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Utah vs. NASA On Heavy-Lift Rocket Design
FleaPlus writes "Utah congressmen Orrin Hatch, Bob Bennett, Rob Bishop, and Jim Matheson issued a statement claiming that NASA's design process for a new congressionally-mandated heavy-lift rocket system may be trying to circumvent the law. According to the congressmen and their advisors from solid rocket producer ATK, the heavy-lift legislation's requirements can only be met by rockets utilizing ATK's solid rocket boosters. They are alarmed that NASA is also considering other approaches, such as all-liquid designs based on the rockets operated by the United Launch Alliance and SpaceX. ATK's solid rockets were arguably responsible for many of the safety and cost problems which plagued NASA's canceled Ares rocket system."
It's always a shame when the law gets in the way of science. If it didn't, I would probably have six testicles by now due to cloning.
You don't need to be a rocket scientist to figure out what lobbyist wrote that clause of the bill...
in the morning.
So... if I understand correctly, what's actually happening here is that a Utah company claims that NASA cannot meet the legal requirements by using the competition's designs, and the various Utah congressmen are joining in the chorus to support that Utah company.
Company discredits competitors, congressmen support their state's industry. Surprising? Hardly.
The solid rocket boosters have always seemed to be the most dangerous piece of the "stack". The problem is, YOU CAN't SWITCH THEM OFF. Because of this, I believe there is literally no way out for the shuttle crew while they are firing. I think Wehrner Vom Braun refused to design man rated vehicles with a solid rocket stage (he mustn't have been responsible for the Redstone I guess). Even the Russians used liquid fueled strap-on boosters in their Buran.
Of course if the shuttle had been properly funded it would've had a liquid first stage (maybe even winged so it could fly back). But that was in an alternate universe I guess. I know that Constellation would've had an escape tower that would be (hopefully) be able to pull it away from the main vehicle but still it would be much safer if the main vehicle's engines were OFF at that point.
A law to dictate which supplier to use? That sounds like something from soviet Russia.
Every time I think I remotely understand the US something shows that doesn't make sense.
Smoke me a kipper, I'll be back for breakfast!
Utah sucks... Their exports:
1. Hot chicks that like to get down (even tho they are mormons)
2. Pimple faced bible throwing teen boys
3. Solid fuel rockets WTF Who knew?
If someone can build a better motor cheaper, faster and safer than Utah... Fuck em'. They'll be the first to squeel and scream about too much gov't so... Let em' hang.
Only thing Utah is good for is another Fallout expansion...
Hatch and Bennett are the two US Senators from Utah, while Bishop represents Utah's 1st District (most of northern Utah) and Matheson represents Utah's 2nd District (most of Southern and Southeastern Utah), the latter two in the US House of Representatives. (The western portion of Utah forms the 3rd House District, represented by Jason Chaffetz. No word on why he didn't sign on with everyone else.)
How about strapping the people who made this dumb law to them, then shooting them off into low earth orbit? Or, better still, just _short_ of low earth orbit :)
We got bought by this rocket manufacturer right here and we promised them that, with our legislation, they'd get all the business from NASA. Now, NASA is tossing a monkey wrench into the whole works because they want to consider other rocket manufacturers, and our feet are being held to the fire to deliver on what we promised. We can't let NASA just select any old rocket manufacturer or we'll end up in cement shoes at the bottom of the ocean.
ATK lobbied for the laws, and now NASA is trying to circumvent the laws (read: circumvent ATK's monopoly), so ATK's bought congressmen are crying foul to preserve ATK's profits. All is well in capitalist America.
Regulation and red tape is seriously hampering the space program. We need to cut back on that. Unfortunately that won't happen until pigs fly.
Dumb laws and dumb servants block progress towards new ideas.
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
From the Release:
The language Hatch was successful in getting inserted in the NASA Authorization Act does not require the new heavy-lift rocket to use solid rocket motors. But delegation members say the Utah experts they consulted say the legislation’s requirements for the heavy-lift rocket can only be realistically met by using solid rocket motors.
If NASA said "We're going with liquid fuel boosters." they would not be violating the law.
Even if NASA told ATK "Go to hell... We'll buy our rocket motors from someone else", they would not be violating the law.
The only way they'll be breaking the law is if they fail to come up with *some* method of making it work within their budget.
And gee, what a surprise that the stonecutters are telling everyone that stone bridges are the only feasible way to get a ton of lentils across the creek.
And with those designs come terra-based launch assistance, which can (not so easily) be accommodated by hydroelectric, tidal, or nuclear power.
Our atmosphere is the big problem, here. Maybe we can design something to disrupt and push the atmosphere out of the way to make friction less of an issue towards launching in the future.
Still gotta fight gravity, though.
Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
Let's use this motto from now on, please NASA?
He who knows best knows how little he knows. - Thomas Jefferson
...because the engineers are trying to figure out a way around one of his pet earmarks!
I recall, from reading Aviation Week as a wee lad (my dad was a guidance systems engineer), that the then-senators from Utah managed to get the SRBs for the Space Shuttle (mostly) built in Utah. The preferred design was a one-piece booster, built in Alabama, barged around to Florida, but because it was built in Utah and could not travel by barge, it was instead built in segments, with O-rings between the segments. O-rings, that get hard in the cold weather, and leak gasses.
I've been trying to confirm this for years, because hey, I could have remembered it wrong, but decades-old back issues of Aviation Week are still not online in searchable form.
Just add amendments to the laws of gravity, aerodynamics and celestial mechanics and the whole rocket design process will become much easier. Surely the utah legislature can manage that, can't they? (and while they're at it, sort out Pi, too?)
politicians are like babies' nappies: they should both be changed regularly and for the same reasons
If everyone knows that all politicians are corrupt and anti-democratic, then why do we never do anything about it?
In most systems, including the US, the only inside-the-system option for reform is to have the representatives enact the reform. And of course they're never going to do that.
So it is time to step a little bit outside the system: start a new fork, open source our governance.
Oh, NASA, NASA, when will you learn? You keep trying to make spacecraft, when as we all know your job is to build precision pork delivery vehicles.
As I recall, the reason the boosters were not a safer one-piece design was because Hatch had to have Morton Thiokol in Utah get the contract. MT could only build them in segments using the questionable O-ring joints because a whole booster could not be shipped from Utah to Florida.
Seven people would still be alive today if Hatch had kept his sanctimonious oinky nose out of NASA's engineering process.
If Slashdot were chemistry it would look like this:Cadaverine
After the disaster in 1986, everyone knew about the role of Utah's senators in the disaster - but as you say, it's hard to find now. Between the fact that much data from that era was never put online, and possibly some gaming of search results to steer searchers elsewhere, I don't see anything now. I imagine that certain rocket companies in Utah would prefer that no one knew about that.
Anyway, it was common knowledge at the time.
it's not like this is rocket science or anything...
oh, wait a minute... what?
Steve -- If you have to call it a system, you don't know what it is.
Well you could set off an atomic bomb and follow up behind the shockwave as it pushes the air out of the way, ride the wave of air created by the rising fireball, or you could just let the atomic bomb push you into orbit. Wait, I've read that somewhere before...
Really? Weren't experimental new technologies the whole point of the space program? Wasn't national security being at stake the whole reason the space program dared to do something farther, faster, and bigger than anyone had ever done before? These congressional idiots have literally lost touch with reality and the spirit of exploration and innovation, which is what made this country great. Thanks Utah for voting these morons in...
"According to the congressmen and their advisors from solid rocket producer ATK, the heavy-lift legislation's requirements can only be met by rockets utilizing ATK's solid rocket boosters. They are alarmed that NASA is also considering other approaches, such as all-liquid designs based on the rockets operated by the United Launch Alliance and SpaceX."
No, they're alarmed that the corporation that fluffed Orrin won't be getting the kickbacks he promised them. Fuck Orrin Hatch. Fuck him right in his mouth. Repeatedly.
I guess the election is over and Republicans don't have to play pretend anymore.
SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
Hey, wait, you're considering designs that don't mandate using boosters built by a specific contractor based in our state? That can't be legal.
Too bad we can't vote to recall senators from other states.
The pork must flow.
the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
Back when Wernher Von Braun created the Saturn 5, he was given the freedom to design the BEST rocket for the job. And that rocket put 12 men on the surface of the moon.
When they built the space shuttle, they made compromises in its design in order to ensure companies located in key congressional districts got contracts and as a result, the Shuttle Challenger blew up and killed 7 people. (I have no clue if the aforementioned design compromises were responsible for Columbia)
The politicians need to leave NASA alone and let NASA buy and fly the BEST rocket for the job. Regardless of whether that rocket is made by ATK, Boeing, SpaceX, the Russians or some guys on a sheep station in the Australian Outback. And they need to get out of the way of the private space industry and let it thrive, only getting involved in so far as ensuring that 3rd parties and their property are not harmed/damaged and that the work done by these space companies is not turned into nuclear missiles aimed at downtown DC.
crony capitalism = crapitalism
As in "the crap always trickles down"
the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
Next reality TV show: "Vote them off the planet!" With a suspense scene - One-way or... Return.
;) ).
Even if you don't actually send the "one-way" winners unless they volunteer to pay for return fare (with a potentially embarrassing interview), I'm sure many would be happy to pay to vote (or even vote more than once
Next, "Launching up the Stars"...
Now that would impress the ladies.
See, this is what happens when your business relies entirely on massive government contracts. You lobby congress, and buy legislators to make sure you keep getting them.
that with Mitt Romney running in 2012, they are kicking into high gear for sales as part of an effort to increase his campaign contributions.
Is it true that all Utah state employees will be required to wear these starting in January 2012?
No, thats incorrect. The law is there for several good reasons; It just happens there is only 1 supplier of the technology. With funding I could star another company creating the same technology and compete.
The is a gross misrepresentation of the law and it's intent.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
This is why for all their platitudes and supposed small government aims that I will not vote for Republicons. The Dems are guilty too. But the republicons lie more when they claim small government. They want all the low taxes in the world (to help subsidize their industries) and then whey get a chance they use the government to step in subsidize business even when its not in the best interest of the country or in this NASA. They block out competition which is anti-competitive behavior and has nothing to do with the "free market" economics that the republicans claim to uphold. They are all liars the whole bunch of them. Duplicitious, greedy liars who only support their own company and their own aims. The only reason they don't want any regulations is so they can make a faster buck and take more public money for themselves and their own corrupt corporations. Many will argue loudly. The more loudly they argue the less any should listen to them. All their bunch with the tea partiers, haters, homophobes, corporate welfare state mergers, Glenn Becks, Rush Limbaughs and other literalists are a bunch of crazy, lunatic, psychopathic fascists. Cast them out and ignore them. They are self delusional and out of control. Well, my vote didn't go for them. Good day.
Tax Breaks for companies keeping permanaent stations in orbit and lunar bases.
Just say that any company that can man a permanent lunar base with an increasing number of astronauts ever year has to pay no taxes on earth.
Lockheed and Boeing and maybe even SpaceX would have permanent lunar bases on the moon so fast it would make your head spin.
The taxes you wouldn't collect would probably even be less than the extra money we throw at NASA every year, win-win.
Make the moon a tax shelter and watch the human race expand into the solar system.
Tsukasa: All I really want, is to be left alone...
According to the congressmen and their advisors from solid rocket producer ATK...
Wow, I've never seen lobbyist spelled that way before.
#include <signature.h>
What would he do without his Pork?
The weird thing is, his heavily Mormon population state, Utah, has typical Semitic-Judeo-Christian fundamentalist prohibitions on Sexuality, Caffeine, and Alcohol, but unfortunately, NOT PORK.
Personally, since Orrin Hatch has suggested that RIAA companies have the right to hack into my computer and destroy it; without any warrant, probable cause, judicial oversight, or any state-backed law enforcement, (basically, having a big, fascist, caca-smearing-eating-fetish party all over the Bill of Rights), I have zero sympathy for Orrin Hatch, or the idiot people of Utah who keep re-electing him. Utah is a state, that as far as I'm concerned, can secede back to the freaking stone age where they belong. They deserve no rights, and no federal dollars, and no benefits of modern science.
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
the heavy-lift legislation's requirements can only be met by rockets utilizing ATK's solid rocket boosters
The military-industrial-congressional complex in all its glory. The point is to transfer money to specific highly influential businesses. The rest is pure bullshit.
Here's why:
Let's say I design, on the cheap, a delivery system that, in the event of failure, will explode into a delightful fireball. Why spend the extra money on a slightly less destructive fireball?
The flaw in your logic is that you think that fireballs are the only possible result of a failure. The goal of safety measures like wings or liquid rockets need not be to preserve life; it can also preserve the equipment and personnel as assets. Any failure that leaves you with a mostly functional rocket and a veteran crew is far preferable, economically speaking, to a failure that leaves you starting from scratch.
Yes, preventative measures are expensive. However, they are very rarely more expensive than reactionary measures.
No, Comrade! You are wrong! They are our valiant national heroes, struggling against terrorism and injustice! Fighting for freedom, liberty, small government, a balanced budget, and prosperity for all! There aims are true, their spirit is noble! They know that by enriching Job Creators, Investors, and Patriots, the rest of us will soon have a chicken in every pot, affordable health care, and a pension on which to retire. Support the War on Drugs, the War on Terror, the War on Socialism, the War on Taxes for Job Creators and Investors, the War on Gay Marriage, the War on Anyone Who Isn't an Evangelical Christian, the War on People With Too Much Melanin, the War On People Who Want to Get Rid of Lobbyists, and all of the great and patriotic wars they fight in our name!
So, a bunch of "bought by ATK lobby" congresmen openly have a problem with NASA considering a cheaper, safer solution over what they forced on NASA with no consideration other then the cash that landed in their pockets from ATK.
And people freely elect these corrupt bastards?