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3D Printing May Face Legal Challenges

angry tapir writes "A coming revolution in 3D printing, with average consumers able to copy and create new three-dimensional objects at home, may lead to attempts by patent holders to expand their legal protections, a paper from Public Knowledge says. Patent holders may see 3D printers as threats, and they may try to sue makers of the printers or the distributors of CAD (computer-aided design) blueprints, according to digital rights group Public Knowledge."

316 comments

  1. Worried? by Joce640k · · Score: 3, Funny

    Right, because a lumpy plastic copy of an item is just as good as the real thing....

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    No sig today...
    1. Re:Worried? by Chrisq · · Score: 5, Funny

      Right, because a lumpy plastic copy of an item is just as good as the real thing....

      Well, your wife told me that she actually thinks its better.

    2. Re:Worried? by _0rm_ · · Score: 5, Funny

      Flawless victory.

      --
      Boredom is bliss.
    3. Re:Worried? by dcviper · · Score: 2

      Yeah, well just because they are not very good reproductions now doesn't mean anything. Cassette tapes copied from the radio weren't all that great either. RIAA didn't get really worried until we were able to make unlimited perfect copies for essentially nothing, then distribute them around the world. All that aside, call me when the technology does get that good - I want a AR-15 full-auto sear and selector assembly, and it seems like it would be way less risky to make one then to buy one.

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      Ummm, err, say what, now?
    4. Re:Worried? by Gaygirlie · · Score: 0, Redundant

      Ouch, touché!! :D

    5. Re:Worried? by SuricouRaven · · Score: 2

      Depends on the item. I, for one, would like a printer capable of producing the plastic drive-bay covers that go in the front of a particular model of computer case.

    6. Re:Worried? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ZING!

    7. Re:Worried? by Ephemeriis · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Right, because a lumpy plastic copy of an item is just as good as the real thing....

      Nobody is going to printing up an HD TV anytime soon, that's true. But that does not suggest that there is no room for existing 3D printers to step on toes.

      You could probably print up something fairly similar to a LEGO brick right now. Or, if not LEGO, then a DUPLO certainly. And there's definitely money to be had there. I don't know that you could really make money printing your own bricks and selling them... But you could probably save some money by printing your own bricks instead of buying them. Especially if you just need a couple more to finish out a project and you don't really want to buy a whole kit or pay for shipping & handling on just a couple pieces.

      You could also probably use a 3D printer to generate a mold out of plastic or wax or something, and then cast something inside it. Imagine being able to turn out your own lead/plastic/pewter/whatever miniatures. Games Workshop would pitch a fit.

      And then there's all the licensed merchandise... Probably wouldn't be too hard to turn out some cheap beads or pendants or rings with various licensed characters on them, only without actually paying anybody for the likeness.

      --
      "Work is the curse of the drinking classes." -Oscar Wilde
    8. Re:Worried? by Teancum · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The concern wasn't that "we" were able to make unlimited perfect copies for essentially nothing. The real threat was that there was no need for an expensive recording studio to make fairly decent audio recordings and that many performers wouldn't have to go through the studio system in order to get their music "published".

      Let's get the situation nailed down here. It was people going to concerts with tape recorders and other recording devices, as well as cameras in movie theaters that were the first areas that the **AA got serious about copyright enforcement against ordinary consumers and more casual kinds of copying that in earlier years was considered "fair-use".

      Yes, there has been problems with peer-to-peer filesharing and people setting up web pages of all of their favorite MP3 files saying "here is some music I ripped off my favorite CD... have at it". They make a whole bunch of bluster about that fact, but it really isn't impacting their bottom line all that much and in fact such distribution amounts to mainly marketing rather than actual lost sales.

      In terms of damage done, it is the recordable CD that has scared the RIAA much more than network distribution of music. They are being cut out of the loop and simply are no longer involved with the production and distribution of a fairly substantial amount of music, where they are also losing market share and suffering from sales simply because the stuff they are producing is garbage. Another huge problem facing "the music industry" (as represented by the RIAA) is that new talent is being skipped over and ignored. About the only way for them to get fresh blood into the industry any more is some extravagant thing like American Idol, which still skips over a whole bunch of journeymen musicians who are fairly decent but not good enough to go all of the way to the top.

      I think guys like Simon Cowell "gets it" that there are whole groups of talent that aren't getting recorded any more, even if I think his methods for finding talent are mostly showmanship rather than fixing the problem. Some major industry execs also get the problem, but not all of them, and certainly not the RIAA lawyers or for that matter those making the decisions on where to push back within the RIAA, especially as the RIAA isn't going to be making money (getting more dues paid. hence getting larger salaries) if they change tactics to embrace network distribution as a way of life and something good for the industry. Instead, they are simply fading away to irrelevance. Good for them, too, as we really don't need blood sucking lawyers like that anyway.

    9. Re:Worried? by gomiam · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      I would worry less about her being his wife, and more about her comparing the plastic and you ;)

    10. Re:Worried? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And you asked her for advice because?

    11. Re:Worried? by Builder · · Score: 2, Informative

      RIAA didn't get really worried until we were able to make unlimited perfect copies for essentially nothing

      Really? Because I'm pretty sure the RIAA were behind the whole 'Home taping is killing music' campaign - they seemed plenty worried from where I was sitting.

    12. Re:Worried? by VolciMaster · · Score: 3, Informative

      I want a AR-15 full-auto sear and selector assembly, and it seems like it would be way less risky to make one then to buy one.

      If 3D printers printed metal, that may be true. Of course, some of the now-entry-level "home" CNC machines can do this

    13. Re:Worried? by andrewbaldwin · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I know you meant it rhetorically but...

      I can see some markets being worried -- I'm looking with particular bitterness at the car parts business.

      A few years ago I had a headlamp work loose on my car. On inspection the problem was the failure of a small (possibly deliberately feeble) plastic bracket which looked like it suffered a fatigue fracture. I had both parts which fitted together nicely but there was no hope of a simple repair with adhesive.

      The cost for the replacement part (which had all of about 5p worth of plastic) was something like £15 [IIRC]. The car manufacturer, dealer and third party parts suppliers knew that their customers had to buy replacements, knew that the plastic part was sufficiently weirdly shaped to avoid work-arounds and knew that repair shops didn't care how much it cost as they could just pass it onto the customer. They were delighted that they could get away with charging such extortionate amounts.

      Now fast forward to a case where the parts could be glued together (the strength doesn't matter) and then scanned / reprinted. Although it wouldn't be economical to get the printer for one single repair, a corner-shop facility charging, say £2.50 -- even as much as £5.00 -- would make themselves a nice return (and reach break-even quickly) and people like me would be happy with a significant saving.

      This is the scenario which the vested interests would like to kill off.

    14. Re:Worried? by necro81 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      As one who uses this technology on a daily basis, I wholeheartedly agree with your sentiment. 3D printing is not a 1:1 substitute for finished parts made by other, more widely practiced methods. The results from FDM, SLS, SLA, EBM, and other methods can be good, but unless the finished part is meant to be manufactured using those methods, the printed versions are generally inferior by many measures to the real thing made by machining, injection molding, casting, stamping, etc.

      Also, as with paper printers, the quality you get from a rapid prototyping machine tends to be directly proportional to the cost of the machine and the materials. Most rapid prototyping technologies can't produce the tight tolerances needed for parts to fit together, or fine features like threads and snap features. In the end, what you get is a rough part that will often need some finish operations. I mean no offense to the team behind the MakerBot and other projects, but the output from those devices is more like a casting than a finished part.

      The class of parts for which rapid prototyping is a suitable manufacturing method is very small. Look around you at the stuff you interact with every day: very little of it can be made at any reasonable cost or quality using rapid prototyping.

      And even if rapid prototyping, as a technology, could produce quality imitations of common parts, it only becomes an issue when the technology becomes ubiquitous. I don't mean when every half-assed machine shop has one; I mean when every household has one just like they have a inkjet or laser printer. Even then, I doubt that we'll see much impact, because the cost of the materials will still be high (think of the cost of paper and ink), and the production time is still very long, compared to how things are mass produced today. The cost to duplicate and transmit a CAD model may be low, but the costs to create that CAD model and manipulate it are relatively high, and it still costs a lot, in time and material, to produce it in the real world. When it comes to physical parts, there isn't any comparison to an iPod holding 10,000 CDs' worth of music.

      Do people think that music piracy would have taken off if everyone still used CD players, blank CD-Rs cost $5/ea, a music ripping computer cost $2,000, and CD-burners were limited to 0.5x speed? The ubiquity of (paper) printers and the easy availability of soft copies of books hasn't meant that book binders are going out of business. The physical book industry is hurting, true, but not because huge numbers of people are printing off their own pirated copy of the latest best-seller.

      Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe the cost of these printers and their materials will drop like a stone, just as it did for desktop printers. I really doubt it, however.

    15. Re:Worried? by sznupi · · Score: 1

      What isn't made of a lumpy plastic nowadays?

      --
      One that hath name thou can not otter
    16. Re:Worried? by sgbett · · Score: 2, Informative

      Replicating citadel miniatures is pretty simple for anyone with the inclination to do so. Even full of the incompetence of youth I managed to knock out a few extra space marines when I was a kid for the cost. Fair use? Maybe not, but I didn't have the cash to go buy them so they weren't lost sales either.

      --
      Invaders must die
    17. Re:Worried? by Carnivore · · Score: 5, Informative

      There are actually 3D printers that can do metal, with a sintering process.

      http://www.shapeways.com/about/metal-3d-printing

    18. Re:Worried? by wealthychef · · Score: 1

      Your scenario I would argue is where their intellectual property rights should hold up. If people are making their stuff for a profit, then that should be illegal. Of course, IP rights should expire in like 3 years to reflect the pace of innovation. The current laws are made to reflect innovation rates and methods of the early 20th century. Fucking lawyers need to be whipped. Sorry, that last part is my legal Turet's kicking in.

      --
      Currently hooked on AMP
    19. Re:Worried? by Teancum · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I have heard about some attempts to do some 3D printing of simple integrated circuits... essentially something like the early 7400 series chips. It might be nice to be able to print out a couple 7402 circuits or something similar. There would be some advantage to that, even if a good programmable logic chip of some kind is likely to give you much better performance at a fraction of the cost for any kind of complex circuit.

      As far as Lego bricks, I think any sort of patent has experied on them, although there may still be copyright & trademark protections to worry about. As long as you don't claim they are Legos (selling under a different brand) you are likely to be safe to make your own bricks in that way. Some of the more speciailized bricks for the fancy models might have patent protection, but not the basic stackable brick.

      As for how much money you will save making your own bricks, I would think that Lego could use scales of economy to undercut any cost savings by making a brick with a 3-D printer, at least for awhile. If it is cheaper to print them, that only shows the profit margin that the company has making them, and something easily fixed.

      I'm not saying that such a cost savings is always going to be the case, and 3D printers may get cheap enough to mass produce stuff like Lego bricks to be cheaper than other manufacturing processes, but that seems unlikely in the near future.

    20. Re:Worried? by Teancum · · Score: 2, Interesting

      This is also where an "open source" type fabrication model would be even more beneficial, as you would have some people with a little bit of expertise in the area that would look at this bracket and perhaps make some minor tweaks to the design (which would move it out of any patent claims because it is a different part) and make a bracket that would hold out much, much longer including suggested materials that are different than the "planned obsolescence" parts designed to deliberately fall apart.

      Then again that sort of "aftermarket" design approach would really get car manufacturers worried too.

    21. Re:Worried? by Jon+Abbott · · Score: 2, Informative

      Even then, I doubt that we'll see much impact, because the cost of the materials will still be high (think of the cost of paper and ink), and the production time is still very long, compared to how things are mass produced today. The cost to duplicate and transmit a CAD model may be low, but the costs to create that CAD model and manipulate it are relatively high, and it still costs a lot, in time and material, to produce it in the real world.

      Very good point. We recently purchased a Stratasys uPrint 3D printer at work and realized that the sample objects it prints (like a crescent-style wrench with working worm gear) cost $12 in materials to make. While I imagine that the model and support material cost will eventually go way down, at this time it is the same price (or cheaper) to buy the real thing. The real benefit to such a device is that you can create objects that don't currently exist.

    22. Re:Worried? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      Well, your wife told me that she actually thinks its better.

      That was because someone used the "enlarge" option on the printer.

    23. Re:Worried? by TooMuchToDo · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I built one of the MakerBot plastic 3D printers (from the kit). I can print LEGO blocks without a problem (not that I would though, I've got far more important things to build like plastic prototypes before I send the SketchUp file off to be milled from a piece of steel/aluminum).

    24. Re:Worried? by Ephemeriis · · Score: 1

      I'm not talking about some rival company starting up a 3D printing business and trying to out-sell LEGO or whoever. I'm talking about printing it yourself, at home.

      Copyright law was originally intended to deal with rogue publishers. Somebody getting their own printing press and rolling out thousands of copies of some book. Or pressing thousands of discs for some new bit of software.

      But with the advent of ebooks, and desktop publishing, and relatively cheap printers, and photocopiers, and CD burners, and bittorrent and whatever else we're seeing individuals making one or two copies of something that the copyright owners would rather they didn't.

      I'm wondering if common 3D printers will do something similar for physical objects.

      You won't be printing terribly complex objects... And you won't be turning them out of high-strength materials... At least not right away...

      But I'm wondering if the manufacturers of unique/identifiable products will be freaking out when individuals can print out their own cheap knock-offs, instead of buying the real thing.

      --
      "Work is the curse of the drinking classes." -Oscar Wilde
    25. Re:Worried? by Teancum · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Most of the machine shops near where I live right now have 3D printers to make the rough blanks for whatever it is that they are working with. They will print the part and then take it to a lathe or some other machine to do some final milling, but they are already using the process to speed up the fabrication process for more obscure parts. The high precision tolerances aren't necessary in every dimension for every part, and a 3D printer sometimes will provide more consistency for some aspects that traditional machining methods don't always perform.

      I can find analogs to this with early CD-R recorders and the expensive blanks like you were talking about here. When blank CD-Rs cost about $5 each (about the upper limit I ever saw, and that was usually just the retail price in a computer store... even then wholesale costs were cheaper) it was still at a price point that a small garage band could burn a copy of their music and hand them out to fans, friends, and perhaps make a little bit of money on the side. It took somebody who was skilled with the equipment to make the CD recordings, but it did happen. That is pretty much where 3D printing is right now.

      The problem is that the 3D printers used by these machine shops typically cost in the tens of thousands of dollars range, not just a couple thousand. It also takes more technical skills to use the stuff produced by these printers including access to some more specialized tools as the part coming straight off the printer isn't being used all of the time. Perhaps this will eventually get fixed and the resolution for the "voxels" (3D equivalent of a pixel) will improve over time. I've seen that with 2D scanning technology and printing, so I see that as a definite possibility.

    26. Re:Worried? by jabuzz · · Score: 1

      The first DVD recorder cost in the UK over 20,000GBP which Google tells me is around 32,000USD. I cannot remember what the blanks cost, but I do remember they only had a capacity of 3.95GB, and the burner was only good for around 1,000 discs. That was circa 1998, wind forward 12 years and a burner is under 20GBP now does all formats including dual layer.

    27. Re:Worried? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh snap... I didn't know the lumpy plastic copies of the real thing have brains now...

      Really brings new meaning to thinking with the other head.

    28. Re:Worried? by bruce_the_loon · · Score: 1

      IIRC, the patent on the Lego block has expired, which is why you can buy buckets of plain blocks from other manufacturers that interlock with Lego lego. And is also why Lego has been whoring itself to every movie/tv franchise possible. If I cannot be the only kid on the block with blocks, I'll be the only one with Harry Potter and Pirates of the Caribbean.

      So yes, you can make Legos blocks by 3D printer, or by injection mold, and sell them and Lego GMBH can do nothing. But don't do Hermione or Captain Jack :)

      If I'm wrong about the patent, flame me please.

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    29. Re:Worried? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually games workshop encourages the use of self made models in their games... And modified models (They even have a competition for best made and painted models that does not favor their own stock models) so I don't think you will see the big objection from there...

      Lego will fight it because they have patents and have fought others who made bricks compatible with Lego's.

      In general however you will see these lawsuits coming from Tupperware and other lowtech companies that suddenly (end especially in the future) sees their business disappear, just like the record business have tried to sue anyone from loudspeaker companies over computer manufacturers and writeable CD manufacturers and resellers to their own customers for being able to listen to music they only paid for once, on different media... Claiming the end of their business will happen because of it...

    30. Re:Worried? by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1

      If you're debating morality of the issue, I see another factor in this example: The copyrighted item (The weirdly shaped plastic) doesn't actually contribute to culture or science. In fact, it has no purpose at all other than to increase the profit from car repairs. There is not even a reason for it to be weirdly shaped, except to make it copyrightable. It's a use of copyright that may be within the letter of the law, but isn't within it's intention - akin to situations like suing critics of a book for violating copyright by quoteing it, or deliberatly introducing a copyrighted required component into a computer program to prevent your customers from leaving for a competitor.

    31. Re:Worried? by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1

      They'd probably ask the government to ban the use of any component design that hadn't been through £10,000 worth of tests, claiming it was to improve safety. Just enough that it's small change to them, and unaffordable to hobbyists.

    32. Re:Worried? by delinear · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I've said this before, only partly in jest, that if we ever get to the point where it's possible to create a Star Trek type replicator, far from triggering a Utopia, the project would get nuked from orbit by IP lawyers.

    33. Re:Worried? by Nadaka · · Score: 1

      Legos are perfect to down the the scale of micrometers. That is one of the reasons that they have stayed successful while their copycats have mostly failed or barely survived. No other interlocking plastic brick is as well fit. No home prototyping machine will be capable of duplicating that precision.

    34. Re:Worried? by delinear · · Score: 1

      Fig "duping" was common even back in the 90's, when I used to frequent various GW-related newsgroups. Of course, the moulds had to be manually made and there was probably some extra effort required to do so, but certainly this isn't a practice that started with 3D printers, although I guess the music analogue is going from CD-to-tape to CD-to-MP3 in terms of ease and ability to churn them out.

    35. Re:Worried? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Spot on. This new nerd lust for 3D printing is incomprehensible to me. It's just a tool process in a long chain of processes before getting a real, usable part in your hands. It is not a Star Trek replicator, no matter how hard nerds wish it to be so. It just isn't. This makes about as much sense as realtors being upset that someone is selling real estate in space. It's so far away from being viable, it's a joke.

    36. Re:Worried? by kimvette · · Score: 1

      However, what you failed to mention was that the copy is a 300% enlargement.

      --
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    37. Re:Worried? by delinear · · Score: 1

      Creating items that don't currently exist, but also emergency replacements for parts that are mission critical (even if you plan to replace them with authentic eventually) without having to predict what will fail and having a huge stock on hand, and also copies of otherwise prohibitively expensive parts (perhaps because they're such specialist parts), I guess.

    38. Re:Worried? by silas_moeckel · · Score: 1

      Funny people were doing just that years ago. I got a new truck the back seat windows were attached with a flimsy piece of plastic to hold them open. Sure they replaced them under contract but once that was over some guy on the truck enthusiast forums had replicated that part in aluminum and was selling them for 10 bucks a pair vs the 45 each from Toyota. Now I am sure Toyota would hate to see this happening more and more as people actually fixing thing is much less profitable than making it work again for awhile. I grew up watching construction crews fix things and if you were smart you fixed them so they did not break again, you get a stress crack on a machine you do not just weld it back together you also plate it to make it stronger so it never happens again. Replacing a part is not fixing the problem is the physical worlds version of rebooting the server, it fixes nothing only gets it working again.

      --
      No sir I dont like it.
    39. Re:Worried? by wealthychef · · Score: 1

      I'm not debating morality -- that's always a lost cause, because morality is very subjective. I'm just saying that in your case, I'm pretty sure your car is at least 3 years old -- make your own part, because the patent on your gadget has expired in my world anyhow. Whether its weird shape is patentable should be the call of the Patent Office, which from what I can tell is full of people too busy to actually do their job or something, so they give patents to anything and then you have to sue to enforce it, a very inefficient system.

      --
      Currently hooked on AMP
    40. Re:Worried? by WalkingBear · · Score: 1

      "Right, because a low bitrate lossy compressed version of a song is as good as the real thing on CD..."

      there, FIFY.

      It's the same mentality and this article is more about discussing the application of that insanity to the world of physical objects and 3D printers.

    41. Re:Worried? by scaverdilly · · Score: 1

      Wow, that was below the belt!

    42. Re:Worried? by mcvos · · Score: 1

      You could probably print up something fairly similar to a LEGO brick right now. Or, if not LEGO, then a DUPLO certainly. And there's definitely money to be had there. I don't know that you could really make money printing your own bricks and selling them... But you could probably save some money by printing your own bricks instead of buying them.

      Do you have any idea of the accuracy of the manufacturing process for lego bricks? There are competing companies that sell compatible bricks (they're not allowed to call them LEGO, nor can they include the logo, but everything else is fair), and those bricks suck in comparison. They're either too loose, or they fit so tightly you can't separate them anymore. I really doubt a home 3D printer can get anywhere near the micrometer accuracy of LEGO or even their competitors, and I also doubt you'll be able to compete with them on price. After all, professional printers are also still in business, despite the fact that everybody has their own ink jet.

      Still, might be useful if you just need one particular piece. Especially when it's a piece that doesn't even exist yet!

      You could also probably use a 3D printer to generate a mold out of plastic or wax or something, and then cast something inside it. Imagine being able to turn out your own lead/plastic/pewter/whatever miniatures. Games Workshop would pitch a fit.

      They would. And their stuff is so incredibly overpriced that I think printing your own army would be economically very attractive. I don't doubt you can sell them at a tidy profit too. Until GW finds out and sues you into bankruptcy, which they will.

      But really, making your own designs and sharing them with others, is where the real fun is, if you ask me.

    43. Re:Worried? by JonJ · · Score: 1

      So it's about 15"?

      --
      -- Linux user #369862
    44. Re:Worried? by mcvos · · Score: 2, Informative

      Actually games workshop encourages the use of self made models in their games... And modified models (They even have a competition for best made and painted models that does not favor their own stock models) so I don't think you will see the big objection from there...

      Don't fool yourself. GW has rules that you're only allowed to use their models in tournaments. Even when playing the game with friends, in fact, but they can't really enforce that in any way.

      What they encourage people to do, is for people to buy several of their models, cut them up, and turn them into one really awesome and unique model. They call them conversions, because they convert an existing model into something new. But truly home-made stuff is heavily frowned upon. They only approve of stuff that brings your money to their pocket.

    45. Re:Worried? by mcvos · · Score: 1

      They don't really need to compete on licenses (though I don't doubt it's commercially attractive for them). Their bricks are of much higher quality than those of the competition. I doubt there's any other toy that's produced with that kind of precision, whereas competitors' models fall apart when you look at them.

    46. Re:Worried? by eleuthero · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Somehow, I think that the end result would be something along the lines of the printer industry now. There are a few big players who make a bundle off of the ink. Other players get in with replacement ink using refilled cartridges that (at least in my experience) have a tendency to leak over time. IP lawyers will complain, but again with relation to existing technology, Sony (or someone like them) will sell MP3s (or blueprints) on the one hand and ripping software (or 3D scanners) on the other while complaining about lost profits that actually aren't lost.

      I think I am more looking towards the advent of holodeck type work than 3D printers though (and no, I don't mean on the level of Star Trek, but perhaps more along the lines of Paycheck or Minority Report).

    47. Re:Worried? by mcvos · · Score: 1

      It is not a Star Trek replicator, no matter how hard nerds wish it to be so.

      It's just a matter of time before 3D printers come with a supply of Earl Grey molecules.

    48. Re:Worried? by eleuthero · · Score: 1

      There have been a number of court cases on this. Lego's wikipedia entry is helpful. You are right to note the end of the patent. I am a bit confused as to why the trademark was thrown out by Canada, though, as it would seem to be a fairly reasonable trademark to have approved, but then, IANAL.

      More than copyright and licensing agreements is stopping Tyco and MegaBlocks from becoming the more popular toy in this area though--if you build something out of Lego, it is much more likely to hold up, even under outdoor conditions than Tyco and Megablocks pieces (though the mb pieces are better than Tyco). Resale on Lego is higher for more than just collector appreciation reasons, the pieces simply hold up better over time.

    49. Re:Worried? by eleuthero · · Score: 1

      No home prototyping machine will be capable of duplicating that precision.

      ... yet. Further, it isn't just a matter of machining but of the type of plastic used. The Chinese-made megablocks are a lower grade of plastic (presumably cheaper?) and a quick test out in the sun/wind/rain/snow will have the lego block still fairly sturdy and the megablock a brittle piece of trash (though I've heard Lego has changed their formula recently to cut costs :().

    50. Re:Worried? by Teancum · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The first DVD recorder that I had access to had a serial number of three digits and cost about $10k. The salesman I talked to at the time said it was one of the first ones sold in the Western USA. The blanks at the time cost the company I was working for about $10 each. There was no mention in terms of the number of discs it would produce, but we had contracts in hand to mass produce DVDs once we had the original data formatted properly to make them for about $1 each in quantities of about 1000 and suggestions that price would go down considerably from there.

      I wrote the authoring system being used to make those discs at the time, which is one of the reasons why I had access to such early technology. I don't know if some GST tax or some other costs involved in terms of UK sales, but that at least was my own experience.

      The problem here is that I don't see the price dropping as significantly for 3D printers. The Fab@Home printer costs roughly $2k (about 1K GBP, give or take some) and that price has been pretty steady. It also has some strong limitations and most of the stuff created with that printer is mostly plastic stuff or some pastries being done with frosting. The printers that work with metal are still in the tens of thousands of dollars range, and haven't really dropped much in price.

    51. Re:Worried? by j00r0m4nc3r · · Score: 1

      The results from FDM, SLS, SLA, EBM, and other methods can be good, but unless the finished part is meant to be manufactured using those methods, the printed versions are generally inferior by many measures to the real thing made by machining, injection molding, casting, stamping, etc.

      For now...

    52. Re:Worried? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There are already corner shops. Redeye and Quickparts are two that I use. For prototyping, they are great. But even with their automated systems, economies of scale, and relatively modern rapid prototype machines, the parts have a lousy surface finish and price is pretty high. Cheaper than other prototyping methods, but you're going to pay at least $20 for a very small part. A bracket the headlamp would cost at least $100, probably more. And not be as strong as the original.

      As someone who used "3D printing" all the time to make plastic, ceramic, and metal parts (both as final parts and as molds), the tech is still very far from mainstream.

    53. Re:Worried? by dubbreak · · Score: 1

      I want a AR-15 full-auto sear and selector assembly, and it seems like it would be way less risky to make one then to buy one.

      If 3D printers printed metal, that may be true. Of course, some of the now-entry-level "home" CNC machines can do this

      Really? How is it safer to build a full-auto sear for your gun then go buy one than just going to buy one? Is having a full auto weapon a prerequisite to buying one?

      That's like it being cheaper to bake your own cake then buy one. Yeah you saved money on the second cake, but do you really need two cakes? And why does the bakery give you a discount for being able to bake a cake? Seems pretty silly to me.

      --
      "If you are going through hell, keep going." - Winston Churchill
    54. Re:Worried? by Joce640k · · Score: 2, Informative

      Assuming we can increase resolution get rid of the lumps, it's still going to be very difficult to change the material.

      Very few materials will form solids from liquids by shining lights on them and most objects are made of multiple materials, eg. you'd never be able to print a working cassette tape, a toy car, a computer mouse.

      At best you'll be able to make things like a new case for your remote control after you drop it. Even then it's unlikely to be exactly the same color and feel as the original.

      --
      No sig today...
    55. Re:Worried? by Joce640k · · Score: 1

      I can't imagine there's any money to be made by selling copied stuff - if that's your aim then just find a foreign company who can churn out molded plastic trinkets by the million.

      --
      No sig today...
    56. Re:Worried? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't know. Years ago, probably around 1994 or so, I had a company send me some literature and a sample of what they could do with 3D printing. It was a fully working crescent wrench that was pretty damn strong and looked just like a real wrench. I would imagine in the past 16 years, they've probably improved the process a lot more.

      If I had $15K to spend, I'd get a 3D printer just so I could create and print up a bunch of cool models. It would sure beat assembling those flimsy papercraft deals.

    57. Re:Worried? by mark-t · · Score: 1

      "...yet."

      Agreed, although bear in mind that the above poster did say "You could probably print up something fairly similar to a LEGO brick right now." [emphasis mine]

    58. Re:Worried? by interkin3tic · · Score: 1

      Right, because a lumpy plastic copy of an item is just as good as the real thing....

      In some cases, yes, it is. Literally. Kids toys for one. I don't expect Mattel to say "Welp, we had a good run" and retire when you can print out a Barbie Doll for almost free.

      Disney and McDonalds will team up to hire assassins to kill off the manufacturers of 3d printers the first time one of their Disney movie themed happy meal toys are cloned.

    59. Re:Worried? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well that's it, isn't it? If you really want a "3D printer", you'll need to keep on hand every single chemical feedstock that's needed to make all the different plastics out there, plus pigments.

      It's a joke, a bad one. It's great fun, but it's far far far away from being the replicator-style menace to red-blooded capitalism that people think.

    60. Re:Worried? by ELCouz · · Score: 1

      Whoosh!

    61. Re:Worried? by Locke2005 · · Score: 1

      You seriously underestimate the worldwide sales of dildos...

      --
      I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
    62. Re:Worried? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      IC fabrication processes have always been not unlike how 3D printing works - although you lay down a layer at a time instead of a bead at a time, and it makes use of subtractive as well as additive processes. It's just that you need machines that can vaporize gold and lay it down in fine layers which are consistent to extreme tolerances, and that can etch almost straight down through thick layers of material, and an array of extremely toxic chemicals which react with a specific set of materials while leaving others alone, and so forth. It's not something which is likely to occur at home any time soon. On the other hand, with modern programmable ICs, you can get quite far before needing a custom IC.

    63. Re:Worried? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not to mention fire bombed by union organizers for making their jobs obsolete. While Star Trek depicts replicators as ending famine, etc. a true replicator society would leave most jobless and prone to destruction out of boredom.

    64. Re:Worried? by Professr3 · · Score: 1

      You do realize that the only legal fully-automatic firearms cost $50,000+, right? It's supply and demand - there were only a certain number of these firearms in circulation before the automatic weapons ban, so it's only those firearms that are still legal for fully-automatic use by non-government, non-law-enforcement people.

      By building his own full-auto sear, he will essentially a) prevent the ATF from knowing he has a fully-automatic weapon, and b) escape having to pay $50,000+ for the privilege of spraying a few bullets rapid-fire at a paper target.

    65. Re:Worried? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I can honestly say that the new foreign made blocks are also of lower quality than the Denmark produced ones. I've bought a few sets here and there in the past 4 years (a few more since they got a Lego Store in town) and the fitment of them is decidely not up to my older blocks standards. Some of the base colors pieces are slightly off-color from my older original pieces, some of the more complicated 'new' pieces don't snap in as tightly as the older ones, and even a few of the base bricks seem to be 'sucked in' instead of flat outer surfaces.

      But it's possible that's just me.

      I still love me some legos, but the build quality honestly doesn't seem to stand up to the older standards.

    66. Re:Worried? by i_b_don · · Score: 1

      I'm confused. What IP are you talking about? The types of things that these machines can make are all out of patent and are being mass produced in china today. Basically what you're replicating are things that can be made with molded plastic. What IP is in debate here?

      For music there is copyright rules. If you could theoretically copy exactly some Gucci bag, then great, you have issues, but if you left off the logo and made some small changes, no legal problems. However, we're currently so far away from that we might as well be talking about teleporter technology instead of this.

      (The company I work for owns a 3D printer and I've used in numerous times. It's cool, but not quite as cool as you think.)

      d

      --
      all language nazi's will burne in heil!
    67. Re:Worried? by budgenator · · Score: 1

      My industry is heading into this area, after using 3D milling machines going to 3D printers was a natural evolutionary step, especially in areas where thickness is more critical. We do a lot of lost wax investing in the dental lab industry, the basic process is 5,000 years old and is used in many artistic and artisan endeavors. Basically anything you can sculpt in wax or clear resins can be used as long as it burns out ashlessly, just sprue and burn out the resin, using a 3D printer is probably over-kill. You can invest with common industrial molding plaster all the way to silver, Gold or Chrome alloys need high-temperature investments.

      --
      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
    68. Re:Worried? by i_b_don · · Score: 1

      Ok... let's get this straight. patents are about HOW you make something, not about WHAT you make. You can't patent a lego block, you you can patent the process for making lego blocks. But if a competitor figures out a different way to make blocks, they are free to do so as long as they sell them under their own brand name. This is competition. This is free market.

      The place where the real issues will come into play is when you combine a good 3D scanner with a good 3D printer. Then you start to have thorny issues to deal with....

      d

      --
      all language nazi's will burne in heil!
    69. Re:Worried? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Really? Because I'm pretty sure the RIAA were behind the whole 'Home taping is killing music' campaign - they seemed plenty worried from where I was sitting.

      Long before that. Book publishers raged against public libraries (especially the free ones) as damaging sales. As an aside, Ben Franklin did not, as often attributed, start our free public library system. His was a subscription model.

      Don't forget that the TV industry also went insane over the possibility of people inviting others outside their immediate families to watch so that those others who did not buy a set could "freeload".

      For true insanity, review any of Jack Warner's public rants over his pet industry being "victimized".

    70. Re:Worried? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ooooo Sketchup parts, you must be doing really important stuff!

    71. Re:Worried? by Ihmhi · · Score: 1

      Really? I don't know, entertainment-wise I think a holodeck would be awesome, but society-wise I think the replicator is a far, far more important piece of technology.

      During DS9 after the Cardassians got their asses handed to them by the Klingons, the Federation was sending them a dozen industrial replicators to rebuild their industrial base. There would be no need for factories or anything of the sort; just hook these things up to power and get to cranking things out.

    72. Re:Worried? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You think your 25$ plastic piece is expensive? Try 200$ for a similar piece in the US. That is what I last paid for a cheap plastic piece to fix the motorized window in my car door. The piece was small and weighed about 50 grams. This is fairly typical here. Consider yourself lucky.

    73. Re:Worried? by TaoPhoenix · · Score: 1

      Sexuality.

      --
      My first Journal Entry ever, in 8 years! http://slashdot.org/journal/365947/aphelion-scifi-fantasy-horror-poetry-webzine
    74. Re:Worried? by djdanlib · · Score: 1

      Brilliant! Pitch these to gamers!!

      Games Workshop would pitch a fit? I don't really care. Games Workshop only produces so many of these things, and I have to rely on my local game store to stock them. They mostly have the ones nobody bought over the past few years, like the "generic townsfolk" and specific sir-hero-not-appearing-in-my-campaign type minis. I've had to pay upwards of $10 for each one except for rare occasions when I found a three-pack of goblin warriors or skeleton warriors for $15, and then noticed that they didn't restock them. I'm tired of spending money on things that are "oh well, close enough I guess" that some of my players recognize as the wrong ones. I've resorted to using two bags of Munchkin miniatures because I just can't get some stupid lizardman wizard/kobold archer/beholder gauth or something that's glaringly obvious that it's the wrong class. Oh look, a plastic Munchkin, that must be a minion! Kill it first!

      So if I want some particular monster for my campaign, I'd like to make it - perhaps a few days before running the campaign, and I wonder how much it costs?

      Obviously this requires me to be artistic and capable of making models on the computer. Maybe I can employ some of my friends who are looking for freelance work to make me some models, at which point I've spent more money (initially) but then I can justify it by printing a few models. Then I have spent roughly the same amount, made my friends able to pay their rent, and gotten exactly what I needed - and only have to pay for materials if I want more!

      I wonder if doing that would fall afoul of any copyrights?

    75. Re:Worried? by Dthief · · Score: 1

      paper target

      really, thats what you'd shoot at?

      --
      www.RacquetUp.org - Helping Detroit Youth
    76. Re:Worried? by X0563511 · · Score: 1

      Yea, but milled aluminum may not be suitable for the purpose. You'd want something that's less reactive to heat.

      I don't get the point anyways. Automatic fire uses way too much ammunition and is less useful than you'd think. Aimed semi-automatic fire is just as dangerous, if not more so - given that you're deadlier for far longer (seriously, lay out a magazine with an automatic and notice how your magazine is empty in under a second (M4: 700 rounds/minute = 2/second = 30 shots in 15 seconds)

      --
      For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
    77. Re:Worried? by X0563511 · · Score: 1

      Or he could build/buy the sear and selector*, pay $200 for a class-3 tax stamp, and enjoy is non-$50,000 fully-automatic weapon.

      * - not sure how building works, i'm not a smith

      (you know the assault weapons ban is gone? there's still the classification system in place (points for features, past a given count of points it's now class 3 and you need a license and tax stamp)

      --
      For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
    78. Re:Worried? by budgenator · · Score: 1

      The ubiquity of (paper) printers and the easy availability of soft copies of books hasn't meant that book binders are going out of business. The physical book industry is hurting, true, but not because huge numbers of people are printing off their own pirated copy of the latest best-seller.

      Artisan book-binderies are doing quite well. People are spending considerable amounts of money on getting their books well bound, much more than they'd spend on a purchasing a traditionally published book. Book-bindery is also extensively practiced as a hobby or boutique profession.

      --
      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
    79. Re:Worried? by X0563511 · · Score: 1

      Voyager showed the holodeck being used for simulation and prototyping an aweful lot. Why replicate when you can simulate, and only when done actually manufacture the peice? I'd say if we only had one or the other, the holodeck would be the "best" choice simply because of the versatility of use.

      Not to mention you know the porn industry would be behind it (pun intended)

      --
      For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
    80. Re:Worried? by f.ardelian · · Score: 1

      Dude, just take a look at Bon Jovi right now (the content behind this link will expire soon). They gave a live concert and they distributed it freely to everyone with access to YouTube. The concert took place at 01:00 AM GMT on Oct 11th 2010. At the time of this writing, they keep re-playing it over and over. Still free... And just because of this, I am going to one of their concerts next year!

      --
      I'm being Insightful or I'm trying to be funny. Seriously, no trolling! Maybe!
    81. Re:Worried? by X0563511 · · Score: 1

      However, these materials could in turn be used as a positive to create a mold for the -other- materials.

      Or, done intelligently, would form the actual mold.

      --
      For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
    82. Re:Worried? by TooMuchToDo · · Score: 1

      SketchUp for the quick/dirty/imprecise stuff, AutoCAD for the high quality stuff.

    83. Re:Worried? by phatshambler2k1 · · Score: 1

      Titanium powder EBM 3D printers aren't exactly cheap, I wouldn't worry too much about 3D pirates for now. Unless they start using gold, then we have a problem on our hands!

    84. Re:Worried? by sorak · · Score: 1

      Posted one minutes after the original comment. You're the man!

    85. Re:Worried? by w0mprat · · Score: 1

      Something like a star trek replicator, which can print nutritious food and complex objects down to the nano scale, should also be able to print living organisms. Possibly even people.

      I'd just print an army of IP lawyers to counter-sue.

      --
      After logging in slashdot still does not take you back to the page you were on. It's been that way for 20 years.
    86. Re:Worried? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      AutoCAD? I take it you haven't been introduced to a real Solid Modelling CAD package yet?

    87. Re:Worried? by cdrguru · · Score: 1

      I suggest reading "Venus Equilateral" by George Smith. In these stories a replicator is produced and the people that made it end up in court. The main engineer responsible for this device decides it would be fun to replicate the Judge's antique watch. He turns out a dozen copies rendering the rare antique watch essentially valueless, thus earning the wrath of the judge. It doesn't go well for them.

      We are a long, long way from discovering an economic system which could handle some kind of replicator. We have not figured out how to manage an economy where two countries have vastly different views on human rights, pollution and such as well has having widely disparate wages.

      Long before we can handle unlimited production of goods at low cost we need to figure out how we are going to deal with a non-working population because most of the people in such an environment aren't going to be working. Is it the responsibility of the working citizens to support (and entertain) the non-working ones? Or do we push real hard on some real Darwinism and Malthusian ethics and cut the population enough such that there simply aren't any people sitting around idle?

    88. Re:Worried? by bruce_the_loon · · Score: 2, Informative

      They patented how the blocks would interlock and work together. Google link to the patent. http://www.google.com/patents?id=dNtXAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4&dq=3005282#v=onepage&q&f=false

      --
      Trying to become famous by taking photos. Visit my homepage please.
    89. Re:Worried? by w0mprat · · Score: 1

      Economies of scale applies here. Anything of volume production will be safe. Simply put, stuff made in a full scale factory will always be better, cheaper more accurately produced than anything out of a home 3D printer.

      3D printers will mean few companies will get away with extortionate overpriced spare parts for things.

      --
      After logging in slashdot still does not take you back to the page you were on. It's been that way for 20 years.
    90. Re:Worried? by i_b_don · · Score: 1

      Ah, thank you for the informative link. Yes, you can also patent how something works, which is what was patented here. I over looked that because of the simplicity of the lego itself. (Wow, 49 years ago.)

      d

      --
      all language nazi's will burne in heil!
    91. Re:Worried? by Ihmhi · · Score: 1

      Well, my viewpoint comes from facts like 1/6th of the people in the world don't have access to clean water.

      A replicator is essentially an alchemy machine. Break down matter, convert it to energy, and convert it back into anything else (so long as it can fit in the replicator slot - hence why there are ostensibly much larger "industrial" replicators).

      A holodeck would be great scientifically. You could do all sorts of wonderful things like creating prototypes, running experiments in relative safety, etc. But a replicator would mean the end of scarcity of everything. No food shortages, no oil shortages, no lack of clean water, no lack of medicine, etc. It would also mean the end of hazardous materials, largely. Nuclear waste? Put it in the replicator and have it broken down. Styrofoam cups, plastics, all of those things that won't biodegrade - no problem!

      I'd prefer that the whole world has proper nutrition, hydration, and medical care over some scientists and people in the first world having a fun new toy.

      To answer your question "Why replicate what you can simulate?": because simulations don't keep people fed, hydrated, and healthy.

    92. Re:Worried? by X0563511 · · Score: 1

      Then I posit this: Get the holodeck first, and work on the replicator with that. If they could simulate breaking the transwarp barrier, then they should be able to simulate the replicator - note that the replicator would be simulated, but not the matter that had been transformed on it's way through it. ... are we taking this too seriously? lol

      --
      For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
    93. Re:Worried? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We all have to make sacrifices to support such actions, but listening to Bon Jovi, well you're a braver man than I, and may God have mercy on your soul.

    94. Re:Worried? by Nefarious+Wheel · · Score: 1

      There are actually 3D printers that can do metal, with a sintering process.

      Aye, they can. "Sintering" described as melting something until it's a bit runny, but not totally liquid. Combination of bronze powder and epoxy powder heated with lasers seems to be the go.

      Although it may be a few years before "Tea, Earl Grey, Hot".

      --
      Do not mock my vision of impractical footwear
    95. Re:Worried? by eleuthero · · Score: 1

      As far as the color goes, they did intentionally change the scheme - but the quality has definitely dropped a bit.

    96. Re:Worried? by mabhatter654 · · Score: 1

      because they are already working on integrating different types of materials. Its very close to where you could buy a touch screen LCD and some chips for a cell phone and build the body of the phone around the parts. All that's really missing to doing that is getting a critical mass of hobbiests and third parties involved to make that stuff affordable.

    97. Re:Worried? by jonwil · · Score: 1

      A good thing for the LEGO idea would be to produce parts LEGO wont make but that fans think should exist. There are all sorts of such parts. The hard part would be getting the colors and finish right (especially trans-bits, gold/silver/metallic colors etc)

    98. Re:Worried? by jesset77 · · Score: 1

      If they could simulate breaking the transwarp barrier, then they should be able to simulate the replicator -

      Man, I never thought I'd be able to use this image in a thread. It's just way too farking specific. But here you go. :3

      --
      People willing to trade their freedom of expression for temporary entertainment deserve neither and will lose both.
    99. Re:Worried? by mabhatter654 · · Score: 1

      of course the majority of items purchased are cheap junk that really wouldn't matter what it was made of. The real losers would be things like the Toy market... why not zip off a full set of Star Wars figures... could probably even work surface color in so you didn't have to paint. Warhammer 40K would be a HUGE loser as well.

      As far as industrial patents, most are highly specific. Anybody needing that level of parts has a CNC work center they could pay somebody $15 per hour to knock off whatever they want. Fact of the matter is making your own parts, even for industry is usually a waste of time because it takes things being $1000+ or simply not obtainable before the resources and labor even start to make up, not to mention the quality of a handmade part versus something built on a dedicated machine.

    100. Re:Worried? by cheater512 · · Score: 1

      But why would people need water when they can have simulated water? :)

    101. Re:Worried? by X0563511 · · Score: 1

      You just made my day :)

      --
      For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
    102. Re:Worried? by jesset77 · · Score: 1

      Economics is simply the discipline of more optimally distributing scarce resources.

      A replicator would be a wonderful device, but depending on it's parameters there are guaranteed to be things it cannot replicate. Either scarce, unreplicatable materials (Star Trek "Latinum") or slight benefits of unreplicated products (unreplicated metals might be harder than replicated, or have certain nanoscale properties that cannot be reliably/inexpensively replicated, etc) or time or space or compassion or creativity or sunshine. Whatever cannot be replicated, our economy will then just need to shift to distribute that now relatively scarce commodity to wherever it is needed.

      There will still be work to be done, and the application of Capitalism will still reward those who do the work with the greatest shares of the scarce resources. Should folk choose not to participate, they get the least of whatever is scarce. If they can live that way forever, then I tip my hat to them. :3

      --
      People willing to trade their freedom of expression for temporary entertainment deserve neither and will lose both.
    103. Re:Worried? by dubbreak · · Score: 1

      You do realize my entire post was pointing fun at the GP's misuse of the word then right?

      --
      "If you are going through hell, keep going." - Winston Churchill
    104. Re:Worried? by WCLPeter · · Score: 1

      a true replicator society would leave most jobless

      If you count the mundane "nine to five" jobs the vast majority of people have now then yeah, most people would be "jobless". I say good riddance!

      and prone to destruction out of boredom.

      I can think of at least fifty different things I'd rather be doing in a day than working, none of which I could ever get paid to do but a "true replicator society" would let them become my new "job", I can guarantee I'd never be bored and most people I talk to are the same. Hell, if you want to get some perspective on the "replicator society" talk to most any retired person who wasn't a workaholic, since their material needs are met by a pension they don't have to work for its the closest analog we have, you'll hear of days that were fun, busy, and constant complaints of not having enough time in the day to get everything done. In fact I often find any negativity comes from the workaholic, or those with no imagination, as they will constantly regale you with stories of how boring retired life is and how much they miss work.

    105. Re:Worried? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've said this before, only partly in jest, that if we ever get to the point where it's possible to create a Star Trek type replicator, far from triggering a Utopia, the project would get nuked from orbit by IP lawyers.

      That's why it has to be made in secret, and only announced after the first shipments are sent (but before they get to the stores, so that the employees know to put them in the "stuff you need right now" section). Once one gets out in the wild, it can make more.

    106. Re:Worried? by dotfile · · Score: 1

      Or he could build/buy the sear and selector*, pay $200 for a class-3 tax stamp, and enjoy is non-$50,000 fully-automatic weapon.

      Wrong on SO many levels. We'll start with the most damaging. Building the sear and selector yourself is, in the eyes of the BATFE, manufacturing a machine gun, and will land you a very hefty fine, likely a prison sentence, and a lifetime prohibition on ever owning a firearm. The BATFE feels that way about a shitload of different things, and you really, really do need to understand the regulations before you try anything that will look, in hindsight, monumentally stupid.

      The $200 tax stamp allows you to own an existing, registered, legal full-auto weapon (or suppressor, short barreled rifle or shotgun, etc). It does not in any way, shape or form allow you to convert your AR-15 or AK clone to full auto using new parts. I know there are guys sitting here saying, "Hey, I just saw an ad for a guy selling pre-ban drop-in auto sears, they legal"... yeah, right. Buy one, and write me from prison to tell me how it worked out for you. And yes, you can buy the few M16 parts that make a machine gun - the sear, selector, etc. But you better be damned sure you have a legal M16 to drop them into.

      And there are many, many full auto firearms that can be had for far less than $50K. The last time I looked the going rate for a rock-n-roll MAC-10 was about $3K, and M-16s started around $12K. You can find Stens, Thompsons, Uzis, the list goes on and on. Get out your check book and take your pick. Some are really pricey, some not so much.

      you know the assault weapons ban is gone? there's still the classification system in place (points for features, past a given count of points it's now class 3 and you need a license and tax stamp

      Still wrong. You need a tax stamp (not a license) if it's a machine gun, or a short barreled (under 18") rifle or shotgun, a suppressor, or a very few other special situations. These are commonly known as "NFA" weapons, controlled by the National Firearms Act of 1934. Most except machine guns can be manufactured, as long as you know and religiously follow ALL of the rules ALL of the time, and do ALL of the paperwork BEFORE you start anything.

    107. Re:Worried? by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

      The problem here is that I don't see the price dropping as significantly for 3D printers. The Fab@Home printer costs roughly $2k (about 1K GBP, give or take some) and that price has been pretty steady. It also has some strong limitations and most of the stuff created with that printer is mostly plastic stuff or some pastries being done with frosting. The printers that work with metal are still in the tens of thousands of dollars range, and haven't really dropped much in price.

      The Makerbot is already at $700. Having played with one last week, I think they can get half of the cost out of that. At $350, I'd probably buy one, just 'cause (I don't have a real use for it now).

      Where I think a real opportunity exists is in a local casting shop. Let people play with their plastic parts at home. When they're done and happy with the prototype, send the file to the local caster's and have them make you one out of zinc. Pick it up on the way back from lunch. They'll probably use a plastic machine to make the sand mould.

      Remember the days of bringing a Syquest 44 cart to a service bureau to get some color output? Now I have a $400 color laser printer in my office, just for occasional use. But I'd still send out for large-format or photographic work.

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    108. Re:Worried? by dotfile · · Score: 1

      Check your math there, guy. 700 RPM cyclic rate = 11.6 rounds per second, emptying that 30 round mag in just a hair over 2.5 seconds. That's on the slow side. Colt says the CRC is 700-950 RPM, so it could be as short as 2 seconds.

    109. Re:Worried? by X0563511 · · Score: 1

      Whoops.

      Still quite fast though, I'd say my point is still accurate (if not quite as strong)

      --
      For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
    110. Re:Worried? by X0563511 · · Score: 1

      Obviously you've put more research into this kind of thing. I concede to your points, and thank you for the correction. Someone could have gotten in trouble, and I'd rather that not be on my karma (the real karma).

      --
      For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
    111. Re:Worried? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He could also shoot at cans.

      Mexicans, Puerto Ricans, Africans...

    112. Re:Worried? by Ihmhi · · Score: 1

      Holodeck technology is based on transporter/replicator technology and force fields. You're essentially asking that the car be invented before the covered wagon.

      I would think that nearly anyone in the world would rather have no worries for material wealth compared to a new entertainment medium. Yes, the holodeck can essentially act as a training program or a really advanced AutoCAD, but that's about the extension of its usefulness. Compared to ending the scarcity of all major necessary resources, the holodeck just doesn't stack up IMO.

    113. Re:Worried? by Misagon · · Score: 1

      LEGO-compatible bricks exist, and are legal, because the patent has expired. One example is Hello Kitty bricks.

      However, LEGO bricks are cast with quite high tolerances to connect properly. I have not seen that 3D printers have that precision yet.

      --
      "We mustn't be caught by surprise by our own advancing technology" -- Aldous Huxley
    114. Re:Worried? by TooMuchToDo · · Score: 1

      I use what I already have (and have paid for). If I ever start building aerospace/high-performance racing parts, I might look at something else.

    115. Re:Worried? by TheTurtlesMoves · · Score: 1

      Most people just don't understand just how cheap mass production methods are on a per item basis. Combining different process for different parts with "some assembly required", often by machines these days, and I just can't see rapid prototyping catching up anytime in the next few decades.

      --
      The Grey Goo disaster happened 3 billion years ago. This rock is covered in self replicating machines!
    116. Re:Worried? by RespekMyAthorati · · Score: 1
      I don't think home users of 3D fab machines will ever be a major focus of copyright enforcement efforts. But, companies like Shapeways, who do 3D printing to order, will likely come under fire for reproducing objects that are trademarked or copyrighted.

      They are the ones that need to worry.

    117. Re:Worried? by Teancum · · Score: 1

      I have a hard time seeing how Makerbot is able to put their device together for a price point cheaper than Fab@Home, but perhaps they got the supply chain necessary to put that together and have been able to simplify the design yet another order of magnitude.

      Yeah, after I posted that comment I saw something about Makerbot and it looks real interesting. A cheap 3D printer, even if it is the equivalent of dot matrix printer from a couple of decades ago.

      I remember the Sinclair Z-80, which was the first really cheap computer to hit the market (sub $100 at the time). It wasn't that fancy of a computer and was incredibly difficult to get everything to work right, but it did work and was one of the first computers that somebody in a 3rd world country could afford to buy brand new. Now that is some market there. When I lived in Sao Paulo, Brazil, I noticed more than a few of those computers in the slum areas by some dedicated geeks with almost no money.

      One company that I know of that is doing some really cool stuff out of printed 3D parts is Unreasonable Rocket. Paul Breed and his company were competitors for the Northrup-Grumman Lunar Lander Challenge and have been building some really cool rockets that can get to the upper atmosphere (not quite orbit yet, but they are trying). He mentioned in this particular blog entry how the price on printing parts is dropping fast, and it has reached the point that he can take a CAD drawing, ship that drawing to the machinist and they'll make the part with a 3D printer with a pretty wide variety of materials, including some metal castings. Essentially, it is now cheaper to order the printed part than it is for him to pay somebody to machine the part with more traditional machining tools out of a raw block of material.

      That is a huge deal. I wonder how many other companies are doing something like this? That, to me, sounds like a significant tipping point has been reached even for the higher end printers.

    118. Re:Worried? by Teancum · · Score: 1

      I didn't get the link into the above story... oops:

      http://unreasonablerocket.blogspot.com/2010/09/more-printed-motor-news.html

    119. Re:Worried? by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

      Yeah, after I posted that comment I saw something about Makerbot and it looks real interesting. A cheap 3D printer, even if it is the equivalent of dot matrix printer from a couple of decades ago.

      Literally - we were having trouble with the belt tension on the unit I saw, and after we get it right I pointed out to folks that it was Epson FX-80 tight.

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    120. Re:Worried? by bar-agent · · Score: 1

      We are a long, long way from discovering an economic system which could handle some kind of replicator. We have not figured out how to manage an economy where two countries have vastly different views on human rights, pollution and such as well has having widely disparate wages.

      Long before we can handle unlimited production of goods at low cost we need to figure out how we are going to deal with a non-working population because most of the people in such an environment aren't going to be working. Is it the responsibility of the working citizens to support (and entertain) the non-working ones? Or do we push real hard on some real Darwinism and Malthusian ethics and cut the population enough such that there simply aren't any people sitting around idle?

      Science fiction authors have been pondering these questions for a long time, and have come up with many systems to do just this. Off the top of my head, we have the purple wage from Brin's Kiln People and the calorie system from Williams' The Green Leopard Plague.

      --
      i'd hit it so hard, if you pulled me out you'd be the king of britain [bash.org]
    121. Re:Worried? by cynyr · · Score: 1

      Shining lights? you seem to be a bit out of date on 3d printer tech. the good ones these days can print in multiple materials and can even do circuit traces within the printed item. You can print a toy car today, and 95% of a cassette tape(everything but the ribbon). most of a computer mouse could be printed, not the electronic components, but the case, the board and traces.

      Give it a few more years, it will get there.

      --
      All of the above was encrypted with a Quad ROT-13 method. Unauthorized decryption is in violation of the DMCA.
    122. Re:Worried? by cynyr · · Score: 1

      True, but if i can make your widget at home for $0.15, why pay you $5 for it at the store? especially when I could just to to "things.thepiratebay.org" and download a file to make just about any common part. Laser 3d scanning is doable at home today with a prisim, a laser pointer, a video camera, a spinning plate, a spinning plate and a servo+controller.

      --
      All of the above was encrypted with a Quad ROT-13 method. Unauthorized decryption is in violation of the DMCA.
    123. Re:Worried? by cynyr · · Score: 1

      man you people are fancy.... We used buttons(like clothes ones), coins, cheerios, a grid printed on size C paper and laminated, with dry erase markers, and we liked it.

      "The blue button with 5 holes appears to be a lizard man holding a javelin. He looks unhappy with your presence here. he's about 20 feet away. What do you do?" was fairly common.

      --
      All of the above was encrypted with a Quad ROT-13 method. Unauthorized decryption is in violation of the DMCA.
    124. Re:Worried? by cynyr · · Score: 1

      Mission critical will always ave spares. A normal sized wrench like the author mentioned will take hours to print. You would probably have enough time in that case for you to get a currier to bring you the real replacement part. If the part is load bearing, the current plastic rapid prototypers just won't cut it.

      --
      All of the above was encrypted with a Quad ROT-13 method. Unauthorized decryption is in violation of the DMCA.
    125. Re:Worried? by djdanlib · · Score: 1

      The colored Munchkins do have their advantages when you are the DM, I won't lie. I can just remember that the Green one has 45 HP and is 2nd in initiative order, etc. My issue is that my players are referring to them as "green here" and "blue there" instead of "the green lizardman" or "the blue skeleton" :( All of the imagination is lost.. I feel like we're playing a metagame and the only important thing is the numbers.

  2. Pretty pathetic by Chrisq · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Pretty pathetic. Why not sue the makers of lathes and hand tools - people might make patented things with them too.

    1. Re:Pretty pathetic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It's just another power grab. The point of the patent system (before it was subverted!) was to get ideas out in to the wild. Rather than keep secret how to make something, the idea was to give the inventor protected status for making AND selling the object; the right of the private citizen to make the thing and NOT sell it is also included. That's the quid pro quo : the public learns of innovations faster, the private seller gets protection. But like many things in the legal realm, people only pick the parts they like. The obvious question in an open source world is whether the private citizen can give away rather than sell a patented "something" thereby under-cutting the whole market. Bahhh doesn't matter, software should be under copyright not patent anyway.

    2. Re:Pretty pathetic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If they were invented now, they would.

    3. Re:Pretty pathetic by gandhi_2 · · Score: 4, Funny

      The only legitimate use of the chisel is to infringe on intellectual property!

      That is why, even today, Canada levies a 10 cent "piracy tax" on stone plates.

    4. Re:Pretty pathetic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Pretty pathetic. Why not sue the makers of lathes and hand tools - people might make patented things with them too.

      Right. Because a tool requiring skill and training is clearly the best comparison to a mass-production device for producing goods in a consumer's home on the cheap.

      You might as well say, "Pretty pathetic. Why not sue the fat cats that build their own factories to make copies of stuff?" oh wait, they would want to do that if they could, too!

      I'm not saying you don't have a point or that I don't agree. You're engaging in unhelpful fallacy which creates UD even if you don't scare anybody.

    5. Re:Pretty pathetic by Sockatume · · Score: 1

      Patents were good for the private sector competitors, too, in that within X years they could start doing their own version as the patent expired. It meant that breakthroughs were disseminated through the market, instead of being sat on as trade secrets.

      --
      No kidding!!! What do you say at this point?
    6. Re:Pretty pathetic by HungryHobo · · Score: 1

      Of course now the breakthroughs aren't actually explained in the patents and are merely vaguely and broadly described in a general sense in the patent because if there is any requirement that the patent actually give enough information to build the invention it apparently isn't enforced.

      So they get protection without actually giving away any meaningful information.

    7. Re:Pretty pathetic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      because now it takes no skill at all to print out a ming vase, you just need the tool.

    8. Re:Pretty pathetic by Tablizer · · Score: 0, Redundant

      That is why, even today, Canada levies a 10 cent "piracy tax" on stone plates.

      Isn't that called the Moses Tax?

    9. Re:Pretty pathetic by Sockatume · · Score: 1

      Right, they've gamed the system to the point where the trade-offs they were supposed to make haven't happened. There's supposed to be a public benefit paid back if you want the personal benefit of the patent. Now it's become a zero-sum game.

      --
      No kidding!!! What do you say at this point?
    10. Re:Pretty pathetic by LordNimon · · Score: 1

      Considering how these machines cost $1,000, and that's only for the lowest end model, I don't know if I'd say they are "cheap". Even if the price drops to $200, that's still orders of magnitude more expensive than the official, mass-produced versions of those objects. It's going to be a very long time before these things are a threat to any patent-holders.

      --
      And the men who hold high places must be the ones who start
      To mold a new reality... closer to the heart
    11. Re:Pretty pathetic by jvkjvk · · Score: 1

      Actually this has been done already.

      There is a jig-maker jig that allows you to make a variety of jigs. With it, you can create the tools (jigs) necessary to create other stuff. The company that sells it has sued to stop people from using it to make copies of the meta-jig.

      Regards.

    12. Re:Pretty pathetic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That would be wrong. The patent was created as a weapon against the guild. Guilds maintained secrets, and those could be lost. The patent was granted so the secret would be shared, and not lost.

      But... the patent protection is absolute. You can infringe by simply building, without ever having an intention to sell.

    13. Re:Pretty pathetic by FragHARD · · Score: 1

      Hey don't give em' any ideas....When I make something it is usually better than the original anyways ;-)

      --
      FragHARD or don't frag at all
  3. It won't end there by Drakkenmensch · · Score: 3, Funny

    Expect cardboard, glue and scissors to become "illegal patent infringement tools" soon, as well as pen and paper to be outlawed as "instruments of the law-breaking paragraph men."

    1. Re:It won't end there by captainpanic · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Manufacturers of stoves, ovens and all other kitchen equipment were sued by McDonalds for enabling people to make a hamburger at home.

    2. Re:It won't end there by poetmatt · · Score: 1

      please. you're thinking too detailed. It's thinking that is to be patented, and you owe me money for thinking, even if it's subconscious.

    3. Re:It won't end there by Barryke · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      Somehow this implies McDonalds has a kitchen and i don't like it. Its more like a plastic mold factory. I'm actually upset they call this meat.

      --
      Hivemind harvest in progress..
    4. Re:It won't end there by Drakkenmensch · · Score: 1

      Somehow this implies McDonalds has a kitchen and i don't like it. Its more like a plastic mold factory. I'm actually upset they call this meat.

      http://www.channel4.com/food/images/mb/Channel4/4Food/features/2009/september/37/kids_food_toys/playdoh_kitchen_gallery--gt_full_width_landscape.jpg

    5. Re:It won't end there by Teancum · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      {{citation needed}}

      I call BS on this.

    6. Re:It won't end there by Tablizer · · Score: 1

      Expect cardboard, glue and scissors to become "illegal patent infringement tools" soon, as well as pen and paper to be outlawed as "instruments of the law-breaking paragraph men."

      2020 kids:

      "Paper wraps rock!"

      "Scissors beats paper!"

      "Lawsuit beats scissors!"
         

    7. Re:It won't end there by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      {{citation needed}}

      This not Wikipedia, wiki markup doesn't work here. But, if you insist, here is your citation.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    8. Re:It won't end there by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easy_Edges

      I bet it's patented, too.

    9. Re:It won't end there by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Haven't heard that one... I have heard about the people who delivered ICE to homes and threw a fit when the refrigerator was sold.

      I believe milk delivery was also pissed at markets who could sell milk a mile from someone's home without a delivery fee.

      Dead business models are dead. The fuss is just the sound of it dying.

    10. Re:It won't end there by Drakkenmensch · · Score: 1

      Lawsuit beats face! *punches*

    11. Re:It won't end there by Teancum · · Score: 1

      This said, moding up a factual seeming statement as "Insightful", not just once but twice, certainly seems to pull it out of the joke category.

      If you want to make it a joke, you can do it in a way where it is obviously a joke too.

      No, don't do your stupid "whoosh" impression here either. I just don't see how this comment is so insightful other than a political jab at "big business" which essentially turns the moderation into (+1, Liberal POV).

      I'm also willing to realize that stupid things do happen and there is a remote possibility that this may be something to it as well. With the litigious nature of American lawyers, I can believe almost anything as the subject of a lawsuit, and to even have the plaintiffs win. I'm presuming that was in part the reference to this statement as well.

    12. Re:It won't end there by WCLPeter · · Score: 1

      "Lawsuit beats scissors!"

      "Spock beats Lawsuit!"

  4. Okay... by Kokuyo · · Score: 3, Funny

    This is surprising how?

    Of course manufacturers and IP-holders will not be amused when you can suddenly make your own product or part that you'd otherwise have to buy for lots of cash.

    They'll win that battle just as easily and decisively as the content industry has won its battle against filesharing and copying... Oh, wait.

    1. Re:Okay... by migla · · Score: 5, Informative

      Yeah.

      Now, I don't remember if bringing up Cory Doctorow is a good or bad idea, but he's written the short "Printcrime" that would be relevant to this topic:

      http://craphound.com/?p=573

      --
      Some of my favourite people are from th US; Vonnegut, Chomsky, Bill Hicks.
    2. Re:Okay... by PopeRatzo · · Score: 2, Interesting

      They'll win that battle just as easily and decisively

      I realize you're joking, but I think it's just as likely that 3D printing becomes the death of entire categories of patents.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    3. Re:Okay... by brohmes · · Score: 3, Interesting

      He also wrote the 2009 novel Makers which is pretty much exactly how this story looks to play out. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Makers_(Cory_Doctorow_novel)

    4. Re:Okay... by tyroneking · · Score: 1

      I think it is high time that Cory was referenced with the phrase normally reserved for XKCD ...

      ''Obligatory Doctorow story...'''

    5. Re:Okay... by sorak · · Score: 1

      But that is a good precedent. If VCRs are legal, then why not 3D printers? In fact 3D printers probably have a stronger case because their non-infringing use seems more likely to occur and less likely to be abused.

    6. Re:Okay... by Nazlfrag · · Score: 1

      Really? Can you name a single one? It's like saying modelling clay or a lathe is the death of patents, I'm just not seeing it.

    7. Re:Okay... by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      You're thinking too small, nazlfrag. 3D printing is on a path toward perfect replication of physical objects. When that happens, all bets are off for patents.

      Yes, they'll try to put safeguards to prevent the "replicators" of the future from copying, say, the 2050 version of the iPhone, but yes, hackers will figure out a way around those safeguards. Now, do you think the 2050 version of Apple will try to prevent people from making their own iPhones? Will they succeed? Will they go after the maker of the replicators or the people at home building their "makeshift" iPhones?

      The first part of intellectual property to fold will be the part where they try to keep consumers from making copies of stuff they buy. Then, maybe they'll focus on enforcing intellectual property laws against people making a profit from infringement, which is what they should be doing now.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    8. Re:Okay... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Great little story there!

    9. Re:Okay... by Nazlfrag · · Score: 1

      There's nothing much stopping say a Chinese firm reverse engineering the current iPhone and replicating it using existing technology. In fact there's never been much of anything stopping individuals from recreating any patent, that is one of the intentions of patents after all. Thinking this would be the death of patents is like saying downloads are the death of copyright. Sure, the technology disrupts things but the legal system always finds a way to screw us over.

      What's stopping someone from pirating the iPhone in 2050? How's $1 million in fines per infringing copy sound? I'm sure the legal minds will think of something.

      I admire that you think we'll escape the IP trap so easily, as if technology were the only obstacle. Perhaps it's you thinking too small though, if we have replicators that can replicate an iPhone we should be also able make a replicator, and pretty much anything else to boot. We would be transitioning to a post-scarcity society. Would IP matter in such a world?

    10. Re:Okay... by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      What's stopping someone from pirating the iPhone in 2050? How's $1 million in fines per infringing copy sound? I'm sure the legal minds will think of something.

      First, let me say that when you start talking about 3D printers and replicator technology, the distinction between patent and copyright starts to get very fuzzy. So let's put aside for a moment the copyright vs patent discussion. IP is IP.

      The first hackers who get their hands on replicator technology may not have $1000000. You can make the hugest fines imaginable, make the fines a trillion dollars, but if there's nothing to collect, it's not much of a deterrent. Look at some of the huge fines the RIAA has been getting against grandmas. It hasn't really stopped the sharing of music, has it? Because if you're some poor kid in third world America, you don't really care if someone slaps a million dollar lawsuit on you because you just don't believe it (and quite rightly).

      We're just now starting to see IP "theft" becoming widespread in economically disadvantaged communities. Until we have debtors' prisons again (which might happen if the GOP gain power) I just don't think fines are going to solve the problem of filesharing. And at some point, the information it would take to replicate an "iPhone" will come down to a digital file. And while it may come to locking people up for ripping a CD and sharing it with a friend, or downloading the new Weezer album from TPB, I'm counting on being well done with this world by the time that happens.

      Either way, I expect that in the life of my (someday) grandchildren, there will be much suffering caused in order to enforce imaginary property. It's causing a little suffering now, if you happen to be the grandma with the big RIAA fine, but I'm talking about suffering on a much bigger scale, courtesy of corporate power. Yeah, I'm pessimistic about how corporations replacing governments is going to work out. So far, it's not going so well for a lot of people.

      Today, I read some interesting statistics about the US economy. The top 20 percent of the population own 85 percent of the wealth. That's not the worst part though. The bottom 40 percent of the US population either own zero percent of the wealth, or are actually in negative territory, where they go deeper in debt just to live day to day. Forty goddamn percent either own nothing or less than zero. Supply-side economics has failed beyond belief. The people at the top are consolidating power and squeezing wealth out of the bottom half. Ugly stuff coming down the road.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
  5. Progress threatens patents... by Vernes · · Score: 2, Insightful

    ...like it did with religion during the dark ages. Thank Odin you don't get burned alive these days, just sued into bankruptcy. Perhaps we should stop this whole technology thing. Or better yet, innovation in its whole. Or jail smart people. Prohibit brains? There must be a way to stop this copying!

    1. Re:Progress threatens patents... by Drakkenmensch · · Score: 1

      Thank Odin you don't get burned alive these days, just sued into bankruptcy.

      That's only because the RIAA haven't had its way with the legal system as far as they'd like it to go, of course. They're keeping something special in reserve for those regular folks who can't afford to pay 7-digit settlements...

  6. Tuff. by ickleberry · · Score: 1, Interesting

    I can imagine in a few years 3D printers will be capable of printing perfectly good weapons.

    No doubt governments will try to force the printers to incorporate some sort of DRM that will make them refuse to print out a gun, and this will fail just like every other initiative that involves making equipment refuse to do what it's owner wants to use it for.

    1. Re:Tuff. by Chrisq · · Score: 1

      I can imagine in a few years 3D printers will be capable of printing perfectly good weapons. No doubt governments will try to force the printers to incorporate some sort of DRM that will make them refuse to print out a gun, and this will fail just like every other initiative that involves making equipment refuse to do what it's owner wants to use it for.

      Daggers, knives, etc. Yes. Guns would at very least need a number of parts to be made then assembled. Also the ammunition could not be printable, as it would need explosives. Unless there is some drastic improvement in the types of materials that can be printed I would think that it would require a special low charge bullet, and be a single-shot throw-away device.

    2. Re:Tuff. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I can imagine in a few years 3D printers will be capable of printing perfectly good weapons.

      I can do that on my 2D printer already. Though, they don't seem to work :|.

    3. Re:Tuff. by TDyl · · Score: 1

      Such as the weapon used by Malkovich in "In The Line Of Fire"

      --
      Todd: I hope it proves as delicious as the farmers that grew them
    4. Re:Tuff. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bah, let them try!
      They won't be able to prevent an infinitely high number of operations that eventually lead to a projectile being launched in some new, hilarious way.

      Also, see eXistenZ Restaurant scene where he makes a gun from bone.

    5. Re:Tuff. by arivanov · · Score: 2, Informative

      You can make a single shot throw away device (and a pretty powerful one) out of plumbing supplies available from B&Q, Praktiker or any other DIY shop in about 10 minutes. Even easier if you live on the continent and have access to stainless steel pipes. Why bother with printing even if the printer could produce a functional one?

      Same goes for prohibiting printing on these grounds. What's next? Making plumbing a licensed profession which requires a a security clearance and supplies being available only from a licensed shop?

      --
      Baker's Law: Misery no longer loves company. Nowadays it insists on it
      http://www.sigsegv.cx/
    6. Re:Tuff. by newcastlejon · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I think it will be more than a few years. RP as it is now is pretty much limited to low melting point plastics and some niche applications with metals/ceramics where you have to machine the finished parts afterwards: basically the surface finish is terrible and the precision is middling.

      If you're talking about edged weapons then it's far easier to just make them by hand. If you mean guns, lots of guns, you'll probably need a CNC milling machine. The trouble is if you can afford one of those you can a) just use it to machine the parts from blanks, or b) just use the big wad of cash you have to go and buy a gun on the black market - assuming you can't buy one legally.

      As for your point on DRM I agree: even if people are incapable of designing the simplest of guns (probably generally true), someone may release a design without DRM just for lulz or simply strip the DRM from an existing design for even more lulz.

      To throw in my two penneth, 3D scanners go hand-in-hand with RP machines (they're a lot better though) and unlike copying a bank note there would be nothing to stop one filing off any marks that would prevent digitising. Given an adequate 3D printer, a decent 3D scanner and a gun you could probably roll off as many as you want, assuming no-one came knocking to ask what you needed all those bags of metal powder for.

      As an aside, when I looked at RP machines I realised that precision would improve with time as a matter of course, I was more interested in finding a machine that didn't require proprietary feedstock. That and being able to get around the problem of casting ceramics - I was quite enamoured of the Toyota(?) adiabatic-ish diesel engine at the time.

      --
      If God forks the Universe every time you roll a die, he'd better have a damned good memory.
    7. Re:Tuff. by EdZ · · Score: 2, Informative

      Maybe not additive 3D printers (FMD, SLS and the like*), but a CNC converted mini-mill can already easily make most of the parts needed for a pretty advanced firearm, and the few parts it can't (e.g. springs, rifled barrel) can either be bought as generic parts or created by simple hand-tooling. This has been the case with hand-operated mills for a good few decades, so the ability to create a gun from raw materials in your own home is nothing new.

      * Though you could use these to form wax parts for rough casting in order to cut down on milling time.

    8. Re:Tuff. by sukotto · · Score: 1

      There are cases of government initiatives working really well though. Take, for example, the anti-currency DRM they have installed in every (?) consumer-grade printing device.

      When it *really* matters to them, the government can be highly effective.

      --
      Come play free flash games on Kongregate!
    9. Re:Tuff. by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 2, Informative

      What's next? Making plumbing a licensed profession which requires a a security clearance and supplies being available only from a licensed shop?

      Don't give them any ideas. They just did a bunch of full scale SWAT style raids on barbershops in Florida (I believe the count was 19) where they handcuffed the barbers while they searched the premises for violations of the barber license and for illegal items (drugs, weapons, etc). All without a warrant, since a barbershop is subject to such searches by the Department of Licenses (who just happened to bring along local cops and the DEA). It was a great success, they found three instances of mimor amounts of illegal drugs and arrested several barbers for license violations (unlicensed barber, expired license, and other violations of that sort).

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    10. Re:Tuff. by Teancum · · Score: 2, Interesting

      All this implies is that there is still going to be a need for a good mechanic and the need perhaps for resources outside of the realm of what can be directly made by a 3D printer.

      There was a toy manufacturer in America (back when such things still were made in America) who made a nearly perfect replica of a Colt .45 handgun out of plastic, complete with plastic bullets. They made hundreds of thousands of these things, and kids who were hooked on Cowboy movies & television shows during the era bought them up and acted like some super-charged John Wayne, sort of like you see in the movie Toy Story.

      Anyway, some people with less than honorable intentions discovered that bullets for a real Colt .45 would fit into the chambers of this gun, and the firing mechanism (hammer & trigger) would even work to make it a real gun. It had numerous problems if you wanted to use it for target practice, and there was a tendency for the gun to even blow up in your hand (sending you to the hospital) if you fired the gun, but about 8 times out of 10 times the bullet would leave the gun just like the real thing. It was "good enough" that it was used in a number of bank robberies, and ended up killing a couple of security guards.

      If you want to know where the regulations on toy guns come from, it was this incident that started the whole thing. I think something from a 3D printer could easily reproduce this particular toy gun, and getting ammunition for guns isn't all that particularly hard. You could even print out the bullets too, where the trick would be to create the primer & gunpowder with home-made recipes. Obtaining the raw ingredients: sulfer, carbon, and potassium nitrate; aren't all that hard to find, and one of the early sources of KNO3 was manure. In other words, anybody who builds an out-house and has access to some wood could also make a bomb. For awhile in London during the 19th Century, people were actually paid to have their septic system cleaned out for nitrate production, or at least not charged for the service.

      I agree it would be a complex process and take somebody with some real initiative, but a basic knowledge of chemistry is all it would really take if you cared. Many 3D printers are also capable of producing metal parts too, or you could print out a machine lathe and some other machining tools to make the stuff if you were so inclined. It isn't that complicated, and what it would take to stop this is to simply outlaw the ability to be human. Somehow I think that violates some civil rights and some other basic principles there too.

    11. Re:Tuff. by countertrolling · · Score: 1

      ...low melting point plastics...

      Perfect... Print out an electrical circuit that will go into overload, and melt or burn said lump of plastic and fill the room with noxious fumes if the cops knock the door down.. Make sure you print a gas mask first.

      --
      For justice, we must go to Don Corleone
    12. Re:Tuff. by WillAdams · · Score: 1

      Take a look at Haiti to see how efforts to control plumbing fittings so as to prevent their usage to make improvised firearms works out.

      William

      --
      Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
    13. Re:Tuff. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The only thing more stupid than committing a crime with a licensed gun would be committing it with a home-made gun.

      The detectives would ask around all the local 3D printer dealers and your name would come up sooner or later. Next stop, your house.

    14. Re:Tuff. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You call full-scale SWAT style raids of barbershops a success? What's next, making lamp shades with their skin?

    15. Re:Tuff. by venril · · Score: 1

      There are cases of government initiatives working really well though. Take, for example, the anti-currency DRM they have installed in every (?) consumer-grade printing device.

      When it *really* matters to them, the government can be highly effective.

      Or the dot patterns laid down by color printers as a watermark...

      Our typewriters are already registered?

    16. Re:Tuff. by nospam007 · · Score: 1

      "You can make a single shot throw away device (and a pretty powerful one) out of plumbing supplies "

      A friend of mine made a .22 single shot nylon pistol with only a spring and the firing pin out of metal.

    17. Re:Tuff. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Addressed in Gilliams' "Brazil"?

    18. Re:Tuff. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sarcasm-detection fail.

    19. Re:Tuff. by delinear · · Score: 1

      You've clearly never suffered the agony of a paper cut.

    20. Re:Tuff. by delinear · · Score: 1

      Of course, if you cared about being hard to trace, it might be easier to steal a 3D printer and go unnoticed than it would be to steal a gun and go unnoticed.

    21. Re:Tuff. by u17 · · Score: 1

      Hey, is your name Sweeney Todd? I, for one, welcome the protection of our dear government from rogue barbers. Do not underestimate them, the next time you are sitting in a barber shop, the barber not hesitate to slit your throat and turn you into McDonalds burgers. Who, if not the government, will provide us with this much needed security?

    22. Re:Tuff. by DarkAce911 · · Score: 1

      there are several people out there selling 80% receivers for AR-15, AK-47 and various pistols made out of a single block of steel or aluminum on a CNC mill. All you have to do is the final assembly and drill some holes. The CAD files are floating out there too.

    23. Re:Tuff. by budgenator · · Score: 1

      I'm going to have to say "citation needed" here, it would seem to me that the chamber pressure generated by a .45 round would far exceed the ability of a plastic toy gun to withstand. Even loading the bullets with black-powder instead of modern smokeless power would be stretching it considerably. If somebody made one purposely, using fiberglass/kevlar/carbon-fiber reinforced plastic I might buy it, but not a toy.

      --
      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
    24. Re:Tuff. by Teancum · · Score: 1

      I wish I could provide a more "free" source, but at least one citation I found here that talks about a couple of different toy guns that were modified in the 1960's:

      http://www.jstor.org/pss/1142105

      This is even a refereed journal and a formal publication on the topic. There are also some informal publication about this issue, including some documentaries about the topic.

      An interesting TV commercial that shows one of these toy guns in action can be found here:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hR9ojNddiSI

      It is a fun commercial to watch just for the nostalgia, and it even shows how kids "reload" the gun and make it fire. Apparently some rubber bands and other very minor (and inexpensive) modifications were done to the gun to make it work with real bullets instead (to make the hammer hit the bullet primer harder).

      I'm not saying that it is perfect, and I sure as heck would never actually use the gun in this manner as more than a few would-be bank robbers did have the gun misfire and basically do self-inflicted harm. You are correct that the gun wasn't really designed to take this damage, and it was a danger to somebody who tried. I think it was made out of stamped steel, so there may have been a little more structural strength with this toy than a more "modern" plastic gun.

      If you are trying to use it for something more serious as a real gun with some safety margin to keep it from removing digits on your hand, I would recommend some kevlar/carbon-fiber type of reinforcing too. The point here is that the gun was used in this manner, not that it was a particularly good application of the technology.

      As the article cited briefly mentions, it was a .22 round that went into the chamber, even though the gun itself was modeled after a Colt .45 gun. My bad on that one, but I was going only on memory on that point. I could dig further as I think Mattel did end up settling on a wrongful death lawsuit, which is one of the reasons they no longer make the toy together with legislation that requires toys to literally be incapable of being able to do this as well.

    25. Re:Tuff. by budgenator · · Score: 1

      I had forgotten about those, they were the ones I wasn't allowed to have. I was thinking of the plastic guns that used the plastic caps on a ring, which will actually fit on a number 11 cap nipple and ignite the charge on my 0.36 caliber M1861 Naval Ball and Cap revolver

      --
      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
  7. What a thing to worry about by BadAnalogyGuy · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Just as designs are copyrighted now, the designs to create product knock offs with your replicator will also be subject to those same rules. Owning a replicator and building stuff for yourself won't be a problem, but if you upload a design that is essentially a copy of a product, you will get in trouble. Likewise, if you start replicating such goods and distributing them, you will be in trouble.

    There really isn't anything new here. The best analogy isn't books or music, but rather stained glass lamps. Artists who design such lampshades guard the IP very aggressively. They prosecute frequently when someone is creating knockoffs. They hand number each sold design to reduce copying. And they add customer-specific details that make it easy to track down leaked designs.

    Same thing can be expected with these replicators.

    1. Re:What a thing to worry about by tverbeek · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It's just like the printing press or the tape recorder or the photocopier or the CD burner. Another replication device, another panic about how it will be used.

      --
      http://alternatives.rzero.com/
    2. Re:What a thing to worry about by TapeCutter · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yes those panics were silly, but a Star Trek style replicator would create a gigantic social upheaval, physical tokens of value such as gold and cash would be essentially worthless. The only things left to trade would be time and talent. Now that I think about it, the "gigantic social upheaval" might be a GoodThing(TM)...

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    3. Re:What a thing to worry about by Shark · · Score: 1

      It'd be wonderful but you'd likely need some sort of extremely cheap energy for this paradigm to work well.

      --
      Mind the frickin' laser...
    4. Re:What a thing to worry about by tinkerghost · · Score: 1

      It'd be wonderful but you'd likely need some sort of extremely cheap energy for this paradigm to work well.

      Not huge amounts. Your input is still raw matter pushed through the replicator. Just like the transporter - matter goes in one side & the same mass come out the other side. The only difference is that you use a static template to handle the energy->matter reconstruction instead of a live scan.

      OK that was more than geeky enough for 1 day.

    5. Re:What a thing to worry about by tverbeek · · Score: 1

      Actually I don't believe the panics were silly. We just look back at them that way because we've made it through the other side.

      --
      http://alternatives.rzero.com/
    6. Re:What a thing to worry about by Teancum · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Unfortunately that has little to do with real teleportation. The teleportation currently being done is reproducing the exact quantum state of something else and moving essentially a perfect copy including the quantum entanglement properties of all of its components to another location. This is being done today about one atom at a time, and I'm not really sure how complex it has been able to get, but a water molecule is about the best you can hope for if you are real lucky. Perhaps that will improve over time.

      Perhaps, and this is just a maybe, there will be a time in the very distant future where the ability to manipulate individual atoms to build something macroscopic one atom at a time will happen. That still isn't a teleporter, but it is a sort of thing that you saw out of Star Trek. None the less, I don't think it will ever be something that you plug into your 110 V, 30 amp wall socket to turn on in your kitchen. It would take a fair bit more energy than that.

    7. Re:What a thing to worry about by smellsofbikes · · Score: 4, Informative

      Yes those panics were silly, but a Star Trek style replicator would create a gigantic social upheaval, physical tokens of value such as gold and cash would be essentially worthless. The only things left to trade would be time and talent. Now that I think about it, the "gigantic social upheaval" might be a GoodThing(TM)...

      If you feel like reading some cool old science fiction, the George O. Smith collection "Venus Equilateral" has a series of stories about exactly this: the hero manages to make (by mistake, as it happens, because they're busy trying to solve a related problem) a matter duplicator that can flawlessly reproduce masterpieces of art, food, whatever, and society pretty much collapses as everyone has to figure out how to become service industry personnel just so they have something to do. There's a resolution of sorts when the engineers who built the machine come up with a way to make things somewhat like batteries, that are in an energetically non-equilibrium state that the matter duplicator, being purely matter-centric, can't duplicate, and using that as money to get a trade system going again, but there's still a huge change in how society is run.

      Neal Stephenson also dealt with this somewhat in "Diamond Age" but swept a lot of it under the carpet by essentially saying that you got charged money for building stuff with your matter compiler and somehow there was a verifiable difference between original items and duplicated ones, so maybe he was positing matter compilers that print flawed, detectable copies much like current laser printers add yellow dots to their printouts making them traceable. Since it seems to be working pretty well for laser printers, it's likely something similar would happen with fabricators if/when we get to the point they can print usable mechanical stuff.

      --
      Nostalgia's not what it used to be.
    8. Re:What a thing to worry about by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Computer: battery, charged.

      And yes, I am joking.

    9. Re:What a thing to worry about by Sigspat · · Score: 1

      Not necessarily just time and talent, I think this would result in the currency used in the amazing game Alpha Centauri: energy. Energy would become the de facto currency, as it would be useful to basically create and run everything, and it's not exactly something you can throw into such a replicator and create a copy of.

    10. Re:What a thing to worry about by delinear · · Score: 1

      Maybe silly is the wrong word, but seriously, one method of doing something ends or is replaced by another method of doing something - this has been going on since man started using tools. It's natural for the people used to the old way to fight the change, but look around you and think how far we've come from using rocks to make capturing our food easier and ask yourself how successful man has ever been at fighting change. It reminds me of a Mitchell and Webb sketch about stone-age flint chippers discarding the new trend of bronze tools as a "fad". When a technology's time has come, there's little point fighting it, and if it means your old business model is now obsolete the sensible approach is to change your model.

    11. Re:What a thing to worry about by jvkjvk · · Score: 2, Insightful

      What I think is sad is that many people obviously believe in the necessity of scarcity.

      That's no way to head towards the future, IMO.

      We are currently caught up in the illusion that the only way forward is through scarcity. That if something becomes "magically" free of this burden we still MUST impose this viewpoint, artifically if necessary -- even if it kills people (see the pharma mass murders from patented drugs as an example). This is just the latest example of that outdated mindset.

      The fact is that the mindset of scarcity itself creates scarcity, even where none is necessary. It is a perfect self-replicating state.

      Of course, the main reason this mindset is propagated is to control the populace.

      After all, if there were no scarcity what would these people do? How could they control others? What would be the incentive for other people to follow them if not fear, the carrot and stick? How would they be able to feel themselves 'better' than others if not by material resources?

      It is time for the populace to wake up and realize that artificial barriers to bounty hurt the majority much more than the barriers help the majority. They need to realize that the benefits derived by the barriers accrue in large parts to people who believe in and want to continue this model. They need to realize that changing their paradigm to one of abundance obviates the need for such barriers and the controllers who propagate them.

      Only by doing so will we be able to stop ourselves from creating such lurid scenes as mass deaths through lack of IP licensing in the future. Only by doing so will technology be allowed to progress to the point where there is abundance.

      Regards.

    12. Re:What a thing to worry about by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Neal Stephenson also dealt with this somewhat in "Diamond Age" but swept a lot of it under the carpet by essentially saying that you got charged money for building stuff with your matter compiler and somehow there was a verifiable difference between original items and duplicated ones, so maybe he was positing matter compilers that print flawed, detectable copies much like current laser printers add yellow dots to their printouts making them traceable [seeingyellow.com].

      Nice coincidence with diamonds.

      Now that there's a (nearly?) perfect process for creating indistinguishable artificial diamonds, the cabal is going nuts, wanting to require detection technology for the new ones. Self interest, pure and simple.

      Ironically, the entire diamond industry is based on ARTIFICIAL scarcity. The last I heard, there were enough "natural" diamonds in existence that every man, woman and child in the US could have a cupful. To listen to the industry, you'd think there were only a couple of bushels on earth.

      If I were getting married today, I'd give the lady her choice of any "moral" stone instead of a diamond.

      Buncha fucking meretricious bastards.

    13. Re:What a thing to worry about by FoolishOwl · · Score: 1

      Now that I think about it, the "gigantic social upheaval" might be a GoodThing(TM)...

      What could possibly be good about eliminating scarcity? Universal prosperity would completely wreck our finely crafted social hierarchy!

    14. Re:What a thing to worry about by canajin56 · · Score: 1

      Well, a StarTrek style replicator would be incredibly dangerous. Replicating a bottle cap involves as much energy as a hydrogen bomb. A fuck-up making Picard's Earl Gray tea would be enough to destroy the planet!

      At any rate, remember that Star Trek's utopia came about after brutal class warfare, where a huge portion of the population was herded at gunpoint into welfare ghettos. Then some social upheaval and revolt that lead to thermonuclear war. With some brutal fiefdoms run by genetically engineered supermen somewhere in there, too. The few million? (or was it hundred-thousand) survivors hiding in the wilderness, or ruled by warlords in brutal enclaves only survived because the arrival of aliens told us we weren't alone, and sparked a grand feeling of human strength and unity. Though, it's highly optimistic in that we just cast off xenophobic aggression, instead of turning it from human "outsiders" to real outsiders.

      Anyways, and I'm stealing this idea wholesale from David Wong, the middle ground between Post scarcity = utopia where everybody gets anything they want for free (star trek, Culture, etc), and Post Scarcity = Brutal Dictatorship where one government uses this replicator/cold fusion/etc technology to rule with a (possibly velvet gloved) iron fist (such as the Sten novels), is the Way of Bullshit. Basically, if you can grow a steak in a vat for 50 cents, and it tastes as good as the finest real steak, then you just sell your free range organic steaks anyway, and people will think they taste better by virtue of their rarity and price. AKA the Audiophile effect, where if you replace a $1 label with a $100 label on a cable, they can all hear the incredible difference. And that's assuming that the vat meat does taste the same. Presumably, it would be a long long time from now before it ever gets up to snuff, so the purists who say real equals better would have a lot of history of being completely right behind them when replicated/vat grown food DOES catch up. And the same sort of thing for non-food, too. My shoes may cost 100x as much, but they are hand-made in China, not replicated like your cheap shit! In case that's not enough, tell people (and this is 100% true) that if they don't buy real, they will hurt the economy and lose their job! See, the free market is a lot more resilient than people think. But the other concerns are still true. If a replicator can make a TV, then all of the electronics makers have a huge vested interest in DRM to prevent replicating unauthorized patterns. And more so than with other DRM, they have a very good case for why. If you're replicating shoes, not much can go wrong. If they have sharp pointy bits or aren't comfortable, no great harm done. A bad TV pattern can mean electrocution or explosion. There's a legitimate concern in allowing replicators to just make any old pattern. So, if corporations have a lot of backing for Music and Movie DRM, they'll have a whole lot more behind Replicator DRM. At least for electronics and other things that can go horribly wrong if the Creative Commons licensed pattern you used is no good. To an extent that can be mitigated by government testing, and having the replicators only make government approved products...which is fine, I'm sure you can get something like the FSF, a collective that gets donations and pays for testing of major "Open Source" patterns. Just so long as those replicator makers, the same ones who don't want you replicating TVs, decide to allow all government approved patterns, rather than just their own ;) They'll have an argument that they don't see why they should be FORCED to allow competition like that, I'm sure.

      Either way, it's not likely to be a sudden thing, but very gradual, as 3D printing and related replicator-like stuff slowly progresses.

      --
      ASCII stupid question, get a stupid ANSI
    15. Re:What a thing to worry about by TapeCutter · · Score: 1

      Thanks for the tip. :)

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    16. Re:What a thing to worry about by TapeCutter · · Score: 1

      Is that the same David Wong that wrote the monkeysphere? - I came across it by accident a few years ago, it's one best essays on human nature that I've ever read.

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    17. Re:What a thing to worry about by smellsofbikes · · Score: 1
      There won't ever be a post-scarcity society. It will just shift from physical items to the energy required to make those physical items. Both Smith and Stephenson deal with this: in Smith's case, the matter duplicators are an outgrowth of research into solar energy concentrators (which for reasons beyond the scope of this discussion result in practically unlimited available energy) and in Stephenson's case, people can build anything they want, but they're charged for the energy they use building it. That's actually a plot point in Diamond Age: the kids use the matter duplicator to build a bunch of toys and clothes they want, and their mom can't pay the energy bill for what they've made, so they're *still* living in a scarcity society.

      I'm going to make an assertion that if we had matter replicators that could make anything, we'd soak up the entire energy output of the sun and still need more energy. (And fairly quickly we'd run into a scarcity-of-raw-materials problem because there's only so much gold, and there are only so many available *atoms*.) Humans, like all other animals, have a track record of using up 100% of the available resources, no matter how much of the resources are available. If we have matter duplicators I expect the same thing will happen.

      I'm not arguing with any of your points, by the way: I entirely agree (although I'd add that people believe in the necessity of scarcity because it's their business plan, and as such they're very willing to restrict freedoms of other people and quash innovation, if it threatens their income.) I'm just saying I think your points don't address the central observable tendency of humans to use 100% of anything they like/want/need and then ask for more yet.

      --
      Nostalgia's not what it used to be.
    18. Re:What a thing to worry about by jvkjvk · · Score: 1

      I'm just saying I think your points don't address the central observable tendency of humans to use 100% of anything they like/want/need and then ask for more yet.

      I think that the root of this behaviour also lies in the concepts of scarcity, funnily enough.

      Do you recall reading any holocaust survivor stories where even decades later it was found that some people still hoarded food in their sock drawers, etc.?

      Scarcity has so permeated our concept of life that with this model, of course enough isn't enough, because you will "lose" in some contest over energy (in the case you are making) eventually. But this points out the fact that the model is still scarcity.

      That is why I called for a needed paradigm shift. Abundance through technological means does not mean that the underlying psychological makeup has changed from a scarcity model, unless one sets about changing it. Anything and everything is a possible psychological state for individuals as well as societies. One can see that observable tendency throughout history. I propose that scarcity is just one such state and should be viewed as a hurdle not a brick wall.

      Nice comment!

      Regards.

  8. Time to print... by bobdotorg · · Score: 2, Funny

    ... some patent lawyers.

    --
    __ Someday, but not this morning, I'll finally learn to use the preview button.
    1. Re:Time to print... by Swanktastic · · Score: 1

      I'm more worried about the idiots who are tinkering with the future of humanity by posting 3D printer schematics online.

    2. Re:Time to print... by Teancum · · Score: 1

      I'm more worried about the idiots who are tinkering with the future of humanity by posting 3D printer schematics online.

      Too late, it is already being done.

      I suppose you are concerned about people making artificial life as well? In other words somebody using just chemistry to create a completely artificial life form that can reproduce itself with no outside DNA or any previous life form being needed. Guess what... it is already being done too.

      So how do you close Pandora's box again?

    3. Re:Time to print... by bobdotorg · · Score: 1

      So how do you close Pandora's box again?

      Patent lawyers?

      --
      __ Someday, but not this morning, I'll finally learn to use the preview button.
  9. This... by _0rm_ · · Score: 1

    It boggles my mind the lows the corporate entities will stoop to keep alive the consumerist mindset that has gripped the American economy.

    Protip to any and all patent holders considering this: The free market made you rich as fuck, and that same free market can destroy you if you refuse to adapt. Who was it who said "The wise man adapts to the world, the fool attempts to adapt the world to himself. In the end, the fool wins."?

    --
    Boredom is bliss.
    1. Re:This... by ghmh · · Score: 2, Informative

      I think it's this you were after:

      The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man. - George Bernard Shaw

      But then I've seen other variants even attributed to other people, so who knows...

    2. Re:This... by John+Hasler · · Score: 1

      It boggles my mind the lows the corporate entities will stoop to keep alive the consumerist mindset that has gripped the American economy.

      Please point out some the things that the "corporate entities" have actually done against 3d printers.

      --
      Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
    3. Re:This... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Protip to any and all patent holders considering this: The free market made you rich as fuck

      No it didn't. Patent monopoly grants are intended to prevent free market effects causing things to be sold at their economically expected price. What makes patent holders rich as fuck is the avoidance of the free market, by regulatory capture.

      Patents being granted? Not a free market.

  10. Mafiaa all over again! by lkcl · · Score: 5, Insightful

    has anyone noticed that:

    * the Mafiaa is after file indexing sites, because the index allows people to "break the law"

    * now 3D printers are being classified as "law-breaking" tools.

    * nobody goes after weapons manufacturers and suppliers to prevent and prohibit weapons manufacturers and suppliers from putting the means to kill people into the hands of "irresponsible" people.

    so... let me get this straight: it's okay to kill people but it's not okay to be creative and innovative?

    1. Re:Mafiaa all over again! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      Yes they do.
      http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2003-11-21/news/0311210343_1_manufacturers-and-distributors-gun-manufacturers-san-francisco

    2. Re:Mafiaa all over again! by DarthSmeg · · Score: 1

      Yeah.

      It's definitely NOT okay to kill people in creative and innovative ways!

      --
      Tarald - The Lord of Smeg
      You're not drunk if you can lie on the floor without holding on
    3. Re:Mafiaa all over again! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Some might argue that copy/paste is neither creative or innovative.
      Also, it could be considered that killing is an Art.

    4. Re:Mafiaa all over again! by Amorymeltzer · · Score: 1

      I know I'm taking the bait here, but the second amendment does come into play. The same people who say that it doesn't say gay marriage in the Constitution or wonder where Separation of Church and State is actually mentioned will notice the following about the Constitution:

      - No mention of file sharing
      - No mention of 3D printers
      - I get guns

      Is it naive? Yes. Is it ignorant? Yes. Does it happen all the time? Yes.

      --
      I live in constant fear of the Coming of the Red Spiders.
    5. Re:Mafiaa all over again! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      You're missing the point. Nobody really cares about others using their ideas, their patents or anything.

      They're doing *something* that'll make the suers less money. Hence, they get sued. Same happened (with success, sadly) over the past hundreds of years. There was this church thing that limited the creativity of everybody because it might cut into their income, there was a handweavers guild that lobbied to forbid Toyoda weaving machines, there were people claiming cd / floppy / tape copying kills their income stream, and now this is people complaining that they can't ask people to pay for what they can do themselves anymore.

      So yes, it's completely ratonal that murder weapons aren't being sued. Not until there's money to be made from not kililng people.

    6. Re:Mafiaa all over again! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Of course it is okay to kill people, people are creative and innovative!

    7. Re:Mafiaa all over again! by dkf · · Score: 1

      so... let me get this straight: it's okay to kill people but it's not okay to be creative and innovative?

      It's great to be creative and innovative, provided you then give all rights to benefit from "your" creation to some big business executive so they can spend it on hookers and blow. You? You should be glad that they let you keep breathing, you ungrateful git! </cynical>

      --
      "Little does he know, but there is no 'I' in 'Idiot'!"
    8. Re:Mafiaa all over again! by misexistentialist · · Score: 1

      Killing increases profit; creating reduces it. Any other consideration is irrelevant.

    9. Re:Mafiaa all over again! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do we know why you're making statements by answering rhetorical questions? No.

    10. Re:Mafiaa all over again! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      has anyone noticed that:

      * the Mafiaa is after file indexing sites, because the index allows people to "break the law"

      * now 3D printers are being classified as "law-breaking" tools.

      * nobody goes after weapons manufacturers and suppliers to prevent and prohibit weapons manufacturers and suppliers from putting the means to kill people into the hands of "irresponsible" people.

      so... let me get this straight: it's okay to kill people but it's not okay to be creative and innovative?

      correct

    11. Re:Mafiaa all over again! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, but weapons are specifically protected by the 2nd amendment. Now if people would just call them CD/DVD presses and 3D presses, they'd be protected by the 1st amendment.

    12. Re:Mafiaa all over again! by John+Hasler · · Score: 1

      > now 3D printers are being classified as "law-breaking" tools.

      I know of no evidence that anyone is doing any such thing.

      --
      Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
    13. Re:Mafiaa all over again! by mcvos · · Score: 1

      let me get this straight: it's okay to kill people but it's not okay to be creative and innovative?

      Of course. Creation is where the money is, so that needs to be monopolized and exploited.

    14. Re:Mafiaa all over again! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      LMGTFY

      There is a law that specifically bans suing gun manufacturers.

      Houses Passes Ban on Gun Industry Lawsuits

      http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/10/20/AR2005102000485.html

      And copying someone else's stuff is the _definition_ of being uncreative. They created it, not you!

    15. Re:Mafiaa all over again! by sorak · · Score: 1

      No, it's ok to enable murder but not piracy. And it makes sense when you think about it. Piracy costs businesses a trillion gazillion dollars a year and makes baby Jesus cry*.

      Murder creates jobs. Somebody has to bury the stiff, and then someone else has to show up for work in his place, the next day. So have you hugged your local murderer today?

      * that phrase may be copyrighted. Don't ever say it again, just to be safe.

    16. Re:Mafiaa all over again! by blindseer · · Score: 1

      nobody goes after weapons manufacturers and suppliers to prevent and prohibit weapons manufacturers and suppliers from putting the means to kill people into the hands of "irresponsible" people.

      That's because that makes as much sense as going after car manufacturers for dangerous drivers. Do we go after spoon and fork manufacturers for making people fat?

      Your premise also has the flaw that all killing is bad. I don't remember the exact words but I recall reading something to the effect of, "There are four kinds of homicide, felonious, excusable, justifiable, and praiseworthy."

      Denying people access to what has been shown to be a very effective tool against thieves, murders, rapists, and all kinds of violent animals that walk on four legs or two legs just because some insane individual MIGHT go shooting up a school is very dangerous to a free and peaceful society.

      People have gone after the manufacturers of weapons by attempting to bankrupt them in a quagmire of lawsuits. Congress stepped in to stop that practice. There are various reason why Congress would do this, one being more philosophical in that people have the right to arms, another being more pragmatic in that if the manufacturers are driven out of business then military and police would be reduced to using clubs to defend the peace.

      I know this is "bumper sticker logic" but it seems appropriate here...

      "Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those that did not."

      --
      I am armed because I am free. I am free because I am armed.
  11. Sue everybody solution by digitaldc · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Just like copying YOUR OWN cds at home, what's wrong with 3D printing and tweaking for personal use?
    Just because the technology is advanced and easy to use, doesn't mean you have to instantly start suing people. Right?

    --
    He who knows best knows how little he knows. - Thomas Jefferson
    1. Re:Sue everybody solution by AdmiralXyz · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I think the objection is this: let's say you're an inventor, and you've invented this incredible spoon. For whatever reason, the shape and ergonomic design of this spoon revolutionize the eating process, making it orders of magnitude faster, safer, and more efficient. (I have no idea how a spoon would accomplish this, but then, I'm not an inventive genius).

      By taking out a patent on your new spoon design you've ensured that unscrupulous manufacturers can't just make a mold of it and start stamping out their own Mega-Spoons without fairly compensating you. That's how patent law is supposed to work.

      But what about a world where everyone has 3D printers? If someone uploads the schematics for your spoon to The Pirate Bay and lets anyone print one out, instead of buying it from you, are they breaking patent law? Is it still a breach of the law if you're only doing it for your own use instead of selling it? Is it theft? (you're being deprived of revenue, after all)

      I'm not asking rhetorically: I honestly don't know, and I bet a lot of other people don't know either. It'd be cool if all of this could be straightened out before these printers become household technology, but that's probably wishful thinking and we'll see the same reactive nonsense that we see for movies/music now.

      --
      Dislike the Electoral College? Lobby your state to join the National Popular Vote Interstate Compact.
    2. Re:Sue everybody solution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      From TFA:

      In Europe, Bowyer says that patent law allows people to privately copy patented devices, so long as they don't try to sell it. But in the US, that's not the case, and patent law has no "fair use" exemptions.

    3. Re:Sue everybody solution by Amorymeltzer · · Score: 1

      You shouldn't conflate copyright and patent law. They are two separate concepts governed by different laws, which by a freak coincidence happen to be just as messed up as each other.

      --
      I live in constant fear of the Coming of the Red Spiders.
    4. Re:Sue everybody solution by tinkerghost · · Score: 2, Interesting

      A college was sued recently over hand constructing some testing equipment that had been patented. There are some loopholes in the patent law about use for research & the college was using the equipment to conduct research - just not on the patented item.

    5. Re:Sue everybody solution by Shark · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Philosophically, I think money should be made for performing work, including intellectual work. If you didn't find a company who would pay you to invent the mega-spoon, you did that work for free. You aren't entitled to anything but recognition that you came up with it first.

      The work and cost of *making* a mega-spoon is something you can be paid for if anyone wants one and can't be bothered to perform that work themselves. If you can come up with a way to make it better or more cheaply than someone else, that's where you ought to make your money.

      But wait, you say, there is no way to make billions in that hypothetical world of yours. Giganormous ultra-centralized production (do I hear monopoly?) is almost impossible for simple products with large markets. How can you buy lobbyists and governments? If there's a market, production will tend to be local... It will create more jobs overall, these jobs will have a healthy competing market for labour: mega-spoon makers in Michigan don't pay you enough? Move to another maker somewhere else...

      Anyway, I'm sure there's a rational argument for an IP centralized world too but as we tend toward one in our current reality, I'm not convinced by it. I'd accept a compromise like putting a pretty short expiration date on all IP. A song/movie is usually only a big hit for a few months, why should copyrights last decades? Bands/artists should be paid to *perform*: either write new stuff, go on tour or go back to being poor. If you can't offset the cost of your patented idea within the first couple years, you aren't innovating right.

      --
      Mind the frickin' laser...
    6. Re:Sue everybody solution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Like a straw.

    7. Re:Sue everybody solution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The solution is to do away with the farce of intellectual property altogether.

    8. Re:Sue everybody solution by Teancum · · Score: 2, Informative

      Copyright and Patent law are so separate that they are even regulated by two completely different branches of government. For some reason, Congress decided that copyright law wasn't even going to go through the executive branch, but instead is regulated completely and totally within the legislative branch through the Library of Congress. Yes, the Department of Justice does get involved from time to time, but mostly it stays within the legislative branch, including for copyright registration. The Librarian of Congress reports directly to the Speaker of the House and the President Pro Tem of the Senate.

      Patent law is regulated through the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office, who performs the patent reviews and archives materials related to patents. The head of the USPTO reports to the President of the USA.

      Yeah, you really shouldn't mix up the two kinds of laws, and I can't think of anything more distinctive than that.

    9. Re:Sue everybody solution by RingPeace · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately you look at it with Capitalist eyes, if everyone can produce goods at home we would be tending towards a more socialist society, sorry USians I know that is blasphemous.

    10. Re:Sue everybody solution by John+Hasler · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately you look at it with Capitalist eyes, if everyone can produce goods at home we would be tending towards a more socialist society,

      Only for certain definitions of "capitalist" and "socialist".

      sorry USians I know that is blasphemous.

      The only citizens of the USA who are likely to find this "blasphemous" are those who favor state control of the means of production. Since state socialism is more popular among EUians it would seem likely to meet with more "regulation" in Europe.

      --
      Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
    11. Re:Sue everybody solution by delinear · · Score: 1

      Just because the technology is advanced and easy to use, doesn't mean you have to instantly start suing people. Right?

      Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a breach of IP lawsuit?

    12. Re:Sue everybody solution by DontLickJesus · · Score: 1

      This is the most rational argument on the matter I've ever read, and conveys my opinion on the matter exactly. I'd vote you up but Slashdot isn't playing nice for some reason. Good show.

      --
      Where genius and insanity become confused true wisdom is found
    13. Re:Sue everybody solution by BlueStrat · · Score: 0, Troll

      The only citizens of the USA who are likely to find this "blasphemous" are those who favor state control of the means of production.

      So basically limited to only Obama and the vast majority of the Democratic Party, George Soros and all his sub-organizations, most of academia, organized labor, and the rest of the US Progressives and various communist/socialist political groups/organizations along with most of the mainstream US media.

      Somehow, I don't feel reassured by the inclusion of that "only" in your description.

      Strat

      --
      Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
    14. Re:Sue everybody solution by Overzeetop · · Score: 1

      As I understand patent law (that is to say, very surficially), you may build anything provided that it is for perosonal (or perhaps the term is "non-commercial") use.

      Should you build it for someone else, you would be considered in commerce, and subject to licensing restrictions.

      IP restrictions vary quite a bit between various forms of IP, mostly because the laws were written at different times, with different technology. For example, you can rent video works, but not audio works; however you can lend audio works as well (ie Libraries). If you get rights to reproduce or use an audio clip (aka mechanical rights), it does not automatically extend to using it combined with video (which required synchronization rights).

      In the case of the super spoon, I could make as many as I wanted for my kitchen, just as I can make my own airbag deployment module or ergonomic gel shoe insert in my shop, exactly following the description in their respective patents. I can't make them and sell them, though.

      --
      Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
    15. Re:Sue everybody solution by mark-t · · Score: 1

      In such a world, a person would be breaking patent law if they created a 3d cad file from the patent and proceeded to publicly distribute it. Or if they misappropriated a 3d cad file from the manufacturer and distributed that.

      It would not, however, be infringement for everyone to create their own 3d cad file from the patent and use that themselves.

      What is likely to happen, therefore, is that patents themselves in the future are likely to specifically avoid containing enough machine-readable information in them that a 3d cad file can be automatically generated from it. This will not stop people from creating their own 3d cad file by hand if they are so inclined, but it ought to make it awkward enough that most people would go with the original work simply because of the convenience factor.

  12. Also drinking water, walking, waving a hand by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In other news, patent holders are threatening to sue in court and proceed with astronomical financial claims to whoever:

    - walks bij violating the copyright of film studios of walking cartoons
    - waves a hand, breaking the copyright of NY Yellow Cab co
    - goes to the bathroom, an act patented by God where royalties have to be paid
    - picks up a phone, a patent by AT/T
    - talks in plain English, as in a patent from a known software for voice recognition
    - breaths, as in a patent of medical breathing machines

    all in order to protect their legal rights under the current Law.

    1. Re:Also drinking water, walking, waving a hand by Teancum · · Score: 1

      If patent law was treated like copyright law, that would be the case. Thank goodness there is plenty of "prior art" to show all of those things are unpatentable.

      I've heard of some people trying to retroactively copyright the Shakespearean plays, saying essentially that Life+400 years isn't long enough. I guess I shouldn't give Disney any ideas here.

  13. One industry 3D printers are going to destroy... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The high-end merchandising business. That is, those ridiculously overpriced ($30-$100) figurines that Japan rips people off on. When they can be printed for $1 in materials, directly from the 3D graphics application used to make them, nobody will be able to get away with charging so much anymore; the Chinese will likely just make cheap copies using 3D printers if they do.

    But the other thing it'll destroy is the opposite -- the garage kit business. Fan sell the same type of toys, usually made via labor-intensive resin casting. Eventually, selling such kits will become equivalent to selling time on a 3D printer.

  14. Re:One industry 3D printers are going to destroy.. by SuricouRaven · · Score: 3, Interesting

    As someone who has seen the price of Warhammer figures, I have no sympathy for their losses.

  15. Well duh by Arancaytar · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Wherever innovation threatens to become ubiquitous and improve civilization and everyday life, you can bet the patent system will be ready to strangle it. That's what it's for.

    1. Re:Well duh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're suggesting that 3D printers will be used in innovative ways, not to copy inventions of others.

      That's a bit of a logical fallacy, as they'll be used for both. That will be problematic. Innovation won't be free. For instance, to find the best 3D print schematic for a new blender housing will take perhaps a thousand iterations - the first one won't hold the motor, the first ten will fracture when you turn it on, and the first hundred will fracture within a week. Designing and testing those will take time and materials. Yes, it can be Open Source innovation, but it still has to happen.

      And of course, once we have such a Open Source design, we'd like it to remain free. Now here's the funny bit: Open Source Software works _because of_ copyright, not despite it. We need the equivalent for hardware schematics. Patents won't do, as they cost money. Copyright, whatever its downsides, is at least granted for free.

    2. Re:Well duh by HungryHobo · · Score: 1

      The *GPL* works because of copyright.

      many of the other open source licences which don't require improvements be released would work exactly the same without copyright.

  16. Flame by marjancek · · Score: 1

    So I will be able to get from some torrent site the design to print my own iPhone?

    Anything you can print with a 3D printer you could do with your own hands and plaster; what's the big deal?
    If cd burners are not illigal, I don't see how 3D printers could get to be.

  17. News Flash by degeneratemonkey · · Score: 1

    People who currently make money are afraid of not making money!

    That fact, however, does not preclude the rest of the world from leaving them in the dust.

  18. 3d printers aren't there yet... by Schadrach · · Score: 1

    Of course, the technology is only sufficiently advanced once it can be used to produce complete functional copies of itself from raw materials (some assembly required, of course, though if it can manage that too we'd be golden).

  19. It's rather strange that 3D printing is the issue by Constantin · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The ability to mill 3-dimensional objects has been around for a while. The advent of cheap table-top scanner systems is the real issue - once it becomes easy to make accurate 3-dimensional reproductions in CAD quickly, then the gates are opened to make all sorts of stuff at the same (or even higher) quality than OEM. The US Navy has been investing in this technology for years since they discovered that they didn't have the blueprints for all sorts of stuff anymore that was supposed to be scrapped by now.

    To me, the issue is that the ability to accurately model 3-dimensional objects has come to the average desktop. No longer do forgers have to deal with making investment-cast reproductions, where each successive generation of castings degenerates due to loss of detail (like cassette tapes, I suppose). No, this is the digital generation where these sorts of models can be shared as easily via the internet as digital music is being shared today, and it scares copyright- and trademark-holders to bits since they will more and more easily lose control of their brands. But I don't think that 3D printing is at fault here - other enabling technologies are what make them so potent a tool.

    And that's the rub, 3D printing has enormous potential to unleash a torrent of creativity as more and more folk are allowed to let their imagination run its course - delivering prototypes quickly, cheaply, and to a greater and greater proportion of the populace. Eventually, why shouldn't your local hobby shop or CVS not also deliver 3D prints in addition to the 2D stuff they deliver today? I hope that our trademark/copyright/etc. overlords are not allowed to squash this exciting technology in its infancy, especially considering that enforcing this sort of copyright control is not an issue in the developed world.

  20. They won't succeed against 3D printer makers... by John+Hasler · · Score: 1

    ...for the same reason publishers didn't shut down Xerox. They will have a theoretical contributory infringement case against those who distribute CAD files but will have even less luck than the RIAA due to the lack of statutory damages. For the same reason they won't be able to act against end-users at all unless they start selling large numbers of copies.

    The real fun will begin when the cheap 3D scanners come out.

    --
    Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
  21. Solution --- only distribute files for PD things by WillAdams · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Like a Colt 1911A1 pistol:

    http://www.sightm1911.com/blueprint/M1911A1_blue.htm

    There's no need for special laws --- existing laws for

      - trade dress
      - patent infringement (esp. of design patents which govern the appearance of a product)
      - trademark
      - copyright

    already cover these things quite adequately. It's tough that the corporations will have to pay lawyers to keep track of plan distribution sites and initiate suits on an infringing item-by-item basis, but they've no more grounds for interfering w/ 3D printing technology than they have to try to prevent people from purchasing a metal lathe, block steel, strips of spring steel and a set of good quality files (which one could use to make the afore-mentioned Colt 1911A1).

    William

    --
    Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
  22. Compare "The Right to Read" by Stallman by tepples · · Score: 2, Insightful

    What's next? Making plumbing a licensed profession which requires a a security clearance and supplies being available only from a licensed shop?

    The console makers have already done this to video game programming. GNU project founder Richard Stallman has written a short story predicting a worst-case scenario in which other kinds of programming meet the same fate, all in the name of DRM.

  23. h--.z,TTtc by Therilith · · Score: 1

    You wouldn't download a car...

    1. Re:h--.z,TTtc by VortexCortex · · Score: 1

      ... You wouldn't design a car and upload it for free (GPL)...

  24. Just another addition to the filesharing fiasco. by falldeaf · · Score: 1

    Somehow I doubt that the manufacturers of these new manufacturing devices will be the targets. Companies that produce blank CDs or mp3 players weren't really the center of attention. The riaa's primary focus from then up until now has been the mp3 files used to make the discs. Once desktop manufacturing is sophisticated enough to produce desirable gadgets the focus will probably be *solely* on the CAD files. Hopefully open source designs will see a boom once that happens. I always thought popular music would shift away from record labels after digital music and cheap, widespread distribution methods became available.

    --
    check out the Mp3 Garbler I built!
  25. There will be a need for "Open Source Models" by starseeker · · Score: 2

    Remember how this really works - whatever the current laws, there will be pressure from commercial entities to pass protective laws solely for the preservation of the commercial potential of their products. Just as copyright is expanded as needed to protect commercial interests, so will the laws be expanded (if needed) to protect commercial interests related to 3D printing. The only "safe" items will be things that clearly are not a consequence of current "protected" products and are explicitly released under open licenses.

    Of course, the article is quite correct that the statistical likelihood of companies going after any one individual for printing small numbers of parts is remote - even the music industry's campaign against file sharing has not made it all THAT probable that any given individual will be sued, it's just not cost effective to sue vast numbers of people who have no money and pay all the court costs. However, it DOES pose a problem for people who want designs that are fully legal in all senses of the word - i.e. those who want to use truly free models - and statistically unlikely doesn't mean some people won't get in trouble.

    The patent/copyright issues surrounding this issue, while fascinating, are not the only potential problems. If someone prints a design for a car part they downloaded off the web and installs it in their car, and something goes wrong, would they try and go after the source of that model? More to the point, would they have a case if they didn't pay anything and no warranties were made as to the serviceability of the design? Some jurisdictions limit the ability to disclaim things like implied warranty: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Implied_warranty Would the fact that the model in question was a free download and no money changed hands come into play? This is a point that comes up occasionally even in software - some people think they should have a right to have the tool work "for a particular purpose" even if they paid nothing to compensate the author for their work, although in practice this has seldom played out. Physical products based on designs are a more subtle problem - even if something goes wrong and money was paid, was it the design at fault or something else? How does one prove if the problem was the design, the printer, the plastic/resin used, the operation of the machine, improper use of the part, etc. etc. etc. IIRC, the Smithsonian makes people sign a waiver before they can get plans for the wright brothers airplane: http://www.nasm.si.edu/research/arch/collections/techdraw/wrights.cfm (Unfortunately these plans are quite restricted - no commercial use or redistribution, so what might have been an excellent source of high quality model plans is out of the question. I don't know if the dimensions in them are subject to copyright restriction - it seems unlikely but it would take a lawyer to figure out - but the agreement would seem to preclude anything interesting in that regard.)

    That said, all human activity carries such risks. Authors of books (or for that matter authors of web pages!) run the risk of being sued for what their book motivated someone to do. People try to sue gun makers for what people do when they misuse guns. Anyone holding public office with significant power has painted a legal bullseye on themselves. Hopefully a free model community will eventually appear, the issues will be worked out, and we'll see a surge of scanning of historical artifacts outside of all possible copyright/patent concerns and new designs under open licenses. Not just for the fun and creativity, but because those are excellent ways to preserve and build on old designs from past masters.

    The existing open CAD models are somewhat scarce, but some of those that do exist have gravitated toward the Creative Commons licensing schemes. I am aware of:

    OpenMoko:

    --
    "I object to doing things that computers can do." -- Olin Shivers, lispers.org
    1. Re:There will be a need for "Open Source Models" by Teancum · · Score: 2

      Note that with the Wright Flyer drawings, it was something original performed by the staff of the Smithsonian that they are protecting, not the original plans drawn up by Orville and Wilbur Wright. Those plans are in the public domain and the patents on them have expired.

      I personally don't have too much worry about an organization like the Smithsonian making money off of effort they put in, other than the Smithsonian is to me something that might as well be an agency of the U.S. government due to their very cozy relationship with Congress. I know it wasn't always that way, but I look at it that way at the present time, and think that such publications ought to simply be in the public domain as works performed by government employees. That is a completely separate issue, however, from the way you've framed the question as to the legitimacy of why those plans are restricted from commercial republication.

      If you took some classical work like say the writings of William Shakespeare and prepared them in some innovative and original manner, that work would be protected by copyright as well. The original words wouldn't be, but the new packaging certainly would be including any changes you may have made to those plays to make them "more modern" in some fashion. That is how copyright works.

    2. Re:There will be a need for "Open Source Models" by epte · · Score: 1

      Thingiverse is a place to freely share 3D object designs: http://www.thingiverse.com/about

      RepRap is GPLv2 and later: http://reprap.org/wiki/RepRapGPLLicence

    3. Re:There will be a need for "Open Source Models" by starseeker · · Score: 1

      "That is a completely separate issue, however, from the way you've framed the question as to the legitimacy of why those plans are restricted from commercial republication."

      Correct. I wasn't precise enough in my phrasing - what I meant was that while the presentation of the dimensions and information about the Wright airplane might be protected, (if I understand correctly) you are not even permitted to take the data itself (i.e. the actual physical measurements of the airplane documented in that presentation) and make your OWN presentation of that same data. Of course, that is a bit risky even if the agreement didn't preclude it - there is always a concern that the data may have been slightly "altered" to make it copyright eligible, similar to the question of whether map data are subject to copyright. Apparently (although IANAL) in the US the latest wisdom is that the actual physical layout of things on the map is not subject to copyright (since ANY accurate map would have to reproduce that exact same information, by definition - this is why it is thought commercial map makers occasionally add little non-existent streets or such into their maps - THAT work, being something other than a literal representation of reality (however close it may be) IS subject to copyright. See http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Copyright_Easter_Eggs)

      --
      "I object to doing things that computers can do." -- Olin Shivers, lispers.org
  26. Intellectual machinery by estestvoispytatel · · Score: 1

    I always thought Herbert's Butlerian jihad with its ban of intellectual machinery was too far-fetched for a concept, but in a few years it can easily turn into nice forecast.

    1. Re:Intellectual machinery by VortexCortex · · Score: 1

      Sadly, we're all overrun by idea machines. Corrupt court systems, Patents, Copyright, Corporations, etc.

      If you ask me, we have created our own evil idea-machine overlords which are now that are keeping us under their thumb...

      The Butlerian Jihad is such an idea machine, particularly evil in that it seeks to destroy other machines too!

  27. Re:Solution --- only distribute files for PD thing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Those are actually pretty cool. I don't see any documentation of where they came from, but they look to be copies of the original Ordnance drawings? If so, and if the intent is to document them as a public domain, free-to-copy source the website author might want to make that a bit clearer, but neat stuff!

  28. patent law allows "single copy" to be made by lkcl · · Score: 1

    these morons have missed the point that enshrined in patent law is the right to create a single copy of an invention, for the purposes of allowing the copyer to "further improve upon the invention".

  29. Of couse the will by Snaller · · Score: 1

    Because copyright is basically amoral, and will extend its shitty mitts to everything.

    --
    If Google really cared they would fix Android Chrome to reflow text, instead of discriminating
  30. Not quite by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    the patent system will be ready to strangle it. That's what it's for.

    Instead of speculating on other people's motives from your own subjective viewpoint, why not simply observe the reality of the situation?

    Fact: the patent system increases the net worth of those with the resources to exploit the system. Patent law is a weapon used to eliminate competitors. Those who have the money to exploit this weapon are rewarded with large returns on the investment.

    Fact: the patent system increases the net worth of the business of government, both in revenue and power over the people. It costs billions per year to run this system. Each lawsuit rakes more money through the business of government. From the bottom looking up, it's a waste. From the top looking down, it's an opportunity.

    Conclusion: the patent system is a tool for the elite -- both in the "private" and "public" sectors -- used to guarantee and increase their profits. The strangling of innovation isn't a goal here, but merely "collateral damage".

  31. Re:One industry 3D printers are going to destroy.. by RingDev · · Score: 3, Insightful

    It's going to be quite a while before 3-d printers become ubiquitous. Heck, even if the price plummets (last I looked a decent quality "small" printer was still in the $10k range) you still have to have a space for the rather large device. Not to mention the technical know-how on it's use and the generation of CAD files.

    And besides, what's to stop the garage kit business from buying one? These are the people that stand to gain the most. They likely have the room (by replacing their resin molding area), they have the drive and incentive to learn how to use the device, they have the creative spirit to generate their models (after learning a tool like Blender), and once they do so, their labor intensive work become simple, and perfectly replicable. No more mold release and dental cement. No more flawed and damaged models to replace. They can churn out perfect model after perfect model.

    -Rick

    --
    "Most people in the U.S. wouldn't know they live in a tyrannical state if it walked up and grabbed their junk." - MyFirs
  32. The AC has an interesting point by RingDev · · Score: 2, Informative

    The AC I'm replying to does make some interesting observations of the patent system. If you have some mod points, please toss him one, I'd like to see some discussion on his view, but not many people read at 0+.

    -Rick

    --
    "Most people in the U.S. wouldn't know they live in a tyrannical state if it walked up and grabbed their junk." - MyFirs
  33. If you thought software patents were bad by David+Gerard · · Score: 1

    What universal 3D printers will do: make patents on hardware as crippling to innovation and society as patents on software.

    So. What happens to the patent system when everyone has a 3D printer and is swapping designs amongst themselves? Is there a future for it? Can it be taken out before it strangles society?

    --
    http://rocknerd.co.uk
  34. Re:One industry 3D printers are going to destroy.. by nospam007 · · Score: 1

    "last I looked a decent quality "small" printer was still in the $10k range"

    My first IBM AT was in that price range. That was not even 25 years ago.

  35. Re:Solution --- only distribute files for PD thing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Good luck trying to create a 1911 from those prints - not only are most dimensions illegible, but the originals are riddled with errors as well.

  36. Re:Solution --- only distribute files for PD thing by BarefootClown · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Even more fun than blueprints: http://www.cncguns.com/projects/1911a1frame.html

    That's right, complete CNC files. No need to translate the blueprints and drawings into instruction lists. And light-duty CNC mills can be had for under $10k new. Sure, that sounds like a lot of money, but how many people have two or three times that in a bass boat? If machinework is your hobby, you can have your "3D printer" right now, and it'll make real metal objects, not plastic toys.

    God, I love living in the future!

    --

    "Make it ten--I am only a poor corrupt official."
    --Captain Louis Renault (Claude Rains), Casablanca

  37. Re:One industry 3D printers are going to destroy.. by Myji+Humoz · · Score: 1

    You're not paying for the price of production alone. You're paying for:

    -the designers that made them look like something other than misshapen blobs
    -the designers and developers who make rules that allow you to play a balanced game with them
    -the writers who have lovingly crafted a vast, detailed, and epic galaxy of war, darkness, and SPACE MARINES
    -lawyers to defend IP, since pirated codices and miniatures actually reduces Game Workshop's ability and willingness to create more army lists/figure lines
    -marketers to make little kids want to play as SPACE MARINES, so people actually have others to play with
    -support staff, so when developers like THQ want to make a WH40k game, we get amazing games like Dawn of War instead of terrible spinoffs

    and last but not least:
    -the Inquisition, who nobody in WH40k sees coming, because they're everywhere!

    More seriously, I know we all like to rip on price tags that put a product out of our budget range, but can we please remember that if we don't want to buy a product because of price, we can choose not to?

    Almost everything we see on shelves uses the product price to cross subsidize administrative, legal, and marketing costs. Seeing the price tag and holding it up to the cost of production is silly.

    --
    Signatures are the new names.
  38. Technology != Good || Evil it's the users intet by mrnick · · Score: 1

    A knife can be used to maim/kill or for slicing cheese. The purpose/intent behind the use of said technology lies with the end user. Will 3D printers, of the future, be used for illegal/Evil purposes? No doubt but they will also be used for many noble deeds. This shouldn't give us pause. Most any good technology cuts both ways. That's why so many of our modern advancements can be attributed to war time R&D.

    And even though a knife can be used to slice cheese they still sell a lot of sliced cheese. I think we will be alright!

    --

    Encryption: I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend your right to encrypt it...
  39. LEGO Bricks by jameskojiro · · Score: 2, Informative

    Don't order them from the LEGO website, use the BrickLink site to buy them used and far cheaper that using a reprap to make them.

    --
    Tsukasa: All I really want, is to be left alone...
  40. DMCA by Aggrav8d · · Score: 1

    And you thought it was about the music.

    I imagine TPB got a think tank together, figured out this was coming, and started planning what to do about it. Stitching up the rights now ensures no debate in the future because it will be "just the way things are".

  41. What about keys? by PrimaryConsult · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I'm surprised no one seems to have mentioned this yet. A lot of keys who's primary copy protection is specialized blanks would suddenly become as easy to copy as a standard house key. Sure integrating an electronic component would deter that, but that's many billions of locks that would need to be upgraded. I wouldn't be surprised if this is killed on some shaky legal grounds as it is an opportunity for an easy-out from this problem.

    1. Re:What about keys? by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Couldn't you do that with a CNC mill? A poster above said they're available for under $10K nowadays. If you can print a key, you can take a block of metal and mill out everything that doesn't look like a key.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    2. Re:What about keys? by Jaazaniah · · Score: 1

      So you'd favor shutting down one of the greatest advances in technology purely on the grounds that the auxilliary effects would be expensive? Buy a bio-scanning lock and move on. They will become cheaper and cheaper as time goes on. Expense is no excuse to hold a technology this important back. Imagine what would have happened if your logic was considered when decisions about information technology in the early 90s were present? Not building the internet because of the distributed adjustment that needed to happen would have meant immeasurable losses in advancement on many fronts.

    3. Re:What about keys? by Miamicanes · · Score: 1

      They don't have to make it impossible for the keys to be effective... they just need to make it too hard for 99.9% of consumers to be able to do it.

      If the Mafia (the real one, not the Music and Film Industry Association of America) wants to get Medeco (or other "un-duplicatable") keys duplicated, I'm sure they have at least one guy somewhere in the New York area who can do it and provide one-hour service with a smile. The point isn't that they can't be duplicated at all... the point is that you can't take a Medeco key to Home Depot or a store at the mall and get a copy made. Few people, even career criminals, would get their money's worth out of the investment needed to set up a key-duplication operation for keys sold without legal blanks. And in the case of an organization like the Mafia, there's so much economy of scale involved that when the police DO take down the guy doing key duplication for organized criminals in the northeastern US (and beyond), it's going to be a while before someone takes his place, because legality aside, nobody's going to want to spend the money to set up the operation only to find out that he has to share the business with a competitor. Not even the most prolific criminals need to have THAT many keys illegally duplicated.

    4. Re:What about keys? by PrimaryConsult · · Score: 1

      So you'd favor shutting down one of the greatest advances in technology purely on the grounds that the auxilliary effects would be expensive?

      Where did I say that? I'm guessing reading comprehension is not your strong suit. I was simply speculating that there are *a lot* of interests that would rather this technology never see the light of day for that reason, as the expense is astronomical. Think about subway systems, hospitals, college campuses, any corporate office building. Anyone with a vested interest in keeping these places secure would support any initiative that would kill it.
      Just look at any non-residential door you see throughout the course of your day: all of those would need a lock upgrade. Otherwise any janitor at these places could start a side business of selling keys to restricted areas in these buildings. A terminated employee would retain access. Wouldn't matter if the blanks are rare or the key chain is welded shut and they have to turn it in at the end of their shift; all someone'd need is the opportunity to take a good enough picture of the key and a little time with some CAD software.

  42. I See the Grim Irony of This Article by LifesABeach · · Score: 1

    All the parts of 3D printers are made in China.

  43. Sounds nice- never happen by way2trivial · · Score: 1

    I've priced 3-d printers and supplies.
    I don't see materials cost EVER allowing your suggested pricepoint to be reasonable or likely

    think ink jet ink prices in 3d solid form for example

    10$ per cubic inch easy today...
    for your part to be made for the low amount you suggest, the machine and materials cost would have to fall many powers of 10 below current cost.

    to run this 'convenient shop'
    the machine amortization, shop location,
      wage for the employee, and materials
    all have to be included.

    Just not realistic

    --
    every day http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Random
    1. Re:Sounds nice- never happen by TheRaven64 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Not sure where you're buying the stuff from, but $25 of plastic that feeds a RepRap or MakerBot goes a long way - it's far more than a cubic inch. I just checked on the MakerBot store, and they charge $15 for 1lb of plastic or $65 for 5lbs.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
  44. LOL by tibit · · Score: 1

    This is ridiculous. A 3D printer is like a good CNC machining center, just cheaper. A modern multiaxis machining center is just like a 3D printer, but with better resolution, and with limits as to how weird the shapes it can make -- a 3D printer can make a bunch of concentric spherical shells (each with a hole in it to drain the unfused material), a CNC can't. So whatever court verdict outlaws 3D printers, it will automatically make all of U.S. manufacturing grind to a halt (whatever is left of it). Do the U.S. patent holders really want to rid us of whatever manufacturing capability remains?

    For those who haven't experienced a CNC machining center: those are nothing like a hobbyist CNC lathe or mill. They are huge (room+ sized) multiaxis machines, sometimes with dozens axes when you combine the stock positioning, stock clamping, tool positioning, tool exchange, etc. The typical process to make a keepsake figurine on a CNC machining center goes like:

    - convert 3D model to whatever format your CAM software digs,
    - select a couple of tools (usually with progressively smaller radii),
    - have the CAM software generate tool paths from the model, check for interferences, etc.
    - install stock & tools in the machining center, upload the file, hit the RUN button on the control panel

    --
    A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
  45. It's not magic by Animats · · Score: 1

    Another computer type who thinks "3D printing" is magic. It's not.

    The technology is over 20 years old now. It has become better, and you can now get plastics with some structural strength. But it's very slow. It takes hours to make simple parts. You can make plastic parts for about 100x the cost of making them in quantity by injection molding. Making simple brackets this way isn't cost-effective. When you look at the design of the "Mendel" RepRap machine, the few parts that are actually made with RepRap could be made by injection molding, probably for about $5 a set in quantities of a few thousand. Most of the machine is electronics, motors, steel shafts, and belts, none of which RepRap can make.

    The big advances in making stuff are for flat stock. Laser cutting cuts flat parts fast, and there are no cutting tools to wear out. Plasma cutters do a similar job for metal and thicker materials. The newer models cut an edge clean enough that bicycle sprockets can be made on them. Water jet cutters cut cleaner, but the abrasive they use is expensive and the resulting slurry has to be disposed of.

    I have a TechShop membership, and access to all these tools. They have a good stereolithography machine and a 3D scanner. Those are used mostly by design firm people making prototypes. They also have three laser cutters, which are busy about twelve hours a day, rapidly cutting flat parts from wood and plastic. The laser cutter is really easy to use, and very popular for artwork. The plasma cutter isn't used as much; it was built from a kit, and has some problems which are being slowly fixed. No water jet cutter yet. Maybe soon.

    Because making one-off flat parts is now fast and easy, there's a tendency to design things to be made out of flat sections that can be laser-cut. That seems to be the way work really gets done today.

    TechShop also has both manual and CNC milling machines. Those are used regularly to cut meal, but design, planning, programming, work-holding, setup, and use are much more complex than with the laser cutter.

    1. Re:It's not magic by Tetsujin · · Score: 1

      Another computer type who thinks "3D printing" is magic. It's not.

      The technology is over 20 years old now. It has become better, and you can now get plastics with some structural strength. But it's very slow. It takes hours to make simple parts.
      You can make plastic parts for about 100x the cost of making them in quantity by injection molding. Making simple brackets this way isn't
      cost-effective. When you look at the design of the "Mendel" RepRap machine, the few parts that are actually made with RepRap could be made by injection molding, probably for about $5 a set in quantities of a few thousand. Most of the machine is electronics, motors, steel shafts, and belts, none of which RepRap can make.

      Well, yes... But these things change. I think that's the point of the article. There will come a point in time where machines like this are much cheaper, more common, and with greater functionality. There is going to come a point in time when high-quality color, multi-material 3-D printing is actually a common household item. As this happens, the impact of end-users printing things themselves will start to be felt by other industries, and they'll fight for aggressive copyright protection in this domain. That's the battle the home-fabbers are gearing up for.

      As it is now, machines like RepRap are definitely niche hobbyist items. And, as you say, despite efforts to make the machine self-replicating, there are critical components it can't reproduce. And the results are fairly crude. But the list of parts that the machine itself can print for its own construction does include some specialized stuff, like the feeder. So although the machine isn't "self-replicating", the fact that key components were designed to be printable means that it's much easier to produce additional copies of the machine than it would be otherwise - especially as the design is further improved (and the design of these key components changes again...)

      --
      Bow-ties are cool.
  46. How does this help create jobs? by Dan667 · · Score: 1

    it is one thing if it is a company that went to a lot of effort to develop a technology, but people and businesses who horde patents to patent troll as a business are killing the economy.

  47. It will be by ThatsNotPudding · · Score: 1

    for the black market parts economy. A 3D printed copy of a complex part to go along with their now near-flawless factory packaging skills? Massive profits - and massive failures.

  48. Begun, the solid-object-copyright wars have by Steffan · · Score: 1

    Video / music copyright enforcement efforts will probably pale in comparison to those attempted for the duplication and sharing of physical objects / designs.

  49. StarTrek Replicator by AmigaHeretic · · Score: 2, Insightful

    A replicator would change the world economy as we know it. People essentially wouldn't need to work. All there needs food, clothing, shelter, entertainment could simply be replicated. Larger replicator could make you a car, boat, etc. Other than power (which essentially seems to not be a real problem in the Star Trek world) you have no needs.

    A 3D printer is not nearly as advanced of course, but it's definitely a big enough leap that that it may change certain parts of our lives drastically.

    Assuming the price to "print" in 3D drops cheaply enough and the technology advances enough we may find our selves replicating our own items and killing 1000s of industries.

    Look at just the kitchen: Forks, Spoons, chopsticks, plates, cups, Spatulas, Colendars, ladles, tongs, whisks, etc. I saw a TV show with Jay Leno and he has a 3D printer in his shop which he uses to make car parts for his rare cars that are basically impossible to get other than fabricating your own.

    I imagine there will be much resistance to this type of thing by large corporations that stand to become obsolete.

  50. This is the zenith. by Jaazaniah · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Years from now historians will lament over the fall of a nation. The Americas have finally reached a manufacturing technology zenith, and instead of realizing the potential for all if us, "vested" interests will hold all of us back for the sake of "we've always done it this way".

    Does anyone here honestly think that China will not use this technology to empower citizens who are more nationally unified than Americans to outright cut imports from the US?

    think about the potential plummet in the national debt alone if cheap plastic parts and products were domestic again.

  51. The Environment Is Truly Fucked by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    if these things take off. This adds a whole new dimension to the concept of burning a coaster.

  52. Re:One industry 3D printers are going to destroy.. by Hognoxious · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    Do Games Workshop operate out of a garage? Not since you were born.

    If you don't like the prices then learn how to scratchbuild your own.

    Oh, you don't have any talent? Well fuck you then.

    --
    Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
  53. Re:One industry 3D printers are going to destroy.. by NoSig · · Score: 1

    Prices aren't directly based on expenses, they are based on what price will yield the highest return. Since expenses such as designers are not a per-item expense, those expenses are irrelevant for the price the product will be sold at. All that matters is how many people are willing to pay what price, compared to how much it costs to produce the thing. Well, maybe designer expenses are not completely irrelevant in that they act as a barrier to competition, in that a competitor will have to pay those expenses to enter the market and so there will be less competitors and hence higher prices. Still, when you pay some price, you are not being offered that price because it is reasonable in any way except that it maximizes profit for the seller.

  54. To patent a lawyer... by zooblethorpe · · Score: 1

    So how do you close Pandora's box again?

    Patent lawyers?

    So is your phrase intended as a noun, or as a verb? I would very much like to patent lawyers, and then sit on my patent to make sure we have fewer of them floating about.

    So riddle me this -- how many new lawyers fit into a 20-year patent term?

    Cheers,

    --
    "What in the name of Fats Waller is that?"
    "A four-foot prune."
    1. Re:To patent a lawyer... by bobdotorg · · Score: 1

      I meant for 'patent' to be an adjective, but you're right, it works better as a verb.

      --
      __ Someday, but not this morning, I'll finally learn to use the preview button.
  55. Re:It's rather strange that 3D printing is the iss by Solandri · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It's only become an issue because some people are still in denial about whether they manufacture hardware or software. The main culprit is the RIAA and MPAA, but the publishing industry is complicit too. For decades their software (songs, movies) was tied to hardware (records, videotapes, CDs, DVDs). They mistakenly thought they were selling hardware when in fact they were selling software, and so built their business model and protections around hardware.

    When tools for cheap or even free software replication were developed, suddenly they were hit with the full realization that they were in fact purveyors of software, not hardware. They've responded with all sorts of inane laws trying to put the genie back in the bottle and once again tie software to hardware, so they can continue with the hallucination that their business model is built upon - that they are selling hardware.

    3D printing is the same thing. The stuff you print is hardware, but the designs for what you can print are software. The people holding those designs don't want to become software sellers, they want to remain hardware sellers. They want their designs to only be manufactured using less efficient and more costly methods, but methods which allow them to retain full control of their designs. A 3D printer is thus a threat to their outdated business model, and they will do whatever they can to stop it.

    Meanwhile, the real software industry chugs along just fine (all software, not just computer software). Sure there's piracy, but there are plenty of honest people and workable business models in the new paradigm (wedding photographers used to shoot weddings for free and charge for the prints, now they charge for the shoot and give prints for free) to allow plenty of profit to be made. Thus providing ample counterargument to their claims that they need more protection or their industry will die.

    You and I know where this is all headed. The only question is how much aimless and futile legal wandering the content industry will engage in before they accept the inevitability of it all. Are they going to hold back mankind for 10 years? 25 years? 100 years? Are we going to have Star Trek type replicators in the future which could fulfill everyone's wants and needs for almost free, but be unable to use them because the content industry insists they need to be paid for the designs of everything which is replicated?

    Paid as much is if it were manufactured with a hammer and anvil? I mean if CDs were cheaper than tapes, and MP3s were cheaper yet, I could at least buy the argument that they were using these intermediate platforms to transition their business to an all-software model, and thus still needed protection during this transition. But no, they insist on trying to charge more when their costs have decreased. They themselves are walking further and further out on a limb you, I, and probably they know is destined to break.

  56. Re:One industry 3D printers are going to destroy.. by Myji+Humoz · · Score: 1

    If your sale cost is less than (fixed cost)/(#of units sold)+marginal cost, you're making a loss. Fixed costs are pretty damn relevant for the price the product is sold at; look at the drug companies.

    --
    Signatures are the new names.
  57. Re:It's rather strange that 3D printing is the iss by cdrguru · · Score: 1

    It is not creativity and the unleashing of it that is going to cause problems. It is the uncreative copying of things others have created (in physical or digital form) that causes problems.

    If you have a 3D printer that you use to make original things that you design, nobody is going to care and you will likely be able to be compensated for your creativity and real costs.

    On the other hand, if you have a 3D printer and use it for duplicating what others have done - mostly to their detriment - you will have problems.

    I don't see where the problem is what that at all. Creativity should be rewarded. Collecting/hoarding copies of works, destroying someone else's revenue, just generally being a jerk should not be rewarded at all. Sure, if you want to have a collection of every movie ever made that is fine with me. If you then want to make sure that you can give these to everyone on the planet I don't see that as fine.

    Personally, I would like to see what happens if a 3D printer or other device came along that was suitable only for making small coins. No other usable function, just making coins. Now that would be interesting. I think you could shut down a significant portion of a country if you could make US quarters for less than 1 cent each.

  58. Re:One industry 3D printers are going to destroy.. by NoSig · · Score: 1

    If you are selling at the optimal price, then you'd just be making even more of a loss selling at any other price, by definition, and fixed costs do not affect the optimal price directly. If you can predict that the optimal price is going to put you in the red, then you won't offer the product at all. Fixed costs are not relevant to price other than in reducing competition, though it's role in reducing competition can be significant and so the indirect effect can be significant. The drug companies sell at a high price because that makes them the most money. Think of it this way: do you believe that drug companies would reduce prices if they had no fixed costs, in cases where they have no competition due to a patent? Why would they do that?

  59. DARPA DMACE Challenge by Bill+Lawrence · · Score: 1

    3D printing has matured more than most people think, if they've even heard of it... Complex structures that can't be built by any other manufacturing process are quickly, easily (and, most importantly, cheaply) fabricated from CAD files out of metal powder (like titanium).

    If you don't have the money for your own 3D printer, DARPA (Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency) wants to help you out with that! We've just launched the DARPA DMACE Challenge. DMACE (pronounced "dee-mace") stands for 'Digital Manufacturing Analysis, Correlation and Estimation'.

    DARPA is offering $50,000 to the individual or team who can most closely predict the structural properties of 3D printed structures.

    Join the competition at www.DMACE.net!

    Good luck and hope to see you join up!

    DARPA DMACE Webmaster

  60. Re:Solution --- only distribute files for PD thing by rdnetto · · Score: 1

    Forget $10K, you can build your own CNC for only a few hundred dollars of parts. Admittedly, this requires a much higher skill level, but realistically geeks are going to be the early adopters for this sort of technology anyway.

    --
    Most human behaviour can be explained in terms of identity.