Why Money Doesn't Motivate File-Sharers

nk497 writes "File-sharers aren't motivated by financial gain, but by altruism, according to an economist. Joe Cox, of the Portsmouth Business School, said those uploading content for others to share don't see what they're doing as illegal, meaning current tactics to deter piracy are doomed to fail. 'The survey data suggested there was a deep-seated belief that this type of activity shouldn't be illegal, that there was no criminal act involved.'"

Comments

Duh?

[betterunixthanunix]

This is news? Did anyone think that file sharers were making money?

Re:Duh?

[houstonbofh]

This is news? Did anyone think that file sharers were making money?

The *IAAs do. That was the basis of the pirate bay case.

Re:Duh?

[Skarecrow77]

I'm pretty sure it's the file sharers who are out of touch if they don't see what they're doing as illegal.

You can't make something legal by wishing it. These aren't fairies we're talking about here. you're not going to clap your hands and have tinkerbell drop legal blu-ray rips into your lap.

If you believe that the current model is outdated, You can lobby. you can vote. you can inform. you can raise awareness. you can debate. but just ignoring the fact that it's illegal doesn't make it legal.

Re:Duh?

[choko]

The IAAs can't fathom why a person would do ANYTHING unless they are being paid for their work. There is a fundamental difference in philosophy here. These are the same people that think everyone is motivated by the same greed that they are.

Re:Duh?

[metrix007]

When a law makes illegal something that a significant number of people do and don't see as wrong, that is a problem with the law, not the people breaking it. Indeed, such laws should continue to be broken.

Re:Duh?

[geminidomino]

I'm pretty sure it's the file sharers who are out of touch if they don't see what they're doing as illegal.

No, it's just more evidence that our so-called "representative government," well... isn't.

Re:Duh?

[jejones]

How would that notion apply to the Civil Rights Act of 1964? The whole point of the US government is that there are checks and balances even against the people. It shouldn't be possible to deprive people of their rights just because a significant number of people think it proper.

Re:Duh?

[shutdown -p now]

Did anyone think that file sharers were making money?

"Financial gain" != "making money". It can also mean "not spending money".

And yes, I do think that it is precisely what motivates the majority of file sharers in practice. Actually, that's what TFA says as well:

For the leechers, pretty obviously, the major motivation was financial. They wanted to acquire music or films without paying for it because it was cheaper than going out to buy it.

What was interesting was the difference with the seeders, and it was quite apparent that financial motivations were nowhere near as prevelant; it was a kind of altruism.

So most leechers (who make up the majority on any file sharing network) are, in fact, motivated by money. Most seeders are not, however (duh).

Re:Duh?

[idontgno]

ObStarTrek reference:

Think Ferengi. Altruism is criminal, or insane, or both. Not turning a profit on any transaction is Against The Ferengi Way.

That's the *AA for you.

Re:Duh?

[HungryHobo]

I put this post up before with a few more spelling mistakes but I think it might fit this topic too...

You know I sometimes wonder if the world would be a richer or poorer place without copyright, plenty of things would be different certainly and those who make their money from the current system will of course tell you the world would be a poorer, worse off world for it.

It's almost taken as a given that the world would have less creativity without copyright but I do wonder.

If the chef at your local restaurant had to pay royalties whenever he used a recipe published by a celebrity chef would you have a tastier and more enjoyable meal?
What if he risked being sued into the ground if he created a derivative work by altering the recipe slightly without a license?
or would you just have a more bland, unoriginal, uninspired and ultimately vastly more expensive meal?

If your hairdresser had to pay royalties whenever some kid comes in with a magazine picture and says they want their hair to "look like that".
Would everyone have far more interesting hairstyles or would it just cost far more and see people getting sued for doing their own hair at home in a copyrighted style?

Both these things are creative and also involve a skill much like storytelling or playing a musical instrument and in both cases I've heard of people trying to get copyright protections extended to cover them.

Imagine a world where in the 17th century someone had decided that recipes and cooking should fall under copyright along with books.
You can be sure that were someone to call for it's repeal 300 years later there would be no lack of "professional recipe composers" who would talk about how much work they put into working out new recipes and the time and effort it takes and how we're bad people for implying that they haven't worked hard and that they somehow don't deserve a cut whenever someone follows their recipes.

of course in a world where we're all free to take someone elses recipe, use it, copy it, publish it or even claim it as our own we know very well that fuck all harm has been done to the industry for the lack of legal protection on such creativity.
We live in a world where everyone has family recipes but hardly anyone has family music.

In a world where such legal protections existed and nobody ever knew such an open and unprotected situation as we have in this world it would be very easy to claim that there would be no creativity, no well paid chefs and that setting up a kitchen would be pointless since someone else would just copy the chefs recipes.

Similarly it's taken almost as a given that the world would have less good books, less good stories and less origionality without copyright but try questioning that even for a moment.

Of course someone is going to complain that composing and cooking a good meal can't be compared to composing and playing a good piece of music because..... well just because!

Who knows, the flip side of my argument is that perhaps if recipes had been made copyrightable 300 years ago and someone could charge you money every time you used their recipe there would have been more investment in automatic food preparation(for the sake of consistency, avoiding unintentionally creating unlicensed derivative works and accounting of who has used what recipe) and we'd all have autocooks like we all have MP3 players and every meal would be up to the standards of a master cheff.

Re:Duh?

[Chapter80]

Actually, no, this is a Republic, not a democracy (assuming "this" refers to the United States).

And no, this is not "majority rule". The US Constitution is specifically designed to protect the interest and rights of the minority, OVER majority rule.

Sorry, were you trolling with intentional errors?

Re:Duh?

[Yvanhoe]

Actually, there is the world of haute-couture where designs are not protected by copyright, trademarks, patent, etc... Therefore, they have to invent new things every year. Looking at how desesperatly innovating this industry is, I have no doubt that a world without copyright and intellectual property would go much much faster.

Re:Duh?

[JockTroll]

The *IAA can't fathom why THEY shouldn't be paid for SOMEONE ELSE's work. FTFY.

Re:Duh?

[GreatBunzinni]

I'm pretty sure it's the file sharers who are out of touch if they don't see what they're doing as illegal.

It's ironic that you are accusing others of being out of touch by claiming that file sharing is illegal. In fact, it is only illegal under some jurisdictions and, if that wasn't enough, only on very specific circumstances. Let me explain.

First of all, you must be aware that when people talk about "file sharing" or, nowadays, even "piracy", they are referring to nothing more than a copyright violation. That means that the issue is none other than distributing a work of art without the copyright owner's* explicit authorization. This bit of information is important to understand this issue, as there is a lot of FUD and propaganda muddying the waters, so that ignorant folk believe nonsense such as "you wouldn't download a car" or "copying a file is theft".

Now that we know that this "file sharing" thing is nothing more than distributing works of art without the copyright owner's explicit authorization, you must understand the rules which are implemented in different jurisdictions. For example, in countries that follow the French tradition of copyright law, it is very legal to distribute a work of art without the copyright owner's explicit authorization. It's legal to copy and distribute any work of art, provided that the sharing is being done whole following a couple of conditions, which are:

• The work is shared without any commercial compensation (i.e., the sharers aren't making a buck out of it)
• The distribution doesn't affect the commercial distribution in a meaningful way

So, in any jurisdiction that recognizes those basic values any citizen is free to distribute any work he wishes, provided that he isn't earning money from it and that he isn't personally responsible for undermining the entire commercialization of that work of art.

As a consequence, we have countries where it has been explicitly declared that sharing files is perfectly legal.

You can't make something legal by wishing it.

In the same manner, you can't make something illegal by mindlessly claiming that it is.

These aren't fairies we're talking about here. you're not going to clap your hands and have tinkerbell drop legal blu-ray rips into your lap.

Of course not. You just go to the library and pick up any book, CD, DVD or leaflet, or even just right-click on a file and click "download". It's much, much easier and simpler than getting tinkerbell involved. And perfectly legal, too.

If you believe that the current model is outdated, You can lobby. you can vote. you can inform. you can raise awareness. you can debate. but just ignoring the fact that it's illegal doesn't make it legal.

See, you wasted your post mindlessly repeating that it is illegal without pointing out a single evidence that it is so, no matter where you are, no matter where you are from. Meanwhile, people who happen to live in civilized countries whose legislative branch wasn't (yet) dominated by content distributors do enjoy some legal rights, including the right to access copyrighted works without the owner's explicit authorization (i.e., file sharing). But keep drinking that kool-aid and repeating your "it is wrong, mmmkay?" mantra.

* the sad state of affairs is that some jurisdictions bastardized their legal concept to change "author" to "copyright owner" and then make it possible to transfer copyrights from the artists, those who actually produced the work, to commercial entities who dedicate themselves to market and distribute what they label as "content". Therefore, this copyright issue, in those jurisdictions, stopped being about copyright but about the ability for a corporation to control and hold content hostage.

Re:Duh?

[bberens]

There was a video about this very subject a while back on SD. Essentially you can't patent/copyright a "look" or things that are too common like clothes. Therefore you have things like giant horrendous LVs all over Louis Vuitton clothing. You can still go after them for trademark infringement.

Re:Duh?

[Americano]

The government exists to serve the people, not the other way around.

That's true, but you have to realize in a disagreement between two groups of people, "serving the people" doesn't necessarily mean "Give me what I want, tell those other guys to fuck off." When two groups of people have competing interests, you can't just expect one of them to cede all of their rights & entitlements to the others with no consideration given in return. In other words: The RIAA is overcharging, and overzealously trying to preserve a business model that's outdated. The file sharers are underpaying, and overzealously trying to kill a business model in an industry with little regard for the sociopathic nature of their behavior.

Artists have a right to set a price for their work. It doesn't matter what the medium is that they choose to distribute it. If the price is too high, then you shouldn't pay them for their work - but you also should not TAKE a copy of their work without paying. If you don't find the enjoyment you get from the work to be worth the price the artist is asking for the work... then find another artist whose work you do value, or who sets a more reasonable price.

Re:Duh?

[Gerzel]

You are implying that most artists A. Own the work they produce and B are able to make a living with copyright.

Most work for a company doing work that the company wants never owning the copyright to that work. Do you really think that without copyright ad agencies won't want artists to make their adds prettier?

The entertainment industry would still exist, people would still be willing to spend money but the derivative market would be far less.

Most artists are unable to live off their work now and there are some that do live in gutters. Given Poe's life he probably would have been in the gutter anyway artist or not.

Re:Duh?

[Archangel Michael]

A couple of things.

First, To copy a hair style, takes flair and adaption. IF I could have Brad Pitts hair I would. I would download it and put it on my head. It doesn't make me Brad Pitt. But I don't have Brad Pitt's hair, and it takes a skilled artist to even come close.

Second, to copy a Chef is more than recipe. There is a style to the knife work, cooking and other skills required beyond ingredients. Recipe is only PART of the artistry. I we could duplicate the cooking style of a chef, automatically with the fictional cooking machine, which duplicates the entire meal perfectly, who would own the skill of the chef being programmed into the machine?

When I cook, each time I make something, it is slightly different from the last time I made it, it is flair. A TRUE artist has flair and skill that makes each performance unique and yet distinctly the artists. People like the Grateful Dead understood that each performance was its own artwork, and didn't rest upon the recording of a single performance in perpetuity. I don't rest on that one great performance (awesome dinner, if I say so myself) I had two years ago for my wife's Birthday. And if I tried to recreate the meal today, it would have the same basic ingredients but would be distinctly different, the artist's flair.

The idea of resting on one's laurels is sad among the "artist" crowd these days. We miss the great performances that transcend the "notes" of the music. If you've never seen a great performance artist, you're missing something.

Re:Duh?

[HungryHobo]

In the UK most full time musicians are close to or bellow the poverty line.

http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/news/general_music_news/most_musicians_are_on_poverty_line.html

can the same be said of full time chefs in the UK?

Re:Duh?

[cheekyjohnson]

If I was paid a minimal amount per-copy of my software sold, I might be a little more upset when I find one of my applications on a torrent site.

That's not surprising considering that many people tend to hold onto illogical beliefs if it benefits them personally. File sharers aren't actually taking anything. In order for them to be taking something ('loss' of 'right' to distribute their own works does not mean something was taken from them, because that's exactly the 'right' that I think shouldn't exist), when they copy, someone else must lose something that they already had. They didn't have the file sharer's money, so that wasn't stolen. The product was merely copied, so that wasn't stolen. The authors didn't even lose any time because of the pirate (it did take time to make the media, but that isn't the pirates' fault). Saying that 'loss' of future potential gain equates to harm is like saying that someone harmed me because they didn't give me all of their money, or that competition harms businesses because someone might choose to shop at a competitor's store. It would only be harm if they lost something that they already had. This simply isn't the case.

Re:Duh?

[Attila Dimedici]

You are misconstruing the OP's argument. They were responding to a post that said that if a significant number don't see something that is illegal as wrong, there is something wrong with the law. They were pointing out that a lot of people didn't see anything wrong with the things that the Civil Rights Act of 1964 made illegal and that that doesn't make it a bad law.
However, if a significant number of people see nothing wrong with doing something that is illegal, there is a serious problem that requires open and frank discussion. It may be that this situation exists because the law is a bad law that should be repealed. It may be that a significant number of people do not fully understand the consequences of violating this law (not counting the legal consequences). Most likely it is a varying degree of some of both.

Re:Duh?

[Opportunist]

If anything, Mickey Mouse is a prime example how copyright got out of hand.

The idea was to give writers and creators a way to recover their investment. Mostly, their investment of time. Copyright was created in a time when writers needed months, even years, to get their books published, and had no revenue but the sale of those books alone. And they could only hope and pray that it was published quickly and in large quantity, as soon as the manuscript was out, copies and knockoffs would be in the market in no time.

Fast forward to the 1930s and Mickey. The creation of Mickey took ... well, let's be generous and say hours. The original showing of Steamboat Willie most likely already paid handsomely for the time invested in its creation. And given that the "sale" of this comic figure in movies is only the tip of the mountain, along with other merchandize, I'd say that the investment paid off million- if not billionfold.

Walt Disney died in 1966. Yet the copyright for this figure he created is supposed to run out 70 YEARS after his death. I say supposedly because I do not yet believe Disney (the corporation) will allow it without a fight.

Where is the sense in that? What purpose does this insanely prolonged copyright serve? Even if you said that the creator should be able to make a living from a single creation (something I definitely challenge, show me one architect that gets to charge forever for a house he designed!), the copyright almost invariably runs longer than the creator could possibly live! The original intent, to protect the creator, has become a farce. Art has become a simple commodity. Worse, not even art itself, but the right to use art.

That's sick, people.

Re:Duh?

[JustinOpinion]

Good points. (Relatedly, see this TED talk about how the fashion industry thrives despite lack of copyright protection.) Let's think about various things that can and cannot be copyrighted (many examples taken from that TED talk):

Creative things that cannot be copyrighted:
-Recipes, cooking styles and techniques, etc.
-"Look and feel" of food
-Fashion/jewelery/etc.
-Furniture
-Sculptural design of vehicles
-Magic tricks, jokes, etc.
-Sports techniques/moves/plays/strategies
-Fireworks displays
-Hairstyles
-Smells/perfumes
-Rules of games

Creative things that can be copyrighted:
-Pictures/photos/etc. -Movies/video/etc.
-Books/essays/etc.
-Software
-Music/musical scores/sound recordings/etc.
-Choreography
-Sculptures
-Architecture

From these lists we can infer a few things. Firstly, it should be clear that the usual heuristic rules people carry around about copyright are not reflected in the laws. Those who defend copyright often talk in terms of an artist's "right" to control their work, yet clearly there are many artistic endeavors in the first list that go without protection. Similarly discussion about artistic incentives seem strange, given that some creative acts are afforded the incentive of copyright and others are not.

Which brings us to the second thing worth noting. Do the protected acts (second list) generate far more valuable creativity/art than the first? It can be very difficult to measure the impact and importance of creative work. (For what it's worth, the economic activity associated with the unprotected items dwarfs the protected ones.) So let's consider an easier question: Is there a lack of creative output for non-protected art (first list)? The answer is pretty clear: despite a lack of legal protection against copying, the activities in the unprotected list are vibrant, interesting, innovative, and rapidly advancing. Despite the lack of protection/incentive (arguably, because of it) these industries create interesting new products, artists devote themselves to inspiring works, and large sectors of the economy grow as a result.

So the question becomes: considering that we have ample evidence that many creative activities can thrive without protection, what is the justification for copyright protection? I do agree that there are some differences between the lists (e.g. it's trivially easy nowadays to copy music, whereas copying a hairstyle requires more effort and a skilled craftsperson to do the work each time). But even in cases of very close analogy (photographers claim they need protection for prints of their work; meanwhile the fashion industry has found a way to stay relevant without protection, even though they are just selling a style/look/etc. that others can and to copy).

I think there are many examples where creativity thrives without copyright. That doesn't mean that copyright isn't a good idea (maybe creativity thrives even more when protected?), but it does mean we should be very suspicious of simplistic arguments that claim creativity/art wouldn't exist in a world without restrictions on copying.

Summary wrong

[guyminuslife]

The interviewee says that uploaders don't think that what they're doing should be illegal, not that they aren't aware of the legal ramifications or that education about the law would suddenly change everything.

Re:Summary wrong

[guyminuslife]

As opposed to saying "don't see what they're doing as immoral."

Re:What about file shearing old games that are not

[Dexter Herbivore]

What about file shearing old games...

Old games depilate you????

Oh, I am sure most...

[PortHaven]

Oh, I am sure most file-sharers understand that it is illegal. The billions of $$$ that our government wastes on anti-piracy, and sending Homeland Security after them.

But is it immoral? That is the real question. And most file-sharers do not feel it is immoral.

--

A large part of this is because we have been ripped off for decades by the music cartel (RIAA). Who has also been ripping off artists for even longer. When we're paying $15 for a $2 product and the artist is lucky to see a dollar. Somehow that cartel's claims that "we're stealing", fall on very deaf ears. And when we see lawsuits which fine someone $2.5 million for a few 99 cent songs - quite clearly in violation of the United States of America's Constitution. We lose any pity we might have for a corrupt industry whose business model is extinct. And if not for the fact that they have paid billions to buy off our government, would have been put out of business a decade ago.

There is a feeling of justification...

Bingo.

[metrix007]

At the most it could be immoral, although sharing things for people who may not be able to afford it otherwise would hardly seem so.

I paid to see about 3 movies in the cinema last year, and only two this year. The rest simply don't seem worthy of risking a $10 movie ticket, considering I don't have a disposable income.

I downloaded about 100 over the last two years however, and got some enjoyment from them. I would not be able to pay for the DVD's, and rentals are not a realistic option for me.

Likewise games. In the last 2 years I played Batman:Arkham Asylum which was horribly disappointing, MW2 which was fun but I finished it in about 5 hours, and don't care about multiplayer, Bioschock, which I thought was horribly overrated, Medal of Honor which was shorter than MW2, but without any redeeming features, and Fallout 3 and Fallout 3 NV. Out of those games the Fallout 3 games are the only ones I would pay for, but I still can't afford it. Even if I did pay for them, I would probably throw the game out, as the pirated versions are so much more convenient and bug free.

Given how well the content industries are doing financially, all the hubbub against copyright infringers just smacks of greed, and nothing else.

Still trivialising the issue

[Grumbleduke]

While there was some interesting thoughts here (although nothing particularly new), I think he still makes one of the funamental mistakes the copyright industry pushes for;

For the leechers, pretty obviously, the major motivation was financial. They wanted to acquire music or films without paying for it because it was cheaper than going out to buy it.

He is willing to accept that seeders might not be only interested in financial gain, but fails to consider that this might also be the case for some leechers (as other studies and real-world situations have suggested). The greater convenience of pirated media over a licensed version can be enormous. For example, there have been cases where material has been offered on a "pay-what-you-want-but-pay-something" basis and yes people still pirated the content; showing that there is a disproportionate difference between paying $0.01 (or £0.01) and not paying. For some this might be some principle of not paying and being cheap, but for others this may well be an issue of convenience.

As for the "pretty obviously" part, whenever someone states that something is obvious I recall something my analysis tutor said; "if someone is obvious, prove it; either it is obvious, in which case it won't take long, or it may turn out to be obvious, but untrue." Obviously this was in maths, which has much higher levels of proof, but it does seem that calling something "obvious" is a way of dismissing the converse without proper consideration.

The survey data suggested there was a deep-seated belief that this type of activity shouldn’t be illegal, that there was no criminal act involved.

Also, it is worth noting that in the UK there isn't necessarily any criminal act involved with unlawful file-sharing. Our copyright law is based on civil lawsuits and "actual damages", provided one avoids infringing in the course of business. Of course, this hasn't stopped the copyright industry from twisting our fraud laws to prosecute (unsuccessfully, in general) and persecute those allegedly involved in copyright infringement.

Buh but it's INFRINGING, not STEALING!

[AmazingRuss]

So it's ok.

Re:Movies

[JayRott]

This picture someone made says it all: http://www.thebuzzmedia.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/why-people-pirate-movies-steps-to-watching-video.jpg

This isn't altruism

[edremy]

Altruism is giving something of yourself. If I write a kickass piece of software or a great song, or a novel and give it away under a GPL or CC license for the rest of the world, that's altruism.

Giving away something that somebody else made and who presumably doesn't want it given away (otherwise they would have done so) is *not* altruism. You can argue theft, copyright infringement, whatever, but it is in no way comparable.

Re:This isn't altruism

[VShael]

They are giving their time, CPU cycles and bandwidth, altruistically.

TFS is subtly misleading

[shutdown -p now]

The very first sentence:

File-sharers aren't motivated by financial gain, but by altruism

is overly generic. In practice, here's what TFA says:

For the leechers, pretty obviously, the major motivation was financial. They wanted to acquire music or films without paying for it because it was cheaper than going out to buy it.

What was interesting was the difference with the seeders, and it was quite apparent that financial motivations were nowhere near as prevelant; it was a kind of altruism.

So it only applies to those who deliberately upload.

Yet more proof!

[DarthVain]

Money Doesn't Motivate File-sharers.

Now think of a pirate. What are his motivations? Booty (money), rape, and pillage.

So as long as file sharers are not motivated by raping (Julian Assange doesn't count!) and pillaging then they should finally be off the hook and put to bed that stupid terminology!

Re:You wouldn't steal a baby

[chemicaldave]

My favorite from their ads is the line "You wouldn't steal a car."

Fuck you. If I could download it I would.

Doing what you like

[lymond01]

I keep thinking that, perhaps, one day we'll be able to do what we want to do with our time. If actors want to act, they'll do so without the guarantee of acquiring money (see local community theaters). If musicians want to play, they'll play. I guess it comes down to being able to create food and shelter for yourself -- you wait tables because you need a home, but you play music because that's what you love. I think it's great that popular musicians get paid for doing what they love, but it's sad that it's a necessity.

Sigh...not even sure what I'm trying to say other than I'm not sure what the end goal of a capitalistic society is. We're technologizing ourselves out of jobs, always have been. What happens when robots are doing all the work, creating the music and art? Aside from the robotics engineers, who's collecting a salary?