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Apache Declares War On Oracle Over Java
jfruhlinger writes "The Apache Software Foundation, feeling increasingly marginalized as Oracle asserts its control over the Java platform, is fighting back, trying to rally fellow members of the Java Community Process to block the next version of the language if Oracle doesn't make it available under an open license amenable to Apache. Last month's Oracle-IBM pact was a blow against the ASF, which had worked with IBM in the past, but it appears that Apache isn't giving up the fight."
Keep in mind that Oracle Java is the "reference" copy of Java. Just because its the one most people use is not the point. For many moons, there was a couple of OTHER java implementations (Too bad Oracle now owns the BEA implementation of java too). There is still one that FreeBSD has (that was actually "blessed" by Sun).
UPS Sucks
Too bad Oracle now owns the BEA implementation of java too
BEA never wrote a JVM. They bought JRocket shortly before being acquired by Oracle.
There aint no pancake so thin it doesn't have two sides.
In what way?
Do you not think it exists solely to get MS patents into the free software ecosystem?
Do you think MS is just going to let it thrive ever?
Mono is like moonlight, it gets MS patents into free software land and lets them claim cross compatibility without any actual cross compatibility.
You sue them over patents. Look at what MS is doing to folks build android handsets.
No - there weren't millions of computers to develop on back then.
However, cobol was the only way to develop anything that mattered on any computers that mattered. I wouldn't be surprised if the NYSE is still running on cobol and cics...
if You make or use such software outside the scope of creating such software code, You do not benefit from this promise for such distribution or for these other activities.
Create all the software you like, but if anyone uses it they reserve the right to sue them.
Novell extended the patent protection to anyone who uses their software. And again, if Microsoft tried to sue a company merely for using Mono software, the EU could come down again.
And I don't care who you are, a half billion dollar fine hurts. And stopping all sales of your products in the EU hurts.
http://blindscribblings.com - Tasty pop-culture in conceptual fashion.
Too bad Oracle now owns the BEA implementation of java too
BEA never wrote a JVM. They bought JRocket shortly before being acquired by Oracle.
I wouldn't consider six years to be be "shortly." Quoth the Wikipedia entry for JRockit: JRockit, a proprietary Java Virtual Machine (JVM) originally developed by Appeal Virtual Machines and acquired by BEA Systems in 2002, became part of Oracle Fusion Middleware in 2008.
It's full blown Linux, but most users won't download an app which requires a huge runtime which doesn't come with the default install.
If only Microsoft would make a legally binding promise not to sue the standardized parts of Mono for patents. If only they would release many of the other parts under an open source license with a strong patent grant, like the Apache 2 license. If only they would take actions that would set up a very strong estoppel defense against suits over the rest...
Oh wait, they did all this. Go troll elsewhere.
FORTRAN? While scientific computing is no longer the largest sector of computing, it is certainly something that traditionally "matters". And it was here before COBOL.
Tequila: It's not just for breakfast anymore!
They went for C/C++. There is nothing in Python on the base Maemo platform.
For Meego, all UIs and higher-level stuff is in Qt so it's using C++
I don't think that's right; this isn't about GPL vs. the Apache license. The issue isn't the licensing of OpenJDK itself, but about the licensing of the Java Technology Compatibility Kit (the JCK), which is used to test if an implementation is compatible with a given version of the Java spec. The JCK isn't available under an open source license at all. If the JCK were under the GPL, or even if it were under a license that didn't permit you to modify it, but only permitted anyone to run it, then Apache could use it to test their Java implementation, which is what they want to do.
A lot of the people who comment on the subject seem to be familiar with the Java language itself, but not so much with the significance of the frameworks and libraries that are out there. In these threads, I don't usually get the sense that some of the posters are very aware of just how much business software has been built in Java in the past decade. Whenever I see comments dismissing Java based on stuff like applet or Swing performance, it just drives the point home that some people simply don't understand where the Java code is. (Hint, it's not in the end-user GUI or the 2D or 3D animation.)
-fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
You don't know what you're talking about.
The problem is that to be a compatible Java implementation you must pass the TCK. To get a hold of the TCK you must agree that your Java implementation has a limited field of use, namely desktop computers. That means you have to add a clause to your licence that tells your users where they can use the software - no such clause exists in any open source licence I'm aware of.
Sure you can use the OpenJDK, you can even fork it, but therein lies the problem... you can't, because if you do and you want to claim it's a compatible implementation you have to pass the TCK. So you have to licence the TCK, then you have to add a field of use restriction to your licence, but that's incompatible with the GPL that the OpenJDK GPL requires you to licence under.
End result, you can have Oracle Java or 'Open'JDK
The ASF don't have a political axe to grind with the GPL, aren't firing a salvo in some imaginary war based on their view of free; It's about a contractual obligation Oracle has to release the TCK to the ASF. An obligation Sun had and failed to meet and that Oracle continues to fail to meet.
The ASF was re-elected to the JCP with 95% of the vote. No other elected member had anywhere near that. The members spoke with their vote and consequently the ASF leaving the JCP would be big news in a war with Oracle, nobody else. The ASF is outside core Java and the work of the JCP probably the biggest single contributor to the Java ecosystem. Their threat to leave the JCP would seriously damage it and Oracle's commitment to opensource's credibility.
The principle of estoppel would seem to apply here however:
Microsoft has promised not to sue, and stated so publicly, in writing. The Mono developers (and users) have proceeded under the assumption that commitment was made in good faith; Even if Microsoft reverses their decision, they cannot then sue for infringement of the *patents they already agreed not to sue* over. Estoppel would kick in, protecting the devs & users.
If the terms of the licensing arrangement change (at MSFT's decision, or because the project was spun off and sold to a patent troll), that might prevent me from *continuing to develop* the software and prevent me from using new releases because those new versions would not be covered by the patent covenant, but they'd have no legal basis for claiming damages on my 'infringement' on a patent which MSFT had publicly declared they would not sue over.
Such a change to licensing terms would likely kill Mono, and it would severely disrupt my business if I had strategic plans that included relying on Mono for the foreseeable future - i'm not arguing that reliance on Mono is a good thing, but I don't see how it approaches the level of "poisoning the well" of open source that the original poster suggested.
Are you a fucking moron? It is a complete development framework that can be used to create NATIVE Linux applications. WINE is an implementation of the win32 API on Linux. it was built to translate operations meant to manipulate windows in a specific way to something analogous on Linux. MONO is an implementation of an OS independent FRAMEWORK not an API, just like Java is and all its libraries is an OS independent framework.... Is Java the WINE of Solaris then?
Who let the retards in here?
Python is included in the distn by default. Java is not.
Developers can develop in C or Python without adding a run time to the system.
FTFY.
The Apache Indian in North America would go to war with the Athenian Oracle at Delphi over the island of Java in the South Pacific.
Phocian, not Athenian... We mustn't let that Apache get lost while he's in Greece.
Since D is supposed to be "C# done right", it might be a language worth investigating
Minor correction: it's supposed to be C++ done right. It predates C#: I first played with it in 2000 and it wasn't new then, C# was first released in 2001. It's not a bad language, if you like the Simula family.
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
Really, so the puppet/troll company could sue people for 'infringing' on a patent before they owned it, and where the current owner specifically allowed it and encouraged it at the time?
If MSFT sells .NET to a puppet, that puppet cannot revise history and say "We own it now, so you were infringing all along while you worked with Microsoft."
They can withdraw their support, they can sue forks of the product after they withdraw their support, they can make life difficult for users & developers (and tarnish their own image in the process), but they cannot sue you for something you did with the then-owner's blessing 5 years before they became the owner of the product.
This doesn't work around Estoppel, this changes the agreement - Microsoft would still be unable to sue for infringement during the times & under the conditions which they specifically encouraged people to perform that infringing activity. They could ONLY sue for infringement *after* they withdrew their support.
Fact. Microsoft worked directly with the Mono team and gave them their blessing.
Fact. Microsoft made a patent pledge.
Fact. The EU said if Microsoft doesn't play nice on interoperability then they will fine them again and halt all sales of Microsoft products in the EU.
Fact. Several distros and companies have shipped and used Mono software without licensing any patents and nothing bad has happened to any of them.
Fact. Microsoft has sued exactly one company over patents, and that was related to a file system.
Fact. Microsoft has a horrible track record as the company of Embrace, Extend, Extinguish, but in recent years Microsoft has opened documentation on their protocols, and actually released code to the OSS community. Their Chief Software Architect wrote in internal memos that Microsoft needed to change and start embracing open standards and protocols more. In that time frame, IE has shifted significantly to a standards compliant browser, and MS Office voluntarily added a filter for ODF and PDF. Not everything they do is some insidious plan.
Crazy Conspiracy Theory: Anyone who uses Mono will get sued to oblivion, even though it hasn't happened to this point, and it flies in the face of all the evidence to the contrary!
Yes, you are spreading FUD. Again, stop it.
http://blindscribblings.com - Tasty pop-culture in conceptual fashion.
http://news.cnet.com/2100-1014_3-5255715.html
Microsoft did pay the EU fines.
And MS Office sales were halted. The judge upheld the injunction, not stopped it.
http://techie-buzz.com/microsoft/injunction-on-sale-of-microsoft-office-2007-word-2007-in-the-us-post-jan-11-2010-upheld.html
Then Microsoft swiftly resolved their patent case to resume sales because they are terrified of losing one of their two biggest cash cows. They can not afford to have an injunction against sales.
Please stop lying and spreading FUD.
http://blindscribblings.com - Tasty pop-culture in conceptual fashion.