remember where), people have noted that 10.6 includes various TRIM-type hooks for file operations, but they're not plumbed in at all - eg the filesystem does appear to have partial support, but it's not actually performing any TRIMs on drives yet.
On recent controllers (Intel G2, Sandforce) this isn't really an issue, as the garbage collection on the drives is really good now anyway.
Is Digg down or something?
TRIM has nothing to do with the lifespan of an SSD and everything to do with speed over time. And I'd like to see where people get the idea that Apple hasn't added TRIM support to OS X?
From here the OS table that support trim. If you have newer information please update wikipedia.
Don't know why we can't take a 320GB 1.8" HD and 64GB SSD and put them togehter into a 2.5" HD...and sell it for $200.
This would be a great sweet spot.
All my apps and OS on the SSD...all my music, photos, and videos on the 1.8" HD...form factor would allow this thing to drop into any consumer laptop.
I'm no fanboy, I own nothing Apple but my iPod Touch, but while the PC may be cheaper, you also have viruses/malware, antivirus software, nothing close to iLife, and it sure as hell is not as nicely made or durable. When you factor in those things the premium is worth it IMO. I've been a system builder for over 15 years so believe me it's hard for me to say it, but it's true. The tipping point is if/when your income and time become more valuable than a bunch of variety that never quite work seamlessly.
http://teasphere.wordpress.com - A little spot of tea
Maybe so. But it takes someone who is willing to rethink design to break away from the "standard" case size.
It takes someone like Apple.
*ducks*
Sorry, sorry, I know we hate them now. Forget I ever posted this...
Lies about crimes
I'd wait for benchmarks on this before auto-bashing it in favor of the Intel SSDs, which are are meeting up with decent competition these days.
There are SSDs that are performance competitive with Intel. They are not made by Toshiba. Unless Toshiba has made massive gains over previous models then this drive will not be competitive with Intel or other good SSDs. Most if not all "Toshiba" SSD controller chips are re-baged JMicron ones.
Well, the interface isn't proprietary so there's no reason 3rd parties can't release higher capacity SSDs in the future.
Not proprietary != widely used.
And I'd like to see where people get the idea that Apple hasn't added TRIM support to OS X?
The only OSes that currently support TRIM are Windows 7, Server 2008 R2, Linux with kernel 2.6.33 or greater and recent OpenSolaris. OSX does not support it and Apple's only comments have been a long the lines of "we'll get to that, eventually, maybe".
- I don't want a MBA with a slower SSD when I can buy a brand new generation Intel SSD on a PC which blows it away
The MBA wasn't built to compete with bulkier PC's. It has a different target demography. It's aimed for users who value size and form factor above customizability.
Beware: In C++, your friends can see your privates!
Ahh Im lucky then, I was still standing in line to buy the old one. Sweet. I hope I dont have to go back to the end of the line for the 5 second old version.
Are you clippy?
You are entitled to your own opinions, not your own facts.
Last time I opened a Mac laptop (2002 iBook, granted) there was NO significant open space inside.
This is probably true of laptops in general.
To a Lisp hacker, XML is S-expressions in drag.
My nipples just got hard reading that. I'd definitely drop $200 to put one of those into my netbook. Then again, is there space to fit this in a regular 2 platter drive? While I'm on the topic, WTF is my TB laptop drive that will actually fit in my laptop!?
Viruses/spyware are easily avoided by not being an idiot. There's plenty of applications "close to iLife", some good ones are made by Microsoft and are free no less. Apple hardware is pretty much "middle of the pack" in terms of build quality and durability, being beaten pretty badly by Asus and Sony. Windows 7 + Microsoft Security Essentials (free) + Microsoft Live apps suite + Google Apps suite = everything 99% of home users will ever need. Not to mention if iLife isn't enough, Adobe products on Windows have features left out in Mac versions. I don't remember which, but I watched dozens and dozens of Adobe TV programs teaching myself some Photoshop skills, and I distinctly remember hearing, more than once, "if you are on the Windows platform, you can click here and do so-and-so shortcut feature, sadly Mac users, this feature doesn't exist on the Mac version", never once did I hear the opposite (not claiming there may not be cases of such, just that in dozens and dozens of videos I didn't see it).
I'm no fanboy either, but having to do IT support all day at work and "free" IT support for friends and family, I make sure they don't drink any of the Apple koolaid just so I don't have to deal with endless "how do I get program X from work to install" and "why doesn't my popcap game work" calls.
TRIM is not necessary for OSX; OSX doesn't have the huge performance hit which requires the use of TRIM on Windows. http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/apple/2010/07/01/mac-ssd-performance-trim-in-osx/7
It might be interesting to retrofit these on laptops when regular hard drives die, but I wasn't sure how easily the SSD modules would fit. The picture makes them look rather long in one dimension and much narrower in the other two, but there's no scale to judge how big they are.
I found the dimensions at this site -- apparently 108.9x24x2.2mm for 64GB/128GB, and 108.9x24x3.7mm for 256GB (with chips on both sides). That compares to 100x7 to 15x69mm for 2.5" drives, so you can probably stuff one into the space for a regular 2.5" drive bay even though the SSD is almost 1cm longer. It's close enough that I'm sure it's possible to "make them fit" with a bit of ingenuity, or maybe stuff them in a crevice somewhere else inside a laptop case.
Please keep in mind a few things:
I'm no fanboy, I own nothing Apple but my iPod Touch, but while the PC may be cheaper, you also have viruses/malware, antivirus software,
Apple has more vulnerabilities in its software than Windows now. The current trend is exploiting applications, browsers, etc. No longer the OS itself. Having said that, Apple is now more vulnerable to malware than windows now. The only reason you didn't see it in the past, and don't see AV prevalent now on Macs is because "his holiness" would lay the biggest smackdown ever on AV vendors if they pushed a big marketing campaign in promoting AV on the Mac.
In addition, malware and viruses are prevented with the use of permissions, available on Windows since NT and Wink 2k (18-11 years ago). The only reason they are rampant today is because of dumb people *still* not using UAC/permissions.
nothing close to iLife
Subjective. To me iLife is worthless. Maybe the only thing useful is iPhoto and it's generally regarded as garbage and things like Picasa have surpassed it years ago.
and it sure as hell is not as nicely made or durable.
Not true. PCs are available in all sorts of form factors and degrees of durability. Sometimes even more durable. And you have a choice of even more superior internals than Apple.
When you factor in those things the premium is worth it IMO. I've been a system builder for over 15 years so believe me it's hard for me to say it
Yikes. Really? You build systems with awesome things like hot-swappable HD's, multi-GPU systems, awesome and very original different types of PC cases, liquid cooling, SSD's, RAID 0 systems for awesome performance, SAS 15k HD's, and you still think Apple's 4 year old components (MBA and MBP 13 inch) are worth the premium?
but it's true. The tipping point is if/when your income and time become more valuable than a bunch of variety that never quite work seamlessly.
My PC has "just worked", out of the box, nary a problem, since Windows 95 (save for Windows ME).
True, I was just very irked when reading the the post and I couldn't let it slide. But I disagree that it's misinformation.
I'd wait for benchmarks on this before auto-bashing it in favor of the Intel SSDs, which are are meeting up with decent competition these days.
Already done. Proven by Anandtech
Well, the interface isn't proprietary so there's no reason 3rd parties can't release higher capacity SSDs in the future.
Has nothing to do with being proprietary. How do you upgrade a SSD when it's soldered onto your motherboard?
TRIM has nothing to do with the lifespan of an SSD and everything to do with speed over time. And I'd like to see where people get the idea that Apple hasn't added TRIM support to OS X?
Whoops. My bad. I mean it has no support for TRIM and it will slow over time AND due to the nature of SSDs it's possible with heavy use at year 5-7 (I keep my boxes a long time) there goes my HD. And the bad part is once it happens you can't just copy it off if it hits its limit.
Also, its definitive. By Anandtech: OSX has no TRIM support.
That article, which I think I've seen before, uses terrible methodology. They think that "setting all bits to zero" (an OSX "secure erase") is the same thing as "ATA SECURITY ERASE" when it comes to SSDs. It's not, and couldn't be further from the truth. Instead, what they're doing is to make the drive perpetually in its "most worn" state, instead of actually getting it into a "like new" state that ATA SECURITY ERASE does.
Basically, any conclusions they draw about wear-over-time are utterly useless because of the piss-poor methodology.
Apple has a *nix core, it has none of the Windows viruses and malware. Is it impenetrable? No. is it 90% better than Windows? Yes.
iLife is a suite that works and has great features that most average users want, maybe not you or I, but it is everything most everyone wants in one nice package. iPhoto is excellent and no Picasa does not "beat" it. I use both for totally different reasons.
Find me one durable PC that is found at $500. Won't happen. Panasonic Toughbooks, etc. exist and they are tough, they are also at a premium, sometimes more than Apple.
Yes. Because I don't give a flying fuck about synthetic benchmarks and I can game on a console. Most mainstream games play just fine on any system. I'm long past days of caring about OC'ing,liquid cooling, or any of that. No home computer "needs" most of that stuff, and the average user surely doesn't.
My PC's work too. But if you are trying to say it has been nothing but roses and lollipops since 95, you're a fucking idiot.
http://teasphere.wordpress.com - A little spot of tea
LOL. I got a kick out of your post.
That was my point though. Why would I want this in my PC products?
I mean take an ultraportable from Lenovo. It's so darn tiny it's ridiculous, and even *they* have SSDs that are upgradable in them.
And I'm confused. This SSD is *different* than the SSD found in the MBA's? Anand benchmarked the MBA SSD's and found them to not be sandforce and significantly slower than Intel's. Which one is it?
Of course they would want it to be the new standard form factor. It means your HD is soldered onto the motherboard. Every time you need more capacity, a faster HD, or most importantly the HD dies, you have to buy a entire new computer!
Hooray for consumers!
Ever use a Thinkpad X201? It's a true competitor for the MBA.
It has a normal, upgradable SSD in it. And the thing even has a freakin Core i7 in it for goodness sake!
If Lenovo can do it, why can't Apple?
All this talk about Mac fanboys is overrated. THIS is a fanboy.
"In addition, malware and viruses are prevented with the use of permissions, available on Windows since NT "
"My PC has "just worked", out of the box, nary a problem, since Windows 95 (save for Windows ME)."
You must not remember Win95 very well.
"Viruses/spyware are easily avoided by not being an idiot."
"I'm no fanboy either, but having to do IT support all day at work and "free" IT support for friends and family"
I call bullshit.
This is about as useful as talking about the finer points of a BMW to a crowd that would turn down a ride in one if offered.
If you just want to put your fingers in your ears and drive a Lexus because you already have one, why even enter the discussion?
Soldered? I don't see where it's soldered. In fact, the fact that you can use this to upgrade the new MacBook Air seems to imply it's anything BUT soldered. And I think PhotoFast actually announced their versions of the same SSD for those to upgrade their Airs.
It's a bit of a wierd formfactor, but that's mostly because it's a new interface connector style (still SATA). There'll probably be a trillion SATA-to-this-thing adapter soon enough.
I find it funny everyone is complaining about it being soldered on when it seems everyone is releasing this to upgrade MacBook Airs. Either it's gotten really trivial to solder, or perhaps it's not soldered on.
Apple has a *nix core, it has none of the Windows viruses and malware. Is it impenetrable? No. is it 90% better than Windows? Yes.
So what if it has a UNIX core? All the fixes for BSD and Linux aren't for OSX. And it doesn't have a UNIX core. It's a Mach core (kernel) with BSD userland (remember that phrase "GNU is not Linux!").
And fact: Secunia says OS X is less secure than Windows. Windows is less secure than Linux/BSD/etc., yes. OSX--no.
iLife is a suite that works and has great features that most average users want, maybe not you or I, but it is everything most everyone wants in one nice package. iPhoto is excellent and no Picasa does not "beat" it. I use both for totally different reasons.
iPhoto is NOT excellent. And it's regarded as locking you into a properiatery database that is prone to corruption. Try again.
There are a ton of freely available packages available on Windows that beat the pants off iLife. And I would argue about the one it doesn't have, Garaband. Seriously, for more than 10 minutes, how many of your average users (who have full lives) are going to use it? You're like the people who when the iPhone came out thought it was superior because you could play piano on it and it didn't have 3G or multi-tasking.
Find me one durable PC that is found at $500. Won't happen. Panasonic Toughbooks, etc. exist and they are tough, they are also at a premium, sometimes more than Apple.
Find me an Apple laptop at $500. Oh wait, they don't make ANY computer below $800, or laptops below $1100. And just one, off my head, alternative to a MBP build quality--a HP envy. Which offers more powerful options at a significantly less price.
Yes. Because I don't give a flying fuck about synthetic benchmarks and I can game on a console. Most mainstream games play just fine on any system. I'm long past days of caring about OC'ing,liquid cooling, or any of that. No home computer "needs" most of that stuff, and the average user surely doesn't.
I wasn't talking about games. I just meant useful tech in general. Though that's a good point--Macs are poor for gaming too!
My PC's work too. But if you are trying to say it has been nothing but roses and lollipops since 95, you're a fucking idiot.
No, things weren't perfect and needed improvment, but that goes for both platforms. Gone are the days of IRQs, jumpers, etc. Adding hardware, plugging in hardware, installing hardware, and installing software has been nothing more than a few short clicks since the days of 2002 (9 years ago buddy)--Win XP. And I would argue even before that (Win 95)
I'm a fanboy? Oh boy. Here we go. Ok, I'll play.
"In addition, malware and viruses are prevented with the use of permissions, available on Windows since NT "
There is 0 doubt that there has been malware since Windows NT. But 90% of it has been blocked if one wasn't a moron and used XP as a user instead of admin (root). Don't forget, your beloved Apple was plagued with viruses/malware pre-OSX too. The only reason it became more secure was because, hey, you guess it! Permissions!
"My PC has "just worked", out of the box, nary a problem, since Windows 95 (save for Windows ME)."
You must not remember Win95 very well.
Actually I do remember it well. But this is /., who practically invented Windows bashing. So I realize I'll never win a Windows 95 argument. So let's jump to Windows XP.
Pull up a chair. Let's break it down. Since 2002 with WinXP, has:
Installation of a program take more than a few clicks? NO.
Installation of hardware taken more than a few clicks of a driver? NO.
Installation of hardware been that tough? NO. Everything has been as easy as one or two snaps/plugs.
There been difficulty or incompatibilities in connecting devices? NO. Just plug it in to a USB port (available on PC *first*)
I could go on and on.
Ouch. That sucks. You wanted to shoot me down by spreading the typical FUD that has existed for years. Too bad I took the time out to debunk your FUD.
If you honestly believe windows is more secure then, I don't know what to tell you.
I do a ton of photo work and iPhoto has a ton of features that no other program I have used has or has as elegantly or usable. Sorry. (and I play guitar and enjoy the simplicity of Garageband since I'm not a pro, I don't own a Mac but that is something I would dig.)
HP Envy is essentially the same price as a MBP and very close in hardware at those prices.
Most of the tech you mentioned is for benchmarks or gaming on a home PC. Not average userland. The MBP and iMacs play modern games just fine and have perfectly normal GPUs. I'm not a hardcore gamer and a NV 9600GT is in my PC.
Windows 7 is a massive improvement and I love it. It is still terribly flawed in usability. OSX shines there. Sure, you have to do it their way but that is the tradeoff. I'd love to see Meego or Ubuntu Unity really take off.
Like I said initially, you are arguing with the wrong person. I'm not a fanboy. I use what is best for the job at hand. I have no problem admitting some things Apple does drive me damn insane, they also get some things really right. None are perfect, use what you like. However, your assessment of Macs and Apple are horribly tainted and in some cases wrong. But that's fine, you are entitled to your opinion.
http://teasphere.wordpress.com - A little spot of tea
Has nothing to do with being proprietary. How do you upgrade a SSD when it's soldered onto your motherboard?
Well I would use a soldering iron, but fortunately this is not necessary as the both the Toshiba Blade X-gale SSD and the Photofast SSD (which incidently uses a Sandforce SF-1200 controller) are user replaceable by anyone with the correct screwdriver.
If you honestly believe windows is more secure then, I don't know what to tell you.
It's been accepted now by security experts (not so-called geeks spouting the same FUD since 1999) for a good year or two now. Go look it up. Also, there are a lot of new security technologies in place that OSX doesn't have.
I do a ton of photo work and iPhoto has a ton of features that no other program I have used has or has as elegantly or usable. Sorry. (and I play guitar and enjoy the simplicity of Garageband since I'm not a pro, I don't own a Mac but that is something I would dig.)
We can argue this until you're blue in the face. iPhoto is regarded as a poor application. There are a myriad of better alternatives. And millions of people don't need Garageband.
HP Envy is essentially the same price as a MBP and very close in hardware at those prices.
Not this again. Just... no.
The 13" MBP doesn't even have an OPTION for a 7200 RPM HD or a Core i3/5/7. And the other envy is a 17". Even fully decked out with a Core i7, 8GB of RAM, Blu-ray, and a 500 GB 7200 RPM HD, it's about $200-400 cheaper than a MBP 15" and $1,500 cheaper than the MBP 17"
Most of the tech you mentioned is for benchmarks or gaming on a home PC. Not average userland. The MBP and iMacs play modern games just fine and have perfectly normal GPUs. I'm not a hardcore gamer and a NV 9600GT is in my PC.
No problem. Let's expand the list. In just 5 seconds, I could name no USB 3.0. No blu-ray. No e-SATA ports. No HDMI ports. That not useful to you?
And sure they play modern games fine. At the lowest settings, lowest details, and they can only play about 10% of the games out there! Good example!
Windows 7 is a massive improvement and I love it. It is still terribly flawed in usability. OSX shines there. Sure, you have to do it their way but that is the tradeoff. I'd love to see Meego or Ubuntu Unity really take off.
You really think usability is superior? You really think that?
The incredibly small buttons used in most applications are easy to hit quickly?
Itunes and Quicktime are good at useability and interface?
That the inconsistant look of applications are good?
That half of the time you hover over an application, there is no tool-tip, so you're left wondering what the hell you press?
Only being able to resize a window from one *tiny* little corner, forcing you to take like 5 minutes to hit it and find it, is good?
I think Win 7 is excellent is usability. But I won't argue, like you, that it's superior because it's subjective. And OSX you can't say follows the HIG anymore. If anything, Gnome is more true to the HIG and is usable as an interface and more consistent. And you're making Unity the example of usability? The thing is practically alpha software and to date the most it does is a re-invented program launcher. Seriously?
Forgot to add the most important part (see my other reply).
Your whole reply here is going off topic. Snap back to my original premis. This reply is just to evade the main part that you're just plain wrong and misinformed.
MB airs are in a completely different market to the toughbook. One is rugged, the other is not.
Can we install more than one of these in a system and then configure them like a RAID 0 array?
I'd like to connect four 250GB SSD modules together to form a 1TB portable RAID 0 SSD.
Ever use a Thinkpad X201? It's a true competitor for the MBA.
It has a normal, upgradable SSD in it. And the thing even has a freakin Core i7 in it for goodness sake!
If Lenovo can do it, why can't Apple?
Maybe you are prepared to put up with the extra weight and size as a trade off for the extra grunt, but not everyone would be. I confess to have never used a Thinkpad X201, have you ever used an MBA?
Thanks for the correction, the article was not very clear and I thought after reading it the connector was mSATA, with just a longer form factor.
However the recommendation for an "offtopic" moderation is not very valid, since wrong information can still be on topic... it's not like there is any upward moderation to be undone. You should also have summarized in your subject that it was in fact not an mSATA connector.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Same form factor. MBA 11" is thinner. MBA is 2.3 lbs. Thinkpad is 2.89 lbs. When you're both in the same 2 lbs. ballpark, it really doesn't matter.
http://www.anandtech.com/show/3991/apples-2010-macbook-air-11-13inch-reviewed/4 - Benchmarks, showing that it's okay ( far behind Intel SSDs) for random-read-write, and on par for sequential read-writes.
This also illustrates that OS X and this drive have something going on to act like TRIM, without being TRIM. My SF1200 drive shows up as "TRIM: Unsupported" in the system profiler, which makes me think that OS X isn't adopting TRIM, and going some different way that plays nicer with their current way of managing files.
Well the answer to your goofy little problem is simple. Tell them to find an employer that is not so backwards that they use programs which require a pos operating system like windows?
You are clearly a very biased fan boy, despite your assertion to the contrary.
Everything you made is just made up. Seriously you provided no evidence (because you lied so evidence would be difficult to provide).
You live in a world where Picasa is a good program so there is no point in even trying to have a discussion..
I am certain you are the kind of person Secunia wishes would stop visting their site. You clearly do not understand what you are reading. Please send me a link where Secunia says anything like OSX is more vulnerable than windows (Note they do not actually make judgement statements like that and their site clearly states that you should not compare number of vulnerabilities on a platform for anything, because it is a meaningless comparison).
So provide a link, or stfu and stop misrepresenting what other people are saying to try and make your own confused point.
If you honestly believe windows is more secure then, I don't know what to tell you.
It's been accepted now by security experts (not so-called geeks spouting the same FUD since 1999) for a good year or two now. Go look it up. Also, there are a lot of new security technologies in place that OSX doesn't have.
Just because you keep saying it does not make it true. You have made the same assertion four times now without a single link. You mentioned Secunia who would not even make a statement like that. Link someone, anyone that is a mildly credible security expert.
Your are just being comical now. You clearly have no idea what you are talking about. The things you say are so absurd it is friggin hilarious. Thanks for the entertainment. It is fun to watch ignorant people make very bold assertions based on clearly limited experience.
Same form factor, are you high? Seriously?
Is 2-7 times thicker depending where you measure. (1.5" - .8" for Lenovo, .68" to .11" for MBA) .59lbs is quite a bit of weight in this class.
The Lenovo machine has Intel graphics.
They do not even offer an SSD in their standard builds...It would cost you 1259 to build a machine with an i3, 2GB RAM, intel graphics and 128GB SSD. So there is no price advantage.
If it works like every other Lenovo laptop I have seen (and I have witnessed this happen to 3 and seen the aftermath on 6 or 7 more) picking it up by one of the front corners will snap the plastic.
I guess his parents make him go to bed at 9:00 or so. His rants had actually gone from annoying to entertaining by the end.
Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
...and it sure as hell is not as nicely made or durable.
This is so true.
My wife has gone through a huge array of laptops since before I meet her. She had a Dell laptop (don't ask me the model) and that thing didn't last her 8 months.
Then I got her a cheap Acer one, at 300 bucks I figured "as long as she treats it carefully, it will work ok" but it got all messed up without any punishment. First the charging plug just fell off, then the monitor glitched up and started to look like a glitched NES game.
After this I got her an HP Netbook. She found it horibly inconvenient (although she thought it was cute at the store) and the WiFi antena suffered huge issues. It would rarely see networks and had to be in the same room as the wireless router to get any decent signal.
At this point she took over my personal Compaq Presario laptop, wich I got because my old Toshiba Tablet PC would burn holes into my pants after prolonged use.
Eventually, my Compaq laptop started having issues, after one too many overheating the battery got messed up and it stopped charging. Without dropping it, the battery holding clip broke and now the thing is stuck to a desk since it poops out the battery every time you lift it (not that it matters since the battery won't charge over 10 minutes worth of juice.)
After all this, she got sick and decided she would get a MacBook, as a coworker of her's had done. Even being an apple fan myself, I always though it was too expensive to go that route, since the cheapest model was 1000 dollars. 1 year and a half later the thing still works as if it was bought yesterday. That is amazing.
She spent 1500 on the dell before meeting me.
I spent 300 on the acer, then 400 in the netbook.
My compaq laptop was 500, and my Tablet PC was 1400, but I wont count it for this.
That's a total of $3000. 4400 if I counted the Tablet PC (but I wont.)
Had we (she) just gone with the "overly priced mac" from the start, it would had been just 1000 dollars. Her coworker has been using her MacBook for as long as I know her and even 4 years later it still performs as well as I'd want a non-gaming laptop to perform.
Say whatever you say about Apple, but unless it's a PC I build myself, I am now only buying Apple computers.
I wont even jump into security (at the end of the day, a platform that has more attacks and is slightly more secure may still net to be more vulnerable than one that has less security and less attacks.)
I will say due to experience (that I posted in another point off this conversation) that macs seem to be extremely durable.
HP, Toshiba, Acer and Asus computers I have worked with have proven to be disapointingly breakable. I have not worked with a Sony laptop nor talked in person with anyone that has, so I can't comment on those. I had a Thinkpad Lenovo from work that was very durable. Overall that one was a worthwille machine, but also had a chasis that made it feel as if I was moving national secrets in the thing, it was bulky and square. Looking at it made me think the thing should had been bulletproof. But has been one of the few pc laptops that didn't overheat nor did it break by father time winking at it. Macs, so far, have been extremely durable.
I do hate the magnetic power cord in the mac-minis. It's too easy to unplug it while poping in a USB drive and unlike laptops, the thing has no battery.
iLife is not a thing I would buy a mac for, but it's a nice thing to have. I find Picasa has a better face recognition than iPhoto, but that's about it. iPhoto has a lot of cooler features. iWeb is amazingly easy to use, my wife has made cool looking webpages in the thing and she is the type that attempts to align text in Word by spamming spaces at the left of certain words! iMovie kicks Windows Movie Maker's ass all the way to the stratosphere. Window's offering is just an afterthought. iMovie is a blissful experience in video editing.
As for usability, well, my wife has not asked me once how to do anything on the Mac since she got it (well other than the few apps she think she can install but gets the windows version by accident, something she has slowly learned to avoid, can't wait for the Apple App Store for Mac.) Despite having used windows for much longer, she still constantly bugs me to help her with this or that when she works on a PC. So yea, I'd say Apple has managed to make Mac OS X very usable. Exception: iTunes syncing, although I find it easy she has a hard time trying to sync music into her iPod.
BTW, on the Unity thing, how come Ubuntu is jumping into Unity if it's considered alpha software? I am guessing it is not really as crude as you take it to be.
Ah the whipping out of the "Macs aren't overpriced card," complete with manipulated build configs on a website to prove it. I'll bite.
Same form factor, are you high? Seriously?
Maybe not to a fanboy, but to normal person who wants an ultraportable, yes.
Is 2-7 times thicker depending where you measure. (1.5" - .8" for Lenovo, .68" to .11" for MBA) .59lbs is quite a bit of weight in this class.
I don't measure the size of my e-peen by how how many microns thinner a computer is.
The Lenovo machine has Intel graphics.
Perfectly adequate for a machine in this segment. You're not running games on a MBA either.
They do not even offer an SSD in their standard builds...It would cost you 1259 to build a machine with an i3, 2GB RAM, intel graphics and 128GB SSD. So there is no price advantage.
1) Yes they do. Just add the option.
2) They don't even have i3's. They go right to Core i5. Big difference. MBA's aren't even in the same league.
3) You're arguing the price card? By comparing an awesome Thinkpad ultraportable to a $1000 Apple netbook?
If it works like every other Lenovo laptop I have seen (and I have witnessed this happen to 3 and seen the aftermath on 6 or 7 more) picking it up by one of the front corners will snap the plastic.
Anecodotal evidence does not a truth make. I've witnessed it NOT snapping. See? Mine is as just as good as yours. And are you seriously knocking a Thinkpad's build quality? There are millions who disagree with you.
You can't with this one buddy.
Cue the Apple fanboy "But-but-but it's true because it happens only on Wednesdays under a full moon when Jupiter is aligned with Venus between 10:35 and 10:37 pm!!! See!".
I'm waiting.
The beauty is I don't have to. It's available on their site to anyone who would like to see it. And it's the general consensus among security experts now.
Provide a link this isn't true, or STFU fanboy.
And wow are you a fanboy! You wrote 5 or 6 lame fanboy responses to one comment I made. Wow buddy.
So I'm waiting. Cue the Apple fanboy "But-but-but it's true because it happens only on Wednesdays under a full moon when Jupiter is aligned with Venus between 10:35 and 10:37 pm!!! See!".
Couldn't agree more... but be careful, logic and reason matter not in rabid Apple hatred.
I don't also count the hardware costs, but think of all the lost time and effort over all of those issues. When I was in college, OK, but now that my time is valuable and scarce I place far more of a premium on that than whether or not my mp3 encoding takes 45 vs. 42 seconds with the latest and greatest CPU that I can't get in a Mac.
TCO is something that comes with maturity and age. I still happily build my PCs and even then a 27" iMac is looking nicer and nicer... good luck finding even a 27" IPS monitor for around the price of the whole computer. Like I said from the beginning sometimes it makes sense and sometimes it doesn't, it's just about the right tool for the job.
http://teasphere.wordpress.com - A little spot of tea
Thank you for being polite, and replying with a well thought out and intelligent reply. It's refreshing here on /.
I wont even jump into security (at the end of the day, a platform that has more attacks and is slightly more secure may still net to be more vulnerable than one that has less security and less attacks.)
Very valid theory. But first, as I'm sure you know, security is a process. You must be vigilant in not clicking on random thing, ad naseum, using a firewall, permissions, etc. This is true of any OS. But now Windows has the edge in security technologies on the internet facing front. The problem now is because of permissions and both OS's are hardened, malware is now taking the approach of avoiding the attempt to get admin/root altogether. It's far more effective to infect the common software found on a system and infect/control/etc it. Witness the popularity of drive-by ad malware. And that's the thing. MS has proven that its software that comes with it has significantly less vulnerabilities than Apple's. The amount of vulnerabilities in Safari, Quicktime, and Itunes are simply staggering.
It's at the point where Apple software is becoming the new IE 6.
That's the point. But I don't blame you because the FUD over the years on both sides is so thick you could cut it with a knife.
I will say due to experience (that I posted in another point off this conversation) that macs seem to be extremely durable.
HP, Toshiba, Acer and Asus computers I have worked with have proven to be disapointingly breakable. I have not worked with a Sony laptop nor talked in person with anyone that has, so I can't comment on those. I had a Thinkpad Lenovo from work that was very durable. Overall that one was a worthwille machine, but also had a chasis that made it feel as if I was moving national secrets in the thing, it was bulky and square. Looking at it made me think the thing should had been bulletproof. But has been one of the few pc laptops that didn't overheat nor did it break by father time winking at it. Macs, so far, have been extremely durable.
I do hate the magnetic power cord in the mac-minis. It's too easy to unplug it while poping in a USB drive and unlike laptops, the thing has no battery.
Thank you for at least being open to alternatives and addressing real credible issues instead of typical fanboy FUD rhetoric.
iLife is not a thing I would buy a mac for, but it's a nice thing to have. I find Picasa has a better face recognition than iPhoto, but that's about it. iPhoto has a lot of cooler features. iWeb is amazingly easy to use, my wife has made cool looking webpages in the thing and she is the type that attempts to align text in Word by spamming spaces at the left of certain words! iMovie kicks Windows Movie Maker's ass all the way to the stratosphere. Window's offering is just an afterthought. iMovie is a blissful experience in video editing.
While it may be a useful software package, I wouldn't base my choice of an entire OS ecosystem around iLife, one mediocre software application
As for usability, well, my wife has not asked me once how to do anything on the Mac since she got it (well other than the few apps she think she can install but gets the windows version by accident, something she has slowly learned to avoid, can't wait for the Apple App Store for Mac.) Despite having used windows for much longer, she still constantly bugs me to help her with this or that when she works on a PC. So yea, I'd say Apple has managed to make Mac OS X very usable. Exception: iTunes syncing, although I find it easy she has a hard time trying to sync music into her iPod.
See my comments about useability above. But I think it's more than she knows Macs aren't Windows, so she accepts that there is a new way of doing things and learns them. Whereas with Windows, she just probably got used to a way working with it at work and at home
Out off curiosity I checked for those iTunes, QuickTime and Safari vulnerabilities and find out they affected windows exclusively, not only this but seems most were WebKit issues in win32 environments, meaning for sure at least at some point chrome had the same issues. Other issues I found noted QuickTime ActiveX controls.
I have seen windows machines be infected in my face. Usually it's adobe software that is to blame, but it tends to carry windows specific attacks. These don't even need user stupidity, as the malicious code runs in flash ads or other embedded content.
On iLife software, the only way anyone can call it mediocre is because they have not used it, at least not for anything other than click on buttons at a display machine in BestBuy,and even there, long enough exposure would bring it's power to light. It's not software for professional power users, but it's powerful software none the less.
On usability, my wife hates computers and is far from disposed to learn new software under any environment. That is why I tend to use heras an example. As the owner of a Mac Mini, I also fail to seethe drastic UI differences between applications you note.
On discovery, macs have an amazing help system. As long as the app is designed properly (and all Apple software is, as well as all popular apps I have used) the OS will even drop down the needed menu and point out with an impossible to miss arrow the item you need to click. It may also darken the screen and spotlight buttons. Likely what helps my wife find her way without asking me for anything.
Oh and iTunes sync may not be very intuitive, but also had a Samsung MP3 player and rather deal with iTunes than ever be forced to drag and drop MP3s ever again.
I like your post. I have a few issues with it, but I like it.
Out off curiosity I checked for those iTunes, QuickTime and Safari vulnerabilities and find out they affected windows exclusively, not only this but seems most were WebKit issues in win32 environments, meaning for sure at least at some point chrome had the same issues. Other issues I found noted QuickTime ActiveX controls.
This isn't the case. You really have to cull over the database line by line, vulnerability by vulnerability. But I don't blame you, doing it requires a lot of work.
I have seen windows machines be infected in my face. Usually it's adobe software that is to blame, but it tends to carry windows specific attacks. These don't even need user stupidity, as the malicious code runs in flash ads or other embedded content.
1) There are OS X specific attacks in Flash too.
2) This will happen with Apple's "magical" solution--HTML 5--for everything too.
3) Even basic web ads with Javascript do it. It's not windows specific.
4) Apple has Javascript support too, and flash too. They're just as vulnerable.
5) Blaming another vendor (in this case, MS) for Flash's vulnerabilities. No.
On iLife software, the only way anyone can call it mediocre is because they have not used it, at least not for anything other than click on buttons at a display machine in BestBuy,and even there, long enough exposure would bring it's power to light. It's not software for professional power users, but it's powerful software none the less.
If it works for you, that's great. For me it's worthless. I could say well so what--mac doesn't have video games. But it's the same thing. To you it probably doesn't matter and it's worthless. (5% of games run on it does not make it a platform for games)
On usability, my wife hates computers and is far from disposed to learn new software under any environment. That is why I tend to use heras an example. As the owner of a Mac Mini, I also fail to seethe drastic UI differences between applications you note.
It's readily apparent within 10 minutes of using it. I don't know how you missed it. I gave real, multiple, specific examples. Not FUD.
On discovery, macs have an amazing help system. As long as the app is designed properly (and all Apple software is, as well as all popular apps I have used) the OS will even drop down the needed menu and point out with an impossible to miss arrow the item you need to click. It may also darken the screen and spotlight buttons. Likely what helps my wife find her way without asking me for anything.
Why should I even need to access the help system at all? Anything I've used in Windows for years I haven't even had to crack open a help system. One can figure it out in seconds, if one needs to figure it out at all.
Oh and iTunes sync may not be very intuitive, but also had a Samsung MP3 player and rather deal with iTunes than ever be forced to drag and drop MP3s ever again.
This one I really have issue with. How is treating a MP3 player as a USB drive with simple drag and drop hard? ITunes as the better solution to MP3 management? Millions of users disagree with you.
I was going to do this one short, to avoid redundancy, but after finishing it I looked back and realized I still posted a brick-wall. Oh well. Here it is:
Security: I never tagged Flash holes on Windows, as I said at first, it's about the ratio off attacks against the platform that make it dangerous. Off course, same would happen to OSX if it became predominant platform, but I am sure that won't happen, and I doubt Apple wants that. They just want to sell their computers and make money off them just as Dell makes money off theirs.
Discovery: The reason you find it easy to find things in Windows and not mac is because you are used to Windows "rules" off design. Apple has it's own "rules", these are different. Any one that has used macs for years finds it very intuitive. The help allows for a very easy jump without having the background. Not to mention, even the most veteran user may find himself googling how to do something in Windows, in OSX you just use the help and get faster results without googling.
MP3: Although drag and drop is "easy", it makes syncing meta-data impossible. Changes to the metadata to things like play-count and rating just can't be synchronized, not to mention searching a directory by genre, artist, or combination is nigh impossible. Even my Samsung MP3 player allowed me to rate songs, and increase play-count. It was a useless feature because I was forced to either delete the computer MP3 to transfer the updates, or delete the device's updates to bring over the desktop playback ones. Syncing through a system like iTunes merges this type of metadata. Also, i even have a "smart" playlist as my only "sync" playlist. This playlist will remove recently skipped songs based on rating (no rating, 2 skips in the last week being enough to remove, 5 stars, forgive up to 10 skips, etc) and also to remove overly played songs.
Another thing I can do is tell the sync to downgrade the bit rate of any song to a cap of 128 kbps to save storage. This leaves the original version at whatever inflated bit rate it may have but allows me to squeeze more music in my iPod. I just wish I was given an option for even lower bit rates, as my ear is not refined enough to find difference between 128 and 96 kbps. This is another impossibility with plain file dumping.
It's not intuitive, and you may need to be a "power user" (or at least knowledgeable enough) to use it's full power, but once you get there, copying files will feel primitive and clumsy. PS: this has nothing to do with OS X itself, as I keep my music collection in my Windows 7 Desktop.
At the end of the day, the world can disagree with me on iTunes, I still enjoy it and my two complains on it are that the sync setup with iDevices does not feel as intuitive as I assume it could be and the lack of multi-artist metadata (if a song is a joint venture, like, I don't know, Eminem + Rihanna, I either am forced to pick one or enter both creating a new entry under artist. I would like having a semicolon generate separate artist entries.
Discovery: I still stand by my comments about discovery. Lack of simple things like:
1) No tool-tips (which are a godsend)
2) Icons/buttons so small that you have to spend an inordinate time focusing on hitting rather than "flicking" to hit (HIG). You know it's bad when it's so annoying to get to the button you'd rather move your hands to the keyboard and hit ctrl+w
3) It's not a matter of Windows either. Even in Linux, if you use a GUI program in X you can always figure it out--at least the interface and basic usage. I mean maybe not if you use twm or godawful Afterstep lol (which no one uses anyway), but everything else.
Funny side note: Afterstep was meant to emulate NeXTStep's WM, and guess who used that as the base for its OS? :) And they both have poor discoverability. Small world.
But that help system does sound like a deal. Nice feature. Is the help detailed and thorough and covers all topics in depth? Or is it like Windows where unless it's a particular industrial strength or established program, it's pretty sparse?
MP3: Interesting. These do sound like useful features. I came from the old school with MP3's, so I always was in the habit of making detailed appropriate names and directories so I could search for it or busting out with "find / - name xyz*.mp3". I always wanted to KISS rather than go crazy with a corruptible DB of metadata. That's why I always heard great things about Amarok but never got around to trying it. Though now I rarely even use MP3s though. Love Pandora. And for the MP3's I do have, I couldn't take ITunes anymore. I just stream everything to my iPhone. But nonetheless you have a good counterpoint--those do sound like useful features.
There are Tooltips in the Mac. I am posting this from Safari on my Mac right now and just double checked, every button in the interface has a tooltip. If an app does not have them it's developer laziness (big time since it's very easy to include them while in the UI designer.) I even found an article telling users how to set a much longer delay on their tooltips if they feel sick of seeing trivial tooltips every time they hover a control.
You got me curious and I digged a bit on the Help Search feature and I found out it does not even need programming. It automatically looks through the menu to help you find actions, every application naturally supports it (as long as it actually uses the standard Mac Menu bar and does not just work in X-11 compatibility mode.) Blender 3D is an example of an application that does not support it due to it using it's own in-window menu bar scheme. So, Mac OS help helps you [as best as it can] even when the App developer refused to provide you with help! :P
Anyways found a video you can look at to see the Help Search in action. Forgive the author for his over-enthusiasm, but I do have to say I was almost that impressed when I first found that feature while digging into the control panel for Firewall settings.
As for iTunes, my current stance in "defending it" is as a syncing tool (despite my opinions of it not being intuitive.) I never recommend it to anyone to use if they have no iPods, I just "defend" when people claim it takes tolerance to stand iTunes to sync their iPods (if they think so then why get an iPod that shares the iTunes navigation structure?)