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Scientists Decipher 3-Billion-Year-Old Genomic Fossils

hnkstrprnkstr writes "MIT scientists have created a sort of genomic fossil (abstract) that shows the collective genome of all life underwent an enormous expansion about 3 billion years ago, which they're calling the Archean Expansion. Many of the new genes appearing in the Archean Expansion are oxygen related, and could be the first biological evidence of the Great Oxidation Event, the period in Earth's history when oxygen became so plentiful that many anaerobic life forms may have become extinct."

217 comments

  1. At last! by lpaul55 · · Score: 3, Funny

    I can breathe!

    --
    ... now back to the bit mines.
    1. Re:At last! by Requiem18th · · Score: 1

      Archea LvlUp!
      Archea learned BREATH!

      --
      But... the future refused to change.
    2. Re:At last! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Good - there's oxygen on this planet!

  2. For the "but it's just a computer model!" trolls by Daniel+Dvorkin · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Go here. Follow, read, and understand the links on the first, say, three or four pages of search results. Then, maybe, you'll know enough to have a meaningful opinion on the subject.

    --
    The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
  3. Wait, what? by WD · · Score: 3, Funny

    I'm confused. So they were on the Ark or what?

    1. Re:Wait, what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      whoa, someone left their comedy detector off today. Get some sleep dude!

    2. Re:Wait, what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is actually nothing in the biblical text that precludes evolution all all the prior lifeforms.

    3. Re:Wait, what? by garyisabusyguy · · Score: 4, Interesting

      really, creationism is the 'elephant in the room' whenever you start talking about the fossil record

      what I find interesting about the article is the layering effect of life. how the anerobic life got pushed out by the oxygen breathers and relegated to living in the cracks. good for us, but an extinction event for them. there have been many big extinctions, and each allowed some hardier form of live to make it to the next expansion. we are in a current extinction event (holocene), and have started to worry about an asteroid or some such wiping us out.

      even that worry over our own 'extinction' bumps up against any number of religious beliefs, even if they seem to have an unrealistic timescale of tens of years, when any historical events have been separated by millions of years

      so, gimmee something here, how do you discuss geologic events when people seem so driven to think in terms of their own lifespans?

      --
      Wherever You Go, There You Are
    4. Re:Wait, what? by Black+Parrot · · Score: 3, Funny

      I'm confused. So they were on the Ark or what?

      Why do you think they call them 'Archean'?

      --
      Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
    5. Re:Wait, what? by garyisabusyguy · · Score: 1

      yeah, my parents always went for the whole, 'So, how do you know that a billion years isn't a "day" for God?' thing and sent me on my way. they were teachers (remain involved with religion) and never faced any of the conflict that the fundamentalists being to the table

      so, what drives the desire to hold a belief in front of so much evidence to the contrary?

      --
      Wherever You Go, There You Are
    6. Re:Wait, what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm confused. So they were on the Ark or what?

      Yes, the "B" Ark.

    7. Re:Wait, what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm confused. So they were on the Ark or what?

      No, you're making a joke about the sort of myths that piss people off.

      The correct myth about the Oxygen Catastrophe of 2.5-2.8 Ga ago, of course, is the one recorded in the sci-fi short story written on behalf of my preferred cult: Bob and the Oxygen Wars :)

    8. Re:Wait, what? by ColdWetDog · · Score: 5, Funny

      so, gimmee something here, how do you discuss geologic events when people seem so driven to think in terms of their own lifespans?

      Very, very slowly.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    9. Re:Wait, what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      so, gimmee something here, how do you discuss geologic events when people seem so driven to think in terms of their own lifespans?

      WIth such people, my advice is to simply change the topic to something more relevant to them... like "Obama's health care plans" or "Assange and how this egotistic douche bag tries to avoid the extradition and the execution sentence that any cyber-terrorist is so rightfuly entitled"... things like that, you know?

    10. Re:Wait, what? by ralphdaugherty · · Score: 3, Interesting

      what I find interesting about the article is the layering effect of life. how the anerobic life got pushed out by the oxygen breathers and relegated to living in the cracks. good for us, but an extinction event for them. there have been many big extinctions, and each allowed some hardier form of live to make it to the next expansion. we are in a current extinction event (holocene), and have started to worry about an asteroid or some such wiping us out.

      even that worry over our own 'extinction' bumps up against any number of religious beliefs, even if they seem to have an unrealistic timescale of tens of years, when any historical events have been separated by millions of years.

      I'm a programmer but just happen to be reading Nick Lane's books on this. If I get something wrong please biologists jump in and correct me. :)

      I only read a page or two a day (first "Oxygen", and now "Power, Sex, Suicide" - and yes, that's all based on oxygen). But the revelation I had yesterday was that anaerobic bacteria essentially drown in oxygen, just as we would suffocate with too little oxygen, which by the way is not that much below the historic percentage of atmosphere for last several hundred million years of 21%. Dropping below about 15% of atmosphere would kill all oxygen breathing life.

      So anaerobic life which ruled the world didn't get pushed out by oxygen breathing life, it got pushed "out", or down into stagnant places rather, by oxygen, which was created by photosynthesis. Almost all the oxygen over .1% of the atmosphere was created by photosynthesis in plant life.

      And what became of that anaerobic life in the sea with .1% oxygen? It exists to this day in our cells, which are in the same salt water of the sea in our body and exposed to .1% oxygen delivered by hameoglobin in the blood. It also exists in our intestines among other places with little oxygen, such as bottoms of swamps.

      The kicker? People talk of evolution and they have no idea. All current life was set in place nearly three billion years ago. Every complex thing you ever read about in the human body cells is in every cell of every life form for almost three billion years.

      DNA, RNA, mitochondria, conversion of glucose to storage of energy in ATP molecules using an extremely complex 12 step process, manufacture of the same proteins with ribosomes, fermentation to create energy without even that .1% of atmosphere oxygen when necessary (such as our muscles which fermentation kicks in when needed and creates a byproduct lactic acid which eventually causes cramps), respiration using haemin which is haemoglobin in blood and clorophyll in plants, everything was set almost three billion years ago.

      Nothing has evolved, it has only specialized.

      The bigger question is how this complex machinery of life developed in the first billion years of Earth amidst massive meteor impacts. People can call it what they want, but knowing that all life that has ever existed has existed essentially unchanged from three billion years ago defies explanation of "evolving" in first one to two billion years to the amazing complexity of how cells work and then staying pat for almost three billion years and only losing capabilities, not gaining new and more complex capabilities as one assumes from casual science study and reading.

      I am not religious and do not consider religious arguments against evolution as anything but pedantic handwaving, but what we call evolution is really rather trivial specialization implemented by the ancient common embryo genes.

      I could go on and I'm probably leaving out even more stuff that took my breath away when I read it but people have no idea the ancient universality of all life forms from the same unbelievably complex cell from three billion years ago.

        rd

    11. Re:Wait, what? by globaljustin · · Score: 2

      so, gimmee something here, how do you discuss geologic events when people seem so driven to think in terms of their own lifespans?

      I can help. I am the product of 18 years of Christian fundamentalist education, from Kinder through undergrad.

      Focus on the processes and what happened and not on how you got there...say "over time" and just be as general as possible. Really it's sad that it's come to this, but just say "millions/billions of years ago" as little as possible.

      The best you can realistically expect from a TRUE creationist is "how do they know that?" and "how does X geological or celestial event affect Y?" and that's OK. It's a *conversation* instead of an argument. I've learned this is 'victory' when dealing with close-minded, under educated people.

      --
      Thank you Dave Raggett
    12. Re:Wait, what? by c6gunner · · Score: 2

      Nothing needs to drive it - they just ignore or explain away the evidence. Humans are inherently irrational, and we're very slow to change our minds about even mundane matters, let alone something which has been drilled into us since childhood and which heavily influences how we interact with those around us. The big surprise isn't that so many people continue to believe in nonsensical superstitious claims - it's that so many have managed to find their way out of it.

    13. Re:Wait, what? by M.+Baranczak · · Score: 1

      And the correct response is: If the Book of Genesis re-defines a common word like "day" to mean something completely different, then how can you trust anything else in it?

    14. Re:Wait, what? by jfengel · · Score: 1

      It's a *conversation* instead of an argument.

      Is it? Or is it just managing to avoid an argument by saying essentially nothing at all?

      Maybe it's just a matter of different scale calibration, but a victory of that kind isn't worth the time I'd be spending on it. I'd rather just be silent. It's boring, but I'd take boring over the results of pushing the "crazy" button. And you ALWAYS end up pushing the crazy button sooner or later, unless you avoid the topic altogether.

      (Or maybe you're just better at this game than I am.)

    15. Re:Wait, what? by Lloyd_Bryant · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Nothing has evolved, it has only specialized.

      The bigger question is how this complex machinery of life developed in the first billion years of Earth amidst massive meteor impacts. People can call it what they want, but knowing that all life that has ever existed has existed essentially unchanged from three billion years ago defies explanation of "evolving" in first one to two billion years to the amazing complexity of how cells work and then staying pat for almost three billion years and only losing capabilities, not gaining new and more complex capabilities as one assumes from casual science study and reading.

      Why would you expect the "gaining of new and more complex capabilities"? Evolution is not oriented towards perfection. It's oriented towards "good enough". So it's quite possible that all those 3 billion year old mechanisms have been "good enough" to meet all conditions encountered since then, in which case unless the "new and more complex capability" provided a substantial survival advantage, it won't have become commonplace. And since "more complex" generally means "more expensive in terms of energy consumption", any mutations in that direction could quite likely have been a survival *disadvantage*.

      --
      Don't tell me to get a life. I had one once. It sucked.
    16. Re:Wait, what? by pinkushun · · Score: 1
    17. Re:Wait, what? by Black+Parrot · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The bigger question is how this complex machinery of life developed in the first billion years of Earth amidst massive meteor impacts. People can call it what they want, but knowing that all life that has ever existed has existed essentially unchanged from three billion years ago defies explanation of "evolving" in first one to two billion years to the amazing complexity of how cells work and then staying pat for almost three billion years and only losing capabilities, not gaining new and more complex capabilities as one assumes from casual science study and reading.

      a) How long should we have expected that first billion years of evolution to take?

      b) You should rephrase "not gaining new and more complex capabilities" to say "at the cellular level". At higher levels, progress has been phenomenal. (How much smarter are you than a single-cell organism?)

      The origin of cellular machinery is indeed impressive, but unfortunately "I can't believe it could happen by natural causes in a billion years" tells us a little about the speaker's beliefs, and nothing at all about what actually happened.

      As to why not much new has been added to that machinery since, maybe we have more basis for speculation. Competition from all-new "designs" is probably impossible, because the necessary building blocks would probably be oxidized, or digested by current organisms, before it could bootstrap itself into a new cell type. For variants on what we have, evolution is not a reversible process, so we can't expect cells to undo part of their history and try something else, any more than birds would evolve back into dinosaurs and go then forward again down a different path.

      So we're probably stuck with consideration of add-ons to the current machinery. But there's no guarantee that something nifty would happen in that regard within any bounded period of time. Evolution doesn't provide organisms with things just because they are needed or would be useful. Possibly cellular evolution has reached a "local maximum" on the fitness landscape, from which there is no easy jump to something better.

      And who knows... some of the past jumps may not have been particularly easy either, but merely fortuitous one-time events.

      And evolution of macroscopic organisms has certainly gotten a lot of mileage out of the existing cellular machinery. Maybe it's good enough?

      --
      Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
    18. Re:Wait, what? by ralphdaugherty · · Score: 1

      And since "more complex" generally means "more expensive in terms of energy consumption", any mutations in that direction could quite likely have been a survival *disadvantage*.

      I agree with that, but what I'm saying is that the common perception of evolution is that life gets more complex by "evolving" but the most complex machinery of cells has stayed unchanged for three billion years, and that all life forms, from bacteria to yeast to fungus to plants to animals have the same cell machinery, the stuff we just figured out like the DNA helix just a few decades ago.

      I don't think very many people have any idea everything has the same cellular basis of life for past three billion years, every life form that ever existed. Maybe biologists just operate knowing this but the rest of us have no idea. I just read it myself in the past month, and I've read a lot of science in my lifetime.

        rd

    19. Re:Wait, what? by whereiswaldo · · Score: 2

      so, what drives the desire to hold a belief in front of so much evidence to the contrary?

      Well, I go to church regularly and I'll readily admit I'm not completely convinced of all of this stuff being true. However, the people at my baptist church really do care about others and I do, too. They've really touched my heart. I know every church is different and some (probably many, especially catholic) really turn me off with the condescending, "you're a sinner since birth" brain washing) so YMMV.

      If you find a good church like I did and put your heart into it, suspending your scepticism (it's not easy), you just may feel the power of faith. It's an amazing feeling, a power I can't deny washing over me. Maybe you guys can think of a scientific name for it. But for now I am content in attending church, "rebooting" my soul every week and casting off doubts, hatred, etc... The people at my church really believe what they are preaching. They don't beg people for money... they pray about it. They pray about everything they need as a ministry. They pray for others in need. It's really refreshing.

      If I am wrong about these beliefs, then I will one day die and go into the soil and nothing more will happen. If I am right, I will have eternal life in heaven. And while I am living, my life is enriched by being with people who care about one another - about me - and put their 100% out there every time I see them. That's more than I can say for a hell of a lot of people. So as you can see, I have nothing to lose by believing.

      As far as evolution goes, I think a God that doesn't take into account changing environmental conditions isn't a very smart God. So evolution and creationism can coexist, at least in my view. I mean, think about it, everything had to originate from something, right? God, or whatever you want to visualize, has to ultimately create all this, in some dimension/multiverse/etc... Who created time? Imagining there's some power higher than us just seems obvious.

    20. Re:Wait, what? by Artifakt · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Except the original Hebrew word didn't mean a day, and was often used in other writings to mean an indeterminate period. If you're asking how you can trust a poor translation job, you may be on to something, but the original text didn't use the English word 'day' at all, let alone redefine it.
      Alternately, some people claim the account in Genesis is metaphorical. Now I'm not arguing that it definitely is or isn't, but your argument seems to be that if it is metaphorical, it's untrustworthy in some absolute sense. I.e. "Carl Sagan used a metaphor of the Milky Way as the Backbone of Night in Cosmos, so how can we trust anything else in Cosmos?" Or maybe you're going as far as "The discoverer of the Benzine ring used a metaphor of a snake devouring its tail to describe it, so how can we trust anything in organic chemistry?".

      --
      Who is John Cabal?
    21. Re:Wait, what? by Gogogoch · · Score: 5, Informative

      "All current life was set in place nearly three billion years ago". Absolutely not - your view of the history of biology is very warped. Study more biology itself to realize what 'current life' actually looks like. Some important points:

      1.7~2 Billion years ago: probable endosymbiosis of prokaryote into eurkaryotic cells, forming mitochonria. Much later than the 3 billion years you suggest, and an absolutely vital stage in the evolution of multicellular life. In fact, it is suggested that the emergence of mitrochondria is why we are here to day - without these powerhouses single-celled life did not have enough available energy to form multi-cellular organisms.

      1~1.3 Billions years ago: complex multi-cellular life: While the diversity, resilience, and ubiquity of single-celled life is amazing, I find complex multi-celled life much more astonishing. That colonies of cells can cooperate, specialise and form complex life is a wonderful achievement of evolution. Of course, it took a mind-boggling amount of time. Still, a significant step the results of which are quite distinct from life of 3 billions years ago. So your assertion is again inadequate.

      ~600 million years: emergence of the first neuron.

      ~580 million years: nerves and muscles, working together; first eyes

      ~550 million years: brains

      And so the list goes on. Perhaps a significant development every 10-20 million years.

      ~540 million years: hearts and circulatory systems

      There is a giant change from single-celled life to cats, dogs, and humans. What you should be saying is that, as a programmer, you are amazed that all life on Earth has the same genetic code - that the 3 base-pair codon is almost universal in every cell and organism on the plant. I suppose I do like you perspective though, when you look at a yeast cell, an oak tree, and a human and realise they are all related, all cousins, all derived from an evolutionary chain billions of years in the making.

    22. Re:Wait, what? by Graff · · Score: 5, Informative

      I only read a page or two a day (first "Oxygen", and now "Power, Sex, Suicide" - and yes, that's all based on oxygen). But the revelation I had yesterday was that anaerobic bacteria essentially drown in oxygen, just as we would suffocate with too little oxygen

      They don't "drown" in oxygen. Oxygen is a highly reactive substance, cut an apple and it browns fairly rapidly, expose iron to air and it will rust, those chemical hand warmers take oxygen from the air in order to produce heat. Some organisms, called obligate anaerobes, can't tolerate an environment with high oxygen content because it poisons them by destroying enzymes and interfering with key biological pathways in those organisms.

      When organisms came about that produced large amounts of oxygen (a byproduct of photosynthesis, as well as other reducing processes) they basically polluted the environment by producing so much oxygen. This oxygen "pollution" poisoned most of the organisms of the time until some evolved ways to break down and even use the oxygen. Once this happened there was an explosion of oxygen-using organisms. It turns out that since oxygen is so reactive it makes a great agent to "burn" (oxidize) other materials and produce energy.

      However, there are many anaerobes that can survive in an oxygen environment - some can even use a little of the oxygen when it's available. There's no hard and fast cutoff of how much oxygen is too much or too little. As levels rise there will be more wildfires and the less oxygen-tolerant organisms will struggle, as levels fall the more oxygen-reliant organisms will have problems. A partial pressure for oxygen of 0.15 kPa (15% at STP - standard temperature & pressure) will certainly cause a lot of problems for many oxygen-reliant organisms.

    23. Re:Wait, what? by ralphdaugherty · · Score: 0

      a) How long should we have expected that first billion years of evolution to take?

      You misunderstand my point. My point was that a large list of extremely complex cellular operations is known to exist three billion years ago and hasn't changed since in every life form that ever existed. That is was perhaps optimal at that point, or that a billion years is a long time, isn't the point. The point is that this is extremely complex biochemical machinery that is mind boggling to even imagine how this somehow came together.

      I am more inclined to think it came from space than anything.

      b) You should rephrase "not gaining new and more complex capabilities" to say "at the cellular level". At higher levels, progress has been phenomenal. (How much smarter are you than a single-cell organism?)

      Yes, but every one of those cells in that phenomenal progress are the same workings as three billion years ago. Have groups of cells specialized to greater macro capabilities? Yes. But even there the basis are in much more primitive life forms. My point is people see the more complex macro capabilities and don't realize that it all operates unchanged in every life form for three billion years, and we have no idea how those incredibly genius mechanisms somehow came together to make life what it is.

      The origin of cellular machinery is indeed impressive, but unfortunately "I can't believe it could happen by natural causes in a billion years" tells us a little about the speaker's beliefs, and nothing at all about what actually happened.

      well it is my opinion. "I can't believe it" uses the word belief, doesn't it. Also I said I was not religious and have no beliefs. My internet record is long and well documented, and when I say something you can bank on it.

      As to why not much new has been added to that machinery since, maybe we have more basis for speculation. Competition from all-new "designs" is probably impossible, because the necessary building blocks would probably be oxidized, or digested by current organisms, before it could bootstrap itself into a new cell type. For variants on what we have, evolution is not a reversible process, so we can't expect cells to undo part of their history and try something else, any more than birds would evolve back into dinosaurs and go then forward again down a different path.

      That something that complex, and by complex I mean that people are still trying to figure out how this stuff works, became solid and fundamentally unchanged three billion years ago is undeniable. I personally can't believe that complexity could even sort itself together from various biochemical variants, then at the furthest point that we can gain fossil records and perform genetic analysis, became optimal and all this amazing coming together just stopped for three billion years apparently because nothing more was helpful.

      So we're probably stuck with consideration of add-ons to the current machinery. But there's no guarantee that something nifty would happen in that regard within any bounded period of time. Evolution doesn't provide organisms with things just because they are needed or would be useful. Possibly cellular evolution has reached a "local maximum" on the fitness landscape, from which there is no easy jump to something better.

      I believe there is feedback to embryo development in the same channel that instincts and behavior are inherited, but I don't know what that process is and obviously no one else does either. but it's of great interest to me and that's why I'm doing this reading. That the feedback impacts structural development in the embryo level development seems clear. Cellular mechanisms are lost, and haemoglobin and clorophyll are specializations that impact the cellular operations, and the operations do vary, such as sulphur reducing, etc. But they are all variations on a complexity that I assure you people think came about later, not three billion years ago.

      And who knows... some of the past jumps may not have

    24. Re:Wait, what? by ralphdaugherty · · Score: 0

      "All current life was set in place nearly three billion years ago". Absolutely not - your view of the history of biology is very warped. Study more biology itself to realize what 'current life' actually looks like.

      well I am reading on biology, and I did ask biologists to correct me if I was wrong, but I would not say between 2.1 billion and 2.7 billion years for eukarytes instead of saying nearly three billion years is warped.

      Also I clearly denoted that the basis of life I was referring to was the unchanged cellular mechanisms universally shared by life for those nearly three billion years.

        rd

    25. Re:Wait, what? by ralphdaugherty · · Score: 2

      1.7~2 Billion years ago: probable endosymbiosis of prokaryote into eurkaryotic cells, forming mitochonria.

      actually mitochondria enabled the formation of eukarytes.

    26. Re:Wait, what? by ralphdaugherty · · Score: 1

      They don't "drown" in oxygen.

      I said essentially drown. The point was that oxygen using life didn't crowd out anaerobic life, the oxygen produced by clorophyll based life forced it to places with still no oxygen or killed it. If drowning doesn't do it for you as an analogy instead of disrupted enzyme production, then I'm glad everyone was able to see the technically correct explanation.

      My point was made and clear to readers however. I was responding to the oxygen using forcing out anaerobic life.

      There's no hard and fast cutoff of how much oxygen is too much or too little.

      There actually is. Below 15%,as you point out at the end, is too little to support oxygen breathing life. I guess will cause problems is one way of putting it.

      As levels rise there will be more wildfires and the less oxygen-tolerant organisms will struggle, as levels fall the more oxygen-reliant organisms will have problems.

      The study this statement is based on has some problems. Your statement has been commonly accepted scientific lore but the actual forests bursting into flame thing is based on one experiment with pieces of paper of various wetness.

      Oxygen levels are believed to have been at 35% during dinosaurs and other gigantic life such as dragonflies, etc.

        rd

    27. Re:Wait, what? by Urkki · · Score: 1

      Nothing has evolved, it has only specialized.

      So... Just as an example, how many homeobox genes were around back then, and doing the functions they do now?

      I sure hope you're not saying you think evolution means new genes popping out of nothingness... Because of course every gene in existence can be traced back to a few, possibly even just one, orignal gene (or soup of short pieces of xNA, or whatever the first successful drop of self-replicating chemical soup was like). So in a sense nothing new has appeared since then, it has been just this original xNA specializing... But this specialization certainly is evolution.

    28. Re:Wait, what? by Black+Parrot · · Score: 1

      There is actually nothing in the biblical text that precludes evolution all all the prior lifeforms.

      The truth is, there's nothing in "literal" interpretation of the Bible that precludes anything. For example, some biblical literalists reject the big bang because it is so obviously in conflict with Genesis; others say that the recent discovery of the big bang proves that the writers of Genesis had an inside source of information, since the science so obviously confirms the text.

      The nicest thing about literal interpretations of the text is that you have so many to choose from.

      --
      Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
    29. Re:Wait, what? by h00manist · · Score: 1

      how do you discuss geologic events when people seem so driven to think in terms of their own lifespans?

      You have to look for and find interested people first. That's what language skills are for, without communicating well we can't get very much done.

      --
      Build your own energy sources from scratch. http://otherpower.com/
    30. Re:Wait, what? by Marcx77 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The point is that this is extremely complex biochemical machinery that is mind boggling to even imagine how this somehow came together.

      I am more inclined to think it came from space than anything.

      How would that make it less mind-boggling? It just relocates the problem. Does it somehow make more sense to think that life had a few billion more years to evolve on some other planet than just 1.5 billion years here on earth? I'm not trying to be pedantic here, I'm genuinely curious as to how you'd think "space" is a better explanation...

    31. Re:Wait, what? by apparently · · Score: 0

      Alternately, some people claim the account in Genesis is metaphorical. Now I'm not arguing that it definitely is or isn't, but your argument seems to be that if it is metaphorical, it's untrustworthy in some absolute sense.

      The book is purported to be the word of god; why is god speaking in metaphor? Why was man created too stupid to comprehend the true creation story? Where's the magic decoder ring that tells us which of the other stories are metaphor and which are not (those that purport to describe a "chosen" race; those that accept slavery as a moral act; those that enforce homophobia as a commandment)? And even as a metaphor, why is Genesis such a poor and internally inconsistent metaphor: man is eternally punished for committing an act of evil at a time in which the story tells us that man literally doesn't have the capacity to understand evil; why is the Serpent making the rounds in the Garden of Eden, how is it "paradise" if el Diablo is roaming around being all "what's up, shitheads?" Why is the omnipotent creator unaware of what's about to unfold?

    32. Re:Wait, what? by imakemusic · · Score: 1

      If I am wrong about these beliefs, then I will one day die and go into the soil and nothing more will happen.

      Unless the Hindus or Buddhists are right, in which case you will be reborn.

      Or if the Catholics are right, you'll be going to hell.

      Or if the Jews or Muslims are right, in which case...I'm not even sure what happens but I can't imagine it will be pleasant.

      But then again none of the above take too kindly to Atheists so you're probably safest betting on one of them...

      --
      Brain surgery - it's not rocket science!
    33. Re:Wait, what? by georgeb · · Score: 1

      As far as evolution goes, I think a God that doesn't take into account changing environmental conditions isn't a very smart God. So evolution and creationism can coexist, at least in my view.

      If you redefine the creationist "theory" then yes, you probably can accommodate both. However this is not what creationists claim.

      For the record, most christians are not creationists. Even the catholic church accepts evolution as a fact.

      I mean, think about it, everything had to originate from something, right?

      You cannot postulate that and immediately create an exceptional clause for your god. Either everything had to come from something, therefore time is infinite and the fundamentals of matter and energy have always existed, or you accept that something can arise out of nothing, in which case it's either one or more creator gods or (you can cut out the middle man here) the whole universe.

      If you cannot see the problem here, then don't worry. This should not concern your everyday life. But also take this into account: if you were to prove by logic alone that at least one god has to exist (which you did not prove, trust me), that does not say anything about the nature of that god, let alone that it's your god and not one of the hindu gods, greek gods, etc. Also doesn't prove anything about it's morality, it's intent (or even capacity for intent), it's concern with everyday life of humans.

      In the everlasting words of Mr. Hitchens, you still got all your work ahead of you.

      But then again, why should anyone be concerned with proving a god's existence in a rational, logical matter, when they've got faith to replace that?

      Imagining there's some power higher than us just seems obvious.

      Imagining the sun goes round the earth just seemed obvious to the pope too. Do you take your obviousness over scientific evidence with all your everyday experiences? Sometimes common sense is not as trustworthy as people take it to be.

    34. Re:Wait, what? by Darkman,+Walkin+Dude · · Score: 1

      really, creationism is the 'elephant in the room' whenever you start talking about the fossil record

      No, its not.

    35. Re:Wait, what? by dargaud · · Score: 1

      I had the same remarks about the evolution of life. The way I see it is that the first billion years wrote the lib and toolkits, to put it in computer terms. They were rewritten and modified many times by extreme environmental pressure like whole-Earth glaciations, supervolcanoes, oxygen catastrophe, etc... But all life basically looked the same (simple cells) because the tollkits weren't developped enough yet.
      Once the lib/toolkit of genes got 'good enough' there was a big radiation of phenotypes. But now you have complex organisms which all have the same library of code to run stuff under the hood (like the haemin you quote), but changing any of this base code would break everything, that's why this part doesn't change. Less important stuff does, hence I think your "Nothing has evolved, it has only specialized" is basically correct.

      --
      Non-Linux Penguins ?
    36. Re:Wait, what? by ralphdaugherty · · Score: 1

      Because of course every gene in existence can be traced back to a few, possibly even just one, orignal gene (or soup of short pieces of xNA, or whatever the first successful drop of self-replicating chemical soup was like).

      Had I not just read in depth enough to know how mistaken you are, I would have believed this statement from you. It represents the increasing complexity I said most people understand to have occurred.

      In actuality, the complex functionality and genes that enable it are nearly unchanged. Nothing like what you portray here.

    37. Re:Wait, what? by dreamchaser · · Score: 1

      I don't think you (or any of us for that matter) have any comprehension of how long a billion years is, and it certainly is germane to your points. It's such a long time that you cannot really fathom it other than as an abstract number. The reason so much of what evolved in that first billion years in terms of cellular processes is still around is because it works. When something works it's propagated by evolution and combined in increasingly complex ways.

      I still haven't figured out if you're just an artful troll or if you just can't grasp the concept. Either way nothing in your arguments is very compelling. I see your point but I think you just aren't grasping things quite right.

    38. Re:Wait, what? by ralphdaugherty · · Score: 1

      How would that make it less mind-boggling? It just relocates the problem. Does it somehow make more sense to think that life had a few billion more years to evolve on some other planet than just 1.5 billion years here on earth? I'm not trying to be pedantic here, I'm genuinely curious as to how you'd think "space" is a better explanation...

      It means it provides for more possibilities of being engineered than initially coming together on its own in the initial anaroebic world. By it I mean the long list of extremely complex biochemical cellular mechanisms that all life work on.

      What are those possibilities? I don't know. But I'm having a problem seeing this amazingly complex machinery fall together from nothing. We laymen can understand increasing complexity. That the most complex of all hasn't changed for billions of years but just has been that way as far back as we can determine is even harder to understand and accept than gradually increasing complexity over time.

    39. Re:Wait, what? by Urkki · · Score: 1

      Because of course every gene in existence can be traced back to a few, possibly even just one, orignal gene (or soup of short pieces of xNA, or whatever the first successful drop of self-replicating chemical soup was like).

      Had I not just read in depth enough to know how mistaken you are, I would have believed this statement from you. It represents the increasing complexity I said most people understand to have occurred.

      In actuality, the complex functionality and genes that enable it are nearly unchanged. Nothing like what you portray here.

      Can you give an example of such an unchanged gene? Some genes related to DNA handling proteins should be a good example. How unchanged they really are between archae, bacteria and a few lines of eukaroytes? Any references?

      Because I'm under the impression, that even though the genes work pretty much the same (as they have to, since chemical stucture of DNA and the information coding are the same), the DNA sequences have actually changed quite a bit, actually about as much as it could have changed without breaking the functionality.

      If you have an online link to something which discusses the difference of genes doing identical functions in archae, bacteria and eukaryotes, and includes actual quantative data about the difference, I'd be thrilled.

    40. Re:Wait, what? by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      The fascinating thing is that the anerobic life were the ones that actually produced the oxygen; they changed the environment in such a way that the earth was uninhabitable to them. They produced their own downfall.

    41. Re:Wait, what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You give programmers a bad name.

    42. Re:Wait, what? by garyisabusyguy · · Score: 2

      Engineered???

      whoa buddy, it is a long way from recognizing that there are some significant developments in the chemistry of life (over the course of hundreds of millions of years) and jumping to the conclusion that there must have been some 'engineered' step that created an extremely complex reaction all at once.

      do you like science fiction? I do most of the time, however the stories that really piss me off and make me want to rip up a few books, are they ones with 'shaggy dog' endings.

      you know, where everything is tossed in the air and the author pulls together some simple solution that solves everybody's problems, answers all questions and gives the author an easy way out of whatever mess the story line had become.

      to me it seemed like the author was being lazy and just bailed out on finishing the story that I had been stupid enough to read. all this talk of life from space and engineering just stinks to me of another shaggy dog ending put together by people that are just too damn lazy to really figure something out and who just want to stick their mark on it before they go to fuck up some other complex field of study

      you say you're a programmer... how do you feel when you are using some software that is unstable, and the vendor just tells you to allocate more memory and reboot the machine on a regular basis? do you feel like they are really doing their job, or just glossing over the hard stuff with a simple solution? well, that's how I feel about intelligent design, life from space etc... pure mental laziness

      --
      Wherever You Go, There You Are
    43. Re:Wait, what? by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      The book is purported to be the word of god; why is god speaking in metaphor?

      You expect me to be able to determine the motives of a being powerful enough to create a universe? Note that his son often used parables.

      Why was man created too stupid to comprehend the true creation story?

      Why were you too stupid to understand the difference between stupidity and ignorance? Do you think Galleleo was stupid because he didn't know about quarks and gluons? Sheesh...

    44. Re:Wait, what? by garyisabusyguy · · Score: 2

      honestly, when I read 'anaerobic' I am thinking less about modern anaerobic life forms that are involved in fermentation (some of which can even survive in an oxygen environment) and more about chemosynthetic organisms that live around volcanic vents and base their entire metabolism on hydrogen sulfide.

      these are the anaerobes of the Archean era, the ones that were killed off by the onrush of oxygen that the photosynthetic life forms brought with them and forced down into the oxygen-less cracks of the Earth

      If you can draw a direct line between chemosynthesis of hydrogen sulfide and the oxygen-based metabolism that keeps me upright, then I am all ears

      --
      Wherever You Go, There You Are
    45. Re:Wait, what? by Creedo · · Score: 1

      That the most complex of all hasn't changed for billions of years but just has been that way as far back as we can determine is even harder to understand and accept than gradually increasing complexity over time.

      Then you need to review evolutionary biology. Evolution has never stood still, and until life dies out, never will. Even at a molecular level, there is a constant state of evolutionary change(see the work of Lenski, for example). The reason you don't see much "apparent change" is that those processes are locked in and highly refined. The basic cellular design works well enough, and so is locked in somewhat by the fact that deviation is usually fatal. And it is at such a low level that is it virtually universal. So, there is no evolutionary pressure for a multi-cellular organism like an ape to develop radically different cell chemistry than that of a bacteria.

      Once that level of cellular processes had evolved, the selection pressure would have been focused on cellular specialization and organismic speciation. And that is precisely what happened, and what gives you the erroneous impression that evolution stopped at a cellular level.

      If you want a programming analogy, think of it like pipes in *nix systems. The underlying structure of pipes has been relatively stable for several decades because it works. Thus, there is no pressure to rewrite it, even though the applications built on top of it may be much more complicated and diverse now.

      --
      All that is necessary for the triumph of good is that evil men do nothing.
    46. Re:Wait, what? by garyisabusyguy · · Score: 1

      I still don't see why you would have to 'suspend skepticism' to attend a church.

      About 15 years ago I went hunting for a church that I would be comfortable taking my kids to. Found a nice one, plenty of decent people, a belief system that did not require that I turn my brain off and a real commitment to work towards making the world a better place for other people to get along in

      my son invited a couple of his little friends, who's parents had let him attend their church as well. Funny thing, these two little kids ran home and told their parents (whom btw, regularly spoke in tongues and flopped around on the ground in their own church) that our church was 'weird', resulting in them not ever being allowed to play with my son again.

      I suppose that there is an inclination to stick with the religion that you are born into, but honestly people, there are a lot of choices and it is pretty easy to find a religion that does not demand that you totally turn your brain off

      --
      Wherever You Go, There You Are
    47. Re:Wait, what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      really, creationism is the 'elephant in the room' whenever you start talking about the fossil record

      Actually, I think it's the other way around.

    48. Re:Wait, what? by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      But then again, why should anyone be concerned with proving a god's existence in a rational, logical matter, when they've got faith to replace that?

      Everyone seems to misunderstand what's meant by "faith". It isn't "have faith that God exists", it's faith as in "being faithful to your spouse."

      Once one has experienced God, one can no more disbelieve in his existance than one can disbelieve in the existance of elephants once one has seen an elephant. There is no way of proving elephants exist short of showing you an elephant, and if one is unavailable to show you, I can't prove that they exist.

      The GP doesn't have to depend on faith; he has most likely experience dthe hand of God. There is no way that he or I can convince you that we're not crazy, so there's no point in trying.

    49. Re:Wait, what? by MightyMartian · · Score: 1

      If I am wrong about these beliefs, then I will one day die and go into the soil and nothing more will happen. If I am right, I will have eternal life in heaven. And while I am living, my life is enriched by being with people who care about one another - about me - and put their 100% out there every time I see them. That's more than I can say for a hell of a lot of people. So as you can see, I have nothing to lose by believing.

      This apparently isn't a zero sum game. Apparently, according to at least some religions, believing the wrong thing, even believing some wrong things, guarantees you a passage to eternal damnation. Maybe God hates the Church you go to and will make you burn for all eternity for not picking the Mormonism or becoming a Whirling Dervish.

      As far as evolution goes, I think a God that doesn't take into account changing environmental conditions isn't a very smart God. So evolution and creationism can coexist, at least in my view. I mean, think about it, everything had to originate from something, right? God, or whatever you want to visualize, has to ultimately create all this, in some dimension/multiverse/etc... Who created time? Imagining there's some power higher than us just seems obvious.

      Some day one of you true believers is going to have to explain to me why you think causation would apply before the Universe.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    50. Re:Wait, what? by geekoid · · Score: 1

      All your concerns have been pretty much explained.
      You just haven't bothered to study up on the subject.

      You are NOT understanding what you are reading.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    51. Re:Wait, what? by ralphdaugherty · · Score: 2

      Can you give an example of such an unchanged gene? Some genes related to DNA handling proteins should be a good example. How unchanged they really are between archae, bacteria and a few lines of eukaroytes? Any references?

      Because I'm under the impression, that even though the genes work pretty much the same (as they have to, since chemical stucture of DNA and the information coding are the same), the DNA sequences have actually changed quite a bit, actually about as much as it could have changed without breaking the functionality.

      If you have an online link to something which discusses the difference of genes doing identical functions in archae, bacteria and eukaryotes, and includes actual quantative data about the difference, I'd be thrilled.

      I'll have to look tonight for one of the specific things in commonality I've been reading about but my initial response is that unchanged and changed as much as possible without breaking functionality is the same thing. By unchanged I mean unchanged functionality.

      I don't have any online links. What I've been reading are the Nick Lane books I mentioned in an earlier link. I have purchased a large library of technical books on the subject but was reading Nick Lane's first.

      Of course there has been drift in the DNA sequences of letter errors which as you know is used to approximate length of time between two samples. But far more than the proteins coded for is the very process itself of DNA, RNA, manufacture of proteins, etc. which are casually accepted that this complex cellular machinery, which is mind boggling in how sophisticated it is, was in place as far back as we can obtain fossils, nearly three billion years ago, and has remained unchanged to this day yet with evolution we talk about and see the changes that took place with everything constructed of the cells.

      That the cells are so sophisticated we still don't know much about how they work and so perfect they have made up all life in ever changing forms for over two billion years without changing themselves I find hard to believe can be accepted so casually. My original point was that very few people understand that this is what has happened. The universality of life based on the same cell workings from the beginning of time is just not something that we are exposed to.

        rd

    52. Re:Wait, what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      really, creationism is the 'elephant in the room' whenever you start talking about the fossil record

      Really more of the 'elephant standing outside in the rain scratching on the door and whimpering to be let in' but YMMV.

    53. Re:Wait, what? by ralphdaugherty · · Score: 1

      honestly, when I read 'anaerobic' I am thinking less about modern anaerobic life forms that are involved in fermentation (some of which can even survive in an oxygen environment) and more about chemosynthetic organisms that live around volcanic vents and base their entire metabolism on hydrogen sulfide.

      these are the anaerobes of the Archean era, the ones that were killed off by the onrush of oxygen that the photosynthetic life forms brought with them and forced down into the oxygen-less cracks of the Earth

      If you can draw a direct line between chemosynthesis of hydrogen sulfide and the oxygen-based metabolism that keeps me upright, then I am all ears.

      I will give this a careful response tonight, but "modern" anaerobic life is ancient anaerobic life. That is what I mean by unchanged. I will post what I am reading about the commonality of fermentation, sulphide reducing, and oxygen respiration later when I get a chance to review it again. Also IIRC the oxygen respiration was initially there to protect the anaerobic from oxygen. The theories on how all this came about are fascinating.

        rd

    54. Re:Wait, what? by Creedo · · Score: 1

      Once one has experienced being abducted by aliens, one can no more disbelieve in their existence than one can disbelieve in the existence of elephants once one has seen an elephant.

      Once one has experienced being reincarnated, one can no more disbelieve in reincarnation than one can disbelieve in the existence of elephants once one has seen an elephant.

      Once one has experienced the burning of the bosom, one can no more disbelieve in the book of Mormon than one can disbelieve in the existence of elephants once one has seen an elephant.

      Do you see a pattern developing yet? The fact that you had a private experience is indicative of exactly nothing, proves nothing and is of no use in convincing rational people of your experience. Many person locked in psych wards can claim that much. All you've done here is acknowledge that your testimony is useless.

      --
      All that is necessary for the triumph of good is that evil men do nothing.
    55. Re:Wait, what? by Creedo · · Score: 1

      I still don't see why you would have to 'suspend skepticism' to attend a church.

      About 15 years ago I went hunting for a church that I would be comfortable taking my kids to.

      I would say that that is why you don't see it. You already appear to have done it. Why were you "hunting for a church" to begin with?

      Found a nice one, plenty of decent people, a belief system that did not require that I turn my brain off and a real commitment to work towards making the world a better place for other people to get along in

      Really? So you found a church which did not make any supernatural claims? I'm curious, which church? Even the Unitarians around here accept a lot of supernatural weirdness, though I know of non-believers who attend for various reasons.

      my son invited a couple of his little friends, who's parents had let him attend their church as well. Funny thing, these two little kids ran home and told their parents (whom btw, regularly spoke in tongues and flopped around on the ground in their own church) that our church was 'weird', resulting in them not ever being allowed to play with my son again.

      Yes, it is always sad to see social bonds broken over something as stupid as religion.

      I suppose that there is an inclination to stick with the religion that you are born into, but honestly people, there are a lot of choices and it is pretty easy to find a religion that does not demand that you totally turn your brain off

      It's also pretty easy to live without those religions.

      --
      All that is necessary for the triumph of good is that evil men do nothing.
    56. Re:Wait, what? by bark · · Score: 1

      I think you give human kind too much credit - you think that we're so smart.

      I see a lot of this kind of language "that the cells are so sophisticated that we still don't know much ...."

      Why do you think we're so smart? What if we're actually the dumbnuts of the Earth? Heck, we still don't know much about quantum mechanics and the physical nature of the world - why should we be able to know everything there is to know about the chemical and biological underpinnings of life?

      In my opinion, it'll take at least another couple billions of years before any sentient being on Earth will come to understand how the cellular machinery came to be. When it took a few billion years to evolve, don't you think it would take at least that long to understand? When you get to 2 or 3 billion years old, then you deserve to ask that question - Why don't we get it yet?. Until then, please understand that we don't know jack about the real nature of how biological organisms are put together, and all we can do is continue to experiment, continue to learn.

    57. Re:Wait, what? by Crag · · Score: 1

      "there have been many big extinctions, and each allowed some hardier form of live to make it to the next expansion."

      That is an inaccurate way of describing the process. Each event changed the environment in which organisms competed and allowed a better-suited form of life to make it to the next expansion. That is, if the environment is one in which hardiness is not advantageous, the _less_ hardy forms of life will flourish.

      Evolution is not a process of perfection. It is a process of conforming, as a gas fills a volume.

      Imagine mapping every possible genome to a point in space. If a genome could not produce a viable organism, that point in space is solid. If there are no organisms possessing a particular genome, that point is empty. All other points contain a virtual "gas". That gas will expand to fill any empty points adjacent to it. That expansion is half of evolution. It's not seeking complexity or simplicity. It is seeking viability. The way that refinement (the second half of evolution) happens is that the gas interacts with itself through the environment. The existence of certain organisms shapes the "solid" portion of this made-up space. The openness of the "carnivore" portions of the genome space is contingent on an ample supply of "prey". In an environment where "hard" organisms have no advantage over "soft" organisms, the gas will fill the spaces of those competing volumes evenly.

      This Ars technica article references an experiment in which "E. coli can end up resistant to ciprofloxacin in about ten hours." This happened because the environment in the experiment was setup so that the survival cost of having that resistance was paid for by an abundance of food. The extra food in the poisoned side of the experimental apparatus reduced the solidness of the resistant-strain portion of the genome-space.

      Extinction events don't just test the hardiness of all current organisms. They change the viability of various genetic strategies. The events don't just wipe out the weaker organisms. They create an ecosystem in which a new strategy is favored.

      To put it another way: if it were possible to kill 90% of organisms in a stable system without changing the genetic pressures the survivors live under, the system would return to its previous state.

    58. Re:Wait, what? by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      The fact that you had a private experience is indicative of exactly nothing, proves nothing and is of no use in convincing rational people of your experience.

      Which does nothing to refute what I said. If I had been abducted by aliens, I would have a hard time believing they didn't exist. Since I have seen no space aliens you're going to have as hard a time getting me to believe in thenm as I would have trying to convince you that God exists, so there's no point in even trying.

    59. Re:Wait, what? by Monkeedude1212 · · Score: 1

      And we never say anything unless it is worth taking a long time to say.

    60. Re:Wait, what? by HiThere · · Score: 1

      Yeah. People have trouble with wrapping their heads around evolution.

      Most change is detrimental. Most changes don't survive.

      Some changes are advantageous in particular environments. These will tend to survive. Then the environment in which they lives changes, and they'll be wiped out.

      So it's beneficial if you can come up with a way to insulate yourself from changes in the environment. But if it's too expensive, then it will be detrimental, and it won't survive.

      Evolution is a process of tripination. (Decimation is killing one out of ten, so I coined tripination to mean killing one out of three. It still understates the case.) Changes happen and are killed off. The occasional survivor is what we see. And chance plays a large role in two places. First chance determines which mutations, out of all those that are currently viable, actually occur. Secondly chance plays a large role in selecting among those candidates while there are still only a few copies of a change. (See "The law of large numbers" and probability theory.)

      People aren't good at selecting gambling odds, either, for similar reasons. They can't wrap their heads around probability. Evolution is worse, though, because you're dealing with cumulative change and death. Both of those are concepts that people don't deal well with.

      But arguing against "The popular concept of evolution" isn't arguing against evolution, and shouldn't be framed as such. Changing the name wouldn't help, as people have a hard time understanding the ideas, and if they are afraid of death they'll likely just refuse to think about it.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    61. Re:Wait, what? by HiThere · · Score: 1

      There's no reason to think that it didn't come from space. We know that complex organic molecules are synthesized in the dust clouds. Now the question is *what* came from space?

      When I was a teenager I came up with what I called the "cosmic garbageman" theory for the evolution of life. Picnickers leaving garbage behind. There's no reason to believe it didn't happen, but it doesn't seem to be a necessary precondition.

      Then there's panspermia. Another idea that's vaguely plausible if you believe that "spontaneous creation" is too unlikely. This only requires life to develop a civilization once in a galaxy. It's possible. I don't think it's the way to bet, but there's no proof that it didn't happen that way. (That would require finding life somewhere else that had a radically different underpinning in a similar environment. And even that could be handled if you presume two eco-system-civilizations launching spores into space. We could probably do it now if we felt like it.

      These are ways of handling the problem if you feel that life is too unlikely. But I don't feel any need to adopt them. They seem like excess baggage.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    62. Re:Wait, what? by HiThere · · Score: 1

      While I agree entirely with what you say, I feel that you make one major mistake.

      "The kinddom of god is within you"

      Try taking that literally. LITERALLY.

      I have had such an experience as I believe you are describing. I have had it several times in various different circumstances. Once at a Wicca ceremony, once immediately after an intense encounter. (Don't know quite how to describe it. It was a splinter group off of EST related to the rebirthing movement.) A few other times.

      My conclusion is that the entities described are real, but not external. That they are a part of the mechanism of the mind, and are probably related to the psychoid processes that C.G. Jung called Archetypes. And that many of them are pre-human. (There isn't just one, but it also isn't possible to draw clear boundaries around them. Think of them as activations of sections of the neural net that is the brain that normally aren't made consciously accessible.)

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    63. Re:Wait, what? by Creedo · · Score: 1

      Which does nothing to refute what I said.

      There is nothing to refute. You didn't bring anything to the table aside from an ambiguous personal claim.

      If I had been abducted by aliens, I would have a hard time believing they didn't exist. Since I have seen no space aliens you're going to have as hard a time getting me to believe in thenm as I would have trying to convince you that God exists, so there's no point in even trying.

      Yes, it is very hard to disabuse people of irrational beliefs. It is remarkable how much this disorder matches your description of faith.

      --
      All that is necessary for the triumph of good is that evil men do nothing.
    64. Re:Wait, what? by Graff · · Score: 1

      I said essentially drown. The point was that oxygen using life didn't crowd out anaerobic life, the oxygen produced by clorophyll based life forced it to places with still no oxygen or killed it. If drowning doesn't do it for you as an analogy instead of disrupted enzyme production, then I'm glad everyone was able to see the technically correct explanation.

      Breaking things down into simpler ideas that more people can understand is a good thing but you run into the danger of oversimplifying and creating bad analogies that serve to confuse the less technically-minded. Drowning is definitely a bad analogy, saying that too much oxygen poisoned these organism is much more accurate and just as easy to understand. It also allows people to better understand that some of the organisms might be able to tolerate some of the poison better than others.

      Your statement has been commonly accepted scientific lore but the actual forests bursting into flame thing is based on one experiment with pieces of paper of various wetness.

      It's actually based on the finding of charred remains of plant matter and correlating it with global oxygen levels:

      The diversification of Paleozoic fire systems and fluctuations in atmospheric oxygen concentration

      The forests don't just burst into flame but higher levels of oxygen do make it easier for fires to start and spread from events such as lightning strikes and volcanic eruptions. There is a TON more scientific methodology to this hypothesis than "one experiment with pieces of paper of various wetness".

      Anyways, my main point is that we have to be careful in how we summarize and simplify complicated concepts. There were a number of things in the original post that I replied to that were a little misleading, as you said yourself:

      I'm a programmer but just happen to be reading Nick Lane's books on this. If I get something wrong please biologists jump in and correct me.

      I am a chemist, not a biologist, but I have a solid grasp on combustion chemistry and the use of oxygen by organisms. It's good that you are sharing what you have read but simplifying these concepts can be tricky at times. I'm just trying to clarify some of the statements so that people aren't mislead by an overzealous summary. Remember what Einstein said, "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler."

    65. Re:Wait, what? by garyisabusyguy · · Score: 1

      ok, extinction events are essentially game changers.

      perhaps I should have said, 'hardier in the context of the changed environment'

      --
      Wherever You Go, There You Are
    66. Re:Wait, what? by garyisabusyguy · · Score: 1

      I still don't see why you would have to 'suspend skepticism' to attend a church.

      About 15 years ago I went hunting for a church that I would be comfortable taking my kids to.

      I would say that that is why you don't see it. You already appear to have done it. Why were you "hunting for a church" to begin with?

      A few reasons; I wanted to introduce my children to a moral framework that did not require that they look to me for all information, I wanted to be around other people who had a common belief system to myself , and I wanted to meet single women after my divorce

      Found a nice one, plenty of decent people, a belief system that did not require that I turn my brain off and a real commitment to work towards making the world a better place for other people to get along in

      Really? So you found a church which did not make any supernatural claims? I'm curious, which church? Even the Unitarians around here accept a lot of supernatural weirdness, though I know of non-believers who attend for various reasons.

      It depends on what you call a supernatural claim, and whether that requires that I 'turn by brain off'. The church is the SRF, which lists its mission as, 'teach people the direct experience of God through meditation'. I know that people can be lead to have this same sensation via certain drugs and high intensity magnetic waves, but being able to sit down for an hour and perform a series of breathing and metal exercises to gain a sense of calm purpose seems, well, easier than the other two options.

      my son invited a couple of his little friends, who's parents had let him attend their church as well. Funny thing, these two little kids ran home and told their parents (whom btw, regularly spoke in tongues and flopped around on the ground in their own church) that our church was 'weird', resulting in them not ever being allowed to play with my son again.

      Yes, it is always sad to see social bonds broken over something as stupid as religion.

      yep, it also lead him to have a negative view of meditation for a few years

      I suppose that there is an inclination to stick with the religion that you are born into, but honestly people, there are a lot of choices and it is pretty easy to find a religion that does not demand that you totally turn your brain off

      It's also pretty easy to live without those religions.

      I would agree that it is pretty easy to live without such influences. I tend to follow the middle path and find myself weaving between periods of rationalism and sentimentality. However, the experience of spirituality seems to be pretty deeply wired into our brains, and this spirituality gives me the strength to get through difficulties, so I am willing to let myself experience it from time to time.

      --
      Wherever You Go, There You Are
    67. Re:Wait, what? by Creedo · · Score: 1

      A few reasons; I wanted to introduce my children to a moral framework that did not require that they look to me for all information, I wanted to be around other people who had a common belief system to myself , and I wanted to meet single women after my divorce

      I suggest that you help your children develop their own moral framework. You sound like you do not want to dictate your child's moral development. Don't allow someone else to do so in your stead. If you already share a common belief system, then you have already assented to a religious belief.

      It depends on what you call a supernatural claim, and whether that requires that I 'turn by brain off'. The church is the SRF, which lists its mission as, 'teach people the direct experience of God through meditation'. I know that people can be lead to have this same sensation via certain drugs and high intensity magnetic waves, but being able to sit down for an hour and perform a series of breathing and metal exercises to gain a sense of calm purpose seems, well, easier than the other two options.

      I've done some quick reading on the SRF, and it is quite apparent that they make a lot of unfounded assumptions and supernatural claims. I have nothing against the physical practice of meditation. And if that is the extent of your purpose in joining this group, you can do so without the mystical baggage.

      yep, it also lead him to have a negative view of meditation for a few years

      I've taught my kids that they are the ones responsible for their beliefs, not me. They know what I believe, and I teach them that I am not infallible, and neither is anyone else.

      I would agree that it is pretty easy to live without such influences. I tend to follow the middle path and find myself weaving between periods of rationalism and sentimentality. However, the experience of spirituality seems to be pretty deeply wired into our brains, and this spirituality gives me the strength to get through difficulties, so I am willing to let myself experience it from time to time.

      Might I suggest meditating on the larger universe around you instead of an attempt to commune with a deity, pantheistic or otherwise? I have found that Carl Sagan is especially conducive to deep contemplation. Try watching an episode of "Cosmos" and using something from there as a mantra.

      --
      All that is necessary for the triumph of good is that evil men do nothing.
    68. Re:Wait, what? by globaljustin · · Score: 1

      (Or maybe you're just better at this game than I am.)

      That's gotta be it...I've had alot of mistakes to learn from ;) I have loved science my whole life (thanks to my parents) and my mind was CONSTANTLY pushing against what the school/church was teaching about the natural world.

      I like people. I like meeting and talking to all kinds of different people, including fundie arch-conservatives, about anything under the sun. Sometimes I just want to BS about sports or music, other times I like defying their expectations and playing their morality against the ideas they support.

      When I'm not looking for a fight and I just want to jawbone, I've found my advice above works the best.

      --
      Thank you Dave Raggett
    69. Re:Wait, what? by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1
      Arguments from incredulity like yours are not really much use. Just because you can't understand it doesn't mean it isn't understandable.

      Some thoughts are that "life" coming from space arguing for a "creator" is a pretty bad argument. That would just put the "How did it all start?" question one step further back.

      The odd thing is that you see things as "extremely complex", "amazingly complex", when in fact it is surprisingly understandable. Some things are likely to stay relatively constant in form. This world has a certain set of minerals to work with, life such as it is, is operating within the possibilities within that set. Changing a few parts of the very basic building blocks is the recipe for extinction.

      I think there is a basic misunderstanding of the process of evolution. Evolution doesn't start anything. It takes what is there, and depending on the vagaries of environment and/or mutation, slowly modifies the life form. Nothing directed there. And it is tradeoffs too. It was an startling discovery to find that the genetic traits that give rise to sickle cell anemia help confer immunity to malaria. It would be a cruel creator who would engineer that into our genes. But on a natural evolutionary model, it makes a certain amount of sense, where more vulnerable people would likely be killed by malaria, whereas those who had only one copy of the resistant gene would be healthy. Unfortunately if a person gets two copies - not good at all.

      But nature isn't operating on cruel or not cruel, it's operating on survival or not survival.

      But back to your lack of understanding of some of the basic building blocks of life. There is only so much that you can do before it becomes impossible to sustain life. While it isn't impossible for an entirely different life form to arise, built on an entirely different mechanism, it would have to go through all the evolutionary hurdles as the rest of life. The odds are against it.

      Finally, I find it interesting that we look at it in such different ways. You see the similarities and think that it argues for a creator. I see the opposite.

      In fact, the quickest way for me to believe that God, space aliens, the Spaghetti Monster or Bob created life would be for a huge diversity of completely different life forms to be all around us, or perhaps our interiors to be just undifferentiated goo, without any other function than to keep us form being hollow. A body that couldn't exist in any other way than a divine being keeping it together. Now there's an argument for divine creation if I ever saw one.

      --
      Why is this even on SlashDot?... Why is this even on Slashdot?...Why is this even on Slashdot?
    70. Re:Wait, what? by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      By unchanged I mean unchanged functionality.

      Why on earth would a a gene change functionality? It's there because it does a particular thing.

      But wait, how about genes that do unexpected things? My previous example of a gene that if you only had one copy of this gene, you would be immune to one ailment, but if you had two, you would become ill with another. That is the case with sickle cell trait. But that very example is why genes change slowly if at all. It saves people some times, and kills them at other times.

      And that is the real answer to your unchanging genes dilemma. Most changes are bad, and that being the case, we are a whole lot more likely to be seeing the not bad stuff, because the bad changes were a one-off dead end.

      --
      Why is this even on SlashDot?... Why is this even on Slashdot?...Why is this even on Slashdot?
    71. Re:Wait, what? by Eivind+Eklund · · Score: 1

      For me, "space" has the advantage as an explanation that it can have much more parallelism and more time. Though I'm not sure that more is needed - even on earth, we get a lot of both.

      --
      Doubting the existence of evolution is like doubting the existence of China: It just shows that you're uninformed.
  4. Creationism by Trip6 · · Score: 1, Troll

    40% of US residents believe in creationism. What are you going to say to them, huh?

    --
    I hate being bipolar; it's awesome!
    1. Re:Creationism by ushering05401 · · Score: 0

      40% of US residents believe in creationism. What are you going to say to them, huh?

      How about: "Hey, why are you free citizens of the United States of America exercising those freedoms!?!? Friggin assholes!!!"

      You??

    2. Re:Creationism by Daniel+Dvorkin · · Score: 5, Funny

      40% of US residents believe in creationism. What are you going to say to them, huh?

      As little as possible.

      --
      The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
    3. Re:Creationism by meow27 · · Score: 1

      40% of US residents believe in creationism. What are you going to say to them, huh?



      Just use the famous old trick

      if in the 4th day the sun and the moon were created, then how could you tell time before hand?

      this must have happened between days 1-4
      >:3
    4. Re:Creationism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Free to be wrong is still wrong, the universe doesn't care.

    5. Re:Creationism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

      free to be wrong is FUNDAMENTAL to being free.

    6. Re:Creationism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This doesn't say anything that contradicts Creation, or The Omnipotent Creator. Its just that it all happened umpteen billion years ago.

    7. Re:Creationism by gman003 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Simple. "God works in subtle, mysterious ways. Who is to say that He did not create the universe in such a way that the precise results He wished to occur would occur, like an intricate, universe-wide set of dominoes? Could not evolution be the means by which He created man?"

      If they continue to argue, hit them with a crowbar.

    8. Re:Creationism by ushering05401 · · Score: 2

      Wow. You just decoded the entire reason I don't run around killing people.

      What do you think would happen if people started thinking about this more? Maybe we would soon see a "Hey, we have been wrong before so we will think a little more next time" popular uprising.

      It will be chaos I tell you. People thinking thoughts.. talking to each other.. My god, I need my inhaler and HOMELAND SECURITY!!!

    9. Re:Creationism by Brett+Buck · · Score: 0, Troll

      The overwhelming majority of human progress has come from people who were or are highly religious. Newton, for example. He (arguably) invented calculus and the law of gravity, and is essentially responsible for modern analytical science. Your primary accomplishment appears to be a snotty little comment belittling other's deeply-held beliefs.

    10. Re:Creationism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I think that Quantum Physics and that pesky uncertainty principle would tend to disagree..

      Crowbars cant alter fundamental truths.

    11. Re:Creationism by flyingkillerrobots · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure you're aware, but I'm pretty sure you've just described the basic premise of Intelligent Design.

      --
      "It is a good thing for an uneducated man to read books of quotations..." -Winston Churchill
    12. Re:Creationism by Trip6 · · Score: 0

      Yes, I belittle others deeply held beliefs that are so easily proved wrong.

      Newton had an excuse, there was no carbon dating back then.

      You don't even know me, you have no idea how little I've accomplished, Mr. poopy-pants!

      --
      I hate being bipolar; it's awesome!
    13. Re:Creationism by kanto · · Score: 2

      Overwhelming majority of the early non-religious scientists were burned at the stake or at least didn't get the credit they deserved in their lifetime; I guess that's a theistic selection of sorts.

    14. Re:Creationism by Arancaytar · · Score: 2

      Or just skip step one. :P

    15. Re:Creationism by c0lo · · Score: 2

      40% of US residents believe in creationism. What are you going to say to them, huh?

      "Awhh... forget about LHC... what do you think of Snooki?".
      Is this good enough?

      --
      Questions raise, answers kill. Raise questions to stay alive.
    16. Re:Creationism by Exclamation+mark! · · Score: 1

      I'll get my Gordon Freeman crowbar ready

      --
      I'm a wanker.... and loving it!
    17. Re:Creationism by 517714 · · Score: 1

      Because the Bible says six days! Infidel!

      --
      The US government have made it clear that we have no inalienable rights; any we do not defend vigorously will be taken.
    18. Re:Creationism by flyingfsck · · Score: 1

      Hmm, for an all powerful god to create everything, know everything and control everything, that god must necessarily be much larger and more complex than the universe. So, who created this god?

      --
      Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
    19. Re:Creationism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The overwhelming majority of human progress has come from people who were or are highly religious.

      The overwhelming majority of human progress has come from people who are highly dead.

    20. Re:Creationism by Newtonian_p · · Score: 1

      Ultragod created God, obviously.

      Who created Ultragod you ask? What a silly question. Ultragod is eternal and thus needs no origin.

      --

      There are 2 kinds of people in this world: Those who write in decimal and those who don't

    21. Re:Creationism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have created a new word specifically for these types of conversations. Every evolutionist has had a "proselytizing" experience where a devoutly religious person tries to persuade you that creationism is the only possible answer. Now, I have a word for the evolutionist who wants to praise evolution from the heavens; fossilytizing! I've added it to addictionary so please vote it you will and share with your friends!

    22. Re:Creationism by ukemike · · Score: 1

      Hmm, for an all powerful god to create everything, know everything and control everything, that god must necessarily be much larger and more complex than the universe. So, who created this god?

      He evolved.

      --
      -- QED
    23. Re:Creationism by Newtonian_p · · Score: 2

      This sort of ad-hoc rationalisation can be used to account for absolutely anything imaginable. For instance, arguing that God created the whole Universe 5 minutes ago with everything in it and all our memories in a way to make it undistinguishable from a 13.7 billion year old Universe would be another example of ad-hoc rationalisation that can account for anything which is intellectually equivalent to your suggestion.

      I know you don't necessarily believe in "domino theology", it is just something to use on creationists but in my experience there almost no chance that they'll change anything in their mind about the subject of evolution. For anything related to someone's religiously based beliefs it's hard to have any productive discussion.

      --

      There are 2 kinds of people in this world: Those who write in decimal and those who don't

    24. Re:Creationism by stms · · Score: 0

      I'm not worried they'll come around once their molecules are made of photons.

    25. Re:Creationism by PPH · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The overwhelming majority of human progress has come from people who were or are highly religious.

      Or claimed to be in order to escape the current Inquisition.

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
    26. Re:Creationism by c0lo · · Score: 1

      Hmm, for an all powerful god to create everything, know everything and control everything, that god must necessarily be much larger and more complex than the universe. So, who created this god?

      He evolved.

      Blasphemy ... everybody knows that She evolved, praise be unto Her Noodliness

      Prayer and Gospel reading in the Reformate Pastafarian Church this Friday at noon-time.

      --
      Questions raise, answers kill. Raise questions to stay alive.
    27. Re:Creationism by khallow · · Score: 0

      40% of US residents believe in creationism. What are you going to say to them, huh?

      Are you sure it's not 98%? That's a number too.

    28. Re:Creationism by adamofgreyskull · · Score: 5, Insightful
      I'm sorry, but that's a ridiculous argument. So what? Newton was religious. Richard Feynman isn't. Richard Dawkins isn't. Thomas Edison wasn't. Sigmund Freud wasn't. Stephen Hawking isn't. Peter Higgs isn't. James Watson isn't. These people aren't/weren't. So what? People make discoveries and come up with inventions. Some of those people believe in religion, some of them don't. Measuring relgion's impact on progress by naming famous religious scientists/inventors...down that path lies madness.

      On the other hand, many murderers, mass murderers even, are/were "highly religious" and of course, in the middle of those two extremes, there are many many many many many many many other people who have made no impact on society whatsoever, doomed to be excluded from the annals of history by their mediocrity who are (or were) "highly religious". You can't just hold up an example of a great scientist who was also religious and say:

      "Look! That proves it!!! Human progress is impossible without Religion!!"

      I think if you replaced Newton's headstone with a magnet and wrapped his coffin in wire, you'd produce a measurable current every time you did say that.

      The "overwhelming majority of human progress" is in the past, due to the fact that the present is still happening and we can't see into the future. Society is becoming more secular. Many countries still have blasphemy laws. Some countries will stone you to death if you criticise a man who's supposedly an emissary of a prophet of a god. How many people were hanged/stoned/shot to death because of their godlessness who might have come up with calculus, or the "law of gravity" or the bagless vacuum cleaner or any one of a number of Really Great Things? How many were excluded from schools/universities because of accidents of birth, or because of their religious beliefs (which is pretty much the same thing).

      How many scientists paid lip service to God and religion because it was an established social convention. How many scientists paid lip service to God because the church was giving them money? If you were studying at one of the earliest 12th-14th century(I think) church-run universities would you come out with a heretical theory that suggested that God might not exist? No. No you wouldn't.

    29. Re:Creationism by MightyMartian · · Score: 2

      To grab a fucking clue. Only the severely delusional believe in a literal interpretation of Genesis.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    30. Re:Creationism by Dhalka226 · · Score: 1

      Which is fine by me. I don't have a problem with Intelligent Design by itself. Now, when people try to push to have it taught in science classes or given equal time with scientific theories with vast amounts of evidence supporting them, then I have a problem with it. As a concept in and of itself, meh, whatever.

      In fact, I see Intelligent Design as a step in the right direction. It's essentially theists saying "okay science, you might be right -- BUT GOD DID IT ZOMG!" As an intellectual I find it to be a bit of a cop-out, but I also see it as a recognition that science might actually have it right, and also a step away from strict Biblical interpretations, both of which I consider to be extremely good things.

      It's the distinction between faith and religion. I have no particular problem with people who have faith in god; I don't share it because my mind won't allow me to accept something without evidence beyond not knowing something ("god of the gaps"), but I don't mind that they can. I do have a problem--a major problem--with religion. To quote Jefferson, with its "tyranny over the mind of man." Its self-importance, its "knowing" it's right until it can't possibly deny it's wrong anymore, the atrocities committed by it and for it, the way it is used as an excuse to sanction pretty much every horrible action in human history from wars and sacrifies to the Crusades and Inquisitions to justifications of witch hunts and slavery to modern-day gay bashing. All of these things I loathe. But actual belief that there's a higher power? Not my cup of tea, but go ahead. If nothing else it forces people to think about what god is and what he would really think and really want, and to make those decisions as individuals or communities and not as billion-member denominations who are more than happy to do all your thinking for you.

      As I said, as long as they don't try to consider such belief on the same levels of merit of actual scientific process and theory or force it on people in the name of "equality," I couldn't care less if that's what people believe.

    31. Re:Creationism by MightyMartian · · Score: 1

      class God extends God {
          function allthewayDown() { ...
          }
      }

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    32. Re:Creationism by Monchanger · · Score: 2, Informative

      The overwhelming majority of human progress has come from people who were or are highly religious.

      That's because it took us 5,000 years of civilization to grow past our need to attribute everything we didn't understand to a mysterious power. Today we actually have the cognitive fortitude to admit our ignorance and lack of imagination. Those evolved among us do anyway.

      Your "deeply-held belief", which is undoubtedly simply a circumstance of conceptive chance, rather than a profound understanding of theology and introspection, is not shared by a statistically significant number of modern scientists. So this silly claim you parroted (made up by far more intelligent religious hacks, good job crediting them by the way) proving religious belief has anything to do with scientific endeavor is plainly bullshit.

      But go right ahead. Continue to take the coward's way out and claim that some deity is responsible for your mental failures if that helps you look in the mirror. Just do us a favor and quit trying to rewritite history as well.

    33. Re:Creationism by dmuir · · Score: 2

      No, because Theistic-Evolution is self-refuting. If God said he created in 6 days, but actually took billions of years, then that would make him a liar. If he's lying about how he created, then there's a good chance he's not telling the truth about being God either (basically the inverse of John 3:12). It also ignores the premise for Evolution; a way to explain origins without God. Something is very wrong with Evolution if you have to invoke God to get it to work.

    34. Re:Creationism by M.+Baranczak · · Score: 1

      Stack overflow due to infinite recursion! Unless, of course, God has infinite address space, then he could find ways to work around that.

    35. Re:Creationism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      and try not to make eye contact.

    36. Re:Creationism by c6gunner · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Nice logic! Got another one for ya: The overwhelming majority of murders and rapes were committed by people who were or are highly religious. Guess that proves that theists are inherently immoral, eh?

    37. Re:Creationism by Black+Parrot · · Score: 1

      The overwhelming majority of human progress has come from people who were or are highly religious.

      Ignoring the dubious use of "highly" in that claim, we can also point out that all the foundations of human society and technology were created by polytheists.

      --
      Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
    38. Re:Creationism by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 1

      Overwhelming majority of the early non-religious scientists were burned at the stake or at least didn't get the credit they deserved in their lifetime; I guess that's a theistic selection of sorts.

      Citation?

      Off the top of my head, I can't think of a single non-religious scientist who was burned at the stake. Or are you counting Bruno, who was a Dominican monk, as I recall. And wasn't burned for being a scientist, but for being a heretic (no, not heretical about scientific beliefs, heretical in that he rejected a lot of Catholic religious beliefs).

      Plus the whole reincarnation thing, of course. Very bad thing to believe around Catholics, and no more scientific than Creationism....

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    39. Re:Creationism by shiftless · · Score: 1

      Its self-importance, its "knowing" it's right until it can't possibly deny it's wrong anymore, the atrocities committed by it and for it, the way it is used as an excuse to sanction pretty much every horrible action in human history from wars and sacrifies to the Crusades and Inquisitions to justifications of witch hunts and slavery to modern-day gay bashing. All of these things I loathe.

      Me too. But these are not religious qualities--they are HUMAN qualities. People did the things above because they were human, and they wanted to, and the religion was just an excuse to do it.

    40. Re:Creationism by Antique+Geekmeister · · Score: 1

      You've never been hit with a crowbar, have you? Please believe me that when you feel bones breaking for this or other reasons, it's altering some fundamental truths, includin gthe nature of your relation to your deity and the rest of the universe. And torture has, occasionally, been quite effective in changing people's minds. It's just not reliable or safe.

    41. Re:Creationism by Antique+Geekmeister · · Score: 1

      Where do you possibly derive this? Most murders and rapes are committed by family members: there's nothing like living that close to someone, especially someone under your physical care or control, to tempt abuse. Religion may ritualize it and set standards such as the child body changing of ear piercing, circumcision, or clitorectomy practiced by various cultures. But how many members of any genocidal army were genuinely religious? How many just followed orders and killed scapegoats?

    42. Re:Creationism by SourGrapes · · Score: 1

      No, because Theistic-Evolution is self-refuting. If God said he created in 6 days, but actually took billions of years, then that would make him a liar. If he's lying about how he created, then there's a good chance he's not telling the truth about being God either (basically the inverse of John 3:12).

      Six days from what reference frame, though? I'm sure you don't have to be reminded that time is relative. The perception of time of someone sitting at the beginning of the universe when the energy density was ridiculously high is going to be a lot different than ours is on Earth's surface here and now. I've seen figures that estimate the relationship between the rate of time-passage at nucleosynthesis compared to today is something like 10^12. Which, if you multiply it by 6 days, you do get about 16.4 billion years. So God's not lying, he's just using a different frame of reference. It can be literally both 6 days and billions of years simultaneously, no lying required. I doubt you'd hear that argument out of an actual creationist, but there you go.

    43. Re:Creationism by c6gunner · · Score: 1

      I don't think you understand the scope of this discussion. Generally speaking, it's a good idea to read the entire chain of comments, instead of just reading mine and then getting your panties in a bunch. Context matters.

    44. Re:Creationism by supersloshy · · Score: 1

      Note that the Catholic Church, from it's very inception (which is when Jesus made Peter his successor), never believed that the Bible was to be taken literally at all times (especially in Genesis). My source (Also, check out some of the other writings on that site: awesome resource!).

      --
      "Our country is not nearly so overrun with the bigoted as it is overrun with the broadminded." -Archbishop Fulton Sheen
    45. Re:Creationism by dmuir · · Score: 1

      I doubt you'd hear that argument out of an actual creationist, but there you go.

      That actually comes close to the arguments used by creationists: http://creation.com/astronomy-and-astrophysics-questions-and-answers#starlight

    46. Re:Creationism by pinkushun · · Score: 0

      Oh man, that just sent me on a 45 minute xkcd diversion. I love being on holiday! :-D

    47. Re:Creationism by pinkushun · · Score: 1

      40% of US residents believe in creationism. What are you going to say to them, huh?

      "Creating man and women incapable of evil is the act of a worthy God"? :-D

    48. Re:Creationism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You can't just hold up an example of a great scientist who was also religious and say:

      "Look! That proves it!!! Human progress is impossible without Religion!!"

      On the other hand you can hold up an example of a great scientist who was also religious and say "Look! That proves it! Religion doesn't make human progress impossible!" That seemed to me to be GP's point.

      (Also, FWIW, Newton is a counterexample to anyone who wants to take your last paragraph and extrapolate it too far. He was so far from paying lip service to the established religion - publishing tracts which argued against Trinitarianism - that his scientific career would have been hindered were it not for some powerful friends.)

    49. Re:Creationism by Artifakt · · Score: 1

      Nobody, you're committing a logical fallacy. People educated in the modern era don't really believe the universe had to have a creator simply because it is big and complex. I'll bet you don't, if you know a little history of modern cosmology. So why are you reasoning from a principle you don't yourself accept? People generally believe that the universe could have been explained by a model that doesn't require any moment of creation (like the 1920's Steady State Model), but it turned out that a model that the scientific evidence fit better (The Big Bang), also implies a moment of creation. Nothing says that any and all conceptions of a universe require a creator just because they are big or complex, but the particular version of a universe we think is the best model has a moment of creation, and some people think that implies a creator. There's nothing internally illogical about God having been around forever and not having a moment of Creation - if there was, abstract logic would have been enough to disprove the Steady State Theory without us needing to cite scientific evidence such as the cosmic microwave background.

      --
      Who is John Cabal?
    50. Re:Creationism by dmuir · · Score: 1

      Your source does not actually support your claim.

      The Bible was written to be taken literally (to be understood by its literary genre). In other words, poetry is to be understood as poetry, historical narrative is to be understood as historical narrative, etc.

      If you don't take it literally, then you're free to treat the psalms as historical narrative or the laws as poetry, etc. In other words, you could make it mean whatever you want it to.

    51. Re:Creationism by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      The argument I hear at times from Old Earth creationists is that in the original Hebrew text, the word normally translated as "day" also has a secondary more general meaning of "well-definex time span". Thus translated, the Genesis really speaks of six aeons of creation, each of unspecified length.

      Of course there is still nothing in there on evolution. Unless you start to selectively consider it a book of moralizing fairy tales...

    52. Re:Creationism by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      It is hard to be non religious in a society where all education is inherently religious from early childhood, and a particular religious sect is mandated by both law and custom, with publicly expressed deviations (atheism being particularly severe one) punished by imprisonment or death.

    53. Re:Creationism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because of course, six days for an omnipotent being is the same as six days for us puny fleshlings.

    54. Re:Creationism by Nutria · · Score: 1

      Just use the famous old trick

      What famous old trick?

      if in the 4th day the sun and the moon were created, then how could you tell time before hand?

      If you're going to tease someone for being stupid, first know what the hell that you are talking about...

      --
      "I don't know, therefore Aliens" Wafflebox1
    55. Re:Creationism by h00manist · · Score: 2

      40% of US residents believe in creationism. What are you going to say to them, huh?

      1) Go ahead and believe what you want.
      2) Stay away from me.
      3) Stay away from my school.
      4) Stay away from my newspaper, website, street, neighborhood, job, and city.
      5) You are free to go set up your own of those. Don't invite me.

      --
      Build your own energy sources from scratch. http://otherpower.com/
    56. Re:Creationism by apparently · · Score: 1

      But these are not religious qualities--they are HUMAN qualities. People did the things above because they were human, and they wanted to, and the religion was just an excuse to do it.

      Incorrectimundo! The bible codifies slavery, the invasion of foreign lands and murder of non-believers, and capital punishment toward homosexuals. The holy scripture of the 3 major religions purport the above to be the commandment of God.

    57. Re:Creationism by apparently · · Score: 1

      Considering that the creation story was being dictated to people who had no concept of relativity, it's pretty damned safe to assume that when they were told that an event occurred within "a day", that that "day" was the 24 hours that said people were familiar with. These people couldn't even comprehend that their pork wasn't creating maggots via spontaneous generation, and you're trying to tell me that the almighty was all "fuck those guys, I'll tell'em all this shit happened in a day cause that's just how I roll?"
      god could have just as easily said "a billion years", so what's the logical choice of not doing so? As an omniscient being, you'd think he'd be, I dunno, aware of the issue this would pose to us 2010 earthly inhabitants.

    58. Re:Creationism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If we look at god as a programmer. What is the ultimate program??? Easy, one that evolves and self corrects over time on it's own. AKA a self evolving program. One of the more interesting things is seeing feet and hands on fish before land dwelling took place. Image writing duke nuke'em 1 and just letting it run make a few decisions along the evolutionary tree and ending up with DNF.

      For believers all evolution shows us is that god is smart and lazy. Just like us. Why build a million different species and terraform a rock when you could make a simple sub-bacteria that would figure out all the little details for you while doing all of the work. Dinosaurs may not have fit into god's great vision, so bye bye. If one expects a god that transcends time. He could even adjust the formation of the solar system to make just that a rock of the right size smashed the earth at the right time.

    59. Re:Creationism by h00manist · · Score: 1

      Simple. "God works in subtle, mysterious ways. Who is to say that He did not create the universe in such a way that the precise results He wished to occur would occur, like an intricate, universe-wide set of dominoes? Could not evolution be the means by which He created man?" If they continue to argue, hit them with a crowbar.

      Crowbars are old-fashioned. Now you just publish their accounting records, evidence of millions in people's "donated" properties, under threats of punishment from above and below if they refuse.

      --
      Build your own energy sources from scratch. http://otherpower.com/
    60. Re:Creationism by Ginger+Unicorn · · Score: 1

      Religion doesn't make human progress impossible!" That seemed to me to be GP's point.

      If it was the GP's point it was a false dichotomy and a straw man. Making a process impossible is not the same thing as being somewhat of an impediment to it.

      Simply namechecking scientists in one camp or the other does little towards determining the extent to which religiosity helps or hinders scientific understanding, as the poster that you're arguing against specifically points out.

      --
      (1.21 gigawatts) / (88 miles per hour) = 30 757 874 newtons
    61. Re:Creationism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Isn't it wonderful that the Lord came up with such a beautiful, low-maintenance system for life that allowed it to adapt to adversity and change over the eons? What a fantastic system that He didn't have to individually create everything and keep intervening whenever things changed.

      And if they don't see the amazing beauty in a creation that can diversify and evolve as necessary to survive, well, then they don't really have much appreciation for God's creation, do they? If I'm feeling more confrontational, I could go further and point out that they are idolizing a human-made book rather than looking at what is in God's creation itself. By implying only the "literal" interpretation is correct and claiming that anything else is blasphemous, they are insulting generations of religious scientists who have honestly investigated the universe and are theologically content with what they've discovered, because their belief does not happen to depend upon a literal interpretation of genesis.

      Of course, I don't expect that will work, but it's probably what I would say. After which I expect most of them to say "Huh?" or insult me for questioning their interpretation of their favorite book.

    62. Re:Creationism by Peeteriz · · Score: 1

      By the way, does any noticeable percentage outside of US believe in creationism, or it is just a local issue there?

      My impression seems that there is no mass debate about creationism in other countries even the most religiously conservative ones such as Poland, and even Vatican and the popes have repeatedly claimed that there is no contradiction between their faith and evolution theory or big bang theory...

    63. Re:Creationism by ambrosen · · Score: 1

      Well, I've heard that logic as being attributed to Origen, so it goes right back to the early church. I'd say that's an old trick.

    64. Re:Creationism by Quirkz · · Score: 1

      And just think of what we'll be able to do once we put those silly deeply-held beliefs behind us and work with just the facts!

    65. Re:Creationism by Nutria · · Score: 1

      You've heard that Origen (who wrote commentaries of Genesis) didn't know the "Order of Creation"?

      --
      "I don't know, therefore Aliens" Wafflebox1
    66. Re:Creationism by Mr.+McGibby · · Score: 1

      I love how you go off on the GP for claiming that the beliefs of individual scientists are irrelevant to the discussion and then use exactly the same argument (albeit by implication) to try to show the opposite thing. Make up your mind.

      And while we're at it, Henry Eyring was a very respected scientist who believed firmly in God.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Eyring

      --
      Mad Software: Rantings on Developing So
    67. Re:Creationism by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 1

      Those evolved among us do anyway.

      Your basic assumption is that EVOLUTION is the sole explanation why we're "smarter" than those of 5000 years ago. If that were so, then evolution is much more rapid than evolution theory supports. How would you explain that?

      You see, this is the fundamental flaw of evolutionism today, is that it is overly prescribed to conditions it shouldn't even be ascribed to and mostly by people who think that evolution is the only explanation for progress.

      The fact is, we're probably not smarter than humans of 5000 years ago, we're just able to pass along collected wisdom and knowledge better, which is entirely cultural, not biological in nature.

      Or put it this way, think of how stupid the average person is today, and realize that 1/2 the people are more stupid than this. Do you really thing we're evolving as a species or is it just the "smart" people that are evolving? On the other hand, if the ratio of smart to dumb people isn't really changing then are we really evolving? Perhaps we should start killing off all the stupid people, leaving a few behind to do all the work all of us smart people won't do.

      The real problem with your line of logic is inevitably it results in elitism of the evil kind, of genocide and eugenics. I realize that you probably didn't even mean it that way, but that just means, you're not as smart as you think you are, nor nearly as evolved as you think you are.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    68. Re:Creationism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Now if only he had a way to exit an infinite loop as well. Sure, he is resourceful fellow inventing everything before there was anything. Solving logical paradoxes is god's speciality after all.

    69. Re:Creationism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Obviously he is eternal. It's so reasonable and logical. And because he is eternal he obviously made the universe, which couldn't be eternal because god made it, so there was a time where god existed but the universe didn't even through time didn't exist before the universe, and neither did anything. Except god who is a constant exception to everything else because he told us so in a 2000 old book, but he refuses to write a simple "hi, thanks for believing in me" in the sky even for his most devout believers today. In fact he really must set up everything in a way to look as if he doesn't even exist (except for the book) because he's testing you... for something... even through he's god and doesn't get anything useful from you that he could create right away from the scratch. Oh and he may have fucked up when creating the Angels but that doesn't count because he had a bad day when he made Satan. And us. And when planning his garden without a fence around the tree he didn't want us to touch. After all, who could have through that it could be dangerous to leave two naive creatures unattended near a dangerous object. It's the same solid line of thought as letting 6 year olds to play with flame-throwers.

    70. Re:Creationism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      First, I would need you to cite the source of your information. You surely don't expect me to believe it is true simply because you said so, do you?

      Second, you need to define "highly religious".

      Otherwise, as an atheist, I would have to agree with your statement.

    71. Re:Creationism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      citation, PLEASE!

    72. Re:Creationism by geekoid · · Score: 1

      "Your wrong, keep your fucking beliefs out of the fact."

      I would also like to see society completely shun them.

      Also, its' lower then 40%', but that doesn't matter. Even if it was 100% we would all be WRONG.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    73. Re:Creationism by sorak · · Score: 1

      Or to take a slightly different take on the same argument:

      Is there anything man can envision that a god cannot create? If a scientist can envision a universe so fantastic that it's life can evolve through a natural process, how can you assert that your god could not have created it?

      Of course, it would seem disingenuous coming from an atheist, (like me), but it still seems strange to believe in a god who must have used magic and manual intervention, and who would have had no interest in watching his invention work? It would be like building a car and then choosing to push it to the store, because although you could have made it fully functioning, you wanted it to be missing a few parts.

    74. Re:Creationism by geekoid · · Score: 1

      We was making a trite statement, not a logical argument. Please learn the difference.

      We aren't really that much smarter thens one 5000 years ago. We do know significantly more information and testable facts. we progress on the shoulders of giants, as it where. And not I don't literally mean giants.

      "Or put it this way, think of how stupid the average person is today, and realize that 1/2 the people are more stupid than this."

      So you also don't understand averages. nice.

      And then you use smart as if it's some indicator of evolution. Becoming smarter does not mean more evolution has taken place.

      "The real problem with your line of logic is inevitably it results in elitism of the evil kind, of genocide and eugenics"

      Wrong. In fact it means it can't. No species can survive with just those traits.

      Also your premise seems to rely on 'stupid'. The vast majority of people are not stupid. They maybe focused on something else or distracted, but not stupid. You can be smart and be wrong.

      A basic understanding of the scientific process indicates that people are wrong.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    75. Re:Creationism by sorak · · Score: 1

      Most of them lived in a time when the church controlled most of the wealth in the world. At the time, you either had to be nobility or clergy to gain even a basic education. So is it any surprise that the people who controlled the education system also made much of the scientific progress?

      As for atheists, well, I don't know what we can take credit for. It wouldn't be fair to look at a scientist and say "he's an atheist, therefore atheism gets all the credit", but most modern science is not conducted in Church facilities, and most advances in modern disease treatment do not come from the Vatican, or any other religious organization.

    76. Re:Creationism by SourGrapes · · Score: 1

      Considering that the creation story was being dictated to people who had no concept of relativity, it's pretty damned safe to assume that when they were told that an event occurred within "a day", that that "day" was the 24 hours that said people were familiar with. These people couldn't even comprehend that their pork wasn't creating maggots via spontaneous generation, and you're trying to tell me that the almighty was all "fuck those guys, I'll tell'em all this shit happened in a day cause that's just how I roll?" god could have just as easily said "a billion years", so what's the logical choice of not doing so? As an omniscient being, you'd think he'd be, I dunno, aware of the issue this would pose to us 2010 earthly inhabitants.

      Well, you said it yourself: it was being dictated to people who had no concept of relativity. But it had to be relevant to them as well as to us, thousands of years later. So it can be in a sense literally true for them with a simpler understanding and we can also figure it out with some math.

      But also the Bible isn't a science book, it only spends like 30 lines describing the creation of the entire universe. The really important bits come later.

    77. Re:Creationism by lordmage · · Score: 1

      So... Who is the worst mass murderer in history?
      I will try.. Stalin for 25 million. Not religious.

      That said, Stop trying to start fights. Its how people get hurt.

      --
      I can program myself out of a Hello World Contest!!
    78. Re:Creationism by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      I think that Quantum Physics and that pesky uncertainty principle would tend to disagree..

      I think you misunderstand the uncertainty principle. Precise inequalities that certain pairs of physical properties, such as position and momentum, cannot be simultaneously known to arbitrarily high precision. That is, the more precisely one property is measured, the less precisely the other can be measured.

      Think of a pool ball. If the only way to measure its velocity is to alter where it's going, you can't measure where it is. If the only way to measure its position is to stop it, you can't know how fast it's going.

      As to the rest of quantum mechanics, compared to how much there is to know, there is very little that's actually known. Think of a computer generated random number -- it sure looks random, but it isn't really.

    79. Re:Creationism by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      Now, when people try to push to have it taught in science classes or given equal time with scientific theories with vast amounts of evidence supporting them, then I have a problem with it.

      As do I, and I'm a Christian. Intelligent design belongs in philosophy class, not science class. It has absolutely nothing to do with science.

    80. Re:Creationism by pclminion · · Score: 1

      The overwhelming majority of human progress has come from people who were or are highly religious.

      If your argument is that the majority class is somehow important, then you should have asserted instead that being male is obviously the biggest factor in making a lasting impact.

    81. Re:Creationism by mcgrew · · Score: 2

      If God said he created in 6 days, but actually took billions of years

      What is a day? You do know that time isn't absolute; someone falling into a black hole will experience a day while everyone else experiences thousands, millions, or billions of years depending on how close he is to the singulariy, and how fast he's moving.

      It also ignores the premise for Evolution; a way to explain origins without God.

      Evolution doesn't explain life's origins at all. It explains how and why life has changed since it arose. We're still pretty clueless about how it actually started (although I did see an interesting theory in one of the science magazines). Also, the "way to explain origins without god" is false; if science finds proof of God (which I doubt will ever happen), science will fit God into its framework.

      As it is, there is no reason for science to either include or exclude God.

    82. Re:Creationism by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      god could have just as easily said "a billion years"

      First, the biggest number people knew back then was "multitude". Second, a human being cannot comprehend a billion anything.

    83. Re:Creationism by spiralx · · Score: 1

      That's true if you ignore the fact that Stalin went to a seminary as a youngster; whether or not he was religious in later life, religion certainly played a large part in his upbringing.

    84. Re:Creationism by kanto · · Score: 1

      Hyperbole I admit, but no more than to claim that majority of significant scientists are/were highly religious.

    85. Re:Creationism by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      The overwhelming majority of human progress has come from people who are highly dead.

      No, Jimi Hendrix and Janis Joplin are highly dead. Newton's simply dead.

    86. Re:Creationism by lordmage · · Score: 1

      So as revenge for the Nuns? I always find that when someone cannot figure out a way to get power one way, they try another.

      If you are born a 200th child of a Kings House and you want power but are blocked, that is where religion comes in. It is why Osama got his power from Religion, why Kings from middle ages gave up children to the Church (not first born males) etc. I just wish people would actually follow the Peace of the majority of the Religions instead of the Anger of the Power of the Human Flesh.

      --
      I can program myself out of a Hello World Contest!!
    87. Re:Creationism by shiftless · · Score: 1

      And where did Biblical writers get these ideas? Slavery, invasion of foreign lands, murder, etc have been going on for tens of thousands of years, since long before any organized religion. The Bible in no way originated any of these behaviors. The Bible and other religious books are a reflection of the cultures that wrote them, not the other way around.

    88. Re:Creationism by adamofgreyskull · · Score: 1

      First, why did he tell them to write a "day" for each step instead of "a multitude of lifetimes" for each step? Second, regretfully, by making the first argument, I'm accepting the bullshit premise that a god actually dictated this fucking story to a bunch of people so they could write it down. I feel dirty.

      More likely, someone made this shit up without any divine intervention and decided that hey...even though it's been around longer than I can remember...someone must have made all this stuff. Well, to do that...he'd have to be like...magic or some shit. How long should I say it took him? Well...he is magic...so...2 seconds? Nah, no-one would ever buy that...a day? Hmmm...nah, I'll go with a week, much more believable....

    89. Re:Creationism by adamofgreyskull · · Score: 1

      No, not at all, I was trying to point out how ridiculous it is for either camp to do so, but admittedly, I didn't state that explicitly...mea culpa.

    90. Re:Creationism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Again, I was trying to avoid exactly this kind of pissing contest, but because I didn't make my point explicit every fuckwit on here is misunderstanding me

      Congratulations, Stalin wasn't "religious" and was the worst mass murderer in history, now someone else comes up with a religious mass murderer and we revert to this fucking bullshit argument, which as I was trying to point out, is ridiculous!

      Newton was religious, so what? If you believe in God, then he is responsible for Newton's discoveries...so...did God not have anything to do with Richard Dawkins, or Feynman or Hawking or Edison? If you believe in God, regardless of whether or not those people did, you believe that he is in all things, created all things and guides everything we do, right? Whether or not a particular person is religious is therefore irrelevant.

      I'm sorry, but that's a ridiculous argument. So what? Newton was religious. Richard Feynman isn't. Richard Dawkins isn't. Thomas Edison wasn't. Sigmund Freud wasn't. Stephen Hawking isn't. Peter Higgs isn't. James Watson isn't. These people [wikipedia.org] aren't/weren't. So what? People make discoveries and come up with inventions. Some of those people believe in religion, some of them don't. Measuring relgion's impact on progress by naming famous religious scientists/inventors...down that path lies madness.

      I went on to point out that many (not all, or even a majority of) murderers, some of whom were mass murderers, were highly religious and that some of the vast majority of people who have ever lived and not been celebrated were highly religious. My point wasn't to start a pissing match, it was that it's just as easy to come up with examples of people who've harmed human progress or not contributed to human progress who were highly religious. Cherry-picking Sir Isaac Newton from that huge sample and using him as an example of why human progress relies on religious people is therefore disingenuous.

    91. Re:Creationism by ushering05401 · · Score: 1

      I know you are just riffing here, but there is a fundamental aspect to the concept of a day that you are missing. Coincidentally, some of the information in this post serves as a kind of shibboleth for certain types of Catholics and Jews - similar to the way the history of the Constitution of Medina can be used to identify radical Muslims from the true Brothers.

      A 'day' is a period composed of both darkness and light. Light was not before the word. That does not mean that there was only literal darkness before the delineation, only that there was sameness that was broken by the delineation of light and dark. In this scenario, 'Let there be light' can actually be an invocation to create what we know as darkness - but is more typically interpreted to mean that the Word/bang/noise was accompanied by a great flooding energy of light that finally subsided such that light and darkness could be gathered as neither totally dominated the others. Pop Christians rarely make this distinction.

      Traditionalist usually claim that God set a system in motion which began with the delineation between two things - and in this delineation we locate the manifest separation between God and those in his image - the power to name with totality, thereby both dividing and to binding across the physical, spiritual, and temporal realms.

      So with this in mind, restating the creation story goes something like this. Everything wholly within our universe was still, though there were dormant planetary masses in the stillness such that there was no point in dividing the thought of one thing from the thought of another. Then there was a noise so catastrophic that the physical nature of the universe was immediately and irrevocably altered.

      The most immediate result of this noise/bang/whatever is that the uniform stillness of the universe was first flooded with light, then divided into relative periodicities flowing outward from the creation event/word/noise/bang.

      We don't actually see anything resembling an earth length day until Day 4 when the earth assumes regular orbit around the sun and the moon is placed (many say as a form of clock for the beasts of the earth). Then it goes Day5 Sea Life, Day6 Land Life.

      So the only actual Days that you have a problem with are days 5 & 6 - after the earth stabilized on Day 4. Everything prior to that is being measured relative to Primum Movens, which had thus far in the narrative measurably expressed itself only as a binding and dividing force of which light and darkness (aka stable periodicity) formed the primary division of consequence.

      Literally, the base unit of measure pre-Day4 is the unit of measure that Christians and Jews believe allowed all other things to come to pass - the separation of light and dark. It has nothing to do with orbital periods as there is an explicit statement that the body around which the earth orbits was acquired later along with our beloved satellite.

    92. Re:Creationism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How would a perfect being know it is perfect? One cannot be perfect while there is evidence of a measure between your incarnation and another.

      Strong AI is a scale-model, and is completely paralyzed. You must hobble it to get a properly formed system to demonstrate anything human usable (other than identity properties). The fact that some parties go on with this hobbling even after it is proven that the fucking human birth canal is an adequate avenue for all sustainable purposes simply means we have not slaughtered our last traitor to the cause of life.

      Anyhow, there is a test built into what you are hinting. There is a reason we are here. It is a very bloody reason and has a very real purpose in the bloodless future; the paralyzed future.

    93. Re:Creationism by Creedo · · Score: 1

      And where did Biblical writers get these ideas? Slavery, invasion of foreign lands, murder, etc have been going on for tens of thousands of years, since long before any organized religion. The Bible in no way originated any of these behaviors. The Bible and other religious books are a reflection of the cultures that wrote them, not the other way around.

      Exactly. The authors were just creatures of their time. There is no evidence of any supernatural character or wisdom here. Now, granted, the bible does authorize those crimes, so it is a reprehensible piece of garbage to base one's life on, but you are correct in stating that they did not originate in the bible.

      --
      All that is necessary for the triumph of good is that evil men do nothing.
    94. Re:Creationism by werewolf1031 · · Score: 1

      Free to be wrong is still wrong, the universe doesn't care.

      If you're not free to make your own mistakes, you're not really free at all.

    95. Re:Creationism by sorak · · Score: 1

      How would a perfect being know it is perfect? One cannot be perfect while there is evidence of a measure between your incarnation and another.

      Strong AI is a scale-model, and is completely paralyzed. You must hobble it to get a properly formed system to demonstrate anything human usable (other than identity properties). The fact that some parties go on with this hobbling even after it is proven that the fucking human birth canal is an adequate avenue for all sustainable purposes simply means we have not slaughtered our last traitor to the cause of life.

      Anyhow, there is a test built into what you are hinting. There is a reason we are here. It is a very bloody reason and has a very real purpose in the bloodless future; the paralyzed future.

      Does anybody know what this guy is talking about?

    96. Re:Creationism by riverat1 · · Score: 1

      Who knows if time and causality as we know them has any meaning outside of the universe we live within?

    97. Re:Creationism by riverat1 · · Score: 1

      You know, Venus's day is longer than its year so maybe God didn't spin up the Earth until He realized that it would get too hot on one side and too cold on the other once he created life.

      (Said with tongue firmly in cheek.)

    98. Re:Creationism by riverat1 · · Score: 1

      Until a couple of hundred years ago the majority of educated, literate people were either priests or members of the aristocracy who generally worked together to maintain their power. Not only that but it could be dangerous to your existence to proclaim a non-belief in the prevailing religion.

    99. Re:Creationism by Monchanger · · Score: 1

      Your understanding of the definition of "smart" is wrong. You confused my use of the word "grow" for "evolution". And then you misunderstood my use of the word "evolved" to mean literal evolution, rather than being a slight against the idiots among us who think scientific progress stems from religious conviction. When people call you a neanderthal, they don't really mean you're not as much a homo as they are. Not genus-wise anyway.

      All in all, great job showing us how incapable you are of reading what wasn't a very difficult post. Picking part of one sentence to take out of context to suit your "argument" kinda gave away the fact that you are nothing more than a loon.

      As for the demonstration of Godwin's Law, that's some really twisted "logic" you've got there-. How exactly did you get from a discussion about the relationship between belief and science to intentional depopulation and genetic machination? You might want to get some professional help for that- that wasn't where I was going, you introduced that line of insanity all on your own. My actual opinion is you'll never breed with anyone worthwhile and that's good because we'll always need your type to milk cows and flip burgers. Mmmm... Cheeseburgers...

    100. Re:Creationism by supersloshy · · Score: 1

      If you don't take it literally, then you're free to treat the psalms as historical narrative or the laws as poetry, etc. In other words, you could make it mean whatever you want it to.

      Rather large misconception on your part. You're forgetting what the Bible was intended to be in the first place, and in effect making the Bible more than it was meant to be. Yes, the Bible is "inspired", as in, "God-breathed", but it isn't 100% correct on everything, nor was it intended to be. The Bible was written for the Church, by the Church with God's guidance, not for peoples' own interpretation. The Bible was never meant to be a super-accurate scientific document and it shows in various places with metaphors, similes, analogies, and other various wordings that are thousands of years old, therefore not necessarily following standard language and writing practices of today.

      The Bible was always intended to be a collection of stories from the Jewish and Christian past, presented in a variety of narratives by a variety of authors (though all inspired). The Bible does not account for the intricate details of every single Jewish and Catholic tradition, simply because it wasn't meant to be the sole rule of faith. In the same way, it doesn't account for every scientific detail in a perfectly accurate manner at all times, and while it may be accurate about spiritual matters (assuming that's what you believe), there is nothing in the Bible or Catholic/Jewish tradition that says it is also 100% scientifically accurate, or meant to be, and Catholic/Jewish tradition has been around for a very long time and the Catholic church believes the very things that the original Church fathers believed back in their time; if anybody knew the correct way to interpret scripture, it would be the direct successors of the Apostles themselves, yes?

      Obviously, the Bible isn't meant to be taken 100% literally at all times. Why then is the beginning of Genesis exempt from this? You'll find in Genesis that God said Adam would die "the day", not millennium, that he ate from that tree (depending on the translation: the NIV doesn't have it, but KJV, etc., have it). Yet, he lived to be well over 900 years old. Does this mean that each "day" in the beginning of Genesis was approximately a thousand years? No, but it does show that the word "day" is (and can be) used loosely to illustrate a biblical truth. When Genesis was written, I wouldn't expect Moses (or whoever wrote it) to use the exact number of millions and billions of years for everything that was made (or even to describe the process that they were made) hence the use of "day".

      --
      "Our country is not nearly so overrun with the bigoted as it is overrun with the broadminded." -Archbishop Fulton Sheen
  5. Plant and Animal... by RyanFenton · · Score: 2

    Two fires that found a way to indirectly fuel eachother over the millennia by way of oxygen. Somewhat romantic, actually. Actually makes more sense to give a flower in that context.

    Ryan Fenton

    1. Re:Plant and Animal... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What do the plants give? A bouquet of genitals?

      "Say it with roses" ...

  6. The Great Memory Leak by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

    This is what happens when you don't free() your genes after you're done with them.

    1. Re:The Great Memory Leak by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is what happens when you don't free() your genes...

      the nun told me doing that would make me go blind.
      So she did it for me. Mmmm, nun job.

    2. Re:The Great Memory Leak by c0lo · · Score: 1

      This is what happens when you don't free() your genes after you're done with them.

      Why free them? Want to end like Manning? Send them to Cryptome or OpenLeaks... (one simply cannot trust Wikileaks for responsible leaks releasing).

      --
      Questions raise, answers kill. Raise questions to stay alive.
  7. Cue... by dakameleon · · Score: 0

    Cue misguided references to Jurassic Park in 3... 2...

    --
    Man who leaps off cliff jumps to conclusion.
  8. Oxygen catastrophe by Rosyna · · Score: 1

    Just flip a switch and the earth gets flooded with oxygen. Where's Noah when you need him?!

  9. What about mass extintions? by gmuslera · · Score: 1

    Is not that every living thing died, but that very few survived, and those very few could had common recent mutations (i.e. resistence to cold around ice ages) that could be misinterpreted as ancient genes as found in different species.

    1. Re:What about mass extintions? by rodarson2k · · Score: 1

      That's their whole argument. Everything that survived the period of time that they are referring to was capable of utilizing oxygen. After that, things got more and more complicated and diverse.

      Basically, these guys just got an article posted to slashdot (and nature) describing how they just confirmed that evolution probably happened more or less how we expected that it did.

    2. Re:What about mass extintions? by ColdWetDog · · Score: 1

      Basically, these guys just got an article posted to slashdot (and nature) describing how they just confirmed that evolution probably happened more or less how we expected that it did.

      Nice snark, eh? Maybe you should drop some acid and read the paper. Might open your mind to some fantastic little details like coming up with an explanation of how most life on the planet manages to look at act like it does.

      Yes, TFRP (The Fine Research Paper) broadly agrees with current evolutionary theory. No, it's not the Higgs Boson or even the Flying Spaghetti Monster. It does represent an interesting new look of a vastly important time in our biosphere - one that is fantastically difficult to study.

      But keep on minimizing everything if it suits you. Your loss.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    3. Re:What about mass extintions? by ralphdaugherty · · Score: 1

      Is not that every living thing died, but that very few survived, and those very few could had common recent mutations (i.e. resistence to cold around ice ages) that could be misinterpreted as ancient genes as found in different species.

      Those things would be the Archaea with all our existing complex life infrastructure existing in frigid cold and hydrothermal vents deep under sea, and in earth heated sulphur lakes and high saline lakes. They were able to survive and pass on to us life.

  10. Damned Stromatolites... by garyisabusyguy · · Score: 2

    with their cyanobacteria cronies!

    --
    Wherever You Go, There You Are
  11. in an analogy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If there had been CO2 dependent intelligent life at the time they would have phrased the rise in O2 in the same terms we frame the rise in CO2 today, O2 would be a form of pollution, an ecological disaster, something preventable if only the oxygen producing life forms would just restrain themselves. Just as then, the problem we face now is not an artificial one. We are part of the ecosystem, taken as a mass we're no more intelligent than the oxygen producing life forms in the previous event. As a mass we just do what we need to in order to survive. There's no guarantee of our survival or any other species on the planet. I'm only comforted by the fact that we might be even harder to kill than the cockroaches most suggest will inherit the planet after we're gone. We may fall back to three forms of life on the planet, us, some yeasts and some algae. (although, there may be a dark horse running in the back of the pack in the form of the jellyfish. we'll be able to have yeast butter and jellyfish sandwiches. )

  12. And on the eigth day ... by PPH · · Score: 1

    ... God created rust.

    --
    Have gnu, will travel.
    1. Re:And on the eigth day ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Wait- rust?

      All these years I've been thanking him for spending the eight creating pr0n...

  13. Re:For the "but it's just a computer model!" troll by grikdog · · Score: 0

    >Whack u upsida hed! Short version, please. Demonstrate how the abstract pin head in question can support that many dancing angels. Try to imagine your audience is U. S. Senator Tom Harkin, Chairman of HELP, and the upshot will be your cut of guvmint grants for 2012.

    --
    ``Tension, apprehension & dissension have begun!'' - Duffy Wyg&, in Alfred Bester's _The Demolished Man_
  14. Please use the correct notation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's "ultraGod."

    "Ultragod" is too easily confused with the GodUI, a buggy framework responsible for the segfault in the Red Sea.

    Things started to improve about 2,000 years ago with the introduction of God On Rails, although this still has reports of Christians with evidence of memory corruption.

  15. If you think humans can't change the earth by rastoboy29 · · Score: 1

    You have only to look at the fairly well accepted theory that plantlife on Earth provided all the oxygen that now exists on it, to realize that living things can indeed change the planet and make in uninhabitable.

    Good thing for us, not so great for lots of anaerobic bacteria that may have been around before.

    1. Re:If you think humans can't change the earth by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Good thing for us, not so great for lots of anaerobic bacteria that may have been around before.

      They should have began protesting, chaining themselves to other bacteria, and shout "we don't want no oxygen ruining the lives of our children".

  16. Full text of article - pdf form by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Here is the full article text: Article

  17. Really!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I keep tellin you fools, I DON'T SWALLOW !!! and definitely not this shit.
    besides that, I don't return favors . . . . EVER!!!

  18. Mushrooms by Mr+Bubble · · Score: 1

    The oxidizing event was the appearance of the mushroom which drifted in from spores floating through space.

    Science Daily Article

    The dates don't really match, but do they ever?

    --
    "The world is a construct of forceful imagination. Those who don't know walk around in the reailties of those who do"
  19. Re:For the "but it's just a computer model!" troll by pinkushun · · Score: 4, Informative

    Wow, the first result is very interesting, and mostly understandable, because the ideas read much like similar programming concepts. And it even contains a car analogy!

    The character ’existence of engine’ is compatible with the tree of Figure 2.1 (a) as the
    motor is invented once in the edge connecting the root and the common ancestor of car and
    motorcycle. The same character is not compatible with the tree in Figure 2.1 (b) where the
    engine is invented twice. The character ’number of wheels’ is compatible with both trees.

  20. Let's get rid of that oxygen by h00manist · · Score: 1

    Let's get rid of all that oxygen! Take all the stuff that came out of the atmosphere over billions of years and solidified underground, and burn it to combine it with the oxygen, convert all that breathable O to CO2. Let's give every human on earth machines to convert large amounts of O into unbreathable CO and CO2.

    --
    Build your own energy sources from scratch. http://otherpower.com/
    1. Re:Let's get rid of that oxygen by morgauxo · · Score: 1

      You mean machines like the computer you typed that on right? The CO2 generated by cars is almost nothing compared to that generated by coal burning electric plants you know...

    2. Re:Let's get rid of that oxygen by h00manist · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Shut down the coal mines. Yes, coal, gas and oil have to go - basically carbon from underground that people burn. Limited resources, causing dispute, war, monopolies, smoke, soot, noise. Nuclear and hydroelectric works just fine, most of NYC trasportation runs on electric power. Millions of people get to work and back every day, fast with no traffic - on electric power. Get PRT and it'll be faster than any car-based system can ever be.

      --
      Build your own energy sources from scratch. http://otherpower.com/
    3. Re:Let's get rid of that oxygen by jbengt · · Score: 1

      My electricity is generated by radioactivity, you insensitive clod.

  21. But Newton wasn't, sorry by Kupfernigk · · Score: 2

    Newton was, for the time, a religious freethinker who as evasive about his views because otherwise he would have been thrown out of Cambridge. Theologians conclude that he was probably a unitarian, and my own thinking when I was studying Newton's beliefs is that Newton defined his idea of God to support his idea of how the Universe worked - Newton's God is basically a "framework God" which supports the idea of a rigid, unbending universal architecture that guarantees his laws of motion. It is at the opposite extreme from the Christian God, who is, in effect, an emotional interferer.

    --
    From scarped cliff or quarried stone she cries "A thousand types are gone, I care for nothing, no not one."
  22. My dear fellow Archeans, by nicomede · · Score: 1

    We have all read those reports about a so-called "environment change" that would be caused by high level of oxygen released in the atmosphere by archean activity. I can tell you that there is no strong evidence that this oxugen level is rising, nor that it is due to us, and that it is dangerous at all ! The groups that try to refrain us from consuming fossil compounds are trying to hinder archean economy! We do not want to hide in caves! Evolution will provide us with new solutions to cope with this hypothetical change. God bless Gaia.

  23. Objectivity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "[...] could be the first biological evidence of the Great Oxidation Event [...]"

    Instead of finding evidence to support a theory, I propose that scientists find a theory that matches the evidence.

    Admittedly, I know very little about the theory of the Great Oxidation Event, but it sounds like the theory existed long before "the first biological evidence" did.

  24. The Creationist's Galileo Moment by arthurpaliden · · Score: 2

    The Creationist's Galileo Moment : Genetics Proves Evolution

    When chicken embryos start to develop they have teeth buds and the beginnings of multi segmented tails. As they develop their DNA tells the developing embryo to absorb them. Much like human embryo's absorb embryonic gill slits. Now if you turn off the genes that control this absorption instruction you get chicken embryos that develop long multi segmented dinosaur tails and meat eating dinosaur teeth complete with the serrated inside edge. Other studies have also been successful in regressing feathers into scales.

    This is not hypothesis. This is not supposition. This is not interpretation. This cold hard, hold in your hands see with your own eyes type reproducible proof. It has already been done, in Canadian universities no less, and is documented and reproducible. One more thing. No DNA was ever added to the bird DNA. This was done using 100% pure chicken DNA.

    They have proved that bird DNA contains genes that create dinosaur characteristics. The only way this can happen is through the evolutionary process.

    So like when Galileo first pointed his telescope at the heavens and learned that Aristotle was wrong modern scientists have pointed their microscopes at developing bird embryos and learned that they are correct. Evolution is real.

    • http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1026340/Jurassic-Park-comes-true-How-scientists-bringing-dinosaurs-life-help-humble-chicken.html
    • http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2009/03/05/dinosaur-chicken.html
    • http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/11/12/60minutes/main5629962.shtml
    • http://www.popsci.com/scitech/article/2009-08/scientist-vows-backwards-engineer-dinosaur-chicken

    Now just to make things easier for Creationists, yes I realize that you prefer to get your education from YouTube U. as I know reading non religious articles is such a chore for you, here are the names and institutions that you can use as starting points for your research. However you must remember to get the best results from your Internet searches do not to include the terms 'Bible, Creationist, Intelligent DesignID,religion,God' in your queries.

    • Raul Cano, professor of microbiology at California Polytechnic State University
    • Jack Horner, professor of palaeontology at Montana State University
    • Hans Larsson, a paleontologist at McGill University in Canada
    • Matt Harris and John Fallon, developmental biologists at the University of Wisconsin
    • Dewey Kramer, at Texas A&M University
  25. Obligatory... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And I for one welcome our new aerobic overlords.

  26. Deciphered! by autophile · · Score: 2

    The introns have also been deciphered:

    AGTTACCATGGGA /* Support new standard RFC -3374, Oxygen as Fuel */ GGCTTCAAA....

    --
    Towards the Singularity.
  27. prokaryotes = minimalism; eukaryotes = surplus by peter303 · · Score: 1

    Prokaryotes tend to have simple, fully coding genomes. They tend to lose any special genes not necessary for the current environment.
    Eukaryotes have large DNAs, some approaching a trillion bases, with up to 99% non-coding junk and lots of duplicated genes. They produce a lot more proteins than simpler microbes. Nikc lane in a letter to Nature a couple months ago suggested the difference was the presence of mitochondiria that gives the luxury of 20x more energy than basic microbes.

  28. The Great Oxidation Event by wealthychef · · Score: 1

    Sounds like a Michael Jackson house party.

    --
    Currently hooked on AMP
  29. "Dollo's Law" by HiThere · · Score: 1

    Actually single mutational events can be retracted. And this does occasionally happen.

    The reason we tend to say that evolution can't be reversed is basically entropy, i.e., the same reason you can't unscramble an egg (if you haven't gotten to the point of turning on the fire).

    I'd say that it was fair to call it an irreversible process except that occasionally single mutational events are reversed exactly. But the process is generally so complex that the chance of this happening is generally extremely slight. And instead you get something like a dolphin or orca instead of a shark.

    Yeah, I'm being picky. I'm a programmer, what did you expect.

    --

    I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.